"But no one can argue that Iraq is not better off today without Saddam"...

[kentuck]

You can hear this rationalization just about every time you turn on cable television. We could argue that perhaps France would be better off if we invaded their country and overthrew their leader. It's a terribly weak argument. But why shouldn't Iraq be better off? We have spent $150 billion over there in a year - after 12 years of sanctions. We would hope they would be better off!

But it is said in such a way as to suggest that no matter if we were lied to and no matter how many people have died, the people are still better off without Saddam. That has got to be the weakest rationale for war that I have ever heard. We are a nation of fools to believe such crapola.

[xray s]

1. Iraq would be better off if Reagan/Bush hadn't been his buddy in the 80's

Killing hundreds of Americans and thousands of Iraqis to squash the blowback of our foreign policy in the 80's is one hell of a thing to be proud of.

[struggle4progress]

7. Reagan/Bush policy left Afghanistan f**ked up good, too.

eom

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

14. Nope...Reagan/Bush policy CREATED Al-Qaeda

you should be more specific.
:)

[struggle4progress]

17. Per se?

I think the 1980-era policy of supporting the "mujahideen" essentially fused together a number of unsavory characters, including OBL. The post-game: drop Afghanistan cold.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

21. Agreed.

Hell, I wouldn't put it past Reagan/Bush (or at least Bush) to keep AQ on the "payroll"
But I agree with what you said. Their actions created AQ and OBL.

[caledesi]

2. Show me the money! (pictures)

If everything in Iraq is so wonderful, why doesn't the news show all the "happy" Iraqis?

Hmmm..

Bush* says that Iraq is doing really well, with schools and markets open. Then, on the other hand, "Iraq is dangerous place."

:wtf:

How are kids supposed to go to school when there is violence all over the place.

Liar!

[xray s]

3. Today's picture

30 Iraqi newspeople walk out on Colin Powell.

Look like happy campers to me.

[caledesi]

37. ROTFLMAO, xs! Good one!

[DrWeird]

4. I like the polls that show Iraqis like us there.

"57% of Iraqis are glad the Americans are there," they say.

What they don't say is that when Saddam was in power he had 99.9% approval ratings.

[struggle4progress]

9. I liked the Onion headline

"Dead Iraqis Cheer Bush"

or something like that

[Columbia]

12. Yup

Saddam killed or imprisoned the 0.1% who dared to dissent.

[DrWeird]

26. Yeah.

And american troops fire at protestors.

[eaprez]

5. Its the .....

..."End Justifies the Means" argument. That's the way they view everything they do. Unfortunately for the rest of us, its not very democratic.

[many a good man]

6. 10,000 ghosts disagree

and the tens of thousands of grieving family members in Iraq-- and thousands more grieving here. And all to overthrow a weak, isolated, aging dictator in the last stages of terminal cancer.

The argument I've heard them make most often is that the WORLD is better off without Saddam. I think that's an even harder argument to make. Iraq was contained, disarmed, and without terrorists. Its now probably the most dangerous place on earth. Extremists have been given greater incentive to seek revenge for the deaths of 10000 innocent Muslims.

[caledesi]

39. Very good point, TAP

Iraq was contained, disarmed, and without terrorists. Its now probably the most dangerous place on earth

[bearfartinthewoods]

40. do you trust amnesty international?

according to them and the UN, 1000 women and children a week, died because of saddamns manipulation of the food for oil program in the years preceding the war.

one year ago, 52 weeks ago, that manipulation ceased.

do the math....52 lives saved minus your 10000 ghosts leaves 42.000 women and children alive who wouldn't have been if we left saddam in power.

and next year, at this time it will be 92.000 lives and the year after that 142,000 lives saved.

[Lars39]

8. Hear it on cable? I can point ya to a thread here, right now!

[Ksec]

10. Could use that argument and say the US would be better off without Bush.

And it would be accurate.

[Gman]

11. The world would be a better place without Bush

is my pat answer to this to pukes.

