Question for those who don't think Al Queda exists

[rumguy]

Who the hell are you going to vote for? Kerry believes AQ exists. So does Kucinich. Even Nadar believes AQ exists.

Some of you think and act like AQ is wholly a construct of our evil CIA. I think that is foolhardy and stupid. Yeah, I've read all the articles about how we funded Bin Laden back in the 80s. Yeah we helped create this monster. But it was a monster that got away from us.

AQ exists. It is real. It is fueled in large part by radical fundamentalist Islam.

So who are you going to vote for. Surely Kerry and Nadar have access to the same information that you do. So they are either stupid, or they don't care, hardly presidential material. So who will you vote for?

[bluestateguy]

1. I don't know who said that

I certainly didn't. I have always supported going after Al Qaeda, including military action.

[rumguy]

5. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=619982&mesg_id=619982

[bryant69]

The fun in conspiracy theories

is in making vague statements that don't really refer to any specifics. Asking them directly to defend their beliefs takes all the fun out of it.

Oh, but if you question a conspiracy theory, you must be a freeper who believes everything the government says. Be prepared to be asked "So you believe what the Bush Administration tells you?" Good way to duck the Kerry/Kucinich question.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[NMDemDist2]

2. hey Rumguy--I must have missed those posts

are their really people here who don't believe AQ exists?

[JohnLocke]

3. Yes.

There are a few.

[rumguy]

4. yes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=619982&mesg_id=619982

I've seen this belief here quite often.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

14. "quite often"??

That's total bullshit. I cruise these boards every day from 9-5, and I can count the number of instances on two hands. Out of some 45,000+ people, that ain't bad.

[Solon]

6. Well AQ was a CIA front, at least its predecessor was...

now we are suffering the blowback from the short-sightedness of the Reagan/Bush1 administrations.

[greatauntoftriplets]

8. Yes, according to Richard Clarke.

Al Qaeda is one of our creations. I have another book to read, forget the author's name at the moment, called "Blowback" about what you are saying.

[rumguy]

9. It's not like we wholly created it though

We helped fund it, against the Soviets, but they seeds were already planted...

[rfranklin]

7. It's not that it doens't exist...

and I've never seen anyone say that here. What may be true is that the growth of Al Qaeda was nutured by various interested parties in governments around the globe such as the U.S.A., Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran. This is not to say that entire governments or agencies such as the CIA are behind the group or that they support the current activities of Al Qaeda.

[rumguy]

10. That's reasonable, and it leaves open the door to what we don't know

Yet it doesn't lay all the blame at the foot of the CIA, as if we some how created it from the ground up like some kinda Frankenstien...

[Kinkistyle]

40. I am of similar opinion.

I think the controversy is who exactly is supporting Al Qaeda, what are they're true motives, and what is REALLY being done to remedy the situation. Could the Saudi royalty actually be supporting AQ making friendsy-friends with Bush? Who knows.

[Kinkistyle]

41. I am of similar opinion.

I think the controversy is who exactly is supporting Al Qaeda, what are they're true motives, and what is REALLY being done to remedy the situation. Could the Saudi royalty actually be supporting AQ making friendsy-friends with Bush? Who knows.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

11. i will vote for kerry.

i don't believe everything i hear about al qaeda. are you considering al qaeda an explicit organisation or a movement? that is my problem, they are made out to be a structured organisation with rank and file. if anything i believe the al qaeda ties are a bit over blown. what about the berg killing? how do we know they were 'al qaeda'? what evidence is there?

[rumguy]

15. organization, movement, whatever...

It does exist, a widely scattered, loosely knit group that is united by an extreme ideology...

Yeah, there's fear-mongering by the Bushies and the media.

But AQ does exist.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

19. maybe you need to define al qaeda?

before you claim it exists so that we are all on the same page as to what 'al qaeda' is.

