Anti-Semitism versus Anti-Zionism

[ThorsteinVeblen]

Anti-Semitism equates Jews with rats.

Anti-Semitism seriously maintains that Jews eat Christian and Muslim babies.

Anti-Semitism holds that Jews rot a society from the inside out.

Anti-Semitism equates Jews with disease.

Anti-Semitism always ends in violence against Jews.

Anti-Semitism holds that Jews are Demonic children of Satan.



Anti-Zionism holds that Zionism is European imperialism and that history has proved imperialism wrong.

Anti-Zionism holds that a nation based on preferences for people of certain religous or ethnic identities is fundamentally wrong.

Anti-Zionism holds that collective punishment by a government of a certain ethnic group for actions of individuals in that group is wrong.

Anti-Zionism holds that transference of a certain ethnic group off of land they currently live on is wrong.

Anti-Zionism holds that the settlement of land occupied after a war is wrong.


Notice how the language differs. Notice the application of logic in one, emotion in the other. Notice the universal principles in one, the ethnic based bigotry in the other. Notice the brutal rheotoric in one, the simply stated ethical principals in the other. Notice the war in one, the peace in the other.

The Jewish people are not even mentioned, nor need to be, by the Anti-Zionist. The ethnic identity of the parties in question are incidental.

[molly]

1. Anti-Semitism is subtle and deadly

[molly]

2. Anti-Zionism holds that the settlement of land

occupied after a war is wrong. I guess we should give America back to England?

[ThorsteinVeblen]

3. No, but perhaps we should give it back to the Indians

[Wwagsthedog]

7. ROFL

n/t

:thumbsup:

[madrchsod]

4. back to the indians

would be better.....

[ThorsteinVeblen]

5. And England would have been wrong

if it had claimed Sri Lanka as an English homeland, claimed all the land, put all the indigenous people on a boat to India, built settlements and gave government tax breaks to people from England who moved there.

[newyorican]

6. That would be America back to the native population...

but there is a wrinkle, several actually, with that analogy.

The main one being that this is the wrong century for conquest and colonization. The values espoused in the 21st Century have declared that form of Land aquisition verboten behavior, for civilized countries that is.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

9. Cheers.

But we can suffciently call the acts of conquest and colonization in the 19th century immoral.

There is a hierarchy of values.

[tinnypriv]

26. This is a joke, right?

[Dirk39]

8. Hello from Germany!

I think the arguments you've listed simply ignore history.
The Antisemits have constructed the jews as a "race". And they have acted and still act based on this construction. This construction has become a fact through history. Maybe this sounds naive, but if I would start a kind of theory that people with brown eyes are responsible for all the evil in this world, I would be an idiot. If millions of people would agree with me and act upon this and would kill 6 million people with brown eyes, having brown eyes would never be the same.
It's the same with racism. If people with a black skin after hundreds of years of racism would start to consider themselves being a race and start acting upon this, as questionable as it might be, it has nothing in common with white people starting to claim, they are the "superior race". The jews did it on defence. It's a reacton and a somehow legitime reaction. There are about 13 million jews living in the world today. And they have every reason to be afraid and to defend Israel by any means. And my impression is that a lot of people, and esp. left-wing people (I'm leftwing too) completely lack the empathy that should be just natural here. I can't judge about Sharon and I can't judge about what's right or wrong to solve that conflict and I can't judge about the Palestinians. But peopl who use the arguments you use, just try to completely neutralize history. It's really like in my example of people with brown eyes, it's like after millions of people where killed because they have brown eyes and as a reaction they build one place in the world, where they are safe, you start calling them racists.

"Anti-Zionism holds that a nation based on preferences for people of certain religous or ethnic identities is fundamentally wrong."
And Antisemitism is still so alive in the world today, you find it in every western culture, in Germany as in the USA, it's the definite paranoia and as long as this pest isn't erased, everyone is allowed to criticize Israel, but noone is allowed to call Israel a "racist" or imperialistic state.
Greetings from Germany,
Dirk

[ThorsteinVeblen]

11. History does not give license to anyone to oppress

an ethnic class of people. It does not matter if the oppressor has historically been the victim of oppression or not.

Or are you arguing for exceptions?

Are you arguing that oppression is okay if you have been the victim before?

[Dirk39]

13. For me it matters...

and in a way I'm asking myself one question:
there are so many racist societies in this world, who never were victims, but still going on doing what they are doing. Like the USA, where black people in the future, if it goes on like this, can be sure, that one out of three will get into prison. A dozens of examples come to my mind. But why the hell is Israel, this little little Israel, the most favorite target of "anti-imperialists" - wherever they live. Why are people so obsessed with Israel. Maybe for them it's because they were victims before. Maybe look back at the way, a lot of jewish german speaking people - Kafka might be the most moving example - were thinking about Zionism, before the Shoa started. Kafka was "smelling" it long before, and the reason, they started to support Zionism.
And in a way, people seem to smell today, that Israel is weak and this provokes their aggressive thoughts.

