Ted Rall rips Kerry

[masshole]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/uclickcomics/20040803/cx_tr_uc/tr20040803

Sorry for the yahoo link, I don't have anywhere to host the pic.

[aquart]

1. He rips someone.

Doesn't much resemble Kerry to me.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

56. I agree. Excellent first response to this BS. eom

[buycitgo]

2. ouch.....don't think most here will go for this

[WindRavenX]

22. wow, that's sure some quality art

:eyes:
More nonsense from simple minded freepers.

[HopeArrival]

42. Rall is now a freeper?

When did he make the switch?

[formernaderite]

51. Ted Rall is NO Freeper....

...he usually skewers the right....sadly this cartoon is on the mark. What most of you didn't watch the convention? It was a military lovefest with enough patriotic rah-rah flag waving hoo-hah to make a freeper weep.

[Suziq]

71. Military Love-Fest because . . .

The convention was a military love-fest only because the Pukes keep trashing him for his military service (and subsequent protesting).

:hippie:

[sangh0]

73. If Rall had a good point

then why did he have to lie, and imply that Kerry called the VietNamese "slopes"?

[formernaderite]

176. It's a cartoon! It's satire! geez.....

They're not meant to be verbatim....or entirely accurate, they're someone's instant perspective offered in a condensed graphic.

[sangh0]

189. So lying and ethnic slurs are OK?

How "progressive"

"It's satire" is what the Repukes say when we complain about Coulter making remarks like "Kill all the men and convert the women to Christianity"

[loveable liberal]

3. who is ted rall?

[UdoKier]

7. He is a talented comic artist, spiraling into a pit of assholishness.

It really started when he did a comic about what an idiot Pat Tillman was for giving up his football career to die in Afghanistan. Even most of the leftiest lefties were appalled. Ever since then, he seems determined to outdo himself in the area of offending almost everyone.

He also writes columns, I forget for whom.

During the height of the buildup to Iraq, I thought he was pretty good, but I guess it was just opposition to a filthy war that made us bedfellows...

[Elginoid]

53. actually, he's a very comitted leftist-

who holds true to his ideals, even as other fair-weather leftists bow to the gods of political-correctedness.

you GO Ted!!!

[UdoKier]

68. So if you don't trash dead men who died for a less-than perfect cause...

You're a "fair-weather leftist"? Wow.

Gee, not that you put it that way I realize that I was wron all along and that Pat Tillman was just another scumbag freeper who deserved what he got. NOT!

[lojasmo]

64. Bullshit

The leftiest lefties are true conscientious objectors, and agree with Rall about the horror of war.

Rall is anti-war, and will call millitaristic propaganda the crap that it is, whether it's being spewed by a Democrat or a Repug.

I don't think Kerry's service in vietnam is anything for him to be proud of, or to be using as a political tool. Rall is dead-on here.

[UdoKier]

70. Why do you have to trash dead men to abhor war?

Not to mention the fact that he ascribed jingoistic attitudes and bigotry to Tillman without having ANY idea of what Tillman actually thought.

I will grant that Kerry has played up his service a bit more than I would have preferred, but he did serve honestly when he believed in the cause, then protested the war when he learned more about it. Both actions are honorable IMO. Most of us here are not such die-hard pacifists that we think there is NEVER a reason for military action, but we do expect a damn good one. Afghanistan came close enough after 9-11 to satisfying that requirement, Iraq came nowhere close - thus the huge disparity in the size of protests for the respective wars.

The Kerry comic isn't nearly as ofensive as the Tillman one, but it is non-constructive and not especially amusing. I'm sure Rall is one of those people who believe that 4 years of Kerry would be identical to 4 more years of Bush. I am not one of those people, and thus will tend to bristle against anything designed to help keep Bush in office, like this comic.

[UdoKier]

82. Also, I've never seen any indication that Kerry thinks of the Vietnamese..

...as "gooks" and "zipperheads".

For all you or Rall know, Kerry is a total pacifist on the inside but packages himself as a "warrior with wisdom" in order to be politically viable. The leftist puritans can preach all they like, but at this point in history, we all know that the US will not go for a true pacifist candidate. One thing I do firmly believe is this: NONE of the democratic candidates, and not many republicans would have started the Iraq war based on the info Bush had at the time. Sure the republicans fell in line behind their prez when he concocted the war, but I really don't think a Bob Dole or even a Pat Buchanan would have come up with such an ill-advised war.

Well, anyway, I suppose being pure in heart and mind lets Rall and his ilk sleep soundly at night (while warmongers like Bush get re-elected). Enjoy your clean conscience.

[lojasmo]

171. SO you imply that Kerry is a liar. That's admirable.

[sangh0]

191. Meanwhile, you let Rall's lies and ethnic slurs go unmentioned

Now *THAT'S* admirable

[lojasmo]

224. Ethnic slurs? paff. (expression of derision) N/T

[sangh0]

225. Since when are "gooks" and "slopes" NOT ethnic slurs?

Or has it been approved by the "progressives"?

[UdoKier]

203. I imply no such thing.

I want to be a millionaire, but I gladly take a job that pays $30K per year, because that is what I can get for now. Does that make me a liar?

[lojasmo]

169. absolutely not designed to keep bush in office

designed to shed light on kerry's pandering ways. I doubt it will sway anybody one way or the other. Most undecideds won't read rall anyway.

[CaTeacher]

212. YES!!!

As a peace activist, I applaud what you said lojasmo! And I agree 100%.

I have seen the footage of Kerry admitting that he burned down the villages of innocent Vietnamese during the war. It makes me physically nauseous when he even mentions his military service. I do NOT think this is something for him to be proud of.

It is a good thing that Kerry is the Democratic candidate--if a repug had the exact same background, I would be saying that they should be tried for their war crimes. (yes it is a double standard--but so what)

WE NEED PEACE--NOT WAR!!!!

[Used and Abused]

133. Kind of reminds me of Bill Maher

Bill Maher was cool as hell (still is) but every now and then he slips off into wtf-land.

[Uzybone]

173. wrote a column advising the contenders to drop out for Dean

last year when Dean was riding high. He is that kind of "liberal".

[UdoKier]

207. Which is funny, since even Dean wasn't PURE anti-war...

He would've supported an invasion with a real coalition after inspections were over. He has said so unequivocally.

The PURE candidates, Kucinich and Nader are not viable. At least Kucinich sees the wisdom of electing a "less evil" government than the present one in the cause of eventually bringing about a good one. Nader (and apparently Rall) is on such an ego trip that he couldn't care less who dies in the interim between now and the eventual people's utopia he wants to bring about.

[Democat]

4. You don't have to host the pic, you can just link it from Yahoo like this

Not very funny to see Ted Roll making comics that appear to be a direct illustration of Republican talking points.

Maybe he can get a job with the Nader campaign, if he doesn't already have one.

[masshole]

6. how'd you do that?

I am a bit of a dolt when it comes to forum posting (among other things).

[Democat]

8. On DU, you can do it like this...

Just paste in the exact url of the image, the DU forum will do the rest.

You linked to the HTML page, if you would have put the link to the image itself, instead of the HTML page, it would have showed the image.

You can right click on the image and look at "Properties" in IE to get the image URL.

If you need more help with it, just say so. Plenty of people around here are happy to help!

Thanks for the post about it too. :)

[masshole]

14. thank you!

I be a learnin!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

9. Well, Kerry does parade his medals a lot.

How do you figure it's a Republican talking point?

[Dookus]

13. because the republican talking point

is that he uses his service purely to score political points. It's also a Repub talking point that he flip-flops on important issues to serve himself.

I find it hard to believe any thinking person can't spot those immediately.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Thinking person's can spot the hypocrisy of being a "hero"

At one time he joined other vets and denounced the war he had participated in. Pretty hard to square that with now bragging about having been a "hero" in the same war.

I have no idea why he changed his tune now, but I damned sure wish he'd return to the idealism of his younger days and denounce as vigorously the war he voted for.

I'm holding my nose and voting for him, but he's far from the man he was in the '70s.

[JI7]

27. he STILL denounces that war

one of the biggest points he makes is that the problem was with the policymakers at the top. he compares the ones during vietnam to those in the top now.

the point is that it's the policymakers not the ground soldiers who are the biggest problem. but the far left seem to want to blame the soldiers instead.

[sangh0]

74. Repukes equate "the troops" with "the leaders"

in order quash dissent, and bandera has the same problem distinguishing between criticizing the leaders and criticizing the troops.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

79. So, the troops are above criticism?

You mean like the "troops" at abu-Ghraib or the the ones at My-Lai?

[sangh0]

84. Now bandera makes use of a straw man

I never said that "the troops are above criticism", but that doesn't stop bandera from responding as if I did.

Instead of defending his claim that it's a contradiction to criticize the leaders while praising the troops, he has instead chosen to attack my credibility by implying I hold an opinion I've never expressed.

[progressivebydesign]

17. Because Kerry did not commit atrocities in Vietnam, perhaps?

He witnessed them, and that is why he was against the war when he returned. He saw too many atrocities, and saw too many soldiers dying over there. Rall used to be interesting, but he's gotten so awful these past few months. I hope Rall loves George Bush.. cuz he's helping that loser out when he does shit like this.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. Kerry volunteered to go kill people in Vietnam.

And, when he came back, he fought against the war. Now, he's done a turnaround and parades his medals. The ones he was supposed to have thrown over the White House fence. Now he's talking about strengthening the bloated military he once demonstrated against.

Hypocrisy.

I'm voting for him to get rid of the ultimate hypocrite stinking up the white house, but I don't have to like him.

[JI7]

28. more repeating right wing talking points from the far left

[GreenArrow]

46. nah,

an independent minded voter coming to his own conclusions.