[rumguy]

26. I don't have to define anything to you

All I will do is point out the facts that show AQ exists, and you can keep raising questions, and that's fine...but if you, or anyone else crosses the line and claims AQ doesn't exist, I'm gonna call you on it.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

30. all i am asking is what you define as 'al qaeda'.

is it silly to want something defined properly if you want to have a discussion about it? i don't think it is.

as we have seen here in this thread, people have varying ideas about what they believe al qaeda is. so for you to claim that they do exist you need to be able to define what it is that does indeed exist, otherwise not everyone is on the same page. cut the semantics and give a definition what you believe exists.

[rumguy]

33. Two things

1. You can believe in the existence of something without knowing exactly how it works. This is why we have intelligence agencies.

2. I already provided a loose definition above.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

38. ok...

an organisation is much different than a movement.

why do you start a thread claiming al qaeda exists when you don't bother to have any evidence prepared to back up your claims? i am a fence sitter as far as the whole al qaeda thing goes, but i am skeptical. to claim something as true or false you need facts.

you seem to want to be very unspecific about things that should require a great deal of specificity.

[rumguy]

42. you're just blowing up smoke at this point

organisation, movement - it's a loose organisation within a larger movement they are trying to foment...

Duh.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

49. so you definition of 'al qaeda' is....

"a loose organisation within a larger movement"

so, al qaeda is a movement and an organisation. would this be comparable to say christianity (please forgive the crude analogy, we are talking strictly organistation)? christianity is a movement, but has specific organisations setup that work to maintain/further its agenda. is this acceptable analogy to you?

and please, discussions can be had without trying to belittle each other.

[rumguy]

60. yeah I guess that analogy is ok

[notadmblnd]

12. oh it exists...

it's just not "who" we've been told it is.

[ugarte]

13. Al-Qaeda is not imaginary

On the other hand, if it didn''t exist, Bush/Ashcroft would have to invent it to justify their agenda.

Bush and the Neocons love Al-Qaeda. AQ is their raison d'etre.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[radwriter0555]

18. Kerry isn't stupid/apathetic or worthless. He's a good man who is decent,

kind, honorable, forthright, independent and honest.

He's FINE material for a good, liberal president who can right the atrocities of the bush regime.

[radwriter0555]

17. "THEY" exist per se. But there is like a couple hundred of them, and they

CERTAINLY aren't going to storm our shores, rape our wives, steal our children and convert all to islam.

It's just SILLY to run around, waving arms and shrieking about al queda.

IN SPITE of the idiocy of all that is BUSH, the USA continues to have some of the finest protections on the planet, including our CIA and FBI, and especially now given that they've told bush to fuck off and aren't covering his ass anymore, they will NOT permit another attack to happen. These are PEOPLE after all, true Americans who didn't sign up for the money, but because their work is who they are. They are here to protect us, and themselves.

I'm not worried at ALL.

[Misinformed01]

20. I am on that thread; I never said AQ didn't exist, I said that you

do not know who killed Nick Berg in that video.

That has nothing to do with whether or not AQ exists.

[rumguy]

22. I don't want to debate Nick Berg in this thread

I think it is more probable that Nick Berg was killed by AQ than by the United States. You think otherwise...

So be it..

[Misinformed01]

24. No, I don't think otherwise

I said...again...."you don't know."

As far as I know, nor does anyone else on DU.

Jesus Christ, why do people confuse "opinions" with actual facts? Americans were NEVER given the facts about that video. We also have never been given much information on Al Queda.

I personally believe they do exist; but, I think we are given so much propaganda regarding their acts that it has become impossible to tell fact from GOP myths.

[rumguy]

25. Well you don't know either...then

I do know this. Nick's father buried his son. His father blamed Bush for creating the mess in Iraq. But I've never heard him question the fact that AQ carried it out...

Most of the evidence points to AQ. Do I have absolute metaphysical certainty of it? No. But I'd bet it was AQ.

[Misinformed01]

28. Thank you. I have never understood

the insistence of DUers to know what the hell is going on with this AQ shit we are being fed in the media. It's ridiculous to assume this lying administration is giving us any real information.

