FL Eyewitness Death Count Close To 400 Now

[midwayer]

More from Michael Edward
Rumor Mill News Agents Forum
8-17-4


What an eye awakening day this was. I thought that I had seen it all having been involved from Viet Nam to the beginning of Desert Storm in my military and civilian law enforcement career, but today I learned about a new part of the shame game.


For those who won,t bother to read all this report, let me spell out the body counts that 6 of us (all retired military and/or law enforcement) went out to confirm today in different areas. These are confirmed bodies in the trucks, restaurant refers, or refer vans, and they are NOT 'missing persons' or animals:

Charlotte Harbor areas - 58 dead as of 5pm today; Fort Myers & the barrier islands - 21 deaths as of 3pm today; Punta Gorda - 275+ deaths and escalating each hour; Desoto County - 36 deaths, expected to increase;

These figures came from our own eyes, medical personnel, various county sheriff's deputies, and eye witnesses or residents from the worst devastated areas. CNN and the rest of the world biased and controlled media are fooling none of us who live here. The current CONFIRMED body count in our 3 county area on the west coast of Florida is near 400 as I write this.


http://www.rense.com/general56/eekk.htm

[JNelson6563]

1. Amazing story

In among the ugly truths, this pretty gem:

We have all found out that there is nothing better than a local community effort. We take shifts getting gas for the generators and for buying food, have organized our own security and damage clean-up teams, and the ladies are cooking up a storm with the charcoal and gas grills. Many of us only barely knew each other a week ago. Now, we have become a community family. There are no more blank faces of shock among any of us. We are strengthening each other and working with one another. There is no segregation or racism among us, and we represent a local community of many different races, nationalities, and colors.


Beautiful. :toast:

Julie

[opihimoimoi]

2. Humanity emerges when the politics leave

[whatelseisnew]

3. What is Rense about? (n/t)

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

8. It's about the most untrustworthy news source on the internet...

Ask yourself honestly how the government could possibly hope to "cover up" 400 civilian deaths. Do you think those casualties wouldn't have families who would be at least mildly curious as to their whereabouts? Do you think that a conspiracy that would involve literally hundreds of EMS workers could possibly be kept quiet for more than a hour or two?

And to what end? Why would the Bush Administration (Jeb or W.) try to cover up the deaths of 400 people when they know full well that the story will eventually come out -- and thus be an even more politically damaging story than if the deaths had been reported in the first place.

Rense makes no Sense. Never did. Never will.

[RivetJoint]

9. Methinks this report

is BS. There is NO substantiating evidence of this ANYWHERE else.

[Dems Will Win]

45. Like the word OIL is never mentioned as the cause of the Iraq War?

Or that Bush delayed an hour at Booker Elementary on 9/11, not 7 minutes???

The families of 9/11 are SUING the SAUDIS because they don't believe or trust the government and the corporatist news, but you want us to trust them on this???????????????????

[Media_Lies_Daily]

15. Ask yourself how a U. S. government continues to hide the true....

...nature of the conflict in the Middle East and the true death toll.

Why would their handling of the aftermath of Charley be any different?

Please tell me when the NeoCon Junta has told the truth about anything at all. Name a subject, ANY subject.

Think about it.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

21. Not the same thing...

Iraq is 15,000 miles away with no Americans except those on the government payroll and the press only getting to see what the government allows them to see.

Bit of a difference between central Florida where the families of 400 people who are "missing" would be raising hell by now. Family members would be beseiging the local police demanding to know what happened. That's simply not happening.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. Yes, it is exactly "the same thing". You forget who controls the press...

...in this country. People probably are asking a lot of questions about missing loved ones, unless they've already been notified and told to stay quiet.

One more point. Unless you live in the affected areas, YOU personally don't have a clue what's happening there, do you?

[TomNickell]

25. No. Not the Same. YOU heard about this report.

Right?

It's not credible that this many deaths could be covered up. There are too many alternate sources of information. Too many independent agencies. Too many forms.

Only -so- many funeral homes in the area.

People would notice. Word would get out.

