Third graders being held back protest FCAT near Gov. Bush's office

[Nambe]

TALLAHASSEE (AP)

About 30 students who were told they won't be promoted to the fourth grade held signs and read aloud from books during a protest over a policy that holds back third graders who don't pass the FCAT.

About 43,000 third graders did not pass the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test this year. While many attended summer reading camps with the hope of being promoted, it appears most could still end up being retained.

Students, joined by their parents and Sen. Frederica Wilson, held signs just down the hall from Gov. Jeb Bush's office saying ``Governor Bush: I can read!'' and ``I am just nine years old. Please don't break my spirit''

Evander Bendross of Hollywood said his son, Evander Jr., was on the honor roll and was still told he will be held back. ``He was almost a straight A student,'' Bendross said. ``He can read ... He's one of the smartest kids in the grade and it all comes down to one test. It's unbelievable.''

Wilson, a former principal and a vocal FCAT opponent, said she organized the rally after visiting reading camps and found many students can read well. ---

[moez]

1. Real nice using 8 and 9 year olds for their political cause....

If the parents had put the same amount of effort into insuring that their kids had the basic skills to pass the test, they wouldn't have needed to march their kids to Bush's office.

It's so convenient to push it all off as a fault of the schools or government. Parent's need to take responsibilty for their own kids and their educations.

I'll tell you what, we bitch and moan when we see the pro-lifers parading their kids in front of an abortion clinic - but somehow this makes sense?! Come on!

[LauraK]

2. There are serious problems with the FCAT tests!

Maybe the children are using their parents in the protest. I'm with these children all the way.

http://www.sptimes.com/News/081501/State/46_000_must_retake_FC.shtml

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/education/6011688.htm

[kainah]

3. maybe this makes sense because

they are talking about their own lives! Don't you think these children understand what it means to be held back a grade???? Don't they have a right to protest the policies that dramatically and immediately impact their own lives?????? Yes, it's very different from the fundies dragging their kids to abortion clinics.

[Marymarg]

4. Wait a minute

You are making some pretty heavy assumptions. Some things to consider:

Having basic skills and being able to pass a test may not have the positive correlation that you are assuming. Is the test even valid?

Parents can take all the responsibility and their kids still may not pass that test.

All tests, first of all, test the ability to take tests.

Your analogy of pro-lifers taking kids to abortion clinic protests is ridiculous. The kids taken to Bush's office are the ones whose lives are most affected by this idiocy.

Beware of politicians and test scores. The two don't mix very well.

Nothing as important as assigning grade level should be determined on the results on one test. That is stupid on its face.

[moez]

7. I agree that most of these tests are garbage -

I've seen the ones administered in my own kids' school and I was not impressed. What's worse is that the teachers now spend most of the year teaching to the test. So no - I'm not a fan.

That doesn't change the fact that these kids are being used. If we have problems with the government let's address them ourselves and quit going for the money shots.

In reading through the articles that LauraK had directed us to, I read:

"Students can still be promoted if a teacher-assembled portfolio shows they can read at or near the level expected for children in their grade."

I'm not saying that that makes everything OK - but it does help the situation for people like the kid with straight A's that was mentioned in the original article.

And, fishnfla, I'm sorry - but if with 2 tutors and both parents working diligently with your daughter and she's still not passing - maybe holding her back would not be unwarrented. I'm not trying to besmearch a little girl - I'm just trying to be realistic. Some people take a little longer to "get it" than others. It's better to get back on track in third grade than wait until it's too late.

[fishnfla]

22. YOU REALLY DONT "GET IT" DO YOU???

I'm sure you are the world's greatest parent. You certainly are taking the lead for self-righteuosness. Our daughter, and a many more passed, because of hers' and those other second-rate parents you decry. Some did not. Unlike you, I don't blame the child, nor do I blame the parents. I dont blame the teachers, I don't blame the administrators. I blame the test. Why? Because a test don't have a brain, it ain't got no heart, and it doesn't have eyes. A standard test does nothing for the development and nurturing of a child

You really should become more educated about an issue before you point fingers. I will pray for your cold heart.