So, to answer your question, yes...I believe in terrorist organizations..but, I don't buy all that we are told about them right now.

Sad...I hate living in fear of our own nimnods.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. Yes, Al Qaeda exists, and yes, I'll be voting for Kerry, BUT....

...I do have some rather large issues with the rest of the legend created by the folks in the Pentagon.

Al Qaeda was originally a rather small organization headed by Osama Bin Laden. Yes, they were supplied and armed by the CIA while they were in Afghanistan during the Afghan-Soviet War. Over the years, Al Qaeda grew large enough to build and maintain training camps in Afghanistan with the Taliban's blessing.

But, do I personally believe that Osama and Al Qaeda are now the masterminds behind a huge global terror network? I know the NeoCons would like the American people to believe that to be true because it justifies their efforts to build a vast national internal security network, known as Homeland Security, complete with an all-encompassing national database. Based on everything we know to date about the NeoCons, does anyone really believe that this huge operation is designed ONLY for tracking/controlling terrorists?

What I do believe is Al Qaeda was a very willing organization to blame for 911, despite Osama's initial denial of any involvement. Do I believe that they control a vast terrorist organization? No, I don't. I think that there are hundreds of small terrorist groups that may or may not be in communication with Al Qaeda. By definition, they avoid large networks and communications that can be easily traced.

Do I believe that Al Qaeda was responsible for 911? I really don't know, and neither does anyone else. All we have is the word of the White House/Pentagon squatters that Al Qaeda was involved. They can't even find a paper trail to link the alleged hijackers to Al Qaeda. They also can't claim that they know the identities of the 19 people because most, if not all, were using fake IDs. Why did some of the hijackers attend U. S. military schools? Additionally, why would Osama initially deny that he had anything to do with 911? Why wouldn't he immediately claim responsibility? Too many questions, and not enough time to answer them.

[rumguy]

23. Osama admitted it...he admitted he was behind 9/11

It's on videotape....

[Bhaisahab]

27. maybe he did. but...

... is there any evidence that will stand in a court of law that points towards osama and al qaeda as being the planners, executors and benefactors of 911? just asking...

[rumguy]

29. that question is so broad it means nothing

[Bhaisahab]

36. let me rephrase it then....

what evidence is publicly available that ties the 911 attacks to osama and al qaeda?
i aint a law student, but i dont think claiming to have committed a crime on videotape is automatic proof of guilt. what do you think?

[sangh0]

98. A confession is as close to a conviction as can be

Many have been convicted when the only evidence of their guilt was a confession. Confessions are considered powerful evidence by most juries

[SheepyMcSheepster]

31. do you have a link to the transcript of the video tape?

[rumguy]

34. It was widely reported in the media

He talks about the planning of it, and how it surprised him the extent of the damage, that he wasn't sure if the towers would collapse or not.

I'm not gonna find it for you. You can find it yourself. I'm surprised you don't remember it....

[Forkboy]

44. that would be a "no"

[rumguy]

48. Ahh...you have to do your own research forkboy

I'm just surprised how quickly you forget. Maybe you were never paying attention, I don't know...

[Forkboy]

52. I paid attention

I remember the video well

[SheepyMcSheepster]

68. i have been looking for a transcript.

i am having trouble finding one, maybe you could help?

[rumguy]

72. Here

"The tape is approximately one hour long and contains three different segments..."

snip

" Shaykh: Hundreds of people used to doubt you and few only would follow you until this huge event happened. Now hundreds of people are coming out to join you. I remember a vision by Shaykh Salih Al-((Shuaybi)). He said: "There will be a great hit and people will go out by hundreds to Afghanistan." I asked him (Salih): "To Afghanistan?" He replied, "Yes." According to him, the only ones who stay behind will be the mentally impotent and the liars (hypocrites). I remembered his saying that hundreds of people will go out to Afghanistan. He had this vision a year ago. This event discriminated between the different types of followers.

