Jesus in now Irrelevant

[mopaul]

and the perfect proof of this is our own president, (?), who makes a huge deal about loving jesus. never, ever, has there ever been a greater example of a hypocrite christian, than our fearless leader.

he, and all his deluded christian followers, the ones who actually believe he was put into the white house by god, have taken the traditional jesus and all his tenets, and turned them inside out.
they are the utter antithesis of christ, and they take his name in vain with every political action.

suffer the little children to come unto me. irrelevant.
blessed are the peacemakers. irrelevant.
do unto others as you would have them do unto you. irrelevant.
turn the other cheek. irrelevant.
love thy neighbor. irrelevant.
turn your swords into plowshares. irrelevant.
the meek shall inherit the earth. irrelevant.
blessed are the poor. irrelevant.

care for the sick. feed the hungry. clothe the naked. help the oppressed. love the children. all utterly irrelevant now.

how blind are the christian bush supporters? how deluded and lost they are, how malleable and easily manipulated, how completely they have bastardized the words of christ? the idiocy of the new american bornagain bush supporting christian is staggering to behold.
and the plans they have for us all........terrifying.

[Paradise]

1. it had to be said. thanks. nt

[Flagg]

2. Jesus who ?

[Disturbed]

3. Jesus was a Socialist.

Seems that the Right Wing phony Christians have never grasped that.

[Kod478]

4. the parable of the silver pieces

As Al Franken pointed out in Lies and Lying Liars, the parable of the talents or the parable of the silver pieces is a short story that Christians like Bush justify their corporate greed on. It's found in the New Testament, Matthew 25:14-30. I don't feel like explaining it but it basically teaches to multiply your riches by any means and you're a "lazy lout" if you don't. Coincidentally, the golden rule, the beatitudes, and the danger of riches parable are also found in Matthew. In fact, the entire new testament excluding the talents parable, has a message of devaluing money and power for love and acceptance. But I guess God told GW that the talents parable is the true message of the New Testament and the rest is bullshit.

[smiley_glad_hands]

17. Exactly

[Rabrrrrrr]

34. And worse yet is that that parable isn't about money

it's about using whatever gifts one has been given and not keeping them hidden. Which is to say, not to deny those things which God has given you.

Jesus was also showing that we are free and safe to do so. The two men who made money were not chastised for taking risks, but applauded. The man who hid his talents said, when confronted, "I was afraid you would be angry if I did something wrong". SO Jesus is also telling us here that we should use our gifts, and take risks in the doing, because even if we screw up we are forgiven, which fits in very well with the rest of Jesus' teaching. Take the risk of loving your neighbor.

We don't see the right doing that, eh?

My brain is a little addled right now from lack of breakfast, so that isn't as eloquent as it could be, but hopefully the point came across.

[camero]

49. they twist that too

The talents is a parable meaning it's not to be taken at face value. This is why he always said at the end of a parable "for those who have ears, let him hear", meaning those who understand what he's talking about.

The talents parable applies to how much one is willing to sacrifice for their faith and not riches.

The one who was punished was the one who was not willing to sacrifice. But was a "cafeteria Christian".

[Brian_Expat]

5. AMEN!

God cringes every time Bush cites Him as his moral compass.

[Texican]

6. Hate Filled

Living here in god's fundie world I grew up knowing what a bunch of self righteous, hate filled, lying, backstabbing, loonies they have always been. I can't see how the taliban could be worse.

[indigobusiness]

7. "They don't make Jews like Jesus anymore"

-Kinky Friedman

"In politics, what begins in fear usually ends in folly."
----Coleridge

"The most dangerous man, to any government, is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost invariably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane and intolerable, and so, if he is romantic, he tries to change it. And if he is not romantic personally, he is apt to spread discontent among those who are." - H.L. Mencken

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Hermann Goering.

[Texican]

10. Henry Lewis Mencken

was very popular until WWII. His style of telling the truth about government caused his ostracism after that. The red , white, and blue flag wavers did not want anyone thinking for themselves. He was sort of like the San Francisco art gallery owner who was attacked by a "real patriot" for her prison torture perspective. He should be required reading for anyone who thinks that they understand politics.