[Marymarg]

24. You are soooo right

As a former special education teacher and educational diagnostician, I saw so much garbage done to students because of performance on those stupid tests which were not known to even be valid.
If teachers were allowed to teach students, instead of "the test," we would not need special education, labels, etc. There is no substitute for small groups, one-on-one attention for student success. If the money spent on endless testing (for the benefit of the politicians) were used to cut class sizes the students would be far better served.
As an educational diagnostician, I spent many years testing students (individually--IQ and achievement) and I can tell you that there are many, many types of intelligence and aptitudes. Not all of them lend themselves to the student doing well on a paper and pencil test and neither can future success be correlated to high scores on these tests. In other words, the tests are pretty much worthless, except to beat up students, parents and teachers.
Fishnfla, don't let the turkeys get you down. You sound like a wonderful parent. Hang in there with your child and don't back down.
Good luck!:)

[fishnfla]

28. Thanx MM

For your kind words. This test has caused alot of hard feelings down here. I will thank God for your kind heart, and hard work. I will keep the faith for our children, I'm sure you have helped many more.

[sandnsea]

25. And many catch up without being held back

My son was an okay reader and a terrible writer. I mean terrible, you just can't imagine. He wrote in a paper that he was related to Judy Garland and the teacher thought he wrote George Carlin, really bad.

His teachers took the approach that his spelling and handwriting weren't that important. All that mattered was whether he was learning the overall material. And he was.

And he's now 17 and a B student in AP classes and has passed all of Oregon's standardized high school testing.

There's as much evidence to suggest holding kids back harms them as much as moving them along.

There's just no magic answers when it comes to kids. Well there's one. Letting parents know there's no magic answer and telling them to maintain daily oversight of their child's education and trust their instincts no matter what anybody tells them.

[LeighAnn]

39. I was a protester in the third grade

protesting lunch policies and what-not. A pain in the ass to administrators and lunchroom staff. Who's to say these kids aren't legitimately protesting of their own accord? I would have been if it had happened to me.

[playahata1]

47. GIVE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF EDUCATING STUDENTS BACK TO THE TEACHERS,

AND AWAY FROM THE BUREAUCRATIC ASSHOLES WHO PUT TOGETHER AND ADMINISTER FCAT!

FCAT takes power away from teachers. CLASSROOM PERFORMANCE, OBSERVED AND EVALUATED BY TEACHERS, should be the SOLE determinant of whether or not a child is being educated, whether or not s/he will move on. FCAT and other standardized tests are nothing but memorizing a bunch of facts without context. Knowledge in itself is not enough to survive in the real world. APPLICATION of said knowledge is what counts.

[Dem2dend]

11. When I was a child....

We passed the tests or they held us back.
Parents who allow their children to be promoted when they can't keep up with the rest of the kids aren't doing them any favors.
If they can't keep up with the other kids they lose more self-esteem then if they had been held back in the first place.
The longer you ignore a problem the bigger it becomes.

Should we also give drivers licenses to people who have a tough time mastering tests but know the basics?

[fishnfla]

23. It worked for you didn't it?

Then why change it? This is not a weekly spelling quiz. This ONE standardized test, pass or fail, do not pass go,etc. There is no extra credit make-up. Oh, if you fail you get to take it again, in a year. And if you fail that? Can you imagine the pressure?

When you were 9 years old, did you take a test like that?

[teknomanzer]

29. uh...

the written test for a drivers license is a joke in this county. I think thats why they still test the basic skills on the road. So that was a bad analogy you used. Again doing well on a written test will NOT prove that you are a good driver.

[Dem2dend]

30. The driving test

[Dem2dend]

33. But then again

The written test shows your knowledge of the laws.
If a driver is ignorant of the laws such as; Understanding signs, knowing when not to pass, basic rules regarding right of way issues, etc. how can they be safe drivers?
The road test covers 5 minutes on the road.
I think it was a perfect analogy.
If a kid lacks reading comprehension they will struggle in all their classes.
Letting a child blame the Governor because they are being held back teaches them not to take responsibility.
Public schools don't have problems with too many smart children being held back, too many kids who can't read are graduating (or dropping out)
Complain to the school board if you must, that's were your complaint should be addressed.

[shanti]

51. you don't get it...

oh well, you're not alone.

[Dem2dend]

31. Wait a minute

Who writes the tests, politicans or people educated in schooling?

[shanti]

52. good question...

n/t

[susu369]

10. What is that smell - "Parent's [sic]need to take responsibilty[sic]"

Excuse me, moez, but YOU don't pass the basic punctuation and spelling test.

"Take responsibility." Ah, we know who loves to parrot that phrase.

[moez]

12. HA!

Well you appear to be right.... but, my spelling and punctuation may not have been a high pass - but I'll bet I could've squeezed past the minimum requirements...

