Woman deported from U.S. spends first night back in a park

[Judi Lynn]

Woman deported from U.S. spends first night back in a park

By ALEXANDRA OLSON
Associated Press
Published on: 04/06/04

VALENCIA, Venezuela -- For lack of anywhere else to go, Amina Silmi spent her first night in Venezuela in a park, worried sick about the three children she left behind in the United States.

Last week Silmi, 35, was deported to this South American nation after 13 years as an illegal resident in the United States. Her case has outraged the Muslim community in Cleveland, the city she considers her home.

"I'm so depressed right now," she told The Associated Press in a weekend interview, squeezing a crumpled napkin she used to wipe her tearstained face. "I don't know when I'll see my kids again. I can't think. I can't do anything."

The thin, raven-haired woman said she has no friends or family in a country she hasn't seen in more than a decade. She has no idea where to look for a job or a home.
(snip)

Silmi's supporters, including Ohio Rep. Dennis Kucinich, had lobbied U.S. Department of Homeland Security Chief Tom Ridge, arguing that a "zealous interpretation" of immigration laws was breaking a family apart.
(snip/...)

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/0404/06deported.html

[FarLeftRage]

1. That's the good ol'

gop "family values" for ya...

Breaking 'em up and shipping Ma off and leaving the kids behind...

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[MSgt213]

4. Who's taking care of the kids?

[Judi Lynn]

6. According to the linked article, it's her sister who is helping

(snip)
In Ohio, a sister is looking after her children: Haiat Awad, 12; Fida Salti, 6; and Belal Salti, 5. They are U.S. citizens. Silmi let them stay because she didn't want to drag them into destitution with her.
(snip)

It's a heavy burden, emotionally, as she knows her sister won't be able to ask to be allowed to return to the States for TEN YEARS. She will be looking after some heart-broken kids, due to _Bush's half-witted, half-@$$ed, laughable politics.

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. What is your solution?

Should all illegal immigrants be allowed to stay?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[Muddleoftheroad]

38. Like I said

Sooner or later, you have to say no. No matter when that is, someone will say that.

I am not without compassion for the woman. Frankly, immigrants are the backbone of America, so I think we should do all we can to accommodate the best and brightest.

But we have to have limits.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Not "sooner or later".

Sooner. At the border. When they get caught. Or maybe after getting in, if they haven't already managed to stay years and build a family. Those children are being punished by the incompetence of the INS.

Justice, man, Justice. Justice is not, and has never been, following the law blindly.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Not just at the border

Breaking the law doesn't stop there. You don't get a free pass because you got away from the border police.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

58. I did say later too. (nt)

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. You did say "maybe"

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[saigon68]

134. adios

[liberalhistorian]

89. Oh, really?

Come on, this woman has been in this country for over a decade, she's hardly a fly-by-night, wet-behind-the-ears immigrant who's only been here a few weeks or months. And the kids are AMERICAN CITIZENS who deserve to have their own mother with them. What kind of country are we to do that to a family? And how can you possibly support it? Yes, I agree, there do need to be limits but not in this particular situation.

[Muddleoftheroad]

106. So where do you set the limits?

How many years? How many kids? How many laws can you break?

[Scairp]

121. Excuse me

But she has children who are American citizens. They cannot be deported but their mother can? They are juveniles and the law should make allowances for an illegal parent to stay in this country to raise her minor children. This in nonsense, and I cannot believe you think this case was handled appropriately. You have no heart.

[Muddleoftheroad]

126. You need to read the rest of the thread

[Scairp]

129. I did

You're not nice.

[Muddleoftheroad]

131. How so?

I said she shouldn't be deported if her children are Americans.

I also said she shouldn't be rewarded for 13 years of criminal behavior.

[Maat]

153. This confuses me.

Pre-Bush....we used to keep mothers with their children, if their children were American citizens. Anything less than keeping Mom and Dad here is unconscionable, as far as I'm concerned.

[SemperEadem]

157. they now can go through the mill of DFS, split up and sent

to 3 different homes...

As long as this country cloaks itself in "family values", this is bs.

they used to break up the families of black slaves in this country, too---snatch the children from their mothers to sell them off into slavery on another plantation. Seems like old habits die hard, especially when attitudes become institutionalized.

[Fovea]

42. There should be a statute of limitations on deportation

of such persons. To keep a person deportable for a decade
is a worse oppression to freedom and human dignity than indentured servitude, and tantamount to slavery.

These folks work on the margins of our society for years, then we ship them back.

Surely you can see that?
Or are you advocating that their
economic servitude remain structural?

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Why a statute of limitiations

She broke the law on an ongoing basis for years. Her crime was not a one-time event. She broke the law and then continued to conceal her crime and deceive authorities.

My suggestion is that we focus on fixing immigration. But no matter what, there will always be cases like this and, quite frankly, we can't just let everybody in. Again, resources -- including jobs -- are limited.

But I despise the exploitation of illegal immigrants, so we should move to fix the problem.

