Anyone else sick of hearing "They knew the risks when they signed up?"

[JaySherman]

I am getting sick and tired of hearing this argument from people. What a cold, unfeeling way to rationalize the deaths of the soldiers in Iraq. Maybe they did "know the risks," but they also thought the risk involved dying in service and defense of their country, not Halliburton and Bush's reelection. And how many of the the Guardsman and Reservists dying over there signed up thinking they'd ever be forced into the front line of a hot war? I'll wager not many.

It's a b.s. argument and I'm getting to the point where I want to smack anyone who uses it upside the head.

:grr::grr::grr:

[JohnLocke]

1. Psst...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x1010454

[JaySherman]

7. Thanks.

:toast:

[Skittles]

9. absolutely

it is a sickening attitude. Our solders are NOT TRAINED IN NATION BUILDING.

[rpannier]

2. Agreed

[Turbineguy]

3. OK, "They knew the risks when they signed up!"

at Free Republic.....

[Jade Fox]

4. All I want to know about anyone who supports the war is....

why haven't they enlisted? If you're under 40
and you support this war, then YOU go fight it!

No more armchair warriors!

[punpirate]

5. Yes.... Many didn't fully understand the risks.... n/t

[ecstatic]

6. Also sick of the, "Well Saddam killed thousands every day"

So I guess just as long as we stay under Saddam's numbers, everything is fine.... :wtf:? So much for the lie about liberation.

[soflalady]

8. I say "Well suit up then" several times a day

...listening to fat cats chatting up the war on TV.

None of us signed up for this.

[AmyStrange]

12. Where is this proof...

that Saddam killed thousands everyday? He's been in powere... what... 15 years? That means he's killed 5 and a half million people. What's the official count anyway and where's the proof?

I'm not saying Saddam was a saint...




sig:
"The Truth knows no master" - AmyStrange said to me in a dream

10) And best of all, check these out:

the "First Seven Days Underground" by Skinner:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/01/010127_7days.html
mirror pages:
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-1.html
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-2.html
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-3.html
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-4.html


the best "unofficial" DU slang Dictionary in the world:
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Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/


Serious serial killer news and
discussion at the "Serial Killer Cafe":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[LuLu550]

10. My son's friends DID NOT know the risks when they signed up

The thought they were going to be weekend warriors, one weekend a month, when they signed up with the National Guard. They were looking for a way to get the money to go to college. Now they are going to be lucky if they survive and have a chance to attend college.

[takebackthewh]

15. Well then

they were pretty stupid. That's what the whiners said during the first Iraq war -- that they didn't know they'd have to go to war.

Well if they didn't know it 12 years ago, why the hell hadn't they figured it out by now?

Do we have to put a warning label on the Army? "YOU MAY HAVE TO FIGHT PEOPLE!"

Duh! Morons!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. Real nice response. Here's a newsflash for you...

...in return for signing up for the military you expect:

1. To be commanded by reasonably intelligent people;

2. That they will only commit you to war for valid reasons;

3. You will be committed to war only as a last resort.

The people that are being sent to war today aren't being given any of those three points, are they? Their fearless "Mission Accomplished" leader is a loser, all of the reasons for going to war have proven to be false, and when the troops were sent to war it was definitely not the last resort.

When you lie to your own troops you're asking for trouble.

[treepig]

34. a hundred years of history

completely destroys each of your points - but who bothers to actually learn anything nowadays?

guess this is one situation where ignorance is not bliss

[blondeatlast]

38. Many are Guardsmen and Reservists.

They had no reason to expect they would enter battle conditions.

