Pope worries about 'soulless' life in America, urges action

[PfcHammer]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2004-05-28-vatican-us_x.htm

Pope worries about 'soulless' life in America, urges action

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope John Paul II warned several U.S. bishops Friday that American society is in danger of turning against spirituality in favor of materialistic desires, giving way to a "soulless vision of life."

To fight this, the pontiff argued, the U.S. church must study contemporary culture to find a way to appeal to youths. He made his remarks to bishops from Indianapolis, Chicago and Milwaukee who were making a periodic visit to the Vatican.

The American church "is called to respond to the profound religious needs and aspirations of a society increasingly in danger of forgetting its spiritual roots and yielding to a purely materialistic and soulless vision of the world," John Paul said.

"Taking up this challenge, however, will require a realistic and comprehensive reading of the 'signs of the times,' in order to develop a persuasive presentation of the Catholic faith and prepare young people especially to dialogue with their contemporaries about the Christian message and its relevance to the building of a more just, humane and peaceful world."


I thought "The Passion Of the Christ" had already solved this problem. Guess not.

[truthspeaker]

1. Didn't he just promote a child molester? He should just shut up.

I'll take the "soulless" over a child-pimping misogynist any day.

[madmax]

54. Isn't that outrageous??

What is up with that??? He should have been excommunicated or whatever the punishment.

Wish he'd stop harping politicians who support choice. :mad:

[KissMyAsscroft]

2. We cant all be soulfull pedophiles Pope...

Doesn't he have a rap album to make or something?

[DenverDem]

3. Takes one to know one.

Hey, pope boy, remove the beam from your eye before you worry about the speck in ours.

[maddezmom]

4. He should worry about the soul-less Law he just promoted

:eyes:

[maddezmom]

6. and Second wave of claims seen in Boston archdiocese sex abuse cases

http://www.courttv.com/news/2004/0524/abuse_ap.html

[jobycom]

5. OMG! The Pope is an enemy of Freedom! We must liberate the Vatican!!!

no text.

[mom cat]

84. No need to liberate the Vatican. It's already dead.

They just had to close 65 churches in Boston. People are voting with their dollars and their feet. Just as with Bush, there is only so far that you can go with raw power and hypocritical moralizing. The church is it's own worst enemy because it has forgotten it's founder's core values: compassion, gentleness and equality.

[Lorien]

7. Well, I agree with him, in part

though I don't think religion is necessarily the answer. We HAVE become entirely too materialistic in this country. We work too hard to keep up with the accepted "norm"; late model car, McMansion, big screen TV, etc. (though I'm sure DUers in general don't fit the usual mold here). At the same time, half of all Americans live paycheck to paycheck with no savings at all. Combine that with the level of consumer debt in this country, and we have the makings of a real mess. I remember when Oprah used to have shows about living simply, and how one could reconnect with friends and family by doing so. You don't see many shows like that any more, because the corporations won't stand for that kind of message. Greed is good, enough is not enough, but too much is just about right. As long as Americans call themselves consumers first and citizens second, we'll remain a troubled, Prozac laden society.

[Ripley]

10. Yes materialism is too pervasive, but

have you seen the Pope's digs? Golden toilets and marble hallways and the finest silks adorn windows and furniture alongside treasured art from the masters. And he used to ride around in a Mercedes Popemobile.

So, I think he needs to shut up.

[Lorien]

22. I've never believed in killing the messenger

yeah, he could sell a few items in the Vatican and relieve a lot of suffering, but that's not the issue. I don't agree 100% with Al Franken just because he's a liberal, nor do I disagree 100% will Bill O'Reilly just because he's an assh*le. The message was about our troubled American society, and I agree in part with his statement.

[4_Legs_Good]

25. Aren't the Tibetan shrines also draped in gold?

Wealth comes from a 2,000 year history (a lot of it very bad).

I remember I think it was Greeley who said that the Church's assets are priceless, but they're also worthless. The Pope cannot sell the Sistine Chapel. Yes there's gold galore, but is it a sign of wealth or a symbol of the grandeur of God or the religion.

I'm not thrilled by the Vatican being wealthy while parishes are forced to have Mass in the gym, but I think its wealth is often overstated.

Anyway, I agree with Jen6, we should be praising the good and condeming the bad.

david

P.S. I'm so far left, I find Franken a Centrist!