[Fovea]

62. Because even serfs in the middle ages

were considered free after breathing town air for a year.
American slaves were free (and living under such a cloud she was not free) if they crossed into a free state.

Her crime was not the same sort of crime as ongoing extortion.
What you are suggesting is not a crime, but a taint.

I agree, we cannot let everyone in, but once someone has been in over 5 years, humanity argues that you do not hound them forever. I am not a monotheist, but a monotheist might argue that your approach is far more similar to the pharisees than to the Christian messiah.

This core concept goes all the way back to English Civil law.
Of course, so does the medical necessity defense, and we just lost that too.

[Muddleoftheroad]

66. Not a crime?

How many crimes did she commit in those 13 years to prevent being discovered? How many documents did she falsify? School records? Medical records? Job records?

She broke the law. While I advocate a big change in the law, there will always be immigrants who break the law and no, we should not allow it.

[Fovea]

73. When you pass a law against living

only the dead are law abiding.

I seriously suggest you do a bit of research on systems of social control as a discipline of political science. All immigration policies are routed in such theories.

Also, your pre-judicial presumption of her criminality invalidates your point so thoroughly, that I am not at all sure further discussion on this with you has any real merit.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

74. It does have merit

It gives us all insight into one particular mindset. This, I consider useful.

[Muddleoftheroad]

79. My "pre-judicial presumption of her criminality"

Well, she was her illegally and was deported. So, my view is POST-judicial.

Do you accept that we have the right to make laws that limit immigration or not?

[Fovea]

139. If you re read your previous post

you say that she obviously committed other crimes beside her choice of residence. Do you agree that that is your statement or not? If you read my previous post to that, you will know that I agree that we have the right to put limits on immigration.

So, do you agree that you were prejudicially accusing her of other crimes or not?

[Muddleoftheroad]

147. No I am not being prejudicial

On her own, it would be fairly possible to not continue to break the law. But as a parent of children, she has many forms she has to fill out that require information and many include citizenship.

[liberalhistorian]

91. So, we punish three children,

three AMERICAN CITIZENS, because of that legalistic, strict, law-and-order repuke bullshit. That's true family values for you, I guess. That sounds like Javert in Les Miserables, frankly. The law is the law, whether the law is right or wrong, and the hell with the people.

[Muddleoftheroad]

107. No we don't

If they are American citizens, then as I have said elsewhere, we don't deport her. However, she is a criminal, so we certainly don't make her a citizen either.

[liberalhistorian]

115. Oh, yeah, she's right up there

with murderers, rapists, and the like. But she must be worse, because we keep them in this country and deport her. And she is of Palestinian origin, too, you know, which makes her suspect right there, I guess.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

119. THIS JUST IN: JCCyC GOES OFF THE DEEP END OVER THIS!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1354041

[liberalhistorian]

120. No, you didn't go off the deep end,

you're doing what we all should be doing, finding solutions and offering help ourselves, not just bitching about things!!!!!

Muddle, how about THAT for a "solution?" Or, would you have him committed for "harboring a criminal?"

[Muddleoftheroad]

122. Is he offering to marry her?

And make her a citizen? That would also ensure she was protected financially.

And if he wishes to do this, more power to him!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

130. Already married.

Just give some food and shelter and a situation where she's able to rebuild her life and raise her children. You know, fish, fishing rod, etc.

[Muddleoftheroad]

132. It still sound like one hell of an offer

And props to you if you go through with it.

[DiverDave]

133. He lives in Brazil.

And the offer is the kindest thing I've seen in a while.
I may be able to help with some cash, PM me.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

135. Reserve the cash, don't send it just yet

First step is finding mom, kids, and see if all like the idea.

Anyone knows a dweller of Caracas, Venezuela?

[Cronus Protagonist]

143. What a nasty, unhumane position you are taking

Are you sure you belong here?

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

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[private_ryan]

24. you have a point

she is breaking the law and they have to the right to remove her, but common sense should prevail. She has threee kids and the "crime" wasn't murder or rape; we have millions and millions like her.

[The Stranger]

27. The "law" is being applied selectively, which is unlawful, especially

when it is applied selectively to certain religious or ethnic groups. The poster has no point.

(Next time, please don't be so easily dissuaded. Stick to your guns.)

[private_ryan]

127. huh?

the law says that anyone illegally here should be deported. Very simple since you want to argue that point. You can't steal and claim "Kenny Boy stole too and he's free" if you get caught.

[The Stranger]

144. The question isn't whether "Kenny Boy stole too."

The question is why "Kenny Boy who stole too" is not being prosecuted, while someone of a particular ethnicity and religion is being prosecuted.

I don't know how to make this any simpler.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. Millions and millions like her

Like I said, we need to solve the immigration issue once and for all, but there will always be violators.