Go ahead, call these people morons:

http://www.pigstye.net/iraq/wd.php

[treepig]

42. i agree they shouldn't be called morons (or morans either)

but maybe, just maybe, gulf war I:

1990-91 - Gulf War (Desert Shield/ Desert Storm) - President George Bush mobilized the National Guard by Presidential Select Reserve Call-up, or PSRC, by Executive Order 12727 on Aug. 22, 1990. This was superceded by a partial mobilization on Jan. 17, 1991. Of the 265,322 reservists mobilized, 63,050 were Army Guardsmen and 12,428 were Air Guardsmen

and bosnia/kosovo:

1995-99 Bosnia (Joint Guard/Joint Forge/ Joint Endeavor) - President Clinton deployed the National Guard again on Dec. 8, 1995 through PSRC Executive Order 12982. Although this is an on-going mission, as of Nov. 22, 1999, 19,093 reservists have or are serving in the Bosnia

1999 Kosovo (Allied Force) - On April 27, 1999 through PRC: Executive Order 13120, President Clinton mobilized 4,000 voluntary reservists and 5,628 involuntary reservists. As of Nov. 22, 1999 3,420 Air Guardsmen were called; 2,132 have deployed to Kosovo during the conflict.

should have been a wake-up call - if you don't want combat exposure, get the hell out (or don't sign up in the first place)!!


a more complete list of combat exposure to the guardsmen/reservists here:

http://www.ngaus.org/newsroom/guard101-callups.asp

[Bridget Burke]

46. They thought they might have to Defend the USA.

Along with the weekend warrioring, they expected to be available for emergencies. Hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. And if our country needed to be defended, they expected to go. Too bad that the last 8 years before Bush had made this seem unlikely.

But the country was attacked. And that excuse was used to start 2 wars. Afghanistan was marginally connected to 9/11, although there's no proof our involvement has helped things there. And although Iraq had no real connection to 9/11, the phrase "since 9/11" remains a favorite excuse for just about anything. No WMD's, either.

They definitely did not join to invade a country illegally & begin policing a hostile population (for which most of them were NOT trained)--just to enrich Bush's corporate cronies.

Those who joined for education hadn't yet had the history & political science courses that might have allowed them to look at things more carefully. But they're being educated now.

Don't call them morons.

[bobbieinok]

50. post said they joined the NATIONAL GUARD - NOT THE ARMY !!!!

this is the FIRST time Guard has been in war in large numbers

in VN, those in Natnl Guard joined so they would NOT BE SENT TO VN

WHY do you think W joined the Guard?????

[seabeyond]

11. i disagree

i live in an area with a lot and these men are taking pride in going over, it is their value system and belief in protecting this country, being brave, this is their feeling and i have to honor that. also they feel mistakenly that the are retaliating from the deaths in 9/11, again mistakenly but many i hear believe this.

i have recently heard a lot of the soldiers killed signed up to go to battle after 9/11 because of 9/11

regardless of their belief in what they are doing, i can honor their belief, buti can also work on seeing another way, and reasonable solutions on pulling them out. save them from themselves.

i also know there are a lot of people that didnt sign up for this too

i just like to be fair and balance, and a lot of men believe in this. kinda like what randi said on aa, the military brainwashes you. she was. and she was smart and she believed, when she was in

[JaySherman]

14. Fine, but...

What they believe in and what they've been told they're fighting for is not what they're dying for. If any of them knew they were signing up to fight for Halliburton, how many would have still joined?

[AmyStrange]

16. These are the same kind of folks who do things like this...

my intent is not to be mean here, but testosterone will do crazy things to people and make them do crazy things in return:
======================================

Prosecutor: Transgender Teen 'Executed'
Wed Apr 14, 5:25 PM ET

By MICHELLE LOCKE, Associated Press Writer

FROM: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040414/ap_on_re_us/transgender_killing_1
HAYWARD, Calif. - The killing of Eddie "Gwen" Araujo was cold-blooded murder carried out by three men who became furious when they found out the beautiful girl they had sex with was biologically male, a prosecutor told a jury as their trial opened Wednesday.

Araujo, 17, was beaten and strangled in 2002 in a slaying that has drawn national attention to violence against transgender people, or those who believe their sexual identity is at odds with their biology.

