Are They Truly Insane?

[ursacorwin]

sorry if this isn't an obvious enough post, but after reading the thursday report about talks with the chinese about NK, acceptable losses, et al., i just have to ask: are they INSANE???

it's so hard for me to think rationally these days. i'm the first to admit it. as hard as i try not to fall for the rhetoric, propaganda, fearmongering, etc., it's pretty clear to me (a specialist in ancient iraq) that there's literally nothing they won't think about, and more importantly nothing they won't try if they can get away with it. so far, that's been about everything they've tried.

clearly, the media has a lot to do with the mess we're in now. without a complacent media, or rather, with a clinton-era media, we'd never have made it past enron, let alone been dragged into multiple wars and approaching economic disaster.

but the list is pretty shocking, when you think about it. just off the top of my head, the Cabal has brought us, in two+ short years:

torture chambers and no-trial death camps
big brother style "information awareness"
rigged elections
catastrophic global weather patterns
trillion dollar deficits
massive & growing unemployment
damaged relations with our closest allies
damaged relations with everyone else
increasing terrorism of all forms around the globe
exploding drug trade
end of participation in dozens of treaties relating to everything from the use of weapons to the preservation of the environment
a shredded constitution
polarization of the american population not seen since the Civil War (ok, perhaps that's overstating it, but it's how i feel)
etc.
smarter people than me can make this list longer, but the point is-

at least a dozen prominent people, and millions who don't get a public voice, have called this administration the "worst ever." period. comparisons to hilter, stalin, and other freedom-hating types are regular, and no longer the province of the tinfoil hat message boards. pick your favorite "worst evil" metaphor, and they have surpassed it. only the megadeaths are not yet on their list of accomplishments, but at a few hundred a day & climbing, it's clear they don't have a high regard for human life/rights. nuke-talk over NK demostrates megadeaths are on their minds.

so i ask you, all of you, what is the deal here? are they insane, utterly in the grasp of circle jerk group think, or following a plan? or has the world just become too big and complex for us to ever make sense of 000s of players with too many guns and not enough sense? or is this really the result of an ideology that has finally come to power? or something else?

there are times i believe any and all of those theories, but yet i feel there has to be a more logical answer. one that goes beyond the statement that powerful people will do anything. my question is, "why?" re: the last line in 'harlot's ghost,' for mailer readers.

suggestions?

[Andy_Stephenson]

1. They are looking to....

"cull the herd" so to speak...War is a great mechanism.

[ursacorwin]

2. so your answer would be

that this is a plan, a deliberate set of actions & policies directed at reducing the world's population in order to consolidate control over resources and geography? not that i have a problem with that, but i'm asking: you think they are that cold blooded?

part of why i ask is that in my writing, i'm looking to make a case about the correct way to understand these people, in a language that is both fair (correct) and documented (pointing to bits of speeches and documents which support an assumption). something to show those who still have issues with my LIHOP style thinking. i know i tend to foam at the mouth, and i'm trying to sound more "rational" instead.

but i'll take your vote for- not insane, just horrifically cold-blooded.

[Andy_Stephenson]

4. they are calculating.....cold blooded...

and will do whatever it takes to further their agenda. Thing is...they have allies on both sides of the isles, and it is not only the political figures you need to watch out for. The corporatists and "Good Old Boy" network IMHO are far far more dangerous. Their grip on power needs to be broken. I say start by revoking corporate personhood.

[DagmarK]

5. but.....Isn't 'horrifically cold-blooded' a symptom of insanity?

Sorry to make it an issue of semantics....but cold-blooded is pathological. I think it is. Lord, I hope it is. If it isn't, what *does* that say about mankind?

It's impossible to wrap one's mind around it. Maybe I will read Dante's Inferno again.......

[Mairead]

9. 'Cold blooded' doesn't quite cover it. Try 'psychopaths'.

To a psychopath, we're not quite real. We're a little out-of-phase with their reality. We're cardboard, and of no account. (One of the best and most accessable portraits of a psychopath is in Donald Westlake's Drowned Hopes ...and it's a superbly laugh-out-loud-funny read, too, if you're not yet a fan of John Dortmunder and his colleagues)

So yes, these guys have no slightest compunction about wrecking our lives or even killing us. Actually, they'd be happy to kill us all if it would put another dollar apiece in their pocket. Why not--wouldn't you do that to a cardboard cutout?

[ex_jew]

11. MMM... I love Dortmunder

Am off to look for Drowned Hopes now !

[bearfan454]

19. Yes they are that cold hearted

These crooks play for real.

[JitterbugPerfume]

3. I have never been

more afraid for the future in my life

[alaine]

6. for real "but Mom, they're only mini-nukes" (n/t)

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. here's a few links

to help confirm your worst fears. What is going down at Crawford, TX must be exposed and stopped now. Not next year or even next month, it will be to late by then.