[mulethree]

64. Incan, hindu, sumerian, trojan and egyptian too

The ties of gold to temples seems to go way way way back - easily 6000 years. Seems nearly universal that ancient gods wanted to be brought gold even in cultures where silver and copper were more valuable.

[Lorien]

87. re: P.S.

Me too! :hi:

[Ripley]

27. But the Pope is being hypocritical.

Yes, he has the right to say whatever he wants, but I find him pretty easy to dismiss when he makes statements like this. If he truly wanted to show how people should live without bobbles, why doesn't he live like Mother Theresa did?

[bobthedrummer]

37. During the 1970's The Catholic Church was the world's largest landowner

I'm pretty sure that's a fact. Then there are the secret cults and defiant factions within the Vatican itself. At least they aren't like the lunatic Baptist fundamentalist "Rapture" cult though-they're like Ashcroft The Witchfinder:scared:

[Ripley]

42. Snort!

Ashcroft the Witchfinder....has a great ring to it! :D

[ElectroPrincess]

13. The Pope is Reflecting his True Sentiments

Yes, because we are a tolerant and democratic group of people, it's easy to find fault in the strict moral teachings of The Pope. I have no frustrations or cognitive dissonance issues by proclaiming that I honor The Pope as a Catholic and still disagree with some of his "hard and fast" interpretations.

Believe it or not, he's more on the "liberal souls" side when it comes to humane treatment toward each other. Remember, he didn't pull any punches when Georgie boy sought this war be deemed "just." I'm disappointed at his views on gay marriage but commend him for being against all forms of execution.

If you consider his life experiences and intelligence, he's one truly beautiful soul regardless of the fact that Cardinal Law was given a promotion. His perspective is not fully in-touch with the struggles of everyday life. However, IMO we can't view him as a hypocrite because his actions are all executed with love and good faith.

[4_Legs_Good]

21. I agree. What's he supposed to say anyway?

He sees the church losing ground to the fundamentalists and to the secularists and wants to look into how to change it.

He will find that he has to liberalize things and get Bob Dylan to perform for him more often.

Personally I think it's a great development.

david

[rumguy]

99. Good post - how quickly so many rabid attack dogs on DU forget

that he opposed the war. They just can't wait to get in line and get their licks in...

[mulethree]

32. means to stability?

jobs evaporate, people move, laws change, neighbors are people you argue with about fences. If you buy it and own it then you control it? So what's stable when everything becomes a lease or subscription or license?

I agree that religion is not an answer, that if you define spirituality as connection with friends, family and neighbors then you're on a better track - common ground - rather than driving across town because the local church is obstinate about some relatively meaningless item of doctrine. Take out the doctrine and replace pr/t-eaching with learning thru discussion; take out 75% of the ceremony and take wisdom from 100 books instead of one. More meaning, more understanding, more connection - more and higher spirit.

The other thing would be making people aware of the connections they do have. A union member has interest in a pension fund that invests in a stock index fund that invests in corporations acting against the union members interests. Profit focus is bad, except when it finances your retirement? Privacy protection is good - except when you're saving $2000 a year on your mortgage or you get into a low-risk insurance pool - then privacy is less important.

[BiggJawn]

34. This is true, Jen

"...big screen TV, etc. (though I'm sure DUers in general don't fit the usual mold here). At the same time, half of all Americans live paycheck to paycheck with no savings at all."

I think there may be more DUer's who are in the second group than the first. I am...

But hey, take out a fifth mortgage on your house with Ditech,and you too can let the Bennihana chef cut up your credit cards....(how stupid)

The corporations control the media. What you noticed with Oprah and her not doing the simple living shows anymore (wish I could have seen those) is going on everywhere. You can't find news about food or consumer safety anymore without having to wade through a ton of crap from some "industry council" that's screaming "Perfectly safe! Junk Science! that's what the warnings are, Junk Science!"

Makes me wonder how much Bayer paid to have the "news" about aspirin and cancer balyyhooed around.....

Anyway, what this has to do with an old Polish guy in Rome trying to tell me how to live I don't know...

Maybe as a culture, we'd be better off without a "soul". Then we'd have to take responsibility for our OWN actions, instead of going "Oops, God's will, better luck NEXT life..."

[llmart]

56. I agree with you on this one...

but Oprah??? Have you ever seen her "Favorite Things" section in her magazine? Who the hell has the kind of money to buy those items? She doesn't set a very good example for living simply.