[The Stranger]

26. It appears that certain "illegal immigrants" are being targetted.

In the linked story, this "illegal immigrant" was born to Palestinian parents.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

41. Of couse not. Put down the straw man.

Not all illegal immigrants have children in the destination country. A single Mexican who decided to break into the USA to try to earn dollars waiting tables, if found and deported, wouldn't be an abomination like tearing a mother apart from her children.

Justice means looking at each case and doing what's right. Do you believe the right thing was done in this case?

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. That is not our fault

She chose to leave without her children.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

48. Some choice. (nt)

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. For the record, she also chose to break the law in the first place

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. In this case, the "law" deserves exactly as much respect

as the salt laws in India at Gandhi's time.

No, I'm wrong. Make it LESS.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Not familiar with salt laws

But why not respect immigration laws?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

69. Because they caused... THIS!!!!

See my post about solutions. Fine her. Make her do community service. Heck, throw her out after the youngest kid turns 18.

But this, this is way way WAY over the line. It's EVIL, plain and simple.

[treepig]

77. have you ever broken a law?

for example, here are some laws in alabama that i suspect many residents have broken (see http://www.dumblaws.com/states/index.html for other states)

It is illegal for a driver to be blindfolded while operating a vehicle.

Dominoes may not be played on Sunday - DOES BREAKING THIS LAW, FOR EXAMPLE, DESERVE DEPORTATION?

It is illegal to wear a fake moustache that causes laughter in church.

Putting salt on a railroad track may be punishable by death.

Boogers may not be flicked into the wind.

It is legal to drive the wrong way down a one-way street if you have a lantern attached to the front of your automobile.

You must have windshield wipers on your car.

You may not have an ice cream cone in your back pocket at any time.

Masks may not be worn in public.

Men may not spit in front of the opposite sex.

Women are able to retain all property they owned prior to marriage in the case of divorce. However, this provision does not apply to men.


Children of incestuous couples are deemed legitimate.

Interracial couples may not marry. (Repealed)

Pool halls may not be operated between 11:30 PM and 6 AM.

No billiard hall may operate a trap-door to a place where persons gather for "immoral purposes".

No persons may sell "blow-out nuts".

It is illegal to stake a horse on a highway.

Hunting is not allowed on Sunday.

Sex toys are banned throughout the state.

Solitaire may not be played on Sundays.

let's randomly select another state, Montana - i'm pretty sure everyone there is a many-time repeat criminal:

It is illegal to have a sheep in the cab of your truck without a chaperone.

It is a felony for a wife to open her husband's mail.

It is a misdemeanor to show movies that depict acts of felonious crime.

In Montana, it is illegal for married women to go fishing alone on Sundays, and illegal for unmarried women to fish alone at all.

It is illegal for a man and a woman to have sex in any other position other than missionary style.

Seven or more indians are considered a raiding or war party and it is legal to shoot them.

Prostitution is considered a "crime against the family".

One may not pretend to abuse an animal in the presence of a minor.

[Muddleoftheroad]

80. Are you trying to compare immigration laws with those?

So you are saying that the nation doesn't have any right to limit immigration?

[treepig]

82. i'm saying your insistence

on enforcing the letter of the law is bizarre

[Muddleoftheroad]

84. Letter of the law?

Thirteen years of criminal acts is not exactly the letter. Nor am I saying we should deport her if her children are indeed American citizens. However, we should not turn our back at the many criminal acts she has likely committed.

[treepig]

86. you think 13 years is bad?

it pains me to admit it, but i'm friends with a couple in montana in which the wife has been opening her husband's mail on a daily basis since about 1980 - that's 24 years!!

in reference to:

It is a felony for a wife to open her husband's mail.


also, i've noticed that the 2-plex in the town where they live almost continually shows "movies that depict acts of felonious crime" in direct conflict with this law:

It is a misdemeanor to show movies that depict acts of felonious crime.

further, they've been doing so since (at least) the 1970's or 30 years!!


believe me, i'm about ready to break all contact with these outlaws, and their thumb-their-collective-noses-at-authority mentality.

[Muddleoftheroad]

108. Crime

Well, your first instance is disturbing. I have no idea of the circumstances, but I bet the Postal Service would grandfather her in under the right situation. However, that's not even a mild federal crime. It's big time.

What law is the theater breaking?

[liberalhistorian]

95. He/she reminds me very

much of Javert in Les Miserables!

"And so it has been and so it is written on the doorways of paradise that those who falter and those who fall must pay the price, no matter what!"

[Muddleoftheroad]

109. No matter what?

She broke the law, likely on an ongoing basis for 13 years. That is not a mild problem, nor is it the theft of bread. She chose to enter the U.S. illegally. We did not kidnap her.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

88. "any right to limit"... please.

This must be the 190,256,760,175,309,174th time you raise THAT particular straw man. Give it a break, now, willya?

[Muddleoftheroad]

110. And your answer is yes then

So the question is not whether doing so is wrong, the question is about where those limits are set. No matter where we set them, we will inevitably antagonize someone. And someone will claim it is unfair.