They have no intention of going to Congress, the UN or to the American people for the next part of their master plan. I fear that in the next couple of months, America will wake up to reports that the US has launched a surprise, pre-emptive strike and that we are at war with NK.


http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030806.ukore0807/BNStory/International/?query=north+korea

N. Korea next to hear U.S. war drum


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=58499&mesg_id=58499

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=153366&mesg_id=153366

[ursacorwin]

8. thanks! i'm so happy to have attracted the 1000+ crowd

with this thread...

it seems most of you are gunning for the 'insane/utterly innured to factual info' explaination. this is good, in the sense that it tells me that use of the facts supports the most extreme language. they are fascists, theorcratic hypocritical fascists at that, and as the reactionaries they are, unsuitable for leadership of america.

next step- short version of why this is true, in plain language.

and slightly OT: does the chinese spy/FBI/GOP fundraising scandal take on more or less value as the NK situation gets bigger?

[sexybomber]

18. Why do lines from "1984" keep going through my head, slightly edited?

"The United States is at war with Afghanistan. The United States has always been at war with Afghanistan. Afghani terrorists caused 9/11."

"The United States is at war with Iraq. Iraqi terrorists caused 9/11."

"The United States is at war with North Korea. The United States has always been at war with North Korea. North Korean terrorists were behind 9/11."

And why does some small part of me think that people would actually believe everything I just said?

[bpilgrim]

10. it's really a story that is as old as time and is about power and conquest

are you up on PNAC?

they pretty much lay out their agenda there which is essentially about world dommination and to even hope to achieve that you need the 'life blood' of our modern civilization OIL.

it really is that simple, they see their job as to assure 'OUR' domminance in the world/market

http://news.GlobalFreePress.com has some good articles and a section on PNAC as well but there are many others too... just google PNAC

peace

[Karenina]

12. What Bpilgrim said!

Anyone who hasn't read the PNAC document needs to, VERY SLOWLY.
The plan is laid right out, SCHWARTZ AUF WEISS!!! Then I recommend Zbig's book for a chaser.

The *corp ,in their quest for control of the world's resources, WILL STOP AT NOTHING TO MAINTAIN POWER. The first thing anyone who wants to oppose them must accept is: the HORRIFIC deaths of BILLIONS would not cause them a nanosecond of remorse. KNOW YOUR ENEMY.

[tomp]

13. but that IS psychopathological

just because it is planned out in great detail doesn't mean it is sane.

for the record, my vote goes to insane. but then, i'm one of those people who thinks everyone is a little insane and some people are just over the top. bush, inc is over the top. one cannot tolerate the death of billions and be sane. on the other hand, whatever it is in the american psyche tht lets them get away with this insanity is also insanity. there is a certain level of codependence at work here.

in addition, the quest for power at the levels we see in the world today, is pathological as well. not that it's any different from any other time in history, but it's still insane. and that goes for both sides of the aisle and not just the u.s.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

17. the evil parents of PNAC...and much more scarier...Paul Weyrich founder

http://www.freecongress.org/

click around this site and get aquainted with the real enemy of america

snip

Washington is full of "think tanks," places that produce books and papers about particular policy questions. So what’s different about the Free Congress Research and Education Foundation?

Free Congress Foundation is politically conservative, but it is more than that: it is also culturally conservative. Most think tanks talk about tax rates or the environment or welfare policy and occasionally we do also. But our main focus is on the Culture War. Will America return to the culture that made it great, our traditional, Judeo-Christian, Western culture? Or will we continue the long slide into the cultural and moral decay of political correctness? If we do, America, once the greatest nation on earth, will become no less than a third world country

[Zech Marquis]

14. stop the insanity!

Now more than ever, I just see myself not even saying the words United States anymore. These neocons are sheer genocial maniacs :nuke: They WANT another LIHOP, as well as a "quick and easy" first strike on NK.

Well got news for them--NK is ready to fight, China will NOT stand still when it starts..and I hate saying that.But there aren't enough US troops there to even dream about owning NK, nuclear or otherwise.

I'm afraid the US wil never be the same again :(

[Jim March]

15. Let's take these items one at a time:

>> torture chambers and no-trial death camps <<

Overstated ("torture chambers"? Is there ANY evidence of that?) but granted, there's a lot of "terrorism age hysteria" and Ashcroft in particular ain't helping.

>> big brother style "information awareness" <<

Agreed, there's a lot to be worried about. The GOP hardly holds a monopoly here though, anybody remember Clinton's "Clipper Chip"?

>> rigged elections <<

Hmmmm. Well GEMS (the apparantly worst Diebold element) is four years old at least. Yes, there does appear to be some GOP connections but how extensive and how far back it goes is unknown.

