Nader off ballot in Pennsylvania, Missouri

[quaoar]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1093860427868&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724

HARRISBURG, Pa. — Ralph Nader's bid to be listed as an independent candidate on Pennsylvania's presidential ballot was rejected today by a judicial panel that said he had forfeited the right by accepting the nomination of the national Reform Party.

Pennsylvania law prohibits a person who is affiliated with a political party from running as an independent.

The three-judge Commonwealth Court panel dismissed Nader's argument that the ban applied only to Pennsylvania residents.


< snip >

Separately, officials in Missouri said today that Nader won't be on the presidential ballot there.

[David Zephyr]

1. Good News.

Ralph's a zero now in my eyes. Zero.

[vickie]

2. This is very good news.

[fujiyama]

3. Hell Yes!

Fuck him. Some polls were showing PA tightening again. MO has also been very close.

[wildeyed]

4. hah! take that ralphie. n/t

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. They will still report Nader with 2% none the less.

[revree]

6. NADER OFF HIS ROCKER EVERYWHERE ELSE.

I used to like this guy, but he just seems really scary lately.

[Moloch]

7. This is wonderful news....

Nader's an egomaniac and his voters are naive (like I was when I voted for him in 2000)

[MidwestTransplant]

8. I was actually thinking that having Nader on the ballot may harm Bush

as much as Kerry. There are plenty of people out there that hate Bush but won't vote for Kerry (disenchanted Republicans). With Nader on the ballot, they will be able to make a protest vote for somebody they have heard of. If they show up to vote and no Nader on the ballot, they may be more likely to hold their noses and vote for Bush.

I agree that it's better to not have Nader on the ballot though.

[Buck Rabbit]

15. Do you think people feel they must vote on every ballot issue?

This is a question not a statement. I always skip and leave blank any race on a ballot where I am not comfortable with either candidate. I don't want to validate either one with my vote. But I wonder how many people feel compelled to select a lessor of 2 evils on every section of their ballot?

Why would a Republican, even a disenchanted one, feel voting for someone like Nader who they would disagree with on 90% of all issues would be preferable to just writing in "Mickey Mouse" as a protest?

[MidwestTransplant]

43. I think people do

It's kind of like taking a test...the natural inclination is to answer every question.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

9. YES! and YESSSS!!!!!!!!!

This is great great news! Big MO is doable now IMHO!

[SayitAintSo]

10. YES !!!!!!

Yee haw !!!

[xyboymil]

11. Awesome! Bush is also losing in Michigan which means he must

win Ohio and Wisconsin to make up for some of the loss in PA and Michigan.

Pressures on Bush! Yes! :evilgrin:

[beyurslf]

12. Excellent news!

[Gothmog]

13. Drop out Ralph, Please drop out

Great news. I keep hoping that Ralph will see the light and drop out. I loved it when Bill Maher and Michael Moore both got on their knees to get Ralph to drop out.

[MaineDem]

14. It's questionable in Maine right now, too.

Challengers press case over Nader petitions


AUGUSTA, Maine — Maine´s secretary of state opened a public hearing Monday on challenges to independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader´s clearance for Maine ballots in November.

Challengers include the chairwoman of the Maine Democratic Party, Dorothy Melanson.

The secretary of state´s office has certified 4,128 voter signatures for Nader _ 128 more than the minimum needed for ballot listing. Challengers have raised questions about the way signatures were obtained and indicated they may press their case signature by signature.

http://news.mainetoday.com/apwire/D84PPG080-242.shtml

[Green Lantern]

16. I am so sorry to see

the DP trying to silence the voices of others. It is a sad critique on the day.

[kiahzero]

19. God forbid they challenge illegal petitions

God forbid they call the Republican Party out on their attempt to divide the left.

:eyes:

[Green Lantern]

23. Curious, isn't it

that the DP and RP candidates are only challenged in an election, either the main event or a primary. Should be the same for all candidates. It is a biased system, with the major parties trying to make decisions for the rest of us that should be made at the ballot box.

