Defiant US says Falluja dead were rebels

[JoFerret]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1190288,00.html

The United States last night robustly defended its controversial siege of Falluja which has cost the lives of more than 600 people over the past week, by claiming most of those who died were militants picked off with precision by US marines.
As a tense ceasefire held in the turbulent city west of Baghdad and an international hostage crisis persisted across Iraq, the US marine commander in charge of the siege of Falluja claimed 95% of those killed were legitimate targets.

The death toll in Falluja has sparked widespread international concern and has led to condemnation by the US-appointed Iraqi governing council.

Yesterday, the director of the town's general hospital, Rafie al-Issawi, said the vast majority of the dead were women, children and the elderly.

But when asked about the victims numbers, US marine Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne said: "What I think you will find is 95% of those were military age males that were killed in the fighting. The marines are trained to be precise in their firepower ... The fact that there are 600 goes back to the fact that the marines are very good at what they do," he said. >>
<more>

[Malva Zebrina]

1. this is so sad

so very sad

Picked off with precision.

How many of those who were picked off were children?

Toddlers?

Babies?

Picked off with precision.

This is meant to stir up the nationalism of the six pack red necked uneducated, flag waving American slobs that sit back and although they are not volunteering, see fit to call those of us who dissent, traitors.

what have we become?

I divest myself of this. I cannot comply or approve of this barbarism.

[keithyboy]

25. It doesn't matter what this admin tells us or the media. It's what

the Iraqi people see in front of their eyes that counts. All the spin in the world to the blinded sheep at home won't change the facts on the ground.

[saigon68]

87. militants picked off with precision by US marines.

Shot thru the head w/ precision



I'll bet there ia a real proud family member in awe, of our miltary's precision abilities

[jobycom]

2. On the radio news a few hours ago

I think it was ABC news, the two minute top of the hour report on most AM stations, they reported that 600 were dead, and that reports said most were women and children, as the article you cite mentions.

If the AMerican news reports aren't covering it up, it must be pretty well documented. Although, you know our military will say that the dead women, children and elderly were killed by insurgents, not our troops. A year from now they will correct the story, of course.

[RapidCreek]

59. Autopsy's should clear that up pretty quickly.

RC

[saigon68]

95. KRAZY KILLER KIMMITT enforcer for the Viceroy







KRAZY KILLER KIMMITT

[burrowowl]

3. I guess according to U$

logic, the children would grow up to be rebels, so get them while they are young. As for the grandmothers, maybe they had bad intentions.
Sick just sick.

[pinkpops]

4. preemptive, plain and simple.

[aquart]

5. I like to think of it as mass murder.

They hadn't done a damn thing to us until we stole their country.

[twilight]

8. its not "mass murder", it is GENOCIDE

<EOM> :( :( :( :( :( :(

:nuke:

:dem: :kick:

[alittlelark]

28. How many murders until it is REALLY genocide?

200, 500, 1000, 10000 ...... how far are these psychopaths willing to go??

When will we retreat with whatever dignity we can muster and lick our wounds?

When will I again be proud to be an American?

[Zhade]

54. "When will I again be proud to be an American?"

After the revolution.

I am seriously enraged over Fallujah. The fact that the AC-130s murdering civilians are ones from my dad's old unit - the fact that I have been on those planes and sat in the gunner's seat, pretending to shoot bad guys when I was a kid - that has totally sunk its claws into me. I can't sleep well, my conscience keeps screaming at me to do something, and I am fuck-all out of ideas that might actually work.

We are imitating the Nazis (and, ironically, current IDF tactics under the tutelage of Ariel Sharon), and I am ashamed of this country. Ashamed of its apathy, ashamed of its ignorant citizens, and ashamed that I can't seem to do more.

America is dying by a thousand cuts, and I fear for the future of our Republic.

[Atlanticist]

56. I can sense your rage -

now think what your average Iraqi (or Palestinian or Chechen or heaven forbid - poor Muslim in a Detroit slum) feels like ? And Bush still thinks he's made the world safer.

[Zhade]

78. You said it, my friend.

Thanks, b*sh and company, for making us the new Nazis.

Fucking traitors!

[Judi Lynn]

36. As Dub would say, why wait 10 or 15 years for the kids to grow up

and maybe consider getting us back, when we can take it to them now!

Unbearable.

What's worse is that you know from listening to radio talk shows that there actually are some people in this country stupid and vicious and cowardly enough to think this is just fine.

[amber dog democrat]

15. Let them hate

so long as they fear, - Caligula

This is going to come back on us a thousand fold.

