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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:25 PM
Original message
Staying in Iraq
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 12:37 PM by WilliamPitt
These are the numbers out of Iraq: 616 American soldiers killed, 18,000 medical evacuations of wounded American soldiers, 102 non-American coalition soldiers killed, more than 10,000 Iraqi civilians killed, somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 billion spent. There are no numbers available for the number of Iraqi civilians wounded.

These are the numbers out of the Bush White House, first put forward by George W. Bush in his 2003 State of the Union Address and which remain even today on the White House website: 26,000 liters of anthrax in Iraq, 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin in Iraq, 500 tons of sarin and mustard and VX gas in Iraq, 500 tons being 1,000,000 pounds, along with 30,000 munitions to deliver these agents. None of this, not one little bit of it, has been found.

This White House webpage, titled ‘Disarm Saddam Hussein,’ which parrots Bush’s 2003 speech, likewise claims that Iraq is seeking uranium from Niger for use in a nuclear weapons program. It claims, as Bush did in his speech, that Iraq possesses mobile biological weapons labs. It claims, as Bush did in his speech, that Iraq enjoyed an operational relationship with al Qaeda terrorists during the rule of Saddam Hussein. The Niger claims were proven to be an embarrassing lie, the mobile weapons labs were revealed to be weather balloon launching platforms sold to Iraq by the British during the Reagan era, and no proof whatsoever has been put forth to establish a connection between Hussein and al Qaeda.

This is what the numbers say: Every reason put forth to justify the invasion of Iraq has been proven to be either be a wretched exaggeration or an out-and-out fabrication. The number of dead and wounded in the American invasion of Iraq is appalling, and the amount of money we have spent and will continue to spend on this misadventure is staggering. It was White House spokesman Ken Adelman who said on December 6, 2001 in a CNN interview, "I don't agree that you need an enormous number of American troops. Saddam's army is down to one-third than it was before, and I think it would be a cakewalk." It has been anything but.

Because the Bush administration has gone out of their way to block media access to Dover Air Force base where American casualties are brought home from Iraq, because the Bush administration has gone out of their way to block media access to Walter Reed hospital in Washington and Fort Stewart in Georgia where thousands of badly wounded American soldiers have been convalescing after coming home from Iraq, because the Pentagon has changed the term ‘body bag’ to ‘transfer tube,’ because of all this and more, many Americans are not fully aware of how dangerous it is to be an American in Iraq.

Four Americans were dragged from their car, shot, stabbed, dismembered and hung from a bridge in Falluja. The brutality of this attack sent a shockwave across America as the images of bodies burned beyond recognition hanging above cheering crowds found their way onto the pages of American newspapers. The reaction made it painfully clear that the American people had forgotten we were in a war, that war does terrible things to human bodies, and that the Iraqi people are not, in fact, welcoming us with open arms. It was also the first time many Americans found out that non-military contractors, also known as mercenaries, are in Iraq to shore up the security shortfalls.

The last several days in Iraq have seen a spiraling of violence and horror that has taken many Americans by surprise, mostly because those Americans have been relying on the Bush administration for the straight dope. The images of butchered Americans were bad enough, but the sudden explosion of violence from the Shi’ite community in Iraq has unnerved the America people in a way we have not seen since the Tet Offensive. Fighting raged in Baghdad, Najaf, Nasiriyah and Amarah as supporters of Shi’ite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr simultaneously threw themselves at American forces. Many American soldiers have been killed, and scores of Iraqis have also died.

How is this possible? Didn’t Don Rumsfeld and the Bush administration people say the Iraqis would welcome us with open arms as liberators? How did our involvement in Iraq come to look suspiciously like the eternal spiral of bloodletting that takes place between Israel and the Palestinians? Again, the surprise comes because the American people have been relying on the Bush administration for the truth, an act of faith that has been proven time and again to be a very bad idea.

The population of Iraq is divided into three groups: The Shi’ites (60% of the population), the Sunnis (23% of the population), and the Kurds (17% of the population). Saddam Hussein was a Sunni, and his Ba’ath Party was dominated by Sunnis. During his rule, this minority group dominated the country and oppressed the Shi’ites. The Kurds in the north waged their own separate battle for an independent nation, clashing with Turkey as often as they did with Hussein.

When Bush came in promising democracy to Iraq, the Shi’ites rejoiced because they are the majority, and the basic one-person-one-vote principle of democracy pretty much guaranteed that they would get to run the country. Unfortunately for them, the Bush people never actually intended for democracy to take root in Iraq, because they knew the Shi’ites would use democracy to elect a fundamentalist regime with ideological ties to Iran and then throw democracy out the back door. For a time, the Shi’ites were willing to cooperate with the American occupiers because they thought democracy was coming. Shi’ite Ayatollah Sistani counseled patience to his people, but that patience has ended. The Shi’ite people are now listening to Muqtada al-Sadr and killing as many Americans as they can find.

The words ‘total failure’ do not capture the enormity of this American action in Iraq during the last year. Why do we stay? Why would we stay?