And as for the Pope, he's no better than the Bushes. They know how to lecture others but don't have a clue what "real" people live like. Besides, doesn't he know that it's "patriotic" to shop 'til you drop?

I practice voluntary simplicity myself. And yes, I have a lot of savings and no debt. I preach voluntary simplicity whenever I can.

[Lorien]

89. Operative words on Oprah is "used to"

She used to have the authors of a great book called "your money or your life" on her program fairly regularly, but they seem to have been replaced by those "favorite things" shows where she gives away overpriced luxury goods to screaming, greed filled, well heeled middle aged women. It's disgusting. :-(

[Piperay]

62. I do too

people here want to find happiness in material goods instead of finding it in better simple things, the whole goal here is to acumulate things. The problem is the more you acumulate the less happy you are because you never feel satisfied and you continue to try again and again. People end up trapped in a pile of things that they have no place or need for. Instead of calling for sacrific and pulling together after 9-11 chimp told everyone to do the 'patriotic' thing and go shopping. :-(

[Lorien]

90. I saw a program on PBS once called "Affulenza"

they examined elements of human fulfillment and happiness, and concluded that there are three things in particular that give us both: 1.) Love and relationships with others 2.) Contact with nature 3.) Personal creative endeavors (this doesn't just mean art, music, etc...it could be something like teaching or volunteer work). For the most part, these activities cost little or even nothing.

[maxsolomon]

78. OBL said the same thing

its why they hate us, in case you were wondering.

[Lorien]

91. Well in that case, I'd better go out and shop 'til I drop!

wouldn't wanna think like a terraist, right? :eyes:

There is that little matter of our troops in Saudi Arabia. That ain't too popular with that element, either.

[Astarho]

102. I agree with you

We are too materialistic, and underneath it all there is a great emptyness. Some people try to fill it with things, (I'll feel better if I can just get that flat screen TV or the new Hummer) working hard to get the money to buy those things. Others try to cover it up with drugs (legal and illegal), others give in to nihilism. And some try ti fill it with religion (the fundies).

Until we are willing to re-examine their lives (something most do not want to do) things will not change.

[LiberalFighter]

105. Does he want all of his followers to contribute most of their wealth...

to his church?

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. I will get behind this as soon as Mr Pope

sends home his servants, sells the artwork and lavish furnishings, works a regular job and lives in a tract home.

Otherwise he can save his fucking advice for somebody else.

[Tellurian]

9. Perhaps, the reason the Church just announced the closing of 65 churches

in the state of Massachusetts, the other day.

[sophie996]

11. the church is imploding

precisely because it has lost sight of the "Christian message and its relevance to the building of a more just, humane and peaceful world."

[wildwww2]

14. Yes,they are too busy trying to remove rights of females in the USA.

I hope the other so called christian institutions implode too. Bu$h Inc. can implode first BTW.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[shrike]

15. Nah

I'm an old broad, and I've heard this before: "the church is imploding." Never happen.

[4_Legs_Good]

26. Agreed, people have been saying that for 2,000 years

[sophie996]

60. Never happen?

I'm an old broad, too, and there's never been anything like the current media glare.Child abuse used to be kept secret.I don't think any institution can withstand the exposure of its darkest secrets for long.

[shrike]

69. Ever heard of the Inquisition?

How about the Dark ages? Or Henry VIII

[Warpy]

12. TRANSLATION

"Get those damned women back under control!!!!!"

[ElectroPrincess]

29. Yah, you have a point there but ...

No WOMAN is more empowered and in-control than an intelligent Nun with the grade/middle/high school children in her charge.

Nothing's universal, but most Nuns have my full respect and admiration. In many ways, that are under-appreciated (work ethic, dedication to thier faith, sense of purpose) "Nuns Rock!" :-)

[rumguy]

98. He's talking about materialism, about how it cheapens our lives

It sickens me to see so many on this board just snidely attack his statement.

[struggle4progress]

16. I have to say that I agree with the Pope on this one:

we do need "a more just, humane and peaceful world."

[Endangered Specie]

17. If they ever had stone throwing in glass houses at the Olympics...

Johnny boy oughta compete.

[shrike]

18. Why are there so many Pope threads on DU?

Every time I click on here there's some thread about the Pope. It's obviously most people on here don't like the guy, and that's fine. It's not like with George Bush, where we (hopefully) can run him out of office. Pope's gonna be there whether any of us likes it or not. Best thing you can do is ignore him -- although this forum probably provides a safe place to vent for everybody.