UBL: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for."

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/tape.transcript/

[Media_Lies_Daily]

82. See my post #80.

[leesa]

37. Oh brother! And you bought that government production??

You don't have any idea who Al Qaeda is or if they exist. You just want to believe they do because it justifies the revenge we have taken against a few alleged criminals.
The truth is we don't know who Al Qaeda is and my suspicion is that it is a boogieman created by powerful folks around the world and in our government (Dems too) to provide justification for the nefarious deeds we choose to do. Remember they have already caught 'Al Qaeda' who are members of other groups, like Moussad.

"it was widely reported in the media" that OBL said he did it. The tapes of him DO NOT say that however (at least the translations). He has never admitted it. You were TOLD by ABCNNNBCCBSFaux...but it was never said by OBL. The tapes are very lousy, obviously faked evidence that would not be allowed in a court of law.

[rumguy]

39. Well let's see

Osama was on the tape admitting it. Funny how our government was able to fake that tape, along with attacks on 9/11 and the Arab Media doesn't say anything about it? Hmmm....

You have NO PROOF that tape was faked. So don't come at me with any requests....

[Media_Lies_Daily]

51. You never responded to his charge, did you? You posted that the...

...tape proved Osama admitted it, but you never provided any proof to back up your assertion.

Ball's in your court, right where it's always been. You made the assertion, now prove it.

[rumguy]

55. That tape exists....you just don't want to admit it...

It was shown far and wide throughout the world...if there was even a sliver of evidence that it was FAKED it would be used as a tool to discredit the United States.

Bottom line you have NO EVIDENCE it is not real. The only evidence is in your mind.

[Forkboy]

We know the tape exists

but you should prove it says what YOU claim it does.It's a fairly simple thing to do...really,it is.

[rumguy]

61. Not just me FORKBOY

Me and pretty much the whole world including Kucinch and Nadar...

Believe me if there was evidence that the US faked that video to frame an Arab to start wars in the ME that evidence would be used to discredit us...that's just common sense...

[Forkboy]

64. All the more reason then,RUMGUY,(why all caps?)

that it should be easy to provide us a transcript to end this argument.If it says what you say it says you'd really be able to claim "I fucking won it!".

And wouldn't that make you feel all vindicated and stuff? I think it would.

[rumguy]

70. Here's it is

"The tape is approximately one hour long and contains three different segments..."

snip

" Shaykh: Hundreds of people used to doubt you and few only would follow you until this huge event happened. Now hundreds of people are coming out to join you. I remember a vision by Shaykh Salih Al-((Shuaybi)). He said: "There will be a great hit and people will go out by hundreds to Afghanistan." I asked him (Salih): "To Afghanistan?" He replied, "Yes." According to him, the only ones who stay behind will be the mentally impotent and the liars (hypocrites). I remembered his saying that hundreds of people will go out to Afghanistan. He had this vision a year ago. This event discriminated between the different types of followers.

UBL: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for."

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/tape.transcript/

[Forkboy]

74. There now,was that so hard?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

81. Please see my post #80.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

65. I know the tape is real...I just want you to back up your assertion...

...that Osama admitted responsibility for the attacks on 911.

Is that too difficult a question for you to answer? After all, you did start this thread, didn't you? Don't you want to prove that you're correct?

[rumguy]

71. Here

Fine...I guess you get the jollies out of making me run out and get obvious things that all Americans should remember...

"The tape is approximately one hour long and contains three different segments..."

snip

" Shaykh: Hundreds of people used to doubt you and few only would follow you until this huge event happened. Now hundreds of people are coming out to join you. I remember a vision by Shaykh Salih Al-((Shuaybi)). He said: "There will be a great hit and people will go out by hundreds to Afghanistan." I asked him (Salih): "To Afghanistan?" He replied, "Yes." According to him, the only ones who stay behind will be the mentally impotent and the liars (hypocrites). I remembered his saying that hundreds of people will go out to Afghanistan. He had this vision a year ago. This event discriminated between the different types of followers.