This, in the end, is the ultimate failure of George W. Bush and his people. There were no terrorists in Iraq before the invasion, but they are there now. There was no open warfare between the religious factions in Iraq before the invasion, but now blood runs in the streets. Bush and his people ballyhooed the ‘international coalition’ that participated in this invasion, but the truth is we are all alone. We slapped down the United Nations to such a degree that this body, which could help us by replacing our troops with a true international coalition, wants nothing to do with us. That hardly matters, because the Bush administration wants nothing to do with them.

If a magic wand was waved and Bush decided to pull our soldiers out of Iraq, the nation would collapse into a bloodbath that would make Rwanda look like a picnic by comparison. Muqtada al-Sadr and his radical followers would take the nation, and Iraq would become a terrorist stronghold much the way Afghanistan did after we abandoned that nation to its fate in 1989. The entire Middle East would become destabilized. The wobbly House of Saud could fall and place all that oil into the hands of Wahabbi fundamentalists like Osama bin Laden. The chaos could reach all the way to Pakistan, where radical fundamentalists would love to topple that government and come into possession of that nation’s battery of nuclear weapons.

There is no simple solution. An immediate withdrawal will set the stage for an incalculable slaughter in an Iraqi civil war, more terrorism against the United States, half a dozen more wars in the Middle East, the world’s petroleum falling into the hands of al Qaeda, and the potential for Pakistani nukes in the hands of bin Laden. Staying in Iraq, conversely, will bring us more dead and wounded American soldiers, more dead and wounded Iraqi civilians, billions and billions more dollars poured onto the sand.

The only solution involves a long-term strategy. Bush must be defeated in November, and a new administration that does not get its jollies by urinating in the faces of the international community must be elected. That new administration must pull out all the stops to bring a true international coalition into Iraq, so the American soldiers who inspire such demonstrable hatred from the Iraq people can be rotated home.

The money being wasted on this Iraq misadventure must be rerouted to fighting actual terrorists like the ones who bombed the trains in Madrid. International money-laundering loopholes used by terrorists to fund attacks, loopholes which were left open by American Congressmen beholden to corporations like Enron which use those same loopholes to steal from stockholders, must be closed. The list goes on and on.

None of this is guaranteed to work by any stretch of the imagination. The truth is we cannot stay in Iraq, and with our current leadership in America, we will not leave. Even after Bush is defeated in America, our forces will remain in Iraq until the international community decides to come and rescue us. Make no mistake, it will be a rescue.

This will be the legacy of this administration. Bush and his people have hung this heavy millstone around our necks, and we are sinking
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mark414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. 100,000 Civilians Dead?
Where are the numbers from?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Typo, thanks
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Yup.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent piece Will
Do you guy's post links to the topics you are writing about... I'd love one for the white house Disarm Saddam Hussein section..

tru
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Here you go
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. I suggest you read Tariq Ali's Bush in Babylon
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 12:35 PM by corporatewhore
in the meantime read this article he wrote check it out http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1103-07.htm
his book, is a telling story of Iraq and its resistance to Empire over the past century. Given this history, one that Iraqi's are very famliar with, ending the ocupation is likely the only solution to this ongoing problem. Indeed, as anyone who has read about Iraqi resistance to British imperialism, know that Iraq is one place that does not give up and, as with anywhere, responds to desperate times with desperate measures that we are in no position to try and understand
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. Why?
There is no simple solution. An immediate withdrawal will set the stage for an incalculable slaughter in an Iraqi civil war, more terrorism against the United States, half a dozen more wars in the Middle East, the world’s petroleum falling into the hands of al Qaeda, and the potential for Pakistani nukes in the hands of bin Laden.

I don't see withdrawal from Iraq having these consequences. The Iraq bloodbath will happen inevitably whether we stay or go. I think staying would result in increased terrorism. I don't believe that withdrawal would result in al Qaeda controlling the world's petroleum. Right now, today, status quo, there exists the potential for Pakistani nukes to end up in the hands of bin Laden.

I agree we need to transition to a true multinational force ASAP. I also agree with your other points.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Apparently we need more than 610 names in order to have a proper
monument to the Iraq fallen. That is the only logical reason for staying in Iraq. We are no more welcome there than the IDF is in Gaza!
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Because those arabs are a rascally bunch and dont know
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 12:43 PM by corporatewhore
about civilization so it is the white mans burden to civilize and colonize them
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Well Said, Mr. Pitt!
The most important fact to keep clear before the people of our country is that the invasion of Iraq, and the subsequent entanglement there, constitute a criminal distraction from the suppresion of the radical Islamic fundamentalists waging war against the West and the United States. This suppression enjoys, and should enjoy, broad popular support in our country. It is the only possible peg on which to hang a call for rapid withdrawl of U.S. forces from the Iraqi quagmire. Such a withdrawl must be the object of any sound U.S. strategy at this point: there are no good options in this situation, but that is probably the least bad one, at least from the point of view of our own country.

"Oh, you mean the old same place! You can't get there from here...."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
87. If you lived here, you'd be home by now..
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 06:49 PM by steviet_2003
I LOVE the Firesign Theatre references, dear Sir.