[Barkley]

35. Yeah, and look what happened to Caligula

In 24 January AD 41 Cassius Chaerea, together with two military colleagues fell upon the emperor in a corridor of his palace. Several praetorians then swept through the palace seeking to kill any surviving relatives. Caligula's fourth wife Caesonia was stabbed to death, her baby daughter's skull smashed against a wall.
http://www.roman-empire.net/emperors/caligula.html

[secretshopper]

6. Even accepting their sick arithmetic

We killed 30 innocents with precision.

Of course, how many of us remember the utterly bogus "body counts" on the nightly news from Vietnam? I think the phrase usually ended with "+++ enemy were killed with a loss of only --- of our own soldiers." +++ was always higher than ---, so we were ahead. Following that math, we won peace with honor, right?

I don't trust any numbers approved by the Pentagon's PR department.

My theory is that we killed or maimed a large number of innocents. We had warfare in a populated urban center. Think of it, what would warfare look like in your home town? The people rebelling against us may have killed some, but our occupation increasingly looks like the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, where innocents are killed all the time.

The biggest change I noticed is that we actually COUNTED the Iraqi dead. I was on a trip recently, when did counting Iraqi victims begin?

Secret Shopper
On edit: Fixed a missed shift key...

[The Stranger]

7. Draft the indictments. Make the arrests.

These are war crimes.

[0007]

9. Facts, facts, cough cough, as a matter of fact lets talk about

the Kuwaiti incubators in the early 90's that demonized the ruthlessness of the Iraqi. That was propaganda, 'eh?

The majority of the dead were women, children and the elderly. I also hear that the marines are sharp shooters? Goes to show `ya there is no continuity from Commander in Chief to General to the scared dog face in the field. Well, if Kenneth Lay can get away with ripping off folks, I guess the military can do the same, 'eh?

Isn't there any truth with this administration? I hope Paul Bremer suffers from strange dreams of the dead. Maybe a real rebel would scare the shit out of him, huh?

[sspiderjohn]

10. I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight -- this is just too awful.

HOW can this be happening -- what kind of monsters are we?

[Tinoire]

11. Stunning.... Pictures of the "rebels" here

No wonder they need Al-Jazeera out. Al-Jazeera's pictures make pathological liars out of them all.

Here's a photo of the first rebel in Fallujah



"What I think you will find is 95% of those were military age males that were killed in the fighting. The marines are trained to be precise in their firepower ... The fact that there are 600 goes back to the fact that the marines are very good at what they do," he said.

More of the rebels (picked off with IDF-style precision) can be found here: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8CB7C17E-F69E-48A2-8034-DEA425192815.htm

[sspiderjohn]

13. The px of that lifeless precious little child just rips your heart out

I definitely will not sleep tonight

[bobthedrummer]

14. Reuters UK article: "Iraqi children lie wounded in Falluja clinic"

from yesterday
http://www.reuters.co.uk/news/PackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=491768§ion=news

[bobthedrummer]

17. Sheesh, that link was working fine when I posted it in LBN yesterday

Iraqi children lie wounded in Falluja clinic
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x478026

[nolabels]

33. Here is place to look for links

Links for More Information on the War and Occupation of Iraq
http://www.occupationwatch.org/section.php?id=7

http://www.occupationwatch.org/article.php?id=4046
Doctor reveals Falluja's horror toll
by Aljazeera + Agencies, Al Jazeera
April 9th, 2004
At least 450 Iraqis have been killed and more than 1000 others wounded in fighting in the city of Falluja this week, says a doctor who runs the city's main hospital.

Dr Rafi Hayad, the director of the main hospital supplied the figures to the Reuters news agency. The agency has given no explanation of how Hayad reached his figures.

In Baghdad an aide to a member of the interim Governing Council said on Friday more than 400 Iraqis have been killed and 1000 wounded in a six-day US offensive against insurgents in Falluja.

"To this day, more than 400 Iraqis have been killed and more than 1,000 others wounded in Falluja," said Hatem al-Husseini, an aide to council member Muhsin Abdul Hameed from the Iraqi Islamic Party.

"These numbers were given to us from Falluja, from all hospitals, and they are correct 100 percent," he told AFP.
(snip)

[IndianaGreen]

58. Isn't he wearing cammies?

Our military leaders are sounding like their Vietnam counterparts, or worse yet, like the IDF press office.

Meantime, here is our brave Presidential candidate's statement about the civilian casualties in Fallujah, Iraq's version of Jenin:

"chirp, chirp, chirp"

[RapidCreek]

60. No kidding, right?

Stand by for more of the same ole same ole.

