CBS News Commentary: Moral Values Malarkey

[West Coast Democrat]

Let’s try to snuff this election’s new Big Theory before it becomes Conventional Wisdom, although it’s probably too late.

The subject matter is "moral values." The theory is this: Kerry lost because he was very unpopular with people who believe moral values are the most important issues. This group of values voters is growing and Democrats are doomed until they can win them over.

(snip)

While the nexus of issues boiled into the words "moral values" certainly were a big factor in this election, it’s being exaggerated partly because of the oddities of the poll itself and partly because the Big Theory conforms with what Republican strategists want you to believe.

First, the poll: If the poll had been worded or constructed only slightly differently, moral values would not have been the top issue. We’re building a worldview out of a small, odd vista.

more...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/05/opinion/meyer/main653931.shtml

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. Gee, people who are concerned about Iraq chose Kerry by 55%....

over the Draft Dodger Chimp!

[JI7]

16. Kerry won on issues that matter, Bush won on gay bashing and other hate

they knew bush coudln't win on issues that matter. so they brought out the hateful crowd by putting up anti gay measures to vote on.

[agingdem]

30. Fear and loathing...

on 9/11 the definition of normal changed...but Georgie would not allow us to get to that new definition...BE AFRAID... BE VERY AFRAID...of Gays, Muslims, Blacks, Hispanics, Jews...of elitists (ie. people who read and think)...of Roe v. Wade...of medicare...of social security...of gun control...of healthcare...of affirmative action...BE AFRAID!

[pleiku52cab]

35. KKKKarl strikes again

Only he could have hate and fear into the moral 'high ground'. But maybe it is not so surprising considering the intellectual mind set of most awol supporters who already hated all of the groups you mentioned above.

[ilovenicepeople]

96. "Moral Values"=blown up children

My morals don't value murder."FUCK YOU SATAN!"

[TaleWgnDg]

103. Get out the fear+religion vote!! What CBS didn't want to say . . .

So much for questionnaires, statistics, and the crunching of numbers. One may shade it this way or that way.

The one issue that is not adaquately addressed in this CBS article is that whatever the hell one may call it, Karl Rove and Company did sleaze in the churches and religious sects across America by intertwining religion and politics. And instilling fear.

Fear is a great motivator.

Fear brought many to the polling places. Fear combined with Jesus-speak? It's unquestioned. Jesus-folk don't question authority. It's sold goods, paid and delivered, period. In doing so, Rove "got out the vote" for GWBush in large numbers across "bumfuck" America where "moral values" remains code words for "Jesus is gonna fuck me and my family unless I vote for 'freedom' and 'liberty' and the 'American way'."

Ah, scapegoating. Demonizing. And, gays.

The focal in drawing out the Jesus-vote was vital in swing states. How better to accomplish than to polarize the Jesus-vote w/ a ballot question? And the anti-gay marriage state constitution amendment was on the ballot in how many states? Ohio was one. Ohio was a swing state. It's not too difficult to place a question on the ballot in most states. Ah, grass roots planning in "heartland America."

What's the solution to all of this? Get to these voters by telling them that they are shooting themselves in the foot? That's a tall order when trying to separate Jesus from lies than are seen as truths. Or, try to use Jesus-speak to introduce them to real moralities and immoralities? That, too, is a tall order. And quite foreign to Democrats.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .



.

[BayStateBoy]

101. I sent Meyer the Following Reply

The mainstream news media have been spoon fed a new word by Bush/Rove. That word is "evangelical," and they are babbling it excitedly like babes at a day care to the exclusion of some very real issues impacting the Bush Presidency.

The second Bush/Rove pabulum is the Bush "mandate," also being belched along with the evangelical pill. Meanwhile, no one seems to entertain the possibility that the Bush "mandate" may mostly be an Electoral WMD.

That is not to imply that Republican grassroots efforts, moral values, the evangelical vote were important especially in Ohio. No question. Kerry was up against it in a nation voting with its Bible and belly instead of its brain. But, those issues are instantly eclipsed by the following:

1. Electronic (BBV) voting, or any voting method that does not leave a permanent paper trail which can be audited is a felony to democracy.

The legitimacy of democratic elections is predicated upon the electorate's ability to verify election results. To deny the people or any candidate the option of a recount is directly contrary to the democratic principles upon which this nation was founded. Therefore any voting method not leaving a permanent verifiable record should be eradicated forever from the American political landscape.

2. Re: Exit polling, please no more excuses or distortions. Exit polling always correlates within 2% with voting tallies. We need answers, or in the absence thereof, a serious investigation of the following facts:

a. In Election 2004 the only exit polls that did not correlate closely with voting tallies were in states using BBV or a combination of methods including electronic machines. http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=388" WHY?

b. In Election 2004, in every instance where there was significant statistical discrepancy between the exit polls and the voting tallies, George W. Bush was the recipient of additional votes and never John Kerry. WHY?

WI +4B MN +7B NC +9B FL +7B OH +6B CO +4B PA +5B NH +15B
NM +3B


http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spectrum/archives/000715.html
http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm

http://www.michigancityin.com/articles/2004/11/04/news/news02.txt

***The statistical probability of a & b resulting from something other than random chance will be published shortly.

c. "The last wave of national exit polls we received, along with many other subscribers, showed Kerry winning the popular vote by 51 percent to 48 percent." http://nytimes.com/2004/11/05/politics/campaign/05poll.html

If you think that I am screaming fraud, you are missing the point. I submit that these issues should be thoroughly investigated, not in any attempt necessarily to overturn the election, but to pursue the truth which is the mainstay of any democracy and which used to be the heart and soul of news journalism.

[icymist]

2. Why is the exit poll question about moral values taken as accurate

when the exit polls taken about voting for Kerry dismissed as in error? Something fishy here.

On edit for my bad spelling.