[indigobusiness]

12. I don't think I understand politics...

nor do I pretend to.

And who does the requiring?

[RandomKoolzip]

45. He's also something of a bigot as well.

Everything I've read by Mencken leaves me with the impression that he was the Sean Hannity of his day, with added intelligence.

[Blue Gardener]

8. Thank you for saying this

Very true. There was a caller on CSPAN this morning drooling over Bush because he quotes the bible, and we should just believe our government and do what they say because they are Republican. He is obviously very delusional. Now I get to spend the afternoon with my Bush loving, fundie relatives. Oh boy.

[mopaul]

11. I too have religiously insane family members

mother, brother, father, only my father would qualify as a real christian. the other two are gonesville, for over 35 years now.

only people who have fundies in their immediate family can truly understand what danger we are in as a nation from their influence.

i get sick of hearing myself complain all the time about it, but i think it's a huge, important issue right now.

[Blue Gardener]

19. They usually aren't too bad

Sometimes they try to push my buttons, but we usually try to keep politics out of the conversation. My nephew, who is 16, seemed incredulous when I told him I wasn't voting for Bush. When he asked why, I told him it was because I didn't want my nephew to be drafted. He was pretty quiet after that. His Dad and my sister just got a divorce because she decided she couldn't go to their Baptist church anymore, now she attends the Unity Center. He calls it a "cult". They just can't stand it when the little wifey doesn't fall in line.

[Wind Dancer]

9. That is what makes Bush so dangerous!

He uses manipulation and power in the name of God to kill, torture and steal. Jesus stood for the opposite of everything this criminal does and gives Christians a terrible name, as did the Crusaders.

[indigobusiness]

13. IIt is amazing that fundies can't recognize the Antichristianity

in their midst.

I suspect if Christ walked in on them they wouldn't give him a second glance... and turn back to beam at their Antichrist.

[Wind Dancer]

14. LOL!

I suspect you are right, sad to say.

[RC]

27. Yeah, they would notice.

They would notice that he had brown skin and pack him off to Gitmo.

[moof]

15. If only it were true.

Your point is understood but to say that something that does not exist is irrelevant due to it's misuse by bu*sh is not quite right.

It is one of long line of nonexistant issues that are used to keep large portions of the masses asleep.

All many people have to hear is that " name of conperson here " is a
" christian " and almost all critical thinking is suspended.

Personally it seems one of the cruelest ironys in America that no person can be elected without professing to believe in spooks when
such an admission should disqualify them from consideration.

[mopaul]

16. hee hee.......hoo hoo

i wish i'd said that. but it's true, no one can get elected without invoking the name of the lord god in some manner. even the minimal 'and may god bless america' at least.

[mia]

18. Jim Morin cartoon -

7/27/03 - The Miami Herald

[Brian_Expat]

20. Remember. . .

The Antichrist is said in the Bible to be an aw-shucks kind of guy who lots of people like and relate to, who will claim to act in the name of God and will have the backing of most of the religious establishment.

While doing so, he will mark all his citizens with the "mark of the beast" (bimetric ID cards, anyone?) and will wage war on the entire world in an effort to dominate it all.

After seeing Bush, you can almost imagine it's true. :scared:

[OKNancy]

21. Some people are obsessed with religion

It goes both ways....
capice?

[mopaul]

23. i sort of capice.....i'm obsessed with obsessive christians

like my mother and brother. they helped in large part to make me a cranky old atheist. thank god for them.

[OKNancy]

25. I'm a non-believer too

but to tell the truth, it is getting tiresome. I am of the live and let live school. Fundies piss me off, to be sure, but I just think there is too much hate.....from both sides. A meaningful discussion can't be had if it starts off with ridicule.

[Brian_Expat]

26. The fundies have reaped what they have sown

And as long as they insist that I shouldn't have equal rights under the law, I will accord them NO respect and will NEVER tolerate their airings of hatred in public forums. I will fight them at every opportunity.

For you, it might be unpleasant, but for me, it's thousands of GLBT kids who are murdered or commit suicide every year because of the rhetoric of those fundies who I am fighting for.