RC

[leftchick]

68. Another Rebel Wounded with a precision weapon....

Wounded two year old Iraqi boy Ali Abdullah is carried by his father to a clinic after he was hurt by an overnight blast that destroyed their neighbour's home in the besieged town of Falluja April 11, 2004. REUTERS/Akram Saleh

And Another....



A wounded Iraqi grandmother, Naima Abdullah, is carried to a clinic in the besieged town of Falluja, April 11, 2004, after she was hurt by an overnight blast that destroyed their neighbor's home. REUTERS/Akram Saleh


It is not just Al-Jazeera that photograghs the dead and wounded. Take a peek at the Yahoo Iraq slideshow where I found these. It is heartbreaking what our country has become....

[Media_Lies_Daily]

12. How many were innocent women and children? About 500?

[Terran]

16. "precision"? What crap!

This was a pitched battle between our forces and theirs. Precision is not possible in that sort of situation.

[TankLV]

18. Let's see: who to believe. The US, which has been prooved always lies,

or anyone else.

I'll go with anyone else.

[daleo]

19. I thought they would claim everyone killed was a terrorist, by definition

The fact that they are out and out lying about the composition of the dead is surprising. I believe earlier they defined any male over 10 to be 'of military age', so even here they are admitting that the killing is indiscriminate.

After this, what hope could there be left that a U.S. puppet government would be considered legitimate in the eyes of the people.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jacobin]

21. Have you enlisted yet, sir?

[Eye and Monkey]

23. tick tock tick tock

[bobthedrummer]

24. Bye bye

[saigon68]

76. adios

[shanti]

22. they have to say this

or they wouldn't be able to live with themselves...

[riverwalker]

26. another quote from Lt. Col. Byrne

"MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) is the most intense kind of fighting," said Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne, a battalion commander.
"And this is like Hue City in Vietnam," he said, referring to the former imperial capital where in 1968 US troops faced the most ferocious street fighting of the communists' decisive Tet offensive."

If this guy was in charge, it may explain the high casualties.

[The_Casual_Observer]

29. Colonel Brennan Byrne

War criminal pure and simple.

[bloom]

27. Big honking machine guns...

how precise are those?

[bobthedrummer]

30. Considerably more precise than AC-130 gunships and cluster munitions

which were used in Fallujah.

[PsychoDad]

31. At the very least

They could have grown up to be rebels... or give birth to more rebels.

Nothing to see here, the crusade is on track.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

32. Response: The White Rose Society, fight against fascism.

http://homepage.mac.com/benburch/WRIndex1.html

"...there is no punishment on this earth commensurate with their crimes. But out of love for coming generations we must make an example after the conclusion of the war, so that no one will ever again have the slightest urge to try a similar action. And do not forget the petty scoundrels in this regime; note their names, so that none will go free! They should not find it possible, having had their part in these abominable crimes, at the last minute to rally to another flag and then act as if nothing has happened!"

[ConservativeDemocrat]

34. Can I add just a tiny amount of doubt here?

Will any of the people here grant the supposition that perhaps -- just perhaps -- the director of Falluja's general hospital might be lying?

He is, after all, probably anti-US. Even if he's not, he's certainly not going to put out a statement saying anything that would upset the Sunni militiamen running the place. Remember: these people are the ones who routinely go around killing Iraqis who merely translate for western reporters, many of whom work for publications on-record as being against the US occupation.

Further, when Marines talk about being "precise in their firepower", they mean that they are using long-range sniper rifles. These are weapons that can shoot targets up to two miles away with perfect accuracy.

If you wonder why the military tends to vote Republican, it is pretty obvious by the messages posted here. Instead of attacking the Bush administration for getting our soldiers into this mess, you spend time calling them baby killers based on exceedingly tenuous and unreliable evidence from an obviously biased source.

- C.D.

[Tinoire]

38. No. Take any Bush-loving, Bush-defending doubt elsewhere.

Thank you.

[progressivebydesign]

40. Hmm.. the bombing of the hospital and mosque..

.. that was precision? I refuse to only blame the Bush Administration for this.. people who make a living of killing other people (whether it means college money or not) are not people I can relate to.. sorry. I'd sell my body parts before I harmed another person. Rebels are just what the military is NOW calling the civilians that are tired of the killing and destruction in Iraq.

[tedzbear]

41. I would trust a medical doctor in a war zone over an army general any day.

Doctors are healers, army generals are killers.