[snacker]

4. Good point

[WCGreen]

7. I am so glad someone else picked up on that...

NT

[Chelsea Patriot]

27. I've been questioning that too!

Why are some exit polls valid yet others can not be considered accurate?

The valid exit polls always favor *, just like all the computer glitches always favor *, too,

[underpants]

8. "They" are laying the groundwork for the Gay amendment thru the press

Actually they are laying the groundwork for everything they want to do under the heading of "Morals". Instead of "(do this) or the terrorists win" it will be "If you oppose us on (this) you are immoral or lack values"

I can see it coming from a mile away.

[Neshanic]

64. We have a winner! Exactly.

[mazzarro]

17. There you go

I bet no one of the 'moran' talking heads will dare answer that!

[Bluebear]

29. I've been saying that since Tuesday

The media is cooperating nicely with the "Mandate" chimp.

[delete_bush]

55. Not fishy in the same sense as voting for Kerry, but

could very well be wrong. I'm only guessing, but I think the difference is that exit polling data has to be adjusted for each group, such as gender, age, etc, to conform to the anticipated turn out of that group. In other words, if the sample includes 20% of a certain age group and 60% of that group says they voted for Kerry, if they are only projecting a 15% turnout for this group then the overall projections have to be modified.

The exit polling data is correct for these groups, but you need more information to get to the final result. If I'm right about this, then the moral values result again is only as accurate as the sample comports to the voting population. If they oversampled religious people and they were more concerned about moral values, the results would be off. Still, I would think it's reasonably accurate given the large sample size.

[jjanpundt]

3. Maybe it's just my imagination, but I

keep getting the feeling the CBS is not quite the * shills the other news stations are. I've always liked Dan Rather and thought he took the outcome of the election pretty hard. He is so professional but there were a couple of times he looked like he'd been punched in the gut.

[MisterP]

9. well, why else were they lynched over their reporting of

the source of Barnes's AWOL documents?

[lancdem]

5. This is a really good column

I was going to post that terrorism was a factor that's been overlooked. We didn't have that in previous presidential elections. I love the numbers about the economy/jobs, moderates and first-time voters. Back when we were losing elections in the '80s, we didn't win moderates, or even come close.

It's also interesting that 17 percent of voters in 1996 cited family values as the top issue, and that's probably a more narrow definition than moral values, so perhaps that share of the electorate hasn't really grown.

[hangloose]

6. I tend to agree with you, I believe it was a planted issue to

deceive and confuse and provide a convenient reason why the votes didn't go to Kerry. I haven't investigated this but my impression was the moral card was played in Ohio and Florida where the ballot and the exit polls don't add up. Was there wide ranging information across the nation that morals was a determent in decisions to vote for one or the other candidate ?

[young_at_heart]

13. Deceive and confuse......what a novel idea!

Who do you suppose came up with such a strategy?

[shuffnew]

105. Deceive, Confuse, & Osama Terror Threat to Economy??

Let's not forget the partial airing of Osama tape to us in the US just before the election. Let's not forget (to my knowledge) the entire Osama tape has not been shown in the US. Below article supposedly addresses some of the unaired portions to the US. I was actually watching CNN with they started to show the video and stopped it quick saying the editing and translation was not yet complete. Then aired the completed product later....

What will we ever know about the full text (versus selective text that we saw) of Osama addressing the American voters before the 2004 Presidential Election? Have we further possibly identified who the far-right religious wing nuts are and their duty to carry out a destructive mission?

Some especially concerning excerpts from the below article follow. Excerpts follows -- which supposedly include some of the unaired/uncut portions that were not permitted for airing in the US. (url to articles full text below):

***************excerpt***********************
"The terror mastermind whose al-Qaida network carried out the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks credited the religiously inspired Arab volunteers that he fought with against the Soviets in Afghanistan with having ``bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.'' He suggested the same strategy would work against the United States."

"Bin Laden's latest statement was a selective reading of history. Internal problems and U.S. help, not just the Arab ``holy warriors,'' contributed to the collapse of the Soviet experiment in Afghanistan. The U.S. economy was experiencing trouble before Sept. 11.

Such nuances matter little to angry Muslims who see bin Laden as a hero who stands up to the West, and who were as much his audience as the American voters he addressed directly.

``When you're a fundamentalist, there is no gray area,''"
************end of excerpts********************

Bin Laden's Economy Threat Is Timely

By DONNA BRYSON

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Osama bin Laden vowed to bleed America to bankruptcy, according to a full transcript of unaired portions of a videotape released Monday by an Arab television station. The al-Qaida leader's remarks appeared targeted to the final days of the U.S. presidential campaign in which the struggling economy is a major issue.
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?floc=ne-world-10-l1&flok=FF-APO-1107&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20041101%2F1818523241.htm&sc=1107&photoid=20041029LON816

[ilovenicepeople]

97. America has no right to talk about "Moral Values" after electing SATAN

[The_Casual_Observer]

10. A more plausible explanation was offered before the campaign began

It would be impossible to elect a Yankee Democrat. The south continues to fight the civil war. It wouldn't have mattered what kind of horrible things chimp had done. And in states like Utah, a Democrat would lose even if he ran unopposed. It is probably close to doctrine in the Mormon Church to vote republican.

[high density]

11. It's the economy/Iraq/healthcare/jobs/education stupid...

It shows that Kerry did do a good job capturing votes with what I consider to be real issues. The disconnect between the Iraq and "terrorism" numbers are quite hard to understand, but that's how it has always been I guess. I think it also shows that without the fear of terrorism, these "moral values" voters wouldn't have had such an effect on the election.

But I agree with a previous poster in this thread that it's very suspect that the media loves these exit polls to trump "moral values" but not to verify who actually won the race.

[daleo]

12. This is also code talk to fundamentalists

They will see the result as a miracle, since the election was about "moral values", and thus God interceded. Blatant cheating will be passed off as God's will.

[blondeatlast]

74. Precisely. The language used is carefully chosen.

We on the Left need to sit up and take notice of the so-called "code," not as a way to further divide the electorate, but as a way (I'm being serious here, don't laugh, I mean it!) to "unify" the country.

