Why is there anti-union sentiment here?

[JVS]

Most of the opinions i've seen when the topic has been unions is positive, but there are recurring anti-union sentiments that I've been reading here lately. Stuff like "And his plan is market-based and costs 1/3 of Gephardt's plan (who is beholden to the unions)." Or "You let union member Bubba hear that, and he just might realize that he doesn't have to vote for Shrub again." Actually, the second comment is not so much anti-union as disrespectful and sterotypical of union members. Especially as it was about people in Southern states, which happen to be "right to work states" and a true wingnut would refuse to join the union and pay union dues, since he/she could reap the benefits of the union without contributing at all. Nevertheless, there seems to be an undercurrent on this board of dislike for unions. Why is this? Are some people getting mad because unions are not endorsing their favorite candidates? Are some of us opposed to unions politically or could it even be mere snobbery?

Edited: forgot to post as question.

[JohnKleeb]

1. I havent noticed it but I tell you this labor needs a friend and thats why

I like Kucinich, with Kucinich we could see what we saw with JFK, his labor secretary could actually be a union member, I hope John Sweeney.

[Rhiannon12866]

2. Tell me more about John Sweeney

I don't know much. I just know that I was a little taken aback when they announced his name, tonight. John Sweeney is my representative in Congress here in Upstate New York and he's a conservative Republican! You can understand my reaction, LOL!

[JohnKleeb]

4. lol the good Sweeney

John Sweeney is the head of the AFL-CIO and a loyal democrat cant say the same about Hoffa though. Labor for labor by labor imo, if we want to return to populist roots. Arthur Goldburg, JFK's labor secretary before he got the job was the AFL-CIO's legal counsel.

good Sweeney

bad Sweeney
but ironically I read his father was a union man.

Also the older looking guy is the AFL-CIO head if I confused, the haired mustached guy is your rep.

[Rhiannon12866]

14. Thanks for posting these photos, LOL!

I knew which was which. I saw the AFL-CIO Sweeney just tonight. As for my rep, he has less hair than this now, and has added a few pounds, but I would know him anywhere. I see photos of him far too often. There was a story, recently, in the local paper that stated that he could probably have the job for life, if he wanted it. There is no hope for us in freeper country. Actually, right next to me on my desk, is a recent letter I received from him. I e-mailed him and asked him to vote to repeal the Patriot Act. He sent me a letter telling me the reasons he supports it.:grr:

Thanks again for the photos and the info!:hi:

[JohnKleeb]

19. right back at you

:hi:
You know theres something like that with another union man except his name sake is a good guy. You know who that is? John Lewis. Theres John Lewis the coalminers head and John Lewis the beloved Georgian representive who was on the frontline of the civil rights movement.

the representive and imho should be considered for the senate seat down there or maybe VP.

The hero of my grandparents and their family and another great Iowan with the likes of Tom Harkin and Henry Wallace.

[Rhiannon12866]

21. I believe I have heard of the latter John Lewis

Both of these seem like ``good guys.'' I just wish that my constant e-mails would have some effect on my rep. Actually, we did agree on one recent issue. He sponsored animal protection legislation which is something close to my heart. I congratulated him on this, hoping he would take me more seriously when I urge him to support other issues, but I'm not holding my breath.:shrug:

[tomp]

22. i remember the teamsters in the 60's

and i noticed how 1199 and the teachers union endorsed pataki. unions are just plain on the wrong side sometimes.

[JVS]

72. But the union movement is not monolithic

The teamsters were expelled from the AFL-CIO from 1957 to 1987 for corruption. The AFL and the CIO have had difficulty putting up with one another because the AFL was founded as a league of trade unions and the CIO was founded as a league of industrial unions. Trade unions are sometimes conservative because they represent independent contractors (think Plumber, Carpenter, or a trucker who owns his/her own rig) whereas Industrial unions represent jobs that are only possible within a company (coalminer, steelmaking, manufacturing).

[ShaneGR]

49. Anti-Union sentiment?????

I've got a baseball bat that says there will not be any anti-union sentiment on this board!!!

:-)

[jiacinto]

62. Face it

Kuchinich is not going to be the nominee.

[JohnKleeb]

97. even if he wont be I prefer Kerry

[Rocinante]

3. A lot of folks

just don't know what a union can do for them. I fought for years to get the UAW into a place I used to work. Some of my friends got fired, some got downgraded wages, but everybody finally decided enough bull and voted union. That was during Clinton. I hear Chimp won't recognise union elections now.