As to the substance of your post, I heartily agree. For well over a year since bushco rolled out their new product in late summer of 2002 until relatively recently this administration has worked fervishly to equate "War on TERRA" to "Sadaam/Iraq." To be honest, they did a damn good job with their sound bites and talking points of planting the seed in the vulnerable subconscious minds of americans still stunned and angry at 9-11.

The shades are now just starting to be lifted from the eyes of the average american working hard and seeing to their kids and being ably to catch the nightly news only. These are not stupid people, nor are they uncaring, they just didn't have time in their own personal rat race to question and trusted that their "leader" MUST be trustworthy.

The ONE thing that MUST be hammered home that will wake them from their stupor more than any other (out of a long litany of possibilities) is that the "War on Terror" does NOT equal "War in Iraq" and in fact Iraq is and has been the antithesis. Once people realize this the light bulb will click and they will question EVERYTHING!

Recent events have opened the door a crack, it demands to be kicked down!
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. I disagree


I don't think Iraq would fall apart. Yes there would be some infighting but not a civil war as the bushgang likes to say.

every time they open their mouth out come civil war. I'm not buying it.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. The civil war is happening now.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. No it is not. Shiites and Sunnis have a common foe.
You.

For the love of God, leave.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. And Once We Leave, Sir
They will no longer have a common foe, but instead, their near-by enemies, and a long list of scores to settle, and resources to control.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. "and resources to control"
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 12:45 PM by Minstrel Boy
And God forbid they should do that.

Best to stay and suffer genuine loss, than leave the savages to their hypothetical fate.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. You Might, Sir, Wish To Read No. 8 Above....
"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. ...and No. 15 below
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. In Other Words, Sir
Generally gather some information before engaging the fingers....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Wrong
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 12:45 PM by WilliamPitt
Right now, the Shi'ites hate us because we have not given them the democracy we promised. The Sunnis hate us because we might give the Shi'ites democracy. If we were to pull out right now, the Shi'ites and Sunnis would fall to fighting each other, releasing 30 years of rage. Iran could well side with the Iraqi Shi'ites in that fight. The Kurds, meanwhile, would use the opportunity to declare independence, spurring Turkey to act and make a run for the oil fields near Mosul.

And away we go.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. Does this look like a civil war?
Iraqi Muslim Sunni and Shia marching side-by-side:


Iraqis unite to condemn interim constitution
March 20, 2004

Thousands of Muslim Sunni and Shia gathered after Friday prayers in al-Adhamya and al-Kadhimya districts in Baghdad to demonstrate against the interim Iraqi constitution.

...

Demonstrators chanted "Yes to Iraq, no to sectarianism, no to US occupation", in an attempt to show the commitment to national unity among Iraq's various religions, sects, and ethnicities.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B90497BA-C408-4E65-8ED7-5301CBBF841A.htm
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. "Sunnis hate us because we might give the Shi'ites democracy"
i bet the average sunni hates us because we are stomping on them daily,
and theyd like some water and stuff.
you make it sound like they want world dominion.

we need to leave, give iraqis a chance... let them pull it together.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. It Is Not That Simple, Sir
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 01:09 PM by The Magistrate
One of the reasons the main-line Shia leadership of Ay. al'Sistani remains quiescent is precisely because the U.S. is focusing its violence against Sunni Arabs; he wants them broken, and the Shia have many blood-fueds against them, thus U.S. actions serve their purpose, and U.S. forces are, from their point of view, their cat's-paws in those matters.

"For the Snark WAS A Boojum, you see...."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. i said average..
not leaders w/ conspiracy theories.

its the average guy on the street who actually lives there, he is fighting the coalition.

right now today. wake up.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. With All Due Respect, Sir
You do not seem too aware of the intricacies of that place. Nor should you ever suppose it is the average person who takes up the gun in such a situation; the average person will go very far to avoid violence, and that is true in all times and all places.

"There were only three men who ever understood the whole of that affair: one is dead, another has gone mad, and myself, I have completely forgot the matter."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. please..
the same person is likely to have suffered in ways neither of us can imagine.
example..
throwing yourself under a tank doesnt seem to be "avoiding violence"

from my perspective - its you who are not aware.. go figure huh =)





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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Two People, Sir, Do Not An Average Make....
"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. well whatever - we are fighting the people right now
not your elusive boogymen.
and its sick.. disgusting.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. The Occupation Of Iraq, Sir
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 01:53 PM by The Magistrate
Is a futile and foolish venture. Departure would be better from the point of view of the United States, on the "don't throw good money after bad" principle, but be under no illusions that U.S departure will produce an end to violence and killing in the place: it will not, it will merely alter the directions in which the violence is aimed, and change the names of the people who will be killed....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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hel Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
78. Don't forget Arabs, Shiite and Sunni
ganging up against Kurds, even when they manage to come to terms with each other. Kurds sided with the occupation, they got the best deal out of the war, they practically run the so called government. They got the oil wells, they got the least damaged territory. Add the fact that Arabs never liked Kurds at all, historically, and won't have them ruling their land.

