Ted Rall: Cartoon about American idiot, Pat Tillman

[corporatewhore]

flame away!!

[mopaul]

1. woah!

rugged

[Political_Junkie]

3. Oh, mopaul!

Love the new pic, says so much!

[berry]

6. it IS hard to respond to this Rall 'toon...

Anyway, I'm just posting to to tell you (mopaul) that I think your "Mission Demolished" graphic is BRILLIANT!!

oops, spelling error

[roguevalley]

93. if he had been just another kid, then his death would have been as

ignored as the rest. I am sure he wouldn't have wanted the publicity about this. It's too bad that this was made. It might be somes opinion but not mine. I have a hard time denigrating the dead or feeling 'good' about someone 'getting theirs' this way. Its all too terrible in all directions, as I stand here and look around. Being amused or pleased or whatever over a man's death is nothing to crow about no matter how you slice it.

[Jacobin]

2. <covering head and running for cover>

[luzdeluna]

5. Sad but.....

....seems about right to me.


Clair

[bigwillq]

11. What's up, Welcome to DU!!

[Another Bill C.]

4. That's rotten beyond comment.

n/t

[wryter2000]

7. I don't think much of it, either.

Rall kind of forgot that Tillman signed up so that he could be with his brother in Afghanistan. Also, that OSL was based in Afghanistan on 9/11.

I'm not for making the guy into a demi-god, but he sure deserves better than that.

[pretzel4gore]

42. what about america?

tillman bravely went to afghanistan to kill peasants while the USA is being taken over by a proven criminal organization, the rightwing republicans/BFEE.....wtf? What fight was more important; to install malleable warlords in afghanistan, or free USA from corrupt, vicious, possibly murdering regime?
And ignorance is no fucking excuse when the very country is being destroyed...

[leesa]

104. We don't know if OBL had anything to do with 9-11.

Bush's cabal told you that, there has been no investigation. Afghanistan was pre-planned in July of 2001 to start in October before the snow fell. We threatened the Taliban in July of 2001 to bomb them if they did not accept our pipeline deal. They refused, we bombed them for 10 months.


It had nothing to do with 9-11. Look in the WH for your 9-11 fiends.

[rucky]

8. We gain NOTHING by attacking Pat Tillman

think what you like, but calling a dead guy an idiot is pointless. And for the "just being honest" crowd: it is most definately NOT what naturally came to my mind.

[KansDem]

114. I agree...keep calling the "live" guy an idiot...

George W Bush

Attack his character and let him defend himself (behind closed doors, of course, without taking an oath and with no official transcript of what he says and with Cheney there to hold his hand).

[RapidCreek]

9. I don't think this is fair...

...while I wouldn't call this guy a hero...neither would I call him an idiot. He did what he did....and why he did it only he knows/knew.

This fellow is/was one of the only wealthy people I know of who has demonstrated a true commitment in what he claims to believe. So much so that he was willing to put his own life on the line.... While I may not or may not agree with this mans motives, I respect his very genuine conviction. He did what he did...not for money...not because he had to...but because he chose too.

RC

[donhakman]

12. I have to defend the cartoon

since it is true that the editor at the end is the villian and not Tillman.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

163. True. It's those who distort.....I mean..."report" the "news" are the...

ones who are the true Villians.

[Chuletas]

15. Pat Tillman is a hero

As are thousands of other GI's. Afghanistan is as righteous an effort as any war can be. War is awful, it kills the innocent but these are the bases where al-Qaeda operated from.

I oppose the war in Iraq but it doesn't make me have any less respect for our men and women as being far braver and making more sacrifice than anyone else in this country.

It's this bs that makes people not vote for our party. This ivory tower liberal crap is as bad as the warmongering chicken hawk crap.

My buddy is off to Iraq tomorrow, I'll give him your regards.

[Pastiche423]

24. Why is the Afghanistan War righteous?

There has been absolutely NO EVIDENCE given to the citizens of the United States of America as to who attacked our soil on September 11, 2001.

NONE!

So, you believe what whistle ass et al said happened, eh?

Sounds pretty ignorant, IMHO. Just like Tillman was. He, in his ignorance, bought the bushit story and it cost him his life.

[Chuletas]

31. not really

Osama BL is linked pretty tightly with the attacks of 9/11 except in a dream world where the US is always the evil one. The point I'm trying to make is that the liberal fantasy world where no military action is needed is almost as absurd as the militaristic neo-con fantasy world.

There will always be a need for soldiers and the dirty work that they do. There will always be good US soldiers, whose maturity and bravery pales their age (the vast majority) and those who are not (such as seen in the recent Iraqi prison expose). I have a great respect for them. I feel that the Afghan War is a war to root out Taliban/al-Qaeda and the fact is eventually the Afghani people will be a lot better off than they were under the Taliban. All war is horrible, I wish it didn't have to happen but if you could have seen another possible reaction to 9/11 I'd like to know what it is. Hindsight of course is 20/20 and perhaps we should not have supported the mujaheddein against the Soviets.

But then again I must be ignorant.

[bigbillhaywood]

39. For A Red Army victory in Afghanistan! Oops, too late. nt

[Pastiche423]

57. Would you kindly

present the proof, that "Osama BL is linked pretty tightly with the attacks of 9/11"?

Powell did say shortly after 9/11, that he would provide a "white paper" showing such evidence.

As of May 3, 2004, he has not. Maybe he forgot?

Btw, in case you haven't heard, the Taliban are back in power in Afghanistan.

[davekriss]

72. I've been waiting for that "white paper" too

I've never forgotten the promise unfulfilled.

And before anyone trots out the videotape, the one with the fat, short-nosed "Osama", spare me...

[aquart]

91. Which pisses me off.

I want them dead in awful ways. I'm the vengeful sort and they are evil to women.

Which is why I overlooked the peculiar and basically unrealistic invasion of Afghanistan. I wanted dead Taliban and we weren't going to invade to save women.

But it hasn't done any good and I feel rooked.

[RapidCreek]

70. Well there I would disagree

If you have a dandelion in your yard that you want to kill...chaising dandy poofs around or cutting off the pretty yellow flower ain't gonna do the job. Nope...you gotta dig is out by it's roots.

The roots of Al Qaida are not in Afghaniztan...and they ain't in Pakistan either....They are in Saudi Arabia. You want to get rid of Al Qaida, you hang half the Saudi Royal Family up by their balls...and tell the other half the next Al Qaida attack will earn them the fucking same. What you DON'T do is fly the fuckers out of the goddam country. You follow the money baby...cause that's what makes it all happen. You want to get rid of terrorism you go to it's source, you don't dink around chasing functionaries through a backward country blowing the shit out of the innocent inhabitants.

And yea...recruiting, training and arming terrorists is ignorant. It's sort of like giving a fire bug a can of gas and some matches and sending him across the street to burn your hated neighbors house down. There ain't a whole lot keeping him from burning yours down as well now is there?

All war is horrible? How's any war been horrible for you? Your wife kid, husband, mother, father, house or business get blown up in any war? How about anyone you know? Do you have allot of friends and relatives who are "collateral damage"? Here's an idea....if you think war is such a necessity. Let's have a national lottery...every man woman and child in the country shall participate. For every innocent Iraqi or Afghan we kill...we draw a name and kill an innocent American. You up for that kind of horrible? I'm guessing you aren't. So you sit in the safety of your armchair and pontificate on the horrors of war...horrors that you and your relatives will NEVER have to live through ...and consider why it is that people across the globe hate Americans. Talk about living in a fucking dream world.


RC

[Chuletas]

79. What do you know about me? most of my family

has been army. As I said my homeboy's going off to Iraq tomorrow. My brother in law just got back from Afghanistan. I was hardly pontificating. And I don't support the Bush administration's actions in the middle east.

I say war is horrible and you say I'm in a dream world? What kind of logic is that? Do I want Afghani's and Iraqi's to die, hell no!

I don't need a lecture on Islamic politics, I have a basic understanding of the roots of Wahabbism and Shia fundamentalism. And of American economic and cultural hegemony being a threat. It isn't just all about the money either. The Taliban terrorized their own country on the cheap, some AK's, T-54 tanks, pathfinders and religious police.

What is the solution? instead of throwing spitballs in the classic internet fashion.