UBL: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for."

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/tape.transcript/

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. So, tell me...does the "Osama" in that tape look ANYTHING like the...

...the "Osama" we've seen in previous AS WELL AS subsequent pics and videos?

<http://theunjustmedia.com/Al-Qaeda/American%20government%20lie's%20about%20osama%20bin%20laden.htm>

There was a reason that I wanted you to provide the transcript of the video you kept referencing. I just wanted to make sure that you were referencing the tape that I thought you were. The debate tactic I just used is called "give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves".

What was that about "winning"?

[Jose Diablo]

86. The Osama on the tape seems kinda fat compared to the original;

Also the tape OBL has a big flared nose. I don't think thats OBL.

[rumguy]

92. It was Osama

There is no doubt. I have read about those that say he is to fat in the video. These are the same people who said there was a military cap in the Berg video.

Like a said before, and this is undeniable, if there was a shred of evidence that the US faked that tape, hired a fat Osama stand-in, and used it to frame an Arab man in order launch wars in the ME the Arab press would be all over this. It would be used as a tool to discredit and weaken the United States.

And by the way your link doesn't work...

[rumguy]

94. Oh and that is purely your opinion...no one credible shares this opinion

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. Osama originally denied involvement within days of the 911 attacks....

...and the video came out when, exactly?

[radwriter0555]

89. No he didn't. He said he was PROUD of it and he KNEW about it....

and the FBI apparently agrees with me, since, if you look at their most wanted website, they don't MENTION 9.11 on it, on the OBL page.

BTW, Al queda never took credit for 9.11.. ever. On any website, in any letter or on any video tape.

[Pastiche423]

95. Was that the fat Osama or the skinny Osama?

That videotape you refer to was debunked shortly after is came out to the mainstream.

Maybe you are too young to remember it?

[rumguy]

96. Debunked by whom?

And if you give links don't give garbage links from sources with NO crediblity.

[Pastiche423]

99. Links

http://www.counterpunch.org/yusuf1.html

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/01/Laden/tapes9_Monitor.html

http://911review.org/Wiki/BinLadenConfession.shtml

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/specialeffects.html

http://thomasmc.com/0121jb.htm

http://www.robert-fisk.com/khurshid_about_usama_video.htm

http://www.americanfreepress.net/12_21_01/Bin_Laden_Video/bin_laden_video.html

[Bhaisahab]

32. I dont think AQ exists

in the sense that a corporation or a government exists. the organization was wiped out- politically, militarily and economically- during the afghan war and post 911 clampdowns.
it exists, however, as an ideological rallying point, a symbol, if you will. the name Al Qaeda is used by diverse islamic terror groups to gain recognition for their deeds. these days, you dont get to hear "al qaeda" so much, but "al qaeda-afilliated" whenever the media describeds terror groups, and they themselves describe their organizations. seems to me every islamic terrorist is al-qaeda affiliated. which is true in an ideological sense, coz their agenda is the same as al-qaeda's was.
the perpetuation of the al-qaeda myth also serves the interests of the neo-cons, who can put before the public a name they recognize for any terror act.
and that's what i think.

[rumguy]

35. that's fair enough - but I think it is more centralized than that

not centralized like a government or corporation...but I still think there is more direction to it, and that direction is coming from Osama and his people, as best they can...

but it has splintered and sprung up all over...you're right it is an ideology and a plan of action that anyone can pick up and proclaim at any time and any place...

[Jade Fox]

77. You may be right...

but where are you getting your information?

For a lot of us the question is: who do you believe about al-Quaeda when
we've been lied to and lied to, and no one in the government has ever
given a real explaination of 9/11?

[Spentastic]

43. Straw Man tastic

Do you believe in Mickey Mouse?

Allowing a preception of an opponent to dictate ones actions is folly. Al Quaeda may well exist but it would appear that membership is only conferred after an anti American / western attack.