[liberalhistorian]

94. Oh, for God's sakes,

what kind of a choice did she have? She knows no one at all in Venezuela, has no family or friends there, no job, no home, no money, she hasn't been there in well over a decade and has no clue how to go about things, can't even take care of herself, why the hell would she drag her children into that, especially since they are AMERICAN CITIZENS???

Jesus H. Christ, I can't believe anyone would consider that any kind of a choice at all. Of course, she is also of Palestinian origin, so I have to wonder if that has anything at all to do with it. Nah, couldn't be, could it??????????????????????

[Muddleoftheroad]

111. She had a choice

She made that choice 13 years ago. Again, if her children are indeed American citizens, I have said we should not deport her. But she is a criminal and should not be rewarded for that.

[Fovea]

155. Yes, of course Muddle...

they should just starve on the streets of Caracas, and diminish the surplus population.

Watch out for that wicked golden rule.

[TahitiNut]

68. Strawman bullshit.

It seems interesting that illegal immigrants that're the source of cheap labor for profiteers receive a lot of tolerance (lots of "blind eyes" being turned) while someone with children to care for (no profit there, though, huh?) is deported and separated from those children. This is a clear case of misplaced priorities, imho.

[Muddleoftheroad]

70. No tolerance from me

As you can see elsewhere in the thread.

[liberalhistorian]

96. Laws are

MAN-MADE, subject to HUMAN whims and current social structures. "What is LEGAL and the LAW is NOT always moral. DO NOT confuse the two, they are NOT the same thing." I remember that being drilled into me during my paralegal training by our professors. And truer words were never spoken!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

101. Really?

Then your teachers were commie pinko traitorous dirtbags who want the INS extinguished and America the Great flooded with Saddam-lovin' Mexicans who smell bad and will live on welfare and traffick child porn while riding their Cadillacs!!! </sarcasm>

[Muddleoftheroad]

112. Laws are never perfect

But if we let all immigrants in who have sob stories, then we let all immigrants in. No matter where you set limits, you are denying immigration to some who would be better off if you let them in.

[SemperEadem]

156. isn't bush behind allowing illegal immigrants to stay in the us and work?

[KDLarsen]

2. Compassionate Conservative..

... my ass!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

3. This is an issue that Kerry should jump on and run with...

...because it's just one more indicator that we have a faceless uncaring dictatorship illegally occupying the centers of power in Washington DC. They just don't care what happens to the little people.

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. We need to work out a solution for immigration

But to complain about how you were treated when you were in the U.S. illegally shows a bit of hubris.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

7. Did we read the same piece? She didn't complain. Not once.

However, I'm sure Michael Savage would agree with your assessment.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. Yuck

Michael Savage is a xenophobic dick. And the mere fact that there is an article about her indicates both her complaint and her involvement in trying to change her status via media coverage.

[JNelson6563]

11. It's true, he'd agree with you

So how do you feel about that?

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. I see lots of complaints, no solutions

Illegal immigrants are here illegally. If we allow ALL illegal immigrants to stay, then we run into both job and resource issues.

So clearly, not all of them can stay. So then the question is how you handle it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

65. You want solutions? What about this?

A fine. Community service. In generous amounts, if you will.

As for people who are similarly caught but don't have a family problem like that, OK, no problem deporting like it's done right now.

Different circumstances usually require different actions. That's life.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. A light sentence encourages others to do the same

No matter what, we should go to great lengths to fix the overall problem.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

76. What part of "generous amounts" don't you understand? (nt)

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. Community service is ALWAYS a light sentence

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. Not if it's long.

It's not my fault if some people are satisfied by nothing except suffering.

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. Again, the original ILLEGAL act was hers, not mine

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. THE LAW STINKS. THE LAW PROMOTED GROSS INJUSTICE.

How hard is that to admit?

[Muddleoftheroad]

114. Immigration laws don't stink

This woman broke the law 13 years ago entering illegally. We should encourage work visas and let people enter that way. At the same time, we should then treat anyone entering illegally as criminals.

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

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[Muddleoftheroad]

123. Halo?

I don't ever claim one.

[DiverDave]

12. Have a heart

this ain't just one or ten single illegals...it's a mother separated from her kids, American citizens too.
So, yes, I agree that your talking point is a bit to the right.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. Well, it appears she CHOSE to separate from her kids

She broke the law for 13 years. Yes, it sucks, but there are 6 billion people in the world and we don't have room, resources or jobs for all of them. So if they ALL come here, we have to deport them.

That's not right wing, that's logic.

[Malva Zebrina]

16. By that logic, her children should be deported also

[DiverDave]

20. So you advocate sending the

kids to live in the park with her?
You got a problem with your humanity.
I truly don't see your point at all, course I have empathy for the least among us.

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. Not sure of their citizenship

But yes, either all four or none.

[KinkyDem]

43. I am certain of their citizenship

She came here 13 years ago.

The eldest is 12. That would mean he was born here. It would appear that ALL three were born here.

Muddle, by your own logic, by your own statement you MUST now retract EVERYTHING else you have said in this thread.