[JohnKleeb]

6. UAW? United Auto Workers

Thats a loyal union to the party. I agree though, unions do a lot of good. My great grandfathers were miners and many of their nephews and sons were too and or were steelworkers. My grandfather was a bricklayer though, he hated the mines and the steelmill, so I guess thats why he came here.

[alaine]

84. I posted at the end of this thread but I want to jump

in and say that unions have many of the same problems with racism and sexism that society as a whole has, and maybe this is where some anti-union sentiment may come from. "Class Action" is book written about the stoy of Lois Jenson, a woman who was subjected to 15 years of sexual harassment, and sometimes sexual assault, on a job working for a mining company. The case was settled a few years ago, and one of the things that delayed it and made it so hard to prosecute was the oath union members take upon entry into the union with regards to never betraying their "union brothers". In the end there were about 4 or 5 women in the class action suit, and Jenson won, but the toll on her was great, I believe she is now on disability for PTSD. And recently on C-span a man arguing in favor of slavery reparations joked that the UAW was known in some parts among Blacks as "U Ain't White". He was responding to a (white male) caller who said that his mostly white male union members would try to run Black men off the union jobs, but then spent the rest of the time complaining about "lazy n------ who don't want to work."

[Stephanie]

7. What do you mean "won't recognize union elections"?

Please explain.

Proud member of two unions.

[Rocinante]

11. Union elections

I said Chimp won't recognise 'em from something I heard I think from Rev. Al (or somebody else) on the debate tonight that the NLRB is giving the slow down on certifing elections. Yes I'm paraphrasing, no I don't got no links.

[Aaron]

15. Bush is also blocking the TSA airport screeners from unionizing AFAIK n/t

[JohnKleeb]

18. and he wants to privatize their jobs

[Trajan]

5. I dont see much of that .....

Stick around long enough, and someone may pull out voodoo dolls and a quija board .....

Ya cant account for EVERYONE .. but on the whole: .. we are pro union in DU ....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. There are a handful of yuppie types on DU. Most Du'ers are

very pro-union. I work with labor unions on state labor issues in my business. My father was an organizer who worked with Ceasar Chavez and I was raised picketing and boycotting table grapes.

If you read the archived DU threads you will see STRONG union support during the longshore showdown.

Don't base it on a handful of posts you read. I would say there are more pro-union at DU by a LARGE margin.

[JohnKleeb]

9. I thought your father may have worked with Chavez

because you mentioned he was a farmers union activist. I am pro union too, I work with air traffic controllers, I dont know what Reagan did to tick them off but it was probably planning to privatize their jobs and or not increasing their pay. Thats tough work, ATCing. DU is very pro union I agree. So did you ever meet Mr. Chavez NSMA? He was a great man, its a shame I dont learn about him in school. My union hero is John L Lewis thats just because of my miner blood, I love unions.

[Mairead]

16. Reagan and the ATCs

What happened, John, is that when the controllers struck for better working conditions, Reagan basically sacked them all and replaced them with non-union people -- something that ought to have been totally illegal but, of course, was just ignored under 'Teflon Ronnie' the Ray-gun.

[JohnKleeb]

17. Thanks mairead

Thats what it was, well the ATCs today probably werent around back then, but they love their union NATCA. I met a controller today whos been working there 21 years, just after they striked.

[monkeyboy]

76. And while trashing the ATC's attempt at unionizing...

...Reagan was supporting the formation of Polish labor unions under Lech Walesa (sp?) in order to piss off the Soviets. More Repuke hypocrisy.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

34. yes, it's the Yuppie types

While collar professionals who have never been through a serious depression in their careers. Socially liberal, and right-wing on economic issues.

They seem to willingly subscribe to the anti-union propaganda put out by the "business community" - as far as I'm concerned, being an anti-union Democrat is like being an anti-choice Democrat.

[theHandpuppet]

73. Ditto that!

You took the words right outta my mouth.

[oasis]

10. pro union here (eom)

[unfrigginreal]

12. As a former union-buster...

I'll give a few opinions. Before I do though, let me say that I am a firm supporter of unions. Yeah, quite the contradiction isn't it. I grew up in a management household and was a member of management at an early age in a unionized company. That's in the past though.

In my opinion the unions don't spend enough on PR. Whenever there's a conflict between union and management, we hear from the company's PR Firm and the Union Management. The unions would be wiser to spend less money on their officers and more money on PR. PR Companies will find a way to put the best spin on their clients positions. The unions have to realize that we are living in the age of the lazy press. The only things that get reported are those that are handed to the press on a silver platter, no way are they going to do any legwork to verify a story.