Susu, you're surely not trying to imply that simply because I don't agree with your view on parental responsibility, that I'm a dreaded freeper, are you?

My first and most important role in life is a parent. And, I'm one who takes this role very seriously. I've been close enough to my kids' education (through PTA, county educational boards and the like) to see countless parents who would just as soon turn complete control of their kids to the school system. These parents are typically the first and loudest to scream when that approach seems to fail them.

All I can say is that I will not turn my kids' futures over to anyone. And furthermore, I will not ever have them exploited for some momentary political gain.

[fishnfla]

17. The kid's future is turned over to a test, thats it

Jeb's brother Neil makes millions selling the Insight program that trains pupils to pass a test. How's that for exploitation and monetary political gain?

[sandnsea]

26. They think they're SUPPOSED TO DO THAT!!!!

They don't know they have to go to the school once a month to make sure the teacher knows they're a 'concerned parent'. THEIR parents never had to do that. THEY were sent off to school and they got educated. When in the world did we become a country where if the parent isn't breathing down the teacher's neck the kid doesn't get an education????

And teachers don't always want to hear from parents either. In fact with that 17 year old I was just mentioning, only that one school ever listened to me or worked with me. And they had more tips and tricks up their sleeve to help kids than all the other schools I've experienced combined, including the ones I went to as a kid. The other 2 he's been in ignored me completely. Your theory only worked for you because you were perceived as 'important' some how, being on the school board and all.

You're judging people based on YOUR experiences, not from walking through the system in THEIR shoes.

[susu369]

41. I apologize for my rudeness, moez

and you seem to be a good sport about it.

Susu

[moez]

44. Thank you, Susu

(I tried to send you this as a personal message, but I don't have enough posts to send personal messages yet - so here is my public, private response)

You have no need to apologize. My initial comments were inflamatory enough to warrent your response.

While I still don't agree with many of the posts in this thread, I shouldn't have barged in so rudely initially. So instead, accept my apology.

Thanks again.
Moez

[w4rma]

13. These standarized tests are bull.

Do we want an America of clones? Do we want teachers to teach students how to memorize for a standardized test? I don't think so.

And, these kids are the ones who are protesting because it's THEIR lives being affected, their parents are supporting their protests as they should.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

20. did you take a wrong turn back there at that fork in the road?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

21. bush could NOT pass a Terra Nova 4th grade test!

and this is NO joke!

[teknomanzer]

27. In case you hadn't noticed...

A large portion of these kids HAVE mastered BASIC skills. The point you are missing is the fact that many people are not real good at taking tests. I am fortunately one person who is, why because I know some of the tricks to taking tests.

For example, process of elimination can be used to select the best answers on some tests. Using this kind of trick may boost my score even though I really didn't know the exact answer.

Another - skipping tough questions and going back later. Some times you get lucky on a test and find the answer to one question tucked away in information provided in another question further down the test, or a question will jog your memory and provide an answer you didn't remember...

There are many more examples of things you can do to improve a score on a test. Shoot - taking tests is a skill of its own. So I don't believe a single test can determine the progress of a student across the broad spectrum of subjects taught in school.

Why the hell should teachers bother to grade students in individual subjects if its all to be determined by one friggin' test? This test is really more of a judge of how well you can take a standardized test versus how well you have learned a variety of subjects.

On edit...

Spelling and grammar... probably missed something... but I'm not being graded... so screw it.

[MaraJade]

48. Millions of highly intelligent and creative people have

test taking anxiety. Millions who do very well educationally and
professionally on a normal basis freeze up or have other problems with testing.

One test proves absolutely nothing at all about intelligence or
achievement. It only proves that the people passing are very good
test takers. Or else they can afford to pay the high fees associated
with test tutoring services.

What I absolutely despise about these stupid "assessment" examinations is that no one ever considers the other work that the
student has done throughout the year.

The real reason for these tests is simply to put public education out
of business. Whenever enough kids fail to pass, the blame will be
put on the school and the vouchers will raise their ugly heads.
Absolutely nothing will be done to assist the kids involved. If
anyone is using the children for a political motive, it is all of the conservatives who want to "starve the public education beast"
with useless and pointless testing and vouchers.