[4_Legs_Good]

23. It's weird.

I get ticked off, though, when people just jump down his and the Church's throat even when they're doing something good.

Subject: Bishop Denies Communion to Vegetarians
Thread: REMOVE THE CHURCH'S TAX EXEMPT STATUS
Thread: DO PEDOPHILES STILL GET COMMUNION
Thread: MAKES ME ASHAMED TO BE CATHOLIC

Subject: Pope refuses to side with Bush, calls him the Anti-Christ
Thread: REMOVE THE CHURCH'S TAX EXEMPT STATUS
Thread: DO PEDOPHILES STILL GET COMMUNION
Thread: TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE
Thread: BEND OVER BUSH - POPE'S GONNA TAKE YOU FROM BEHIND

Subject: Archbishop says bishops who refuse communion are evil
Thread: REMOVE THE CHURCH'S TAX EXEMPT STATUS
Thread: DO PEDOPHILES STILL GET COMMUNION

Can't we praise the good stuff that gets done by the church and condemn the bad stuff? Maybe it's just me, but this all really smacks of bigotry or at least rabid partisanship (in a non-partisan way).

Note: not in response to shrike's post other than that it's strange that these things are so popular.

david

[happynewyear]

35. david, I agree with you

You are dead on right.

I am very sick of all of the Catholic bashing threads on the DU. I find it offensive as a Catholic. I am not a very good one, but I do have a lot of respect for Pope John Paul II.

I bet if you found threads like you cite above re: others persons of other relgions/nationalities, you'd get banned in a flash!

:grr:

[rexcat]

40. The problem I have with the church is the bashing of the Humanists..

and atheists. It is OK to bash us but we say one thing against the "church" and we are labeled anti-catholic bigots. Give me a break!

on edit: there appears to be a lot of hypocrisy with the pope and his minions.

[4_Legs_Good]

50. I'm with you, buuuuuuuut...

My point is that if you (not you, but "you") bash the Church for doing something bad, then you're right to bash! If the Church bashes you for doing something bad, then they're right.

The problem is when you bash the Church for doing nothing or doing something good. It's equally bad when the Church bashes you for doing nothing or doing something good.

As liberals, I'd think that TOLERANCE is one of our top 5 virtuies. Another is level headedness.

I'm Catholic and I will readily bash the Church when it denies Communion to people unless they vote a certain way, when it begs for $ while wasting it on political fightsin which it has no business, when it allows child molestation to run rampant, when it burns pagans, when it charges for indulgences, when it condemns contraception, when it denies overpopulation, etc.

Just like I'll ream atheists when they say "to hell with the earth in 100 years! I won't be here to see it" (granted stupid argument, 'cause I hear it from non-atheists more than atheists), but you get my drift.

Being a bigot of any stripe is bad, whether it's the liberals or the conservatives, or the religious, or the non-religious.

Just my take.

david

[rexcat]

59. I see your point (s) but the catholic church bashes atheists and

humanists because we don't believe in "god". Because we don't believe in a god we are bad, we don't have morals and we are ethically challenged. There is a majority of catholics, and for that matter other Christian sects that agree with the pope that we are "bad", don't have any morals and are ethically challenged. I get so sick of hearing people tell me this crap or "I would never vote for an atheists because __________ (fill in the blank - they have no morals, they don't believe in a god therefore they are no good, etc.....).

If someone wants to believe in a god thats OK with me but don't push it down my throat and don't bash me based on assumptions or because their religious leader told them to think that way.

[4_Legs_Good]

76. I am 100% on board with you. (well 99%)

Anyone bashing you because of what you believe (just so long as it doesn't hurt anyone) is just plain wrong.

I find it very interesting (and perplexing) that most of the atheists/agnostics I know (and it's lots - far more than religious types) tend to be more "moral" than the religious people I know. It's something of a paradox, but secular humanists get a big thumbs up from me! Feel free to kick the ass of anyone who persecutes you for being an atheist. Feel free to give the "Freedom Bird" to anyone who shoves his/her religon down your throat.

And to be honest, I'd be more comfortable with an atheist/agnostic in a political position because they'd tend to be less likely to blur the lines of Church and State.