[RapidCreek]

101. Your brother in law

chose to go to Afchanistan...and your homeboy chose to go to Iraq. The people in the countries they are going to to shoot weapons in, plant mines in and drop bombs on did NOT ASK THEM TO COME. Those people who DID NOT ASK THEM TO COME ARE going to die...you aren't, your friends aren't and your family isn't. Like I said before...you and the rest of America who sit in front of your television sets wringing your hands about the horror of war...while simultaneiously extolling the virtues of the soldiers who propogate that horror..suffer NOT AT ALL. If the HORROR you claim to feel so deeply aversed to was visited upon you and yours personally, you would not sit about wringing your hands pontificating, would you? You'd grab a gun and do everything you could to kill the mother fuckers bringing that horror down on you. You'd seek to kill the mother fuckers riding around in armed convoyes doing business on your country, mother fuckers who think it is their right to tell you how you will utilize your natural resources and who you will sell them to. Mother fuckers who are pirating your national treasures. Yep, you'd be an 'insurgent' a 'terist' an 'evil doer'.

You don't need a lecture on Islamic politics? Maybe not....what you need a lecture on is human nature and human pride. Muslim countries sit on top of the life blood of the world. That is a fact. Muslim countries have been historically dicked with by the British, French and US for the past 125 years....because of this simple fact. And islamic countries have quite naturally come to hate those who seek to steal from them....as anyone would. Do you honestly think a bunch of guys riding around on camels in the desert would give a rats ass about the rest of the world if the rest of the world hadn't started fucking with them and the way they chose to live and govern themselves? You figure they'd be out there in their tents plotting and scheming on ways to murder Americans?

It is all about the money...FOR CHRISTS SAKE! The Chinese have been doing nothing more evil than the Taliban for 50 goddam years as have the Burmese and a host of others. Are we attacking themn? Are we saving all the poor people the hierarchy in those countries are subjugating? Hell no we're not. Nope, we do things like give them most favored nation status. Why? Because WE don't REALLY give a shit about that mistreatment unless it can be used as an excuse to steal a countries natural resources.....we don't give a shit about that mistreatment if that country supplies US industry with wage slaves. We don't give a shit about that mistreatment if that country can kick the living shit out of us and quite possibly attack us on our own shores. Keep your sanctimounious crap about saving poor innocents from the evil of the Taliban for someone dumb enough to swallow it....like the poor niave sons of bitches dressed in cammy getting their asses blown off because they buy into the same bullshit you do. You can engage each other in a rationalization circle jerk.

RC

[leesa]

105. He's not been linked at all. There has been NO investigation.

The appropriate reaction to 9-11 would have been an international investigation and then apprehension of the criminals involved. That is the ONLY rational approach. Instead the ones folks like yourself chose was to carpet bomb a couintry for ten months, kill tens of thousands of innocent people without apprehending someone even remotely involved with 9-11. Brilliant!

It was a CRIME, not an act of war.

The likely reason it was not investigated was because our government, who told you Muslims did it without any proof offered, were probably assisting the criminals.

[wryter2000]

29. Welcome, Chuletas

Check out the rest of DU. You'll see plenty of support for our troops.

:hi:

[progressivebydesign]

80. The idiot thing in the comic was over the top.. HOWEVER...

that Tillman was duped. He was rah-rahed into killing people in a country that had very little to do with 9/11. We had planned to attack the Taliban earlier in 2001. I'm not sure why people don't seem to get the fact that Bush duped us into attacking Afghanistan, and seeing our troops killed there for oil.

Rall's comic was harsh.. I could have done without the idiot part.. but his point is valid. People were duped into thinking they were avenging 9/11 over in Afghanistan. They weren't There was no proof OBL was even there.. if Bush and his pals can manipulate, lie, cheat, and steal to get a war against Iraq, why is it so far-fetched to believe the he did the same for Afghanistan? Tillman was misguided... as were many who joined up to kick ass in revenge for 9/11.

I think the saddest, or most telling thing about the near cannonization of Tillman, is that he is made to be so much more special than any other soldier.. just because he gave up MONEY to go there. As if those that lost their lives before him gave up something less precious... like their family and their own lives. I'm sorry any of our troops have to die for either of these false wars.. I"m more sorry for the unknown, unheralded soldiers that died with NO fanfare, just because they didn't play football. Tillman should not be scorned, but he should not be made to be a saint because he gave up lots of MONEY to go there. Doesn't that make us seem truly capitalistic and sick.. to make his life more important than anyone else who died?

[Delano]

10. Usually like Rall, but this sucks.

Ripping on a dead man who as far as we know went with the best of intentions is disgusting.

I might venture to say that he was a bit ignorant, but the fact that he gave up so much leaves little doubt about his sincerity.

There are scores of villains associated with this war to excoriate. Pat Tillman is not one of them.

Yuck.

[progressivebydesign]

81. Money...

The fact that Tillman gave up millions.. that's what makes him a hero in America... not any of the troops or civilians that have died since Bush took office in wars he started.. even though some of them would have gone on to do important work in the world. Why are we so damned obsessed with money and fame? Is Tillman's life more important because he gave up fame and fortune? God.. we sound like republicans.

[Delano]

83. His life is no more important than anybody else's

and he doesn't deserve all the media praise any more than any of the other 750 dead.

I'm just saying that Rall is an a-hole for attacking this dead man who can't defend himself. The fact thhat he gave up millions doesn't make him any more heroic than anyone else, but it does suggest pretty strongly that his motive for going was sincere. Of course, his sincere belief (in all the propaganda) is the very thing that Rall is calling him an idiot for.

Millions of people are caught in the matrix, and I'm not going to start calling them "idiots just because they've been fooled and haven't done the homework most of us have. Also, calling people who are otherwise good folks, but don't "get it" is not going to win us ANY converts, so what does it achieve?

Apparently, it gives Rall some sense of superiority that he was better informed about the reality of the war than a millionaire football player. Since when do we expect football players to be Chomsky-reading intellectuals? Blame the corporate-media complex that disinforms people, not the disinformed.

[FlemingsGhost]

13. *snicker* ...

The DU indignation will be more comical than Rall's cartoon.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. Seeing how it's not funny that will be easy enough

I agree with Rucky in #8. This is stupid.

[Emboldened Chimp]

16. Rall looks like a fool on this one

Usually he's right on, but attacking Tillman, as stated by a poster above, accomplishes nothing. And in his third pane, the looting of museums happened in Iraq, not Afghanistan where Tillman was killed. So not only is Rall making a mountain out of a molehill, he doesn't even have his facts straight.

[wicket]

17. Sickening.

[corporatewhore]

18. the thought of people being killed for US imperialism or a cartoon?

[wicket]

45. Give me a break.

:eyes:

[w4rma]

19. His opinion. I *strongly* disagree with him on this one. (nt)

[scrotim]

20. Rall often says the "unsayable"

which is why, whether I agree with him or not on any given issue, I'm glad he's around to trigger discussion.

[laura888]

60. thank you - you've said it better than anyone else here...

yeah, this cartoon is a bit harsh. But there's truth in it, too.

[patrice]

21. This is cruel and stupid. Evidence of low class. - eom

[Westegg]

22. I find Rall to be a 2nd-rate mind and 3rd-rate illustrator...

...or vice-versa. Honestly, 90% of what I read on DU is smarter and funnier than Rall (his IS a "comic strip," after all). There's never a punch-line. There's no subtlety. It smacks of arrogance, frankly. It's like Ted thinks I need him to tell me what's going on. I don't. I KNOW what's going on, Ted. I want some fucking commentary! And isn't the same true for most of his audience? If I'm wrong, please correct me.

OK. Upon further reflection, he's not a 3rd-rate illustrator. His images are fine. Wish he'd do more within the ballons, however.

[ArkDem]

23. Rall once again displays his superior intellect.

He is maybe the best artist I've ever seen!

[Poor Richard]

28. Rall is over the line

never ever disparage the people who give their life for our country. I for one do not disagree with the Afghanistan war, neither does Howard Dean.

Tillman did what he thought was right. He paid the ultimate price for it. He deserves our respect and gratitude.

[stopthegop]

25. a despicable cartoon...

a case of the right to free speech being abused..but, that's what it's there for...

[wicket]

47. He has a right to free speech

But we also have the right to say he stepped over the line. And he definitely has stepped over the line.

[stopthegop]

51. that's pretty much what I meant..

the 1st is there for just such speech..people don't have a right to not be offended...

[wicket]

52. yeah- I was just agreeing with you

:)

[Skittles]

113. except for the IDIOT part

it is dead on. I would think MISGUIDED would better describe Mr. Tillman.