"Their" issues can be "our" issues if they are approached from the correct angle.

[girl gone mad]

14. I'm not so sure.

Moderate and fiscal conservative Republicans, as well as the more libertarian leaning Republicans, are in shellshock right now about the moral majority asserting so much control.

I think this could potentially cause a rift in the Republican party, particularly if the newly emboldened evangelicals begin demanding concessions.

[lancdem]

18. True

There've been reports on that in the media.

[blondeatlast]

75. And the media NEVER distorts.

Just because it seems favorable to us, don't automatically assume that it's true.

The right wing doesn't seem to make that dangerous assumption.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

19. The Teddy Roosevelt/Ike/Rockefeller branch of the party has to....

join the Democratic Party VERY SOON!

[DeadHead67]

22. I ALREADY DID !!! . . . .

. . .My family on both sides(Mom&Dad) were republican since the Civil War, UNTIL REAGAN!!! We were 'Rockefeller' republicans, very liberal. You may find this hard to believe, but it was the republican party which was, at one time, the progressive party. Lincoln ended slavery. Teddy Roosevelt was VERY progressive, and was an early proponent of a 'Social Security' system, and even favored universal health care. It started with Goldwater, and by Reagan the BrownShirts had the GOP by the throat. Those fuckers are neither republicans nor conservatives, THEY ARE FUCKING FASCISTS!!! And, by the way, don't set me on fire, I am now a solid Democrat.

[jmcgowanjm]

43. Arkansas could soon have a Rockefeller Governor

Speculation in AR DemGazette put the
Guv, Huckabee into Thompson's
Health and Human Services job.

Paul Rockefeller is Lt. Guv.
Son of Winthrop Rockefeller.

[blondeatlast]

76. But we are going to have to entice them.

And it's going to mean we must face some VERY difficult choices.

Very, very difficult choices.

I'm not sure that I want the party to do that.

[saigon68]

15. wonder about repuke moral values?????

WONDER NO MORE.


PUT THESE FUCKING ASSHOLES IN A MOB AND THIS IS THE RESULT.



Lynching 1930

A mob of 10,000 whites took sledgehammers to the county jailhouse doors to get at these two
young blacks accused of raping a white girl; the girl’’s uncle saved the life of a third by
proclaiming the man’’s innocence. Although this was Marion, Ind., most of the nearly 5,000
lynchings documented between Reconstruction and the late 1960s were perpetrated in the South.
(Hangings, beatings and mutilations were called the sentence of ““Judge Lynch.””) Some lynching
photos were made into postcards designed to boost white supremacy, but the tortured bodies and
grotesquely happy crowds ended up revolting as many as they scared. Today the images remind
us that we have not come as far from barbarity as we’’d like to think.


On Edit: This is a photo taken 15 years before I was born, this type of sport existed until the late
1960's well into the Viet-Nam war, when men of color and others were busted out of jails and
““STRUNG UP”” to entertain cheering mobs and provide ““white girls”” with justice.

The Caption is from Life Magazine and a book of 100 pictures that changed AMERIKA

WHAT HAS CHANGED??? IN MY HUMBLE OPINION NOT MUCH

Look at the adoring faces in the picture.

This could be the Prom Night Entertainment for all we know.

Look at smiles on the faces of the young women.

Everyone is having a good Time ( A Mob of 10,000 people)

The EXTREME RIGHT WING is playing off people’’s fears and ENCOURAGING RACISM

[jagasian]

50. USA culture attitude towards homosexuals is an analog of past attitudes...

...towards blacks. Look at TV, there is plenty of gay-exploitation programming, just like their used to be plenty of black-exploitation programming. Hell, I bet people used to want a law banning interracial marriage. Today this bigotry is manifested as wanting to ban homosexual marriage. Same hate, different target.

[saigon68]

56. Absolutely homophobia and Gay baiting are the new sports in amerika

Its going to be like the old game of "Catch the Nigger by the Toe"

At least we have the opportunity to point all of this out there.

Dickless Cheney only refers to blacks as "Niggers" in his own mind, the man's prejudices are impeccable.

[jwirr]

58. There were laws against interracial marriages, mostly

in the south but probably in other places to.

[Charlie Brown]

63. I believe 19 states

had laws prohibitting interracial couples from marrying in 1967 (when the SCOTUS overruled them). Justice Thurgood Marshall could not legally live with his wife (she was Asian) when he moved to Virginia shortly before the decision. It was against the "Law of Moses."

[goforit]

20. It was stolen outright!!!..........No trust with the thugs in power!!

[West Coast Democrat]

21. Here's the poll in question

As you can see, there were overlapping issues in this poll. But I tend to believe the "moral values" issue was a cop out choice for many Bush supporters who probably voted for tax cuts more than anything else.

------------------ KERRY BUSH

Moral Values (22%) 18% 80%

Economy/Jobs (20%) 80% 18%

Terrorism ---(19%) 14% 86%

Iraq --------(15%) 73% 26%

Health Care --(8%) 77% 23%

Taxes --------(5%) 43% 57%

Education ----(4%) 73% 26%

[Carolab]

26. Moral values are just smoke

boil it all down to greed

whatever affects their wallets

they don't want to pay for "welfare", for taxpayer-supported abortion, for "education" (home schools), for "universal health care" (for anyone else's health care), for ANYTHING they don't personally see themselves deriving value from

and damn right it's about tax cuts

it's not about values

[Rose Siding]

53. I agree that "moral values" is code for something else, but

it isn't about taxes. That's further down in the chart. I think it's code for two separate things (there's only room for two "valueS" in the political Kristian's heart)

First, it's code for being anti-choice. I don't think taxpayers have funded abortion for some time now.

The other value! is bigotry. They can't bear *can't bear* the idea of marriage rights.