I know I'm not really addressing your question, but I believe that many here on DU are influenced by the same media biases that the rest of the country are.

[lcordero]

13. I'm pro-union but

If I don't have a job, I really don't want to have to join a union in order to get healthcare.

[JVS]

65. Isn't that illegal?

In a course on collective bargaining my team tried to organize a union-only daycare, kind of to provide incentive to join the union. The instructor stepped in and told us that all benefits for which we negotiate must be available to every worker in the bargaining unit. I'd imagine healthcare would have the same rules.

[loyalsister]

20. Not anti-union

although I do find myself frustrated. I truly believe that workers should be able to organize. I do have concerns over the political power that they weild, however. I have seen them going at cross hairs against education and health care in state budget fights.
I see the same thing happening in this primary now. It seems that some would sacrifice a passable health care plan put forth by a candidate that actually opposed the war in favor of a guy with pie in the sky dreams of reversing the inevitibility of globalization.

[NNN0LHI]

23. Does the political power the corporations trouble you at all?

Unions are the only defense against that. Unless you happen to be a member of management somewhere, the political powers of unions should not bother you so much.

Don

[ikojo]

24. AMEN Don!!!

Why is it that people think unions (remember only 13% of the American workforce is in a union) have too much power? I am one who believes there is NOT enough unionization in the US.

Notice that with decreased unionization you have:
-a greater disparity in wealth
-longer work days for less pay
-an assault on overtime pay--while the French and German governments may try to take away some of the perks enjoyed by their workers, the power of the unions and strong class consciousness cause people to bring those countries to a halt when this happens. In the US people figure it's par for the course and as long as they can watch their TV and pay for cable everything is fine.
-more and more people doing without health insurance and thus inadequate access to health care in this the wealthiest country on the planet.

Just for the record I am among the 87% of the American workforce not in a union but I thank my union brothers and sisters as well as their forebears for the following:
-the weekend
-paid vacations
-company provided health insurance (yeah I am one of the fortunate ones who has insurance provided by the employer)
-overtime pay while it still exists

What many don't realize is that many of the above "perks" were provided by corporate America to non union employees as a way to forestall union organizing. They would tell their employees that they did not need a union because all a union would do is take your money. Why unionize, asks corporate America, when "we" already give you vacations and such?

I think unions need to do a much better job educating their members on WHY unions came into existence. They do a woeful job of that. Workers need to know that the battle between owners and employees is millenia old and the best solution and armor in that battle is a union.

[NNN0LHI]

27. Why is it that people think unions have too much power?

I find it is one of two things that cause this misconception. I have seen it caused by either ignorance of the facts because they fell for the right wing (Rush Limbaugh) corporate BS talking points. Or it is someone who has managed to land themselves a salaried position with a title either by kissing enough ass and schmoozing or through nepotism. Seen it happen all of the time where I retired from.

Don

[papau]

25. Pro-union here - unions are needed in daily life

In Germany unions will be changing from more holidays/pay less work time to keep jobs in Germany - and the US Media is calling this the weakening of unions -

But unions are so treasured in the EU - compared to the nutty "right to work" BS sold in the South - that folks in our media have no clue.

My first job was 70 hours a week at less than min wage - or no job, then a company controlled union (which was a huge step up) and then Steelworkers. If I had not gone to college and the professions, unions would have been my life.

I am very pro-union. The idea that management to hurt by running rules changes past employees is nuts.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Unions

Despite some comments I make against unions, I see a strong need for them sometimes. However, many of us out here in the working world oppose compulsory union membership (or union bargaining). If I choose to join a union, that is my business, but if I choose otherwise, I don't want to pay dues to them.

This is one reason why I live in a right to work state.

[zoidberg]

29. Same here

I strongly believe that anybody who wants to join or form a union should be able to do so without fear of losing his job. I'm not in the union where I work because I don't like many of their policies (they fight tooth and nail for tenure promotions instead of merit promotions, which hurts me as one of the few hard workers in my office). I'd like to have a choice as to which labor group I join, and I know of very few occupations outside of law enforcement that offer that option.

[blondeatlast]

28. Proud to be pro-union here, member of AFSCME.

There are a few yupsters on DU, but the overwhelming majority are pro-union, it seems to me.

I live in a RTW state and would like to see it repealed. It is inexcusable that non-members are entitled to the same benefits as union members.