"Or you arguing that oppression is okay if you have been the victim before?"

In an ideal world, I wouldn't, but in the world, we live in, I admit doing so. Even all pragmatism seems to be forgotten, when it comes to Israel.
Dirk

[ThorsteinVeblen]

15. the favorite target of Anti-Imperialists

"But why the hell is Israel, this little little Israel, the most favorite target of "anti-imperialists"

Because Israel is considered European. Israel is part of the Western World. Liberalism is consistantly guilty of looking at the Western World before other cultures - the theory is that you pluck the log out of your own eye before you go criticising the splinters in everyone else's eyes.

The same thing happened when Britan was in India.

The same thing is happening with the US in Iraq.

The rhetoric against the U.S. in Iraq is no less severe than the rhetoric against Israel.

[Dirk39]

19. Maybe I'm getting cheap now...

but the USA, striking back after being oppressed by blacks, Native-Americans, Vietnam and Cuba for centuries and after the Bin-Ladden-terrorists did overtake their charming koran-schools in Afghanistan?
Yes, Israel is considered european. Although I just remember when there was a thread here about Israel maybe wants to join the E.U. all those anti-imperialists were just annoyed that such a barbarian society could even think about this...

But the ones, who were killing the european jews were Europeans, too. And they have erased the most important european culture since the renaissance, 'cause the german jews and the german speaking jews were the most important part of that culture.
They have destroyed the psychoanalitic movement, they have destroyed european socialism, they have destroyed european philosophy.
And now people, who feel related to the western world, defend mindblown palestinian terrorists as freedom fighters against Israel?
Dirk

[ThorsteinVeblen]

31. Calling them terrorists begs the question

"mindblown palestinian terrorists as freedom fighters against Israel"

The Arabs weren't terrorists under the Ottoman empire.

Palestinian Terrorism is a reaction against Zionism.

Furthermore "Terrorism" is a function of political status and not of culture or race. We can see proof of this in the acts of Jewish terrorists against the British during their occupation of Palestine.

91 people died and 45 people were injured in the 1946 bombing of the King David Hotel by Menachem Begin (who later became Prime Minister of Israel) and Irgun.

Were these Jewish bombers "terrorists" or "freedom fighters". If Menachem Begin was considered a criminal, why was he allowed to later become Prime Minister?

[The Magistrate]

10. Mr. Veblen, Sir

There are some flaws in your strawmen here.

To begin with your "Anti-Zionism" list: only the first has any relevance peculiar to the question. The identification of Zionism, the effort to establish a Jewish state in the Near East, with European Imperialism, is a legitimate, if debateable, point, with a degree of specificity relating to the issue. The others are general charges against the nature of political and social order throughout the world, and human behavior throughout recorded history. The idea that nations are based on any other thing than shared ethnic identity is nonsense: only a handful of existing nations are not so based, and these are all the product of colonial immigration that displaced an indiginous populace. The remaining three, for better or worse, have been the usual practice of humans throughout history, as you well know. For the last half-century or so, there has been some attempt to alter these norms; it remains to be seen whether that attempt will yet take. Certainly none of these actions are peculiar to "Zionism", and it is certainly arguable whether any of them, particularly the charge of collective punishment, have any application to the situation in the conflict of Israel and Arab Palestine.

Your roster of "Anti-Semitism" leaves out one of the greatest and most lingering allegations: that Jews hold greater allegiance to Jewish identity than to nationality, and therefore can never be trusted in national life, as they will never place the nation above all else. This, unfortunately, is a staple charge nowadays in "Anti-Zionist" agitation as well. How often has it been alleged, even here in this forum, that Jewish organizations, and Jewish individuals, in the United States, place a higher premium on allegiance to Israel than allegiance to the United States? It is a staple of much denunciation of A.I.P.A.C., P.N.A.C., etc.

There is, sad to say, a good deal more overlap between the two tendencies you attempt to seperate than there ought to be. Certainly "Anti-Zionism" often serves as a flag of convenience for Anti-Semitism.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

12. I beg to differ - My man is fireproof.

Please note when I speak of "Anti-Zionism" I am speaking of the argument elucidated by the intellectuals on the American Left. I am not referring to the half-baked arguments seen here sometimes or the Anti-Semitism of Saudi Arabia or Egypt sometimes disguised as Anti-Zionism.