[sangh0]

75. No, he is repeating RNC talking points

Now, he's done a turnaround and parades his medals. The ones he was supposed to have thrown over the White House fence.

That's straight out of the RNC's playbook

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

77. That's straight out of the news.

The reason that the RNC's using it is because he's made himself vulnerable by trying to be a "hero" to the right and an anti-war "hero" to the left.

[sangh0]

85. The news repeats the RNC propoganda

and you use the corporate media to corroborate RNC lies.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

87. Are you saying he didn't throw medals over the fence?

Where is the "lie"?

[sangh0]

116. No, he did not throw his medals over the fence

he threw his ribbons. Funny how you look for the facts AFTER repeating the media's RNC lies

[GreenArrow]

86. So, there was no incident where Kerry threw medals

(his own or someone elses) over a fence? That didn't happen?

[sangh0]

119. No, there was no such incident

Kerry threw his ribbons, not medals, over the fence. Maybe someday, you can determine the facts BEFORE making an assertion. Remember, the RNC depends on ignorance

[GreenArrow]

128. ah, the devil is in the details...

So there was no incident where Kerry threw ribbons (his own or someone else's) over a wall?

Straining gnats and swallowing camels.

[redqueen]

135. No, proving points about those who spew rightwing talking points

in an effort to shine their leftist purity medals.

[GreenArrow]

156. again,

There was no incident in which Kerry threw his "ribbons" over a fence? It never happened? There were no mentions of it or disccusions of it on this board, long before Kerry was even the nominee?

If the RNC is using the incident to its advantage, it's only to be expected; after all, it's political reality isn't it. There is no shortage of reminders of political reality and pragmatism around here. But it's fundamentally disengenous to suggest that anyone who has a problem with the apparent discrepancy between Kerry's behaviour and rhetoric 30 years ago and today is following right wing talking points. Evidentally, people are incapable of reaching their own decisions independently of the two major parties.

[sangh0]

160. You are changing your story

Funny how your story changes without any explanation or acknowledgement that you made a mistake. You're not the only one who denies ever making a mistake.

[GreenArrow]

192. there was no change in the story

other than using your preferred word "ribbons." I changed it to reflect the information that you gave me. And I thought you'd be glad.

:(

[sangh0]

196. You changed your story

as demonstrated by your change from medals to ribbons, and while you claim "there's no difference" (not the first time I've heard that) you also seem to have kept some old links on file.

I changed it to reflect the information that you gave me.

IOW, you changed the story, but you didn't change the story

[GreenArrow]

202. I would guess that in the average person's mind

medals and ribbons are roughly synonmous. Since you tell me there is a difference, I used your term. Other than that, there was no change. The act, whether dealing with ribbons or medals, in juxtaposition to his current stand on Iraq is the issue.

[sangh0]

204. I would guess that in the average person's mind

changing a story does not mean you didn't change the story.

And the issue is "Why do you keep repeating RNC propoganda?"

[sangh0]

137. No, in this case, the devil is in the distortions

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know why the distinction between medals and ribbons is important because you'd know how the RNC has distorted the facts to slander Kerry.

IOW, yes it's a detail, but it's not an insignificant detail. It's the RNC that hopes people remain ignorant to the significance of this detail

[sangh0]

139. And here's the significance

This part of the debate resulted from a post which made the following false claim

And, when he came back, he fought against the war. Now, he's done a turnaround and parades his medals. The ones he was supposed to have thrown over the White House fence.

Kerry has never paraded his ribbons, which he threw over the fence. He has paraded his medals, which he was proud of, so there is no contradiction. He did not throw his medals away in shame, only to brag about them later. He has always been proud of his medals, he kept them, and has pointed to them with pride because they were awarded for his honorable service.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

184. And, here's the "significance" between medals and ribbons.

Zip. Nada. None. The ribbon only signifies the medal. Kind of like the difference between a five dollar bill and five one dollar bills. In effect he threw his "medals" over the fence when he threw his "ribbons" over the fence.

Get real. He's pointing to his medals/ribbons to convince people that he's "strong on defense". Which he's goint to great lengths to do. Just as he did when he voted for the war and continues to support the occupation.

We can only hope that it's "just politics" rather than his core beliefs - you know, the ones he stated in 1972.

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

216. You're hilarious.

What in the hell are you talking about? A ribbon signifies the medal. They are NOT separate. Kerry didn't get a Silver Star Medal for valor AND a Silver Star Ribbon for the same event. Or, are you only pretending to not understand? Let my try, yet again, to explain. Imagine that you have $100 in the bank. You pay for something worth $100. with a check. Now, the check isn't REALLY cash, but it signifies cash.

Now tell me you still don't get it.

[sangh0]

217. A ribbon is not a medal

It's a pretty simple concept. To use your analogy, if someone burns the check before it's cashed, the money still exists.

They're not the same. There is a difference

I we are still waiting for you explanation of how there's a contradiction. For some odd reason, you jump to another point whenever I ask you about this.

[vincent_vega_lives]

223. Re: Medals/Ribbons...same thing...sorry.

The decoration is a medal attached to the uniform by a ribbon. For convenience you only wear a piece of the ribbon on the uniform. The ribbon represents the decoration.

Kerry throwing his "ribbons" in the river, over the fence, whatever, signifies his refusal to acknowledge his decorations.

[sangh0]

226. Yes, that was a sorry excuse for an argument

but ribbons are not medals

[GreenArrow]

182. it's trivia, it's parsing

it's debating what the meaning of is is. It's a totally insignificant detail. It's a strawman.

But for what it's worth:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Investigation/kerry_vietnam_medals_040425-1.html

"I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine medals," Kerry said in an interview on a Washington, D.C., news program on WRC-TV called Viewpoints on Nov. 6, 1971, according to a tape obtained by ABCNEWS.

Throughout his presidential campaign, Kerry has denied that he threw away any of his medals during an anti-war protest in April 1971.

Calling it a "phony controversy" instigated by the Republican party, Kerry said on Good Morning America today that he has always accurately said what took place. "I threw my ribbons. I didn't have my medals. It is very simple."

He also said he — and the military — didn't make a distinction between medals and ribbons. "We threw away the symbols of what our country gave us for what we had gone through," he said.

And in an interview with ABCNEWS' Peter Jennings last December, he said it was a "myth."

But Kerry told a much different story on Viewpoints. Asked about the anti-war veterans who threw their medals away, Kerry said "they decided to give them back to their country."

Kerry was asked if he gave back the Bronze Star, Silver Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for combat duty as a Navy lieutenant in Vietnam. "Well, and above that, gave back the others," he said.

<snip>


So, I ask again, did Kerry, or did Kerry not throw some military awards (of one type or another) over a fence? And if so, does that action conflict with what many voters today, of both parties, consider to be his support of the Iraq war?

Frankly, if he did threw his ribbons, or medals, or whatever, I would probably be more likely to vote for him.

If he threw someone elses, and pretended they were his own, I would view him with cyncism.

ANd if he threw them, and then took questionable positions on another unjust war 30 years after the events in question, I would defintely not view him positively. And the RNC ain't got nuthin to do with it.

[sangh0]

193. No,

it's a right-wing lie, one you are willing to repeat.

And it's odd that you have kept this link on file while intentionally not distinguishing between medals and ribbons. You know there's a difference, yet you have repeatedly acted as if you don't know there's a difference

[GreenArrow]

194. to quote John Kerry

calling it a lie doesn't make it so.

[sangh0]

199. Kerry didn't say that

He said "REPEATING a lie doesn't make it so"

Oh, the irony!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

205. There is NO difference.

Please explain the "difference" you claim there is. Your argument is, to be polite, wrong.

[sangh0]

208. A medal is not a ribbon

.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

215. Yeah. And the label on a can of tuna isn't tuna.

But it signifies what's in the can. The straw that you're grasping is getting weaker.

[sangh0]

218. Right, the lable isn't the can

and the ribbon isn't the medal.

So why say Kerry threw the medals, when he threw the ribbons?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

220. Because there is NO damned difference.

Ok, he threw his ribbons, which signifies the medals. Please continue your incrdible knack for denying the obvious. Or, do you demand that the merchant you purchase the tuna from open the can to prove to you that it contains tuna?

[sangh0]

227. Yes, there is a difference

.

[sangh0]

228. And you still haven't explained the contradiction

between honoring the troops service and criticizing the leaders.

[GreenArrow]

183. was there, or wasn't there?

Contradicting his statements as a candidate for president, Sen. John Kerry claimed in a 1971 television interview that he threw away as many as nine of his combat medals to protest the war in Vietnam.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Investigation/kerry_vietnam_medals_040425-1.html

[sangh0]

201. Not true

and quotes taken out of context only persuade the gullible.

[Elginoid]

54. complete agreement here.

this is the first time in my voting life that I'll be casting a vote against a candidate, rather than for a candidate.

[JohnLocke]

76. Not hypocrisy. Courage.

Probably something youi can't understand.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

89. Well, why don't you explain it to me.

Kerry volunteered to go to Vietnam in February, 1968. By that time, millions of people around the world were marching against the war and it had been exposed for what it was. An immoral massacre of people in the name of "anti-communism". By that time, thousands of courageous Americans were burning their draft cards or fleeing to Canada rather than kill people. Others, were outright refusing to go to Vietnam and went to prison instead.

Perhaps, Kerry was hoodwinked like so many others were, and saw service in Vietnam as his patriotic duty. I tend to believe that, but question why such a well educated man should be so ignorant.

When he returned from Vietnam, and saw what was going on there, he turned against the war and spoke out against it, as did many other vets.

Now, he boasts of his military experience in Vietnam as if it were something to be proud of.

Perhaps you don't can't understand the meaning of hypocrisy.