However the media and government would have us believe that radical islam is about to overthrow the west. That' about as likely as Mickey Mouse taking part in the olympics.

[rumguy]

45. that's fine as long as you at least admit it exists

I have no problem with questioning our government's actions dealing with AQ...

I just want people to admit that AQ exists independent of the evil neocons. They were coming after the US when Clinton was preznit too.

[Spentastic]

54. But why?

I'll give you an example. The anecdotal "welfare mother" does exist. However she is only a problem when Republicans wish her to be. Al Quaeda are in the same category. Why do you want to subsrcibe to a point of view that only aids Republicans.

Al Quaeda are a criminal organisation who wish the U.S ill. They should be tracked down where possible and arrested. However the main way to combat terrorism is to deny them ideologically by not bombing mosques and wedding parties.

[rumguy]

57. AQ is more real than the 'welfare mothers'

in your own post you admit it...

:shrug:

[Spentastic]

75. More real?

Er, nonsense?

Al Queada, Welfare Mothers, The Red Menace, Yellow Peril, White Flight etc. etc. etc.

Why are you so keen to be scared by a bogeyman?

[rumguy]

78. It's called R-E-A-L-I-T-Y

It's called Nick Berg, it's called 9/11...

And I don't live my life in fear of AQ. I just don't like to see people pretend they don't exist...

[Spentastic]

79. Yeah Yeah Yeah

I think you'll find that you're not in fact the arbiter of reality.

[Forkboy]

47. Folks,he's not looking for any info,just an argument

He wasn't happy with yesterdays LBN thread and feels the need to continue it here today.The only answer that will satisfy is one of total agreement.

[rumguy]

50. Your right I am looking for argument - so what?

I'm happy with the way the argument went yesterday - I fucking won it! I just find it disturbing that some assert that AQ does not exist and was all made up by our evil CIA...

[Forkboy]

56. You think you won

others think they won.

[rumguy]

58. AQ is real

AQ is real, you better get used to that fact...

Time to get off the Kool Aid ol' pal...

[Forkboy]

67. Dont apologize

I understand the need to claim victory regardless of whether or not it really was.

By the way,I never claimed AQ didn't exist.

Time to get off the Kool Aid ol' pal...

Vapid,generic insult #532

[Media_Lies_Daily]

59. I'm curious...

...how does blasting other people for their opinions somehow make you a "winner" or any better than the NeoCon Junta? The NeoCons use your "debate tactics", too.

[rumguy]

62. I believe in vigorous debate...

and comparing me to the 'neocon junta' is just below the belt despicable on your part...

it says a lot about you that you would even say such a thing...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

69. No, comparing you to the NeoCon Junta says a lot about how I feel...

...about your unwillingness to prove your statements concerning Osama claiming responsibility for 911. It also says a lot about how I feel about the way you've treated other posters in this thread.

Put up or shut up. Pony up the proof or quit wasting our time being argumentative and personally insulting.

[rumguy]

73. I did put up or shut up above...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

83. And you've been shut down...see my post #80.

[rumguy]

93. I answered you above: that is your OPINION! No one shares it...

not anyone credible...

[leftofthedial]

53. I believe al Qaeda exists

but I don't believe it is what the propaganda tells us it is.

I also don't believe that much of what we "hear" from al Qaeda is authentic.

I will vote for Kerry.

[bowens43]

63. We vote for Kerry.

Kerry is the only one with a reasonable chance of getting the idiot out of office. That was an easy question.

whether or not Al Qaeda exists is irrelevant. The so called 'war-on-terror' is just one of many issues where I would prefer Kerry to the idiot.

You think that because people draw the different conclusions from the same information that one of them must be stupid?

[rumguy]

66. I do think it's stupid to say that AQ does not exist

It's burying your head in the sand...

Question past government ties to Bin Laden, right on! Question the fear-mongering by the Bushies, hell yeah!

But say AQ doesn't exist...that does strike me as stupid.

Sorry, but that is my opinion.