But I'll tell ya: At this point, I'd be willing to endure an illegal abortion and the shredding of my own marriage license to get out from under this joke democracy we have going on.

But there's a compelling reason that won't work; I'm unwilling to force others into making those kinds of concessions even if I'd consider them myself.

[blondeatlast]

78. It's the toughest thing the Dems have to face, and we may have to decide

on a personal level.

Damn, I marched with my mother and father in support of Roe v. Wade. The thought it may have to be left unprotected is absolutely devastating. But there are undergrounds, and we are facing the destruction of EVERY CIVIL LIBERTY the effing FOUNDING FATHERS put in place.

It may be time to work from the ground up.

The entire nation is at stake here.

[July]

73. Yes, look at what categories they give to Bush.

Terrorism, moral values, and taxes.

In other words, me and my fear, me and my hatred, me and my money.

[PassingFair]

95. The three S's become four

Stupidity
Superstition
Selfishnes; and

Scared

[Old and In the Way]

36. Interesting.....this is what I conclude.

Assuming 100% of the fundies chose "moral values" as their #1 issue and that Bush probably received, say 45 MM of the popular vote....there are only about 15MM max in the American electorate, out of 110MM voters. Every other issue is secular. So there is no huge shift towards a religious society, irregardless of what the cable clowns want to spin it.

[blondeatlast]

79. EXCELLENT point!

And we are assuming that they really did vote for "moral issues," not use that as an excuse for ill-advised tax cuts, as a previous poster mentioned.

[indigo11153]

45. Thanks for this

The link is terrorism. IMO. all else is a smoke screen to try to get us to eat our own. Everyone votes their "moral issues." So this is a bullshit question designed to get a bullshit answer.

People that said "Iraq" were against the war. People that said "terror" were for the war. this is your margin of victory.

The media that let Bush link Iraq and the war on terror and covered up all the Bush lies is to blame for our loss. We spent more time fighting the the RW media than fighting Republicans. We must turn back this propaganda machine.

[blondeatlast]

80. You nailed it. nt

[blondeatlast]

77. Yes, and these voters KNEW that further tax cuts are disastrous, so they

found a convenient scape-pet-goat.

[KayLaw]

23. It's all a crock of tookie

The MSM need a way to explain the inexplicable. Just another stupid lie to pacify the stupid.

[George_S]

24. Kick

[funnymanpants]

25. Exactly!

Thank you Dick Meyers.

Please, Duers, read the article. He shows how statistics do not back the claim that morality was the deciding factor.

[llmart]

28. Many of us on DU picked up on this immediately.....

It became the talking point immediately after the election and they want to shove it down our throats. Hell, even some of my Democratic friends and some here were sucking it up. My parents always taught me to question everything with my own common sense. I don't buy the propaganda - ever.

I happened to walk by a newspaper box today and saw the headlines in the Detroit News (let me refresh your memory on them - staunchly repug; have been cheerleading for Bush for the past 4 years and couldn't bring themselves to endorse him). It says something to the effect "GOP sets sites on Governor Granholm regarding the morals issues". OK, I know that's not the exact headline and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I actually shook my head and said outloud before I could catch myself - here we go.

P.S. Our governor is a Dem and a mighty good governor if I must say so.

[saigon68]

88. kick

[deacon]

31. He was part of the dirtiest, filthiest campaign ever run and he won on

moral values? Just how dumb have we become?

[Catherine Vincent]

32. Moral values was not the deciding factor. The deciding factor

was that those BASTARDS CHEATED!

[Mistahkleeen]

33. Moral values from the Bush administration...BWA HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

37. Adios

[jagasian]

51. I missed it.

There is little reason to delete a post, IMO. I am not influenced by somebody else's bad opinions... nor do I get offended by text.

[jagasian]

52. Oops

Replied to the wrong post.

[Sterling]

85. Good for you.

Don't creep like a Freep and you might last a while longer. Hell you can get a post count up to over 1000 here and be a freep. I think we are tolerent enough.

[teryang]

38. "moral values" voters elect frauds and war profiteers

The Xtians with murky televangelist belief systems keep Machiavellian killers and thieves in power.

Ever hear John Hagee ministries preaching hate against Islam?

Did you ever note how their concrete regurgitation of biblical passages never rises even to the level of dogma? It's a volkish mishmash for the provincial.

[Czolgosz]

39. Intolerance has always been America's weakness, not its moral value.

Interracial marriage was banned as a moral value, prohibition was foisted on America as a moral value, the subjugation of America's native peoples was promoted as a moral value, evolution was (and is) stricken from the schoolhouses as a moral value, women were butchered in back alleys for a moral value, left-leaning actors and artists were blacklisted as a moral value, we even once burned a few ladies in Salem, Mass. as a moral value. If those are moral values, where do I sign up with the sinners?

[JoFerret]

40. Good story. It is malarkey/ bullshit

In fact it is akin to the notion that Bush has a mandate to do whatever r/w crap his little black heart desires.

[PATRICK]

41. Just laugh at them

This evaluation is based on matching them to a crooked vote. This is blather based on a lie and whoever won the percentages and the rambling speculations(done on the spot mind you!) are completely utterly stupid and VALUELESS.

I agree let them talk to themselves all of them. The only pur
The media is a fraud as big as a rigged slot machine and the rigged slot machine has a better chance of paying off than the election system.

Schumer loving his victory is an embarrassing foolishness to top off all the rest of the Ship of State. It is sunk. No one cares what voters think. It is irrelevant. It is only satisfying to the deluded. It is only dismaying to the deluded.

We are free. They f... themselves from the human race. There are no survivors on top. They are trapped in fear. I can live with my funder loonies and lowbrow sadists. We all finally have paused in the struggle to define America. Our value and our differences died with the value of our vote.

Walk down the streets. The malls. Want to shout? Think it would be about the same as streaking? We delegated the sole voice and choice we had to act in one way at one time to rigged voting. Each privately creeps into the box and votes their choice and values and now they are reduced to a common denominator.