[Robbien]

30. This was a nice steel union endorsement in the WSJ today

In announcing the endorsement, union president Leo Gerard praised Mr. Gephardt's trade record but never once mentioned the dive Mr. Bush took for steel. Far from it, he called the field of Democratic contenders "an embarrassment of riches, any of whom we can support over the reactionary policies of the current Administration."<\i>

[Hubert Flottz]

58. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha FUNNY, Bush's dive for steel was a sham!

Too little Too Late! Another Rove/Rubber Check PR trick!

Bush did just a little over half as much for the steel industry that he would have really needed to do, to really give American Steel the competitive edge they need! The net effect is not much more than if Bush had done nothing at all! It's like everything else Bush does for 99% of Americans all show and little tangible substance!

I've been an AFLCIO member for 30 years and I saw the allout war against unions start under Reagan! Anyone here who believes that the unions are no good is grossly uninformed or duped! Watch the movie Matwan 100 times and get back to me!

[JVS]

67. The steel tariff actually can hurt many US steel companies

My brother used to work at the US Steel Mon-valley works in Pittsburgh. The works consisted of a steel mill in Braddock and a rolling mill in Irving. The rolling mill was capable of rolling more steel than the steel mill could produce so the difference in capacity was imported from Brazil. One could argue that this gives US steel an incentive to reactivate some of the steel mills that it shut down earlier, but they are already gone and would cost a fortune to rebuild. So instead they just suffer higher steel prices.

[flyingfish]

31. I've thought that before

I think it is snobbery. Most higher-educated, white collar workers do not belong to a union
Most DUers probably do not belong to a union, so they view unions as the true Democratic underground.

DUers, wake up and smell the coffee.
Unions have been the bedrock of the Democratic Party.

[sangha]

32. Unions are the real "BASE" of the Democratic Party

Not to discount the value of other groups who may feel that *they* are "the base", but no other interest group better represents the Dem demographic, no other interest group contributes as much to the campaigns (in manpower, not money), and very few groups vote as reliably as labor.

[glasschains]

35. Because it's all about money

They vote to keep their jobs, not for the good of the nation. Pure selfishness.

[Lars39]

36. Imagine that.....not wanting their jobs to go overseas to make the CEO's

even richer. :eyes:

[mac56]

42. Welcome, glasschains -

But that sure sounds like a Limbaugh talking point to me.

[glasschains]

46. Watch it

I have been a proud member of three unions. And a shop steward for two years. What I've forgotten about unions is more than you know.

[mac56]

47. Don't assume, pal.

Proud Union member. Teamster organizer for three years.

Chill out.

[glasschains]

50. Don't assume what "PAL"?

Care to talk straight?

[mac56]

53. "What I've forgotten about unions is more than you know."

That's what I'm asking you not to assume.

[mac56]

75. What a shame -

He's been tombstoned.

[glasschains]

33. Unions are only concerned with themselves

They are only interested in the short term. They actually prevent workers from getting jobs by having closed shops. I may be the best qualified and able to do my job better than anyone else, but if I don't have a union card forget it-NO JOB! That isn't right. I have seen it up real close.

[Lars39]

37. You have benefitted from union action in every job you have ever held.

[mac56]

44. You said it, Lars.

Glasschains, do you appreciate your eight-hour work days, overtime, sick leave, health coverage, holidays, weekends off? Do you really think the company owners give you all these things out of the goodness of their hearts?

Got any big plans for Labor Day, by the way?

[glasschains]

51. I doubt you have the union bone fides

I do. My great-great Uncle formed an international union in the 1870s. My father was a merchant marine during the war and ironworker after. I have been in three unions. I was a shop steward. I bleed union PAL.

You gonna try and lecture me on unions? I know them inside and out and I have seen them cut and run on people too. Try another subject PAL, you are out matched on this one.

You just can't stand someone having a different opinion about it can you?

[NNN0LHI]

59. Because you claim that your great-great Uncle formed an international...

... union in the 1870s, and you have been in some unions yourself, that is supposed to makes you some kind of expert on unions? You can try that on someone else. I don't know who some anonymous poster on a web site is. As far as I know you are nothing but a paid consultant for a company that is hired to discredit unions by corporations. And you keep saying in so many words "trust me" over and over again. That concerns me.