[sangh0]

141. Perhaps you don't can't understand the meaning of hypocrisy.

After all, you have yet to explain how any of those actions contradict each other. Kerry believes that the troops should be honored for their service, and the military and political leadership should be criticized for their misjudgements and lies.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

178. Honored? Screw honored. Bring them home.

So, when does the criticism begin. As I recall, Kerry said in his statement justifying his vote for the war that he would be the "first to speak out". Still waiting.

[sangh0]

210. Avoiding the question?

You claimed a contradiction, and when I ask you to describe it, you took a powder and tried to change the subject to a pullout from Iraq. Why won't you defend your claim?

What is the contradiction of criticizing the leaders while praising the troops?

Still waiting

[progressivebydesign]

187. So the people that signed up for Iraq, believing there was a threat..

.. and went over there, killed people, found it it wasn't a threat and they were duped.. they're worthy of your scorn, also?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

214. Nope. And, I didn't say that.

What I said was that Kerry volunteered to go to Vietnam and kill people. I hope that he was duped. But, he certainly can't plead ignorance of what he was going there to do. That he came back and protested the war, along with a lot of other vets (many with medals of their own) is admirable.

That he NOW parades those same medals that he received for participating in that same war that he protested, and scorned, is hypocrisy.

I understand why he's doing it. To sway the mythical moderates to vote for him because being one of us glorified veterans is supposed to prove that he's "tough on defense" and will tackle the "terrorists". The problem is, that by doing so, he's going to be compelled to prove it. Just like LBJ tried to prove he was "tough on Communism" with the Gulf of Tonkin bullshit.

It's a corner I don't want to see him in.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

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[WoodrowFan]

94. another RW talking point

he QUOTED the earlier testimony of OTHER vets talking about what THEY had done, not what he had seen or done himself.

[trag]

5. Rated that one.

Gave it a one out of five.

[Cat Atomic]

10. I think that's an interesting point, actually.

But I guess that's the reality of politics. Kerry returned from Vietnam and was very much against the war. A very noble position.

But then, decades later, his presidential campaign is built upon his Vietnam veteran, war hero status. It is strange, when you think of it that way.

[JI7]

15. his problem was the policymakers at the top, not soldiers on the ground

that's something the right wingers and the far left don't seem to understand or care about.

when he was talking about the war crimes taking place he was taking issue with what those on the top were allowing it to happen. with the policy itself which was made by many who were civilians.

[JustinF]

36. Kerry DID commit war crimes

By his own admission. Cockburn and St. Clair wrote about it in Counterpunch a while back.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07292004.html

Look, just because someone says something bad about Kerry doesn't make them a "freeper" or some other slander. Kerry is highly flawed both as a person and a candidate, and even if you support him there's no reason not to be honest about it.

The whole Vietnam War was one big atrocity and Kerry should NOT be bragging about having participated in it or attacking Bush for not participating in it. Bush's quaker-like avoidance of participation in the violence in Indochina is probably the most honorable thing he ever did!

[mikehiggins]

43. Quaker like? What an insult to the Quakers.

Bush, like his ruling cabal in D.C., stayed away from VietNam because they were too important to get their asses shot at by those little yellow men.

I have to imagine you are being ironic in equating Bush's use of personal privilege to avoid serving with the moral/ethical opposition to war that typified the Quaker philosophy.

If VietNam grew coke instead of smack, things might have been different vis a vis the Commander-in-Chimp

[daveskilt]

45. I didnt know quakers did coke?

bush wasn't staying home to say his prayers. he was hiding out in alabama snorting coke.

Ive never been a big fan of kerry's but his volunteering for the war (like so many who were about to be drafted anyway) is understandable, and his condemnation of it on ethical grounds along with his condemnation of the atrocities that he and most other vets saw is commendable.

For me most of kerry's flaws as a candidate were answered on thursday night in boston.

as for bush - plenty of questions still out there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2144528

[GreenArrow]

48. NO! It is impossible,

not to say, un-Democratic to come to a conclusion about Kerry or his motives that is unfavorable to him. Even if it's true.

/sarcasm off

Bush = Quakerlike? I agree with you that Kerry's bragging about his heroism in Vietnam is not something I feel should be trumpeted, but to call Bush quakerlike assumes he was avoiding duty based on some sort of moral principles.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[GreenArrow]

88. it probably was

it's easy to miss tounge in cheek stuff on here sometimes.

[sangh0]

161. Just as easy as

missing the facts, it appears.

[GreenArrow]

186. and, no doubt,

just as easy as trying to obscure them.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. Please peddle this tripe somewhere else.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

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[Grown2Hate]

Gee, it's so WONDERFUL to see the left so UNITED!

(PRE-EMPTIVE WARNING: This reply is NOT aimed at anyone PARTICULAR poster, just the ideas expressed by several here) Wow, what fun! Let's BASH our candidate (God knows the "liberal media" sure isn't touching this guy!). Let's advocate some asshole cartoonist who does all he can to denigrate our candidate (and once a dead guy!) and put words in their mouths and thoughts in their heads that were never there (or, maybe he's psychic and knows more than us). /sarcasm off (for now)

How about we stand UNITED behind our candidate? Yeah, he has flaws. Name one goddamn human being that doesn't. I think he's being a LITTLE heavy-handed with the war experience aspect of the campainging... but guess what? I don't know if you realize this, but America is in a fucking WAR right now, and he's running for President, which means, when he's elected, he'll be C.I.C. of a military that's at... WAR! So should he HIDE the fact that he knows what war is, KNOWS PERSONALLY the horrors of war, and would do everything he can to quickly end this current war and avoid all others?

Ted Rall has gone out of his way to just piss people off (and DIVIDE people) lately. Is it that hard to see? He DIVIDED the left with his Tillman comic (I have a close friend who's a total liberal that went to school with Tillman at ASU, and he can't say enough great things about the guy... just a caring, positive person... always looking out for those that weren't popular, always with something uplifting to say... and after 9/11 he just did what he considered to be his duty to his country, and died for that "cause"... he was VERY loved by a LOT of people, on the right AND left... Yeah, so let's fucking DESTROY him in a comic strip and see what happens! YAY!) And do you want to even ATTEMPT to tell me THIS current strip isn't divisive? I could use a good laugh, actually.

[tinanator]

60. on the other hand Cockburn and St Clair come pretty close

Nothing but CIA motherfucks. Blurring the line between progressive conscience and right wing talking points. When those two have something good to say about an opposition candidate, wake me up.
Assholes, I saw them in action a few months ago, and they are not
on the level.

[JohnLocke]

78. Cockburn? I wouldn't trust anything he says.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

90. Cockburn and St. Clair helped spread Gore propaganda during 00

They probably collected a check from the RNC for this story and the Gore ones....Rall, like Cockburn and St. Clair are part of the so called "left" that is so practical they throw out the baby everyday when they drain the bathwater.

[Name removed]

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[nothingshocksmeanymore]

180. You claiming they are accurate does not make it so

Go back to the primaries where many of their stories were debunked...if I had time which I don't at the moment, I'd be happy to debunk this one...btw...for someone who just registered you seem to have a history here..how is that?

[K-W]

18. That misses the point by quite alot.

He is someone who was willing to serve his country, capable of leading serving ably, and also capable of realizing that what was going on was wrong and fighting to end it.

I dont particuarly like that he participated in the first place, but I think average americans do.

[progressivebydesign]

20. I don't see it that way at all...

He was proud of his service to his country.. the fact that he volunteered to go. Just as so many of the soldiers in Iraq did, not knowing what they'd be sent into was a fraud, and a waste of human life. Kerry is proud that he served, he's proud that he was able to make a difference in the lives of his swift boat men... That is something he SHOULD be proud of. He protested the war, because he came to realize that too many soldiers and civilians were dying for nothing... It's not mutually exclusive. He should be damn proud of his medals. He earned them for bravery, and he receivede the Purple Hearts because he was wounded. Just because he did not agree with the war, and fought to end the insanity does NOT change the fact that the man did NOT have to serve.

Just as the soldiers and their families who are fighting in Iraq do not deserve scorn for being there, serving their country.. even though the war is not a righteous war. The blame should lay on the steps of White House... for this war, and for Vietnam. Not
On the backs of the soldiers sent to do their job. The soldiers that commit atrocities are to be judged for that, it's a different matter entirely.

[the_outsider]

33. It is a bit contradictory though

I could understand his decision to volunteer and serve his country.I appreciate his decision to protest the war after coming back. You rightly stated those two are not mutually exclusive. But once he realized that Vietnam war was an unjust and immoral invasion, it's wrong for him to focus on his service there and trying to use that service as a selling point in the middle of another illegal, immoral and unjust invasion. It could be explained away as the only viable election strategy to win over the undecided/moderate/swing votes during "war on terrorism". I personally do not believe that is the case. If that is indeed the case, it's really sad and all of us, including Kerry, should do our darn best to change that after he gets elected. Bashing Ted is not the way to go. He does have a point here.

[redqueen]

121. Why is it wrong to market things he knows will sell to this country?

Should he sacrifice this election for some noble cause, however insignificant? What purpose would that serve?

[GreenArrow]

127. For the same reason it's wrong to give poison to babies

.

[redqueen]

132. Oh for goodness' sake!

Giving poison to a baby will kill the baby or make it sicker. There is NO reason to do that.

Giving the lowing masses in this country the red meat they need in order to cast their votes for Kerry is NOT going to make this country ANY sicker than it already is.

Honestly... that statement just reeks of either a complete lack of understanding of politics and the stakes involved, or a refusal to acknowledge the reality we face right now with respect to this election.

[GreenArrow]

144. well, you asked why it was wrong for Kerry to market something

to people because it was something that people would buy.