God forbid a candidate not of your liking wishes to run. God forbid I have the opportunity to vote my conscience and principles.

God forbid we think only the RP is trying to divide the left and take my vote away.

[LisaL]

24. If you let everybody run

You will have 3 thousand people running.
It will be a circus, just like Ca governor election, only much worse.
That's why you have to follow certain rules to be allowed on the ballot.
And Nader clearly can't follow them.

[Green Lantern]

27. Sorry

I was under the mistaken belief that the US Constitution set the basic standards for running for President.

[kiahzero]

26. It's not an issue that I, or the Dems, don't like Nader

It's the fact that he's breaking the law in order to get on the ballot. And it's the fact that he's not either a moron, and oblivious to the way the Republicans are using him, or he's running a cynical race to destroy the Democratic Party. Either way, I feel no sympathy for Nader, nor do I for anyone foolish enough to buy into his lies.

[Green Lantern]

28. I would sooner

buy into Nader's idealism than the cynacism of the DLC.

[kiahzero]

31. Idealism?

Allowing yourself to be used by people who stand for everything you claim to be against... that's now defined as "idealism?"

Interesting.

[Green Lantern]

34. I hardly can believe

that allowing the DP to use me is any better, can you? Especially since the DP is headed down the same trail the RP is. Follow the money, follow the money.

[kiahzero]

35. Same trail?

Riiight. The Democratic Party is big on amending the Constitution to deny fundamental human rights. And it's big on starting wars against nations that are no threat like Iraq, and ignoring real crises like Sudan. And the Democratic Party actively works to fuck over the environment.

Same trail my ass.

[Green Lantern]

37. Riiight

you are. Let's see-Clinton and welfare reform ring a bell. Kerry supporting the process in Iraq and going the distance with israel. I have yet to see action on Sudan.

Rights?-How about the protestors pens in Boston?

What happened with Kyoto? Where are the Dems on the International Court-oh that's right, Clinton refused to sign it also. Hmmm. How about the land mine Treaty. Oh yeah, seems that one slipped through also.

Want to talk Patriot Act? Don't need to amend the Cons with that now do we? And of course it was opposed unamimouisly by the DP folks in Congress.

The record goes on and on. Money issues? Seems I recall hearing that Linda Daschle is one of the bigger, more important LOBBYISTS in DC. Hmmmm
Money? How about support of tax breaks and corporate welfare? Where do we look to see DP support of publicly financed federal elections?

Environment? Hoiw come Exxon-Mobil is still footdragging over the Valdez?
Superfund dry? Wonder why? CAFE standards? Hmmmm.

Wanna keep going?

[quaoar]

40. Four words

Chief Justice Clarence Thomas

[Green Lantern]

41. Now that is a truly frighteneing concept but

I thought Scalia had dibs?


It has made me curious tho-four years ago we all heard that two or three Justices would be retiring so a Repug would be naming a replacement. Hasn't happened. Do you think they regret the "selection" yet? Could that be why we are seriously lacking vacancies?

[quaoar]

44. They can't live forever

Justices tend to hang on as long as they can, regardless of the occupant of the White House.

Thomas has been floated recently as the new Chief Justice -- I think they believe he would be easier to get confirmed than Scalia. Plus, he's a lot younger.

I don't know if they regret the appointment of Bush. They've certainly had a few years to read all the scholarly articles mocking their decision as one of the worst in the history of the court.

[belle]

46. Stevens is in his eighties. He's hung in there for a REASON, but

he can't hold on forever.

Are you for real, or are you just trolling? I honestly can't tell with you people.

[Green Lantern]

57. With you people?

I am not a Dem. I am a Green. I am here to learn more about Kerry before I make a decision on my vote. Ok? Don't know if that helps or not. But when I have my buttons pushed, I respond.

[kiahzero]

42. I don't have time to address all of these now

I'll just address the one's I'm immediately familiar with:

Clinton welfare reform: A negative, certainly, but better than what the Republicans would have done.