Angry shouts of "Are you a woman or a man?" escalated to murder, fueled by the explosive combination of insecure male egos and "tough guy" personalities, prosecutor Chris Lameiro said.

"Make no mistake about it, Eddie's death was an execution," said Lameiro, who used female pronouns when referring to Araujo as "Gwen" or "Lida," the names she went by, but male pronouns when talking about Araujo as a victim.

<SNIP>

TO READ THE REST GO HERE:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040414/ap_on_re_us/transgender_killing_1




sig:
"The Truth knows no master" - AmyStrange said to me in a dream

10) And best of all, check these out:

the "First Seven Days Underground" by Skinner:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/01/010127_7days.html
mirror pages:
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-1.html
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-2.html
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-3.html
http://du.seattleactivist.org/DU-JAN-27-2001-Skinner-7days-4.html


the best "unofficial" DU slang Dictionary in the world:
http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/





Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/


Serious serial killer news and
discussion at the "Serial Killer Cafe":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[kentuck]

13. They had no idea that the biggest risk would be......

in the White House.

[sir_captain]

17. Anyone who uses that line

ought to have their heart examined

I'm totally with you

[Mountainman]

18. Yes I hate hearing that. People in the military in 2000 did not have a

clue about PNAC. They did not join to fight in a preemptive war. The did not join to have a commander in chief as evil as Bush. Sure they knew that if a real war broke out they might have to give their lives but they never in their minds thought that it would be like this.

[LDS Jock]

19. I'm sick of hearing it too

They didn't sign up with the knowledge they would be used for political purposes instead of legitimate ones. That makes a huge difference. Soldiers and their families are getting screwed. I think the attitude of people making this argument might be quite different if they had a kid serving over there.

[maveric]

20. Does that attitude also go for the Blackwater Security mercenaries?

The media has them down as poor contractors, victims, who were killed by ungrateful Iraqis while trying to help the very same people. You're hearing the opposite from the bu$hie media about them.
Those who joined the National Guard or Reserves are supposed to remain stateside. They didnt know the risks.

[JaySherman]

30. Tough question.

I don't particularly like mercenaries but I'm not sure where I stand as far as them knowing the risks. Gonna take a rain check on that one for now.

[FireHeart]

22. I'm afraid to burst your bubble, but...

"I, (Your Name Here), do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

The Oath says it all. While you COULD nitpick and say the Iraqi War is illegal, thus obeying the order itself is also illegal, it wouldn't hold up in any court that I know of. I do agree that recruiters are not giving potential recruits enough information to make a realistic choice. They are often flooded with all the benefits, but left in the cold to the harsh reality of combat.

That being said, once you take that Oath, it's binding you to OBEY the orders of those who are entitled to give them. Unfortunately, Dubya is one of them. :(

[AmyStrange]

23. Isn't that the same oath Bush took...

when he is innaugarated (minus the obeying the president part)?

I don't see Bush out there in the desert of Iraq. Besides it doesn't say anything about dying... all it says in defend. And also, it doesn't say "obey the order...", it says "Obey any LAWFUL order...". I know, I know, I'm being nit picky.

Just my weird ass opinion again,

d

[FireHeart]

24. Well, no it's not really weird but...

the Oath I am familiar with didn't include any "lawful" qualifier. Have they amended the Oath Of Enlistment? It's been a long time, perhaps they have. I don't know.

This is the text (as far as I know) of the Presidential Oath.

US Constitution, Article II, Section 1

Before he enter on the execution of his office, he shall take the following oath or affirmation:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Now we all know that Dubya is definitely not living up to the Oath Of Office. This is his crime and should be punished for it. However, this does not negate the Oath Of Enlistment. The UCMJ is very strict in regards to obeying orders. I've seen several cases in which someone was court martialed for disobeying an unlawful order.

I'm sure most people can see how sticky this thing can get.