The kids are citizens. They were born on US soil. To quote you "either all four or none." So are you now for deporting citizens because they are minors and thier parents commited a crime?

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Depends

Were they born here? Did she ever leave the U.S. for instance? If so, then they are U.S. citizens. However, it is not unheard of for pregnant women to come across the border seeking U.S. citizenship for her child. Should that automatically confer citizenship on the mother as well?

Yes, I said four or none. Because deporting the mother of three citizens is silly. However, as I also said, no matter what you choose in each case, sooner or later, you must say no in many. And that seems to be something most here don't wish to hear.

[liberalhistorian]

100. HER CHILDREN ARE ALL

AMERICAN CITIZENS, THEY WERE ALL BORN HERE! And dragging your children into exreme poverty with you when you have no home, no money, no job, and you can't even take care of yourself, is NO CHOICE AT ALL! God, am I glad you were never one of my teachers or policemen or parents or any other authority figure.

[Mari333]

17. and Jesus says:

"whatever you do to the least of my brethren, you do unto me."


"better a man have a millstone put around his neck and be cast into the sea then harm even one hair on one of these children's heads".

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. Lots of comments, no solutions

The trend continues. We don't have resources for the entire world, so wherever we set limits, there will be issues.

[KinkyDem]

45. all four or none, Muddle

that's what you said.

Those children are citizens.

You are back peddling.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. No backpeddling at all

Assuming they are citizens, it is silly to send her back. That doesn't mean we shouldn't work to change the situation.

Frankly, the whole birth lottery is silly. If you aren't a citizen, you shouldn't be able to break the law, sneak across the border and suddenly have children who are.

But, unless we fix that, these kids are apparently as American as you and I.

[FlaGranny]

21. Sometimes

you show little humanity or compassion. That is a cold-hearted thing to say. Every rule needs an exception or two.

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. Exceptions

No matter how you look at it, I imagine EVERY immigrant or would-be immigrant has a sad story to tell.

And no matter how many exceptions you make, you can't make them all. So sooner or later, you end up being an SOB.

[KinkyDem]

47. All four or none, Muddle

You go explain it to those kids.

They are citizens and so should their mother be too.

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. No she shouldn't

She can apply, but she shouldn't automatically get citizenship.

[liberalhistorian]

116. Sometimes?

Only SOMETIMES?

[Dogmudgeon]

22. What a crap argument

The woman is being made an example. Uncle Sam has given one of the little 'uns a good whuppin' to keep the others in line.

A HUGE amount of illegal immigration is fueled by businesses which are protected by their political connections; various well-heeled Asian underworld crime syndicates bring more illegal immigrants which they hold in indenture before turning them loose to the tender mercies of the INS/DHS.

Singling out an ethnic Arab woman with three kids is just plain cruelty, to be used in a PR campaign of machismo. It's just ain't American.

You want a sane immigration policy? Throw a couple of the rich scumbags -- who buy and sell human beings -- into some rough prisons. THEN, and only then, will I listen to this self-righteous "she broke the law" crap.

--bkl

[FlaGranny]

23. The idea seems to be punish the little

guy, reward the big guy, doesn't it? The law must be upheld for mothers, but not for corporate thieves.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Sure

Let's make it easy to show companies are or are not obeying the law hiring illegals. Then, if they violate it, lock them up. I'm more than OK with that.

[KinkyDem]

49. but in the mean time

punish the children of day laborers to make yourself feel better about all them forners.

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. Actually, in the meantime

Let's fix immigration and the INS at the same time. It's long overdue.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

154. If the shoe fits....

THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK.

An article about someone does not make a facile argument that the subject has instigated the article. Such assumptions and allegations are usually the purview of the RW talk show hosts.

A mother seperated from her children by our gov't is tantamount to Hitleresque tactics of the 1940's. I choose not to condone such actions. You choose to condone and defend these racist actions.

Your ancestors would be ashamed of such behavior.

[foreigncorrespondent]

28. Then how about I complain...

...about how I was treated in the U.S. by a government facility, when I was there LEGALLY?

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. How were you treated?

[foreigncorrespondent]

75. Basically...

...I was forced to leave the country after the INS MISQUOTED their own immigration laws and refused a visitors visa extension. My immigration lawyer has since taken them to court and won the case, but the trouble is, I already have that mark against my name, and am unable to step foot back in the U.S. Back into my partners country to see her.

I don't know if you know how the visa system works there or not, Muddle, but basically, you apply for an extension, and then you stay there and wait until you receive approval or denial of that extension. Guess what? They got me for a four month overstay, even though it wasn't my fault, and I was well with in my rights.

Tearing families apart because someone is there legally or not, isn't going to solve the illegal immigration problems the U.S. has. And yes, Muddle, I do consider Sappho and I as family, and our family was torn apart.

[dfong63]

142. this is an issue Kerry should steer clear of

... because it's not a clear-cut one that will win votes.

i'd wager that a majority of Americans agree more with muddle than with jccyc.