Kerry "supporting the process in Iraq": Kerry supported inspections, but did not support the war.

Action on Sudan: The Senate passed a unanimous resolution calling the actions in Sudan "genocide" and calling for action.

"Protest pens" in Boston: 1) This was the city of Boston and the Secret Service, not the DNC; 2) The "pen" was just for protestors who wanted to be within sight of the actual convention hall - protests were allowed in the streets of Boston.

USA PATRIOT Act: Kerry has called for the repeal of the unconstitutional portions of the USA PATRIOT Act (sneak and peek searches, no judicial review, etc)

Daschle as lobbyist: I don't know anything about this, but following your logic, because Mary Cheney is gay, the Republican Party must be the party of gay rights - not to mention Mary Matalin and James Carville being an irresolvable paradox.

Tax breaks: What's wrong with tax breaks for the middle class? Bush shifted the tax burden from the rich to the middle class with his tax cut.

Corporate Welfare: I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to here - if it's the Kerry plan to limit outsourcing, it's using the tax code to promote positive behavior by corporations, rather than negative.

Publically financed elections: I fail to see how a lack of support for this idea is indicative of being on the "same trail" as the Republicans.

Environment: Are you seriously suggesting that Kerry is equivalent to Bush on the environment?

[Green Lantern]

58. Thanks for the info on Sudan

I have heard Kerry speak on both sides of Iraq and funding. I am still of the overall opinion that he is supporting this.

The whole Patriot Act should be repealed and thoroughly revisited in extensive public debate which never occurred. Would be nice. Too many DP seats in Congress never spoke out.

I cite Daschle as a clear example of the revolving door and access to our politicos. See "Pigs at the Trough"-extensive documentation about both RP and DP practitioners of the dark art of lobbying.


Tax breaks for the middle class would be fine but won't happen-too much corporate backing which would prevent it. The entire tax burden has been shifted from corporations and the wealthy to the shrinking middle class. I think it is time to do a significant re-write of the tax code based on equity and justice.

Copporate welfare includes, but is not limited to, payng no taxes, to receiving tax refunds on taxes not paid. (approx 70% of all US corps pay no taxes to the gov't at all) In July 2003, the IRS announced that it took in about $517.8 Billion from individual taxpayers, and about $65 billion from corporations.
Subsidies for overseas advertising by corps underwritten by taxpayers. Subsidies for outsourcing jobs. Special laws, tax breaks, environmental byes, etc etc etc. I can continue if you wish-needed to get to bed and just lumped, assuming all would understand. Sorry about that. I could write about many more such items and can give book citations for same. The corporate power confronting us now will not allow a substantial change in the tax process. They have been working on the tax sdhift to the middle class since about 1960. (article in NYT in that era noted the middle class as a great new source of tax revenue. Corporate leaders saw the potential to make the shift and have done so. This has not been a battle of Herculean proportion, but rather a death by the middle class of a thousand deaths.)

Publicly financed elections-removes the ability of special interests to influence unduly any legislation they have an interest in.

Thanks. I appreciate the dialogue. Helps make up my mind.

[belle]

45. zzzzzzzzz

[Cheswick2.0]

51. Why? Isn't Ralph subject to the law?

I am curious as to why you think Ralph Nader should be allowed a free pass to break the law?
If he had enough support to be on the ballot he would have enough signitures. Not every crack pot in the country can get on the ballot. If there weren't requirements then the ballot would be thousands of pages long.

[AlFrankenFan]

17. Forgive me for rejocing

:crazy:

[TheDonkey]

18. Poor Nader

if he wasn't such an egotistic idiot I'd feel bad.

[AnewerWay]

20. Sad that we need to lock people out of democracy to win the election

I don't feel good about preventing ANYONE from running for President.

[LisaL]

21. dupe

[LisaL]

22. It looks to me

that Nader broke the rules.
The rules are you can't run if you are nominated by two Parties at the same time.
What does it have to do with preventing anyone from running for president?
You have to follow rules, otherwise, you will have everybody and you crazy uncle running for president.

