Ted Rall: Gone off the Deep End

[JohnLocke]

:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

[wtmusic]

1. Yep, way off the deep end

I suppose you have a new take on what "supporting the troops" is supposed to mean? You send them brownies?

[monobrau]

2. He's really an ass

He lost me with the Pat Tillman thing.
I'm against the war, but I don't support Ted Rall and the troop bashers.

[DrBB]

3. Well, what do you know

Turns out I DO draw the line somewhere.

Stupidest cartoon Rall has done. Not helpful, and not sensible either. Most of the troops are honorable recruits trying to do good. If the political leadership uses them in perpetuation of a bad policy, the leadership bears the blame, not the troops. I think Rall has blown it--this will be used as evidence of what "the left" thinks. And it sure isn't what I think

[wtmusic]

5. Just how do you support the troops?

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. By bringing them home

They have no choice

By sending them what Hallburton is NOT providing, including food and basic toilletries

Or they will conclude they should hate us too

[wtmusic]

22. Actually, they do have a choice

Unknown (for a reason) numbers of troops are facing court-martial instead of fighting in this atrocity. Those are the ONLY troops I support.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. Just out of curiousity, how do you feel when one of our troops,...

...one that will not chose courts-martial for fear of what will happen to them in a military prison, is killed or maimed? I guess I'm trying to understand the depth of your apparent animosity toward our troops that are primarily made up of 18, 19, and 20 year old kids who are doing what they've been ordered to do.

IMHO, most of our troops have yet to learn that the reasons they were sent to Iraq have all turned out to be lies. Their access to REAL news stories is limited at best.

Personally, I hate the thought of the death of any human being in Iraq, but it's happening much faster in Iraq than it's being reported. I guess you could say that I support ALL of the troops and people of any nationality in terms of coming out of this travesty of justice alive.

[wtmusic]

47. No animosity

I'm just not going to say I support anyone (especially wearing the uniform of my country) going into another country illegally and killing people.

You're right that a lot of them are kids that have been sold a bill of goods. But come off it. You either have the choice to pull the trigger, or not. If they choose to pull it, then what about the Iraqi who shoots back (IMO with a great case of self-defense)? Are you telling me that he is wrong?

[Qanisqineq]

41. if these are the only troops you support

then I am confused by your avatar. Is it celebrating the deaths of troops that did not desert and chose instead to go to Iraq?

[skooooo]

4. Please explain.....!???

Are you watching something ? We can't read your mind. Why are you saying this?

[frank frankly]

6. rall has completely misrepresented me here.

sad.

[treepig]

7. yeah, how dare he raise objections

to patriot american bloodlust?

[JohnLocke]

37. Give me a fucking break.

You don't go attacking ordinary American troops, most of whom are decent people, are minorities, and come from low-income, low education families. I'm not going to sit here and say, "Go Ted! Way to attack our troops!" when our soldiers aren't at fault at all. The person really responsible is Bush and those who led the troops into this war. So take you self-serving, knee-jerk comments and leave, m'kay? :eyes:

[treepig]

49. there are basically two options

option #1:

the troops are monumentally naive to the point of stupidity to have volunteered to join the organization that perpetrated well known atrocities in the recent past (vietnam and gulf war I, to give two representative examples).



option #2:

the troops legitimately are comprised of individuals representative of the 42-49% of the population who are gung-ho for mr. bush's war-mongering. btw, such individuals are one of the reasons mr. bush is in power now, due to the "overseas military ballots" that came into play in the florida 2000 election fiasco.



i personally have nothing against the troops, but i'm not sure what's up with all the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth when they're attacked in an cartoon. what about all those good and decent mafia hit-men out there, just trying to make ends meet and put food on the table for their families - should they enjoy a similar sacred status in this country's highest object of worship - the military?

[JohnLocke]

51. You're comparing the MAFIA with the military?

:wtf:

[treepig]

55. sure, why not?

there's a lot similarities

they're both enforcers for a small elite group of persons

they both keep order/exact extortion by imposing themselves where they have no business being, either on a global or neighborhood scale as the case may be (on edit, here's a list of what your holy and noble military has been up to over the past century http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm - with several million innocent people killed in the process, but god forbid we utter a discouraging word wrt perpetrators of these crimes).



they both largely exist outside the bounds of civilized society and law enforcement, with the exception of the occasional over-hyped trial where mostly low level drones get dumped on

[John_Shadows_1]

65. Rall is completely correct...

... they signed up to kill, they were trained to kill, and now they're killing. There's no separating the troops from the war they're fighting, and that war is wrong.