Don

[tuck]

85. anti-union liberals

yeah, it sounds like an oxymoron, but they do extist, and some with good reason.

i am staunchly pro-union, i celebrate may day in my own ways, and i have an immense pride in the power of the working man, coming from a working class background.

the anti-union argument is this -- they drive up wages. i think that is a good thing. but if you own a small company, say a construction company (all construction workers are unionized in this country, i have been told) and you are barely clearing a profit, unions can and often do spell your undoing. large incorporated companies can absorb higher wages, small business often cannot.

i think a better solution to this problem would be to outlaw companies bigger than a certain size (cuz so many are sooo evil), but since i'm no business expert, my opinion doesn't count for much.

[NNN0LHI]

91. Strange that when I hear the anti-union argument that they...

...drive up wages no one ever mentions the salary packages that the executives receive. Some will jump up and down all day about a gabage man who gets 20 dollars an hour even though they would not or could not do the job themselves. But pay a CEO of a company 10 million a year plus the rest of the perks and benefits and no ones says nothing.

You have been told wrong that all construction workers in this country are unionized, so I will not address the rest of your outlaw certain size businesses nonsense.

Don

[glasschains]

45. I have been in three unions

Mailhandler's, I.B.E.W. and A.F.S.C.M.E. I was a shop steward for two years.

You aren't qualified to lecture me on unions.

Unions don't always work for the benefit for all working people. They have one agenda, THEIR workers, to the detriment of ALL other workers.

[mac56]

48. see above

nm

[blondeatlast]

70. Maybe unions don't work for the benefit of all working people, BUT,

all working people benefit from union successes.

40 hour work week
job safety
health insurance
vacation time
sick time

These are standard to virtually every job in the US. The corporations didn't offer them to employees out of the goodness of their hearts.

[Upfront]

83. Mimimum wage

If unions are only for them selves, why do you think they fight for programs like the mimimum wage? Unions are what made the middle class in this country. My small 700 man local, 12934, USWA, has gave as high as 20, 500 doller scholerships to kids going to collage, yearly for at least 25 years. We have had an in-the- plant blood bank for many years. One of our members has served as director of the community blood bank for years. Several of our members serve the community on various boards and in polital office. I could go on and on about what our small local union is doing for others, but you get the idea. I know for a fact that it is not just the Steelworkers who stress community involvement, all international unions do this. Our local is but a small example. I have held every union office in my local and served in some office or other, for 30 plus years. When I say unions are out to better the world not just them selves, you better dam well hear me. I know what I am talking about.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

99. exactly as it should be

Be careful of people who tell you they want what's best for you - or what's "best for the country".

Unions fight for themselves and their families - if we all had unions, we'd all be better off.

Now I'd prefer industrial unions instead of trade unions, but that's another issue entirely :)

[sangha]

38. Imagine that!

Only concerned about themselves?

Unlike those compassionate tobacco farmers and corporations, who only worry about the health and well-being of others. Or those companies that move offshore to avoid paying US taxes, or the chickenhawks who send others to kill and be killed, or the factory farmers who only worry about the effects their polluting will cause, or the energy industry (like Enron) that promotes nuclear energy "for our own good" instead of energy conservation which merely a "personal virtue".

[glasschains]

52. The subject was unions

Not unions in comparison to anything else. Stay on subject.

[sangha]

87. If you took your own advice

and "stayed on subject" you'd be posting on Freerepublic, and not here.

[cmd]

39. It's not easy to be in a union

I am adamently pro-union. As a union member I know that I give up some of my individuality, but I do it for the good of the order. I have been a union officer, have served on many negotiating teams, have walked the picket line and have stood up for parts of the contract that I have not necessarily agreed with. I bargained the year our union became fair share. (For those of you on the outside- fair share means that ALL employees represented pay union dues. You do not have to belong; you do pay your fair share for representation.)

Unless you are willing to stand up for what is right, you will lose health benefits, working hours and safety issues. Unions set the standard for all employees. Belonging to a union is not cheap or easy, but necessary.

I have physical health issues today because of my activism. I was never hurt by my employer; but I gave of myself for my fellow employees. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

[Rich Hunt]

40. who are these "anti-union" people?

:grr:

Don't tell me there's yet ANOTHER prejudice on DU. Sheesh. Get with the program, already. An injury to one is an injury to all.

:grr:

[BrewCrew]

41. good crowd

I think this is usually an extremely pro-union crowd and i'm appreciative of that. Industrial unions, expecially, are losing members by the thousands so we can use all the help we can get

[sangha]

43. Simple - They are "Freepers"

I don't think any DUers are "anti-union" Sure, some have some concerns, but even they acknowledge the good that unions have done. The only ones who are clearly "anti-union" are here on the "short-term plan" :-)

[glasschains]

54. No, I know unions inside and out

Why is union memebership dropping? Because unions are not doing their job in attracting new workers and keeping old ones. Don't shoot me I'm only the messenger.