[MrSlayer]

25. Yes, and I'm sickened by the callous attitude some show toward our people.

As I've said before. I am totally against the war, it's wrong, it's illegal, it's imperialism but I am not going to hope our guys lose and die. If we have to be there I want us to win the battles as fast as possible with as few casualties as possible.

[dawn]

26. Very sick of it.

Especially because so many young men and women sign up for the Reserves, for example, who don't expect to see combat. My ex-boyfriend wanted to do that, so he could pay for college. I hope he never did...I would hate to hear that he was in Iraq now.

[blondeatlast]

40. Precisely; an all-too-easily-overlooked part that the unsympathetic

in this thread missed.

I believe about 1/3 of the soldiers are Reservists and Guardsmen and women.

[Zinfandel]

27. Yes, no one told them that Bush would lie about EVERYTHING!!!

and just blindly toss away their lives...with his "God Bless America" bullshit!

[RapidCreek]

28. Yep but there is an easy response to that idiocy

They knew the risks, that is true. They knew they might loose their lives in defense of their country.

Unfortunately that is not what they are risking their lives doing today. They are risking their lives for pennies on the dollar mercenary work in the service of multinational corporations; multinational corporations who seek to hide their piracy behind the American flag; multinational corporation who seek to evade payment of the very taxes which keep that flag flying; multinational corporations exporting our jobs to the last place our soldiers were sent to serve as their mercenaries.

Nope that is not what our soldiers signed up for....and they have every right to refuse to succumb to the flagrant misuse of their services; a misuse which generates hostility toward the nation they are sworn to protect.

RC

[REP]

31. I Agree

They knew they might have to fight a war; they knew there was a risk of death. I am sure that most of the young people who signed up imagined defending our country.
I don't think they agreed to die to make Halliburton richer, though.

[Kanary]

29. It's a good racket

Create and maintain an underclass of kids who need a way to guarantee employment and the possibility of an education.

Then, ship 'em off to war.

Quite a racket.

Kanary

[Malva Zebrina]

36. Yup--and then give away their jobs to the ones who are currently jobless

I think there will be no more traditional type warfare in the future. Those who wish to cause us harm, will do what Bin Laden did, if Bin Laden is the one behind it. It should be obvious that any foreign wars the USA engages in will not be to "defend" the nation, but will be for some gain , as in the case of Iraq and possible Afganistan and it will be for the gain of corporations who will be the engine driving foreign policy in that direction.

I think many of them did sign up for the benefits, which we would all be paying for if they did go on to college in return for their service. To be fair, I also think many of them are thinking they are fighting an evil enemy in Iraq, believe in the epithets and lies of Bush , even if what he says is incoherent and beyond any form of clarity, and were aware of the situation when they signed up, -- aware meaning according to their right wing perceptions, and they are alongside those who do not want to be there at all.

NONE should have been deployed.

It was all done on lies as we know and it seems to have been forgotten that Bush blatantly lied, that Powell made a lying fool out of himself before the UN, the cover ups and the wordspeak of that lie by those sycophants around him and the incredible continuance of an arrogant Bush who INSISTS to this day, and says is publically, that we will still find WMD, hasn't it?

That was and is my fear. We seem to be helpless in the face of the Bush National Propaganda Machine, which has succeeded in glossing over every abuse, every crime, and every crooked bit of Republican slime Bush can produce.

The man has not done a thing for this country but is responsible for the 660 or so of American deaths and tens of thousands of Iraqi innocents.

I am hoping that Air America will be effective in countering that propaganda to the point where Bush can be exposed as the idiot he is.

[FubarFly]

32. The naive, earnest, patriotism of our young volunteers

will always be ruthlessly exploited at the whims of entrenched interests. The working class have become nothing more than sub-human fodder to the ruling elite, which is dramatically better than how they view the people of developing nations.