[DBoon]

8. He doesn't understand...

The chef is directly responsible for the sushi.

The architect is responsible for designing the building.

The murderer is responsible for death.

In the military, it is the commander in chief that is reponsible for waging war.

His cartoon should have said:

"The sushi sucks, but I support the resturant parking attendant"

"The building is ugly, but I support the janitor"

etc..

The we can see how his point is nonsense.

What irks me about this is blaming the ordinary workers for the crimes of their CEO. Do you blame the secretaries at Enron for those scandals? Well, the troops are the "blue collar workforce" of the military.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

15. He does understand...

IF the soldiers refused to fight, then there would be no war...

[JohnLocke]

42. Yeah, it's all the soldier's fault.

Bush had nothing to do with it. :eyes:

[treepig]

58. it's called personal responsibility

mr. bush would be powerless without the millions who blindly support him and his militaristic endeavors - perhaps it's time for a redux of "Bush's Willing Executioners"

Daniel Goldhagen's controversial 1996 book "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust" pointed out an obvious truth: that the Nazis could never have triumphed, retained power or gotten anything done without the explicit complicity of the people they ruled. Therefore, Goldhagen argued--and thoughtful people agree--the failure of the German people to resist Hitler made them just as guilty as he was.

How will history judge us?


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3988.htm

the point being that individuals have very little control over what mr. bush does, but they do have control of what they do. if they choose to vote for him, and enlist in his army, they must bear some responsibility for their actions.

much to my shame, i also bear my share of responsibility as i continue to fund the military's efforts. really, the only american who can claim to have clean hands are the war tax resisters ( http://www.nwtrcc.org/ )

[Qanisqineq]

9. horrible, just horrible

[katusha]

10. if he had said "our president" instead of "our troops" EOM

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Agreed, he has gone off the deep end

Rall shuold realize the troops have NO DAMN FUCKING CHOICE BUT TO OBEY ORDERS, unless it is a clearly ilegal order. (Paging BGen Karpinsky)

[UTUSN]

12. Are You Saying RALL Has Gone Off the Deep End?

or those supporting Shrub despite the disasters he fostered?

Jon STEWERT made the same point as RALL in confronting Bill KRISTOL, saying, "So what you're saying is that this guy drove the country into a ditch but we have to pick him over anybody else to get us OUT of the ditch?"

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Steart

placed the blame where it should be the CiC, not the TROOPS

BIG DIFFERENCE HERE

[UTUSN]

28. The Troops Are Supporting the So-called "CiC"

They might have been one category in the cartoon. 'course they don't have a choice for the duration.

[bicentennial_baby]

14. Go Ted

It's days like this that I cherish freedom of speech.

[leftofthedial]

16. right on, Ted Rall

Rall rocks!

Get the troops home now, so they can quit being the tools of fascism.

[phoebe]

18. maybe the "troops" he's referring to are the troops who were

on camera in the prison abusing the prisoners??

[dpt223]

78. hopefully

nt

[Bombtrack]

19. Ted Rall has BEEN off the deep end since he was frigging ever known

He's not BEING a huge fucking asshole, he IS a huge fucking asshole.

He's a spoiled sheltered pussy Cambridge dweeb who was probably always surrounded by people who he'd never be as smart or talented as but thinks he is or should be. He has no concept or semblance of fair compassionate thought in regard to anything. His cartoons have never been funny to the vast majority of people no matter what politics a person has. And his columns, which by the way are distributed by a MOONIE newswire which has alot to gain from people who make the left look bad, are always, always, free of any original thought or cleverness.