[qb]

18. If the U.S. wants to crack down on illegal immigrants

They should concentrate on a more effective border policy. People who have been here long enough to have kids should be allowed to stay.

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. We have huge unpatroled borders

What would you suggest?

[qb]

60. Nothing. I was just saying IF the US is serious, they should

focus on illegal immigrants as they cross the border rather than deporting someone who's been building a life and a family here for years.

I imagine this could be done by increasing border guards and video/satellite surveillance. It will never be 100% effective, but it can be improved.

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. I think it has to be two-pronged

We know there are jobs here for immigrants, so a work visa program should lighten the illegal immigration.

But then illegal immigrants need to be treated much more strictly. And those who import them MUCH more strictly.

[madrchsod]

19. it`s so simple

just build a big concrete wall across the southern border, place electronic sensors across the northern border,and search every ship and boat that comes within a mile of our waters. that way we are assured that women like these can`t get into this country. that will mean more jobs in the lower economic scale so even walmart will look like a great place to work..america for americans.

[cap]

25. Perhaps, if we fined employers with really big fines

and enforced the collection of those fines, we could cut down on illegal immigration.

Illegal immigration goes down significantly in hard economic times so if illegals can't find jobs they go home.

[nolabels]

37. What ever did happen to them Raygun Era laws?

Them ones that said the employers would get fined $5,000 for each they had.

A lot of Latinos that were already citizens once saw them laws as a good idea.

My guess, would be that a lot of them now just see them as racist trash promulgated by republicans.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. There are all kinds of vultures who import illegal immigrants by the

hundreds to work in agriculture, restaurants, or domestic service, but they usually get a slap on the wrist. If they got confiscatory fines (a couple hundred thousand PLUS the difference between minimum wage and the $2-$3/hour they paid the illegals per person per hour, hopefully enough to put them out of business), we'd see a lot less illegal immigration. But the employers are usually well-connected, sometimes "upstanding citizens" in their communities. That was certainly true of the agribusiness types in Oregon who hired illegals.

Your luck with immigration depends a lot on which office has charge of your case. For a while, Portland was notorious for summary deportation of people who had made honest mistakes. It was so bad that Asian companies in Oregon advised their visiting executives and consultants to fly in through Seattle or San Francisco to avoid getting sent back for trivial reasons. (There were no interpreters on duty, but new arrivals who didn't speak a word of English were sent back for "refusing to answer questions.")

The Asian-American newspaper in Portland had a whole collection of horror stories like this, but after all, it was "just" Asians complaining. Even Delta Airlines pulling its Asian flights from Portland didn't phase the INS office.

This high-handedness went on until the German-born wife of an American citizen found out that she had been given wrong information about which visa she needed and went to Portland to straighten it out. She was immediately put on a plane back to Germany, forced to leave behind her husband and the 13-month-old baby that she was still nursing.

The thought of a white European with a nursing baby being treated that shabbily finally caused a public outcry. The INS director wrote that the public should thank him for "keeping terrorists out of the country," but since the people deported had been Taiwanese grandmothers, Japanese teenagers, Korean engineering consultants, and others of that ilk, no one bought it.

Forgive me if I'm skeptical about the "pure" motives of the INS. All too often, their actions have been similar to that of a police department that takes payments to look away from Mafia activities while occasionally placating the public's "fear of crime" with crackdowns on panhandling.

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. The INS is a horribly run part of government

The solution in some way is a work visa. That would force employers to register employees and vice versa. Failing that, I agree with your plan for horrendous fines.

[Dogmudgeon]

72. Prison for Slavers

Start with these groups:

Agri-biz "outlaw" companies
Manual labor sweatshops
Cosa Nostra (Sicilian/Italian)
Tong (Chinese)
Yakuza (Japanese)
Russian "Maffiya"
Israeli mobsters
Jamaican mob
(and any others I have neglected)

Bust 'em, grab the slavemasters, put 'em on trial, and lock 'em away until they die.

At that point, it will make sense to think about putting the hammer down on the individuals desparate to get into the USA.

As for "the borders" (that is, the border with Mexico and Mexico alone), most of the illegal activity through the borders is run by illicit groups and shady companies. The guest slaves arrive with no scrutiny given to their pimps. Most of the border police understand the situation well, and spend a lot of their time doing rescue work rather than apprehension.

Lately, our immigration policy has been producing atrocities at an alarming rate, including several returnees who faced torture and death when they were returned home. We currently only recognize asylum requests from escapees of Communist countries as valid.

Muddle, I agree that we need to have a well-thought-out immigration policy, but probably 90% of the abuses are coming from human vermin whose lucrative shipments of human chattles are waved through Customs with a wink and a smile.

--bkl

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

113. Every state has mobsters

and anyone who has seen ANY of my posts knows I have no tolerance for mobsters of any stripe.

[liberalhistorian]

117. Unless they're

Israeli or under the guise of "defending Israel from terrorism."