No, I don't live in Fla. I do have a little bit of Common Sense left, though.

[Junkdrawer]

27. They're not in funeral homes - they're in refrigerated trucks..

"We've never dealt with a mass casualty event, and we're not yet prepared to (verify) or acknowledge the number of fatalities," said Wayne Sallade, director of Charlotte County's emergency management. "Yes, there are fatalities. Yes, there are people in those refrigerated trucks at the temporary morgue, but we're not prepared to say how many. At this point, I'm not sure that I have the accurate number.

http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/news/local/9411262.htm

So we have the director of emergency management saying "mass casualty event"..

Guess what the "official" total for his county is?

Try 4.

[tom_paine]

32. Very Soviet...and this is a legitimate (as legitimate as it gets in the

Empire) source.

Which is it? A "mass casualty event" or 4 dead?

They need refrigerated trucks for 4 DEAD?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. To what "alternate sources of information" are you referring?....

If I remember correctly, telephone, power, and cable lines into and out of the affected areas were cut by Charley. "Word would get out"? Explain to me how this is possible if the police are controlling access to the affected areas?

And to what funeral homes are you referring? What funeral homes are able to operate without power and in some cases, running water? Since there are no operating funeral homes, the bodies are probably being kept in the two refrigerated 18-wheelers pending notification of relatives.

And finally, what definition are you using for "common sense"? Is it one that includes posting borderline insulting remarks in response to the observations of others?

[Bjornsdotter]

50. Friday night on the radio.....

....there were calls coming in from the hardest hit areas of western Florida. Numerous callers stated that there were many dead, some laying the street and severe damage to local hospitals. I think that 19 is a very low number.

The news in the US is very tightly controlled, I think our best chance will be from locals who have been able to take pictures and also when the locals are able to tell their stories online.

Cheers,
Kim

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

49. Same Old, Same Old...

I get a little annoyed with people willing to share "secret" information, they likes of which would certainly get them killed if the conspiracy they claimed really did exist.

If the Bush Administration is "covering up" 400 civilian deaths, they're doing a pretty piss-poor job of it if we're discussing it here on the internet.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. This is the ONLY place it's being discussed. Get it?

[Eloriel]

40. For Mr. RITC Skeptic

See this thread:
Reuters: Morgue in Punta Gorda Refusing to Give Out Number of Dead
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2223814#2223955

And this one:
Something has gone terribly wrong in Florida....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=620221

And esp. this one:
TRUTH about FLORIDA; HUNDREDS MISSING, JEB CHENEYED UP!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2221052
and esp. Post #71 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2221052#2223271

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. Excellent post....thanks!

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

47. Where's the documentation?

All of these are unsubstantiated reports. I'll ask the question again -- how could this adminstration possibly cover up 400 civilian deaths when the families of those people would be raising holy hell wondering where their loved ones are?

Give me a credible one media source that has families and friends of the missing demanding to know their whereabouts.

[Tsiyu]

54. Please Understand

The areas hit no doubt most resemble what you would get if you made a giant weedwacker the size of the hurricane's eye. There are no emergency services in some areas, no one allowed in many areas.

As noted in other threads, Florida has a large transient population. Undocumented migrant workers travel from farm to farm as crops come in. Elderly people make up a good bit of the population( yes, we all know how well the elderly are accounted for in America). Some folks are hiding from the law...there are many ways a death can be insignificant and unannounced.

It is more far fetched to say that in a storm of this magnitude, hitting an area with this high a population density, only 17 people died.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

61. In other words...

you have no documentation.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

68. Where's yours?

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

70. You're the one claiming 400 deaths

Produce 400 cadavers or some evidence as to their existence, or shut the hell up. I can no more "prove" that 400 people didn't die last week than I can prove that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

71. You're the one claiming that there can't possibly be 400 deaths...

...I'm claiming nothing at all.

At least I can point to several previously posted articles discussing 25 morticians, two 18-wheeler refrigerator trucks, numerous eyewitness comments about seeing bodies in various places along the hurrican's path, and the report posted to Rense.com as back-up.

Where's YOUR back-up?