[Guaranteed]

26. Well, I have to admit I like his writings a lot better.

This is certainly one of the lower-tiered accomplishments of his career, right here.

[bigbillhaywood]

38. Yeah. He's better suited to columnist/critic than cartoonist.

I don't find his not-too-subtle political cartoons funny at all. It's like reading Soviet propaganda cartoons. His messages are sometimes good, like Tom Tommorrow, but in the wit department they're both about as funny as the guy who does Family Circus.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tom_paine]

30. Pat Tillman was not an idiot for doing what he did

He was misled.

He went off to fight for a lie. He died for a lie.

His reasons, as well as the millions of dollars he sacrificed to do what he did, is admirable, even if it was in the service of Tyranny.

We can argue on how far the "They didn't know" argument can go, but I have no problem with Tillman's motivation nor his sacrifice.

It's just a shame he died for a lie told by Murdering Tyrants and haters of America.

[KamaAina]

32. So, is Rall gonna get death threats now?

Like Rene Gonzalez at the Daily Collegian in Amherst?

Or (most likely) do freepers only have enough courage to make death threats against unknown columnists at college papers?

But really, Ted, shouldn't "idiot" be reserved for the likes of Bush*, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz et al., for getting us into this mess in the first place? For Tillman I'd say "tragic", "pathetic", "wasteful" -- but not "idiot".

[Old and In the Way]

33. Thanks for posting this Corporatewhore.

I'm sure this will again be used as a "showcase" thread to discredit this site by Rush, et al.

Mission accomplished.

BTW, pretty cheap shot at a person who made the ultimate sacrifice for something he believed in. I may not agree with his worldview or the motivations that made him decide to enlist, but I respect the guy for putting his life on the line for what he believed in.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

65. What about the US murdered Afghans and Iraqis? Hero talk kills even more.

(On edit: Sorry, Old and in the Way, this isn't a personal rant at you. I get really heated over deceiving ignorant young fodder with hero talk and creating more fodder. I'm frikkin' throwing things here at home. My college teacher mother is losing students in this war and it is breaking her heart. She took me on anti-Vietnam marches when I was 7 years old. Old nightmares are back with a vengeance.)

This is the thing about focusing exclusively on how the US troops have been duped for the millionth fucking time to be a corporate mercenary hit-squad! Fuck the tendency to say 'shh-some one will beat you with a flag.' The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq are the same fucking oil war. Period.

What about the thousands of dead Afghans and Iraqis? Lots of dead children and orphans for the next round. And our troops helped! Where do they begin to take responsibility for finding out what the fuck is going on before they say to this sick fucking cabal called the US gov't "I need college money or something to spend at the mall so you just tell me who to shoot." Yes, some join out of self-sacrificing altruism and not for income. That's really sad. Their not knowing the score destroys other nations. That's the responsibility that comes with being born a citizen of the largest arsenal ever created on the planet-our choices affect whether many other people live or die or starve like dogs in corporate-sanctioned poverty.

Yes this is harsh but, goddammit, our troops are being maimed, killed, and killing huge numbers of civilians because they trusted the fucking Army??! What does it fucking take for the American public to remember the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, the Pentagon Papers, IranContra.

That's where the harsh snap-out-of-your-cliche tone of this cartoon serves a purpose. Rip the red white and blue bunting off your eyes and face the sickening truth that all those 'heros' are being used as murderers. It's horrible but it is still the truth. Face it. Denial kills.

Kick start your brain and sense of morality, fer chrissake.
I sympathize with our troops who are also victims but the rest of the world is a much bigger victim of our troops' less than zero complicity with the US death machine. Shit.

[RapidCreek]

73. I couldn't have said it any better

Beautiful

RC
USN VET

[Old and In the Way]

74. You must have missed this part of my post.....

" I may not agree with his worldview or the motivations that made him decide to enlist".

And, I do respect the sacrifice this guy made. Even while I hate the quagmire that this administration has gotten this country into.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

78. Ok, my point is that there is much more than his own life, victims too.

"I may not agree with his worldview or the motivations that made him decide to enlist, but I respect the guy for putting his life on the line for what he believed in."

OK, duly noted. My point in a less raving mode is simply:

Imagine that someone who hears voices in their head telling them that there are dangerous people at the bus stop who want to end the world. So he charges and guns them down to save the world. Erroneously.

Does motivation create a hero despite the horrific slaughter?
This is the ethical question to consider when deciding 'hero' status.

Tillman didn't just put his life on the line. He put many other people's lives on the line and probably ended some, too, for what he erroneously 'believed in.'

And that negates the 'heroic' status to me. It is high tragedy. And I think that is the incredibly complex ethical dilemma that Rall is harshly pointing at in a few tiny cartoon frames. And that doesn't eliminate my sympathy for Tillman or the bereaved family and friends he leaves behind. I don't mean that he is a villain OR hero.

I'm reminded of the saying 'Make someone think that they are thinking and they will love you. Actually make them think and they will hate you.'

There is a very human place we all live in between 'hero' and 'villain' despite the propaganda thrown at us to the contrary.

[Delano]

84. I don't think so.

Rush can cherry-pick his snippets to make it seem like DUers hate Tillman, but anyone who reads could see that most of us only have the deepest of respect for the man, and just wish he had known better.

[corporatewhore]

89. who gives a fuck what rush thinks and what about nazi soliders

who fought what they believed in (although you disagree) and died are they heroes as well

[treepig]

109. mr. tillman hero status is probably enhanced in mr. limbaugh's eyes

by his criminal background (the birds of a feather syndrome). further, just like rush he got off with not paying his debt to society (i.e., serving hard time) like a regular person would - in both cases it pays off big time being a privileged white guy.

we all know about mr. limbaugh's drug abuse - it's not clear why mr. tillman's crimes have been covered up - after all, wouldn't most 17-year old's been tried as adults and put away for a long time (heck, we've had 16-year olds on death row in this country) if they beat the shit out of someone outside a pizza joint and were convicted of felony assault - pray tell why mr. tillman was just given a slap on the wrist?


Pat Jr. grew into a ferocious high school football player who could intimidate with size, speed and attitude. Unfortunately he often did the same thing off the field. "People in our town were basically afraid of my brother," says Kevin. "He just has this tough-man mentality about him."

"If there was trouble, you looked for Pat first," says Beard. "Usually it wasn't serious." (note the pattern of violent behavior which continued through both of mr. tillman's subsequent career choices) One time it was. In the fall of Pat's senior year, he went to the aid of a friend in a fight outside a pizza parlor and, in Pat's words, "beat the s---" out of his friend's assailant, who was in his early 20s. Several weeks after the incident Pat was arrested and charged as a juvenile (he was 17) with felony assault. Before the case was resolved, he accepted a scholarship to Arizona State (Brigham Young and San Jose State were the other schools that offered) but desperately feared it would be revoked. Pat quietly pleaded guilty to the charge. In the summer of '94 he served 30 days in a juvenile detention facility, and his conviction was reduced to a misdemeanor upon his release.

Tillman's incarceration ended two weeks before his first college football practice. Arizona State never learned of his trouble with the law.

from http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/magazine/04/23/tillman.flashback /

now that's criminal behavior to me - but apparently it's the type of heroic behavior this bloodthirsty nation craves

[redqueen]

112. Wow, Tillman was actually convicted?

I'm impressed the prosecutor didn't just get him out of it with some kind of plea deal. A whole 30-day-sentence you say? I wonder how much of that claim Tillman made (beat the $hit out of him) is just bragging, and how much is fact.

[treepig]

116. well, since his own brother says the whole town was afraid of him

there's probably more than a kernel of truth to it.

the bottom line is that if this was a black kid (football prowess notwithstanding), he'd most likely still be locked up for this crime.

instead he's a hero, even to (almost) all of the supposed progressive-leaning denizens of this forum - all i can conclude is that's it's one scary country we live in where a thug such as mr. tillman receive universal acclaim across the political spectrum, and any attempts to inject a bit of reality are harshly shouted down.

[redqueen]

118. True,

if it's common knowledge in the town that he's a brute, then I guess it would be a bit harder for the prosecutor / judge to let him off any easier than they did.

But I wouldn't say it would only be a minority who would be treated differently. Seems to me it would be anyone who was poor and NOT on a sports scholarship. If the hypothetical minority kid you mention had a football scholarship, do you still think it would mean anything?