We are united as subjects of a despot. We pay taxes to kill others with our children and the works of our hands. We have no value differences, no conflicts, no choices in that tiny damned world the news people and the hacks live in.

I am canceling my newspaper. They are not evil. They have values I share. I will not let the political pornography of Bush lies into my house and pay for the disgrace. They proved utterly useless and powerless to save themselves from what is coming to New York. Why finance the pathos?

[symphony]

42. whose values? and are they better than mine?

forgive me, but I don't stand for:
war, murder,
throwing people into poverty so you can make a few extra dollars,
bigotry,
racism,
never question the church doctrine attitude,
poisoning the environment,
hijacking the notion of G-d and chaining it to your cause - e.g. "G_d loves me, and all the rest of you will go to hell"

If those are the values I need to absorb to be "one of the popular crowd", no, thanks, I'll pass.

[jagasian]

44. For Republicans, anything related to sex is immoral.

However, for Republicans, lying, cheating, stealing, and killing are perfectly acceptable.

[VPStoltz]

46. Valueless Morals

All that such a crock! * took this election thanks to his brother-in-crime in Florida and Diebold in Ohio.

[triguy46]

47. Not in OK, just plain gay bashing

Moral vote? Hell, we passed a lottery bill for the first time by
a margin larger than the "Defense of Marriage" amendment. There's
no moral move on here, just the boot on the throat.

[hankthecrank]

48. 180 degree President

We didn't lose because of the moral values!

1. We lost because the Corporate media told Joe six pack what to think!

2. Them damn black boxes

Tweety was all set to Joe Franks that Joe six pack is tired of the elites liberal media putting all that filth into their homes by the TV. Joe Franks corrected and told him it was corporate ads doing it (its just business) Tweety ended it in a hurry.

All the business shows can't wipe the grin off their faces, till the deficit is said to be still there.

In trying to put out our message here what I've gotten back.

Not bushie fault because of high fuel cost, its them damn liberal passing all those laws. I guess bushie and his pals just couldn't do any thing in 4 years about it. Nothing is ever his fault. They also went back to one Ed Rules its Clinton fault.

They also said that Kerry was traitor. This from the whole side of Chicken Hawks. Their guys were just to busy to go to war. Vietnam was the first war I think were it was Gov wanting war. The Vietnam people didn't want what we were selling. To go against it was hard. We even made some mistakes like taking the anger out on the Troops. We got it right now. Kerry never spoke out against the troops but at our Gov waging the war. I never thought we would be in another war like Vietnam but we are. The Arabs are not buying what we are selling.

I hope he really thinks he has capital!

He is the 180 degree President because he says one thing and always does the opposite. Kind of like talking out of the south bound part of north bound mule!!!

[Carolab]

49. My response to Dick Meyers

Dick:

First of all, not ALL Democrats are rich, white and pedigreed. Please don't feed the "elitist" portrayal of liberals. I know John Kerry is married to a billionairess. I am middle class. Do I care? No, not in the least. Do I think he "represents" me? Not at all. But I believe him when he says he wants to protect "me and my kind".

Second, what makes you think that GEORGE BUSH is representing himself and his kind? Do you think he is a cowboy from Texas? Where have you been? Have you ever heard of Connecticut? Kennebunkport? Andover? Yale? Any of these ring a bell? Well, how about CARLYLE? The truth is most Republicans are corrupt, greedy and dishonest. Yet they try to portray themselves as honest, trustworthy and good-hearted--like, oh I don't know, liberals perhaps?

[joytomme]

54. Moral values

When people prate about moral values, apparently these virtues apply to everyone but the President.

That's what I don't understand. The Repubs say they think moral values are the most important thing and yet Bush lies, cheats and deceives.

Oh mercy me! Now I get it!

You can lie, cheat, deceive, wage an unnecessary war killing thousands of people and act like a thug, but you have moral values as long as you revile homosexuals and abortion.

Ratfuck Diary (http://ratfuckdiary.blogspot.com)

[are_we_united_yet]

57. If people were concerned about moral values

they would vote to fire this administration. -eom-

[morcatknits]

61. It's Moral VALUE -- Just the one.

Having been raised in a fundamentalist environment, I can speak with some authority on their regard for values. There is only one - sex, and that value applies to the sex that other people have. The paradox of spouting off about values and supporting an immoral and unjust war, consciously slaughtering thousands of innocent children, ignoring hunger and homelessness, deliberately depriving poor children of health care they need (as Bush did in Texas,) are all seen as just fine. It's the other guy's view of sex that is wrong, but they might even cut him a little slack on that, if only children or women were involved.

This country has allowed itself to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, where learning rote technical skills is considered an education, and many people have no inclination to question authority or think for themselves. Fundamentalists are taught from the beginning not to question Bros. Jerry or Pat, and most never do, no matter how bizarre their assertions. Texas is anti-education, anti-science, and anti-learning. so it fits right into Bush's plan. A friend, who is contemplating taking some college courses, assured me the other day that it was "strictly for the credentials." I warned her to be careful; she might learn something and surprise herself.

That is the kind of hypocritical narrow-mindednes that we are up against. But, if Rove could figure out how to use it, surely progressives can come up with a plan to deal with it, too.
morcatknits

[are_we_united_yet]

67. "...surely progressives can come up with a plan to deal with it,..."

A lot of people who are much smarter than myself have been trying to crack this nut.

The following is my opinion(not to be confused with fact):

I use fundie cause I 'm too lazy to keep typing Christian Fundamentalist (it is not a slam)

Two fundamental differences come to mind that sharply contrast the fundie and progressive mindsets.