And Turkey, or let's just say Turkish Army (which makes these kind of decisions here) won't allow an independent Kurdish state in Northern Iraq, no matter what. US/UN must find a solution to that little problem as well, otherwise Northern Iraq and Southeastern Turkey will never see peace.



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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Last I checked the Sunnis, Shias, and Kurds were fighting US
not each other.

Kerry better change his tune and forego his plans of doing a better job as occupier than Bush has in Iraq. The Iraqi people don't want us there, and we shouldn't be doing Israel's dirty work for them in the region.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. See post 15
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Let the Iraqis sort it out without our butting in
We raped Iraq and now we saying that we should stay with our victim to help her "get over it"!
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
73. How compasionate
IMO, I don't think we should rape Iraqis and then let the extremists take sloppy seconds.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. The Iraqis want us out
Who are we to tell them otherwise?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. Really?
Are the Kurds really taht anxious to be dominated by the Shia?

How about those Sunnis? They sure don't look like they'd like to see the Shia dominating Iraq.

Or do you mean that the majority of Iraqies (in a country where 60% (a majority) of the population is Shiite) want us to leave so they can oppress the non-Shia Iraqis? And you want to help them slaughter the Kurds and Shia?

Just like Poppy Bush*, you wouldn't hesitate to betray the Kurds and the Shiites.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. The Kurds want their own state. Neither Turkey nor the US will allow this.
From what I have seen, Iraqis are united. It is only the Americans that speak of civil war and unrest. The only war I see is the one directed at the occupation forces.

Perhaps you should stop reading the Kerry press releases or the repugnant American press and start reading what the foreign press is saying:

The US-led occupation authorities in Iraq closed down a newspaper acting as his mouthpiece last Sunday, accusing al-Hawza of inciting violence. His supporters have mounted several major protests since.

Saturday's marchers also complained about the arrest of a senior al-Sadr aide who they said had been detained by US forces.

"This is a message to the council of oppression and the US who tried to tell the people we have no influence," Said Murtada Kinani, a construction worker who joined the parade, said.

"Saddam could not stop us, do they think they can stop us?"

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/AE9B59FF-A942-437E-ABC4-662D1B09F167.htm

Analysis: Growing Shia discontent

By Paul Wood
BBC correspondent


There has been Shia unrest in both Baghdad and the southern city of Basra.

More than 40 Shias and a number of coalition soldiers have been killed in the violence over the past 24 hours.

It was not supposed to be like this.

The Shia were, above all, the people the US and Britain came to Iraq to liberate.

They perhaps had claim to have suffered most under Saddam Hussein - killed in their thousands during the failed uprising of 1991, and stopped on pain of death from practising their most sacred rituals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3602151.stm
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #82
91. From what you've seen?
When did you get back from Iraq?

The Kurds want their own state. Neither Turkey nor the US will allow this

And if we leave, I suppose, Turkey, the Sunnies and Shiites will just let them have it?

The only war I see is the one directed at the occupation forces.

So when various clergymen get assasinated in Iraq, it's always because they're working with the US? I did not know that Iraq's various factions had such brotherly relations.

"Saddam could not stop us, do they think they can stop us?"

You're quoting a man who thinks it was Iraqis that took down Saddam's govt? Seriously?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. The Sunnies?
I have been overseas, in an out of uniform, and I have been to Cuba (and it wasn't Guantanamo). Et tu?

Just because the Americans borrow a page from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, it does not mean that our "superiority" will achieve different results.

The only people talking about an Iraqi "civil war" are the same people that believed the stuff about Iraqi WMDs.

Haven't you taken notice that today the Sunnis expressed solidarity with the Shias in resisting the occupation?

Kerry's press releases and position on the issues are a poor substitute for information.

BTW, where is Kerry? What did he say about what has been going on in Iraq (besides his repeating the line about the poor mercenaries)?
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sangha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. You were overseas?
And you think that gives you some authority on Iraq?

Just because the Americans borrow a page from Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, it does not mean that our "superiority" will achieve different results.

Changing the subject? We were talking about what happens after we pull out, as you suggest.

The only people talking about an Iraqi "civil war" are the same people that believed the stuff about Iraqi WMDs.

And I'm sure you polled each and every one of them. You'd never just make that up based on your own biases.

Haven't you taken notice that today the Sunnis expressed solidarity with the Shias in resisting the occupation?

Yes, they're willing to let each other kill Americans. How brotherly! I'm sure they'll make nice to each other as soon as we leave. And the various Kurdish factions will forget about the wars they waged against each other. The secular Iraqis won't mind when the religious zealots try to make them wear burkas, and the religious zealots won't mind the secularists sell liquor in stores.

Kerry's press releases and position on the issues are a poor substitute for information.

BTW, where is Kerry? What did he say about what has been going on in Iraq (besides his repeating the line about the poor mercenaries)?