>> catastrophic global weather patterns <<

The biggest cause of starvation is by far political misconduct...sometimes in the form of starvation used as a weapon (fairly common in Africa), sometimes due to simply psychotic leadership (North Korea anyone?).

>> trillion dollar deficits <<

As a percentage of GNP, we're not all THAT badly screwed yet. But granted, it's not good.

>> massive & growing unemployment <<

...which started with the dot-com crash late in Clinton's term. Look, the "boom" of the late '90's was fueled by rampant stupidity related to high-tech businesses. When Yahoo was worth more "on paper" than GM, somebody should have gotten a clue. A lot of us working in high-tech understood that it was gonna blow up eventually.

>> damaged relations with our closest allies <<

Sigh. Many of which (like France!) were just waiting to see us get taken down a notch or three.

Look, the moment Saddam got ahold of three nukes, we were going to have a problem. And sooner or later, he'd have gotten 'em. Why three? One to threaten with, one backup to that, one to give to Osama Yo Mama's boys so they can have some flea-bitten moron in a rowboat paddle the thing up the Hudson River and set it off right next to the statue of Liberty while yelling "Allah AkbaBOOOOOM!"

At that point, China would have openly cheered, Russia would have quietly cheered, France would have surrendered.

>> damaged relations with everyone else <<

You wanna get REALLY depressed? Run down the list of UN nations. Sort out how many of them have governments that are legitimately in power through democratic processes versus nations run by whichever band of thugs have the most guns.

That latter list is depressingly long. Start with China, the most populous nation on earth.

Are we popular with such assholes? No, we're not.

This is a BAD thing?

>> increasing terrorism of all forms around the globe <<

Yup. Clinton didn't take Osama Yo Mama seriously. Man, did we pay for that. Clinton basically let a bad wound get seriously infected. Bush came along and did drastic surgery.

Who's to blame?

>> exploding drug trade <<

See also the movie "Traffic" for all that needs saying. I'm for legalizing all but the very worst crap (PCP and such). But drug issues are NOTHING new, and certainly aren't anything Bush caused. Bush *perpetuates*, yes, but so did Clinton.

Sigh.

>> end of participation in dozens of treaties relating to everything from the use of weapons to the preservation of the environment <<

See also my comments on the UN.

>> a shredded constitution <<

No argument there. The over-reaction post-9/11 has been disheartening, to say the least.

>> polarization of the american population not seen since the Civil War (ok, perhaps that's overstating it, but it's how i feel) <<

Yes and no.

One way to view the Bush vs. Gore race in '02 is that the various pro-freedom, rural states finally banded together with no connection at all to whether or not they were North or South of the Mason-Dixon line.

In other words, once you exclude the racism and lingering distrust from the Civil War era, a state like Wisconsin has more in common with the interests of, say, Alabama than they do California. But the two major political parties have always exploited north/south tensions and racial politics. In '02, that all more or less stopped, at least at a statewide level.

So stripped of that, the urban/rural difference was just shocking and "new". But it's not really new, it's just "exposed" as other issues (esp. race) faded.

[yowzayowzayowza]

16. Mostly agree, but...

>>France would have surrendered.

Actually France has already fought a fairly successful war on terrorism with Algeria. We could learn a lot from their failed militaristic responses.

>>Clinton didn't take Osama Yo Mama seriously. Man, did we pay for that. Clinton basically let a bad wound get seriously infected. Bush came along and did drastic surgery.

Clinton had the OBL organization under constant surveillance. Had shrub not been selected, a plan was already in place to step up the attack on OBL. When Shrub got into office he dropped the surveillance and began denying FISA warrants.

[bearfan454]

20. I don't agree with a lot of your thoughts

You might not have liked Clinton, but at least people could get a job.

[JNelson6563]

22. let's look at this, shall we?

>> torture chambers and no-trial death camps <<

Overstated ("torture chambers"? Is there ANY evidence of that?) but granted, there's a lot of "terrorism age hysteria" and Ashcroft in particular ain't helping.

I am sure that those folks down in Gitmo are enjoying themselves. Being as they are enemy combatants and not POWs. I wonder why Team Bush would rather classify them that way...??? Geneva Convention come to mind?

>> big brother style "information awareness" <<

Agreed, there's a lot to be worried about. The GOP hardly holds a monopoly here though, anybody remember Clinton's "Clipper Chip"?

So you really feel that anything from the Clinton era is comparable to what Team Bush is doing? Let's talk about TIA, shall we? Don't forget the convicted felon who's running it! Of course Clinton couldn't compete in this area as he wasn't very tight with Iran-Contra felon-circle. That's a Bush specialty.

>> rigged elections <<

Hmmmm. Well GEMS (the apparantly worst Diebold element) is four years old at least. Yes, there does appear to be some GOP connections but how extensive and how far back it goes is unknown.