[glasschains]

No, I know unions inside and out

Why is union memebership dropping? Because unions are not doing their job in attracting new workers and keeping old ones. Don't shoot me I'm only the messenger.

[glasschains]

55. No, I know unions inside and out

Why is union memebership dropping? Because unions are not doing their job in attracting new workers and keeping old ones. Don't shoot me I'm only the messenger.

[sangha]

56. I done a search on you

You also seem to know a number of Dems inside and out, and you hate all of them. You also seem to have some interesting things to say about democrats.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

57. So JVS, have you even read this thread? Please respond.

[Hubert Flottz]

60. Are We Being Freeped?

I didn't know you were union made NSMAM, but I knew I was! I like ya, you are my kind of dem!

[NNN0LHI]

61. Excellent question n/t

[JVS]

64. Oh hi. I went to sleep at 4 and got up a couple hours ago

I'm looking it over now

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

68. Thanks.

I just found it curious that you hadn't responded. When one asks if a condition exists, I simply have an expectation that after their suspicions are put to rest, they will respond.

BTW, I will be gone today, but when I am on next, I will find some of the many pro -union threads in old Du and PM them to you.

[JVS]

77. I know that most DU'ers are pro union

It just bothered me to see some of the sentiments that I quoted. I was worried that some of the support of unions might be insincere or contingent upon support of a personal favorite candidate. If Gephardt continues to get union endorsements, I could see the board taking an ugly turn.

[starroute]

63. Anti-union feeling on the left largely goes back to the 60s

As I recall, the unions were overwhelmingly pro-war, and this created a great divide between them and the anti-war New Left. "Hardhats" were thought of as enemies, who might beat you up just for wearing a peace symbol. It seemed then that the great labor heroes all went back to the 1930's, but that in the 50s the unions had sold out to the establishment and were no longer a force for social change.

I also have to admit that when I was a kid I viewed unions mostly as a nuisance. My father, as a saleman, wasn't unionized, so I was only aware of union activity when it took me an extra hour to get to and from school because of a transit strike, or when I make the top mark in a statewide exam but didn't get to see my picture in the New York Times because there was a newspaper strike.

Even today, when I'm fully aware of the devastating effects of the death of the labor movement, I have real reservations about tactics that cripple the basic infrastructure. Transportation, communication, and education are far too crucial to people's lives to be held hostage.

I would like to see some discussion of what a new labor movement might look like and what tactics it might use to get innocent bystanders on its side instead of pissing them off.

[inthecorneroverhere]

66. infrastructure, huh?

Unions are much too weakened in this country since the Reagan Admin.

The threat to the infrastructure comes from the Repukes that won't spend anything to improve it, and certain extreme 'social-left' Dem's who aren't into spending on infrastructure.

If you think unions clog up transportation here, try going to France or the rest of Europe, where there still are some labor rights.

[NNN0LHI]

69. Why did/do you always view the unions as the nuisance?

No union member in his or her right mind wants to go on strike. I know this from experience. I didn't get paid when I was on strike. I was inconvenienced like hell when I didn't have a pay check coming in to raise a family with. How come you were not upset with the owners NYT or the people running the transit system who where unwilling to bargain in good faith and in a timely way to avoid a strike? The unions assume that the innocent bystanders are smart enough to understand the corporations are at least just as much at fault, and probably more then anyone else when labor negotiations break down forcing a strike.

Don

[alaine]

82. Thanks, it does take an incredible amount of courage

to strike. It takes alot of wisdom to extend oneself to know that a temporary crisis is unavoidable in order to offset what may be a long-term one.

Ecusta Mills in Brevard, NC went through over a year of negotiations between the workers and the owners, lowering pay and benefits, but finally the mill closed. I honest to God think that free trade policies are corporate skanks revenge on unions; how dare any poor person want to be anything other than a wage-slave. Although, having worked alot of factory jobs on off-shifts I can tell you that wage-slave is what you are anyway, albeit a highly paid one, especially when it comes to mandatory overtime.

I have to say it has been refreshing reading through all of these posts, I have on some threads seen what seemed to be anti-union sentiment. I've never been a member of one, but I sure have benefitted greatly from them in regards to pay and benefits. Are there any IT unions out there?

