Did you know that General Custer has a big fat monument at west point?

[CalebHayes]

I say we put a leash free dog park here!

[Zomby Woof]

1. A monument to mediocrity

How odd that they would erect a monument to a cadet who graduated LAST in his class.

[HereSince1628]

2. But he could whistle the Gary Owen!

Anyone who can whistle a drinking tune can't be all bad.

[mmm]

3. He's no hero of mine

[SoCalDem]

4. That must make Rummy hopeful

He messed up Iraq,so he may end up with a statue too.....but then he was not a west pointer, so.... Maybe the people of Baghdad will put one up for him :)..

[StClone]

5. Bush like

-Last in Class
-both presided over "Little Big Horns"

What else?

[bigtree]

6. Custer and Black Kettle (had 'Ghost Dance' vision)

November 15, 1868.
-- Arrived: Black Kettle and Little Robe, chiefs of the Cheyenne tribe of Indians; were well received by me, and some rations issued to them. They promised to await the return of General Hazen from Fort Arbuckle.

November 16, 1868. -- Arrived: Little Big Mouth, Spotted Wolf, and Little Horse, chiefs of the Arapahoe tribe of Indians; were treated by me the same as the Cheyennes, and also consented to wait and see General Hazen.

November 20 and 21, 1868. -- An interview took place between General Hazen and the delegations of Cheyennes and Arapahoes, headed by Black Kettle and Little Big Mouth. The following is from notes taken of the remarks of each.

BLACK KETTLE, CHEYENNE CHIEF, said: I always feel well while I am among these friends of mine, the Witchitas, Wacoes, and affiliated bands, and I never feel afraid to go among the white men here, because I know them to be my friends also.

The Cheyennes when south of the Arkansas did not wish to return to the north side, but our Father (agent) sent for us, and we were told we had better go there, as we should be paid well for so doing, by feeding, etc.

The Cheyennes do not fight the people this side of the Arkansas, and do not trouble Texas, but north of the Arkansas they are almost always at war.

I do not represent all the Cheyennes; some are still north of the Arkansas. I come from a point on the Washita River, about one day's ride from Antelope Hills. Near me there are over one hundred lodges of my tribe, only a part of them are my followers. I have always done my best to keep my young men quiet, but some of them will not listen. When recently north of the Arkansas, some of them were fired upon, and then the war began. I have not since been able to keep my young men at home.

I have come here and seen all my friends among the Indians, and have also seen that the white men are my friends, and it makes me happy. I should like to stop fighting, and come here soon with my people, and stay here with these Indian friends of mine, and be fed until the war is over. But I only control part of the Cheyennes.



LITTLE BIG MOUTH, ARAPAHOE CHIEF, said: I have come down here a long way to the country in which I was born; the country between the Witchita Mountains and the mountains on the Arkansas, where I roamed when a boy, to see all these Indians -- my friends -- and to have a talk.

I look upon you (General Hazen) as the representative of the Great Father (the President). I would not have come near you had I wished to do wrong, but come because I want to do right.

I never would have gone north of the Arkansas again, but my Father there, the agent, continually sent for me, time after time, and finally I went. As soon as we got there we got into trouble.

My people wish no trouble, but, although we have come back south of the Arkansas, the soldiers follow us, and continue fighting. We want no more fighting, and we want you to send out and stop these soldiers from coming against us. I wish you to send a paper to our Great Father, at Washington, at once, to have this fighting stopped, that we want no more of it. Although my kinsmen have been killed, we will forget it, and we wish for Peace.

MAJOR-GENERAL W. B. HAZEN, U. S. A., said: The Great Father at Washington sent for me when I was away out in New Mexico, because I had been much with the Indians, and liked them, to come here and take care of all the Cheyennes, Arapahoes, Apaches, Kiowas and Comanches, to look after them and their agents, to get them on to their Reservations, as provided in the Medicine Lodge Treaty. Before I could come from New Mexico, the Cheyennes and Arapahoes had gone to war, so that I could not see them; but I saw the others at Fort Larned, and I have come here as I promised them.

I was sent here as a peace-chief; all here is to be peace, and we will keep the faith; but north of the Arkansas is General Sheridan, the great war-chief. I cannot control him, and he has all the soldiers, who are fighting the Cheyennes and Arapahoes. I cannot deal with the tribes who are at war until after they have made peace with the troops who are fighting them; therefore, you must go back to your country, and if the soldiers come to attack you, you must remember they are not from me, but from that great war-chief, and with him you must make Peace.