[NickB79]

44. The rifles they fire are only as accurate as the men behind them

Yes, on a firing range, perfectly calm wind conditions, 75F, sunny, no noise or distractions, Marine snipers can make hits on man-sized targets at amazing ranges, often past 1000 yds. Standard Marines, armed with M4's and M16's, can usually hit man-sized targets out to 500 yds with a high degree of success. Hits at two miles on man-sized targets are fantasy though, as these references are meant to describe anti-material rifles chambered in .50 BMG hitting vehicles, not individual Iraqi resistance fighters.

Now, move these shooters to the streets of Fallujah. You have RPG's exploding around you, bullets wizzing past your head from AK's and machine guns, smoke, noise, utter confusion (the fog of war, as it were). Even the best of Marines will make mistakes in these conditions, firing at anything that moves. Sometimes your mind can begin to play tricks on you in situations like these. There have been many instances where deer hunters fired on fellow hunters in the woods, even when they were wearing blaze orange, because the hunter's mind was so set on bagging a deer that he was convinced the man he's aiming at IS a deer. The same mistakes have been documented in soldiers of every major war, firing at women and children they were absolutely convinced were enemy soldiers until they saw the bodies.

Just because they're Marines doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. They are still human.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

47. Fair enough...

Everything you say is consistent with what the Marine commander was saying. Lets look at the math. Assume you have 600 people killed by the marines, and they do indeed have a 95% accuracy. (It is, actually, a lot easier to be accurate when firing out of the effective range of your enemy - so this is not that unbelievable.)

Still, that's 600 * 5% = 30 innocent civilians killed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Thirty people! And in the U.S., we're upset that we've lost 12 soldiers!

And nobody here is counting how many innocents are being killed by the Sunni gangs firing at the marines. All those AK-47s, machine guns, and RPGs are even less precise, and the people wielding them have far fewer compunctions than our soldiers. There are by now dozens of documented instances where the "resistance fighters" have killed innocent Iraqi bystanders in their attempts to kill American soldiers.

Again, I was not for this war. And I am not at all convinced that this nation building exercise is a good one. Maybe pulling out won't turn Iraq into a terrorist hotbed like Richard Clarke says it will. But regardless, it's also true that too many people in in the D.U. are exactly the caricature the GOP likes to paint of all Democrats: anti-patriots with a near pathological hatred of all Americans in uniform, and uncritical acceptance of any story simply because it puts the U.S. in a bad light.

- C.D.

[Zhade]

80. "There are by now dozens of documented instances..."

Prove it.

And I DEMAND you retract the following statement:

But regardless, it's also true that too many people in in the D.U. are exactly the caricature the GOP likes to paint of all Democrats: anti-patriots with a near pathological hatred of all Americans in uniform, and uncritical acceptance of any story simply because it puts the U.S. in a bad light.

Just who the fuck do you think you are, calling people 'anti-patriots'? Who said you get to decide what's patriotic and what's not?

My dad did 24 years in the military. I don't hate him, I hate what the military has done in the guise of "freedom" and "democracy". Murdering millions of innocents over decades is not patriotic.

[saigon68]

89. Save your anger Zhade

There are a number of people here who like to use the straw man argument. This guy is one of them. Let him spin his mindless drivel. I am convinced a lot of them would have supported Heydrich, because he was in the military. Most are cowards, who are military "jock sniffers" to quote their favorite blond bimbo Ann Colter

[Zhade]

101. Yes, they are cowards.

Probably more than just cowards, at that...

[ConservativeDemocrat]

93. Here your proof, from center-left sources

Insurgents kill four Iraqi police, two civilians
12 injured in Iraqi car bomb explosion
(In Kirkuk, also in the north, a car bomb exploded, killing three civilians and wounding two others)
Car bomb kills 27 in Baghdad bomb kills 27 in Baghdad - Marks latest in wave of attacks on civilians

Blah blah blah. Learn to use google. Or turn on the news.


Here's some things you might not see by, like turning on the news every night:
Dispatches from Iraq

"There is an assassination epidemic in Iraq. The targets are varied; motives sometimes guessable, sometimes not; the gunmen and bombers unknown."
...
"I have a friend, Ahmed, a neat, handsome radical Islamist who painstakingly explains to me why it's OK to kill Iraqi women and children if they are standing in the way of Americans, because this is permissible in jihad."
...
"A psychiatrist friend, Dr. Ali, who is trying to set up an NGO to treat post-traumatic stress-disordered children (Good God, I asked him, where do you begin?), says he is constantly looking behind him in the street to make sure he is not being followed. The last time he was threatened, a man called his wife and told her they would kill the whole family if her husband did not stop working with the Ministry of Health—and by extension the American occupiers. "In the summer, there were just threats," he told me, "but so many doctors have been assassinated, now the problem is not threats, it is action.