[playahata1]

28. Nancy, where is the "hate" coming from the liberal side?

If anything, any vitriol coming from the liberals with regards to fundamentalist Christianity is a reponse to the REAL hatred coming from the Holy Rollers and snake-handlers and End Timers.

It has gotten to the point, unfortunately, where we who believe in TRUE religious freedom -- and I do not mean the right to disrespect people who do not believe as you (not talking about YOU, Nancy) do -- have to fight these people using the only language they understand. We cannot afford to "play nice" anymore. You have to call a Nazi a Nazi, a bigot a bigot, and so on, and so on, and so on.... We have to fight fire with fire. Peace.

[OKNancy]

33. I probably should have taken this up

with MoPaul on a private message. I just feel that MoPaul is obsessed with bashing religion and it is tiresome. If you haven't seen the Christian bashing on DU ( not all started by MoPaul), then you have missed quite a few threads. MoPaul got banned once before for going over the line....I just think he needs to back off for a little bit.

I live in fundy hell. Home of Oral Roberts and many other nut groups. When I go to a public event, and there is prayer, I stand silently. No skin off my nose if they want to pray. I don't shout out or talk loud or otherwise disrupt.

I guess my point is " how many religion bashing threads are we going to have on DU?" Maybe there should be a separate forum for it.

[mopaul]

35. I was never banned, you made that up

and i'm certainly not the only christian basher here. i got so mad, i layed out for a while, that's all, never banned.

and i did back off a little. but the bornagains did not, they are taking us all to hell, so if i complain about them a little, excuse the hell out of me.

[OKNancy]

40. Sorry

I guess I was mistaken.
However, please remember Skinner's words:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=210331#210388

Have a nice day.

[Cleita]

51. Just to enlighten you a bit. I have been listening to quite a

bit of religious radio lately, in the spirit of "know thine enemy". I have noticed that none of the preachers can get get up there and thump their bibles without bringing "our President and the terrible burden he is bearing for us" into the sermon, or the martyrs who are putting their lives on the line bringing Christ to a bunch of people who don't want or care about having Christ brought to them.

My point is I am willing to live and let live as long as they keep their beliefs in the realm of the spiritual and bible knowledge etc., but when they start bringing politics into it, when they start telling their listeners that they must think a certain way about how the country is run and what to think of our President, they have crossed the line and are in violation of our Constitution.

I think we have every right to criticize who they are and what they stand for when that happens,and it happens every day. We know that all religions are money making businesses and this is the reason to keep a congregation of non-thinking sheep around so that questions aren't asked that they don't want to answer. When you walk away and let them do this, you are part of the problem and no solution.

I have nothing against what people want to believe and how they want to practice those beliefs.My gripe is with the institutions who enslave congregations of believers into a dogma that is not only destructive but intended to increase the power and riches of that institution.

[playahata1]

37. While not all Christians are Fundies,

it is the Fundies who are the loudest, most visible Christians -- and I am loath to even regard them as such -- and they should be called on their bullshit at every turn.

Until the TRUE CHRISTIANS -- calling all Catholics, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Disciples of Christ (the Christian Church), Baptists with sense, Jimmy Carter-like Evangelicals -- wake up and wise up and stand up and declare once and for all, in deed as well as in word, that what the Fundies are all about is not TRUE CHRISTIANITY, you are going to get Christian-bashing at DU and elsewhere. There are times when you have to destroy in order to build.

[quaker bill]

22. it goes like this

Accepting Christ and lord and savior is the only thing that matters. This is where, if you are going to get some fundie cred, the magical thinking comes in. It is not about doing what Christ advises, it is only the "re-birth" of professing faith that matters.

This is called "justification through faith" in theological circles. (Of course, "justification" is how you justify your entry into heaven) With fundies it is justification through faith alone, there is no quantity of human deeds (works) that could add to your account in god's eyes.

Christ's sermons are seen as utopian and better describing the "Kingdom of God" which only happens in the after-life. It cannot be achieved here. The Bible also says that there "will always be wars" and there will "always be poor" in this world. So, they conclude why fight it, just save souls.