The 1% I don't necessarily agree with you about is that the Pope, et.al. are calling you bad for not believeing in a "god". The documents of Vatican II state clearly that there are other roads to salvation beside the Catholic Church. Also, Materialism is absolutely distinct from Humanism (at least as far as I understand them).

david

[LiberalFighter]

106. Maybe it's more about believing in people than in god.

Believing in god does not help other people. But believing in people does help other people.

[4_Legs_Good]

55. I'm glad I'm not the only one...

Not only is it often just misplaced, but it's also counterproductive. If we want to alienate all Catholics from the Democratic party, then you've lost a HUGE demographic. It's already sliding because of sinister (IMO) members who are trying to conservatize it, but the majority of Catholics still vote Democratic.

Plus, as I've said, tolerance should be a core liberal view.

Lastly, I'm on board, as I've said, for criticizing the Church when it does something truly bad, but let's look always try to look at things with an open mind.

Something to note:

A post about one Bishop saying gay protesters should be denied communion got well over 100 replies

A post about an Archbishop that said denying Communion was outrageous got 7

david

[ElectroPrincess]

70. Thanks David - From the religious left

Thanks David,

Seem like we only hear the right wing representatives of the Christian faiths in the major news media outlets.

Rhandi Rhodes has it correct: Many religious people follow the New Testament and can easily be classified as progressives or even liberal in their political view.

The difference between the religious right and the religious left is that the left tries (albeit we're all imperfect) to live our faith.

I know that it's hard to understand why a Catholic can be both pro-life and feel comfortable voting for John Kerry. It makes complete sense, IMO, because I believe in the separation of church and state. Further, I accept that not everybody on this earth is Catholic ... remember the Inquisition? (Mel Brooks got it right - "what a show."

My way of helping to prevent young girls and women from seeking abortions is by raising my daughter and influencing her friends to respect themselves first and formost. Also to help provide people who they can seek guidance from BEFORE they confuse sex with love which often results in an unplanned pregnancy.

However, IMO it's wrong to preach "fear and damnation" to young women. That's not respectful and only serves to feed into the religious right-wing's sense of pride. Um, and yes, we all must be aware of Pride being one of the seven deadly sins. Yikes!

[happynewyear]

72. alienation is not good

Especially during an election year. My local parish does not endorse anybody politically. They pray for peace. I don't know what other Catholic churches do, but this is what it is about for me.

I get sick of all of this priest/molester thing. I've been around the Church my whole life and I've never personally known of one. I am not saying they do not exist, but I believe this is all part of the PNAC plan, to destroy the Catholic Church.

I did not see communion thread you refer to. Where I live, the Archbishop is offering help to people recovering from their past, not condemning them for anything, nor denying communion to anyone. The belief tends to be that if you personally feel comfortable receiving communion, then proceed. Otherwise see a priest or simply forget it. It is not a requirement.

I suspect this is how many other Catholics practice as well. The pope is an ideology for the Church. Not all Catholics mimic the pope obviously. He is a fine example of what we all should strive to be as humans being IMO on a spiritual level. He speaks of the "soul", something which has obviously been forgotten sadly enough.

[Bridget Burke]

36. Anti-Catholicism has an old history in this country.

It started with the blue-nosed Puritans, railing against popery. The Know-Nothings hated the Catholic immigrants. Hey, we still have immigrants who are Catholic--and people still hate them. ("They breed like animals. They don't speak English.")

Valid criticism of Church policies can veil the inner Ian Paisley--or Jack Chick.

And how many heads of other denominations live in poverty? Just because the new mega-churches have all the architectural distinction of regional offices of mid-level insurance companies does not mean that they are invexpensive. Or that those churches do more good work.

[shrike]

38. I grew up in anti-Catholic country

Catholics were the Negroes of my community. As were Jews, although there was only one Jew in town and he kept it a secret until after he left.

[SharonAnn]

63. I live in anti-Catholic country.

The long-time residents are very fundamentalist and very anti-Catholic.

I'd never run into that before I moved here so i was taken by surprise.

My first encounter with it was some "Chick" tracts left in the lounge at the Midas shop. Then I found that a couple people I was working with on a project got pretty cool when they found out I was raised Catholic (though I left the Church 20 years ago).

I guess bigotry still gets "carefully taught".

[shrike]

39. Nothing like a religion thread to get everyone all excited

These things grow like weeds, don't they?

[4_Legs_Good]

51. Aaaaaamen!

[DemBones DemBones]

93. Unfortunately, antiCatholicism is the last acceptable prejudice

among the "tolerant" people who call themselves liberals.