He is to the left what Jerry Falwell is to the right, an embarassment and a creep

[bicentennial_baby]

21. Sheltered?

If by being sheltered you mean going into Afghanistan at the height of our bombing campaign against the wishes of his employers and without security, living amongst the real Afghan people, not camped out in a spiffy journo hotel, in order to get the truth out, then yes, Ted's very sheltered... :eyes:

[Bombtrack]

29. I'm talking about his upbringing. He's a frigging Ivy League dropout

And sorry if I'm being a frigging extrapeletor in connecting that to the freakishly statist way in which he looks down apon the kind people who where the uniform of the United States.

So fucking what if he went to Afganistan, nobody going anywhere gives them the right to routinely spout lies and propagandic slander

[wtmusic]

39. Yeah, it's just a big status thing

Everyone knows you have to grow up disadvantaged to be sincere :eyes:

[Bombtrack]

46. I never said you had to grow up disadvantaged to be anything

I'm trying to figure out just what could shape such a rarely barbarus dispicable warped view of the world to not feel enough shame to not put pen on paper and express these kind of whacked out views about things such as US military men and women he believes are uniformly stupid racists who deserve to die, 9-11 widows and victems families he believes are greedy, etc etc etc.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gregorian]

20. I know I'm going to get angry responses.

I've never understood the whole support our troops thing. Troops are for war. I don't like war. Therefore, I don't like troops. I guess I'm a pacifist, in almost all circumstances. Did we really have to kill millions of people to keep Hitler's people from killing? I mean, Hitler didn't do it all by himself.

I feel the same way about our troops as I feel about those exercising Hitler's demands. They were just following orders.

I think it boils down to a basic decision to trust. Trust that if I don't follow orders, and noone else follows orders, then the guy doing the ordering stands all alone. I'm talking about the aggressors.

I guess I'm one of those fools who thinks the world COULD work, if only...

[treepig]

23. but you don't understand

the troops are innocent naive economically-disadvantaged children who signed up under the benign clinton administration just so they could get a few $$'s for a college education.

apparently, despite hollywood's best efforts at glorifying war, they're now shocked, shocked i tell you, that they're actually expected to go kill and be killed.

[wtmusic]

24. No angry response here

It's got to start somewhere. Those guys are the ones with true courage.

[0007]

31. They are no more than paid assassins

..and assassins kill people....I don't support people who kill.

Bring the troops home so they won't kill anymore people.

[legin]

35. Not from me your not

Good post Gregorian and hi.

:hi:

[Qanisqineq]

36. troops are for war?

that's a pretty broad statement. How about "some" troops are for war? No one I know wants to be deployed, away from their family, risking their life for a war they don't believe in.

[JI7]

26. does Ted oppose international rules concerning pows ?

[DU Jimbo]

27. The Deep End?

Nothing wrong with the deep end.

Let the little kiddies stick to
the shallow end where it's safe.

I'll take the deep end anyday.

Ted Rall ROCKS!

[KittyWampus]

44. As A Longtime Lifeguard, I've Got Stories About The Assholes

who jump into the "deep end" trying to look macho and ended up by having a woman pull them out of the surf.

[DU Jimbo]

52. I wasn't referring to the surf.

Try not to take what I say too literal.

Some think that Ted Rall went 'too far.'

I'm just saying that going 'too far'
sometimes is a good thing.

Were not going to stop Bush's illegal war
by playing safe and trying not to offend.

[JHBowden]

30. Rall is an asshole; I have friends in the military.

I'm not going to hate them solely on the grounds of Bush's incompetence.

[Aidoneus]

32. Excellent cartoon

Thank you for drawing my attention to it.

Not quite the response you wanted?

[JohnLocke]

33. Not an excellent cartoon

A stupid cartoon, one poorly drawn and written, and that lashes out at the wrong people.

[QC]

50. In other words,

it's typical Rall. I never have understood what people see in his crude, clumsy "work."

[Toucano]

34. Bad analogies

The chef, the architect, and the murderer all have the power to make decisions. The troops do not. They're working class men and women who took a job to suplement their income. Their misuse is the fault of those who command them.

I actually expected the fourth panel to be "Iraq is a disaster, but I support the president." It would have made sense.

Blaming the troops is like blaming the fisherman for the poor sushi and blaming the bricklayer for the ugly building.