[treepig]

119. that's a o.j. simpson v. marcus dixon scenario

actually, o.j.simpson may be the out-lier here.

consider the case of marcus dixon (discussed on another thread i can't locate right now):

In May 2003, Dixon received a 10-year sentence for aggravated child molestation, one of the “seven deadly sins” under Georgia law, even though a Floyd County jury acquitted him of rape, aggravated assault, false imprisonment and sexual battery.

The sentence was not the only reason the case drew national attention. The NAACP and other Dixon advocates protested the outcome, noting the accuser was white while Dixon was black

At the time of the incident, Dixon was a 6-6, 250-pound defensive end and honor student carrying a 3.96 GPA at Pepperell High School. Dixon was awarded a scholarship to Vanderbilt and headlined head coach Bobby Johnson’s 2003 signing class. The scholarship was revoked after the conviction.

more at:

http://www.nashvillecitypaper.com/index.cfm?section_id=7&screen=news&news_id=32826

[rumguy]

146. wait - he was 17 and helped a friend - it didn't look like he started it

calm down...this Tillman hate froth is getting real real fucking old...

[redqueen]

149. You're claiming that based on what?

You seem to think that Tillman jumped into a fight that was going on at the time. Where did you get that information? If I'm mistaken please do enlighten me.

[rumguy]

151. here

"In the fall of Pat's senior year, he went to the aid of a friend in a fight outside a pizza parlor and, in Pat's words, 'beat the s---' out of his friend's assailant, who was in his early 20s."

[treepig]

153. good job at selective reading!!

did you miss this part?

Pat Jr. grew into a ferocious high school football player who could intimidate with size, speed and attitude. Unfortunately he often did the same thing off the field. "People in our town were basically afraid of my brother," says Kevin. "He just has this tough-man mentality about him."

"If there was trouble, you looked for Pat first," says Beard.


this guy's violent behavior wasn't a one time (possibly excusable) occurence. it was an ongoing PATTERN well known in the town. so, although he was only charged ONCE (and god knows how many other times he was let off the hook, as athletes are - for example, how many of the colorado U football rapists are now serving time?) that's definitely not the only time he was out of control

[rumguy]

159. So he was a tough guy when he was young

Why do you care? What do you really know about him?

The incident cited in the article occurred when he was 17 and he was sticking up for a friend. The guy he fought was in his twenties...

[bigbillhaywood]

34. Hey corporatewhore, I usually like your posts, but I don't see how

tearing down Tillman as a hero and calling him an idiot (whether he was or not) serves the left at all. I think Rall should have placed more emphasis on the media as villians rather than Tillman himself. It's not like tearing down the Reagan myth, Tillman (howevr misguided or wrong his actions were) did not seek glorification. The right-wing just got lucky when he died-- otherwise few would care about the second-rate QB serving in Afghanistan.

[corporatewhore]

53. maybe you'd like this one better

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1519918
yeah i agreee more emphasis on media but i too got pretty fucking fed up with all the hero worship about pat tillman.I just cantstand it that our society worships the soliders.My friend said they were either idiots cowards or monsters.Idiots caused they believed all that bs cowards cause if they realise that what they are doing is not right but fall back on falling orders or the monsters as seen in abu ghraib. I think tha a solider who goes awol is more brave than pat tillman types

[stopthegop]

54. "a solider who goes awol is more brave than pat tillman types"

you are seriously mistaken...and deluded...
have a good evening...

[corporatewhore]

59. takes more guts to follow conscience than to follow orders

[bigbillhaywood]

63. Depends on why they go AWOL. n/t

[Delano]

85. I agree. There's such a thing as "conscientious objector"

That is the high road. AWOL is cowardly. If I had been an enlisted man, I would have been a conscientious objector rather than serve in Iraq. Service members have entered into an agreement that they should not try to shirk by running away.

As a civilian, however, I would go to any lenght to avoid the draft, because I consider the draft to be slavery, and inappropriate, except in the defense of our borders, or an extraordinary threat to our allies.

[bigbillhaywood]

62. My point is this...

You may be right, but cartoons like this only preach to the converted. The only possible reaction from people who don't already feel this way is angry backlash-- thus it's counterproductive. A more subtle approach to criticism of the hero worship would be much more effective.

The cartoon reminds me of the Sparts who stand in Harvard Square with copies of the "Workers Vanguard" with headlines like "Down with US imperialism!" and argue with anyone who has the slightest deviation from their party line. But at least the Sparts might pick up some recruits for their organization in the process (albeit not many). What can Ted Rall possibly hope to accomplish with this cartoon other than pleasing the small segment of the population that already agrees with him, and pissing everyone else off?

[corporatewhore]

166. its just a cartoon and ya it probably is mainly for the lefties

rall usually plays it safe and only goes after bush.Alot ofus lefties just play it safe with slogans like support our troops bring them home and peace is patriotic. And not say criticizing capitalism or statism as the root causes of war etc.. Alotta of us feel the pressure of not offending the mainstream.Ember this is only a cartoonI dont think that is the proper medium for critical analysis.(this is just my opinion) but i feel that rall did this cartoon out of frustration and for us lefties who have had enough.I do love provocative cartoons though and they do have their place to cause reactions for example Carlos Latuff's Sept.11th which had the words Palestine iraq sudan panama hiroshima nagasaki in the shape of the twin towers.Now that i think about it isnt political art supposed to be provocative it doesn't always have to be mild.

[IrateCitizen]

168. Well I'm a lefty, and I found this cartoon reprehensible

In your comparison with the Twin Towers artwork, you're missing the very essence of the difference between "provocative" and "tastelessly offensive". This Rall cartoon falls into the latter category.

Rather than force people to think about unpleasant truths, the cartoon's whole purpose seems to be just to shock, without any real, substansive underlying message. If anything, the message seems to be that Pat Tillman was just a dumb, racist, bloodthirsty jock who deserved what he got. Given what is coming to light about Tillman, it seems that this characterization is as far from the truth about him as the north pole is from Colombia.

This cartoon has about as much value as "provocative art" as a typical Howard Stern show featuring two farting lesbians. It may be provocative, but it doesn't really compel anyone to think, and it isn't anywhere close to being considered artistic.

[reformed_military]

106. Don't know where to begin with this one.

I just cantstand it that our society worships the soliders.

You can thank the soldiers for your freedom to express these feelings.

My friend said they were either idiots cowards or monsters.

And so can your friend.

Idiots caused they believed all that bs

Guess you can count me in this group.

cowards cause if they realise that what they are doing is not right but fall back on falling orders or the monsters as seen in abu ghraib.

Where do you think MARI333's son falls in here? Isn't he stationed in Abu Ghraib?

I think tha a solider who goes awol is more brave than pat tillman types :crazy:

I don't think comparing the American Soldier to the Nazi soldier will further our cause, it only just marginalizes it.

BTW, Tillman was a Defensive Back, not QB.

[TexasMexican]

35. Wow what an asshole.

People who shit on this dead guys grave makes the rest of us look like assholes aswell.

[dpt223]

36. upsetting

I the blatant disrespect in that cartoon upsetting.

The man got swept up in the hype of surrounding 9/11.

I cannot say whether or not he was a hero, but I do greatly respect him for the sacrifices that he made. There are very few people that would turn down 3.6 million for anything.

Bottom line, Tillman gave it all up to do what he thought right, and we all should respect him for that.

[robbedvoter]

37. Rall also wrote we should skip primary elections and just crown Dean

The cartoon is fine until the last panel. That's where "no elections" Rall returns.

[Uzybone]

175. Oh yeah

Im sure the Rall apologists will totally forget that ridiculous column. I lost all respect for Rall when he wrote up that tripe.

[leftofthedial]

40. sure he wasn't pat moran?

Ted Rall rocks.

We are the occupying fascists. Hard to support that.

[scottcsmith]

41. Disgusting

An idiot? The man is a veteran, a man with family who will never see their brother, uncle, or son ever again. To make fun of a dead U.S. soldier is reprehensible. Ted Rall should be ashamed of himself.

[bigbillhaywood]

44. Too general, not general enough.

"To make fun of a dead U.S. soldier is reprehensible"

1. In this case perhaps, but what about making fun of a perpetrator of the Mei Lei massacre?

2. Only U.S. soldiers?

[wicket]

48. I second that

[diamond14]

43. a poignant reminder of how OUR young people are getting duped

by the giant bush* PR spin machine....Ted Rall is right on....

this cartoon is not about tillman at all....it's about OUR young patriotic people who are DYING for the bush* LIE....