Certainly people have a right to criticize the pope, but, as you have pointed out, it always goes FAR beyond criticism here at DU (and at other "liberal" sites.) It makes me despair for the future of liberalism and the Democratic Party.

[Mandate My Ass]

19. Maybe he should give the treasures of the Vatican to the poor

Lead by example and all of that.

[KoKo]

20. Well he could try experimenting with "Contemporary Services." They are

very popular where I live and seem to draw in most of the young kids as well as families who don't like to have to "dress up" to go to church or deal with "formality."

I live in the South where this is popular. I like traditional services, but they are becoming harder and harder to find.

I think he's a little late in observing this, though. America has been "souless for quite a while now." :shrug:

[Chicago Democrat]

24. What do you want him to say? Party and sin everyone! Apocalypse is acomin!

:)

[AndyTiedye]

45. It Was Good of the Pope to Condemn the War, But...

then he turned around and puts the whole weight of the Catholic Church behind
the reselection of the vile creature that started the war.

What's a little war of agression as long as you're opposed to abortion, right?

[Chicago Democrat]

101. I never heard the Pope say anything nice about Bush

Some stupid Cardinals are being political, but that is just wrong.

[snooper2]

28. He can kiss my soulless ass...

I like my S-10 and my Jamba Juice so he screw off and get a real job.

[Southsideirish]

46. Very disrespectful post not only to the Pope but to all Catholics.

[discordian]

92. I think that was the point...

[pennylane100]

30. Maybe American's do have a little less soul

but he sold his soul to the devil when he took to protecting and promoting pimps and pedophiles.

[Stuckinthebush]

31. Stuckinthebush worries about pontificating pontif

Stuckinthebush worries about anacronistic life in the vatican, urges action

[goclark]

33. Our soul less leaders

serve as a terrible role model for all Americans. Funny he didn't mention that the BUSH WAR was based on material gain for OIL.


The Pope needs to tend to his own house first. Those that live in glass houses should not throw STONES. The abuses of children by HIS priests should keep him busy for a while.

When the POPE gets his priests in check, then he can talk to me about morals and values.

[steely]

44. I respect the Pope - but you are sooo right.

I though the same thing alittle bit ago when the Bishop in Denver started making statements regarding politics and communion.

I'm not looking at what they're saying, but rather what they're not saying.

[AspenRose]

73. "One of the clearest indications of the impending loss

of intimacy with one's soul is the failure to recognize the existence of a soul in those over whom power is exercised, especially if the helpless come to be treated as animals, and degraded."

From Al Gore's speech, earlier this week

[Malva Zebrina]

41. I feel sorry for the Pope because he is so old and infirm

I think though that, a call to restore the souls of people, should include then, giving full equality to women in the church re priesthood and other hierophant priviledges---otherwise women will always have only half a soul if not allowed to develop their sprituality to hit's fullest, as the men do.

There are many clogs and burrs in this church that are easily criticized, with reason and justice, whenever proclamations like this are made by the Pope or others in the hierarchy of the church.

[Tight_rope]

43. I say to the Pope..."Some of Us Gotta Go To Hell"!

I could go into the many reasons why many have strayed from the church (ALL Churches), in fact, religion as a whole. That would only mean that my spirit would still be shouting "All That Went Wrong" from it's urn. So, I won't go there.

In stead, I'll simply take the easiest and fastest way out of this forum by saying, "Some of US Gotta Go To Hell! We all can't get in.

[nolabels]

49. There was that story

You know about that guy who supposedly went to hell and came back to tell the story, Jesus, I just can't remember his name though. Can anybody else remember who it was?

"In a democracy, dissent is an act of faith. -J. William Fulbright"

"A true friend stabs you in the front. -Oscar Wilde"

"People are trapped in history and history is trapped in them. -James Baldwin"

http://www.miniluv.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=471

[Joanne98]

47. Why doesn't he just attack Wall Street?

That's where it's coming from. DUH

[4_Legs_Good]

52. He does

regularly.

david

[nolabels]

61. Stock options doing poorly I guess

You know I posted this yesterday, but maybe it would of been better here. I have known quite a few Catholics and cannot remember one I wouldn't have wanted to be freinds with (most of them were and are)
The disconnect comes from people on HIGH, just like * and the rest his cabal. We all can only get together and change the big things collectively. I don't want to bash anybody really, just would hope they think carefully on who they think these leaders for virture and good are or were. Who really knows for sure?
(grain of salt, please)



http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/hitlerspope.htm
HITLER'S POPE

Long-buried Vatican files reveal a new and shocking indictment of World War II's Pope Plus XII: that in pursuit of absolute power he helped Adolf Hitler destroy German Catholic political opposition, betrayed the Jews of Europe, and sealed a deeply cynical pact with a 20th-century devil.