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

75. Last Attempt at Logic

Show me the bodies, all right? Show me anybody who's claiming that their friend, neighbor or family member is missing and unaccounted for. Give me even the slightest shred of proof -- other than demonstrably whack-job websites -- that there are significantly more than the seventeen or so fatalities that have already been reported.

[TomNickell]

73. Use Common Sense. Please.

A death creates a whole web of paperwork, records, events, funerals, death certificate, grieving relatives, etc.

Even Jeb Bush can't just make Floridians disappear without anybody noticing.

And, no, I haven't read all your DU threads. This is just too silly to bother with any further.

Good Bye.

[dbt]

4. If this is even half true, SOMEBODY needs to go to jail!

The portion of the article that refers to "the equipment we need sitting in the deserts (of Iraq)" would be MOST damning to the Boy King, and would certainly account for a media brownout about the death totals.

We all need to start looking around for corroboration on this story. If it is true, Mr. Edwards is going to need somebody watching his back!

:freak:
dbt

[Crazy8s]

5. Time will tell

the truth of this or not. I tend to take it with a large grain of salt. Sooner or later, large numbers of deaths attributed to Charley are going to become public, so what is the point of hiding such information? To look bad later rather than sooner?

I've lived in FL the majority of my life, and I've been through many hurricanes and hurricane scares. Folks do get a little complacent when it comes to these storms and some decide to 'ride them out' and throw hurricane parties. I also think that folks are less prone to evacuate voluntarily when the storm appears to be passing them by. The media loves a train wreck and I'm pretty sure if there are bodies among the rubble, the reporters would be more than willing to disclose the fact and to film it.

As I said, time will tell. Such loses of life will come to light if they are legit.

[Shadder]

Mom lives in Lake County

I talked with her yesterday and she told me that my sister who lives just south of Daytona yesterday morning went to get gas so she could come over and take my Mom to the grocery store. She had to wait in line for 45 min to get to the pumps then when she found out that she could only buy a small amount. I sure don't recall seeing any reports about things like this that the residents are also facing which leads me to think that there is most likely more that we are not being told.

[Birthmark]

10. Yeah, the gas situation here is appalling

Apparently, I don't live too far from your sister, and I can tell you that it is a zoo scene trying to get gas in Volusia County. Ice has been impossible to get for most people, too. Fortunately, my lights came back on last night.

[DoYouEverWonder]

11. AAA is refusing to send tow trucks

They told me on Sunday that they have suspended all towing operations because of the lack of gas.

[Birthmark]

12. I didn't know that.

It doesn't surprise me, though. What I wonder is what became of all the gas that was headed for FL if we *didn't* have a hurricane? Did those trucks fall into the Bermuda Triangle? Were they routed elsewhere? Where the hell IS that gas?

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. The bigger problem for gas stations is electric

the pumps don't pump, if you don't have electric.

As for AAA, I'm ripping up my membership card and looking for another road service company.

[0007]

6. This story should be put out far and wide...

More.....

"Considering most of the trained and experienced personnel and modern equipment from the Florida National Guard are now in the Middle East, JEB THE BUSH dared to send us antiquated equipment that broke down on I-75 driven by untrained personnel who have no idea what to do. Worse is that there were no water purification trucks (erdilators) sent, just old water tankers and old communications and storage trailers. It was a circus show and a true military cluster puck. There is no Florida National Guard... all the necessary equipment we need is sitting in Iraq or Kuwait right now.........some explaining needs to be done to the folks of Florida.

[ixion]

14. having seen the trucks with old generators broken down on I-75

I can fully coroborate that.

[0007]

63. This is beyond the pale. The media must open up on Jeff

and his stupid brother.

[rullery]

7. Mass graves for the dead?

What's going on here? Why are the news media reporting only 17 dead, instead of the hundreds given by eyewitnesses? Do Bush and Bush think it is politically inexpedient to reveal the true death toll? Are they planning to hide the deaths using mass graves, like Saddam did in Iraq? Let the TRUTH come out! Then watch a landslide election for KERRY!