The people in Kansas and Texas, and in the east are all one people, and when peace comes, it must be with all these places alike.

Then I will go with you and your agent on to your Reservation, and look out for you there.

I am satisfied that you want peace; that is has not been you, but your bad men who have made war; and I will do all I can for you to have peace made.

November 22, 1868. -- The Cheyenne and Arapahoe delegation started to-day for their camps on the Upper Washita. HENRY E. ALVORD, Captain Tenth Regt. Cavalry, U. S. A. CAMP WITCHITA, INDIAN TY., April 12, 1869.

Seven days after this interview, Black Kettle's band was attacked by General Custer on the banks of the Washita, and their chief was killed.

[necso]

7. Actually,

Custer was quite a hero and a beloved (by his troopers) cavalry leader in the Civil War. At Gettysburg, to site one example, he led his troopers in repeated, reckless cavalry charges (after disobeying orders), stopping a Confederate cavalry attack aimed at flanking the Union lines and attacking their rear.

In the Plains Wars he demonstrated a disdain for Native Americans which does him no credit, along with the same disregard for orders and reckless bravery. But these attributes were well known to his superiors who sent him against the massed Sioux and Cheyenne Nations with troopers much different than his courageous "Michigan Wolverines".

It was fitting that Custer should die in battle, a battle that although he lost, was the last major battle of the Plains Wars.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CalebHayes]

9. blah blah blah.... Custer was a great... A-HOLE!

Good for Sitting Bull! Someone needed to kill that man!

[necso]

22. Again.

Sitting Bull did not fight in the Battle of the Little Horn. His principal contribution has the terrible sacrifice associated with his "medicine dream" which gave the people foreknowledge of Custer's attack and every confidence that they would emerge victorious. It is reputed to be Crazy Horse, who leading a mixed force of Sioux and Cheyenne warriors, that crested the hill Custer was retreating towards before he (Custer) could, surrounding him and sealing his fate.

The Sioux, to my knowledge, have never maintained anything other than Custer and at least some of his troops died like men. While it is true that some Cheyenne have said differently, there was much, well deserved bitterness towards Custer and the 7th in that Nation. For the plains Sioux Nation, this was their greatest and last victory against white encroachment, the dying gasp of a brave, proud warrior people, who were the terror of their many enemies.

There is nothing wrong with the military honoring their fallen. Custer was a man of his times, no more or less. He could be cruel and thoughtless, bigoted and narrow minded, but so were his peers, tempered in a war of horrific proportions and acts. His service and courage during that war, at least, are a fitting reminder to men and women, who are dedicating their lives to such ideals, of one who gave his all.

I am sorry if you take offense at this.

[underpants]

10. Custer was the youngest general ever

for what it is worth.

[Zolok]

13. Ripped the Confederates a new one at Gettysburg though...

That arrogant a-hole Bobby Lee sent his Stuart's calvalry round the Union Right on the third day to try and stir up the usual panic in the rear.
Custer was waiting for him....

Custer was no prize, but he did right by the Union during the Civil War and that ought to be remembered.

[bigtree]

17. His army career ended June 25, 1876, at the battle of Little Big Horn,

which resulted in the extermination of his immediate command and a total loss of some 266 officers and men. On June 28th, the bodies were given a hasty burial on the field. The following year, what may have been Custer's remains were disinterred and given a military funeral at West Point. (Monaghan, Jan, Custer: The Life of George Armstrong Custer)

[theboss]

21. Custer was more lucky than good

He was known for making reckless charges when they weren't necessary. They made for a good legend but, obviously, it eventually caught up to him.

[FARAFIELD]

20. CUSTER WASNT THE YOUNGEST GENERAL EVER

on the union side the youngest was Galusha Pennypacker of the 97th PA. (V) he made it right before his 21st Birthday. Paul Roberts of North Carolina was the youngest Confederate at 23. Both were younger than custer who was 24 when he made General. And there were at least a dozen younger than Custer on the Union Side that i can think of (A.A. Ames and Arthur McArthur (yes doug's dad)) were both younger.

[underpants]

32. Okay thanks for the information

I was totally unaware of that. You learn something new everyday.

[underpants]

11. Hey Pats fans!!! Adam Venietari's greatgrandfather was in Custer's Army

under his command.

For what it is worth.