Giving the people what they think they want to hear in this case will not make them better.

It's interesting that you describe the people as the "lowing masses," in need of "red meat" a phrase which brings to mind herds of grazing cattle. When cattle eat cattle they get mad cow disease. So figuratively speaking at least, serving red meat to the :lowing masses" could make the country sicker. Unless of course the meat served is lamb. Or maybe pork, always a popular choice of politicans everywhere. And then again, there is chicken, another political specialty of the house, as are fowl offerings of all varieties.

I'll agree that my statement was over the top, but the point is that what Kerry and the Democrats are offering up this election cycle is not the antidote to what ails this country. They will remove one cancer, while not offering any treatment and while continuing to live the lifestyle that enabled the cancer to take root to begin with. The product he is selling is not one that is not only not conducive to health, but actively harmful. But as you say, it is the one which people want to buy, so give the suckers what they want.

I've just about decided to vote for Kerry, but it will be the first time in my life that I actively hope that a politician is lying. I hope he is lying, giving the herd its red meat, as you put it, and then once elected, immediately begins instituting some, er, dietary changes.

[redqueen]

147. Yes I did, and your answer was badly off the mark

You think having bush in office for four more years will make this country better? Will somehow make society better? Because that's the alternative.

I describe those that LUST FOR WAR as 'lowing masses'. Serving the majority of the populace in order to OUST BUSH is not necessarily the best thing for them, but are you seriously arguing that having bush in office another four years is somehow better? Are you?

I trust that he has the courage and the character to deliver on needed reforms. More importantly, I realize that THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE.

We can bicker and argue about what's needed, but when there is NO WAY to get it, what's the point? Right now the HOUSE IS ON FIRE. Now is NOT the time to evaluate swatches, let alone bitch about how substandard we think the current fire department staff is!

[sangh0]

157. redqueen, don't let anyone quote you out of context

You are being attacked for the first sentence, but they are ignoring your second sentence

Should he sacrifice this election for some noble cause, however insignificant? What purpose would that serve?

That clearly shows why the example of poisoning a baby was disingenous.

[GreenArrow]

167. of course Bush won't make things better

in any way. Kerry is the better choice, which is not to say Kerry is a good choice; he's simply the better of two bad choices.

But for what it's worth, the answer I gave was right on the mark. The problems facing the country are far, far greater than GWB, who is simply a figurehead.

[progressivebydesign]

197. I disagree. Kerry is RIGHT to highlight his willingness to die for America

The willingness to serve, to die for his country was a noble cause. He did it, believing at the time, that it was a righteous cause. Just as so many soldiers are becoming disillusioned in Iraq and denouncing it once they return, it's the WILLINGNESS to fight for America that is worth showing.

Just as a firefighter thinks nothing of his/her own safety and runs into a building on fire, only to find out later it was not a fire.. it was a false alarm, and the person he thought he saw in the window was a mannequin. Does that make their willingness to run into danger less? Becuase it was not what they believed it to be when they ran into the building????

The willingness to serve. The willingness to put yourself in harm's way is something to honor. Iraq was a major mistake, or actually a fraud. BUT there will be a time, and there has been instances, when the soldiers ARE truly fighting for a righteous cause. THAT'S what motivates people like Kerry. The enlistees don't count on the fact that politicians could be so wicked as to send them into harm's way for purely political gain. I think Kerry has every right to highlight his willingness to go.. just as I would expect the soldiers returning from Iraq to do.

[Name removed]

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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

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[Pastiche423]

37. Not really all that strange

I think politically expedient is more like it.

[Bush was AWOL]

11. Ted Rall is a POS

Fuck him! I would prefer for him to not endorse Kerry.

[bossfish]

24. I'm sure the Ted Rall endorsement is a big...

difference-maker.

Relax people, it is just a cartoon.

[Bake]

12. Thanks, Ted. Real fuckin' productive.

Now go fuck yourself.

Bake

[DaveSZ]

16. He and Ann Coulter should settle down somewhere

They were made for each other.

[Bush was AWOL]

19. They both have made similar

unexcuseable comments. After what he said about Pat Tillman I know longer considered him a Liberal. He is a scumbag that will do anything to gain popularity.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Ted Rall has ripped the Smirking ChickenHawk a lot more than Kerry.

He's a helluva good man. But, an opponent of hypocrisy.

[Bush was AWOL]

26. Ted Rall is not someone we want to claim

After the comments he made about Pat Tillman he is considered a total loser that will do anything to garner attention.

[Tom Kitten]

29. Suicide seems like a viable option....

...after looking at a Ted Rall cartoon...It's all so fucking hopeless and people are so fucking ugly what's the use I wonder?

[Chelsea Patriot]

57. "Fucking ugly" is right!!!

Aren't cartoonist suppose to have some rendering skills?

Nothing is as low though as this piece of shit's "cartoon" mocking the 9-11 widows.

[Capn Sunshine]

81. Yeah, don't mention people who buy the hype could get killed

for NOTHING

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

98. Did Ted do that with this cartoon?

[jpgray]

59. Is cancelling the primaries something a 'good man' would advocate?

I guess disenfranchisement is OK so long as one of those you dub a 'helluva good man' agrees with it? :crazy:

[Jim Sagle]

30. Ted Rall is a slimy, rotting bag of communist pus.

[Debs]

31. Ted Rall

Is my second favorite cartoonist after Tom Tommorrow ( This modern World). His point is well taken, Kerry has not endeared himself to me with his pro war attitudes. Having said that I would certainly vote for spongebob rather than Bush. I agree with the post that said Kerry isnt the man he was in the seventies or even when he showed such courage during the BCCI scandal. I am hoping he really is but is playing this aspect of his character down to get elected. Kucinich was clearly the progressive candidate, and Kerry distanced himself from the really progressive agenda anti nafta, anti war, pro social justice. Kerry has shown during his tenure in the Senate he is committed to social justice, I expect more from him than just not being Bush but I dont disagree with Ralls main point, if overstated

[notbush]

32. I'm seeing some real hypocrisy here.

We love him when he dogs Bushco, he's an asshole when he hits our guy.
REMEMBER!!!!!!!!!The enemy of MY enemy is not always my friend.

[Zan_of_Texas]

34. Most of us here

were probably against invading Iraq since before the first bomb and the first shots. I know I was out with signs on a major street, with a handful of others. It pisses me off that our congress critters (well, they're obviously NOT OURS) say they weren't smart enough to figure out that the so-called intelligence was wrong. Bull shit. You don't need more than a 10th grade education and not much intelligence to figure out that a country doesn't need to go in to enforce a UN resolution for the UN, when the UN says, no thank you, we're still inspecting, we don't need you to do that. A/K/A Butt out.

Now that the string of rationales have been blown up along with around 11,000 human beings, and some of the rest have been tortured and defiled, I think most Americans believe the war against Iraq was unfounded and a bad idea.

If Kerry wanted to represent "most people" or "Democrats," he would highlight the side of him that criticized the Vietnam war, not the side of him that fought. Most of all, he would not have voted for the war, and he would now be figuring out ways for this country to shrink its military (not add troops), retract its global claws, and apologize for invading Iraq. He would get serious about reducing the unbelievably bloated military and our 725 bases in 132 countries. He would be advocating rejoining the world community, and reacquainting this country with real diplomacy instead of saber rattling and saber using. He would be advocating real aid to other countries, human needs aid instead of the giant glop of military aid and weapon sales we offer.

That's not what I'm hearing. I'm hearing a continuation of the war in Iraq, a "strong" military and a "strong" America.

Flame me if you like, but I'm thinking if Kerry can take for granted unity in the party even by those who want out of Iraq, he can continue to fight for the 5% of the voters somewhere in the fantasy center. Or, even the Republicans.

If he has to fight for 5% or 10% or 20% of the voters on the left (hell, I think it's more centrist than that) who want more peace and less military, maybe he has to follow the people a bit.

The real prize is the huge number of registered people who don't vote EVEN IN A PRESIDENTIAL RACE, NOT the 5% of undecideds in the middle. Stats show a lot of them are single women. The military shtick is not what will motivate them to vote.

[ForrestGump]

35. Ted Rall's lost the plot, if he ever had it

He's demonstrably scum. And he's by definition not a talented cartooist because (a) his 'art' stinks and (b) his 'message' stinks.

[notbush]

38. He's consistant.....

Are you??????

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

39. So's Chimpy.

Or at least that is what he tells us.

Your comment is straight RNC talking point.

[notbush]

41. NO... I'm just say'in

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
On this board I see so much "he's on our side" Yea I love him...
Later...he's on the otherside and he's a SOB.
RULE TO LIVE BY........
THE ENEMY OF MY ENEMY IS NOT ALWAYS MY FRIEND.

[GreenArrow]

50. either you are with us

or you are against us.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beloved Citizen]

40. Drugs?

Maybe Ted has gone the Manson route and has developed a belladonna habit?

Some of the worst garbage I've ever seen.

[leanings]

44. The last time

I said in a post on this board that Ted Rall was a smary, asinine little piece of shit I got flamed.

Well, he's still a smarmy, asinine little piece of shit. Anyone agree with me now?

[Quahog]

47. Rall always goes over the top, but....

I don't believe that Kerry sits around working himself into a masturbatory frenzy fantsizing about decapitating Viet Cong. That's typical Rall, going way too far over the top for anyone's taste.

But the dissonance of Kerry's history and current campaign message is real, and we shouldn't be drinking our OWN Kool-Aid and denying that there's an issue worth addressing (even as we condemn Rall for addressing it in such an ugly and hyperbolic manner).

Kerry enlisted and volunteered for extremely dangerous duty in Vietnam. I don't understand that, but I admire his courage in doing so. When he returned from active duty, knowing what everyone who did active duty there knew, he spoke out aggressively against the war. That part I DO understand, and again, I admire his courage for what he did.