OUR young people are being KILLED every day for NOTHING....

that upsets me, and it should upset every single Patriotic American


read this from a Vietnam War Veteran, published in the Baltimore Chronicle recently....it's a real eye-opener....says that same thing as Ted Rall only in a different venue....

http://baltimorechronicle.com/041704reTreason.shtml

-snips-

Some Dare Call It Treason: Wake Up America!
by Dr. Robert Bowman, USAF Ret.

We are upholding the spirit of the American Revolution. We are preserving the freedoms that the troops in the desert have a right to come back to.

I am a member of Veterans For Peace, an organization of thousands of combat veterans. All of us have put our life on the line for this country. Most of us opposed the recent invasion of Iraq. We also opposed the first Gulf War, and the sanctions that followed. We opposed the slaughter of fleeing Iraqis on the Road to Basra. We opposed the use of Depleted Uranium munitions. And we opposed the lies upon which the first Gulf War was based. But there was one good thing about that first Gulf War. It ended. And without a wholesale invasion of Iraq. Why?

I've been severely criticized for speaking out in opposition to this war. So have you, probably. We're told that we're aiding and abetting the enemy. We're told that we should support the president no matter what. We're told that patriotism demands that we support the war. They say that we're abusing the freedoms that our troops are in the Middle East defending. They say we should be ashamed to be protesting while the troops are in the desert protecting our right to do so.

Well I say, Hogwash!

I joined the Air Force to protect our borders and our people, not the financial interests of Folgers, Chiquita Banana, and Exxon.

I feel an affinity for the troops over there in Iraq. They are my comrades in arms. I admire their sense of honor and sacrifice. I understand why some of them believe they should be there. They have neither the experience nor the wisdom to see past the lies they have been told. The truth is, they are not over there protecting our freedoms. Our freedoms are not under attack from Saddam Hussein or the remnants of his Baathist party. Our freedoms are under attack by John Ashcroft. They are threatened by John Poindexter. They are trampled by Donald Rumsfeld. They are disdained by Dick Cheney. And they are not even understood by George W. Bush. The battle to preserve our freedoms is not taking place in Baghdad and Tikrit. It is taking place in Central Park in New York City, in Lafayette Park in Washington DC, in Ghirardelli Park in San Francisco, and in River Front Park in Melbourne, Florida. The front lines go right down US 1 and up New Haven Avenue.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

46. Ted Rall strikes again!

I love the way he is fearless about debunking shit.

Dont forget this guy came out of the punk movement, so dont expect the conventional pietys from him, oh no.

[stopthegop]

49. not conventional pietys...I'm OK with that..

but what about basic human decency?
edit: spelling

[corporatewhore]

56. thats why i love him too

[rinsd]

58. "so dont expect the conventional pietys from him, oh no."

That would explain his "look at me" taste for controversey.

[Nlighten1]

50. Too funny because it is true.

[THUNDER HANDS]

55. this isn't cool

Rall should stick to bashing Bush. I don't see the need in attacking Tillman out of the blue like this.

[corporatewhore]

61. so i gots to leave my flame ola fest be back in a couple of hours

[Zero Division]

64. Thanks a f'in lot Ted

:eyes:

Such a woefully simplistic judgment on Rall's part.

Ted should write a book: "How to shoot your own political allies in the foot and help ruin their collective reputation."

[Failure]

66. I was sayin' that the very first day...nt

[Steely_Dan]

67. I Like It - It Speaks Volumes

I think that this cartoon is right on the mark.

First of all (as a side bar, but related), this whole hero-worship of Pat Tillman is BS ...along the same lines as Jessica Lynch.

Countless soldiers gave up (in my opinion) far more than did Pat. Pat had the luxury of having money already in place to make such a decision. So he gave up millions....so what? Did the poor reserve soldier give up any less? Everything is relative. Reservists fighting in Iraq gave up jobs to get paid less while putting their lives on the line. Is that any different??? Many will not get their jobs back upon returning (whenever that might be).

We throw around the word "hero" so much that it has lost it's meaning and impact.

I hate when firemen are called "heroes" because they put out fires and save lives. Guess what, that's their job...to put out fires and save lives. It's dangerous and risky, but it is their choice.

IMHO, being a hero means that you place your life in danger to save someone else...when it isn't your obligation to do so. It is done purely out of a sense of humanity...a reaction to a dangerous situation that is done (mostly) without thinking.

I admire Pat Tillman. He seems like a stand-up guy. But a "hero?" I don't think so.

-Paige

[Disturbed]

68. Naive

Tillman was naive. He bought the hype about terrorism. He could have done alot more good for the people of America and Afghanistan by contiuing to play football and placing some of his income of millions toward causes that help people instead of killing them.

[MAlibdem]

69. I saw him speak last summer in New York

Funny guy...sometimes over the top.

Though I admit that was my initial reaction to hearing the news, but more along the lines of "what a waste." my first inclination was not "hero"

[Devil Dog Dem]

71. This is beyond sickening. It doesn't belong on DU

Take this crap and go somewhere else.

[nostamj]

75. as much as I (usually) like Rall's work

I rejected this one immediately when putting together "The STUPID War" TOON post this morning.

(and used another Rall TOON instead)

target Tillman, or rather, using Tillman to target RW media just didn't work.

[Bluzmann57]

76. Anybody who thinks Tillman was an idiot

can go fuck themselves. At least he had the guts to do what he thought was his duty, unlike anyone who chickened out. Cpl. Tillman and all others who are over there are doing what they think is right, and although I hate the illegal occupation of Iraq, I respect the majority of most the soldiers over there. At least have respect for the dead. I'll stop writing now, because that "idiot Tillman" remark really angers me.

[corporatewhore]

90. i am sure some nazi soliders believed in what they were fighting for

aswell and believe they were fighting for whats right would you have any resptect for them

[roguevalley]

95. Amazing. Tillman is dead. He never said he was a hero. He just had

convictions he followed when he didn't have to. I am sure he would be sickened by the display people have made about him after his death. I
am sure he had his reasons and he paid the complete price for him. I would think that would be enough for Ralls but sometimes just killing someone you dislike once isn't enough.

[rumguy]

77. Al Queda not in Afghanistan?

[progressivebydesign]

82. Look over in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan if you'd like to find them.. N/T

[rumguy]

147. they were in Afghanistan

and still are...

[MrSlayer]

86. Talk about hitting below the belt.

The guy is dead, giving his life for what he believed was the defense of the country and an asshole like this demeans his sacrifice by calling him an idiot? This is wrong. He may have been fooled by the original cover story for 9/11 as were many but his intentions were sincere. A lot of people, including myself, bought into the story initially and were screaming for blood. Hell, my buddies and I were ready to join up ourselves. It wasn't until later, when the emotion died down, that I started looking at the holes in the story and discovered what I believe to be the truth. They made it happen themselves. Is Pat Tillman an idiot for not discovering this? I don't think so, the guy joined up on September 12th, was indoctrinated into the Elite Rangers and went right to battle with pure intentions. It's easy, knowing what we know now, to call him a fool. But all things considered the guy is definitely a hero and someone to be admired, not ridiculed. The ones who deserve the ridicule are those who use our best soldiers as cannon fodder for their personal gain.

[library_max]

87. Well, it's a legitimate way of looking at it.

But it's the Dumbest. Politics. Ever.

[Strelnikov_]

88. Seems That The Right Does Not Have A Monopoly . .

. . . on unfeeling assholes.

[mitchum]

92. You missed the point of Rall's cartoon (stridency will do that)

Rall's cartoon is insightful, but he did not call Tillman an idiot. So, why did you feel that it was necessary to include the word in your headline?

[corporatewhore]

97. took it from another site thought it was the actual title

i usually oonly see ralls work in my local weekly and in the last panel it says "idiot" and "sap"

[TheWizardOfMudd]

94. I have no problem with ANY cartoon

If a cartoonist offends you that much, don't read him or her. Cartoons don't harm people.

I think the point needs to be made that Tillman did not do his family any favors. How appreciative can they be, will they be in the future?

Were we in dire straits in Afghanistan due to a shortage of men? If so, it was because Bush derailed and blew a psycho wad on Iraq. Why die for a mistake, anyway?

I'm sorry for you, Pat, but I am much more sorry for your wife and children.

[John_H]

96. LOL! When's he going to do one about teeth dropping freeper trolls?

[bhunt70]

98. My cartoon would just say

Rall your cartoon sucks.

free speech - you gotta love it.