BY JOHN CORNWELL

One evening several years ago when I was having dinner with a group of students, the topic of the papacy was broached, and the discussion quickly boiled over. A young woman asserted that Eugenio Pacelli, Pope Pius XII, the Pope during World War II, had brought lasting shame on thc Catholic Church by failing to denounce the Final Solution. A young man, a practicing Catholic, insisted that the case had never been proved.

Raised as a Catholic during the papacy of Pius Xll - his picture gazed down from the wall of every classroom during my childhood - I was only too familiar with the allegation. It started in 1963 with a play by a young German author named Rolf Hochhuth, Der Stellvertreter (Thc Deputy) which was staged on Broadway in 1964.

It depicted Pacelli as a ruthless cynic, interested more in the Vatican's stockholdings than in the fate of the Jews. Most Catholics dismissed Hochhuth's thesis as implausible, but the play sparked a controversy which has raged to this day.
(snip)

[crossroads]

80. That would be against his religion!

:eyes:

[Trajan]

48. Former Catholic worries about amoral life in Vatican, urges rejection ...

I dont like Green Eggs and Ham; I dont like them, Sam I Am ...

Being born and raised in the cradle of the Catholic Catechisem, I find it fascinating that the successor of Peter, the 'Vicarius Christi', would presume that ANY humans could be 'soulless' ...

The soul, whereas it's placement into the human body is allegedly by god, could NOT be removed by other THAN that god ...

Do humans simply toss off their souls ? ... or do they 'darken' through evil ? ...

This kind of commentary is why I left the church long ago: it is internally inconsistent with theological assertions of how a soul becomes manifest within the human being: one cannot simply discard the soul ... it makes no sense to call a man 'soulless' in the context of catholic theology ....

EDIT: btw: being Atheist now: I reject the notion that souls actually exist .... Im open to REAL evidence that souls do truly and in reality: exist ....

[GoddessOfGuinness]

53. The hierarchy of the RW fundy movement

is using Christianity to promote their own self-serving materialistic desires. As if that wasn't enough, now the Pope gets involved in the finger-pointing game in yet another attempt to deflect attention away from the RC Church's scandals.

Someone needs to tell these guys that arrogance is no virtue.

[Piperay]

57. I agree, people here

are living a 'souless' existance but when your 'leader' is a person as evil as chimp it would stand to reason this would happen. Under the new leadership of Kerry America may just reclaim her soul.

[Renew Deal]

58. He should worry more about not touching youths

before he starts with anything else.

[jobendorfer]

65. that's a hilarious statement

From where I sit, the Roman Catholic Church is *the* principal
agent in the destruction of the body / psyche / spirit triplicity
and the promotion of the matter-spirit dualism. "Soul-lessness"
is the logical end-result of the evolution of modern Christian
theology. The "soul-less vision of life" has developed *precisely*
because their dualism has no middle ground: even the Pope's
problem statement denies its existence. We are "in danger
of in turning against spirituality in favor of materialistic
desires." Unfortunately, it's that missing middle ground between
the material and the spiritual -- the mundus imaginalis -- where
events deepen into experiences -- that soul is made (or found).

I'll agree with the Pope that America is starving for soul,
but if it's soul you're looking for, the Vatican is a dry
well. I can tell you from personal observation: the priests
on the floor of St. Peter's wouldn't know a soul-making,
imaginative, religious experience if it bit them on the ass.
(They are, however, quite adept at detecting and expelling
women in short-sleeved blouses.)

J.

[Tight_rope]

75. Now that's some deep shit there!....n/t

[jobendorfer]

82. just trying to point out that oscillation between extremes

is an unavoidable consequence of dualisms.

By the way, what does the "n/t" at the end of your subject
line mean?

J.