Now it's 2004, terror and evil is rampant on the streets of Main Street USA, the average American has been so pumped full of swarthy, sweaty, hirsute fear for the last three years that it's utterly clear to every political operative that a candidate who can't "kick ass" hasn't got a chance. I mean, come on, look at bush*s approval ratings. They're dismal, but they aren't ZERO, which is what you would expect for an appointed president who hasn't done a single good thing for the country. The only reason he's a viable candidate this year at all is that there are people in this country who think they have to vote for the ass-kickingest asskicker, and they think that's probably george. So Kerry has to counter with images of him commanding the swift boat and unloading his M-16 into an enemy position deep in the darkest jungles of dampest and darkest Asia, so that everyone will feel safe and confident that, yes, he too can kick ass.

It's pathetic, really. But I believe it says much more about our country and the level of disinformation that's rampant in this nation than it does about John Kerry. Hell, he's just trying to win. And in order to do that, he has to be very careful not to underestimate the stupidity and gullibility of the American public.

[trumad]

52. Jesus folks

Rall may be wrong every once in awhile but if you can't see that he's against unjust wars then you're not looking very hard. Read between the lines and try hard to see what this guy's saying.

[BiggJawn]

55. Rall's doctor needs to change his meds.

They're not working. First the Pat Tillman shit, now this.

OK, so he still draws Dumbya as a tin-horn dictator, so I GUESS we should give him a pass, M-kay?

He makes Kerry sound like a dumb-ass REMF I used to work with. All "ears and fingers" The two other guys on the line who actually heard gunfire ripped his ass after about 6 months of this bullshit.

[jpgray]

58. Ted Rall is deeply stupid

As proof, read this article wherein he advocates in deadly seriousness cancelling the primaries. Some will claim it is satire, but they are really just attempting to save Rall for what few decent pieces of commentary he puts out, and there are a few. Commentary like this, though, is deeply stupid:

"What if the other Democratic candidates came together at a joint press conference to announce that they were dropping out of the race to endorse Dean? If nothing else, cash-starved states would love it--the average primary costs taxpayers $7 million. More to the point, it would save Dean roughly $75 million--enough to close the money gap with Bush.

A more ephemeral but bigger benefit would be the message that a unified Democratic party could send to the electorate. Canceling the primaries would convey that Democrats are no longer a clumsy amalgamation of special interests. We're organized, it would say. Fear provides plenty of impetus for our new single-mindedness. We're afraid of George Bush--so afraid that we ought to set aside our normal partisan bickering. Our great country has been through a lot, but it may not survive another four years of reckless wars based on lies and fought without a plan, a giant sucking sound stealing millions of jobs overseas or trillions of dollars in unaffordable tax cuts for the wealthy."

Personally, I believe any cancelling of the primaries at that time would have indicated we're more interested in crowning someone by the measure of their money and party endorsements (Gore, most superdelegates) than we are interested in giving people a chance to vote on an unusually large spectrum of good candidates. It was ironic to me that some loved this article's viewpoint when it came out, yet complained bitterly when the primaries were virtually over in March that they wouldn't get a chance to vote. People are apparently fine with being disenfranchised so long as it crowns the right guy. For those of us who wanted a chance to vote for our candidate (and voting Kucinich was a proud moment in my life), Rall is not the brightest bulb out there.

[latebloomer]

61. He goes over the top, however

he does bring out a point which deeply bothers me. The Kerry who spoke up about the atrocities of Vietnam-- condemning them, which the cartoon does not show-- and the Kerry today are two very different people. I imagine you have to do a lot of selling out to be considered presidential material.

However, he is Not-Bush, and therefore I will vote for him.

[MadHound]

62. LOL, I don't know which is more amusing

Rall's insightful skewering of Kerry and his abandonment of his anti-war stance, or the responses here on this thread from people having a stroke trying to square their love of Rall with their slavish, blind devotion to Kerry.

Face it people, most of the population is NOT voting FOR Kerry, they're voting AGAINST Bush. Kerry has some major flaws both in his own actions and the stance that he takes on various issues. Most of us in the anti-war camp are quite disgruntled to find ourselves forced into voting for a candidate who isn't taking a stance against the war.

You had better get used to this type of criticism folks, for this is going to be the norm if Kerry wins. Those of us on the anti-war left will hang with the Dems for this election only, and after that, we're going to be working our asses off trying to stop the war. If that includes hoisting Kerry on his own petard, so be it.

And if you are one of the people wishing for unconditional support of Kerry and his stances, well hell, you're no better than the Bush-bots.

[jpgray]

80. Anyone who thinks this 'insightful' gets only pity from me

Kerry is a goldmine for satire, but this toon is deeply moronic.

Rall seems to find it necessary to put racist words in the mouths of those who he despises. He did it with Tillman, and now he's doing it with Kerry. Rall is describing incredibly violent war crimes that Kerry had nothing to do with, and the idea that simply because Kerry served he is not allowed to protest the war once home is ridiculous. Moreover, Kerry was not a believer in the idea that the Vietnam War could or should have been 'won'.

Can you point out which lines or phrases you found particularly brilliant? And incidentally, did you agree with Rall that the primaries should have been cancelled after Gore's endorsement, and that millions should be disenfranchised for the sake of 'unity'? It seems you argue the exact opposite most of the time on this board, but lunacy and consistency are usually far apart--witness Rall.

[MadHound]

91. Well, let's see here friend

You state that Kerry had nothing to do with the war crimes in Vietnam. Well, he witnessed them first hand, why didn't he try to intervene and put a halt to them?

And no, I don't think that Rall or I are saying that Kerry had no right to criticize the Vietnam war once he got home, in fact I think it was one of his better moments. However, to rightly criticize the Vietnam war, and yet revel in and emphasize his standing as a "war hero" seems a little disingenous. It also seems a little hypocritical for such an avowed anti-war activist as Kerry purportedly was to be supporting and vowing continuance for a war that is just as illegal and immoral as Vietnam was. Frankly, I think most of us, Democrats and Americans at large, would rather hear how Kerry is going to bring about peace, rather than how he supports the Iraq War.

And no, I don't agree with Rall on his idea about cancelling the primaries, what gives you the idea that I did?

[jpgray]

97. Here's what the cartoon has to say

Kerry: "No one blasted more gooks than I did. We raped 'em, cut off their ears and zapped their genitals. We captured those dirty slopes so we could chop off their heads and watch 'em wiggle their lips. It was incredible! If every soldier had been as willing as me to nade zipperheads, we would have won that war!"

Now, which part of that do you believe shows an 'insightful' satirical representation of Kerry's views on Vietnam?

[MadHound]

106. Let me ask you a question friend

Are you humor impaired, or are you just pissed that Rall is holding Kerry's feet to the fire? Rall has skewered Bush in much the same way as he did Kerry, worse in fact, and everybody, yourself included, laughed and thought what a wonderful wit the man was. Now when he uses the same wit on "your man" you get all pissed off. Why, because Rall hammers the nail of truth squarely on the head? If so, well you had better get used to such criticism friend, because you are backing a pro-war pony who if he wins is going to be taken to task continously until he gets us out of Iraq.

You want the support of the left to get Bush out, fine, you're getting it. But don't expect us to be happy about what we're putting in his place OK.

[jpgray]

111. Don't run away now--you still haven't answered any of my questions

I've always dubbed Rall a poor excuse as a cartoonist. He does have a few worthy pieces, but this is hardly one of them. Rall is at his best when he is not injecting racist language into people he for one reason or another despises, wholly misrepresenting their views for no satirical purpose, or calling for the disenfranchisement of millions of voters. I think you are projecting when referring to my motivations. You seem to be praising Rall now simply because he is bashing Kerry--that you are unable to point to which parts of this 'satire' you find so insightful is very telling.

[MadHound]

126. No friend, if you actually read my posts

You would find that I am commenting more upon the hypocrisy around here regarding this particular cartoon. Rall skewers Bush and he is a fantastic man, Rall skewers Kerry, and he is the devil incarnate. It is really quite laughable friend, and thanks for contributing your fair share of chuckles;)

[jpgray]

164. You're retreating again--you labeled Rall's cartoon as 'insightful'

When asked to defend that judgment, you have nothing to say.

[redqueen]

117. Good insight - I forgot about his use of racist epithets

Perhaps Rall's projecting?

:shrug:

[jpgray]

122. Well, it's part of Rall's over-the-top style, which can be quite effective

We are here talking about it, aren't we? :D

[redqueen]

124. Effective at handing ammo to the right to demonize us with?

Is that the goal? Seems to me most of the comments here are anti-Rall. He's good now and then but he's more of a hindrance because he's a loose cannon, IMO.

[MadHound]

129. Darn those loose cannons

You never know when they're going to blow up in your face:eyes:

Why are you people so suprised at this. Why does this kind of attitude suprise you? After all, this is what you get when you insist on ABB, a candidate who is only marginally better than the current resident, and whose own stances are open to criticism, condemnation, and ridicule.

You all should start getting used to this. If you would notice in the WP/ABC poll I posted below, most people aren't voting FOR Kerry, but AGAINST Bush. Thus, once Kerry gets elected, his feet are going to be held firmly to the fire, especially over the issue of the Iraq war. This doesn't bode well for Kerry, being as that most Democrats are against the war, as is most of the public now. They are going to want a concrete plan for getting us OUT of Iraq, not just muddled generalities to stay the course.

It is probably a good thing Rall published this, it seperates the Kerry drones from those who still think for themselves.

[redqueen]

134. GMAB

"You people"? :eyes: indeed!