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[leftistagitator]

43. Wow, it's like every right wing stereotype of us come true

I can't believe I used to like this guy. I wonder if * is paying him for his diligent service in support of their cause. Well, unlike this blowhard I find nothing contradictory in opposing the jackass* in chief and supporting the men who are trying to serve our country.

[Qanisqineq]

45. just what I was thinking

bravo!

Edit: and it is also why I feel I must leave DU periodically to keep my sanity. I think this is one of those times, it makes me want to cry reading some of the comments. My husband didn't desert, went to Iraq, didn't fire his weapon once, didn't abuse or rape anyone but apparently he is a fucking pile of shit that deserves to die. He joined the military for two reasons: college money and to protect his country if it is directly attacked. It is not his fault if some fuck-up in the Oval Office wants to attack some other country.

[Bombtrack]

48. The MOONIE newswire UPI is paying him to put this screed out

And O'Reilly chose to put him on first on his show as well. Rall got to sell his stupid book, and O'Reilly got to advance the rights cause by letting Rall(who called him self "just a proud liberal democrat" on that interview) be the dispicable human being that he is as a representative of supposed liberal values.

[charlie]

59. Heh

UPI picked Ted up for syndication in 1996. Moon bought them in 2000. He was part of the stable, not recruited by the good Rev to be He Who Tars All Liberals With His Nasty Nasty Attitude. It's a bunch that includes the mighty Tom Toles and, brace yourself, Garfield.

[charlie]

53. Pfft

I reserve my outrage for the likes of Ailes, Murdoch, and GE, pampered "journalists" like Russert and Hume, all of whom are keenly aware of what Bushco is up to minute-by-minute, yet continue to shill for them. And I spare a bit for the "respectable" liberal publications that temper their oh-so genteel criticisms, so as not to appear immoderate or "too partisan."

Ted's just a misanthrope who uncorks some sour bile once in a while. Big whoop.

[immune2irony]

54. I used to support the troops until Abu Ghraib

Ted Rall is absolutely right on this one. One of the things that keep the sheeple in their stupor are these fundamental lies at the heart of America. The Vietnam War was only stopped when pressure was put upon all aspects of the war crimes being committed there in Americans' names by US soldiers. John Kerry was man enough to speak the truth in 1971, it's shameful he's backing away from his defining moment as a citizen just to pander to the millions who still buy the fantasy that individual soldiers are good worthy people, even as they carry out illegal wars, occupations, and atrocities. They're not soldiers. They're accomplices.

[tinanator]

56. I can post at DU but I cant read a CARTOON

How many idiots does it take to misinterpret an analogy?
Holy fucking shit. He is not attacking the troops here. I think most of you rattled cage types somewhat understand who he is attacking, but you cant take responsibility for your own complicity so you play stupid. Too stupid to read a cartoon.

[bicentennial_baby]

61. Thank you

Reading is fundamental, and comprehension is essential!

[JohnLocke]

63. Uh... he is attacking the troops.

Read it again.

[tinanator]

64. lol

just lol

[tinanator]

76. on second thought

I think these completely ill considered conclusions may be the expected result from DECADES of Democratic censorship of Bugs Bunny cartoon violence. There is simply no way for some people to do the math involved in a clever cartoon once they have become accustomed to information removal. I AM getting scared now.

[soundfury]

57. His point is/ We canÕt support the troops in this unnecessary war.

I was just following orders is not an excuse.

ThatÕs what the German soliders said, I was just following orders.

Ted RallÕs point could be that we canÕt have or cake and eat it too.

Think the Manson case, everyone is responsible.

Think bombing from 30,000 feet and killing innocent civilians, support the troops can you really?

[amazona]

60. i understand he's frustrated but...

...this is not the way to express it in my humble view. We have to have people who are willing to defend this country. Some things are worth fighting for and defending. If we don't support our troops by demanding decent working conditions, and this DOES include insisting that they are well trained, properly equipped, and deployed wisely, then we are throwing our future away.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

62. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Yes, a man representing all Democrats is telling the world that everyone against the war in fact DOESN'T support the troops.

Very fucking helpful.

Off the deep end, indeed.