[Divernan]

13. Total number/percentage of Florida National Guard in Iraq?

I may well have missed this information somewhere on DU, but I would sure like to see some hard numbers in the forms of columns for each and every state detailing total number of each state's national guard, and how many from each state are currently out of their home state - whether in Iraq or on assignment elsewhere - and therefore unavailable to respond to emergencies in their home states.

For example, I have heard that my state of Pennsylvania has the second largest total number of National Guardsmen(women), but I don't know what that actual number is, or how many are currently deployed outside of Pennsylvania.

[Cooley Hurd]

16. Twice last night, on ABC News, survivors said they had a 1 hr...

...evac notice. This was in Port Charlotte & Punta Gorda. That, coupled with the number of older, more flimsy mobile homes (1960-1970 vintage) in the lower-income retirement communities in Punta Gorda, lead me to believe that the unofficial death tolls might be closer to correct than the official numbers... :(

[Moderator]

18. Source and article not LBN

Moving

[NewJeffCT]

19. Rense is not reputable - but...

But, I've heard the 400 dead from other places as well.

[Soloflecks]

20. Proof there's more than 15 dead.

Twice on the nooze a reporter on the scene in Punta Gorda said the Mayor had requested 60 body bags and 2 refrigerated trucks. And that was early Saturday before they could even get into some of these areas to see the casualties.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

22. Proof that they anticipated more casualties

Purchasing extra body bags indicates that authorities planned for more casualties. It doesn't mean that they happened.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

26. You're simply in a state of denial, aren't you?...

If deaths were believed to be very low, why were "two refrigerated 18-wheel trucks" requested "to serve as mobile morgues"? From another article in this thread, why were 25 morticians brought in with the refrigerated trucks? One doesn't make these requests in a vacuum...there have to be solid justifications for doing so.


<http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20040815/topstories/122060.shtml>

Excerpt:

Wayne Sallade, the county's director of emergency management, reported as many as 10 deaths, but no exact death toll was available. He also said hundreds of people were unaccounted for, but state officials said it was impossible to estimate the number of missing.

"We believe there's significant loss of life," Sallade said, adding later: "I would hope that it would be limited to dozens, if that."

He said "thousands upon thousands of people" lost their homes.

County officials parked two refrigerated 18-wheel trucks along the Peace River to serve as mobile morgues.

[ewagner]

23. Silence generates rumors

This story may be pure BS, but it is the silence of the coroners and emergency management people that leads to this kind of speculation.

Last night there was a thread here sourced to Reuters which quoted the coroner managing the refrigerated morgue vans as saying there were bodies in the vans but he wouldn't and couldn't give exact numbers. That was the worst possible thing for him to say. It's important to know WHY he can't say anything. It's important to know WHO ordered him not to say anything.

Until credible sources release verifiable information, articles like this will persist.

[gasperc]

28. wow, well above the 19 confirmed by CNN this morning

what's the fucking truth

[apnu]

30. heh... you beat me by a minute.

heard the same thing on C-SPAN.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. "Truth" and "CNN" are continents apart.

[apnu]

29. This is such a weird story...

... on C-SPAN's Washington Journal this morning they read a bit from the WaPo (I don't remember who) which said that the death toll from Charlie was 19! A far cry from the near 400 mentioned here.

This is very weird indeed, what would motivate them to drastically reduce the numbers?

[lil-petunia]

35. Jeba the Bush

Star Wars ain't seen nuttin yet.

[Eurobabe]

36. counting the deaths like they do in Iraq

19 may have died instantly, but if they died an hour later? They don't count.

[apnu]

38. But that doesn't explain the motivation for low numbers

I would think they would report the numbers as they are then run around consoling the families and what not. Get the 'families of Charlie' on their side like the 'families of 9/11' aren't on Bush's side. (For the record they aren't on anybody's side, and rightly so)

Maybe they keep the numbers low because Chimpy and his Dumbasses can't explain a natural disaster because the word 'terrist' doesn't fit in.

I think the real explanation is that Jeb screwed the pooch big time on this, and the 19 deaths are part of damage control. He knows he's hanging on by a thread down there. Had to rig the 2002 election just to get buy. What a punk Jeb is.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. "What would motivate them to drastically reduce the numbers?"....