I wonder sometimes if the real reason the media and the Democratic opposition is mostly covering for the b*sh junta is that they fear that by exposing these monsters, they will in the process rip the beautiful facade off the face of the American Dream, and reveal the horror which lies underneath. They fear they will have opened a Pandora's Box which they aren't equipped to close.

I think that our greatest failure as a culture is when we are confronted with the choice of facing a painful, but principled truth or falling back on an easy, familiar lie, we will overwhelmingly settle for the false comfort of the ignoble lie.

A leader who leaves behind only followers, has ultimately failed. These kids, who should be empowered to lead, are being twisted into unquestioning, malignant sheep. It's a tragedy beyond words.

God help us all.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

33. Im not...What did they think the army was about?

Killing and being killed.

Its tough to be too sympathetic to complaints about actually being sent to war.

If anything, this shows the training isnt too good.

[Qanisqineq]

35. Yes, I am sick of it, too

For the reasons that you list and also because it minimizes the price they are willing to pay for their country. While many of us (me included) would argue that this war is not for the defense of our country because Saddam wasn't a risk to the US, that fact should not take away from the fact that these troops gave their life.

[Mari333]

37. When Michael signed up for the reserves it wasnt for Bush's fake war

he wanted some police training so he could be a police officer someday, not so that he could protect and defend corporate oil executives with lucrative contracts in Iraq.
Every soldier that died or was wounded, did it for nothing.
Nothing.
Absolutely nothing.

[blondeatlast]

41. Mari, have you seen this site?

I've just come across it, but it is updated nearly every day with a printable list of the those who've lost their lives.

Sobering, and clearly not fans of the invasion.

http://www.pigstye.net/iraq/

[Qanisqineq]

54. my husband signed up for college money

at age 24. He got OUT of the military after 7 years but, once the Iraq war started being discussed, he was called back up. He didn't want to be in the military anymore after Dubya took office. Just because your contract ends, doesn't always mean the military is done with you.

[Zech Marquis]

39. you're at risk just by waking up

of course there are risks in daily life, but to be killed in this illegal invasion, all in the name of oil and money? NO ONE askes for that :grr::grr::grr:

besides, GIS are suposd to be defending us from evil dictators and invaders. NOT ordered by the BFEE and Halliburton to act like them :(

[BiggJawn]

43. Yes. What a LOAD.

Kids signing up now must be extremely desperate, or they got a Death Wish, but the recuiter does his/her DAMNDEST to "rest those fears"..."look, son, we got the best training, the finest technology, you get body armour, ride in amoured vehicles, and besides, those insurgents are just a bunch of punks with no organization. You'll be one of the best fighting men in the world, son, an ANRMY OF ONE!".

Kids that signed up before this shit started were just there for the college money. I know, that's why my daughter was trying to enlist.

Even the most pragmatic of them never DREAMED that they'd be asked to die in a foreign land for the Vice President's "shadow company"...

[MadHound]

44. Then call me cold and unfeeling,

But I would suggest you not try smacking me upside the head, at least not in the physical sense.

Look, you can say that these folks are kids who didn't know any better, but in light of our history in the past fifty years, that arguement doesn't fly. How much more evidence of America's imperial ambitions do you need than Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, and Gulf War I? If you can't see the pattern of pre-emptive, unilateral, illegal, immoral, imperial military action from those examples, then you are blind and stupid beyond hope.

As far as the economic arguement goes, that's BS too. I know personally the costs of a poor kid not going into the armed forces. I was offered good money, and a fine bonus when I was of the age to join, yet viewing our past actions(and this was in the early '80s), I quickly came to the conclusion that morally, the modern army wasn't for me. And I paid the price for that. I was poor, destitute and homeless for well over a year, and didn't get back on my feet until two years after that. I've had to work my ass off to get my education, and achieve the standard of living I enjoy now. Sure, I could have joined up, and actually at the time, I most likely wouldn't have seen armed combat. My life would have been easier, and my personal finacial situation would have been immensely better. But you know, I frankly didn't want to take the chance of having to participate in an illegal and immoral conflict, so I didn't go. And twenty five years later, I would make the same decision all over again, even knowing what I know now. If you are so casual as to sign your morality away to the whims of the federal government, then you are a fool and a dupe.