To my mind it takes a rather contorted reading of the Bible to get here. But they have been doing it for well over 300 years. They are quite good at it now. Check out Calvin and the Puritans sometime for a bit of history.

[Merlin]

48. Excellent summary of what evangelical Christianity has become,

It's true the concepts have been around since St. Paul. But the dominant forms of Christianity have never before in American life been so sociopathic in their disregard for the things Jesus taught were important.

Thanks for a profound summing up.

[Jose Diablo]

50. Faith vs works

This is complex topic. It is true many Christians believe that faith alone determines salvation through the Christ. I tend to agree to a point.

Yet the "In-dwelling Spirit", the Pericles I believe it is called, is responsible for the works. If the faith is there then so is the Pericles and thus works are possible.

If the faith is not there then neither is the Pericles. Thus in James where he says faith without works is dead, is true.

But don't confuse the carriage and the horse, the carriage is the works and the horse is the faith.

Many "Christians" profess faith, but do not really have it. You can see this in the works they produce.

[doni_georgia]

24. Mopaul - you said it beautifully

I'm a Christian because I actually believe in the stuff Jesus talked about. I actually believe in following his example. I haven't been a Christian all my life - I came to it rather late (in my thirties), because I actually read the words of Jesus instead of watching his "followers." For years and years I wanted nothing to do with Christianity because of these hypocrites. I have studied many religions in my life and practiced a several. Let me tell you it's not easy identifying yourself as a Christian when you are so utterly disgusted with the vast majority of those who claim that title.

[indigobusiness]

29. You are refreshingly on target...

It is important to seperate the teachings from the Church and the dogma and the distortions of societies. The basic wisdom is what counts.

[JHBowden]

30. The teachings of Jesus are retarded anyway.

Helping people who wish to destroy you is downright stupid. Poverty, ignorance, and general meekness aren't my idea of human flourishing either.

[kimchi]

42. As a pagan, I take exception to your comment.

Jesus was taking up for those who get shit on the most; similar to what progressives do.

His message was tolerance and compassion; which is only "retarded" if you don't have a heart.

[JHBowden]

53. Jesus wasn't standing up for anyone.

The idea was that one's status in this world is of secondary importance, since there is an afterlife that rewards people for being weak in some way in this one. Suppose everyone acted like an ascetic. The world would quickly become a crappy place to live in.

I'd prefer we prosper in *this* world and stop venerating poverty, ignorance, etc. as if they were virtues. They're not.

[kimchi]

62. Do you really think we venerate poverty?,

The poor are treated as subhumans; and while poverty isn't something to aspire to; neither is it something of which to be ashamed. And ignorance is only a virtue to Republican fundamentalists.

Maybe status is important to you; but there are more important things in this world if you think about it. Gandhi got it right; and Jesus got some of it right too.

[JPJones]

44. Yes, cause eye for an eye has worked so well

in Iraq and Israel.

[JHBowden]

52. India was ruled by conquerors for centuries

because of a turn-the-other cheek ethic that promoted submissiveness.

I'm glad we didn't act that way in face of the Nazis.

[msmcghee]

31. Welcome the rupture. n/t

[Rabrrrrrr]

32. One must choose between the God of hate and the God of love

I choose the God of love.

The rightwing (as well as terrorists and, pretty much always, all fundamentlists) have chosen the God of hate, which is a god that simply is not found in the Bible. Though they think it is.

Thanks for your words! They have taken Christianity and instead of letting it guide their lives, they have usurped it to match their lives.

A brilliant theologian I respect said recently, "If you don't allow for the fact that other people are made in the image of God, then you
have made God into your image." Which, I would add, is blasphemous.

[Jose Diablo]

36. A tree is known by the fruit it produces.

Would a true christian produce so much hate?

[immoderate]

38. The problem for Christians...

...is that they want to use the term Christian to stand for the beliefs that all civilized people hold in common. Christians speak as though they are the only ones who know it's wrong to kill and steal and lie.

Christians gave us crusades, inquisitions and lynchings. So what's a real Christian? The only thing that Christians seem to hold in common is professing the divinity of Jesus Christ. After that I can see nothing that they hold in common.