"Using kids, " nothing. I am sure that these kids themselves don't
want to suffer the stigma of being held back--being laughed at
by classmates is not conducive to achievement. And think about the
young honor student mentioned in the article. I guess that poor
baby will just give up altogether now. After all, no matter how
hard he works for "A's", he will still be held back by a single test.
Why would anyone even want to continue to try when it has been
made impossible to succeed?

[shanti]

53. aha

'The real reason for these tests is simply to put public education out
of business. Whenever enough kids fail to pass, the blame will be
put on the school and the vouchers will raise their ugly heads.
Absolutely nothing will be done to assist the kids involved. If
anyone is using the children for a political motive, it is all of the conservatives who want to "starve the public education beast"
with useless and pointless testing and vouchers.'



you are right on the money!

[shanti]

50. did you even read the friggin story??

good grief.

[fishnfla]

5. You're plain wrong

Would you like to meet my 3rd grader? Would you repeat what you said to her, her mom, her teachers, and her 2 tutors, and myself? They would all disagree with you.
Oh and thanks for the blame, BTW. This FCAT, we didn't choose it. It was shoved down our throats.

ON EDIT: reply to #1, not original post

[madfloridian]

6. FCAT is an awful test.

It absolutely is. I know, I had to give it for years. It is one thing to hold people accountable, it is another to base it all on one poorly constructed test.

Are you guys aware that the the state will not reveal WHY a student failed to pass? They do not have to show any proof, it is just their word for it.

I saw such horrible discrepancies that I would cry with my kids. I had honor students fail, and students who guessed all the way, done in minutes, pass.

Do not justify condemning a child's progress on just one test.

If you do, you are giving away your lack of tolerance....that other criteria must be considered.

On Edit: Reply to the #1 poster with the attitude.

[bluestateguy]

8. Jeb Bush's Florida

He could make like Rick Perry in TX and have wheelchair bound protestors arrested and jailed.

[Pastiche423]

34. That was governor *

that had 17 people in wheelchairs (not wheelchair bound - people are not bound w/ropes to chairs) arrested and jailed.

Unless perry did it too?

[bluedog]

9. wait a sec

being from fl, these kids are pushed every day to study what is on the tests....thats about all the teacher can do...she has to push them to make sure that their school passes or it gets an F....the schools that pass get some sort of bonus from Jebby......

No!!!! they are not learning the way we use to...they are only being taught to pass the test......

[Dem2dend]

35. Without tests

How do you measure how well a student is doing?
Colleges require tests as do some employers (particularily for kids in high school looking for their first job)
If a child does poorly on tests then the parent needs to work on that with them. To abolish tests that most children pass because a minority of them can't, won't help.
Teaching a child the "blame game" doesn't make them feel better about themselves, it makes them less willing to take responsibility for other things in life.

[Gemini Cat]

37. There are other methods that can be used to measure progress...

...besides a test. Grades for example. If a child is doing poorly in school, the grades can be used as one of the indicating measures. A standardized test is hardly an indicator of overall academic achievement.

[JCMach1]

46. You don't understand-- testing is THE ONLY thing that JEB

and his brother * have come up with to supposedly help education. And even that's not their baby. Perot started the movement in TX with his reform commission.

They promote testing as THE SAVIOR of our educational system. Meanwhile, they use it as a wedge to carry out voucher programs and further the destruction of the public school system in this country.

Reason and exhibit #1 as to why I left the public school system in FL as a teacher!!!!!!

FCAT is complete and utter smoke and mirrors... :puke:

[Frances]

14. I wish I could say that standardized tests solve all problems

But I have personal experience with 3 people who got screwed by computerized tests in another state.

One was an exceptionally bright kid who just got too nervous to darken the bubbles correctly. He failed the test for that reason.

Another student's scores were accidentally entered into the system erroneously. He was supposed to be in an honors class and was assigned to an average class. No one would have known about the error except that I knew the person and asked that the administration check his scores.

A third student was placed in a developmental class when he should have been in an average class. In that case the person doing the assignments was a racist and deliberately misplaced the student. The administrator backed down when I showed him the work that the student had done in class. I gave the administrator a face saving out by not challenging him when he said it was an accident.

[shanti]

54. why encourage the racist?

he will only do it again.

[Frances]

15. I think that it's good that Florida

says that there are other ways to be passed to the next grade. However, what happens in real life is that the parents who have the most influence with the school administrators are usually the ones that get exceptions for their children.

[Eloriel]

16. Now, see? They'd have passed if they'd used Neil's computer programs

I'm sure of it.