"At Mustansiriya University, four professors have been killed over the past year. Dr. Fallah Hussein, the vice dean, was shot outside the gates of the university in the days of chaos after the fall. Dr. Sabah Marhoud, a famous writer, was stopped by a gunman outside his home and shot twice in the head. Dr. Mahmoud Al Qaisi was in a wheelchair after being paralyzed in the Iran-Iraq war. He was kidnapped last August; his body turned up 10 days later. Dr. Abdul Latif Al Mayah, head of the Arab studies department was killed in January, the day after he made one of his appearances on Al Jazeera supporting Ayatollah Ali Sistani's view that elections should come as early as possible. His car was stopped by eight gunmen. His bodyguard and colleague were told to get out, and he was shot in the drivers' seat. As he slumped, wounded and bleeding, they pulled him out of the car and shot him again, reportedly another 32 times."

- - - -

Oh, and I stand by my comments saying that people who insult our soldiers are anti-patriots. Our service people, and the Iraqi civilians, are the real victims of this war. And if you don't like my opinion - deal with it.

[KAZ]

81. ..true that too many people in in the D.U. are exactly the...

... caricature the GOP likes to paint of all Democrats: anti-patriots with a near pathological hatred of all Americans in uniform.."

Whay do I get baited into this crap. Screw you pal!

Yeah 95% accuracy. Sure, they were all sniper kills.

[bobbyboucher]

88. C-130 gunships are not precise, it's more like

lead rain.

Don't pretend the only ops going on there are snipers, that would be foolish.

Your admiration of the precision of the snipers is only exceeded by your ostrich-like justification of the dead.

[NickB79]

94. But they are not outside the range of their enemy

"It is, actually, a lot easier to be accurate when firing out of the effective range of your enemy - so this is not that unbelievable."

The effective range of the 7.62x39mm round fired by the AK-47 assault rifles at which they can reliably hit a man-sized target is ~250 yds due to the relatively poor accuracy of the standard AK variant. The effective range of the 5.56x45mm round fired by the M4/M16 assault rifle is approximately twice that given the much higher tolerances US rifles and ammunition are held to, along with better sights and optics, resulting in better accuracy. But we're discussing fighting that's going on in an urban environment where the average range is usually 50-100 yds. We are not out of their effective range at all. The kind of fighting going on there is very similar to that seen in urban warfare in Vietnam. Same rifles on both sides, both in urban landscapes, both fighting guerrilla wars and blending in with the civilian population. We all saw how well our greater ranged weapons did in Vietnam.

I don't doubt that many Iraqis have been killed by stray rounds fired from Iraqi militia rifles. I am also sure that many Iraqis have been killed by stray rounds from US rifles. The difference is one, we are the ones that invaded them. They are the ones defending their city, and as such, there is much more burden on us than on them to be careful not to kill civilians. Second, we are the ones firing 120mm tank cannons, 25mm and 30mm autocannon rounds from Bradleys and Apaches, and 40mm howitzer rounds from AC-130's. All of these do far more collateral damage than stray AK rounds and RPG shrapnel.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

99. It's fair to hold US troops to a double standard...

But it is not fair to claim (as has been done in this discussion) that the U.S. troops are committing "GENOCIDE", or to call them "psychopaths", to claim they are "imitating the Nazis", that our field commanders are "war criminal pure and simple", and that the troops are deliberately lying (as opposed to attributing the differing statements to the fog of war).

If Democrats are unwilling to distinguish between pro-Bush and pro-U.S. military (who are bound by law to follow orders whether they want to or not), how do you expect service members to make that same distinction come election day?

- C.D.

p.s. I doubt the marines are getting seriously into short range situations. If they were, the casualty rate among U.S. troops would be much higher. More likely they have the city cordoned off, the outskirts covered with snipers, and are making brief probes to draw the Sunni militiamen out. They also probably have spotters for the weapons and AC-130s with the larger spreads targeting Iraqi gun nests. Admittedly, that isn't good, but it's still nothing like indiscriminate bombing.

p.p.s. In fact, I would argue that by historical standards, the U.S. military's response in Falluja has been quite careful. Forget the Nazis, look at what the U.S. did in WW2. We would repeatedly firebomb entire cities of Germans and Japanese, killing many hundreds of thousands of civilians because we knew it would keep perhaps a couple hundred American soldiers from being killed. Compared to that, even a hundred civilian deaths is practically nothing.

p.p.p.s If Gore had just been smart enough to ask for a recount of the whole stupid STATE of Florida, or Clinton wise enough to keep his pants zipped when he knew the whole GOP smear machine was after him, we wouldn't even be having this damned discussion.