[Rich Hunt]

78. construction workers

The construction workers are among the most conservative out there, and they were the ones who were so jingoistic in the sixties.

I grew up in steel country, and most people I know were against the Vietnam war.

I think there was a gulf between the leadership and the rank and file back then.

[ikojo]

86. I think the hard hat vs hippie thing of the 60s

was all about CLASS. The "hard hats" knew that it was their sons who were being drafted and sent to Viet Nam while the hippies, FOR THE MOST PART, were the sons and daughters of the middle and upper middle class. There were no student deferments for working-class kids. Who else could "drop out" for months or years at a time?

In the 1960s if you were working-class there were not as many opportunities for you to go to college. There weren't a lot of government programs to help working-class kids pay for school that's for sure. About the only option for these kids was the army or a job and at that time in the industrial parts of the US it meant a union factory job (most likely the same place a parent worked).

According to a New York Times article about which class serves in the military that was published earlier this year there were very few people from Harvard who died in Viet Nam. The higher up the income scale one goes the less likely it is that one PERSONALLY knows someone who has served in the military within the last 30 or so years.

[mac56]

90. "Hard hats vs. hippies" =

Just another example of letting the right wing set the agenda and define the debate. Most working people I knew in the 60s weren't in favor of the war. However, they also didn't want to be labeled as "hippies" or "peaceniks" if they spoke out about it.

This quote was from Salon last week:

Besides, says (former professor and Forbes campaign chief Steven) Gold, the right dreads sounding like the left. He points to the Vietnam era, saying, “By 1966 and 1967, supporting the war was a way of opposing the people who opposed the war. We’re seeing something very similar here with a kind of quiet, ‘give him the benefit of the doubt’ attitude, coupled with a real aversion to sounding like the left.” Republicans..think, “We’re against the people who are against Bush,” (says Gold.)

Just like today. People don't necessarily support the conquest of Iraq, but because of the pernicious influence of Limbaugh/Hannity/O'Reilly et.al. they don't want to be seen as supporting Dubya's critics either.

[chadm]

71. Right.

To mock Union members is quite ignorant. Union members are a lot smarter than IT workers, for example, who end up competing with each other and working 12 hour days rather than working together and negotiating.

Union snobbery is just another mental block perpetuated by the establishment through the media.

[OrdinaryTa]

74. Unions Endorse Republicans

Republican George Pataki was able to represent himself as "the working person's governor" because of the support he got from labor unions. Republican Michael Bloomberg became Mayor of New York City because labor unions refused to get out the vote for Mark Green.

Labor unions have a great tradition - they did wonderful things a generation ago. But today, many of them are as conservative as small-time property owners, and for the same reason. They're not looking to shake things up, far from it! That's why they endorse enemies of the working class like George Pataki.

Even strong, pro-Democratic unions are being weakened by the mass defection of unions to conservatism. The Communication Workers rallied yesterday, chanting "What do we want? Job security!" but they will back down just like the transit unions did. Unions are in decline because of the lack of solidarity among labor unions.

If you want to be truly horrified, take a look at this link: http://www.georgepataki.com/cgi-data/d4p_press/files/6.shtml

[sangha]

79. Rubbish

so it's not surprising that you link to an "astro-turf"-type group like "Democrats for Pataki"

What you fail to mention is that Pataki had been ahead in the race from Day 1. Some unions went with the winner, but not until *after* Pataki bribed them with higher pay and benefits. And contrary to the claims being made, Patake did not do well with the union vote and he didn't get much help from the unions phone banks.

[OrdinaryTa]

92. Odd Defense

Pataki bribed them

This is certainly one of the oddest defenses I've heard for betraying the cause of working people. I can't imagine it used in any other context.


Two anti-labor scumbags endorsed by labor unions

See: http://www.labornotes.org/archives/2002/06/c.html

[sangha]

93. You are "editing out the context"

I also pointed out that Pataki gave them wage and benefit increases. In case you weren't already aware of this, getting wage and benefit increases is one of the unions main priorities. I also pointed out that Pataki (like Giuliani) was nearly assured of victory.

But leave it to you to leave that part out.

[OrdinaryTa]

95. Endorsing Giuliani - Indefensible!

Sorry, Sangha. There's no context you can put it in that makes it acceptable. Ferchrissakes, we're talking about Giuliani! Of all people.

It's indefensible, Sangha. Simply ... indefensible.

[sangha]

98. Keep telling yourself that

and who knows!, maybe someday it will be true.