That said, I feel and grieve for the troops that are overseas now, fighting and dying for the profit of the few. Yes, I think they were foolish to go, but that doesn't mean I wish to see them come to any harm. I would rather that they come home NOW, rather than continue to participate in this mess. I also realize that there is a need for an armed services. But in this day and age, as in the past fifty years, greedy, heartless politicians will take the noble idea of serving ones country and twist it until you are serving the idea of an imerpial Pax Americana. Hopefully the next generation of young potenial enlistees will wake up to this reality and choose to serve in other ways. Sadly, the last generation failed that, and are paying the ultimate price now.

[Bridget Burke]

48. You're cold & unfeeling.

(You asked.)

If you were so poor & destitute & homeless, where did you gain your knowledge of "the pattern of pre-emptive, unilateral, illegal, immoral, imperial military action"?

Your rural high school? Or the crowded one in the inner city with the high drop-out rate?

[MadHound]

51. Inner city with the high drop out rate

Along with doing my own reading, research and soul searching. Besides, in the late seventies, early eighties, Vietnam was still a shining example of imperial American hubis, much like Gulf War I and Panama is today.

[Bridget Burke]

56. What about those who grew up later than early 80's?

Vietnam is was not the shining example--it's apparently not taught in schools. What if they did not learn about "hubris"? The Greek tragedies are not included in many high school curricula.

But they didn't read enough--so they deserve to die.

[MadHound]

57. Panama, Grenada, Gulf War I

Columbia, Nicarqua, El Salvador, the list of imperial American operations in the eighties is a long one, and they were prominent in the news at the time. This is a major decision you are making with both your life and your soul, putting both at the whim of a capricious politicians. One should put forth more effort on it than one would regarding buying a car.

[kitkatrose]

52. You're assuming that people actually learn this stuff.

Look, you can say that these folks are kids who didn't know any better, but in light of our history in the past fifty years, that arguement doesn't fly. How much more evidence of America's imperial ambitions do you need than Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, and Gulf War I? If you can't see the pattern of pre-emptive, unilateral, illegal, immoral, imperial military action from those examples, then you are blind and stupid beyond hope. <\i>

As a recent graduate of one of the better public school systems, I can testify that I learned none of this stuff in school. The only reason I know some of it is because I actually read the history book (never mind how grossly it misstates the history of the US) and DU. Most of time in class is taken up by Revolutionary War, Civil War, WW I and II. We went fast and barely managed to glance at Vietnam, much less any of the others.

As to the pattern sensing, if you don't learn how to read for patterns, it's really hard to see them, especially if you are force-fed the fact that America is number one and can do no wrong as the world's only superpower, assuming one paid attention in class. Most of the youth I know, or have been in contact with (excluding DUers) have no interest in the truth, or history, or anything that requires actual thought. They are not really stupid, just apathetic and seemingly without empathy or concern for other people. All of which can be fixed, but only if it directly hits them.

[MadHound]

55. Sorry, but it was the same deal back in the day at my school

Force fed pabulum and biased bullshit American History. But the morality of American conflicts of the past fifty years has been in the news and our collective subconcious also. And if you making such an important decision with your life, you really should go out and inform yourself. How hard is a couple of trips down to the library? This is your life after all, and you should put more effort into it than just clapping your hands and chanting U S A. We held the people of Germany responsible, both personally and collectively, for this type of conduct under the Nazi regime. Should we not the measure ourselves with the same yardstick?