[Muddleoftheroad]

124. No Israeli mobsters defend Israel from terrorism

That is the job of the IDF -- one they do quite well thankfully.

[Dogmudgeon]

160. Woah, Nellie!

I wasn't trying to start an I/P subthread here -- it's just that in Philly, we have a nice little cell of mobsters from Israel who have also gotten in bed with the American branch of the Russian Maffiya. I had to deal with some of them in the 1980s, when they first came over, and I was in the insurance business. They were into insurance fraud, drug trafficking -- and immigrant indenture.

Keep in mind, also, that they were not acting as agents of Israel or representing Judaism -- they were scumbags who happened to be, incidentally, from Israel.

The I/P stuff is a whole 'nother series of issues.

--bkl

[Kadie]

56. Family values.

They preach one thing, then tear a mother away from her children. Just watch, if she finds a way to get back home to her kids someone will come along and charge her for abandoning her kids when she was forced out of the country.

This is just crazy.

[The Stranger]

78. Has no one noticed the part about her being a Palestinian and Muslim?

That appears to be the reason why she is a special case. These are the people being rounded up by the I.N.S. and the Department of "Homeland Security."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

90. I have noticed

But refrained from mentioning that because (a) it is not necessary for grasping the evilness of that event and (b) I don't want mod warnings.

[The Stranger]

99. "Mod warnings?"

[treepig]

97. exactly, if what she's done is such a terrible crime

explain why the other 8 million illegal immigrants aren't being treated likewise, instead they're being offered amnesty!!

Saying the United States needs an immigration system "that serves the American economy and reflects the American dream," President Bush Wednesday outlined an plan to revamp the nation's immigration laws and allow some eight million illegal immigrants to obtain legal status as temporary workers.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.immigration/

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

128. Amnesty

Is periodically given to illegal immigrants from certain nations. As a matter of both diplomacy and reality, America has better relations with some nations than others. As such, we have at times worked out an amnesty.

Frankly, I think we should fix immigration once and for all. It is long overdue.

Then, anyone entering the U.S. illegally should be treated as criminals and not just deported.

Among the fixes:

* Work visas for native born residents of friendly nations (Canada and Mexico for starters.)
* Changes in citizenship laws so that non-citizens who live in the U.S. can't give birth to children who are automatically citizens. (They would have to prove an American parent to the child.)
* Strict fines and jail time for anyone continuing to employ illegal immigrants.

[liberalhistorian]

92. I live near Cleveland, where the papers

have been following this in detail, and I assure you that there is more to the story than this and that deporting this woman is no less than a CRIME! Her deportation is the REAL crime, and those children are the ones who'll be paying for it the most thanks to the repuke version of "family values!" :puke: :puke: :puke: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

105. I would gladly contribute to a fund

For helping this poor woman and give the kids regular trips to and fro to see their mother. Has anyone had this idea yet?

I do know there is at least one Venezuelan DUer.

Heck, what about proposing a neat propaganda coup for Hugo Chávez himself? He'd LOVE to be the humanitarian, kind leader and rub it in The USA Administration's face!

If I was him, I'd host her, kids and all, at the presidential palace itself!!!

Edited for presidential palace idea.

[nolabels]

125. Doesn't Venezuela have a embassy in the US

Hugo could give her job there, wouldn't that be a P.R. bullseye?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

137. PING ChavezSpeaksTheTruth

Yeah, I know, he's not actually in Venezuela, I'm just hoping he knows someone.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

140. Unfortunately I have no clout in Venezuela

I'd pull strings if I could

[icymist]

136. Compassionate conservatism

This is Compassionate Conservatism don't 'cha know!

[Judi Lynn]

138. To JCCYC, I'm still reading this thread, and have read down to #120

to discover what you're thinking about this woman's tragic situation.

I posted the first article I had seen on the story on April 2:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=459050

The link in the opening post has her sister in Cleveland's name in it, and may give a tiny bit more information.

Thank you.

[Fire_Wire]

141. Don't come back ... :)

A Muslim born in Venezuela to Palestinian parents. -- snip -- When she was 20, she married a local Arab man who she said beat her.-- snip --Silmi's second husband was deported to Palestine in December, after being convicted of trafficking in food stamps.

"Silmi and her children had been living in a tidy rented house in Lakewood. They received food stamps and Social Security benefits for Belal, who is mildly autistic.

But Silmi never took the steps to obtain legal residency, "

http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1075982140305081.xml

A decade as a free rider I should pay for more of this ?

[Judi Lynn]

146. You'd be doing yourself a favor to keep up with the reading

She came here with her family (mom and dad) when she was 21. As she was TWENTY ONE YEARS OLD, she was not included in their visa. Had she been a year younger, there would never have been a problem.

Democrats don't harbor bitter hatred for the unfortunate in this world.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

149. The article says her husband's problem with illegal food stamps

happened before they were married.

While you're worried about the demands on your salary imposed by the government, what do you think about corporate welfare, and bogus wars?