Politics...pure, unadulterated politics.

For anyone that's lived any length of time along the Gulf Coast, they know that trying to predict the exact path of a hurricane is next to impossible. When Charley got within striking distance of the Florida Gulf Coast, EVERY single person living in low-lying coastal areas should have been given a MANDATORY ORDER to leave. Jebbie FAILED to order the evacuation of the Florida coastline south of the Tampa-St Pete area, and THAT is going to be a major point of discussion somewhere down the road.

Some will try to tell you that emergency services failed to issue that order because it's their responsibility to do so. But the bottom line is that the governor is ultimately responsible for the welfare of the people of his state.

By the way, FratBoy was in Florida covering for Jebbie as much as he was being there to be politically visible.

[apnu]

39. that was my suspecion...

...damage control from a bit of old Jeb screwing the pooch.

[ewagner]

44. Something to remember

A couple of years ago, a hurricane apprached Florida and a massive evacuation took place causing traffic jams and a lot of personal hardships. Florida officials took a lot of heat for that and I think JEB was trying to minimize the evacuation order to minimize possible criticism if the storm had veered AWAY from Florida.

Comments?

[Junkdrawer]

46. Yep. Said something similar yesterday...

Last Thursday and Friday officials met somewhere and decisions were made. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that cautious emergency professionals recommended a much wider evacuation.

The pros knew full well the margin of error. The Weather Channel's expert on Thursday night was emphasizing that when a hurricane hits the shore diagonally, the margin of error is great.

But someone looked at the political cost of a wide evacuation of elderly poor - especially when most would be evacuated for no reason. And a much-smaller-than-recommended evacuation was ordered.

Is there any wonder someone wants the casualty figures kept down?

[ewagner]

48. Glad someone remembers also

and thanks for giving a truly plausible explanation why they would want to keep the casualty figures down.

I'd love to see the minutes from that meeting!

[Junkdrawer]

53. Love to see the minutes too. And if the numbers really were 400+, we would

As is is now, it looks like most of the victims in the temporary morgues will be listed as "natural causes".

[Eloriel]

42. Oh, please

You don't think huge loss of life is a political liability for Jeb?

[NashVegas]

34. One Way to Find Out

Check the newspaper obituaries.

[leftofthedial]

43. nothing to see here. move along

most of these people died of natural causes or humvee accidents, er traffic accidents . . .


just because they died *during* the hurricane doesn't mean they died *in* the hurricane.

[IdaBriggs]

51. Normal Mortality...?

My sister-in-law's parents live on Punta Gurdo (whatever). By sheerest coincidence they were in Michigan on Friday, but have headed home. Their trailer is missing part of the roof; an elderly aunt had her home destroyed. Most of the residents of the trailer park are snowbirds (according to my brother) and were out of state at the time. My husband's grandfather is another one. Anyway, my brother pointed out that "normal" mortality rates may also be blame for death counts (and could account for refrigerated morgue trucks). And, I hate to say this because its gross, but "bodies in the street" -- cemetery problems? Shudder!

[patcox2]

56. I was just thinking normal mortality. I bet it would be in the hundreds

Think about it, a population of about 1 million was affected, normal mortality would probably be several hundred over a few days. Rough calculation, assume a lifespan of 80 years, that means something like 12,000 per year die, thats more than 30 per day, and the population there is inordinately senior citizen. If funeral homes are shut down, the next of kin are unavailable, in a shelter or haven't come back yet, there are going to be a lot of delayed funerals. They would have to start storing bodies, and they would be in the hundreds.

Funny when you think of it, if there were 20 deaths from the hurricane, that means that a cat 4 hurricane coming through only increases the natural death rate by 50%.

Explains why public officials would have difficulty answering the question of how many hurricabne deaths there were, if the number of hurricane deaths was less than the average daily number of natural deaths; they may know how many bodies they have, but they don't know how many are hurricane related.