[bowens43]

87. Al Qeada is not a huge, well organized terrorist group

as we have been lead to believe. At most it is a few small, fairly independent groups of militants and terrorists with minimal ties and with little or no cooperation between factions, cashing in on the hysteria spewed by the bush administration. They do so by claiming ties to the 'Al-Qeada' bogey man that bush has created. The bushies then use these bogus claims to strengthen the myth in order to frighten the people into submission. Some people buy it, others don't. That doesn't make either group 'stupid'. I have no doubt that Al Qeada exits but I don't believe for a moment that they are any more or less of a threat then any of the dozens of other terrorist organizations that exist here and abroad.

[rumguy]

76. I'm outta here and here's the trancript for those that wanted it

"The tape is approximately one hour long and contains three different segments..."

snip

" Shaykh: Hundreds of people used to doubt you and few only would follow you until this huge event happened. Now hundreds of people are coming out to join you. I remember a vision by Shaykh Salih Al-((Shuaybi)). He said: "There will be a great hit and people will go out by hundreds to Afghanistan." I asked him (Salih): "To Afghanistan?" He replied, "Yes." According to him, the only ones who stay behind will be the mentally impotent and the liars (hypocrites). I remembered his saying that hundreds of people will go out to Afghanistan. He had this vision a year ago. This event discriminated between the different types of followers.

UBL: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for."

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/13/tape.transcript/

[Media_Lies_Daily]

84. You picked a good time to leave...right when I posted post #80.

[fujiyama]

85. It is clear

that Islamic extremism and terrorism is a major threat to not only the US, but the world...and that this movement and ideaology is funded and fueled by Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

However, I question what exactly the media and the government classify as "Al Qaeda". I don't think it's nearly as centralized as the administration would like to believe. I don't believe it's an organization that has a CEO per se or any real formal leadership.

I also think this administration is guilty of not taking the threat seriously before 9/11 and after. Instead we've decided the best way to win the "war on terror" is to give billions of dollars to SA and Pakistan.

[The Stranger]

88. During the McCarthy Red Scare of the 1950's no one claimed Communism

did not exist. It did. The problem was that people were so subjugated by fear and the Red Scare that they could not point out that it was being overly-simplified, caricatured, "linked" to political enemies of the McCarthyists, and horribly magnified as a domestic threat to serve pure political interests of the far right wing.

[The Stranger]

90. This article says it well.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0523/p11s02-coop.html

Debunk the myth of Al Qaeda

Its size and reach have been blown out of proportion

By Kimberly A. McCloud and Adam Dolnik

MONTEREY, CALIF. – News reports indicate that Al Qaeda, ousted from its camps in Afghanistan, is now on the loose, spreading terror around the world.

Several recent attacks have been claimed by or attributed to the terrorist network, including an assault on a Jewish synagogue in Tunisia, multiple explosions in Yemen last month (including one at the US Embassy compound), attacks in the Philippines, and a fire in the Milan metro.

But is Al Qaeda really behind all these attacks? Analysts cite differences in modus operandi compared with alleged past attacks, as well as more probable perpetrators in those recent incidents. Still, Al Qaeda is likely to be the top suspect in future incidents. Victims, including states, may even blame Al Qaeda for political reasons, namely to gain US sympathy and support.

Would-be terrorists the world over may be inspired to perpetrate attacks, seeking to feel they are part of what they perceive as a large, powerful terrorist movement. The public perception that Al Qaeda is running wild is likely to increase fear, especially among Americans.

Such concern, when translated into a heightened vigilance about one's surroundings – particularly in light of this week's warnings about future attacks in the US – may not be a completely bad thing. But unchecked public fear, taken to an extreme, could immobilize citizens, jeopardize civil liberties, and lead America into too many fights abroad.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

91. Kick for the rumguy....see my post #80.

[datasuspect]

97. ok

"AQ exists. It is real. It is fueled in large part by radical fundamentalist Islam."

actually it is fueled in large part by george bush's war policies in iraq and the middle east.