Changing the subject again? Why do you avoid talking about what happens to the Iraqis after we pull out, or don't you care about the Iraqis?
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. but its our job and duty to do israels dirty work
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Pure Swill, Ma'am
Our fundamentalist ideologues, and "free-matketeer" resource pirates, and Mayberry Machiavelli political operatives, are all perfectly capable of constructing their own cock-ups for their own corrupt purposes without aid from little Israel....

"All governments tend to expand to the practical limits of their ability to do so, and always have done so."

"There is but one sun in the sky: there can be but one ruler of all under Heaven."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. There is nothing "little" about Israel
Biggest WMDs stockpile in the Middle East. Biggest collection of war criminals in the Middle East. Biggest land grab in the Middle East.

More importantly, most powerful lobby in America!
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Square Area Comes To Mind, My Hoosier Friend....
As well as total population. However, all that is beside the point: Ms. Whore above was atempting to claim the invasion of Iraq, and the occupation of the place, was dictated by Israel to the United States. Israel lacks the power to do that, and the criminals of the '00 Coup are certainly capable of hatching their own mischief on their own account. Leftists in particular ought not provide them such alibis, but hammer them fopr the thieving, murderous reptiles they are in their own right.

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Well, Israel did not dictate
but it certainly lobbied for the war.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. That Is True Enough, My Friend
And there were many other factors, several far more influential, that produced the active policy....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
49. yep and we footed the bill for that financially and politically
have a nice day and enjoy your western colonization :D
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. just because you say they are in a civil war doesn't make it so
nt
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
85. I'm tending to see things that way too. Remember what the estimates were..
...before the Invasion? My gawd the potential death estimates were staggering and yet relatively (Please. One was too many, I'm just talking about the relative numbers) few have perished, why is that?

Who knows? But I think it's a common belief that a civil battle will take place with or without America.

But what sort of civil strife? A quick partition into Sunni, Shia and Kurdish areas?

Why would that be such a bad thing? Wasn't Iraq carved out by English surveyors anyway? Who says it should be one nation?

I don't really buy the Holocaust II scenario getting played out ad nauseum both in the National Media and DU...
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wasichu Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
25. are you going to Enlist for the occupationm?
or are you just another chickenhawk lite?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. People that want us to stay in Iraq should be drafted
As George McGovern said when Nixon ordered the invasion of Cambodia, and I am paraphrasing, "I am tired of seeing all of these old men ordering young men to die for them."
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. So what is your solution
'Get out of Iraq' is not a sufficient answer, given the situation. Details, please.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Get out of Iraq is the perfect, and only solution.
We should do the same thing Spain is going to do. Put Chalabi in place, and wave goodbye to that piece of shit as we leave Iraq en masse. If Chalabi gets killed by his own people, that's too bad! I actually think that Chalabi is too much of a coward to stay behind. He will flee to exile.

Remember when the Russians left Afghanistan? Let's borrow their withdrawal plan!
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. When the Russians left Afghanistan
so did we, leaving the warlords in charge. The resulting civil war killed thousands more, established the Taliban, and set the stage for the 9/11 attacks.

Thanks for proving my point.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
68. bin Laden was created by us long before the Russians left
Haven't we caused enough misery to Iraq already? Wasn't 10 years of sanctions enough?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. We left Afghanistan and a civil war broke out
Years of death and destruction is obviously what you want for the Iraqi people.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. And, "given the situation," staying in Iraq is an answer?
If so, there will be a civil war in the United States before there's one in Iraq.

My thought, for what it's worth:

The US out in 90 days, and the UN in, with elections no later than the end of summer. I'm convinced the UN would fulfill its duty, and that member nations would rush to help, if occupation authority were removed from the United States. The stumbling block for the UN has been the United States, not Iraq.

Iraq must stop being treated as war booty. US designs to "keep the peace" are a sham, because it is enjoying the spoils of conquest.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Three words - "Staying in Iraq" - is not the answer
I provided several details beyond that. RIF.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #43
88. Under what administration, under what conditions?
I assume you mean after a regime change here. Do you think that the UN could mobilize that quickly? It took the US at least 6 to 8 months to gear up for invasion, get the logistics and supplies straight. Why would the UN even trust "us" after the way "we" have treated them in the past 3 years (I use the words "we" and "us" from an international and muslim POV.) AND, traditionally who has provided the majority of UN forces? Under whose command would these mainly american UN forces be?

It IS NOW a quagmire. It is not simple and will not be simple. In exchange for UN in, there will be demands, such as we still foot the bill as well as cede control. I have no problem with that, "we" fucked up and should pay for what "we" broke. But "we" broke it and have to maintain the burden of responsibility for fixing it.

Pulling out would leave a void that would be filled by anarchy for a while and by fundamentalists after a hateful bloodbath. This is not acceptable. There needs to be an orderly transition and given the political and religious reality in the region it will not be easy. Certainly not as easy as UN in, US out.
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brokensymmetry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
95. With all due respect -
you say 'Get out of Iraq' is not a sufficient answer, given the situation.

Purely from the perspective of the U.S., I would contend that it is. Yes, there will be a great many deaths. Yes, there will be instability. And yes, the terrorists will wax stronger. I suspect these will all happen even if we do stay. And we'll be stronger by a considerable number of lives and a great quantity of treasure.