[Hobarticus]

25. Also, looks to me like Nader made his own bed.

He could have worked within the Democratic party to achieve his goals, which certainly are admirable, and six months ago he could've written his own ticket in the DNC if he wanted to. But his massive ego tripped him up. I admired the man until he made it clear that he was perfectly willing to risk putting Bush back in the White House for another four years, and thus trashing everything that his principles (and of millions of other progressives) stand for and fight for, in order to make his point. Cast him upon the rubbish heap of failed blowhards.

[Cheswick2.0]

52. he's not just willing to risk four more for bush

He is actively working to that end.

[Green Lantern]

30. The rules Nader broke were

only those put into place by the RP and DP who fear losing their place at the table.

The "rules" are designed to be barriers to competition, not rules for access.

We already have a method for determining access. It is called an election.

You already have everyone and his crazy uncle running in the primaries. That is where you sort them out. (see New Hampshire every 4 years)

If your party can't win my vote, oh well. Your problem. But if you try to force me to vote for your candidate by railroading one I might vote for off the ballot, are you truly supporting democracy? How is that different from the communists in the old Soviet Union running one candidate and calling it democracy?

If you are afraid of the loss of our support, then win us over with your arguments. If you fear the loss of the election, galvanize your own people to vote. Recover support from labor by supporting labor. Do it right and win your old base back, not with lip service platitudes but with real promises you act on in a timely fashion. Do it wrong and wonder where we all went.

[quaoar]

32. If Nader wants to run for president

as an independent, then he has to follow the rules just like everyone else. Should we suspend the rules in his case just because his name is Ralph Nader? Should we just wink when he turns in petitions with illegally obtained signatures?

Nader had the option, just like every other citizen, to run for a party's nomination. He could have run for the Green Party's nomination, but chose not to.

He made his bed. Now he should lie in it.

[Green Lantern]

36. Once again,

those rules you find so compelling are those written to limit access to the ballot by independents and third party candidates.

How about supporting a rules convention written by all interested parties? One that all have a stake in, not just the entrenched institutions?

[quaoar]

39. Fine

If the rules suck so much, let's change them and make them fair. But those are the rules in place right now. Should Nader be allowed to skirt them now?

[Cheswick2.0]

54. prove it

prove that these rules were written in to discriminate against third party candidates.
There were put in place by the states to limit the number of candidates who could get on the ballot.

BTW, the DP and the RP are subject to the same rules.

[Green Lantern]

59. Actually they are not, not in this state anyway.

The RP and DP candidates get an automatic bye.

The rules have been repeatedly used to remove third parties from legitimate ballot access. green Party history in Maine supports this. Check it out.

[LisaL]

33. You could argue

that rules need to be changed.
But Nader clearly broke the rules which are here and now.
It's not his first election, is it?
Why did he accept the nomination from 2 parties when he knew it is against the rules in some states?

[Green Lantern]

38. Perhaps he did, maybe he didn't

The courts will sort it all out long after the election. And maybe we will get some fair rules for non-major party candidates.

I think it arguable that the RP and DP also broke rules regarding issues surrounding the Cobb-LaMarche run. But I guess that is not open for discussion.

[Cheswick2.0]

53. What rules would those be?

[belle]

47. Yes, very idealistic. That's very nice. Meanwhile,

the current "president" and his administration is doing his best to get rid of the Constitution altogether, have you noticed? "Faith-based" ring any bells? John Ashcroft? Patriot Act? Patriot II? Guantanamo? Are you aware that the Patriot Act currently has sunset provisions built into it? Are you aware that Bush is doing his damndest to make sure they are *not* allowed to expire?