I have to laugh every time I hear Jerry Falwell describe someone as a "good Christian." You know what he means.

I don't hold Christians responsible for the ways language is used, but it is ironic that many Christians would not qualify as "real Christians." So what are they?

--IMM

[playahata1]

39. Just call them "cafeteria Christians."

They take only what they want from the buffet and run with it.

[Jose Diablo]

41. "So what are they?"

2 Corinthians 11:14 NIV

"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

[immoderate]

46. And so...

While Satan (is he real?) is masquerading as this angel of light, he is being a good Christian? And when he reverts to his true Satanic nature (Wanna sell your soul, buddy?) he is just your everyday ordinary Christian?

As long as he recognizes the divinity of Christ, he is a Christian.

Let me digress to point out that so often in discussions it could be pointed out that arguments are mostly over what words mean. Having said that, I wanted to point out that non-Christians are disqualified, the way words are used, from being people of virtue.

--IMM

[Jose Diablo]

47. No

What is being pointed in the quote from 2co11 is they are not Christian, they are servants of the "one masquerading as an angel of light".

As for defining a Christian as "As long as he recognizes the divinity of Christ, he is a Christian", I don't know if thats true or not. After all, if accepting the existence of Satan, then I doubt Satan has any doubts whatsoever that Christ is divine, yet I would say that he is not a Christian.

Believing Christ is God is not the test of being Christian, rather it is following Christ in how we conduct our life determines if one is Christian.

[immoderate]

56. This good behavior...

...certainly preceded Christianity. And there are those who do not believe in any divinity as well as other divinities, who are surely as virtuous.

Which brings us back to my original point. There are those who use the term Christian to mean good person. And there are many good persons who are not Christians. Still the practice persists.

Christian, it would seem, describes behavior, and is not a religious belief? Do you see the problem? I refer to my previous statement that most arguments are over what words mean.

Oh yeah, remember, Jesus was not a Christian. That is not to say he wasn't a good person.

--IMM

[Malva Zebrina]

43. Jesus is as relevant as any other mythological religious figure

throughout the ages.

[Right Makes Might]

54. But the rest of the bible isn't

From Betty Bowers' site:

"For example, Nancy objected to the scene where Hannibal feeds a chunk of Gary Oldman's face to a dog. This scene was quite clearly in reverent homage to when our loving Lord had dogs devour sinners. (1 Kings 14:11; 1 Kings 16:4 -- and, in case the grisly point was not yet clear, 1 Kings 21:24) I found Nancy's objection nothing short of spitting in the face of our Lord. The very worst atrocities in Hannibal were rather tame compared to our Blessed and Merciful Lord commanding parents to eat their own children (Deuteronomy 28:53) or reminding us that "happy is he who smashes the heads of little children on rocks!" Psalms 137:9. (Parents should bear in mind the Lord's nuanced distinction: when killing children for sport, have them go to the rocks, but when stoning a child for disobedience, have the rocks go to them!)"

The bible's full of slavery, the oppression and ownership of women, brutal invasions, etc., etc., etc., that fit Bush and Co.'s modus operandi. And Jesus never advocated getting rid of any of the injustices of his own time.

Just "turn the other cheek" and "render under Caesar what is his", etc., etc., etc.

[Habibi]

55. Well, then, should he be rejected

or reclaimed?

[Cheswick2.0]

57. bush can't make Jesus irrelevant

silly idea

[RetroLounge]

58. Maybe Jesus can Make bush* irrelevant?

or just voters can...

RL

[Cheswick2.0]

60. we can

If we work hard enough. I don't really think Jesus goes around fixing elections.

[Right Makes Might]

59. Bush doesn't have to.

The bible, including Jesus' teachings taken overall, do a pretty good job of it all by themselves. However, this is coming from an atheist (as you might have noticed from my Darwin fish).

[immoderate]

61. Welcome to DU, Right!

:hi:

Not everyone here is godless, but I am. But there's all kinda good folk here.

--IMM

[datasuspect]

63. Santa Claus is now Irrelevant <eom>