Despite this minor quibble, my compliments on a powerful and well written post. It's always a pleasure to read your thoughts.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Don't you think...?
The people that support this moron in the White House should be the first ones in line? Why should people that did not support this terrible decision in the first be asked to enlist for the occupation?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
36. Jenna and Barbara Bush should be first in line to be drafted
followed by the children of all those that voted for IWR and still remain unrepentant, and they should be followed by those that support the occupation.
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. occupationm
WARNING WILL ROBINSON, WARNING....

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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #31
97. LOL (nt).
:yourock:
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waldenx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
37. I KNEW you were never anti-war.
Your post confirms it.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Oh Good Grief...
you can be anti-war (and anti-this particular war) and still think it's a bad idea for us to just pull out of Iraq and leave the people there to clean up the mess that WE MADE.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. Fully, completely, totally anti-war?
You're right. I'm not. I was, and am, fully against this Iraq catastrophe. Simple responses to insanely complex situations ("Anti-War!" or "Get out NOW!") do nothing to deal with this wretched situation. Bush put us in this fucking blender, and all the pat answers and sloganeering in the world won't fix it.

What is your solution? Details please. No slogans.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
40. One little nitpick
"That new administration must pull out all the stops to bring a true international coalition into Iraq, so the American soldiers who inspire such demonstrable hatred from the Iraq people can be rotated home."

Shouldn't that be "Iraqi people"? That's my only nit on this one.

I'm not jumping into the fray about whether you're right or not...gotta sit and think about it a whole lot more first.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
44. "The Shi’ite people are now listening to Muqtada al-Sadr "
Have you heard this somewhere, or is this your opinion?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. I'm watching the news
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. The news in America lies, as they are lying about Al-Sadr's murder charges
The US charges of murder against Al-Sadr are FALSE!

Many of us still remember the incident, which was posted and discussed in DU.

Al-Khoei was not the target, but the other cleric who had been a Saddam supporter.

There was no murder here. The US is lying as usual.

Shia leader murdered in Najaf
Thursday, 10 April, 2003

A senior Shia cleric working with coalition forces has been killed inside a mosque in the Iraqi holy city of Najaf.
Abdul Majid al-Khoei returned to Iraq from exile in London only last week.

He was one of two Muslim leaders hacked to death outside the Ali Mosque, one of the holiest sites for Shia Muslims.

The other was cleric Haider Kelidar, whom according to Arabic satellite channel al-Jazeera, had worked for Saddam Hussein's ministry of religious affairs.

<snip>

He (Khoei) had noticed Mr Kelidar coming under attack by a crowd and gone to help him - but was himself knifed. Both men died.

Other reports said crowds shouted abuse at the clerics, causing Mr Khoei to produce a gun and fire shots.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2936887.stm
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. OK, granted, but
there is a massive insurrection happening in Iraq. Right?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. Insurrection like the one in 1776 America, or 1920 Iraq
We are the bad guys in Iraq now!

Robert Fisk is in Iraq and knows the country and the region better than most Westeners. Here is Fisk's take on June 30:

Dust off the flak jacket. Lay low. And stay off the streets...

At the end of his latest tour, our correspondent reflects on a horrific week in the nation and looks ahead to 30 June

By Robert Fisk


For what is going to happen on 30 June is not a "handover" of power. We are going to see a mythical "sovereignty" handed to American-paid and sponsored Iraqis who will do Washington's bidding. And favoured for the future US "ambassador" in Iraq is none other than Paul Wolfowitz, the neo-conservative pro-Israeli academic who is a member of the US administration and one of the "hawks" who encouraged the whole disastrous US invasion of Iraq.

So what will the "resistance" do? Any guerrilla force will attempt to overthrow this new administration, to attack its police stations and the "new" Iraqi army. It's not difficult to see what the US has in mind. Already, Iraqi troops man checkpoints with Americans. They share guard duty on Bremer's palace. They wear shades and in many cases - in Sammara, for example - they mount their own checkpoints wearing face masks and hoods. Black hoods are going to be the face of the new "sovereign" Iraq, the new and "independent" Iraq.

Anything, in other words, to get American troops out of the firing line, into desert barracks - where they can be attacked with mortars but will be invulnerable to serious assault - by insurgents, "terrorists" as they will increasingly come to be called. After all, only "terrorists" could attack the army of the new and liberated Iraq.

Therein, to use an old cliché, lies the rub. Will Iraqis respect this new army, this new police force, this new "sovereignty"? I doubt it. They would like an end to the lawlessness, the killings and the kidnaps which have characterised the American occupation for the past year. But they want to live in a country outside US control - and this they will not have.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6001.htm
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #44
53. Certainly A Proportion Of Them Are, Mr. K
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 01:23 PM by The Magistrate
This action by Mr. Sadr is aimed as much at Ay. Al'Sistani as it is against the U.S. occupation. The young man hopes people will be moved to his banner by anger and pride evoked by his open challenge to the occupation, and thus increase his following among the Shias, which is at this time still very much smaller than the old scholar enjoys. Mr. Sadr means to supplant Ay. Sistani as the leader of Shia Iraq, and attacking U.S. and other occupying forces is his means of bidding for support in the Shia faction fight that has been going on for a long time.