[OrdinaryTa]

100. I'll Tell The World!

I'll shout it from the rooftops, I'll tell the world! Unions should not endorse anti-labor scumbags like Pataki and Giuliani.

So long as they continue to do so, for bribery or other reasons, they will continue to get a tepid reception among sincere Democrats.

[JVS]

101. The unions are not the ones trying to get Democrats' votes

It's the other way around. Give the constituents what they want and they will support you. Denouncing your constituents is a recipe for failure.

[OrdinaryTa]

104. Just Answering Your Question

You wanted to know why some Democrats don't like unions. In answering your question, I said that it's because unions endorse Republicans. Not all of them of course, but it's no longer an anomaly. Sangha replied with the improbable defense that unions yield to bribery. He went on to add that the Republicans in question would have won anyhow. But Sangha was talking about friggin' Giuliani!

Anybody that endorses Giuliani is my political enemy. I don't care what else they do, it's unacceptable. I refuse to overcome my distaste for people who enable our enemies; in fact I'd be disappointed if other DU'ers didn't share this viewpoint.

[JVS]

81. Most unions endorse Democrats

To slam all unions because a few endorse Republicans is incorrect. Also it appears that Pataki is making a genuine attempt to cater to the interests of the union and its constituents. I have no problem with that.

[Nazgul35]

80. Not all unions are uniform in their higher purpose...

one needs only look at the Teamsters....

I come from a union household (Operating Engineers...) and helped organize a Union myself, which was eventually voted out after a year (Newspaper Guild)....but I have decided, after watching the grad students organize at my university (i am a grad student), that unions are not necessarily good for all circumstances....

Unions are good for providing decent wages, safe working environments, health care, etc...but for those who can not afford these things on what they are paid...i'm talking about lower income and lower middle class families that have to have both wage earners working just to be able to hold down the American dream....what chaffs my behind is watching upper middle class and upper class kiddies crying that they need a union when they came here for an education!!

Union's for the wage earner who struggles everyday of his/her working life until they can retire....

Union's for people who work at Union Carbid....people who need to provide health care for their children....

Union's are a collective safety net against the giant corporation interests...but they are not always good for all circumstances....one size does not definately fit all...

solidarity brothers and sisters!!!!

[flyingfish]

88. Dems are missing a golden chance with unions

Many unionized companies are under attack by the management today and Bush is siding with management.
Dems need to pounce on this issue BIG TIME!

Union activity affects everyone because everyone is affected by some union activity everyday-police, fire, roads, bridges, schools, etc....

[mac56]

89. See post #70 above.

As succinctly stated by blondeatlast:

"Maybe unions don't work for the benefit of all working people, BUT all working people benefit from union successes."

You personally may not be involved in or represented by a union. But you personally have benefitted from union efforts.

It's neither fair or accurate to bash the Teamsters. Check out the Teamster Rank and File Education and Legal Defense Fund at www.tdu.org/TRF_Info/trf_info.html. Yes, there are progressive Teamsters.

And whether or not I think grad students need union protection, it's certainly their right to organize.

[OrdinaryTa]

94. Progressive Teamsters

The Teamsters are notorious for being in bed not only with organized crime but also with right wing politicians:

The Teamsters’ Michigan body endorsed right-wing Republican Congressman Peter Hoekstra, who has a near-zero pro-labor voting record. But Hoekstra is working on a deal between the White House and the IBT that would end judicial oversight of the union. If this goes through, Hoekstra confidently predicts that his friend “Jim will support those who have supported getting the federal government out of their union.”

http://www.labornotes.org/archives/2002/06/c.html

[mac56]

96. It's hard to defend that part of Teamster history -

So I won't even try.

It just makes it more important to become informed about TDU (Teamsters For a Democratic Union), and to support their efforts at reform.

www.tdu.org

Try not to tar all Teamsters with the same brush, m'kay? Thanks.

[OrdinaryTa]

102. Hoffa's Biography

I read Jimmy Hoffa's biography, and he was a good guy in his early days. He writes with great compassion for ordinary working people during the Depression, and how the bosses took advantage of the scarcity of jobs. He had to be a tough guy to succeed as a labor organizer in the early days of the Teamsters. A lot of what he said about those days is relevant today.

When unions cut private deals with management, it undermines working class solidarity. Jimmy Hoffa, in his early days, certainly understood that.

[clyrc]

103. I met some wonderful Union people last year

when I was campaigning, and I would have become a fan if I weren't already. My grandpa is a lifelong Union member, and my husband was one while he taught high school.

I am definitely pro-union.