Florida better get on it. Just $30 a student, that's all.

/sarcasm

This is heartbreaking. These are the most evil people I've ever encountered in my life. I actually used to say that ("evil") about Bush1 -- I didn't know the HALF of it.

Damn these people to hell, and eternity isn't nearly long enough.

Eloriel

[mbperrin]

18. Thanks for mentioning Mr. Neil Bush

convicted felon and banned from life from securities business selling remedial hardware in his bro's state (must work damn good, huh? 43,000 failed!)

These tests, by the way, are produced by Pearson, a Carlyle company.

Any other damn way the Bushes can profit off these poorly constructed tests?

The one in Texas has children categorize true and false facts!

Flash: all facts are true, but not to pass the test.

The one in Texas says that the preferred grammar is always the selection with the shortest sentences and the most periods.

I taught English to sophomores to pass this stupid test, and the reason it is hard is because it is completely arbitrary and bears no resemblance to established English. The less imagination a child uses, the better off they are. The less outside knowledge they bring in, the better off they are. They just need to know the "special" rules and procedures to pass this one test!

BTW, Shakespeare samples pan out as "bad" examples of writing.
A great selection from the Texas Highway Department is wonderful, though.

[shanti]

56. special rules and procedures?

i think i will :puke:

[FlaGranny]

19. What you said, Eloriel

Instead of kids who are taught to love to learn, we'll get little test-taking automatons without imagination. No wonder of discovery, just drills for the FCAT.

[Gemini Cat]

38. Along with test taking automatons without imagination,

we may get test taking automatons that will have lost the ability to ask the questions, think critically, and most importantly have the ability to change the things that are wrong. Sounds like a Bush plan from hell to me!

[shanti]

55. do you believe

that they are hell-bent on destroying this country as we know it? it sure seems so, taking it one (major) state at a time.

[Whoa_Nelly]

32. * needs to take

the FCAT, as well as a high school English proficiency test. Bet he would fail both.

[Sick of Bullshit]

36. This is insane

Third graders should not have to have their promotion to fourth grade hanging on the results of one stupid test.

[MRDU]

40. Third graders protest Bush

Lt. Gov. Toni Jennings told the children's parents that she would talk to Governor Jeb Bush about the issue.

"You know how strongly he feels about making sure that the children read on grade level and don't be pushed along and unprepared before they get to the next grade," Lt. Gov. Toni Jennings

[Marymarg]

42. Testing

I do not know anything about the test in Florida but the ones in Texas have been ridiculous.
When Texas first started this test-mania, we (educators and parents) were told the results would be used to help the schools identify weak areas in their teaching/curriculum. These were criterion-referenced tests meaning the score indicated how the student did in terms of percentage of correct answers.
As time went on, these scores were used for comparison purposes--and more and more time, energy, money were invested in it. Administrators found that their raises, if not their very jobs hinged on good scores on these tests. Consequently, more pressure was put on teachers who found out that their careers depended on the test scores of their students.
When I worked as a Diagnostician, I worked in one school that referred 15 kindergarteners for Special Education assessment the year kindergarteners were forced to take "the test." The year before when they were not included in "the test," only one referral. (Special Education students are not forced to take "the test." So, what happened is that students were given "practice" tests. If their tests were not good, they were referred to Special Education assessment, given the label "learning disabled" so that their scores would not be counted.
Because I objected to this, I was always in trouble in the school system. I would never put a label on a child for such a reason. Special Education can be a wonderful recourse for a student who has met failure after failure. HOWEVER, it should be the last resort, as it was designed--to provide intervention when all else fails and for only what is necessary. The law states that all students are entitled to have the least restrictive environment possible. What I saw violated this totally. Administrators and some teachers cared little if anything about what they were doing to the students. They were concerned about their careers and were too wussy to stand up for the students.
Remember: any test tests the performance of a student on one instument on one day. That is all it does. The results of one test should never be used alone for such decisions as placement.

[BushHasGotToGo]

43. These kids need to be spending time in the books rather ..

than protesting.

[fishnfla]

45. Hell ya!

No sense in learning them right from wrong! They got a test to take! Summer? Screw you, boy!

Funny how the goverment-off-your-back Repugs are cracking the whip on the necks of these children.

[MaraJade]

49. Apparently, they already ARE spending time in the books. . .

but the time that they have spent studying means absolutely nothing
whatsoever in the face of the MIGHTY TEST.

:eyes:

DUH!