[maggrwaggr]

12. you think they'd be embarrassed.

the only monument about Custer is that he was a monumental fuck-up.

[CalebHayes]

14. Thank you!

[NoPasaran]

15. Custer deserves some respect for his Civil War service

Which included capturing Lee's supply trains at Appomattox Station, leading to his surrender the next day at Appomattox C.H.

There is also a Custer Monument at Gettysburg on the East Cavalry Field where he and his Wolverines were engaged on July 3.

[Desperadoe]

16. He should have a staue

Imagine, a General in the U.S. Army getting killed in a battle!!

If that happened more often we wouldn't have any more wars. Hell, today Custer would run the Battle of Little Big Horn from his HQ in Tampa.

[bigtree]

19. Little Big Horn was to be a massacre of the 'Sioux'

The Battle of Little Bighorn
An Eyewitness Account by the Lakota Chief Red Horse
recorded in pictographs and text
at the Cheyenne River Reservation, 1881

"The soldiers charged the Sioux camp about noon. The soldiers were divided, one party charging right into the camp. After driving these soldiers across the river, the Sioux charged the different soldiers below, and drive them in confusion; these soldiers became foolish, many throwing away their guns and raising their hands, saying, "Sioux, pity us; take us prisoners." The Sioux did not take a single soldier prisoner, but killed all of them; none were left alive for even a few minutes. These different soldiers discharged their guns but little. I took a gun and two belts off two dead soldiers; out of one belt two cartridges were gone, out of the other five.

The Sioux took the guns and cartridges off the dead soldiers and went to the hill on which the soldiers were, surrounded and fought them with the guns and cartridges of the dead soldiers. Had the soldiers not divided I think they would have killed many Sioux. The different soldiers that the Sioux killed made five brave stands. Once the Sioux charged right in the midst of the different soldiers and scattered them all, fighting among the soldiers hand to hand.

One band of soldiers was in rear of the Sioux. When this band of soldiers charged, the Sioux fell back, and the Sioux and the soldiers stood facing each other. Then all the Sioux became brave and charged the soldiers. The Sioux went but a short distance before they separated and surrounded the soldiers. I could see the officers riding in front of the soldiers and hear them shooting. Now the Sioux had many killed. The soldiers killed 136 and wounded 160 Sioux. The Sioux killed all these different soldiers in the ravine.

The banks of the Little Bighorn river were high, and the Sioux killed many of the soldiers while crossing. The soldiers on the hill dug up the ground , and the soldiers and Sioux fought at long range, sometimes the Sioux charging close up. The fight continued at long range until a Sioux man saw the walking soldiers coming. When the walking soldiers came near the Sioux became afraid and ran away."
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/six/bighorn.htm

10th Annual Report of the Bureau of American Ethnology (1893).]

[Scout]

27. Lakota Noon

I visited the Little Bighorn memorial this summer ... they had just opened the Native American memorial there about a month prior. Very moving experience to visit it.

I asked the NA park interpreter what book she could recommend that best told the story of the battle from the winners' side, and she recommended Lakota Noon by Gregory F. Michno. I read it, and found it to be a very interesting and well-documented account. My husband has studied and read extensively on US (and other countries) military history and he found it to be well done, balanced. I highly recommend this book.

Edited to add detail: with the continuing discovery of archaeological evidence, shell casings, etc. historians are now able to "track" individual soldiers and groups from the cavalry and the indians. The narratives of individual participants and observers are broken down into chronological order, organized in 10-minute intervals ... very interesting and informative approach to the telling.

[mrbill]

28. also check out "son of the morning star" by evan connell.

my favorite book on custer.

[Silverhair]

30. The job of a general is to MANAGE the battle.

Those who critize generals for being at HQ, would lose wars if they were themselves generals. To manage a battle, and give competent orders, you have to be were the center of information is. And that isn't up front in a foxhole. Up front you see only the worm's eye view of what is happening. At the HQ, you can know more about what is happening, and can get your own orders out.

Generals never start out as generals. They were always junior officers at one time, and proved their personal courage under fire as junior officers.

You comments merely display a profound lack of knowledge of how a winning military works. Putting the general up front sounds great, but is a formula for losing the battle and getting lots of your guys killed due to incompetence.

[Loonman]

18. Custer was a victim of his own pride

Once he saw that massive Sioux encampment, he just couldn't not attack.

[9215]

23. Mixed feelings about Custer

I think the guy was suffering from some serious post traumatic stress disorder from the Civil War. He became famous at a very young age. It seems to me he never had a chance to mature or reflect on things. He was always "on duty".