Contrast it with the French heat wave last summer, where I am sure they counted everyone who died as dying of the heat, regardless that they were 100 years old and ailing, to come up with those stats about tens of thousands.

[Junkdrawer]

60. Yeah. And if you happen across a devastated trailer park with bodies..

everywhere, who's to say they didn't die of natural causes. Hurricanes are natural, aren't they?

[patcox2]

62. Show me a report of bodies lying around.

Anywhere but rense.

[Junkdrawer]

64. There were numerous reports of "bodies stacked like cordwood"...

Found this on Fox...

PUNTA GORDA, Fla. — The death toll from Hurricane Charley (search) rose early Saturday, when a county official said there had a been "significant loss of life" at a mobile home park and deputies were standing guard over stacks of bodies because the area was inaccessible to ambulances.

Wayne Sallade, Charlotte County (search)'s director of emergency management, said early Saturday that there were "a number of fatalities" at the mobile home park, and that there were confirmed deaths in at least three other areas in the county............

...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128885,00.html

[Junkdrawer]

65. Here's another...

200 FEARED DEAD AS ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE Aug 15 2004

AT LEAST 200 people were feared dead last night after Hurricane Charley left Florida looking like a war zone with streets "littered with bodies".

Around 60 people were crushed to death at a trailer park after 170mph whirlwinds flattened homes like dominoes.

Meanwhile, hundreds were still missing, thousands homeless and over a million homes left without power while emergency crews struggled to reach the dead and injured.

...

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14532339&method=full&siteid=106694&headline=200-feared-dead-as-all-hell-breaks-loose-name_page.html

[Junkdrawer]

66. Here's a local video report...

"2 mile long line of ambulences"...

http://wjz.com/topstories/topstories_story_224093855.html

Click on: Lou Young reports numerous casualties have been reported in Punta Gorda, Fla.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

69. Nicely done. Three good sources....thanks!

[PatriotGames]

52. Why in the world would someone do that?

And how would they cover it up?

[Tsiyu]

55. Kick

:kick:

[LeftHander]

57. This could be true....remember the Hurricane Mitch disaster...

Thousands of people were killed in Honduras when Hurricane Mitch struck the Yucatan penninsula. There homes made of ramshackle tin and primitive materials were completly destroyed. 10,000 killed in Honduras, 3800 in Nicaragua. How many mobile homes are in west central Florida?


http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/mitch.html

[underseasurveyor]

59. In the wee hours of the morning on CBS up to the Minute

What's her name, Mellisa McDermott (I think that's her name) reported that the officail death toll at that time was 19. Then she added, With numbers expected to rise into the hundreds.

Rense isn't completely un-credible. They recieve and post all kinds of news reports from many different sources. Ya just have to weed through them carefully.

[cthrumatrix]

67. there appears to be MORE eye witness accounts sharing the higher toll

[TomNickell]

72. What a Crock! Use some common sense, folks.

Floridians have families, churches, obiturary columns, inheritances, death certificates, life insurance, pre-paid burial plans.

400 Floridians have just disappeared and nobody but this clown has noticed?

Get Real.

[Junkdrawer]

74. Yeah Tom, we're being lied to...Yeah Tom, it is obvious...

and the most frightening part of all is that it appears they will get away with it.

For example, the trailer park in Punta Gorda. Official obits show 2 deaths:

http://www.sun-herald.com/NewsArchive2/081804/tp26ch26.htm?date=081804&story=tp26ch26.htm

While numerous reports have deputies guarding "stacks of bodies":

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128885,00.html

And this report has 60 dead:

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=14532339&method=full&siteid=106694&headline=200-feared-dead-as-all-hell-breaks-loose-name_page.html

Now, how will they do that?

Well, all the bodies are going into a refrigerated truck and, over time, they could be added into the normal, daily deaths of a region heavily skewed with the elderly.

But yeah Tom, if they really try to get away with this, it should be easy to catch them. I mean, it won't be credible to have large numbers of trailer park residents die of natural causes around the same time of Hurricane Charley.

So Jeb: it's decision time. Keep up the lie or come clean in the next day or two. Otherwise, you'll have one big honking lie to keep quiet.