Well, obviously in 2000 the R's weren't real sure about dependability in election rigging or we wouldn't have had the voter-roll purge in FLA would we? Also, since things seem to be getting rather fine tuned in this regard, seems to me it's the Rs who are winning somewhat questionable elections so you tell us who might be the beneficiary in all this......

>> trillion dollar deficits <<

As a percentage of GNP, we're not all THAT badly screwed yet. But granted, it's not good.

Did it hurt to give that much? Here's the deal friend, we are screwed. Deficits as far as the eye can see, and aside from all our other unfunded expenses we're dropping a billion a week to take over Iraq and its resources. Soon interest on the deficit will be taking larger and larger portions of Gov revenue. Great way to starve the Gov and end all programs but military spending and any others that Bush pals profit from.

>> massive & growing unemployment <<

...which started with the dot-com crash late in Clinton's term. Look, the "boom" of the late '90's was fueled by rampant stupidity related to high-tech businesses. When Yahoo was worth more "on paper" than GM, somebody should have gotten a clue. A lot of us working in high-tech understood that it was gonna blow up eventually.

There has been no market manipulations and we all suffer. Evn the very wealthy. Of course this is all Clinton's fault. BTW, have you had an opportunity to read this yet?

http://www.yuricareport.com/PoliticalAnalysis/FraudinWhiteHouse.htm

>> damaged relations with our closest allies <<

Sigh. Many of which (like France!) were just waiting to see us get taken down a notch or three.

Can you imagine??? Our admin goes around and swaggers and tells other governments how they should spend their $$$, who we're going to invade and yes, we are going to take over Iraqi oil and by god you better be on board.....well, imagine a country being subjected to such behavior. Also, remember, after 9/11 everyone (almost all countries and many Dems) were pretty supportive of Team Bush. How did that all change??

Look, the moment Saddam got ahold of three nukes, we were going to have a problem. And sooner or later, he'd have gotten 'em. Why three? One to threaten with, one backup to that, one to give to Osama Yo Mama's boys so they can have some flea-bitten moron in a rowboat paddle the thing up the Hudson River and set it off right next to the statue of Liberty while yelling "Allah AkbaBOOOOOM!"

At that point, China would have openly cheered, Russia would have quietly cheered, France would have surrendered.

Oh, is this the scenario Faux News was kicking around? Well there has been no evidence that Saddam was anywhere near producing nukes so, in spite of your parroting RW talking points, we look like land-grabbing greedy assholes to the world. Oh, and I am sure Osama is very thankful for the great recruiting foundation we've given him. You do remember him dontcha?

>> damaged relations with everyone else <<

You wanna get REALLY depressed? Run down the list of UN nations. Sort out how many of them have governments that are legitimately in power through democratic processes versus nations run by whichever band of thugs have the most guns.

That latter list is depressingly long. Start with China, the most populous nation on earth.

Oh, you mean like our democratically elected President? Like the band of thugs we have running this country?

Are we popular with such assholes? No, we're not.

This is a BAD thing?

No it's great!! Bring 'em on!!! We don't need trade or help in the war on terror! Nope!!! Fuck 'em!! Kick their ass and steal their gas!!!

>> increasing terrorism of all forms around the globe <<

Yup. Clinton didn't take Osama Yo Mama seriously. Man, did we pay for that. Clinton basically let a bad wound get seriously infected. Bush came along and did drastic surgery.

Who's to blame?

Wow, you really don't know shit do you?? Amazing. I'd heard such creatures exist but haven't seen 'em so up close before! Remarkable!!

>> end of participation in dozens of treaties relating to everything from the use of weapons to the preservation of the environment <<

See also my comments on the UN.

Oh, I see. We disapprove of some countries so previous aggreements are null and void. How honorable. You poor clueless soul.

>> a shredded constitution <<

No argument there. The over-reaction post-9/11 has been disheartening, to say the least.

Oopsie!! Careful!! You're straying from the mantras, friend.

>> polarization of the american population not seen since the Civil War (ok, perhaps that's overstating it, but it's how i feel) <<

Yes and no.

One way to view the Bush vs. Gore race in '02 is that the various pro-freedom, rural states finally banded together with no connection at all to whether or not they were North or South of the Mason-Dixon line.

This goes way beyond Selection 2000. Get a clue.

Julie

[BeFree]

24. Thanks, Julie

Very good counter reply to this in lock-step, march fellow. You set him in his place, and nailed him good.

[BeFree]

21. I see it as the Last pie

Imagine the world's Last Pie on a table.

Seated around the table are four people.

Two of the people have guns.

Soon enough there are only two people at the table. The pie will last twice as long now.

[rucky]

23. Carl Jung made an educated guess....

...that for every person that's labeled "insane" there are about 10 functioning sociopaths walking around unchecked.