1) Consistency in a value system

2) A wholistic perspective of the nature of issues


1) My experience has been that Christian Fundamentalists are generally not very concerned with resolving apparent contradictions within their value system. For example many (not all but many) Fundies oppose abortion and euthanasia for any reason but support the death penalty. Or they support bombing of Countries in the name the "War on Terror" and the removal of evil dictators. However, the fact that this results in the killing ~100000 Iraqi civilians (many innocent)in a war that is illegal and pre-emptive is justifiable. Progressive mindsets on the other hand ( or at least my mindset), see this as inconsistent and desparately needing reconciliation. Thus a value system that is inconsistent is rejected and refined to the point where inconsistencies are deemd insignificant or unavoidable.

2) The world is complicated. And the issues are intertwined. Kind of like a system of equations in mathematics. Change one thing here, and you potentially change everthing in the system. My experience has been the fundie mindset is not willing to embrace and wrestle with this complexity. The progressive on the other hand take a very broad view of todays issues tries like hell understand all or most and if they are competing issues, prioritize the most important ones. This is my theory why fundies are 1-2 item voters but progressives are not.

[Dangerman]

59. Who gives a damn about "moral values"

I am looking for a job, my family is in financial crisis and we are selling our home in two years! And all you repukes care about is "MORAL VALUES?!?"

[mahina]

60. Georgetown public policy forum: reframe political issues as values issues,

and we will win. I love CSPAN!

[PATRICK]

62. Watched CBS more in one night than I had in twenty years

It is not a credible news source. Some hope for the National Enquirer except they are fixated on trashing Democrats and liberal movie stars.

Watching incompetence morph seamlessly into guileless collusion, the old clueless Rather rigid with caution and ignorance, wasn't infuriating or painful anymore.

I hope never to see them again for the next twenty years or any TV or any radio a la NPR or Clear Channel. Or their websites. Or their popups and sponsors popups. The Pied Pipers sound shitty. They can make the other rats dance for a change. Their shameful self exposure reveals their failure going back decades. Shallow, self important ritual, puff ratings.
Fear, lies, inanity. And no money going in or out of the news department of the big glutted corporations. And the Dems respect this as a national forum? They are brainwashed.

[Junkdrawer]

65. Rove knew the HUGE turnout would need some 'splaining...

so they pumped up the Fundies from 10-20% tops all the way up to 40% plus. He did it in the final weeks when the Dem registration drives became apparent.

Stolen. Stolen right in front of our lying eyes.

[sffreeways]

104. Exactly

You've explained the moral values nonsense perfectly. Now I hope those DU'ers that blamed the gay community and called them "selfish" and proclaimed "they didn't care about John Kerry only themselves" are hanging their empty heads in desperate shame. I lost a whole lot of respect for a whole lot of democrats on this site on Wed.

Pfffft only care about themselves. I never thought I'd see something so offensive here. In the 4 years I've been posting here I've never...NEVER been so ashamed of my party.

The GLBT community volunteers, donates, contributes even to a candidate that was clear about his position on their civil rights very clear about his position about their desire to live the American dream like he can.

Again they sacrificed their own interests for the good of the nation and overwhelmingly voted for John Kerry. Gays worry about someone else's kids dying in Iraq. Some have children but most do not. Gays are concerned with the education of someone else's children. Gays on average do well economically but they care about working families with children, single mothers, people needing welfare, after school programs, a womens right to choose an abortion an act most gays and lesbians will never need to choose. They pay school taxes to educate children they are told they are unfit to have of their own or untrustworthy to teach or adopt. Some homosexuals are parents but many are not yet most are democrats even though their party does not support their full pursuit of their constitutional guarantee to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And who are the child molesters ? Why the same folks that claim moral values were their reasons for voting for Bush. 1 in 4 children are molested in this country by a heterosexual family member before the age of twelve. Many are sexually assaulted by priests and ministers the "moral values" voters.

What a sinister and perfectly evil strategy was employed here. To turn the party they have been so dedicated to against them by having it appear as though it's their fault Kerry lost. A double edge sword. Alienate the gay vote by fooling democrats into believing they lost for defending their homosexual compatriots. Because the Gays pushed their selfish agenda. Drive them from the party and the party looses the millions of gay votes and the hundreds of thousands of committed and loyal volunteers. Not only do they hate them but now they have engineered a way for their own party to loathe them as well.

They stole the damn thing again just as we knew they would. That they would loose seemed so impossible many of us here expected an attack and suspension of the right to vote before they let John Kerry win. They had way too much to loose. Hell, the potential for being exposed as having known about the attacks on 9/11 ? Huh !

Moral values my ass, they needed a way to cover up the disparity and naturally many Americans would believe the hatred of homosexuals would
motivate the masses. Even those of us that support our gay and lesbian friends and family could believe the hatred toward them would be more important than jobs, the economy, the war to the opposition and even to those in our own party. Only it's not true. John Kerry is our President just as Al Gore was our last President. And the effort by the Gay community helped them win but those that hate them helped them cheat.

We are left with one question. How far will we be willing to go now that we know how far they are willing to go.

Shame on those democrats here and all over America that believed the lie and turned their rage on such loyal, gentle, selfless and kind friends

And to the person that announced that Gavin Newsom handed the election to Bush, you are no liberal, you have no principle, no pride, and no idea about what is right and good and just. You probably would have said the same of Martin Luther King. I'll never understand or remotely respect a human being so shallow.

[SoCalDem]

66. Bush mandate is 136K votes in Ohio,,,,that is ALL

The (fraudulent?) extra Popular votes are just icing on the cake.. 136K more in Ohio, makes the election Kerry 286 and the blathering bubbleheads on tv would be saying.......It's NOT about moral values..it;s about the economy/Iraq...etc..

The mandate is 136K votes that Kerry did NOT get in Ohio..(Or DID he?)

[Laughing Mirror]

86. Minus those 155,000 provisional (Dem?) ballots

that will be tossed out by Secretary of State Blackwell because, well, that's what you do if you're the one counting the votes and they are not in your favor.

[foo_bar]

68. if they polled "ethical values" Kerry would be 80-20

It's like gay marriage versus Gay Marriage.

[Laughing Mirror]

87. Ethical?

Never heard the word. What's that?