[kitkatrose]

58. The American public, and youth especially,

are apathetic for whatever reason. A lot of people don't think about what being in the military entails. I have a friend who's in the Air Force ROTC right now, and I believe is looking at a career military path, but I'm not sure. She did the jr. ROTC and decided to continue with program because of the family type bonds you can build. When I pointed out the fact that she could be going overseas to war, she just looked at me and said, "they can't send me over there, because with my intended career path (at this point it was chemical engineering) I'll get to pick my station." No other amount of discussion could persuade her otherwise. I don't think this it-can't-happen-to-me mindset is all that atypical. It doesn't make it right, but that's how it seems to be.

When the recruiters were knocking on my door and sending me all those letters, I didn't fall for the "oh, just give us two years of service, and we'll pay your college way w/ stipend." Aside from the fact that I don't like the military, I knew that there was the possibility of me having to go to war, which didn't sit well with me. But I don't think alot of teens take the time to see what consequences, negative and positive, their actions entails.

But the morality of American conflicts of the past fifty years has been in the news and our collective subconcious also. And if you making such an important decision with your life, you really should go out and inform yourself. How hard is a couple of trips down to the library? This is your life after all, and you should put more effort into it than just clapping your hands and chanting U S A.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? I know some people you need to drill this into. :)

[Corgigal]

45. The same people who chant this

were the same people who were at the Clear Channel pep rally supporting the troops before this war began. Funny how they can just unclaim/claim a whole bunch of people when it serves their interest.

[Marymarg]

47. Sick of it from the first time I heard it.

It is a cruel argument to imply that these unsuspecting young people deserved to be sent to their slaughter because they were naive to assume that the President of the United States would have sense enough not to engage the nation in such a quagmire. Who could have known the depth of stupidity and arrogance of this administration?

To foist blame on the victims is a hateful tactic to try to excuse the unexcusable. ALL of the blame lies at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

[Qanisqineq]

53. perfect, thank you

My husband spent 10 months in Iraq. To hear people say cold and callous things like the phrase being discussed and other sentiments I have read here lately, it angers me so much that I can't post a calm, coherent, sane response anymore.

What you said was perfect.

[DemLikr]

49. I find it difficult to empathize with military families who support Bush*

and the Iraq war and are only now turning on him because someone in their IMMEDIATE FAMILY has been killed or severely injured.

Well, duh...do they not think other people have families and loved ones? It's as though they can actualize the horror of war and the mendacity of the Bush administration only in direct proportion to their own, personal suffering.

I guess that's rugged American Individualism, no? :eyes:

[Loonman]

59. Freeper armchair warriors with no intention of serving

That's who says that.

[sangh0]

60. It's a sign of the authoritarian left

Like the authoritarian right, the authoritarian left has a firm policy - Whoever disagrees with the authoritarian left must be poprtrayed as immoral.

And like the authoritarian right, the authoritarian left believes in a form of Social Darwinism that does not flinch at their deaths, but instead, views the deaths of "the stupid" as a part of the natural order of things.

[rman]

61. i don't hear that argument a lot here, wrt soldiers...

The mercenaries is another matter, but must DU-ers do seem to be sensitive to the tragedy the ordinary soldiers are suffering.

I'd say even the mercenaries situation is rather tragic, but also to me there's a big difference between a teenager signing up 'for the experience, while figuring out what to do with his life', and an experienced combatant who knowingly and willingly gambles with his life, for the money.

[bloom]

62. It was my impression, also

that reservists/guardsman were sent to the 1st Gulf War.

If people don't want to be in a war, don't sign up.

Don't shoot the messenger. :shrug:


P.S. I don't go around saying, "well you signed up, nah, nah, nah... but you brought it up. And personally, I don't get it. The arguement that they didn't know what they were signing on to...

[TankLV]

63. If you are talking about our soldiers, then I'm with you.

But if you're talking about those mercernaries, then:

Nope! And they got paid handsomely for it all, too!And all that handsome pay could have gone to our soldiers, who need it badly.

Nope. They knew what they were getting into. I'll reserve my "pity" for ones who really deserve and need it, like our soldiers, thank you very much.