[PopSixSquish]

99. I'm Using My Freedom of Speech to Say this Cartoon is Wrong

Let others use Mr. Tillman's death to make a statement. May he and all our servicemen and women who have been killed in combat rest in peace.

[VolcanoJen]

100. I love Ted Rall, but I absolutely loathe this cartoon.

I fucking hate it, to be brutally honest.

[wtmusic]

120. agree

amazed to see this coming from him

[Vladimir]

102. I generally don't find Rall funny

but for once, I think he nails it here. Tillman was brave, but he was no hero.

also see Ted's explanation: http://www.rall.com/rants.html

[Loonman]

103. Poor taste

nt

[veganwitch]

107. whats even more dispicable...

average men and women are dying everyday on the field and they dont get nearly the coverage that this guy did.

[Ilsa]

108. I'm not going to speak ill of the dead for being mislead

by our corrupt regime. He did what he thought was right, even if it was for the wrong reasons. I don't know enough about him to judge his motivations, I won't judge him.

I don't care for the cartoon.

[theboss]

110. I never really cared for Rall; now I may despise him

I thought the controversy with the UMass grad student was overblown because he was a nobody. Well, Rall is a somebody and if he loses his career over this, so be it.

I'm not even sure what the point of this cartoon is.

That Tillman is an idiot? That anyone who joins the military is an idiot?

Just a disgusting display.

[IrateCitizen]

111. Wholly counterproductive and in incredibly bad taste

Regardless of whether or not one agrees with Pat Tillman's views, or whether or not anyone here is even aware of what his views were, it is the pinnacle of bad taste to deride him in such an ineffective, immature manner for following a path in life that he believed in.

How many times do we castigate RW cowards here who advocate war yet fail to put themselves on the line to support their beliefs? Here was a guy who actually gave up his comfort in order to live his beliefs. Here is a guy who actually gave his life for his beliefs. Now, you can debate the merit of whether or not his life was given in support of a noble cause or if it was wasted -- but it is the epitome of foolishness to criticize him personally for doing so.

BTW, corporatewhore -- didn't you say that your father is an active duty officer? If so, does that make your dad an idiot as well? Just curious....

[redqueen]

115. All this outrage over one man's opinion

Interesting.

I can see why people consider this to be politically unwise, however the reasons it is unwise are the same reasons that crap like this is necessary. Vitally important, even.

What else will get the other side talking about these issues? Seriously - I'm sure the party loyalists have their minds sealed shut, but all I can do is hope that someone from 'our side' is calling into their RW shows and airing the points made on this thread by John O'Neil's Memory and others.

The sad fact is that war solves nothing. Hitler could have been prevented if the financing weren't there. Same as with Al Qaeda.

As long as we cloud the minds of the young with jingoistic, mindless hero-worship for those that pledge to kill for reasons they don't even care to bother to make an effort to understand, we'll be paying to send those people to go kill innocents in our name.

[diamond14]

123. true, it's vitally important....OUR young people are KILLED every day

because they have been 'duped' and played for 'saps' by bush* GIANT PR spin machine....IMO, plenty young people went over to Iraq to 'Kill Arabs' ....as evidenced by recent bush* sex-torture-scandal POW photos, some young people ENJOY torturing and killing others....some young people actually think they are fighting for America, when the evidence proves that they are really fighting to "prop up puppet rulers and exploit gas and oil resources"....and it's time that Americans realized that before they send MORE of OUR young people off to DIE for bush*s LIE....

the points made by rall's heavy-hitting 'cartoon' are NOT about Tillman...Tillman just represents an extreme example of young American lives lost to a LIE....there are many many many less prominent examples of Tillmans' story....young Americans who were 'duped' and KILLED, just like Tillman...

"somebody has to do something...it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us".....Jerry Garcia....

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProfessorGAC]

125. Buh Bye!

One thread and you've made your mind up. And you are lecturing others on thoughtful debate? Curious, indeed.
The Professor

[Gryn]

136. Thank you for proving my point.

I'll bite for one more post.

You willfully ignored the text of my post. I objected to my post being deleted (i.e. censorship). It wasn't even over the top or inflammatory, just some moderator in a bad mood apparently. I assume that because I hadn't much history here someone felt safe removing it. I have not had anyone even take issue with any of my other posts on any other site before.

In addition I wanted to point out that just as in the 60's and 70's when you had right-wing elements stoking the darker side of the left and liberal movements that the same thing could be going on today. Some of the posts here sometimes seem like a right-wingers parady of a liberal person (I speak from experience dealing with anti-choice infiltrators into planning sessions for women's clinic defense). I think it's important to keep that in mind before playing into their hands to give them red-meat to their ditto-heads.

I assume these posts will be migrated to the memory hole as well so it doesn't really matter what I say does it.

[ProfessorGAC]

145. I Proved Your Point?????

I don't think so. Rather, you've proven mine apropos your attitude.

You decided from the experience of a thread or two, and the deletion of a single post, that people here cannot conduct serious debate.

That is not the stuff of "thoughful" discussion. Lecturing others on their inabilities to conduct "thoughtful" debate, while jumping to conclusions based upon limited data is hubris and arrogance.

If you expect anybody to be anything other than dismissive of a post with the tone reflected in the one to which i replied, then you are fooling only yourself.

Being relatively new, and then castigating others as to why you're too good to be here, is not much of a way to engender empathy for your point of view. It's actually a way to get a reply such as mine.

I'll stand by it.
The Professor

[FredScuttle]

121. A cheap, cheap shot

Regarding the "brutal reality" crowd, are you so sure that Tillman signed up to (in words Rall puts in Tillman's mouth) "kill Arabs"?

A despicable smear that's wholly undeserved...Rall should be ashamed of himself.

[treepig]

124. wholly undeserved?

come on, this guy was a menace to society - particularly (and probably ironically) if judged by the standards of the right wing fundies who worship him so - their holy book states

"By their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt 7)


so what were mr. tillman's fruits?

a long standing history of violence behavior:

1) in high school he was convicted of felony assault and his whole town was afraid of him

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/magazine/04/23/tillman.flashback/

2) after that he joined the nfl, a rather violent organization where 21% of the participants have committed serious (and usual violent) crimes:

http://www.onlineathens.com/1998/102998/1029.s1viol.html


3) after that, he volunteered to join the u.s. military, an organization with solid, century-old credentials at spreading mayhem and violence everywhere:

http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/interventions.htm


see any pattern here? "By their fruits ye shall know them" (or was jesus wrong?)

[IrateCitizen]

126. In the spirit of evenhandedness...

It is also important to note Tillman's accomplishments.

He was the last scholarship given to ASU -- a position usually foretelling of obscurity -- and worked his way up to a starter and PAC-10 defensive player of the year.

He was the PAC-10 student/athlete of the year, graduating in less than 4 years with a GPA over 3.8.

He was drafted in the last round of the NFL draft, as almost an afterthought, and had worked his way up to starting strong safety by the end of his rookie season.

I'm not saying that what you posted above is untrue. I'm simply saying that it's not accurate to talk about him only in terms of negative things he did without mentioning more positive accomplishments.

[redqueen]

127. In all fairness

treepig was responding to a post stating that Rall's claim that Tillman wanted to join to 'kill Arabs' was 'wholly undeserved'.

I think treepig was just trying to show how it might not be so 'wholly' undeserved, not just trashing him for no reason.

It seems a bit silly to present evidence that someone may be a brute to someone questioning whether someone deserves that label, then go about lauding his accomplishments.

:shrug:

[treepig]

129. i agree, there are two sides to the story here

however, the side you present has already been presented umpteenth million times so i did not feel it was really necessary to regurgitate the information you provide yet again.

for some reason, however, the more shady aspects of his background have rarely if ever been mentioned (unless it's done by myself or one or two other posters here at du). myself, i'd probably not do it either if he was just presented as another misguided victim of mr. bush's wars. however, when it's hammered over and over that he's a "hero" - and any dissent regarding this point is harshly criticized - that just tends to irk me no end.

[IrateCitizen]

156. No, you're absolutely right to bring those things up

Perhaps if the discussion had been in a different context -- absent this completely tasteless cartoon -- I would probably not have reacted the way that I did.

Just think -- if I'm an antiwar type reacting this way to this cartoon, what effect do you think it has on people who are a little more "mainstream"? That's why I think that Ted Rall's a horse's ass for publishing this in the first place -- it will only serve to alienate.