What does the president of Venezuela have to do with this woman's predicament?

What does "Good luck in Venezuela" mean?

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

150. Good luck with your stay here! ;- )

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

158. Wow! Another Michael Savage fan!

[Judi Lynn]

145. More on Amina Silmi:

Background:
An ethnic Palestinian woman, Amina Silmi, was born in
Venezuela of parents who were refugees from Palestine
in the 1950's. Ms. Silmi will be taken into custody
to be deported to Venezuela on Wednesday, February 4.
Her deporation will mean separation from her 3
US-born children (who are US citizens). She has been
in the US for 13 years. She has suffered and survived
physical abuse from one, and then another husband in
that time. She has no way of taking care of herself
and her children in Venezuela. She has done nothing
wrong here in the US, other than remaining on an
expired visa. She has tried various times to apply for
and obtain permanent legal status. She was
unsuccessful due to a combination of mistakes by
attorneys representing her and bureaucratic
deadlines and Catch-22's in the Immigration and
Naturalization Service (now called Immigration and
Customs Enforcement, or ICE). Now there is little
legal remedy that would provide immediate protection
from this forced "voluntary departure."
(snip)

http://www.payk.net/mailingLists/iran-news/html/current/msg00335.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This article says two of the kids have mild disabilities:

Haiat Awad is 12 years old, but her determined, self-assured manner shows a maturity far beyond her years. Disciplining Belal, her five-year-old brother, and Fida, her six-year-old sister, who both have mild disabilities, hasn't been easy since the government took their mother away last month.

Haiat Awad: Go pick it up Belal. 'No, you're not my mom.' I'm like, 'Listen to me!' and he's like, 'No, you're not my mom!'

The kids' mom, Amina Silmi, is now in jail, leaving young Haiat and her siblings in the care of Silmi's sister. The fathers of the children are long gone. Silmi is charged with overstaying her visitor's visa. The possibility of leaving behind three American children makes her case heartbreaking, says Julia Shearson, director of the Cleveland Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Julia Shearson: To have no mother and no father, I think it is just the opposite of what we say about family values.

Silmi has indicated that, if deported, her children will remain in the U.S., where she feels they'll get better care for their disabilities. An immigration court denied her appeal, as did a federal appeals court. Silmi faces deportation at any time. For Shearson, a permanent family break-up would be tragic.

Julia Shearson: Nothing is more valuable to this family than to keep them together. At least keep whatever remnant is left, at least keep that intact.
(snip/...)

http://www.wcpn.org/news/2004/01_03/0323immigration.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mom Facing Deportation Leaves Kids With Sister
She Cannot Return To U.S. For 10 Years

UPDATED: 2:35 PM EST February 4, 2004

LAKEWOOD, Ohio -- A woman who has lived in the United States for 11 years on an expired visitor visa surrendered this morning in Cleveland to await deportation to Venezuela.


Amina Silmi sobbed quietly, and hugged her three American-born children and called the situation "so sad." She plans to leave the children, ages 12, 6 and 5, with her sister in North Olmsted.


She carried an American flag and gripped the hands of her children as she turned herself in at the Federal Building in downtown Cleveland.



Silma moved to the United States from Venezuela 13 years ago.


Immigrations spokesman Greg Palmore said Silmi will be held until she can be placed on a plane for Venezuela. Palmore said Silmi is barred from returning to the U.S. for 10 years for failing to obey a 2001 order to leave.
(snip/...)

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2816513/detail.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Silmi's three children, ages 12, 6 and 5, are staying with her sister, Silmi said. The children are U.S. citizens. She said she thought her former husband had taken care of her paperwork. She said she left him after years of domestic violence. He has since been deported.

"My parents were Palestinian, and I have no family or friends in Venezuela," Silmi said. "I have a home I rent in Lakewood. I have nothing in Venezuela."
(snip)

"I'm very scared," Silmi said. "I've never been in jail before in my life. Even people in the jail, the women here, have been so kind. Everyone is praying for me. Everyone wants me to be able to go home with my children."

She said that she hopes she is allowed to stay in the country.

"I just got my GED and want to work on getting an associate degree," Silmi said. "I know a lot of women don't do college and wait for a miracle to arrive. I want to be something and I want to be an American."
(snip/)

http://www.vindy.com/local_news/295462029549401.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ETC.

Quality in people really comes through loud and clear, doesn't it?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

151. The INS is getting more hard-nosed all-around, even for visitors and

immigrants from "friendly" countries. The new restrictions on what kind of passport you must have, the extended wait for green cards and re-entry permits even for legal immigrants is messing up some people's lives, all in the name of "protecting the American people from terrorism," never mind that terrorism is just about the LEAST LIKELY way for an American to die.

But it makes the government "look busy" and allows the Busheviks to keep the fear level high.

[wickerwoman]

159. No problem... she can just join the US Army in Iraq.

I hear we're throwing away citizenships right and left to mercenar... brave, salt-of-the-earth immigrants who helped make America what it is today.