"You can't tell the players without a scorecard."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
66. I think you're correct
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 02:46 PM by paulk
I think Sadr had his hand forced by the closure of his newspaper. This is not a general uprising yet - the real play will come when Sistani makes his move. It could go either way.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Sistani was behind the arrest order. He can use the coalition to crush his rival. If Sadr is martyred, he becomes Sistani's "Che". A win - win situation.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
54. I agree we should take up the White Mans Burden
Ah the glorious cause of coloni-i mean civilization
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. White people know what is best for people of color
particularly those that live in the former European colonies in Africa and Asia.:crazy:

We serve our God, who is also white and very much male! :eyes:
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. just like they know whats best for iraqis because they know nothing
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 01:52 PM by corporatewhore
of civilization (although they have one of the oldest)
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. If they knew their Bibles, they would know that Abraham came from Ur
which is in Southern Iraq. Iraq has had a civilization for 5,000 years, long before the Europeans learned to bathe.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #63
77. So you care about "what's best for Iraqis"???
So what are YOU going to do about it besides asking OTHERS to get out of Iraq?
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #61
81. We serve our God
who is also white and very much male! :eyes:

>> and wears cowboy boots.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #54
83. Posted in the wrong place by mistake... n/t
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 05:08 PM by Junkdrawer
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
55. Why would the U.N. save our bacon?
There seems to be some feeling that all we have to do is ask and the United Nations will send people, material and funds to Iraq in vast quantities and everything will be OK.

I don't think so.

One, the U.N. is unlikely to accept this particular hot potatoe. There's plenty of evidence in the last 20 years to support that, not the least of which is that the U.N. simply can't afford such a campaign.

Two, even if the U.N. did step up why is there any belief that they would be any more successful than the unilateral U.S. effort is? It's not like the U.N. is viewed with warmth and trust by the Arab world.

Three, there's bound to be a fair amount of hostility from the U.N. over the way the invasion came about. While I can believe that there are some folks in the U.N. who are great hearted enough to overlook that and try to do what's right, it is NOT going to help.


The 'withdraw immeidately and let the U.N. handle it' answer is a non-starter. We might be able to woo the U.N. with money and influence until they reluctantly agree to step in. If that happened it seems likely that the U.N. would ask us to be a major contributor. I suspect that's not going to work since the U.N. will be seen as a surrogate for the U.S. in that case.

I fear that this is one of those situations where there are no good answers, just the one we pick. I don't like the one we've got now, but none of the alternatives I could suggest are good, either, just not so bad.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. You Are Quite Right, Mr. Ray
There is no reason whatever to suppose the United Natuions will rescue the United States from the consequences of the lunatic policies executed by the criminals of the '00 Coup.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"
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Iceburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. I agree and would add that --
that "the US would have to submit to the International Criminal Court/Rule of Law". If fact I would argue that it would be the first of several non-negotiable terms of transfer.
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
90. Nice post RichardRay
You are all over it. bunnypants screwed the pooch and we and the iraqis will all have to pay. There is NO good answer, just an attempt to discern the best of a bad lot.

IMHO, that entails going hat in hand to the UN and the world, apologiging for the sins of our forebears (assuming a local regime change), offering to ante up in a fair way and it will probably also take many other countries and allies calling in all their old chits.

The only way is to have a worldwide effort to reconstruct Iraq for the benefit of the Iraqis.

I feel, and fear that where the monetary and natural resource stakes are so high, this will be next to impossible in this corporate, greedy world.
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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
69. TYPO:
fourth paragraph: "Iraq has been proven to be either be a wretched" One too many "be"s.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
70. I know you're not old enough to have been through Vietnam
Go read more about it.

You are taking Nixon's 1972 position about Vietnam.

Oh, and YES, this IS just fucking like Vietnam. (except its worse since no Vietnamese ever came to the U.S. to retaliate, and the muslim's allies no doubt will)

Some president, some day will have to fall on his sword and admit defeat. Unfortunately, it will be after tens of thousands of Americans have been killed and untold numbers of Iraqis.

Kerry will escalate, believe it. His ego won't let him "lose" even as he forgets his experiences as a young man.

This is a classic quagmire...........there is no good solution. The vague "get the world community involved" crap is going to be a no starter because the other countries know we stirred up a hornets nest for no good reason and they aren't about to help us go "fix" something outsiders can't fix, particularly when they told us not to do it in the first place.

Nice writing. Very bad policy.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Kerry shares one characteristic with Nixon
Edited on Mon Apr-05-04 03:15 PM by IndianaGreen
He hates to admit he was wrong!

Kerry will escalate, believe it. His ego won't let him "lose" even as he forgets his experiences as a young man.

Sadly true!
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #70
96. I have to thank you for making me
exhale while reading through this thread. Seriously, I had no idea I was holding my breath until I read your post and felt my chest relax.