I am drawing a clear line between the two and providing a tool with which to differentiate questionable arguments. Any argument which refers to "Jews" is immediately suspect. Any argument which uses the terms Likud or Likunik or Israeli may be legitimate or not. Any argument stated using purely leftist principles which makes no mention of the ethnic identities involved in a given struggle is usually beyond suspition.


"How often has it been alleged, even here in this forum, that Jewish organizations, and Jewish individuals, in the United States, place a higher premium on allegiance to Israel than allegiance to the United States? "

How often has it been alleged, even here in this forum, that Cuban nationals in Miami place a higher premium on allegiance to their former country than allegiance to the United States and are motivated purely by political motives that may not be in the interest of the United States?

How often was it alleged that Catholics placed a higher preminum on allegiance to their Pope than allegiance to the United States before the 1970's?

No educated, intellectual, non-idiot Anti-Zionist would ever imply that ALL JEWS who are US citizens place Israel above the US. But the fact remains that some Likudniks do. People like William Kristol advocate Pro-Israeli positions that are not in the interest of the United States at all. What is good for Israel may not be good for the US and people like William Kristol who try to overtly and blatently equate the two countries are doing a disservice to the US and Israel and American Jews.


"Certainly "Anti-Zionism" often serves as a flag of convenience for Anti-Semitism."

Yes, but not on the American Left.

"Certainly none of these actions are peculiar to "Zionism", and it is certainly arguable whether any of them, particularly the charge of collective punishment, have any application to the situation in the conflict of Israel and Arab Palestine."

This is precisly the point. You must place American "Anti-Zionism" within the context of the leftist critique of Western Civilization. That is where it is most correctly viewed. In the American leftist tradition there is no history of Anti-Semitism.

As for collective punishment, the UN considers martial law and checkpoints illegal under international law precisly because they are COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2002/israel06262002_2.html

[The Magistrate]

17. Martial Law And Checkpoints, Sir

Are the basic tools of counter-insurgency, serving the same function of interdicting movement of personnel and supplies in such a conflict as bombardment of road and rail communication serves in conventional conflict. They do not constitute collective punishment per se, and will never disappear from the military lexicon where irregular forces form a leading party to any conflict.

The allegations you reference against Catholics do constitute a form of bigotry, on with sturdy roots in the United States, and routinely denounced as such. It is something very different from, say, denunciations of elements of Catholic dogma, or news coverage of the persions of certain priests, and the actions of certain bishops to conceal same, which some attempt also to denounce as bigotry against Catholics. There is no particular deep and traditional bigotry against Cubans, and it is certainly truth both that some Cuban exiles in this country do display more concern with their abhorence than any other political matter, as well as that many Cubans here do not do so.

It does sometimes seem here that any who uphold the legitimacy of the existance of Israel, its right to exist, and its actions in a state of war none can reasonably deny exist, can expect to be denounced as Likudniks and worse, as a routine tactic of debate. Doubtless many on the other side of the question feel they can expect to be denounced in mirrored wise, and perhaps we are all a little gun-shy in our subjective impressions, and prone to take the most extreme recollection for the general case.

One of the weaknesses of what you refer to as "the leftist critique of Western Civilization" is that this is itself a product of Western Civilization. The conduct of the West is criticized, not by measure against some different standard, but for the gap between its actuality and its own stated ideals. It would be well that this were remembered, when the urge to defend some traditional atrocity or obscurantism grows too strong.

While there may be no long tradition of Anti-Semitism among the left in the United States, there has certainly been, for several decades, such a concentration on the evils of Israel specifically, that such a tradition may well be taking form. It would certainly have long extra-left cultural roots, for Anti-Semitism was part of the ordinary mental furniture of the upper and academic classes in our country prior to the Second World War, and these are, after all, the roots of origin for many radical leftists from the sixties on.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

21. Argue with the UN and Amnesty International - not me.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2002/israel06262002_2.html

"The conduct of the West is criticized, not by measure against some different standard, but for the gap between its actuality and its own stated ideals. "


Ah, but you are assuming the post-modern claim of cultural relativism (i.e. all "stated ideals" are of equal value) which is in itself a product of Western Culture.

You, and the post-modern analysis, are fundamentally mistaken.

There is a hierarchy. And a culture that has achieved the capacity to critique itself holds a higher position in the hierarchy of cultures than those cultures that haven't.

The leftist critique of Western Civilization holds a superior position to 19th century Western culture, the American right wing, Israeli conduct and cultures that exist in places like Saudi Arabia.


"While there may be no long tradition of Anti-Semitism among the left in the United States, there has certainly been, for several decades, such a concentration on the evils of Israel specifically, that such a tradition may well be taking form"

Pure conjecture and inconsistant with history.