Sorry, but honest criticism is NOT what Rall is engaging in here. When he manages to make a point, he can be funny and insightful. With this and other cartoons, though, he misses the mark by a country mile.

Polls may make you feel good but they're essentially meaningless. So what if people aren't really that solidly behind Kerry at this point. I'm about 100% certain that the vast majority of them don't have the slightest idea what they're even talking about. They're basing their decision on a few sound bites and preconceived notions. So what! As long as bush is ousted, what difference does it make to you what Kerry's faults are.

Is your goal ousting Bush or proving how Cheneying smart you are? You're preaching to the choir with a lot of this crap, you know. I'm on your side, yet you're vilifying me as if I just wandered over here from freeptardland. "You people..." "Kerry drones..."

You think you're 'thinking for yourself'. What you're DOING is HELPING ROVE.

*ptui*

[MadHound]

152. Damn RQ, have you really gone that far down the rabbit hole?

The reason I'm criticizing you is because you HAVE gone around the bend with Kerry. Look I'm voting for the man, but I'm smart enough to realize that he is not the be all and end all of Democratic or national politics. He is ABB, a bill of goods that we are being sold, with not much to show for it.

And the reason that I'm bringing up the polls is because they ARE important. The show up how fragile this ABB coalition is, and how easily Kerry and the Dems could be dead in the water if they don't start getting us out of Iraq immediately when they get into office. If not, you're not going to be hearing from just anonymous posters in political chat rooms, or semi-known political cartoonists, you're going to be seeing millions in the street again, with even more fleeing the party. Now, does that sound meaningful enough?

And my goal in criticizing Kerry is two-fold. To awaken people in the party to the dangers ahead if they continue in this course, and to join with the majority of Democrats in trying to persuade Kerry from his hawkish stance. And yes, now is the time to bring these issues up. If Kerry feels enough heat for his actions NOW, perhaps he will change course in order to secure the election. Otherwise, he will simply feel he has a mandate to do as he pleases. This is how issues get hashed out in politics, you might go check out Humphrey's response to Eugene McCarthy in '68 for an analogous situation. It is enlightening.

[jpgray]

170. I disagree with Kerry on almost everything foreign policy wise

I disagree with nearly everything on the domestic front. The beginning and end of my support of Kerry is predicated on the fact that there is a difference between he and Bush, and that difference is to me significant enough to vote on. I supported Kucinich in my caucus.

But that doesn't make this a good or 'insightful' cartoon. I just got through defending Jon Stewart on the thread titled 'FUCK JON STEWART' because someone got annoyed that he made so much fun of Kerry during the convention. I think you need to stop attributing these motivations to people without any evidence and actually stop to look at the meaning of the words that are offered to you--not everyone here who is criticizing Rall is a Kerrybot that believes he can do no wrong. You're doing some of those criticisms a disservice by writing them all off as Kerry fanatics with their panties in a wad.

[MadHound]

174. Perhaps you are correct friend

And perhaps I am overreacting. If so, then I apologize to you and others that I have offended. It is simply because I feel that any misstatement, or even slightest criticism of Kerry is considered verbotten on this board, and I am immediately jumped on for it.

I do not believe that the Democratic party should be in lockstep, nor that any Democratic candidate is above reproach. This has always been one of the party's greatest strengths, the fact that it IS able to respond to it's critics and constituents. Sad to say, I think this strength, this qualilty is disappearing from the party, and hence the party is lesser because of that.

[jpgray]

185. I wouldn't call it overreacting--you seem perfectly calm to me

I just would hesitate to paint all the negative responses to this cartoon with the brush of 'Kerry fan hypocritically attacking Rall'. Insofar as this cartoon has us all talking about these issues, it IS an effective cartoon.

As I said above, Kerry is goldmine for satire--there are inconsistencies to be found in his voting record and in his actions, I just disagree with the way Rall chooses to take on the subject. Criticism of Kerry I have zero problem with, so long as I am free to state my own opinion about it. :D Anyone who advocates the 'go away and shut up' approach to criticism of Kerry wouldn't get support from me. If we don't question our leaders and disallow dissenting points of view to insure unity, it would be a pretty hollow victory.

[redqueen]

181. I realize everything you do, friend

But when you start calling me and others on here "Kerry drones", it is YOU who have started to disappear around the bend.

IMO the biggest obstacle to Kerry winning is compromised election procedures, not a lack of pacifist influence on the party platform.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MadHound]

154. BING BING BING BING!!!!

[jpgray]

168. I think Rall genuinely believes in what he is doing

He's not some agent provacateur here. But I do think that some of his cartoons are mediocre pieces of work disguised in a 'shocking' wrapper. He does give ammo to the right, but I think his heart is in the right place.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

93. Wow that's some big generalization you build your premise on

Face it people, most of the population is NOT voting FOR Kerry, they're voting AGAINST Bush.

I really don't think you are prepared to prove that one up...but I'd be willing to peruse any proof you have of that unprovable statement.

Those of you on the anti-war left have repeatedly proven that you LIVE IN A WORLD where people don't necessarily see things the way you do. While that doesn't make you views incorrect, it does make the manner in which you think people's senses are appealed to a bit off target.

Last week, I never ONCE saw Kerry refer to Viet Nam as a JUST war. I did see Kerry, Obama, Sharpton, Dean et al RIP the patriotism mantra from the GOP. I saw Kerry say he VOLUNTEERED for something POOR people were drafted for...I saw him contrast the fact that one of the candidates used his privilege to ditch what every other young American man had to break the law to ditch while he did not ditch it.

In fact, MANY Americans could NOW VIEW Viet Nam as an unjust war BECAUSE of Kerry's testimony....I have NEVER ONCE seen him AVOID owning up to the fact that he testified.

We are used to this type of criticism hyped by your side as being even handed when it is just as hyporbolic and overblown as the shit thrown at us from the right...I guess both extremes have their apparatchiks.

[MadHound]

102. You are soo coy friend, LOL

You know I don't put down anything here unless I'm willing to back it up. Just come out and say you want a source next time, I'll get you one.

Anyway, aside from anecdotal evidence like the following;
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1915293>
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1840428>
There also have been polls done. Washington Post and ABC teamed up on this very question, and yes, the majority of Kerry supporters ARE voting against Bush, not for Kerry. <http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac3/ContentServer?pagename=polls&nextstep=displayQuestion&interactive=n&pollid=2004204&pripollid=&varname=q9&privarname=&questCategoryType=n&questCategory=Elections+and+Politics&keyword=&pollDateRange=3&ctabtype=A&startingRow=1&pollType=National&searchPollId=0&newsearch=http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac3/ContentServer?pagename=polls&interactive=n;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/polls.htm>

And yes, I saw the same things you saw Kerry do and say. However friend, the one important thing that neither of us saw is Kerry coming out foursquare against an illegal, immoral war, with a plan in hand for getting our troops home ASAP. Instead, he promises to stay the course, with vague bones thrown out about having most of the troops home by the end of his first term.

Face it friend, Kerry is going to get roasted by the anti-war folk if he doesn't take immediate steps to end the war when he is elected, and will probably take down the Democratic party with him. Most of Kerry's coalition is united behind one idea, getting Bush out of office. If Kerry doesn't start providing the goods vis-a-vis the war, people are going to flee in droves, and the Dems will nosedive, not just in '06 and '08.

You can scoff at this or laugh at it at your own peril. I'm just giving you a friendly warning.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

105. On line polls are your proof? ROFL!

The anti war folks are ensuring 4 more years of the most reckless foreign policy at their own peril..

[MadHound]

108. Ummm wrong again friend

If you will actually look at the poll's methodology, you will see that it wasn't an on-line poll, but a telephone poll with a good sample size. Oh, and it was done by two "mainstream" news outlets. It was just reported on-line, like much of the news is in this information society:eyes: Methinks thou doth protesth waaaaay too much.

And how are the anti-war people insuring "4 more years of the most reckless foreign policy"? By rightfully criticizing Kerry? Puhleeze friend, here, pull my other leg. What is it with you Kerry supporters, first you demand our vote, and then when that doesn't satisfy you, you demand that everybody fall in lockstep with slavish dog-like devotion to the man. Give it up already! You've got the coalition you want, don't fuck around with it, demanding utter devotion and thus pissing people off. You do that, and your comfy lead could disappear by November.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

136. My mistake but it was a random sample so how do we know Repubs weren't

polled.

Nobody demanded your fucking vote...do what you want..and live with the results...I am SOO sorry that people take you to task for your lying hyperbole wherein you EQUATE Kerry with Bush...stop threatening us with your fickle vote...you want the parties to listen to you and at the same time...you hold your vote ransom then wonder why they tend to hunt for the mushy middle.

BTW, you gave me this same TRIPE when Arnold and Davis were running in the California recall..you equated Arnold's policies with Davis...all you really need to do is look at the results you keep getting to see the manner in which you shoot yourself in the foot.

[MadHound]

143. Oooo, touched a nerve I see

My my, such ad hominems, well then, let me put a few things to rest before your po' little head just explodes.

First off, I never engaged with you or anybody on this board on any issue dealing with either Arnold or Davis or the recall. It was something I watched from a distance, and didn't discuss, so maybe you should do some research before you go accusing people of things that they didn't do

Second, YES, you and vast numbers of people, both on this board and off of it did indeed DEMAND my vote for Kerry. Now that you've got it, you're demanding my slavish devotion to a pro war candidate. Screw that friend. You know, at least I remain true to my principles and morals by being anti-war. This damn election and goddamn Kerry has made so many hawks out of doves that it is both pitiful and amazing to behold.