[FredScuttle]

164. "Menace to society"? Don't make me laugh, Treepig

Congratulations on joining Rall in pissing on this man's grave...I hope you're proud of yourself.

In response to your ridiculous claims:

1) "a long standing history of violence behavior"? You cite one incident where he got into a fight to help his friend. ONE fight does not equal a "long standing history of violent behavior". In addition, from what the article indicates, he learned his lesson and modified his behavior off the field, something few young men in his position seem to grasp.

2)"after that he joined the nfl, a rather violent organization where 21% of the participants have committed serious (and usual violent) crimes" - oh, I see...he plays in the NFL so he must be a sociopath. Are you claiming that Tillman is in that 21% of violent offenders? If not, please refrain from smearing a man who can't defend himself.

3)"after that, he volunteered to join the u.s. military, an organization with solid, century-old credentials at spreading mayhem and violence everywhere" - once again, tarring Tillman with the broadest smear you could think of. Are you ready to smear all those current servicemen and women (including many related to DUers here) with the same brush?

You seem to be on such a zealous crusade to smear Tillman that the very idea of decency and respect seem to have been as lost on you as they are on Rall. You two deserve each other.

[treepig]

167. one fight??

did you miss this part?

Pat Jr. grew into a ferocious high school football player who could intimidate with size, speed and attitude. Unfortunately he often did the same thing off the field. "People in our town were basically afraid of my brother," says Kevin. "He just has this tough-man mentality about him."

"If there was trouble, you looked for Pat first," says Beard.


this guy's violent behavior wasn't a one time (possibly excusable) occurence. it was an ongoing PATTERN well known in the town. so, although he was only charged ONCE (and god knows how many other times he was let off the hook, as athletes are - for example, how many of the colorado U football rapists are now serving time?)

why you and most of the other progressives on this board are hellbent on defending this hoodlum is beyond me.

[FredScuttle]

169. And you know this.....how?

Did you grow up with him?
Did you grow up in his town?
Have you conducted extensive interviews with his family, friends, neighbors, classmates from his teen years?

Of course not...you read a couple paragraphs in a Sports Illustrated profile and all of a sudden, you're an expert in the criminal history of Pat Tillman. Just to clue you in, those Sports Illustrated articles usually include a fair bit of exaggeration to make the story a little juicier. With out specific detail of a transgression beyond the fight mentioned, I have no reason to believe that Pat Tillman "had a long violent history". Hell, I got into a fight when I was 17...do I have a pattern of violent behavior?

It should give you some clue that me and "most of the other progressives" are reacting so violently...you're insulting a man who died in service to his country. We can agree that the war is wrong, but let's leave the trashing of the people fighting it to the * Cabal when they speak out against the war, OK?

[FredScuttle]

171. Oh, and by the way

any response you have on why Rall felt the need to have Tillman say he signed up to "kill Arabs" is welcome. I'd love to hear how calling a dead veteran a racist helps our cause.

[MrBenchley]

122. PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: Ted Rall sucks.

That is all.

http://maxspeak.org/mt/archives/000395.html

By the way, Maxspeak does not.

[The Blue Knight]

128. Rall just ruined his career. Good I say, he's an asshole.

This makes me sick. Tillman dies fighting for America, he dies a soldiers death, so this asshole can write lame cartoons and poke fun at him? We should send Rall to Afghanistan, and see how him and his family likes it.

Oh, and by the way. I'm a political junkie, and I'm enlisting in the Army this summer. Way to make a broad, sweeping generilization, asshole.

[redqueen]

130. You're enlisting?

Ironic, considering your sig. And PNAC. But whatever.

[treepig]

135. there are moments in history when military service is completely

honorable.

i doubt that this is one of them, for example consider afghanistan (which many even here at DU consider to be a just or necessary war as compared to iraq) and then please explain why you wish to be part of an operation headed by mr. bush - who in a totally predictably manner based on his past records of fucking up everything he touches - has accomplished in afghanistan:

1. The Convoy of Death

It tells the story of thousands of prisoners who surrendered to the US military’s Afghan allies after the siege of Kunduz. According to eyewitnesses, some three thousand of the prisoners were forced into sealed containers and loaded onto trucks for transport to Sheberghan prison. Eyewitnesses say when the prisoners began shouting for air, U.S.-allied Afghan soldiers fired directly into the truck, killing many of them. The rest suffered through an appalling road trip lasting up to four days, so thirsty they clawed at the skin of their fellow prisoners as they licked perspiration and even drank blood from open wounds.

Witnesses say that when the trucks arrived and soldiers opened the containers, most of the people inside were dead. They also say US Special Forces re-directed the containers carrying the living and dead into the desert and stood by as survivors were shot and buried. Now, up to three thousand bodies lie buried in a mass grave.

The film has sent shockwaves around the world. It has been broadcast on national television in Britain, Germany, Italy and Australia. It has been screened by the European parliament. It has outraged human rights groups and international human rights lawyers. They are calling for investigation into whether U.S. Special Forces are guilty of war crimes.

But most Americans have never heard of the film. That’s because not one corporate media outlet in the U.S. will touch it. It has never before been broadcast in this country.


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3267.htm

Airlifting the "real terrorists" out of Afghanistan

On November 25th, the Northern Alliance took Kunduz, capturing some four thousand of the Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters. The next day, President Bush said, "We're smoking them out. They're running, and now we're going to bring them to justice."

Even before the siege ended, however, a puzzling series of reports appeared in the Times and in other publications, quoting Northern Alliance officials who claimed that Pakistani airplanes had flown into Kunduz to evacuate the Pakistanis there. . . . American intelligence officials and high-ranking military officers said that Pakistanis were indeed flown to safety, in a series of nighttime airlifts that were approved by the Bush Administration. The Americans also said that what was supposed to be a limited evacuation apparently slipped out of control, and, as an unintended consequence, an unknown number of Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters managed to join in the exodus.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020128fa_FACT


3. Pilots on drugs killing our allies

Four Canadian soldiers died in Afghanistan last night after a US fighter jet mistakenly dropped one or two 500lb, laser-guided bombs on their unit.
Canadian officials said at least eight of their soldiers were wounded in the incident, which occurred during a well publicised live-fire training exercise near the southern town of Kandahar.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,686313,00.html


4. Killing more innocent afghani civilians than were killed in 9-11

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm


5. But on the positive side, agriculture is making a comeback, with certain crops at record high levels . . .

Poppy crop highest ever in Afghanistan


By Anwar Iqbal
UPI South Asian Affairs Analyst


WASHINGTON, March 1 (UPI) -- Afghanistan had the highest-ever cultivation of opium poppy in 2003 despite the government's effort to curb narcotics, a U.S. government agency reported Monday.

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040301-054323-1416r.htm

[w4rma]

143. Note, Ted Rall already went to Afghanistan (although as a journalist)

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/rall.html

[bicentennial_baby]

148. That book is incredible

I could'nt put it down...Must read material for anyone who's interested in the "facts on the ground" re: Afghanistan

[theboss]

131. My main contention with Rall is that he ruins legitimate arguments

There is a very good argument to be made that the Tillman story is being overhyped. I'm pretty confident in saying that Tillman himself would be mortified at the attention this is getting. He was probably had the smallest ego in all of professional sports.

I've had this discussion with people of various political stripes and it's one that can actually be made without pissing people off. Instead, Rall stomps in, calls the guy a mindless jerk, spouts a few mindless anti-military cliches, and turns the entire discussion into a toxic mess.

[redqueen]

133. Just curious

Which are the 'mindless anti-military cliches' in this cartoon?

[theboss]

139. So many in just 4 panels

That all soldiers are mindless and ill-informed.
That they are driven more by racism instead of duty.
That they are gullible and easily fooled.

Basically, I walked away from the cartoon believing that Rall believes that any soldier is a stupid, gullible racist idiot. In fact, he calls one an idiot.

[redqueen]

142. You're twisting

I understand the emotional response. I can't say I understand anyone placing that response ahead of a rational one, but I understand having it, at least.

For one thing, there is never a claim that all soldiers are mindless or ill-informed. At least that is if you're referring to the poster in the background says that they're looking for people who don't read the paper. However as I pointed out in a post below, a large part of the message in this comic is that people are making the deicsion to enlist not based on any real need, but on PR. If you take into consideration that we wouldn't even be IN this mess if more Americans paid more attention, then the point of the poster becomes more clear. IMO it's not that 'all soldiers are blah blah blah'.