"for Anti-Semitism was part of the ordinary mental furniture of the upper and academic classes in our country prior to the Second World War, and these are, after all, the roots of origin for many radical leftists from the sixties on. "

As was anti-Catholicism, bigotry against Asians and bigotry against Blacks.

The roots of the American Left are fundamentally Jewish-European and Jewish-American.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

22. Bingo

"The roots of the American Left are fundamentally Jewish-European and Jewish-American."

They have my adoration

[ThorsteinVeblen]

23. God Bless 'em

Emma Goldman and Edmund Husserl are my heros.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

25. No finer American than Abbie Hoffman

Gramps gave me "steal this book" as a kid...

here are the results.

Bill

[The Magistrate]

24. Look More Carefully, My Friend

The idea all stated ideals are equal in value is not congenial to me in the least. It was my point that this capability of self-criticism has to be born in mind. While that capability is not unique to the West, for it can be found within the Confucian and Taoist traditions, certainly, it ought to be recalled by those of us of the West in our criticism of our own traditions, when tempted to rate our own traditions cheaply.

As for the rest, Sir, one man's pure conjecture is another man's reasoned conclusion from experience, and in this particular matter there is no absolute standard to which we may either of us make an appeal for absolute validation against the other. The roots of leftism in this country were also once sunk deeply into working class elements, many immigrant, some native, by no means all particularly Jewish. In the last half of the last century, upper class and academic elements have come to predominate, largely owing to the divorce between these and the labor movement during the Cold War, and particularly since the Civil Rigts movement, and Viet Nam.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

27. Touche

"Sir, one man's pure conjecture is another man's reasoned conclusion from experience"

Always a pleasure Magistrate.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

14. Speaking of Straw Men

"The idea that nations are based on any other thing than shared ethnic identity is nonsense: only a handful of existing nations are not so based, and these are all the product of colonial immigration that displaced an indiginous populace."

In what century?

maybe Zionists are a few hundred years behind in their thinking...

"Your roster of "Anti-Semitism" leaves out one of the greatest and most lingering allegations: that Jews hold greater allegiance to Jewish identity than to nationality, and therefore can never be trusted in national life, as they will never place the nation above all else."

Like Dennis Kuchunic (sorry sp?).

"How often has it been alleged, even here in this forum, that Jewish organizations, and Jewish individuals, in the United States, place a higher premium on allegiance to Israel than allegiance to the United States? It is a staple of much denunciation of A.I.P.A.C., P.N.A.C., etc."

No, as much to the United States as Israel - so how does that change anything?...The US more than Israel....how does that change anything?...what a self centered statement.

The arcane logic of ethnicity and nationalism...you give your age away

[ThorsteinVeblen]

16. Noon_Blue_Apples Rocks!

"Your roster of "Anti-Semitism" leaves out one of the greatest and most lingering allegations: that Jews hold greater allegiance to Jewish identity than to nationality, and therefore can never be trusted in national life, as they will never place the nation above all else."

Or like Paul Wellstone?

""The idea that nations are based on any other thing than shared ethnic identity is nonsense: only a handful of existing nations are not so based, and these are all the product of colonial immigration that displaced an indiginous populace."

"In what century?"

Exactly! There is a real hierarchy of values and to defend an act of oppression because that is "how it worked in the past" is to fail to recognize that we have transcended that paradigm. We CAN recognize the FAILURES of the past and vow not to repeat the same mistakes.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

20. You forget...

to some we are loathsome idealists.

Silly Canadians

Bill

[DuctapeFatwa]

18. Interesting that those same olden times when colonization was ok

Were also times when all kinds of racism was ok, including anti-Jewishness.

I am saying anti-Jewish on purpose, because too often people say "anti-Semitic" when what they really mean to say is that it is anti-Jewish to criticize the behavior of a bunch of ethnic Europeans who are attempting to colonize and oppressing a semitic people.

In my opinion, neither racism, nor oppression nor colonization are inherent to Jews, nor do I associate those things with Jews.

Screaming "anti-Semite" at anyone who dares criticize the thugs hired to run the mangy pitbull that the US keeps down next to countries whose natural resources it plans to seize may be credible to Jerry Falwell and Tom DeLay, whose idea of an ideal outcome is hurling Jews into a lake of fire, but since I am opposed to hurling people into lakes of fire, it doesn't carry much weight with me.

There are plenty of Jews who put their lives on the line every day doing what they can to help one person, ten people, and who in my opinion, deserve to live in a country they can be proud of, not a glorified military base cum gangland parking lot.

Calling opposition to the crimes of the sharon regime anti-Jewish is an insult to all Jews.

[Lithos]

28. Locking

Not based on a recent news or op-ed article.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Lithos]

29. Moving

Moved thread to GD as most of the commentary dealt with Israel and the US. If this changes to include I/P debate, then this thread will be locked again.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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