An idea for a VOTER VERIFIED idea of the voting process.

[CrispyQ]

Here’s my problem with the current system of voting – paper & pen OR electronic. Your vote is Dependant on the trust in:

1) the competency of the people counting the votes; &
2) the integrity of the people counting the votes.

Personally, I don’t trust either! My solution addresses the issues of BOTH problems & is based on an electronic system that is verified by YOU, the voter. Here it is:

When you enter your precinct, you provide appropriate ID that you are a legitimate, registered voter. When verified, you are given an envelope with a random & unique (secret) number printed on it. You vote, which at some point includes entering or scanning your random number, & when you are finished, you get 2 printed copies of your ballot. One copy you place in the envelope & then into the ballot box . The other copy is yours, for your records.

The votes are tallied & within a day or two, all votes are published in a local newspaper and online. All votes are listed under the secret number. You look up YOUR vote & verfiy that it was tallied, and that it was tallied correctly. If not, you have X number of days to contest & must present appropriate ID and YOUR printout of your precinct ballot.

Totals per precinct would also be published, so citizens could verify that the totals were correct & not manipulated.

Doesn’t this seem like a better way? I know that many people advocate voting via absentee ballot. But under the current systems, I still don’t have confidence that my vote will be counted, much less counted correctly. We must have a system where each individual voter can verify that their vote has been tallied & has been tallied correctly.

Please, poke holes in my idea. Let’s discuss a better, viable way to close the ‘loopholes’ in the current voting system.

[Magical]

1. Fantastic Idea....Send it to Bev Harris

A while back I was trying to come up with a bulletproof system for vote counting.

I came to the exact same conclusion as you. It must be voter verified thru a secret number and available online in master data base of vote counts. This is the ONLY way to guarantee your vote is counted correctly in a total vote count.

Only problem I came up with was how to avoid 'non-voters' ballot box stuffing. In other words, how can you prove all the votes are registered voters. Your idea of precinct totals is a pretty good way of overcoming that concern. That is the only weak link...

[CrispyQ]

4. Thanks for your response.

I'm surprised this issue & a solution to it aren't discussed more. We're all concerned with electronic voting, but the old pen & paper method is also fraught with problems.

[Boredtodeath]

10. This simply won't work

Because once a winner is "announced" on election night, no judge will unring that bell.

Also, think back to Palm Beach County, FL and the butterfly ballot. Once the voter left the polling place, no one had any reason to believe the voter claims that they cast their ballot differently than it was being counted.

The verification of the vote MUST occur at the polling place immediately. And no "winners" announced until the paper has confirmed the electronic tally.

[Andy_Stephenson]

11. This is true...

"but the old pen & paper method is also fraught with problems."

We have'nt figured out how to make the current systems work safely why go with more tech?

Votes can be tampered on a far greater scale than can paper ballots using electronics. I will trust my vote to paper thanks.

[Andy_Stephenson]

7. You might want to call votehere...this is their model

Bev will not be on board with this I can say for sure!

If John and Sue Public can not audit the election without a computer programmer or program...It is not the solution.

Sheez :eyes:

[ParanoidPat]

2. It's against the law for you to take a copy of your completed ballot......

.......because you could sell your vote if offered such verification of how you actually voted. :)

[CrispyQ]

3. I didn't realize that.

My idea was that your copy of the ballot would be your proof of how you voted in case your vote was tallied incorrectly. Perhaps the second copy could be kept by the election officials until the time period for voter verification was passed. All the voter would be given is something with their secret number on it.

I'm just throwing out ideas here. It seems that the non-electronic & electronic ways of voting, or more importantly the counting of votes have big possibilities for fraud & incompetence.

[Andy_Stephenson]

5. Dupe

dupe

[Andy_Stephenson]

6. All the voter would be given is something with their secret number on it.

That is the VoteHere model...It still does not assure your vote was counted corectly. Only that 2 numbers match on a computer screen.

The vote here model is not auditable. This whole thing is an audit problem not a computer problem. A ballot left at the poll site as the official record of the election is the first layer of audit.

Don't even get me started on VoteHere. But I am sure we will have someone chime in here endorsing VoteHere...flawed as it is.

As for this statement "It seems that the non-electronic & electronic ways of voting, or more importantly the counting of votes have big possibilities for fraud & incompetence." Paper can be defrauded yes...But I can change a million votes in the central tabulator if I want and noone would ever know. VoteHere's model does not prevent that. Explain how two numbers matching proves your vote was counted as you cast it?

[Junkdrawer]

8. I have an idea: We look to Canada and adopt their system:

Paper ballots that are hand-counted in the presence of scrutineers.

Too slow you say? Last elections most results were reported less than an hour after polls closed.

People, this is not rocket science. Do not drink that Kool Aid. And lest you accuse me of being anti-technology, I have been a computer analyst for the last 30 years.

Computers have many wonderful uses - counting votes is NOT one of them.

[BeFree]

9. Are you suggesting...

That the vote machine just prints a paper ballot designated with your choices marked? And that ballot is hand counted?

Problems: Printer malfunctions, for any one of numerous reasons.
Solution: Lots of printers.

Taking the vote home? I see no reason not too. Just let someone try and buy my vote. I'd damn sure call the cops.

Taking machines totally out of the election is, at this time, the only real solution. Maybe some day machines can be safely used but that day and that kind of machine hasn't yet arrived on the scene.

****88

It doesn't matter how the votes are cast, all that matters is who counts them...

[yodermon]

12. Article in latest Business 2.0

talks about a similar method, a la cryptography. Over the top, IMHO.

http://www.business2.com/b2/web/articles/0,17863,683182,00.html

excerpt:
...
Chaum's system, Votegrity, produces a paper trail too -- except Chaum throws cryptography into the mix, and that changes the equation. With Votegrity, the printer attached to the terminal generates two strips of paper, each of which holds your vote in encrypted form. Overlaid on top of one another and seen through a custom viewfinder, the strips, through some cryptographic voodoo, reveal your choices in plain English. Once you've verified your vote, the strips are separated, you pick one to take home as a receipt, and the bar-code-like image on that strip is stored digitally. When the time comes to tally the votes, the images are decrypted (using a complicated Chaumian mathematical process that's all but tamperproof). Meanwhile, the encoded images are posted on the Web, so that you can go online afterward and confirm that your vote was counted by using a serial number on your strip.

[Andy_Stephenson]

13. I have a novel idea

pen...paper...and a day off to count the votes.

[cidliz2004]

14. I had a similar idea

We go to the voting precinct area bringing our ID. We get a punch card and make our choices much the same way that we used in school with our #2 pencils. When finished we go to a computer and we put the card/ballot in the computer for it to read out. The computer displays our vote on screen. We touch the screen to accept/reject our ballot. When accepted we are given a 2-part receipt, one for us to keep for our records with the names of candidates printed out and our identifying number. We hand in our ballot and the other reciept to seperate tables for 2 seperate counts to be checked against each other to verify vote counts.

All of this can be published in the newspaper when completed so that you can check that your vote was counted and accurate.



Believe me, we are not rocket scientists, there are plenty of ways to make this vote accurate and fair.

[CrispyQ]

15. Yes, the key thing is that the individual voter verifies his/her vote . .

...AFTER leaving the polls and that there is a published tally of all votes so all citizens can verifty the total count if they want. It's the only way to know that your vote was counted, that it was tallied accurately & that the total vote count is accurate & not manipulated.

Thanks for your response.