[KittyWampus]

94. n/t means "no text". and your point was well put.

dualism leads to stasis.

there needs to be more than thesis/antithesis... hence synthesis. :)

[Tight_rope]

103. You hit it right on the nose! I agree will you 100%

By the way cryingshame was right it means n/t. I wish more people would use it in the subject line if they didn't say anything in the message box. Then we won't have to click on it only to find that there's no text in the message box. :pals:

[Generator]

66. Oh give me a break, ever been to Milan senior Poppo?

Clothes, clothes, and clothes. Darn near the definition of MATERIAL istic.

It's always the souless America.

Hey, wasn't it Italy, er excuse me the ROMANS that co-opted a beautiful message of peace by a great teacher and made it into a murderous msygonist dogma? Oh, that was the past, yeah and you are oh so sorry.

This reminds me why I can't discuss religion calmly. I just wanna start a crusade or something against it.

[jobendorfer]

74. the obsession with clothing extends even to the Vatican

What you are wearing can get you barred from entering
St. Peter's -- at the heart of the Vatican. Doesn't
matter with what intention, in what psychological or
spiritual state you approach the center of Roman
Catholicism -- that, they don't care about. But they
DO care what about what clothes you have on. (Women
in sleeveless blouses seem to greatly provoke them.)
Kind of funny, really.

J.

[displacedtexan]

67. I guess this dashes all hope for an American Pope!

sigh.

Just not faithful enough, I guess.

Not tithing enough, IMHO).

[henslee]

68. Yeah, just send us a few more horny priests.

[damnraddem]

71. America is so much more religious than Western Europe that ...

it's just not funny. The Pope's just pissed because American Catholics won't listen to him on social issues, and want to sue him (well, their local dioceses) on child molestation.

[NashVegas]

77. I Worry Too, But the Church and God Can't Help

When people are buying WWJD pins and Mel Gibson's cross nails.

[Ilsa]

79. I would think that a purely capitalistic society would be ripe

for such a change towards soullessness. It can all be boiled down to a typical Monopoly game (one winner, the others go broke) if the laws don't change to promote more Christian values.

[Arugula Latte]

81. The VATICAN worries about materialism?

Isn't this the same racket that has been plundering and stashing away riches and gold for centuries? Give me a break, Pope Boy.

Religion. Ugh!

[eridani]

83. A Jesuit joke on this topic

A recent Jesuit ceremony for its newest priests featured a lavish banquet with seven courses, classy wine, the whole nine yards. A slightly tipsy Protestant relative of one of them asked for an explanation of the vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. Still puzzled, he sez, "Hey, Father! If this is poverty, what's chastity like?"

[MikeG]

85. How many popes does it take to change a light bulb?

[QC]

86. If the Dalai Lama or the Grand Ayatollah condemned American materialism,

there would be at least 100 posts by now praising them for their wisdom and talking about how much our benighted country could learn from them.

But since it's the Pope he must, by definition, be wrong. So we end up with a thread like this one--i.e., the usual "let's jump on the Catholics" crap.

I'm not Catholic and there's much this Pope has done that I disagree with--like giving Cardinal Law a cushy new job, squawking about same-sex marriage all the time, and the like. But when someone's right, he's right, and it seems undeniable to me that we live in a materialistic, shallow society.

[Lorien]

88. Thanks QC

well and succinctly put! :thumbsup:

[Stuckinthebush]

97. Point taken, however...

I would imagine that the reactions to the Pope here are in response to the continual hypocrisy of the Church. What's that saying about the log in the eye?

Anyway...you have a point, but there are many, many good reasons to slam the Pope.

By the way, just as criticizing Israel does not denote antisemitism, criticizing the Pope does not denote anti-Catholicism.

[xxqqqzme]

95. Lucky pope-dude

maybe he can lecture the 'king of soul'(less) next week when squatter drops by 4 a visit.

[PartyPooper]

96. He should give Junior a piece of his mind when the pretender visits Rome.

After all, it's the friggin' Republican fundies who are the heathen
'materialistic ones' who are destroying America and the world.

:evilfrown:

[rumguy]

100. Good for him...

I hear so many on these boards lamenting the cheapening of American life by the big corps...and here everyone lines up to take turns trashing this guy...

And how quickly we foget that he was wise enough to oppose the Iraq War. He supports international law like the Geneva convention.

Give him a break....

[Rex]

104. Thanks for waiting almost 4 years to speak out.

Your Holiness.

[indepat]

107. Guess I need to turn back to spirituality and away from materialistic

desires. First I'll need to become wealthy like Joe Kennedy so my children can be steered into public service, so they won't have to turn their back on spirituality in favor of materialistic desires.