His recklessness finally caught up with him at Little Big Horn. But it served him and the country well at Gettysburg.

For some reason I don't think he really hated Native Americans, he spoke with admiration of their bravery and skill in battle.


If we can have statues of Robert E. Lee and other rebel leaders then I don't see why we can't have one of Custer.

[legin]

24. I bet Sherman has got some statues too

(from a fav book of mine, JFC Fuller's 'The Conduct of War: 1789-1967 (something like that))

Of Lee, Rhodes says that in all essential characteristics he resembled Washington; therefore, he belonged to the eighteenth century - to the agricultural age of history. Sherman, and to a lesser extent Grant, Sheridan and other Federal generals, belonged to the age of the Industrial Revolution, and their guiding principle was that of the machine which was fashioning them - namely, efficiency. And because efficiency is governed by a single law, that every means is justified by the end, no moral or spiritual conception, or traditional behaviour, can be tolerated should it stand in its way.

Sherman was the leading exponent of this return to barbarism. He broke away from the conventions of nineteenth century warfare, and waged war with steel as ruthlessly as Calvin had waged it with the word. After severe fighting, on 1st September 1864, he took Atlanta, 'the gate city of the South', and bent on leaving no enemies behind him he evacuated the entire population. He explained in a letter to General Halleck, Chief of Staff at Washington: 'If the people raise a howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war... If they want peace they and their relatives must stop the war.'

For the nineteenth century this was a new conception, because it meant that the deciding factor in war - the power to sue for peace - was transferred from government to people, and that peace-making was a product of revolution. This was to carry the principle of democracy to its ultimate stage, and with it introduce the theory of the psychological attack - in essence Marxist warfare. Of Sherman, Major George W. Nichols, one of his aides-de-camp, says: 'He is a Democrat in the best sense of the word. There is nothing European about him. He is a striking type of our institutions.'

Later, when Sherman set out on his famous march through Georgia, he made this new concept of war his guiding principle, and waged war against the people of the South as fully as against its armed forces.

Nothing like this march had been seen in the West since the maraudings of Tilly and Wallenstein in the Thirty Year's War. Southern guerillas, as Sherman notes, had shown and continued to show much brutality; but the atrocities they perpetrated were individual acts and not acts of policy. With some justification Jefferson Davis calls Sherman 'the Attila of the American Continent.'

Terror was the basic factor in Sherman's policy, he openly says so. Here are three citations out of a considerable number:
'Until we can repopulate Georgia, it is useless to occupy it; but the utter destruction of the roads, houses and people will cripple their military resources... I can make the march, and make Georgia howl.'
'Should I be forced to assault... I shall then feel justified in resorting to the harshest measures, and shall make little effort to restrain my army.'
'We are not only fighting hostile armies, but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war... The truth is the whole army is burning with an insatiable desire to wreak vengeance upon South Carolina. I almost tremble for her fate.'

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. Even Sherman

I love the historical revisionists. Nobody in the past is ever good enough for them. Forget that Sherman fought the slave-owning South. Forget that he freed slaves by the thousands. Forget that the war was still going on and he was destroying the South from within, helping the North win. Forget that he was also the union general to give Southern slaves land and mules to try to make a life for themselves.

Yeah, he was an evil man.

Geez.

As for Custer, he was a Civil War hero who fought valiantly at Gettysburg and continued excellent service throughout the war. Yes, he treated the Indians poorly. That was government policy at the time. (From the way we handle their accounts, it still seems like it is.) He died a hero, fighting for his country. Was he wise at Little Big Horn? Hell no. But he had been daring much of his career and it paid off.

[ShaneGR]

25. Kind of disrespectful???

All West Point officers who die in combat are allowed burial on the grounds, normally the family pays for the gravestone. Would you be offended if someone took a picture of your gravestone and said the same?

[mrbill]

26. custer graduated last in his class at west point.

He wanted to be a great war-hero turned president.

He was a total dumb-ass and his luck ran out at little big horn, probably some kind of karma deal.

Viva the Indians.

Chimpy and george custer share a lot of qualities.

[cmd]

31. He has a statue and a small park at his birthplace

Custer was born in New Rumley, Ohio, not far from where I live. It's a small park that is under the care of the Ohio Historical Society. I abhor his treatment of the Native Americans. I abhor America's treatment of Native Americans.