[RedSock]

66. support the troops

um, if invading iraq was a war crime (and i believe it was), aren't they are all guilty of war crimes to a degree?

and how is torturing a prisoner to death in AG prison any different than dropping a 1000 pound bomb into a residential area? ... or shooting civilians in the street? ... it is the actual troops who are doing the killing -- and that killing is being done for no logical reason. we all know that.

the troops CAN say no -- there are troops who are refusing to return and refusing to fight right now -- we've read about them here. if more troops would say no, it would deal a huge blow to this "war"


*****
EDIT -- marianne and 9125 -- i like your comments. i have the same problems/issues.

[nolabels]

70. Art is often done so others can do introspection into their own motives

I think it was to the point but unless someone has figured out some way to get off the grid and stop paying taxes for anything, then they are part of it. We all could run out into the middle of the street and start yelling "stop it, stop it" but we would just look like some lunatics with the added bonus of not accomplishing much.

Rallies and protests can sometimes be seen a trait other animals do. Marking ones boundaries is an act born of common purpose. Describing the place where one would want other be cautious about is often misinterpreted when people dwell in a lizards point view. Rather than ranting against a messenger, describing what you think about it could also be enlightening.

What I see it the guy is calling flag waving, peace sign toting people confused or hypocrites. I say is he being a little superficial for a purpose. It is because he has to get the most response out of least and simplest words because of the need to reach the largest audience that has a lowest degree of SOPHISTICATION

Most of all I have never understood everything fully, but find it interesting to listen to people who think they might have gotten to that point. (Don't shoot the messenger, he is really only trying to do us a favor)

[Malva Zebrina]

67. My sentiments exactly

it is difficult to support the troops and at the same time not support , or be emphatically against the mission.

AT least for me, that has been the case.

It is not that I do not have insight and pity to the plight of some of the troops, it is just that I get tongue tied when having for some reason, to say "I support the troops" I can't say that comfortably. It is illogical and further, it says I have fallen victim to the word games/guilt laden phrases, Bush pulls.

[9215]

68. Nobody willing to do the work.

In this case the work to define what "support" means. From the intitial controversy over this I simply ask: What do you mean by support?
After all these years I never see anyone bear down on the question.

When a ship comes in with troops from Iraq I will not go down and cheer them, nor when they leave. Because, to me, that is supporting the war. Supporting the troops BS is all about dividing the anti-war movement.

When was the last time you heard our "liberal" Press demanding that the pro-war crowd support the anti-war protesters but not neccessarily what they are protesting? Why aren't the troop supporters supporting the war protesters who are merely doing their job as citizens of the US: that is exercising their right to dissent?

This support the troops bullshit is nothing more than the pro-war people demanding that those opposing the war shut up.

Ted Rall is right on.

[bicentennial_baby]

69. Merci

You said it much more eloquently than I could. :thumbsup:

[wtmusic]

74. Yep

Support the troops = support the war :thumbsup:

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

79. it means this...

a) I hope they don't get killed or wounded (or thats minimal)

b) they have sufficient munitions to defend themselves., and rations to eat.

Do I support what they are doing there and how they are going about doing it

NO !

[DrWeird]

71. I don't get what the problem is.

He's making a perfectly valid point.

What's the matter? Hit the nail a little to close to the head?

[mzmolly]

72. Too bad Rall is buying into the RNC version of "Supporting The Troops"

apparently he takes supporting the troops in the same vain as *they* do? He takes it to mean supporting the fargen war, which is the exact opposite of actually supporting the troops.

I take supporting the troops to mean:
Supporting their safety.
Supporting an end to the war.

In other words I support them in the way their families might, not in the way the Bushies do.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

73. Ted Rall is on the same page as I am....

Rall is nailing mindless sloganeering as way of empowring right wing imperialism.

Ted, you rock! Thanks.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

75. He's right on the money.

I support the troops that were left no other avenue and I ponder the troops that weren't.

[Rex]

77. Sometimes free speech sucks, but I support the right to have it.

nt

[Darranar]

80. Well, it's a question of what, exactly, he is referring to...

the idea of "supporting the troops" is like "supporting America" - a mindless propaganda tool for smearing those against colonial war.

If that's what he's trying to say, then more power to him.

But if he's equating those being forced to fight the war with those ordering the war, then he's wrong.