The two-party system may not be fair, but it's been pretty much as it is since, well, since the beginning of the voting system in this country. If you have somewhere else to live--from your arguments here it sounds a bit like Cloudcuckooland--that's very nice for you. Most of us have to live here, in this very imperfect and real system, in this very flawed and real country. It's what we've got. Ten weeks. And a candidate who *isn't* a profoundly stupid, black-and-white thinking, fundamentalist whose cabinet looks like the peanut gallery from Dick Tracy and acts like the chorus from "Springtime for Hitler." Who can actually write a complete sentence for himself. Who's done some excellent work on the environment. Who voted against DOMA. Who doesn't thinkl that "a dictatorship would be aheck of a lot easier, just so long as he's the dictator." Who can actually work 8with* people. Who understands the concept of "complexity." But then, perhaps you don't see those last two as assets. Nader certainly doesn't seem to.

Bottom line: look, vote your "conscience" if that makes you feel all pleased with yourself. Just don't expect anything productive to come out of it. And don't expect any sympathy here when *your* rights get trampled into the ground. Because if you think things can't get any worse--honey, you ain't seen nothing yet. And you ain't read much history, either.

[Green Lantern]

60. Golly,

how did I miss all that?

We are much in agreement on the current administration. But cloudcuckooland? You old enough to remember the Nam riots? The first Earth Day? Those were idealistic actions combined with a practical application of power.

I am an idealist. So what? I prefer to reach up rather than settle for the lesser of two evils. Idealism gave us public schools and a Constitution. Pragmatic gave us Bush.

Read history? Seems to be a little off the mark. What history would you suggest?

Sympathy? Didn't expect , nor was I looking for any here. Why should I? The DP has "Gored" Nader. I supported Nader in 2000. Never said I would this time. I just don't see any difference between what happened to Gore in Fla and what Nader is going through now. Fair? Never fair. That is why you set high goals and fight for them. Why settle if you have to fight anyway?

I not only do expect things to get worse if Bushwa returns to DC, it will start right after the swearing in, and if you know anything about history, you can get a blueprint from Mein Kampf or The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. If we are lucky, the lib/prog group will only get Soviet styled re-education camps. That gloomy enough for you? The libs will be first to go.

Oh well-back to cloudcuckooland. Gotta be better than your "sky is always falling" land.

[Hobarticus]

49. Ideals are nice, but wake up.

Our democracy is in greater danger than ever before, people are dying, rights and laws are getting trampled, and you, you alone, want to get 'won over'?

You've got chutzpah, I'll give you that.

[Green Lantern]

61. Probably do at that

but I was speaking in a collective sense. There are Greens and indy prog/libs that drop in here, and we're all waiting to see the battle plan.

Why, if the issues are so significant for you, are you so willing to shoot down potential allies?

[Tight_rope]

66. RALPH NADER BETRAYED HIMSELF.....LAY IN THAT BED NADER!

[Zynx]

55. Stop hiding behind Democracy to protect slime.

Nader is a slimeball and is taking help for the Republican Party to get on the ballot.

[Green Lantern]

62. I happen to support democracy.

It is equally obvious you do not.

[LisaL]

63. I think it's very obvious

that Nader broke the rules in PA by accepting the nomination from 2 parties. But it looks like he was able to get on the ballot in other states because he accepted a nomination from a reform party. So, I presume he got what he wanted by accepting nominations from 2 parties at the same time.

[Green Lantern]

67. An endorsement

is not the same as a nomination.

[Tight_rope]

65. Nader is a self serving prick....who seems to be acting like Bush* more

and more every year. It's his way or he'll take the low end. Well he didn't get his way so he took the low end and decided to kiss Bushs* ass. Nader is a Bush* asslicker. And it backfired on him.

[Rose Siding]

29. That's a huge relief n/t

[Renew Deal]

48. That's great news.

Maybe he can find some republicans to help him out.

[Cheswick2.0]

50. OH happy day!

St Ralph the spoiler shot down again and by MY STATE! Fabulous.

[napi21]

56. GREAT! I'm glad. Now, why doesn't Nader run in a regular Dem

primary, against all the other candidates? Is it because he knows he could never win?

[Tight_rope]

64. hahahahahahahahahaha!.......Those Republicans sure helped him out here!