Third, expect me and others to be around here for a good long while, holding Kerrys' and the pro war Dems' feet to the fire over Iraq. You may be able to accept the fact that innocents are dying daily, but a great many, if not the majority, cannot. I'm willing to accept a great deal of bullshit and hypocrisy from a candidate or president, but the continual loss of innocent and not so innocent lives in an unjust, illegal, and immoral war is NOT one of them. You don't like that attitude? Then work with me to get us out of this damn war, otherwise I'll be going off long and loud, got the picture?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

155. You are hallucinating...find me a post where I demanded your vote

BTW..Geroge Bush got us in an injust war and would have no matter what anyone said or did.

I am working with you to get us out of that war...STEP ONE...get RID if the guy that BENEFITS MOST.

[sangh0]

158. The argument depends on making stuff up

When Rall makes up stuff about Kerry calling Vietnamese "slopes" and the "progressives" cheer, then you should not be surprised when they try to put words in your mouth.

[MadHound]

172. Sorry, I gave up hallucinagens decades ago

And while you didn't "demand" in that specific term, you did insist, quite forcefully at times<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2022487#2022589>
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1828045>

But that's OK, that is, after all, part of what a discussion board is about.

I also realize that you are helping in your own way to get us out of this war, and to get rid of Bush. But at least be honest, even in your heart of hearts, that we're going to have to be hounding Kerry in order to get the US out of Iraq. Such a turn of events could irrepairably harm the party and the progressive movement for decades. Better to point out Kerry's inconsistencies now, while he is still looking to win and hence open to suggestion, rather then after he is in office and feels(mistakenly) that he has a mandate.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

179. ROFL..I debated people on the tactics they used and that is an insistence?

No...you ARE INDEED hallucinating if you can draw the conclusion that either of those posts demanded anything but to THINK ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES of your actions.

also realize that you are helping in your own way to get us out of this war, and to get rid of Bush. But at least be honest, even in your heart of hearts, that we're going to have to be hounding Kerry in order to get the US out of Iraq

Except you are putting the cart before the horse. First, get Bush out THEN demand accountability from Kerry to get us out RESPONSIBLY. Hounding him before he wins and painting him as almost the same with propaganda was pretty much the same road map that got Bush into office rather than Gore.

Better to point out Kerry's inconsistencies now, while he is still looking to win and hence open to suggestion, rather then after he is in office and feels(mistakenly) that he has a mandate.

Again..it worked so well with Gore....isn't insanity doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result?

BTW..on edit...I notice you seem to have forgotten the position you took in the recall..all the while taking a thread of mine where I made no such demand for your vote and you pretending I did.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

163. Oh and on the recall..I guess my recall is more accurate than yours

First off, I never engaged with you or anybody on this board on any issue dealing with either Arnold or Davis or the recall. It was something I watched from a distance, and didn't discuss, so maybe you should do some research before you go accusing people of things that they didn't do

please make sure to scroll the entire thread and please remember that while the Greens decided NOT to go for Camejo in the long run they DID help qualify the recall for the ballotn at Camejo's request..again...if your principles shoot yourself and those you claim to help in the foot..are they principles or paraiahs? Do they free people or are they an albatross dressed as an escape map?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=437663#437790

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

188. Hey Madhound...how come you responded to all my posts but this one?

[MadHound]

195. Nice misrepresentation there friend

If you noticed in that post, I made no equivication between Arnold, Davis, or anybody else in the race. In fact, the bulk of my post was a call for the Democrats to reform themselves and remember their progressive roots. In fact, if you notice in my post further down, I call for an end to the blame game in that race. Oh well, I guess it was simply more lessons unlearned.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

211. Gee....I think I can still read just fine

On equating Democrats with Republicans for Madhound's very own jowls:
34. Yeah, well I gave that up a while back


Because more and more, toeing that Democratic line is the same thing as toeing the corporate/facist/'Pug line. No thank you, I want a real change in this country.


Oh and were you calling for an end to the blame here?


How does it feel NSMA, to be a moral, compassionate and just person, caucassing with a corporate controlled party, whose bottom line is where's the money? I think when your moral quandry gets bad enough(as it did with me), you will come on over to the Green way. More and more people are doing it for your moral self can only be abused for so long.

You were taken to task in that thread just as you are here and the bast you could ever do was triangulate with circular logic and defend the Green position...now the poor and working class are MORE FUCKED in California than they were before just as they will be in America if Bush wins..how many times do you and your party need to get ti wrong to finally get it right?

BTW...go back and read Granny D's words....the truth will set you free but first it will piss you off..the Greens and the far left in general are the best friends the far right has.

[gatorboy]

63. Ted Rall's job as a political cartoonist is to bring this stuff up.

Regardless of which side he is on. Plus, he doesn't wear kiddie gloves on any issue for any side and I respect that.

He once applied for a political cartoonist job for some paper and during the interview the editor asked him, "If I hire you, how do I know I won't have people picketing outside my building."

His reply, "If I do my job right, you will have people picketing outside your building."

[kaitykaity]

72. Beyond clueless.

I sure didn't see anything about "How do you ask a man
to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

What rot.

[Mighty Undecided]

83. Love him or hate him, Rall HAS been consistent.

Cartoons are meant to be over the top. The point is quite clear. he's just asking you that uncomfortable question: where do you stand on war lately?

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

99. I didn't get that as the point at all...perhaps points are subjective

I think his point was to claim Kerry would be as murderous as Bush...don't know if I buy that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

104. His "point" was pointing our Kerry's hypocrisy.

Kerry once villified the war in Vietnam. Now he is using his service in that same war as something to be proud of.

Kerry should be asking "Who is willing to be the last man to die for a mistake..in Iraq?", instead of offering a realistic plan to get out of Iraq.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

107. Kerry USED the fact that he VOLUNTEERED for something

POOR people were being DRAFTED for..he never once boasted about creating casualties, he never ONCE stated the war was right, he never ONCE defended that war....he only DREW the comparison between one that questions everyone else's patriotism while DITCHING what others had to suffer through with himself.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

112. Fine. Then what's with all the fellow vets attesting to his heroism?

Sure, I get it. He's playing the military service card to point out the Chickenhawk's bullshit hyper-patriotism. So does Rall. But, it's the sheerest hypocrisy to parade his medals received from a war that he decried at one time. Sort of like saying, "I helped rob the bank, and I was sorry I did, but at least I did it, while Bush avoided participating in the robbery but thought it was a great idea."

Rall is simply pointing out that you can't have it both ways and is attacking Kerry's inconsistancies.

[jpgray]

118. So you can't serve bravely in an unjust war and then protest it?

That's your definition of hypocrisy? So all the Vietnam vets against the war should have just shut up and sat down, then. Interesting.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

125. Did I say that? No. I didn't.

What I did say that is that he's bragging about the things he did and were once ashamed of.

BTW Me. USMC 1961-'65. When asked if I would extend my enlistment to go to Vietnam and kill people, I refused, and told them why. No great feat of bravery on my part, I got 30 days of mess duty for my youthful outspokeness.

I don't "blame" Kerry for volunteering, but I hardly consider him a hero to have done so.

[sangh0]

162. Yes, you did say it

.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

142. Perhaps you missed the part where he pulled a guy out of the water that

would have been dead....the point was that he was loyal and brave in the face of danger...I saw NO OTHER referendum on the war...the point was he turned back into enemy fire to save a man's life. That was the point. It's like saying, "I was there when the bank was getting robbed and stood in front of a bullet so my friend wouldn't catch it."

are you now saying that every young kid that was drafted for Viet Nam helped rob a bank? Aren't you a vet? Does that not mean that you helped rob the same bank?

Rall is simply making shit up and pretending he's doing so on a matter of principle...again I ask people of such high principles as you and Rall...if your principles actually result in the OPPOSITE of their intent occurring...how principled are you? It's like saying I helped ROB A FUCKING BANK BY ACCIDENT.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

200. Uh..Kerry wasn't drafted. He volunteered.

So, you are saying that we should just march lockstep and ignore "our" candidates missteps and contradictions and go along with anything that he proposes? Like continuing the occupation of Iraq? Like backing the apartheid wall in Israel/Palestine? Like advocating the continuation of the embargo against that great threat Cuba?

How do you figure that pointing out the usual hypocrisy of politicians is going to get Shrubya reelected. Do you think Rall's political cartoon, or my agreement with it, is going to cause a stampede to Nader?

Perhaps we shouldn't have protested the war in Vietnam because there was a backlash against the protesters? Perhaps we shouldn't have marched against racism because there was a backlash that gave Reagan his "southern strategy"? Perhaps we shouldn't have protested the invasion of Iraq because it might embarass Kerry, Lieberman, Gephardt and Edwards who voted for it?

Principles? We don't need no steenkin' principles! Do we?

I got news for you, the war in Vietnam would probably still be going on if it hadn't been for the protests - against "our" president(D). Institutional racism would probably still exist if there hadn't been the sit-ins, protests, against the weak response of "our" president (D) to racism.

Right. To hell with those "high principled" folks who don't change their politics to fit the moment.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

213. ROFL is "lockstep" the catch all for people when they have no logic?

No I never said you should agree with everything he says...nor did I say you should march in lockstep...I DO expect you to have the saavy to know he needs to get votes and to hold his feet to the fire once he gets in office. I DO expect you to NOT demand that he IRRESPONSIBLY pull out of IRaq even though I agree with you he must pull out as soon as possible...BTW..where did I ever say he was drafted? What is it with those that slam Kerry repeatedly seeing things that weren't said?

I don't need your prinicples if they are never manifested in anything I can tangibly see..no...your prinicples in Florida left me with GWB...the antithesis of your principles...how many times must i remain victim to yur principles if your principles are tantamount to steering with the rearview mirror?