[starroute]

13. Have you read "Baghdad Burning" lately?

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

"We also heard that one of the assistant deans of the college of engineering in Baghdad University was assassinated recently. It's terrible news and the subject has been on my mind a lot lately. I don't know why no one focuses on this topic in the news. It's like Iraq is suffering from intellectual hemorrhaging. Professors and scientists are being assassinated right and left- decent intelligent people who are necessary for the future of Iraq. Other scientists are being detained by the Americans and questioned about- of all things- Al-Qaeda.

<snip>

"And it doesn't stop with the scientists. Doctors are also being assassinated by some mysterious group. It started during the summer and has been continuing since then. Iraq has some of the finest doctors in the region. Since June, we've heard of at least 15 who were killed in cold blood. The stories are similar- a car pulls up to the clinic or office, a group of men in black step down and the doctor is gunned down- sometimes in front of the patients and sometimes all alone, after hours.

<snip>

"Scientists, professors and doctors who aren't detained or assassinated all seem to be looking for a way out. It seems like everyone you talk to is keeping their eyes open for a job opportunity outside of the country. It depresses me. When I hear someone talking about how they intend to leave to Dubai or Lebanon or London, I want to beg them to stay… a part of me wants to scream, 'But we need you here! You belong here!' Another more rational part of me knows that some of them have no options. Many have lost their jobs and don't know how to feed their families. Others just can't stand the constant worrying about their children or spouse. Many of the female doctors and scientists want to leave because it's no longer safe for women to work like before. For some, the option is becoming a housewife or leaving abroad to look for the security to work.

"Whatever the reason, the brains are slowly seeping out of Iraq. It's no longer a place for learning or studying or working… it's a place for wealthy contractors looking to get wealthier, extremists, thieves (of all ranks and origins) and troops…"

[Poiuyt]

18. Who is doing the assassinating?

[Columbia]

24. Another blog

http://iraqataglance.blogspot.com/

It was the right decision...
For all those who say that the war on Iraq was wrong and G.W.Bush or T.Blair depended on wrong information and their intelligence agencies were misled cause it depended on faulty sources regarding WMD ..etc.
And also for those who emphasize that the war on Iraq was mainly because of WMD..
Just tell me what’s your ‘great idea’ that should have been used to get rid of Saddam and put an end to his regime? Or you think that you have nothing to do with Iraq and Iraqis? And you don’t care about their lives and the way they were living under Saddam?

...

So, for those who don’t agree with the war on Iraq I want to tell them if we depended on the UN and other countries who refused the war decision we would still live under Saddam with his thugs for the rest of our lives!
God bless Iraq, USA, UK and all those who helped in liberating us.

[alcuno]

15. The question is is the United States better off today.

I hate that other argument since it implies that our national interest is in the nation of Iraq instead of our own.

[kentuck]

16. Excellent point alcuno !

That should be the question...

[Poiuyt]

19. Iraq is more free but less safe

At least before we invaded, the people of Iraq had jobs, electricity, water and they were not afraid of some car bomb blowing up.

[JackDragna]

20. I'll argue it.

Hussein, despot though he was, didn't hold onto power by accident. He was the frontman for the Sunnis in Iraq, a people deathly scared of radical Shi'ites. The Shi'ites are the majority in Iraq: if real elections were held, the Shi'ites dominate Iraq's political structure. Hussein provided a secular government where the power of the Shi'ites and ethnic groups like the Kurds were checked. Now that Hussein is gone, the nation is up for grabs, with fundamentalist Islam standing the most to gain. Democracy only comes to nations over time, when the citizens decide the ideals of free government are worth fighting for. To try to force a people to accept said ideals by throwing out their leader is only asking the people to rebel against their so-called liberators. Iraq would be infinitely better off were Hussein in power.

[Columbia]

23. Really?

Hussein, despot though he was, didn't hold onto power by accident.

You're right, he killed all those who disagreed with him.

He was the frontman for the Sunnis in Iraq, a people deathly scared of radical Shi'ites. The Shi'ites are the majority in Iraq: if real elections were held, the Shi'ites dominate Iraq's political structure. Hussein provided a secular government where the power of the Shi'ites and ethnic groups like the Kurds were checked.

You're talking as if suppression of the rights of the majority is an admirable goal. Protection of all groups, majority and minority alike, is a better ideal.

Now that Hussein is gone, the nation is up for grabs, with fundamentalist Islam standing the most to gain. Democracy only comes to nations over time, when the citizens decide the ideals of free government are worth fighting for. To try to force a people to accept said ideals by throwing out their leader is only asking the people to rebel against their so-called liberators.

Considering that the majority of Iraqis want a democracy and not religious rule by an ayatollah, I'd say these citizens share the same ideals as the liberators.

Iraq would be infinitely better off were Hussein in power.

Now, THAT is the funniest thing I've heard all week.

[DisgustiPatriotiated]

22. Still not worth the cost of lives in American soldiers,

tax payer dollars, no connection whatsoever to 911, etc., ...

[otohara]

25. Not Sure The Women of Iraq Agree

hello ancient Islamic restrictions, good bye feeling safe to walk the streets.

[nomatrix]

27. Always answer

who's in charge? No really, who is in charge? Since no one else has run Iraq, how would you know the next leader would be any better? When did you become an expert on the politics of Iraq? They haven't lived under this "freedom" yet, so what are you basing this on? Lawrence of Arabia?

[I Thaumaturgist]

28. Better?

Everyone get's happy when people stop dropping bombs on you. Iraq was better off before Sadam trusted poppy and invaded Kuwait.

[dbt]

29. Just asking: "Iraq is better off exactly how?"

Did Saddam ever kill 10,000 civilians in a year's time? Just asking.
How does having a foreign army on one's own soil make one better off? Just asking.
How is the devil you don't know better than the devil you know? Just asking.

Where are the Weapons of Mass Destruction? Just asking.

:evilgrin:
dbt

[gulliver]

30. No one argued before the war that it was to make Iraq better off.

It's just a classic bait and switch.

Bush is spending tens of billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars to make Iraq better off. Of course it is better off. But what happens after the election?

[CookieD]

31. The question is whether it was necessary for us to pay ...

such a terrible price. Every time the right-wing trots out this question we need to be able to turn it around on them with just a few words. Nuanced arguments are the single, biggest reason why we are minority party.

[spanone]

32. The WORLD would be better off today without George Bush*

[Lucille]

33. 7,000 united Shiites and Sunnis united yesterday to argue that point,

which always seems to be made by people in the West. Yesterday I saw a formally embedded CNN correspondent dismiss these protests as a "what have you done for me lately" whinge. Juan Cole has another take. (For those who don't know him, Juan Cole is a professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History at the University of Michigan.) From today's blog entry:

http://www.juancole.com/

Thousands of Shiites, Sunnis, March Against US in Baghdad

Thousands of Shiites and Sunnis demonstrated in Baghdad after Friday prayers. I caught some of the demonstration on CNN, which reported 7,000 demonstrators, and some of them were carrying pictures of Muqtada al-Sadr. Interestingly, the rallies began at the shrine of Imam Musa al-Kazim in Kazimiyah, a Shiite suburb of the capital, but then the crowds moved to Azamiyah, across the bridge, to meet up with Sunni protesters (Azamiyah is a largely Sunni neighborhood). In the past, there have been occasional ethnic riots between Kazimiyah and Azamiyah, but George Bush has managed to unite them. They demanded an end to the US military presence in Iraq, and the release of Iraqi prisoners being held by the Americans.

(emphasis added)


----

Here is Cole's source:
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=9332

----snip
"We are all time-bombs at the service of the Hawza (the Shiite religious authority)," the imam told the worshippers, urging them to join ranks "with our Sunni brothers" and protest against US presence in Iraq peacefully.

The Americans, he said, "are violating Iraq".

The Shiite worshippers left the mosque and headed for the neighborhood of Azamiya across the Tigris River to link up with Sunni protesters gathered outside one of their mosques.