I'm afraid I stand by my candidate's position on the issue of Iraq. Yes, people will die, and yes the United States will shoulder the majority of the blame for it. Regardless, the country is not ours to (re)build to OUR wishes. It benefits 'us' to have a certain type of government in Iraq. Just how arrogant and self-absorbed can a single country become?

I have deep difficulty believing those who insist we need to remain are thinking of the Iraqi people. We cannot undo the damage George W. Bush has done in any other way but to leave and allow the Iraqis to construct the nation (or nationS) they choose among themselves. "More will die"....and more won't die while we remain? We have no real idea what will happen among the Iraqi people if we leave, only what we suspect MIGHT happen. It isn't our nation to rule, construct, deconstruct or negotiate over. We've done that for ourselves and now some would have us feed the Iraqis indefinitely while our own citizens starve, provide the Iraqis with health-care and education while our own citizens go without.

Guilt, maybe? For what?? WE tried to stop them...well with one rather notable exception...WE told them not to do this. WE begged and pleaded and protested in the streets telling them NOT TO DO THIS. (with one notable absent Senator.) I have no guilt over the actions og George W. Bush and his cronies. I told them not to do this. I wrote letters, I marched against it, I screamed and railed and cried over it, and more than that I didn't vote for the filth responsible.

You want to sacrifice someone for the Iraqi people? Send them Goerge W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the rest of their enablers and assistants in this bloodshed, including the Halliburton execs. You tell them to stabilize a nation that has never BEEN stable and leave my husband, my children, my country and me out of it.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
71. I'm just so happy
bush is saving us all from terrorism and has terrorism on the run. He has saved us from those WMD's and is making America strong (not like those traitors, the democrats who are weak on foreign policy and helping the terrorists).;-)
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
74. Why can't people have their own lands?
Just as the Palestinians are reasonably due their property rights in their homeland, what is wrong with allowing the three factions in Ira* to have their own independence. I know Turkey has a problem with the Kurds. It might not be a perfect solution, and there's much I don't know about it. It just seems like an option that should be considered.
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hel Donating Member (266 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. Turkey has 12+ million Kurdish population
And Kurds consider a large part of Southeastern Turkey their own land, Kurdistan. Turkey fears that if Kurds build their own independent state in Northern Iraq, they just won't stop there. With all the oil and the money, they will want to "liberate" Turkish lands, where their fellow Kurds are living, and in poor conditions. Southeastern Turkey doesn't have oil, but what it has is even more precious in Middle East: water. Turkey built dams on all the rivers flowing into Middle East in Southeastern Turkey, controlling the water. Just the threat of cutting the water, selling the water to Israel and not to Arabs, is enough to make most Middle Eastern countries fear Turkey.

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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-06-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #80
99. thanks
for that additional information.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
84. Has anyone asked "How did Islamic Fundamentalism...
come to such prominence in the Near East? What fuels it?" Perhaps the answer to THAT question will help us untie the Gordian Knot.


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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
86. there's no good end to this.
Hell, there isn't even a "least bad" end. I'd like to hear from those on DU who supported the invasion itself - and who still did openly but a few months ago - about how they think things are going now, and whether or not the Iraqis are better off than they were.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
89. Many more than 10,000.
10,000 civilians were killed directly by U.S. guns or bombs, but tens of thousands more died due to the hardships that the war incurred. So the actual death toll is tens of thousands.

Iraqi military deaths (which also number in the tens of thousands) should also be considered. After all, they were mostly conscripts -- and those that weren't still weren't necessarily enthusiastic supporters of the regime. They just needed a job to make end's meet -- like American soldiers.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
93. LINK TO FINAL VERSION
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-05-04 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
98. What is to be done?
The only real solution is to move quickly to a one-man, one-vote election. This will give the Shi'ites power.

The U.S. cannot withdraw. It should create canton's to contain the Sunnis, and a line to protect the Kurds, and let the Shi'ites know in no uncertain terms that 1) there will be no massive bloodletting and 2) hands off the Kurds and 3) no international adventurism in the name of Islam or the Palestinians.

In more detail, we should have a strong military position in a line west from Kuwait to protect our "good Friends" the Saudis, across the north and down to the Suni Triangle to protect the Kurds and to both contain the Sunnis and protect the general Sunni population from predations by the Shi'a.

Things will be pretty much where we found them, except for the hundreds of American dead, the thousands of wounded and the $200 or $300 billion down the rat hole.

The cost of continuing this for the next couple of decades will be extracted by an siezing the oil assets of Iraq until such time as we are paid in full

We will have to double the size of our standing Army. To do this, there will be an end most social programs of any consequence, a reinstatement of the draft, and of enlistment as an alternative to jail.

What passes for social services will be delivered exclusively by the Church, and access to any sort of assitance will require a profession of Judeo-Christianity.

This will all be the fault of people like us, so we will have to enact the new Sedition and Treasonous Speech Act, to prevent any recurrance.

I'd say things are going right according to plan.
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