[Domitan]

49. Even if the military's claim is technically accurate

it is still a horrendous PR defeat for the USA, short-term and long-term.

[tedzbear]

50. The hospital director lying?

Gee. That would be easy for a reporter to check. All he has to do is count the injured people in the hospital beds and see how many are women, children, and old folks, and how many are fighting age men.

Do you really think a hospital director would lie when the proof is all around him?
Remember, Karl Rove only lies when he thinks he can hide the evidence.

[AussieInCA]

79. bushco made it a nogo zone for reporters

but eventually they will have to lift it.

[Zhade]

82. The al Jazeera crew showed LIVE IMAGES of innocents dying.

Another reason to discount the bullshit spin that "only 5%" were innocents.

Anyone who defends these liars and the vile untruths they tell should be utterly ashamed of themselves. Anyone who does so here on DU should rethink why they're even here in the first place.

If and when they do allow reporters in, I'm certain the number will be proved conclusively to be much higher than 5% - and, of course, the few war apologists or sleeper agents here will spin, spin, spin.

Sickening, isn't it?

[IndianaGreen]

61. Let's say someone drops a "precision" 500 pound bomb on your head

You will be precisely dead. Unfortunately, so would anyone standing within 100 yards from you.

One can also point out that we are using armor-piercing depleted uranium munitions against people armed with small arms. The health and environmental damage of using DU will last longer than the memories of this war.

[RapidCreek]

62. No I won't

What idiocy. For Christs fucking sakes! The military just ordered all press to LEAVE. Keeping that in mind...who the hell is lying?

Jesus...pull your head out.

Precise in their firepower? They shoot their OWN...is that precise?

RC

[IndianaGreen]

65. The only reason we know what is going on is due to Al-Jazeera

Al-Jazeera has reporters inside Fallujah. Our brave American reporters prefer to report the daily briefings from Krazy Kimmitt and Likudnik Dan Senor than to go to the field and report what they see and experience.

[RapidCreek]

67. Yep and they're trying to get them out as well.

Gosh I wonder why.

RC

[RapidCreek]

69. and another thing

The Pentagon said there is "only" about 3500 rebels. Guess that leaves us 2900 to go, eh? Kill 2900 more and we'll be clean and green. It'll be time to get the hell outa there. You know...cause of all that precision and shit.

RC

[Joanne98]

72. Nobody called the troops baby-killers.

This is how that spitting-hippie myth started. It's not the troops fault. They are just following orders given to them by civilians, most of whom have never served. They don't have any choice. I doubt if they like what they're being forced to do and they will probably have nightmares the rest of they're lives because of it. But of course, conservatives like you will be sure to cut off their medical benefits, while us traitors liberals will have to spend the next 20 years fighting for them. If you care about the troops. RAISE TAXES ON THE RICH AND THE WAR PROFITEERING CORPORATIONS, so the wounded, and broken boys will at least GET SOME OF THE MONEY THE GREEDY MADE THEM KILL FOR. grrrrrrrrrrrrr

[PATRICK]

75. Listen closely

The actual Iraqi voices of actual refugees from Fallujah- despite the timid cautions by the NPR reporter that they might not hold up- seem utterly genuine and searing on the core content. Actual numbers and atrocities might be argued here and there but what seems to come across is:

snipers have terrorized the population into thinking they are all targets. People have lost family members. Have had a hard time getting out of the city or obtaining subsistence supplies.

Bombs have killed whole families clustered in buildings or near "smart" targets. The hundreds of casualties include many women and children and most certainly civilians not participating in the battles. Bush continues to scramble his omelette with a few more broken eggs.

In any event, ALL the people there believe that and much more and that we are monsters. If we are not terrorizing or avenging, it serves that emotional purpose for someone. Would it were just an attitude and not backed up my more slaughtered innocents. Might I add that the now pretty much lame Israeli excuses sound terribly unprofessional when mouthed my Americans using heavy firepower with no sensitivity to the region.

The house to house advance is treating all citizens as enemies- not potential enemies. They wreck everything and of course one can understand why.

If someone needs to be refreshed on the thousands of slaughtered innocents during "shock and awe"(which did little to actually subdue the real fighters) I am sure an archive of appropriate photos(undoctored, unprettified) can be referred to.