Re: racism, I'll agree that the 'kill Arabs' was a bit off. However, knowing about Tillman's violent past, I can see where that was put there to illustrate *his* character, not that of all soldiers.

Re: gullible, easily fooled... I just can't. I will say this: I have no respect WHATSOEVER for any soldier in any prison who watches people tortured or abused and says nothing.

Anyone want to make a guesstimate of how many 'good soldiers' are currently keeping their lips sealed about what's going on at all the other prisons? Which according to Iraqis are even worse than Abu Ghraib? I'd be VERY interested to hear any responses from the many, many folks on this board who are so vehemently defending all soldiers from ANY insult from ANYONE.

[theboss]

144. Tillman's violent past?

What do you mean?

The point is, Rall is saying that Tillman is a racist. He called a dead man a racist with no proof.

Then he called him an idiot.

As for nuance I may be missing, Rall's not talented enough to be nuanced. That's like saying Anne Coulter is nuanced.

[redqueen]

150. See post #109

As for your repeating your other criticisms. Yes, I saw them the first time. Thanks, though.

[theboss]

158. He beat a guy up in high school? Clutch the pearls!!!

The fact that he was convicted of a felony is obviously nothing to be proud of, but I would hardly call a fight where he beat up someone who was fighting a friend "a violent past."

John Kerry has twenty official kills. Does that make him a mass murderer?

[tkulesa]

173. I don't see any of those ideas in his cartoon

I think you are seeing insult simply because you want to see it there. Just because you don't like Rall doesn't mean he's as bad as you think he is.

If anything, Rall is much more aware of the reality of military campaigns. He has a realistic and pragmatic view of military force. He does not idolize and idealize the military. How you get from this to the idea that he somehow thinks all soldiers are ill-informed, mindless, racist, gullible and easily fooded I have no idea.

In many cases Rall does a good job of showing that our administration and it's military policy is racist, but that's different from the actual soldiers being racist.

As a side note, I'm sure some of the soldiers (only some) are racist. But that's a separate issue that Rall does not address because his cartoon deal with the broad general perspective, not with individual soldiers.

[theboss]

176. He put the words in Tillman's mouth

How is it a leap to assume he is saying Tillman is racist. If I had a cartoon of Bush saying, "I hate me some niggers," I would be trying to get across that Bush is racist.

[The Blue Knight]

134. Ironic, maybe. But if you knew me--you'd know that I have to do it

[redqueen]

140. Well now that you've changed your sig, it's not ironic

Hope you aren't killed in any of bush's wars for empire. :(

[denverbill]

132. Rall makes the left look really bad with this cartoon.

Is he trying to be the left's Fred Phelps?

All he's doing is giving Limbaugh and the right-wing echo chamber something to pull moderate voters to the dark-side with.

Tillman made a courageous, selfless decision to give up a lucrative career in football to serve his country. Whether you agree with the war or not, he made his decision to serve his country and he believed he was fighting terrorism. Calling him an idiot makes Rall an idiot, if you ask me.

Thanks for helping us lose votes Ted!:toast:

[The Blue Knight]

137. Army: We're looking for guys who don't read the paper.

Poster in first frame.

[redqueen]

141. I can see why you'd call that a military cliche

But considering that part of the message of the comic is that people are enlisting for ideals that are based on PR and not facts ... isn't the fact that too many Americans don't pay attention to the news and therefore are too easily duped into fighting meaningless and counterproductive wars a very vital point to make?

[karabekian]

138. ted rall is a talentless hack

I am offended by this cartoon much like his widows of 9-11 cartoon. This guy gives the left a bad name. And he sucks at drawing and isn't really funny. While many disagree with Pat Tillman, I think a lot respect him for his actions and are sad about his death.

[mopaul]

152. screw ted rall.....support mo paul

at least i can draw bush and make him look like a monkey

[wicket]

157. I like your cartoons a lot better than Rall's

:)

[ElementaryPenguin]

154. Bushler sent Tillman to his death!

BFEE/PNAC mob exploited American patriotism to further their endless war/empire agenda!! BASTARDS! What BushCo sent Tillman and others to do was wrong, but Tillman was brave enough to have himself be the one was killed in this unjust cause - rather than his comrades, or yes, any of us!

I hate these Bush manufactured wars - they are wrong and illegal - and I disagree with what Tillman was sent to do - but I can't help but admire and appreciate the guy's courage - he laid it on the line, trying to save fellow soldiers. I have no problem bashing the hell out of the policies he and his comrades were helping to implement - but I'm not going to bash Tillman - not me - for I don't believe I would have had such courage (and the same goes for the other brave souls there who are not famous - and that includes the Afghans and Iraqis too).

As for Rall, I usually love him. I know the point he was trying to make - and there is some merit to it - but I do agree that that point is blown by ridiculing Tillman (a brave, undoubtedly patriotic soul who was misled by Bushler) - something I could never bring myself to do. It's bad enough that BushCo wasted his life and exploits it now for political gain - I'm not going to put Pat Tillman down for putting his life on the line to save other Americans - not ever (much as I despise these unjust, stupid fucking wars!)

:puke:

[tkulesa]

155. I support him

I support Ted Rall's right to express his opinion. It's no more offensive than the vast majority of the stuff you hear from O'Reilly, Hannity and Limbaugh. And it's certainly far more factual and supported.

I agree with Rall the majority of the time, and I happen to agree with him this time too. I don't know Tillman or his motives for going joining the military, but dying for a bad cause does not not make you a hero.

Tillman did what he believed in, which is a good thing as far as that goes. I won't disparage him for leaving pro sports and following his convictions. That makes him a man to respect, but it still does not make him a hero.

[rinsd]

161. "And it's certainly far more factual and supported."

More like factoid supported by zealotry and petulance.

[tkulesa]

172. That's your opinion

Feel free to write him off because you don't care for what he says. I have yet to see him rely on "factoid."

Regarding Zealotry, well, I think issues of war and death are things that deserve strongly held opinions. Far better that than the lack of strong opinions that allow the neocons to walk all over the American public.

I wouldn't describe Rall as Petulant. Irate, maybe. Angry, sometimes. Justifiably so. But not Petulant. I wish more people were as irate and angry as Rall.

[rinsd]

174. "I have yet to see him rely on "factoid." "

Really in this comic alone he asserts that Pat Tillman is a moron who wants to kill arabs.

"Regarding Zealotry, well, I think issues of war and death are things that deserve strongly held opinions. Far better that than the lack of strong opinions that allow the neocons to walk all over the American public."

Agreed except Rall serves the same purpose as a moron screaming kill 'em all. His strong opinion actually works against the cause he embraces. I think he doesn't care about actual advancement of his cause and this is more about Rall being THE voice of subversive comics. Nobody ever went broke serving up red meat to the ravenous base. But that's just my opinion.

"I wouldn't describe Rall as Petulant. Irate, maybe. Angry, sometimes. Justifiably so. But not Petulant. I wish more people were as irate and angry as Rall."

Granted that's my opinion so there can be no "proof". We'll just have to disagree on that.

[ronnykmarshall]

160. Ted Rall needs to learn more about Tillman

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/05/04/SPG5K6FD091.DTL

Read what some of his family and friend said about him at his memorial.

Ted Rall can kiss my ass.

[PopSixSquish]

165. I was Just Getting Ready to Post a Link to This

Everyone on this thread needs to read this article. Mr. Tillman and family sound like people I'd love.

We're all guilty of perpetuating stereotypes, including Mr. Rall. As I stated above, let other use him for political statements.

Go in peace Pat.

[ShaneGR]

162. Absolutely uncalled for and completely disrespectful to the dead

Disgusting really. Words can't express how pathetic this cartoon is. Regardless of whether or not you agree with Iraq, or Afghanistan (I agree with Afghanistan but not Iraq) you are crossing a line when you begin insulting our dead. Especially someone who believed in something strong enough to give up millions, and his life, to go over there.

People like Ted Rall will bash Bush and Cheney (rightfully so) for not serving or not showing up, and in the next breath they'll trash the memory of a man who did serve and did go fight for what he believed in.

Shameful.

[Ksec]

170. IMO Tillman was just a guy who got caught up in

911 and wanted to do something about what happened. Was he an idiot. Nah I cant say that, I didn't know him personally to know if he was a blockhead or not.. Was he naive to think this was the way to go? Yep. Without a doubt. His naivety made him think our leaders had our best interests at heart.