There they mingled, holding up placards in Arabic and English denouncing "American terrorism".

"Human rights have disappeared" said one sign. Another called for the "end to destruction" in Iraq and a third condemned the "indiscriminate" firing of US troops on suspects in the Iraqi capital.

"Before the war, Iraq had no links whatsoever to international terrorism," Sunni cleric Jawad al-Khalissi said.

"Occupation brought international terrorism to our land," he added, blaming the US presence in Iraq for nearly daily bombings and attacks that have rocked the war-battered country since major combat was declared over last May 1.

Khalissi also denounced the US military for detaining thousands of Iraqi and said: "The Americans refuse to allow journalists to visit thousands of Iraqi prisoners and won't allow them (detainees) to have access to lawyers".
---------snip

Cole notes that some Sunnis were carrying signs bearing the picture of Muqtada al-Sadr. Apparantly he is a young cleric who supposedly is looking to solidify his power base by confronting the Shiites on their oppression of Sunnis during Saddam. Looks like both factions are putting these differences aside, at least temporarily. "The enemy of my enemy..." and all that.

[sal]

34. Like John Stewart said:

"Yeah, it's a little lighter too, but not by much."

[Solomon]

35. Okay. I'll say it since everyone else is afraid of saying it.

No, the world is NOT better off or safer without Saddam Hussein.

No, the mass graves would not be being filled if Saddam were still in power. I tell ya what though, they got more mass graves over there now and it ain't Saddam filling them.

It's all bullshit. The demonization of Saddam is one of the greatest propaganda achievements of the twentieth century. Fidel Castro is the other. Both guys were lawyers and socialist for christ sakes. Both guys tried to advance education and health care, the two things that are guaranteed to bring the wrath of american terrorists upon your head.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. I'd like to see a side by side statistic of the number of people executed by Saddam with the number of executions in the US over the same time period. Shit, I'll bet George alone has more.

What americans don't get is that we are the only suckers eating this shit. The rest of the world knows its bullshit. I'm sick of the cowardly way every american trumpets this "better off without Saddam" shit because it's the proper thing to say. Fuck all of 'em. I'm sick to death of the hypocrisy.

[caledesi]

42. I can see why your name is Solomon.

"You can handle the truth." - Jack Nicholson, A Few Good Men

[Karenina]

44. Speak the TRUTH to POWER, my man!

:loveya:

[Bandit]

36. No one can argue that tax cuts create jobs

D'oh I hate it when a sentence begins in that manner. Of course people can argue the opposite. It just depends on your argument and so far the Bush* argument has been without fact to back any of it up.

[caledesi]

38. Excellent post Kentuck! nt

[bearfartinthewoods]

41. one fact so many people choose to ignore

people were dying by the hundreds each day, starving and dying from a lack of basics because saddam was sucking that country dry like a giant vampire.

iraq was not france and i'm surprised that you would try and pretend it is.

[kentuck]

43. Wrong. People were dying by the thousands....mostly children...

due to starvation and disease, mainly because of 12 years of sanctions. Wht had once been the most advanced of the Middle Eastern countries was brought to its knees. We knew what their military capabilities were before we went in. After all, we had inspectors and spies in that country for years before we invaded. We knew they were not a threat.

[SOS]

45. China's human rights record

is as bad as Hussein's.

Slaughter of Tibetans
10,000 executions a year
No due process
Millions in slave labor camps
Threatens neighbor
Slaughters thousands of pro-democracy demonstrators
No elections
Routine use of torture on political prisoners
Backed genocide of 2 million Cambodians
Posseses WMD

When will Bush invade?

[Karenina]

46. Hey SOS!

You make an important point so succinctly. It inspires me to ask of those who still labour under the myth of "America, the GOOD" what they know of American foreign policy, that (in the paraphrased words of *chimp in chief) is willing and HAS exported death and destruction to the 4 corners of the earth in defence of its "great nation's" corrupt wealth and power.

There are folks in the streets all over the world today. What's that DEAFENING SILENCE??? *fratboy is in Florida. Film at 11.