[LibertyorDeath]

83. Hey you really think the amoral slime that is currently in power

would let a few hundred a few thousand or a few hundred thousand

innocent civilians stand in the way of the control of the oil in the middle east. Think again these people are sociopathic for power.

Averis and greed is what they feed on and the corpses of dead children and their mothers just adds spice.

Take a good long look and listen to these fucking creeps you think Wolfowitz or Richard Perele are losing sleep over dead women and children. Don't make me laugh.

I am not attacking the men and women of the American Military I am saying purposely killing innocent civilians in a war zone is a War crime.

It is a crime against Humanity.

A person depraved and devoid of all humanity wanted for sharp shooting in Iraq. Your targets will include Women , Children and men of all ages.

[metisnation]

84. C.D.

The people firing these weapons are not guilty or anything but believing in our leaders. Our troops were midlead on the truth about Iraq and are now fighting in a unjust war brought on by our leaders. These soldiers are just following orders and are brainwashed to believe that they have no other choice. I am going to pray for these young women and men for the blood that was forced upon their hands.

[TimMooring]

91. Where do you think those dead babies on Al Jazeera came from?

The easter bunny? Mother on prozac?

[saigon68]

96. There is NO sniper rifle accurate @ 2 miles

Are you here to stir up trouble?

Your quote


"calling them baby killers based on exceedingly tenuous and unreliable evidence from an obviously biased source."


before I hit the abuse button I just want you to know who did it.

[Barkley]

37. 600 dead !?!?! I thought 'we didn't do body counts'?

I wonder if the U.S. GIs, private contractors and other foreigners feels safer now in Iraq?

[RapidCreek]

63. Well it's sort of difficult to deny when they're stacked up like

cord wood in a soccer field...ya know. Hey....let's get the press the hell out of there...double quick time.

RC

[progressivebydesign]

39. The two-year-old in her father's arms...

.. that was a rebel? She was reported as injured, but looked to be dying. But she was either one of the 5% of NON-rebels, or she was a rebel. These lying, sick bastards. The doctors in what is left of the hospital, and the bodies buried in the football stadium tell the truth.

[IndianaGreen]

66. That soccer stadium is American's first mass grave in Iraq

It should not take us long to match Saddam's number of mass graves. A retired general was saying on Faux yesterday that we should carpet bomb Fallujah with B-52s.

[Joanne98]

73. Remember when Pinochet used a baseball stadium

As an execution center? The Taliban did the same thing. What is it with sports stadiums? Tin foil hat stuff.

[daleo]

98. There is a picture with Bremer and his security guards floating around

I have seen it posted plenty of times, and guess where they are walking - ta da, a soccer stadium. There is something creepy about sports fields and fascists. Although in the case of the George W Bush Commemorative Mass Graveyard in Fallujah, you can't blame the Iraqis for using the sports field as a graveyard - it was their only option.

[daleo]

97. Rename it "George W Bush Commemorative Mass Graveyard"

The Iraqis should keep it that way as a memorial for all time.

[DrWeird]

42. Nazis: "We have captured six million enemy spies.

"... they all happen to be Jewish. They will be shortly tried for espionage."

[Tinoire]

45. Woomph there it is! n/t

[JohnOneillsMemory]

43. Regarding numbers...

Fallujah buries its dead.

Check the president's approval numbers as
Fallujah buries its dead.
What's the death count?
What the hell?
Who knows

How many bodies shattered by munitions.
Or burned away by fire.

Or buried promptly according to custom.
Where ever possible.
At home. In a stadium.
On the side of the road.

Disappear like targets in a video arcade. 'Pop.' All gone.

"The Marines are very good at what they do" said the general.
How fortunate for the coalition of the willing.

No accountability.

No damned numbers.

Not like Enron. We can understand loss in numbers.
But the bodies, like the books, are cooked.

No one we knew.
All gone.

[tedzbear]

46. The Marines are using a Nazi battle technique.

As British historian Mark Mazower explained in Inside Hitler’s Greece: The Experience of Occupation 1941-44: “In the absence of a coherent military strategy for countering the guerrillas, the Wehrmacht relied heavily on policies and standing orders which targeted civilians.... One of the basic assumptions behind German occupation policy was that ‘terror had to be answered with terror’ to force the population to withdraw its support from the insurgents. Although reprisals are often the instinctive response of isolated, frightened and trigger-happy troops in the field, the concept of retribution occupied a special place in the principle of military justice, fixed within the broad framework of social attitudes in the Third Reich, and demanded with all the authority of his office by the Fuhrer himself.”