[foo_bar]

90. tastes like chicken

[jamesinca]

69. Maybe it is morals

Then maybe it is not morals. It could be they are sending us on a snipe hunt or wild goose chase or just framing the argument so we as progressives chase it instead of the real issue. The election was lost for a multitude of reasons and they need to be addressed.

If it is morals that we lost on then I say we who are church going start going to the Bible studies and spread the word, become more involved in the church. We can take the religious vote back. If we hold onto the notion that church and politics don't go together then we are not living in USA '04. Like it or not, I think that is a reality in this country today. Progressives, liberals and democrats are not immoral or amoral. What we are is silent on the issue. If you go to church then host or attend a Bible study and make it relevant to todays society by bringing up political issues. It will help people understand how God is important in their life today and the need for the Democrats until they meet their maker.

We put a lot of hope in the young voter this time. They did show up at the usual 10%. Unfortunately that does not seem like a good return on the investment. We need to continue to register them, and keep them informed on the Democratic issues. Over time if they stay with the party we will have a huge increase in the active voter rolls. They are registered now, but we need to groom them to hold the party message and to run for office. You can get a lot of years out of an 18 year old. We need to get them involved in the local elections. They need to start running for student body president while in college. They need to start running for positions at the Democrat party offices. They need to run for city council and county supervisor seats. Before you know it you have a 30's something that is running for a state or federal representative position that has the experience to do it. They are not the power at the ballot box that you need, but they are the political capital of the future. The republicans have spent at least 4 decades building up the juggernaut that they have. We have the young vote and we have the old vote, but republicans have the group of people who 4 decades ago were 18.

I think a big reason that we lost this election is because we allowed them to tell us what the issue was. Was this election about the war on terror? They told us it was and we happily went down that path talking about how we would make America safer. On Tuesday it suddenly became morals. But looking back on it they had been laying that ground work for awhile. Bush has advisers that do nothing but focus on the different religious groups. Bush went to see the Pope for photo op purposes only! We need to invest in our political future with the 18-29 demographic. We need to take away the moral/religious argument by getting involved at the churches. But mostly we need to frame the argument. We need to make them defend their poor choices. If they are on the defensive, they do not have time to state their position they only have time to defend. How much time was spent on the Swift boats thing? During that whole thing did we as a party put out a position on the economy? If we did it was greatly overshadowed by the defense of the Swift boat attacks. We need to define the argument. We need to speak in bullet points. We need to invest in the future. With the dumb-assification of America small sentences and small words are what is on the menu for awhile.

[Tight_rope]

70. Moral and Values my ass. Is that why Housewifes is the #1 show in US

[kwolf68]

93. Bingo

It's capitalism meets morals.

"One Nation Under God" my ass. If that was the case, the filth on TV wouldn't be there. But it is there, well...because people want filth and shallow hedonism.

Sorry fundies...if you really want to clean the earth you will have to do more than Fuck with RvW...you will have to go head-to-head with the corny capitalists who run this shithole world.

I'm breaking out the popcorn for that war.

[jacksonian]

71. they see not what they do

Rove's view of religion in the political world will have us all lining up church vs. church - even with a pagan Dem party you still have Repug primaries.

As someone said, you bring in religion to sanctify politics, all you end up with is cheapened religion.

[blondeatlast]

81. "Cheapened religion." Exactly. I try to explain to DUers why I DON'T

allow my spiritual beliefs to cross into my political ones, but they never seem to get it.

That sums it up nicely, IMHO.

The two must stay ENTIRELY separate, in my government and in my private life.

[jamesinca]

84. People will not give up their religion, or their political party

They might, but it will be a fight. I think we must get involved in the conversations in the congregations and let the people see and hear the teachings in the Bible. Let them see that Republicans don't stand for those teachings. One of three things will happen 1) Their head will figuratively explode. 2) They will give up on the republicans and keep their religion or 3)They will give up on Jesus because he is teaching things not in line with the republican party.

It does not have to be shoved down peoples throat. It does not even have to be done outside of church. It just needs to be done. I don't think you will cheapen the religion any, I think you will clean the bad seed out and expose it for what it is. This in turn will help heal the wounds that people like Roy Moore, Gary Bauer and Ralph Reid have caused to the church. With that group out of the mix, we can have separation in this country again.

[moondust]

72. "Moral values" are why

millions of people took to the streets in record numbers to protest the unprovoked all-out invasion of Iraq (and preemptively the slaughter of 100,000+ innocent Iraqi bystanders).

Where are the "moral values" in brutally ending the lives of those 100,000+ innocent Iraqi bystanders and maiming many thousands of others without justification?

"Moral values" are why billions of people on this planet are currently in a state of shock and awe to learn that so much of the U.S. has phony moral values or none at all.

"Moral values" are what motivated John Kerry to speak the truth to power before a senate panel 33 years ago and millions of others to take to the streets to stop another filthy, unjust, immoral war.

Where are the "moral values" in rich men who have never risked a hair on their stinking hides sending poor men and women to risk their lives on a daily basis without justification, adequate equipment, or a plan to get them out?

Yes, let's talk about "moral values" but not waste time on the dimestore variety that you wear on your sleeve to show your local morality police how self-righteous you are.

[bullimiami]

82. i see your moral values bush

every word a prevarication
murder
torture
rape
war
destroy the environment
destroy the economy
steal
cheat
misuse of religion for personal gain and power


you are the walking goddamned antichrist.

[riffraff_va]

89. What do they mean?

When I hear conservative say that "America is going back to the good ol days", I get very afraid. Do they mean back x number of years ago when a women couldn't go to work or the children kicked out of school because they wore pants? Do they mean back when police could beat the crap out of a black person without being interrogated? Do they mean back in the day when it was OK to sexual harass women in the workplace? Do they mean when segregation was legal? I want to know what do they mean by that!

As far as America future goes, 42% of Americans are either pessimistic or afraid of the future of America under the presidency of George W. Bush. WOW!! That's almost half of Americas doubt a good future. Isn't that the biggest number of people either pessimistic or afraid of America's future since The Great Depression(and don't be surprised if we have another one during this administration).

[Ol Sugar Coat]

83. We can change the intolerant attitudes in this country but it'll take

someone like Joseph Welch to stand up to the McCArthys of today ... someone will have to stand before Marilyn Musgrave and ask her point blank on national television: "Have you no sense of decency, Madame?" We need to shame and embarass those who would jump on the bigotry bandwagon. Marilyn Musgrave is the new Joe McCarthy. She sees not just biblical immorality in homosexuality - she sees an enemy of her AMERIKKKA that must be contained and marginalized by any means necessary. She is public enemy #1, IMHO

[Liberal Gramma]

91. Here's their plan:

"Moral" issues is a blind to cover the stolen election. If we fall for it, there are two consequences beneficial to the right wing: we won't question the voter fraud, and when we move further to the right to capture the fundie votes, there truly won't be any difference between the parties and the RWs win either way. I say to hell with their moral issues.

[greyXstar]

92. moral values???

It's just like tight_rope said, a show like Desperate Housewives doesn't get to #1 because we care so much about "Christian" morals.

No, I'm sorry...hate and fear are not true Christian morals. Those are the "morals" of the few extremists who have managed to become the loudest voice of their religion. Just like the Taleban.

[Mugsy]

94. It's not that Moral voters were common. It's that Bush got most of them.

In the NYT today, Conservative talking head David Brooks tried to "debunk the myth that Evangelicals pushed Bush over the top".

He said that many non-Evangelical Kerry voters voted on this same ground, artificially inflating the number to appear as if more Right-Wingers voted.

The problem with Brooks' "analysis" is that "a majority of Bush voters" said they were voting on moral grounds. Whether they be Evangelical or not is beyond the point. As I said in a previous post, what moral values of Bush's did they most like? The killing? The depriving mothers of prenatal care? Abu Ghraib? Plunging 8 million people into poverty? 27 million people with no health insurance?

Yes, I too might have said "moral values" had I been asked, but the problem is that so many "Bush voters" gave this same reason, and THAT is what is so disturbing.

[regnaD kciN]

107. David Brooks is trying to undo the damage the fundies are causing...

If that particular talking head (who gets his orders straight from G.O.P. headquarters -- remember how he tried to start last year's meme that the Democrats were consumed with "Bush-hating"...?), is trying to debunk the "'moral values' decided the election" claim, it only confirms my suspicion that the Repug leadership is scared to death that they will come to be seen as the Fundie Party.

Tough. If they want to separate themselves from the Talibornagain, let's tie them together even tighter!

:spank:

[Mike Johnson]

98. It's an easy out

A lot of voters went for Bush. If you could get them to be honest with you -- and themselves -- they'd admit they have misgivings about how he's fighting (or abandoning) the war on terror. They don't want us to pull out of Iraq, but they think it was probably a mistake. And they know President Bush is hurting the economy.

So why did they vote for Bush? For one thing, we're at war. More importantly, they want desperately to believe Bush & Cheney when they spin about how great things are going. But they'll never admit to that.

When you can't defend your vote on anything concrete, you say it was about Values. That's all.

[savistocate]

99. Moral Values/FamilyValues -broken familys of dead

soldiers, as well as wounded and changed mentally & emotionally (suicides) of those surviving, this doesn't count for these high morals creatures.

That's only the American side--true figure of dead 3500 adding those who die of their wounds in hospitals, 10,000+ wounded.

[Ann Arbor Dem]

100. The Michigan GOP is using the "moral values" schtick to oust Gov Granholm

...and Senator Debbie Stabenow. They've said it up front. We will not let them win.

[PurityOfEssence]

102. Yes, whatever we do, we can't let it be known that they won on hate.

You KNOW that's what they're afraid of. They'll do anything to make it seem like they won on steadfast leadership, confidence in the economy, patriotic banding together against an evil enemy or whatever the fuck you want to call Iraq, but it must not, at all costs, be known that crackpot haters in a frothing intoxication with god demanded the right to hate and subjugate sinners.

It's like when Hess flew to Scotland: Hitler was deathly concerned that the people would think the whole leadership was insane.

[regnaD kciN]

106. A little malarky of its own...

While the commentary starts out debunking the "moral values" canard, it concludes by saying that, while not decisive, it is an important group, and Democrats cannot win until they stop presenting themselves as anti-"moral values" (i.e. by promoting "deeply unpopular" issues such as gay marriage), and that criticizing the right's moral values in return (as in "there's nothing moral about killing thousands in a deceptive war") is a sure-fire losing strategy.

To me, that's just the same old same old, and I agree with Chris Bowers at MyDD.com that this sort of defensiveness is precisely the wrong approach. The fact that 22% of those voting last time were "moral values" religious-right types (actually quite a bit less, since only four-fifths of those who cited that concern actually voted for Bush -- the actual breakdown is 17.6% Bush, 3.96% Kerry, for a differential of 13.64% to Bush) means that at least 78% of those voting don't share that concern. The rush by the fundie movement to claim credit for the election, and use it as their own "political capital" not only to push this country far to the right, but to try to impose Christian Reconstructionism (jettisoning our laws in favor of a Christianized Torah) on the country as a whole is deeply worrying to many in that 78%, and they thus have a negative opinion of the "moral values" crowd to begin with. We need to take advantage of that. The best defense is a good offense, and we should not hesitate to portray the Talibornagain as extremist, frightening, and un-American (those Christians among us might also want to consider making the obvious point that they are deeply un-Christian as well), and portray the Republicans as totally in thrall to them. Let's capitalize on the rising negative feelings toward the "religious reich." But treating them with kid gloves, fearing to offend them, and trying to re-make or re-present ourselves as fundie-friendly is both futile and the real losing strategy.