[sangh0]

219. He never explains what the contradicition is

but he calls us "locksteppers" when we ask him what the contradiction is

C'mon bandera! Explain the contradiction of praising the troops while criticizing the leaders. Where is the contradiction between being proud of your own conduct, and being ashamed of what the nation's leaders have done?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

221. Well, he sure as hell didn't sound too proud of his own conduct in '72.

"We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum."

Hardly high praise for the troops.

I have nothing against praising the poor sods who were duped, and are now being duped to do the same kinds of things in Iraq.

But, does he also praise the generic "troops" at Abu-Grhaib or the bombers of wedding parties?

I, and apparantly, Ted Rall both object to the glorification of the military.

Killing people, even if you are duped into it, is not noble, or glorious, or honorable. It you think otherwise, perhaps you should check in at the nearest recruiting station.

[sangh0]

229. And again, bandera dodges the question

Why won't explain bandera explain the contradiction? How come whenever I ask him to explain how it's a contradiction to praise the troops while criticizing the leaders he goes off on some other issue?

Could he be avoiding this question because he has no explanation?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

230. And, again, Sangh0 pretends obtuseness.

It has been explained countless times, as has the "difference" between medals and ribbons, but he continues to pretend that he just can't get it.

Just keep demanding that those cans labeled tuna really has tuna in them.

[sangh0]

231. Again, bandera won't explain the contradiction

He will claim (just as he falsely claimed there was a contradiction) that the explanation has been posted, but he won't supply the link.

[jpgray]

101. And that point is made clear by portraying Kerry as a war criminal racist?

Could you point out how, please?

[F.Gordon]

95. It's a Political Cartoon. Get over it

Ted Rall has the right to "say" whatever he wants in his cartoons. He's edgy and that makes people uncomfortable, but he "says" things in his cartoons that no one else will. I don't care much for Ted Rall myself, but I defend his right to draw/say whatever the fuck he wants.

Political Cartoons are not as common today as they were 60+ years ago. Here is one drawn by a "lefty-commie" back during WWII that attacked FDR for scraping Social Programs for the War.

[Grown2Hate]

109. He's saying things other people won't say?

He's saying that Kerry hates Asians, is incredibly racist, and got off on killing them in brutal fashion. Wow, I think you're right! Nobody else will say that! Except, perhaps Man Coulter.

I have the "right" to bend over and lick my own anus... doesn't make it productive, or a very good idea.

EDITED FOR SPELLING

[F.Gordon]

159. You should join the Circus

I don't think I've ever seen someone lick their own anus. :+ And I'm fairly certain that a few people wish they could...and it would be a productive idea to them.....but that's another topic for another thread....
:eyes:

If you ask anyone who served in combat in Vietnam....and they are honest...they won't give you a rosy opinion of the people in Vietnam during the time they served. Today? Maybe. But not back then.

Isn't ALL killing brutal? I don't know of any way that "war" kills with kindness. I can't speak for Ted Rall, but I think he is just "inflating" a particular idea to get his point across. It's like the cartoon I saw of Rumsfeld masturbating while watching the bombs fall in Iraq, which I thought was funny.

I won't get into how our soldiers during Vietnam would "waste" a South Vietnamese once in awhile, just for the fun of it. That would draw my friend Rick from Maryland into the fold, and I'm bored with him.....

Let me know when you join the Circus. Or, maybe you have already?

On Edit: You may or may not recall that I said I don't care much for Ted Rall? But again, I defend his right to say/draw whatever the fuck he wants.....

[redqueen]

100. I guess he's trying to be funny.

Maybe I don't get the humor because it seems to me he's not realting to anything in reality very well in it.

:shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

103. I just want to take this opportunity to thank you

You and I were at odds on how best to accomplish our goals in the primaries, but you never used hyperbolic untrue hype to make your point. YOu are proof that one can reside in the left and not abandon the truth nor rely on pithy propaganda to convey your dissatisfaction with the way things are. You are proof that the left can be SENSIBLE and still stand on prinicple.

:thumbsup:

I so wish others could see that not only is Rall inaccurate, but self serving in attempting to blur that line between the two candidates...who got more people killed? Those that blurred the line between Bush and Gore? Or those that saw it and knew our foreign policy would by no means be as reckless as it is today with Gore at the helm?

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

138. Gee what substance..so could you

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

153. And do you think you have elevated yourself in my eyes?

Your rebuttal to what I say is some smarmy little one liner...I really don't give a flying fuck what you think of me. What you think of me is none of my business.

I SAW the manner in which some candidate's supporters were interested in TEARING apart the Democratic party in SPITE of the fact that ALL SOCIAL JUSTICE accomplished in America since Abe Lincoln happened at the insistence of the imperfect Democratic party. I saw that SOME would talk out of both sides of the mouths claiming Kerry took corporate money while DEAN was doing the same damn thing on the sly. I SAW that some would ALL OF A SUDDEN embrace a guy with FAR MORE centrist values than even Kerry's as long as he spit the right venom out when they wanted to hear it (Dean ONCE supported tort reform) I SAW that some had no problem with a guy that LOCKED environmentalists out of a land deal in his own state..as long as he said the right words...in SPITE of that I STILL would have supported Dean had he WON the nomination because I CAN handle living with the choices my party makes as a whole in most instances no matter how imperfect they may be.

Yeah...you lost respect for me back then because I took people to task over that.

I can live with your disdain. I wear it like a fucking badge.

[ibegurpard]

175. Here's a medal

for your self-righteous diatribe, which pretty much sums up what I'm talking about. And you have the NERVE to compliment someone who's never felt the need to insult and browbeat those who disagreed with them for not stepping into the gutter? You TOOK PEOPLE TO TASK for having the same PASSIONATE commitments to their ideas about what the party should be about that you do? Arrogance to the extreme.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

177. No..I took people to task for claiming only one candidate could

accomplish our goals..now that candidate supports my candidate...btw...Redqueen and I did flame back and forth during the primaries...she simply accepts the reality of the result and does not feel the need to shoot herself in the foot due to that realization.

[redqueen]

114. Wow... thanks

That means a lot coming from you!

It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that Kerry has never engaged in anything close to the kind of chest-thumping spew Rall portrays here.

I'm getting pretty tired of people who expect that everyone should know everything that they know. Not only is it just stupid, it also seems self-serving and egotistical. I mean it's fine to be proud that you're knowledgeable and aware - but some go a step further and start ridiculing anyone who hasn't already caught on.

I'm just ranting now... but really this is getting beyond aggravating. Nader, Rall... anyone who *refuses* to see the big picture.

[sangh0]

146. I guess, when you're fighting for the looney left

it's OK to call the Vietnamese "slopes" even though Kerry has never used the word. Funny how none of these "progressives" have taken offense at the gratuitous use of an ethnic slur.

[redqueen]

148. Anything to buff up those shiny '100% LEFTY PROGRESSIVE!' medals

Making me sick, it is.

[sangh0]

166. Yep, "progressives" whine about the poor and democracy

but all they really care about is "me, Me, ME!!!"

[Bo]

110. Rall realizes the war is lost

In Iraqnam and that Kerry is acting like an Idiot saying he can fix it
when we all really know its over.

[redqueen]

115. This country lusts for war

You can't sell a candidate who decries the war to a populace that secretly loves death.

Once we change society, we can have a candidate who is honest. Right now our socity is so sick, an honest candidate would lose to a snake oil salesman every day of the week. I'd bet my last dime on it.

[the_outsider]

222. What makes you so sure?

A majority of Americans are against the "war". Historically half of the population does not even vote. Probably some of them just do not care, but a presidential campaign is a great opportunity to make them care and present alternate views and attract new voters. Instead he seems to accept the paradigm of Bush's self-declared illegal "war" and then trying to prove his credentials as a "better war president". If instead he stated -

a) This is Bush's war against UN, global and American opinion. I do not agree with this war. I will stop this war as soon as I am elected.

b) I do not believe there is a military solution to the problem of terrorism. Waging endless wars against an indefinite list of countries creates more problems than it solves.

c) the solution is in formulating more just and fair foreign policies, looking at Israel/Palestine issue impartially, reducing oil dependency and alternate energy resources, reducing defense budgets, withdrawing troops from most of the countries and so on.

why would such a strategy coming from a mainstream candidate necessarily be worse and a lost cause? It may well be, but I am trying to understand why we know that for a fact and what needs to happen to change this situation?

[geek tragedy]

120. Ted Rall is a piece of shit, pure and simple.

Post 9/11, he viciously bashed 9/11 widows and firemen who lost their brothers in the event.

He is a left-wing mirror image of Annthrax Coulter. They both can go to hell.

[mitchum]

123. Is Rall still ripping off John Holstrom's cartooning style?

I haven't really paid attention to Rall since he was advocating that Democrats forgo a primary battle.

[JohnLocke]

130. Here's Rall "cartoon" the day after 9/11

[geek tragedy]

131. Some of Ted Ral's cartoons . . .

He advocates terrorism:


He bashes women who lost their husbands in 9/11:


Note the obscene reference to Marianne Pearl.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

150. Holy Shit! He DID advocate terrorism there!

What an ass.

[redqueen]

190. What... no "progressives" showing up here to defend Rall's advocation of

terrorism?

[bobbyboucher]

149. Just plain dumb and uninformed, yet somewhat typical, bullshit.

Rall is an all out pacifist, way left-leaning liberal, or so it seems. Even so, this comic seems a bit over the top. It sounds a little bit GOPish, mixed with a little Nader.

He's got his facts wrong. As a matter of fact, he makes the mistake every GOP liar would make. He implies that Kerry said in his congessional testimony that he (Kerry) personally participated in all the atrocities he cites, and that he (Kerry) says that every soldier participated in those atrocities. Both of which are not true.

[Bush was AWOL]

209. Ted Rall is a scumbag who will do anything to make money

and get attention. Who gives a shit about this loser.