---WSWS

It may very well be that the collateral damage is Bremer's primary objective, not the actual targets. He wants to teach the Iraqis what happens when they support people who fight back.

:mad:

[frankieT]

64. good post

this is Business As Usual in counter-guerrilla. First developed by colonial empires, then extremely enhanced by Nazis in Occupied Europe and Russia, these techniques were copied in western democratic military schools. reprisal and fear are the main means for the overwhelming power to maintain itself. Saddam Hussein did exactly the same thing when he faced local uprisings. How can you explain that in Algeria France killed 1 million Algerians (from a 10 million population), US killed 1+ million Vietnamese, USSR killed 1+ million Afghan... 90% of them were non-combatant civilians victims of indiscriminate bombings and reprisals.

[LibertyorDeath]

86. tedthebear you got it.. That's exactly what their doing.

[LibDemAlways]

48. The US "response" to the deaths of the four mercenaries has been

criminal. Since when do we participate in collective punishment of a civilian population for the actions of a few? It seems to me that's the very essence of terrorism.

[Zhade]

51. I want this guy's address.

"US marine Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne" needs to see photos of all the dead children with his own eyes.

95% my ass! How much did they give you for your soul, you fuck?

[Th1onein]

52. LIARS!

Sadly to say, "LIARS" defines this administration in history.

I am sure that GWBII is having nightmares tonight, knowing that his presidency will be considered one of the absolute worst in the history of the United States.

I kind of feel sorry for him. He really has no clue, you know?

[Atlanticist]

57. You know, I've thought about this

and I've come to the conclusion that Bush doesn't give a toss (as we say in Britian). Blair looks absolutely haggard at present, and has aged enormously over the last year, and I'm charitably putting this down to late night agonising over Iraq. Meanwhile Bush is out fishing for Billy Bass. I really think Bush is absolutely 100% convinced of the rightness of what he's doing. Show him those Al Jazeera photos and he'll think that they're fake.

[Andrushka]

53. I'm sorry

But, I know we are supposed to 'support the troops' and all that...but I have ceased to have respect for any of the invaders in Iraq at this point. This just makes me physically ill.

[LibertyorDeath]

55. Complete and utter bullshit.....

[Disturbed]

70. A sledghammer to crush a walnut.

that is how a British Officer has describe the US Military methods in
Iraq. He stated that the US Military overuses fire power and kills
more civilians than they say they do. He also stated that one of main reasons that Iraqis are slowly but surely Turning against the the USA and the Occupation is due to the brutal way the US troops are treating the Iraqis, as they deem them untermenchen, sub-humans.

[markus]

74. That's probably how they are keeping their casualties down

and why they suppress civilian casualty reports from Iraq.

If it moves, kill it. If fire comes from it, level it. That's one way to deal with an urban combat environment and minimize U.S. military casualties. It requires, however the willingness to kill a lot of civilians.

What would you do in their shoes? Would you act much differently, especially if that was the operating order?

What is disturbing is the U.S. insistance that only women and children are allowed to evacuate. The only reason for that is that they intend to kill as many military age Fallujans as possible.

That is the logic of the Balkans Genocide, Americanized, sanitized and brought to you by the Bush Junta.

When is someone in the news going to confront them and say: why are you forcing all of the men to remain behind? How does that differ, at the end of the day, from the methods of 19990s ethnic cleansing?

[John_H]

71. Only thirty dead babies. Thank god for precision.

[tlcandie]

92. Ya it's not an unborn fetus or anything .. so it doesn't count...

/sarcasm off

[lebkuchen]

77. Kimmitt said they were also women and children

but it's not his fault. It's the fault of the Iraqis, according to him.

But he says everything is under control now~.

[KAZ]

85. Just change the channel. n/t

n/t

[TimMooring]

90. We're looking more like the israelis all the time

This is confirming the Islamic worlds worst fears about U.S intentions. It's the israeli trooper vs. the Palestinian "terrorists". We just need to start talking about settlements and outposts to make the circle complete. My thoughts are with the freedomfighters of Faluja and the captured Americans. Can you contemplate being in their position? Kissinger says there are no dominos in the region. He must be playing checkers these days. This could easily become a regional conflict if they actually go after Sadr - in a mosque? Throwing gasoline on a fire.

[pinniped]

100. The reason a so-called 95% were military age males is quite obvious.

The military didn't let males leave the area before they decided to kill anything that moves. With the utmost precision I'm sure.:eyes: