Mexican activists place 5,100 crosses at border fence to mark migrant deaths

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Pre

Mexican activists place 5,100 crosses at border fence to mark migrant deaths
By Associated Press
10:05 p.m. EDT, October 30, 2009

TIJUANA, Mexico (AP) — Rights activists in the northern Mexican border city of Tijuana have hung 5,100 small white crosses on the fence straddling the U.S. frontier to commemorate migrants who have died trying to cross.

The protest coincides with preparations for Mexico's Nov. 1 Day of the Dead holiday. The crosses represent the number of migrants estimated to have died in the 15 years since the United States toughened border security.

The Coalition for the Defense of Migrants also erected a traditional floral offering for the dead.

The Mexican government estimates about 350,000 of its citizens migrate to the U.S. annually.



Read more: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sns-ap-lt-mexico-border-deaths,0,1808807.story

[tomm2thumbs]

1. I would have placed several non-specific markers for the ones that weren't religious

[Robb]

5. That would not have been very many

95% of the population is Christian.

Edited to add: 89% Roman Catholic, per Wikiknowitalls. :)

[Xenotime]

137. Is this legal?

[Liberty Belle]

2. Bravo, it's about time. I wrote about this over a year ago --

and 5,100 is just the number of dead they know about. There are bodies found all the time in the deserts around here. I took a trip to a graveyard where the dead are buried and wrote about it but nobody else picked it up. Glad to see AP doing so now.

By the way, this isn't the first commemoration to use crosses to honor the dead border crossers. Border Angels brings crosses to mark the graves of the unknown border crosses who died in San Diego and Imperial Counties. Most are Catholic.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

6. The blase' attitude of some Americans in regard to these deaths is sickening.

This article is several years old but does provide some insight into why so many are dying.

WSWS.Org article:

The rising toll is a product of beefed-up patrols and surveillance along the US-Mexican border, particularly around urban areas in California and Texas, which have forced immigrants into remote mountain and desert regions. Locations in Arizona are now the most commonly used crossing points.

The death count is expected to rise as the US government further militarizes the border in response to pressure from right-wing, anti-immigrant forces.

Desert temperatures often reach 115 degrees Fahrenheit (46 degrees Celsius) or higher in the summer, which can cause dehydration, sunstroke and permanent kidney damage. In addition, immigrants face the danger of accidental injury, sexual abuse and murder. The number of deaths by drowning is also increasing, as immigrants attempt to cross remote parts of the Rio Grande river in Texas. There is no evidence that the token steps taken by US officials to reduce border deaths, such as installing rescue beacons, has had any significant effect.

Read more here:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/jul2007/immi-j18.shtml

[JonQ]

9. So we are to blame

that people die of natural causes while trying to illegally enter the US?

I suppose you could make the case that we aren't cracking down enough on illegal immigrants and their employers here, so it seems inviting to further immigrants. But I don't think that was the case you were making.

If we were to have real border security, and strict penalties for employers making it no longer economically valid to hire them, and stop hinting at an amnesty then this could be resolved.

[No Elephants]

13. So, by "we," do you mean the U.S. government, or the right wing,

anti-immigrant groups?

[JonQ]

15. The US government

groups like the minutemen have had little effect and do not control national policy.

[Chulanowa]

17. The term "border security" is a false term

Especially when up north we have the world's largest open border.

Apparently Mexicans are vastly more dangerous than Canadians, since we need to "secure" our borders and keep them "defended" as if we're talking about the fucking Iron Curtain here.

We don't need a goddamn moat full of laser-shooting crocodiles at the border. we need an immigration policy that doesn't treat nonwhites like subhumans. People are trudging through the desert because legal immigration procedures are stacked against both the poor and the brown.

Give us your wealthy, your 8-year educated, your well-rested nuclear families...

[Kali]

19. oh we'll take the browns...

but we want to be able to treat them like shit, kick them out whenever, work the hell out of them and not pay a fair wage.

Don't forget to keep the poor white trash pissed at the Mexicans so they don't figure out who is REALLY screwing them over.

[Hekate]

156. "Don't forget to keep the poor white trash pissed...so they don't figure out..."

This is KEY, imo. The Mexican workers get to be at the very bottom and get to be personally blamed for depressed wages. It's the usual: Who does this situation serve? Same as always: The guys at the top. Divide and conquer.

Hekate

[JonQ]

23. Yeah, for some reason we have this crazy notion

that the most interest should be paid to the region with the greatest number of trespassers. Bizarre I know.

I mean racism must be the only reason, as we all know that there are an equal number of canadians sneaking across the border illegally in the to the US as their are mexicans.

And frankly we can set whatever criteria we want for getting in to the US, it's our country. And in this climate I would say that a well-educated worker is of greater value than a non-educated menial laborer. You do realize most jobs lost have been in manufacturing and construction, jobs that would typically be filled by illegals. So if we don't have enough jobs for americans in these areas can you really justify importing people to fill them?

I mean, if you want to depress wages on traditionally middle class jobs and put americans out of work all the while corroding labor laws and unions it makes sense. Otherwise, not so much.

[treestar]

48. Your third paragraph

We have to be able to enforce it. We don't. Either we can't or purposely don't.

Letting them come legally would allow Americans to compete with them on equal terms. That's why they can't. If they could come legally and have the protections of the law, the employers could not exploit them. That's why they remain "illegal" while the government doesn't enforce the law.

We're lucky our ancestors came before this delightful means of oppressing the latest wave of immigrants was thought of.

[Chulanowa]

62. Yes, Racism is a factor

Canadians aren't sneaking over the border. We happily let them in no questions asked. But we have to keep out all the Mexicans. Now why is that, JonQ? Why the disparity of treatment between these two groups of people? it can't be language, we let the Francophone Canadians wander around all they like. Religion? Lots of Catholic Canadians, and recently, no shortage of protestant Mexicans are around. So, what's that leave? What differentiates the beer-swilling Canuckistani redneck from his beer-swilling chicano redneck distant cousin?

Of course "illegal" immigration is a problem, for the reasons Treestar outlines below - and it's a problem whether the people involved are Mexicans, Canadians, Filipinos, Koreans, Irish, or Hatian. So what's the root of the problem?

The immigration laws that make illegal immigration appealing in contrast. Make 'em legal, and most of the problems clear the hell up.

[WriteDown]

70. So this is for show?

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/10/28/windsor-border-task-force-091028.html

[Chulanowa]

74. No, but it's only looking for gangs

Down on the southern border, border patrol is trying to keep everyone the fuck out.

[WriteDown]

75. Look at this poor sucker...

Too bad he doesn't know his job is fake. :eyes:

http://www.wptz.com/news/21469916/detail.html

[Chulanowa]

106. Is "literacy" a dirty word for you?

Or are you just too stupid to comprehend the words I typed?

[WriteDown]

110. Where is your evidence that this guy is only chasing gangs?

Or that the entire northern border operation is strictly focused on "gangs."

[amandabeech]

77. Actually, economics have a lot to do with it.

Canadians have a high standard of living, including health care, and a better economy than we do generally. They have little reason to come here to work under the table or with false ID, and really, very few do.

Some of the people who do come here from Canada are really coming here through Canada. They haven't been in Canada long and may have always had the intention of coming here.

It's the same with Western Europeans. They must show their passport at the airport or border but they don't require visas to come here. In the past, some Irish came here to stay illegally, but Ireland until very recently became prosperous and the number of Irish coming here illegally decreased dramatically.

People coming here from poor or less prosperous countries of the world need visas, and those visas are not always handed out like candy at Holloween. Why? Because it is thought that citizens from poor countries are less likely to return when their visas expire. Those citizens can be from Latin America, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Africa and from all over Asia.

If Mexico's economy resembled Canada, France or Japan, there wouldn't be the situation to which you object.

[JonQ]

85. Canadians who choose to immigrate here legally

A) are following the law, B) are in far lower numbers than than are trying to come here from mexico.

There are legal immigrants from mexico, africa, asia, whereever. Contrary to popular belief we don't let in only whites.

[Chulanowa]

104. So it's your belief that Mexico is the US's only source of ILLEGAL immigrants?

Becuase that's what we're talking about here, JonQ. I know it hurts, but try to keep up.

Furthermore. There are indeed legal immigrants from Asia, Africa, Latin America, etc. But who do you think has an easier time of it? we have a quota-based immigration system, and the quota simply favors wealthy whites. This is part of why there is illegal immigration - because we make it harder for nonwealthy nonwhites to get in. These people aren't breaking hte law because they're evil bastards, they're breaking the law because it is their only option. If you had to face the choice of sitting on your ass in a completely jobless country watching your kids eat mud, or risking la migra catching you at the border of the US... which would you chose?

The Irony in all this of course is that the people coming up from Mexico are primarily Indians, who happen to be mostly moving into land stolen from Mexico. Not that history matters much, I suppose, but it is worth a chuckle. "Hey Zeke! Them thar Mecksukins is tryn'a get they shit back from us!"

[WriteDown]

111. Links to evidence that US immigration favors wealthy Whites?

:shrug:

And I'm an actual "Indian." Where can I meet you to get the keys to your place?

[AlphaCentauri]

145. EB-5 Green card n/t

[WriteDown]

157. Link doesn't work. nt

[JonQ]

114. Of all the countries that share a thousand mile land border with us, yes

mexico is the major problem. Do you believe some other country is a greater contributor of illegals than mexico? Pray tell, who?

That's funny, because if you actually knew anything about our immigration policy you would know that we don't discriminate based on race. But I guess that wouldn't fit with your world view that americans are the most evil people who ever lived.

"The Irony in all this of course is that the people coming up from Mexico are primarily Indians, who happen to be mostly moving into land stolen from Mexico. Not that history matters much, I suppose, but it is worth a chuckle. "Hey Zeke! Them thar Mecksukins is tryn'a get they shit back from us!""

And, not that you'd ever consider it, but mexican land was stolen from . . . you guessed it, the indians. Also, it's sad to say but we treat our indians far better than mexico does (hence why they are defacto the bottom of society).

[AlphaCentauri]

146. giving the poor welfare to maintain them separate from the rest of society

is not a better treatment of the poor.

[JonQ]

159. No driving them out of your cities

refusing to hire them or give them rights, that is far better than giving them their own homesteads and laws.

[EndersDame]

158. The 9/11 hijackers snuck in from the Canadian Border

[JonQ]

160. Incorrect

that was briefly and erroneously reported then retracted by the AP.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

21. My main concern isn't with where to place the blame.

My main problem is with people who say: well, they're just illegal immigrants so it's no big deal.

Where I live, that's the dominant philosophy of the largely uneducated, red neck in-bred racists.

I don't care if they're here illegally or not, they're still human beings and are dying in horrible ways when most of them are just trying to find something better for themselves.

I'm just fed up with people deciding that only good white hard working American deaths are worthy of sympathy or even basic compassion.

Human life is human life.

[JonQ]

24. Agreed, and the best way to end it is

1) increased border security
2) increased penalties for employers so they'll stop hiring them
3) immediately and strongly renouncing any notion of an amnesty.

Do that and the border deaths will be reduced. Don't and they will continue.

[Kali]

28. because if they stay and die at home in Mexico, across that imaginary line

we won't have to feel guilty at all

[JonQ]

42. How many people starve to death every year?

Why do you only care about the ones along our immediate border. There are people far worse off than mexicans, right? Shouldn't we, by your logic, ship in everyone who is at least as bad off as they are, immediately give them citizenship and social security and let them loose in the country?

I mean, you aren't selective in your compassion are you?

[Kali]

45. where the fuck do you get that?

I'm talking about Mexicans and the border because THAT IS WHAT THIS TREAD IS ABOUT.

[JonQ]

84. You weren't talking about immigration reform for everyone though

only allowing in mexicans. There are far worse countries out there to flee from.

Can I then assume that you are in favor of allowing oh say, 40% of the world immigrate here free of charge and immediately be made citizens if they choose?

If not then you are effectively starving them to death.

[treestar]

52. It's basically what happened with your ancestors

without the modern social security concept

migration is driven by economics. Not everyone would come. A false scare tactic. Thank you, Lou Dobbs.

[WriteDown]

71. So people from Rwnada, Somalia, etc.

apply for citizenship in the US due to economic reasons? I'm sure they wouldn't come if they were told the borders were now open. :eyes:

[treestar]

87. The only people who can really cross the border illegally

Are Mexicans and Central Americans and Canadians. Maybe some boat people from the Caribbean.

People in Rwanda and Somalia would have to fly. How would they get here without a visa? And they won't be granted a visa.

Not everyone can afford the trip, either. Imagine the Mexicans who can't afford to come. You think the ones that do come are poor? There's poorer even than that.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

36. I'm not sure if you thought that I was directing my comments to you or not.

I was just venting on the local Central PA attitudes that I have to deal with every day.

Sorry if you thought that I was directing them at you.

I just like to project thoughts here since it does no good to argue with the locals. There are far too many to ever win. This way, I get the frustration out without having to bang my head against the wall of ignorance that surrounds this town.

[treestar]

50. Hasn't worked

The only way to equalize them is to let them enter and leave and return legally.

They are then un-exploitable.

[Judi Lynn]

83. You should spend your energy learning more about the subject instead of blessing us

with your loud load of venom.

Just get busy and start doing your homework, if you can withstand the strain. Those of us who always try to get to the facts instead of buying hot, hate driven ignorance from the sub-average, knew YEARS ago what was behind the hardship which has forced helpless people to make a death defying trip somewhere where they KNOW the local idiots already hate them before they arrive, and have already been known to torture and murder Mexican people, or Central American people.

You seriously can't be dreaming that people WANT to leave their ancestral homes to become objects of hatred and constant yammering and whining by the drooling fools who have no idea what it's all about, can you?

Here's a very easy to grasp article which you might ask someone to read to you:

North America Congress on Latin America | 3 September 2008

Displaced People: NAFTA’s Most Important Product

By David Bacon

Since the passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) in 1993, the U.S. Congress has debated and passed several new bilateral trade agreements with Peru, Jordan and Chile, as well as the Central American Free Trade Agreement. Congressional debates over immigration policy have proceeded as though those trade agreements bore no relationship to the waves of displaced people migrating to the United States, looking for work. As Rufino Domínguez, former coordinator of the Indigenous Front of Binational Organizations (FIOB), points out, U.S. trade and immigration policy are part of a single system, and the negotiation of NAFTA was an important step in developing this system. “There are no jobs” in Mexico, he says, “and NAFTA drove the price of corn so low that it’s not economically possible to plant a crop anymore. We come to the United States to work because there’s no alternative.”

Economic crises provoked by NAFTA and other economic reforms are uprooting and displacing Mexicans in the country’s most remote areas. While California farmworkers 20 and 30 years ago came from parts of Mexico with larger Spanish-speaking populations, migrants today increasingly come from indigenous communities in states like Oaxaca, Chiapas, and Guerrero. Domínguez says there are about 500,000 indigenous people from Oaxaca living in the United States, 300,000 in California alone.

Meanwhile, a rising tide of anti-immigrant sentiment has demonized those migrants, leading to measures to deny them jobs, rights, or any pretense of equality with people living in the communities around them. Solutions to these dilemmas—from adopting rational and humane immigration policies to reducing the fear and hostility toward migrants—must begin with an examination of the way U.S. policies have both produced migration and criminalized migrants.

*

Trade negotiations and immigration policy were formally joined together when Congress passed the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) in 1986. While most attention has focused on its provisions for amnesty and employer sanctions, few have noted an important provision of the law: the establishment of the Commission for the Study of International Migration and Cooperative Economic Development, to study the causes of immigration to the United States. The commission was inactive until 1988, but began holding hearings when the U.S. and Canadian governments signed a bilateral free trade agreement. After Mexican president Carlos Salinas de Gortari made it plain he favored a similar agreement with Mexico, the commission made a report to the first president George Bush and to Congress in 1990. It found, unsurprisingly, that the main motivation for coming north was economic.

To slow or halt this flow, it recommended “promoting greater economic integration between the migrant sending countries and the United States through free trade.” It concluded that “the United States should expedite the development of a U.S.-Mexico free trade area and encourage its incorporation with Canada into a North American free trade area,” while warning that “it takes many years-even generations-for sustained growth to achieve the desired effect.” <1>

The negotiations that led to NAFTA started within months of the report. As Congress debated the treaty, Salinas toured the United States, telling audiences unhappy at high levels of immigration that passing NAFTA would reduce it by increasing employment in Mexico. Back home, Salinas and other treaty proponents made the same argument. NAFTA, they claimed, would set Mexico on a course to become a first-world nation. “We did become part of the first world,” says Juan Manuel Sandoval, coordinator of the Permanent Seminar on Chicano and Border Studies at Mexico City’s National Institute of Anthropology and History: “the backyard.”

Contrary to NAFTA proponents’ predictions, the treaty became an important source of pressure on Mexicans to migrate. It forced yellow corn grown by Mexican farmers without subsidies to compete in Mexico’s own market with corn from huge U.S. producers, subsidized by the U.S. farm bill. Agricultural exports to Mexico grew at a meteoric rate during the NAFTA years, at a compound annual rate of 9.4%, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. By 2007, annual U.S. agricultural exports to Mexico stood at $12.7 billion. <2> In January and February 2008, huge demonstrations in Mexico sought to block the implementation of the agreement’s final chapter, which lowered the tariff barriers on white corn and beans.

As a result of a growing crisis in agricultural production, by the 1980s Mexico had already become a corn importer, and according to Sandoval, large farmers switched to other crops when they couldn’t compete with U.S. grain dumping. But NAFTA then prohibited price supports, without which hundreds of thousands of small farmers found it impossible to sell corn or other farm products for what it cost to produce them. The National Popular Subsistence Company (Conasupo), through which the government bought corn at subsidized prices, turned it into tortillas, and sold them in state-franchised grocery stores at subsidized low prices, was abolished. And when NAFTA pulled down customs barriers, large U.S. corporations dumped even more agricultural products on the Mexican market. Rural families went hungry when they couldn’t find buyers for what they’d grown.

Mexico couldn’t protect its own agriculture from the fluctuations of the world market. A global coffee glut in the 1990s plunged prices below the cost of production. A less entrapped government might have bought the crops of Veracruz farmers to keep them afloat, or provided subsidies for other crops. But once free market strictures were in place, prohibiting government intervention to help them, those farmers paid the price. Veracruz campesinos joined the stream of workers headed north.

Mexico’s urban poor fared no better. Although a flood of cheap U.S. grain was supposed to make consumer prices fall, they in fact rose. With the end of the Conasupo stores and price controls, the price of tortillas more than doubled in the years following NAFTA’s adoption. One company, Grupo Maseca, monopolized tortilla production, while Wal-Mart became Mexico’s largest retailer.

Under Mexico’s former national content laws, foreign automakers like Ford, Chrysler, General Motors, and Volkswagen were required to buy some of their components from Mexican producers. NAFTA, however, prohibited laws requiring foreign producers to use a certain percentage of local content in assembled products. Without this restraint, the auto giants began to supply their assembly lines with parts from their own subsidiaries, often manufactured in other countries. Mexican auto parts workers lost their jobs by the thousands.

More:
http://www.bilaterals.org/article.php3?id_article=13234

[WriteDown]

88. Speaking of learning....

How's that Spanish coming? Any photos of your trip through the southern hemisphere?

[twitomy]

3. All the more reason to have better border control..

Cant die in the desert on the US side if you cant get to it.

[JonQ]

10. +1

exactly.

[Kali]

11. you have no clue what the conditions on the border are have you?

this is rugged wilderness and they are going out into it BECAUSE the areas that can be "secured" have been.

They are dying because of desperation, NOT lack of security.

[twitomy]

16. Then secure it all....NT

USe the stimulus money to hire people to guard what is not sedured. Consider it "WPA" program...

[Kali]

18. yeah that would be like securing the afgan/pakistan border

you need to study a little geography of the area, this isn't fucking Kansas, there are hundreds of miles of waterless, remote, brushy, rugged, rocky, mountains and canyons. You can't just drive up and build some kind of fence or wall.
some history would benefit you even more.

[JonQ]

26. Good thing then that a wall isn't the only option

huh?

Oh if only we had access to modern technology for surveillance of large areas, and a large number of unemployed Americans who could be put to work on the border.
But alas, we are both a third world nation with no access to technology, and enjoy 100% employment.

[Kali]

29. so far with the millions/billions spent none of our great technology has panned out

nature is kinda funny that way, we keep trying but it often thwarts our efforts

sorta like hungry people will risk death to eat - nature and life are strong forces, often stronger than any technology

[JonQ]

41. Anyone who thinks that this nation has made any serious attempts

to limit illegal immigration in the last few decades has not been paying attention.

The border is porous, companies hire illegal with impunity (despite a handful of high profile raids, the majority slip through the cracks) and border patrol is woefully under funded and understaffed.

[twitomy]

49. A more effective way to stop illegal immigration

then with walls is to punish the snot out of companies that hire them. We need to crack down
hard on these companies. Set up a hotline. Offer rewards. Treat these companies like the criminals they are. Then the demand will dry up, and then there will be no reason to cross the border.

[JonQ]

86. Which I emphasized above

a multipronged approach will be necessary. Border security being only one of those prongs.

[twitomy]

92. + 1 I'm withya!

But it nver gets done. The Repubs are beholden to the business interests who want the cheap labor, and the Dems are beholden to a good portion of the left who thinks letting people run roughshod over our borders with all the problems that come with it is somehow compassionate.

[JonQ]

94. Sadly true

a multiparty system would be nice.

[AlphaCentauri]

147. then you would agree with immigration reform

That's what it is to restore order to the immigration system

[twitomy]

161. Depends what you mean by "reform"

How is letting people come over willy nilly so as to perpetuate the corrupt Mexican govt "reform"?

Why are we talking about "reforming" immigration laws that our govt chooses not to enforce to begin with? Heres an idea for you: Restore order to the immigration system by actually enforcing the existing laws. That is, stop the illegal immigration, forcing the Mexican govt to deal with the corruption by way of pressure from their destitute and pissed off citizens which will lead to
a better life for its citizens, reducing the pressure on the border.

Oh I know, makes too much sense, not "compassionate". Well I dont see how enabling the shit hole
govt of Mexico is compassionate to anyone but the uber rich tycoons there.

[sudopod]

144. sigh, nm.

[dysfunctional press]

133. and that's our fault...how exactly?

for having a superior quality of life?

if they had any real gumption- they'd stay in their own country and try to improve it.

[twitomy]

143. You hit on something

The Mexican govt actually encourages illegal immigration. Why? Its their "pressure relief" vlave to keep the people from rising up. If the disenfranchised had no where to flee, it wouldnt be too long before some heads would start rolling there.

[AlphaCentauri]

148. heads are rolling there because America is on drugs

what other country use that amount of drugs a year that the suppliers have to introduce tons of them every month.

[AlphaCentauri]

149. wasn't that quality of life was build using the poor and their cheap resources

[dysfunctional press]

150. that was then, this is now.

the current crop of illegals had nothing to do with building it, and for the most part, neither did their anscestors. they and their fellow countrypeople and their progeny would be better off if they gave working to try and make their own country livable a try instead.

[AlphaCentauri]

151. "and for the most part, neither did their ancestors"

illegal Europeans did not contribute either

[dysfunctional press]

152. exactly.

[AlphaCentauri]

153. here we go back to the middle edges with The spontaneous generation hypothesis n/t

[dysfunctional press]

154. "the middle edges"..?

i'm sorry- i'm not aware of the concept. perhaps you could elaborate?

and the "spontaneous generation hypothesis" as well...:shrug:

[izquierdista]

4. The 2nd

Dia de los Muertos is on the second of November, November first is Dia de Todos Santos.

[AlphaCentauri]

8. Exactly

http://www.mexconnect.com/tags/day-of-the-dead

[ensho]

7. kick

nt

[Kali]

12. I helped another poor guy last week.

He showed up at the gate early Sunday morning and almost passed out from exhaustion. Puked up his first try at a drink of water. We layed him down and let him sleep for an hour or two then fed and watered him, let him clean his feet. He was from Puebla. His first attempt. He knew about the deaths but felt he had no choice, he has a hungry family to take care of. Three days on the bus to Agua Prieta then 5 days walking to here. He was wearing what I call poor Mexican Sunday shoes - probably his only pair - leather loafers. 5 days walking in them. His feet were covered with blisters and he could barely walk anymore. Got a call from his "cousin" a day later - he made it to LA. They were so very grateful for my small help and kindness. I'm sure he will find soon enough he isn't wanted here, but I at least tried to be a citizen of the world and not a nationalistic asshole.

Yeah, they just easily slip over and take our jobs away from us.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Bless you

:hug:

[Kali]

20. I wish a few more people could see what I see.

thanks.

[proteus_lives]

22. Sucks for him.

He wouldn't have to go through that if he tried to become a US citizen the legal way. But you choose to break the law, you role the dice.

[Kali]

25. it does suck

the policies that come out of the US are the main reason, of course.
Do you have any clue how difficult it is to complete ANY paperwork in Mexico? Now add illiteracy, poverty, and attitudes like yours and others on this side in terms of getting permission even if you manage to get birth and other ID required there. Many poor rural people HAVE no records. Think about it. Now come up with the money to correct the situation and wait 10 or 20 years to complete the process "legally" while your family starves or suffers in other ways.

Sorry but you are under the mistaken myth that "doing it legally" is even remotely possible for the vast majority of these economic refugees.

[proteus_lives]

32. Why do we have to be responsible for "economic refugees"?

Why isn't it Mexico's responsibility to look out the safety and success of it's own citizens?

It's difficult in Mexico? Then Mexico should fix the problems with their government/education system/paper process and economy!

I will always be anti-illegal immigration. It doesn't help our country's problems.

I know the legal process is long and drawn-out but that doesn't make it ok to break the law.

[JonQ]

44. Apparently we are the worlds policemen

and responsible for the internal problems of every other country, except when we aren't.

We already give mexico hundreds of millions in aid, billions in remittances, and billions more in trade (NAFTA anyone?). I guess we are still responsible for feeding and housing their poor so they never have to develop their own infrastructure, invest in their own economy, or overhaul their government which is rife with corruption and waste.

Essentially illegal immigration allows mexico to limp along as a third world country rather than be forced in to economic self-sufficiency and growth.

[Kali]

47. we don't have to

but since we are a major cause of the problem, one of the wealthiest nations, supposedly compassionate, and we certainly benefit from it all, we could do something besides act all high and mighty because hungry people commit minor offenses to work their asses off in a place that exhibits racist hatred and other forms of unjustified hostility towards them.

I'm done. These threads are too hard for me to deal with. I wish you could have seen the man's feet.

[proteus_lives]

54. If I had, it still won't change my views.

Illegal immigration is wrong. The people who do it should be sent back to their countries of origin.

And once again you ignore the responsibility Mexico has for this man. They are supposed to be the ones watching out for him. Not us.

Racism? Throughout this thread we've seen nothing but "White's Man Burden" from you. That's racism my friend. Think about it.

Illegal immigration is not good for our country or economy.

[MellowDem]

81. Bullshit...

we aren't a major cause of the problem, Mexico fucking is. Their government is a shitshow of corruption, just like many other nations on Earth. The only reason you feel differently towards them is because they're right next door, but there are a lot of other countries in very similar situations around the world who don't have the opportunity to enter the US illegally and I don't see you caring one way or another.

And stop this shit about the "racial hatred". Seriously, if the situation was reversed and millions of Americans were pouring in to undercut good wages of Mexicans and break the law, I'm sure there would be "unjustified hostility" towards them. I can't stand people who use accusations of racism to uphold a system that exploits illegal immigrants for economic profit. You're completely missing the point and siding with the neocons on this one bub.

I'm glad you're done, because you obviously have no fucking clue about anything on this issue.

[Kali]

89. at first your post made me angry

because you claimed to know my motivations and even what I do and don't care about, but then when you said I have no clue...well :spray: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

93. Breathtaking. Somehow, I get the feeling you DO know exactly about this subject.

You are exactly the way people SHOULD be.

Really appreciate your posts on this thread, Kali.

You should know you've got FAR more friends than whatever these things are reading your comments.

[Kali]

96. thanks - yeah I live a fair amount of the "on the ground" effects of the issue

as for the right wing talking points spouted off here - most of it is fear, I know that - too many are so easily duped into hating the next lowest victim instead of the real perpetrators.

I expect even the hardest hearted keyboard-warrior on the issue would be feeding and helping a limping migrant if they were faced with one in real life. At least I need to think so.

Keep posting - I catch them pretty often - at least enough that I know your user name (that says a lot for me - ha)

[MellowDem]

107. I never claimed to know your motivations...

and an inane response like this is all I would expect from someone who knows they have no argument.

If I want a humanitarian speech from someone who must fundamentally oppose humanitarianism by supporting those who would exploit illegal immigrants at the expense of the American worker I'll go elsewhere. Bush and his pals love people like you.

[AlphaCentauri]

55. Because is in the best US interest

Mexico not only provide labors, it also provides security. Maintaining Mexico wick in economic and military terms is of great benefit to America so it can be manipulated and used.
That is the reason most of latin america never become first world countries, the wealthy there are courted to bring their money and leave their fellow men in poverty.

[JonQ]

27. But why should they have to follow our laws?

It's not like americans have any right to set immigration policy for america.

[Kali]

31. one fucking minor civil offense

is not exactly breaking major laws

bet you never did ANYTHING illegal EVER in your life, right? especially for something petty like feeding your family?

[proteus_lives]

35. So we only have follow major laws?

That's nice to know, I'm never feeding a parking meter again.

[Kali]

46. sorry, that obviously went over your head

black and white thinking, its not just for right wing fundies anymore.

[JonQ]

40. So breaking the law, is in fact not breaking the law?

I see.

That makes perfect sense.

[twitomy]

163. Breaking one "minor" law is the tip of the iceberg...

Even though it demostrates contempt for your "host" country.

Lets list the other negative aspects of illegal immigration:

Health: Since illegals get no physical exams upon entry, we have no idea what kind of contagious
diseases they bring in. (TB anyone?) This not always harms public health, it burderns the already public healthcare system as they typically cant pay the bill. TAYPAYERS pay the tab. Legal immigrants cant come over with such issues.

They undercut the wages of American citizens. They do not just take jobs "Americans dont want" Ask me how I know. Legal immigrants must have a "over the table" job lined up or a sponser

Violent Crime: We have plenty of criminals here. We dont need more. More crime, more taxpayer dollars spent. Legal immigrants cant have a criminal record.

They procreate children who then are supported by the taxpayer. Again, ask me how I know.

Since they work "under the table" they do not pay their fair share of taxes.
Legal immigrants pay their full share of taxes.

They often refuse to learn English; Ask me how I know. contributing to the Balkanization of the country. Assimilation beats out "diversity" anyday.

[proteus_lives]

34. I know!

Crazy right?

It's totally bonkers that we should ask people to respect the laws of our country!

[JonQ]

38. Seriously

I know that if I were to go to another country that they would respect my rights, as an american, to do as I please within their borders regardless of whatever laws they may feel are necessary to enact.

I would face no penalties for breaking their laws as they don't even really apply to me.

[Flaneur]

30. I hate assholes.

[proteus_lives]

33. Me too!

Especially assholes who think it's ok to break the law.

[JonQ]

43. Yeah, like those who insist the rules don't apply to them

[AlphaCentauri]

56. specially those who think law equals justice n/t

[treestar]

51. He'd never be legal

The laws are quite restrictive.

http://www.parishesforpeace.org/Immigration_main_webpage_files/Immigration_main_webpage.htm

[IRemember]

60. Yeah, how selfish of him

He should have stayed home and died instead of trying to attain a better life. :sarcasm:

[XemaSab]

53. You're a good person, Kali

:pals:

[WriteDown]

72. You should've called ICE..

They would have given him shelter and 3 squares.

It amazes me that we want to be a progressive nation, but unlike other progressive nations in the world; France, Germany, etc., we don't feel the need to take care of our own citizens first.

[Kali]

91. I don't call them unless a migrant would ask me to.

Do you call the cops on homeless people?

What gives you (and several others in this thread) the idea I don't help anybody but Mexicans? Or that we can't help others at the same time we try to help ourselves?

[WriteDown]

95. I don't call the cops on burglars either or if I see a rape...

They're just minor crimes and I figure we shouldn't really interfere with people's enjoyment or pursuit of happiness.

[Kali]

98. Wow

just wow, you think rape or burglary is equivalent to crossing an imaginary political line with out a piece of paper? It's all the same? All rules, regulations, and laws MUST be obeyed by everybody at all times? My what a good citizen you must be.

Should I jump to the insane conclusion that you DO call the cops when you see somebody panhandling or maybe walking across the street outside of the lines?

[WriteDown]

100. Rape is just crossing an imaginary social boundary...

Its just another silly law. There are a lot of silly laws like that. Don't tell me you follow all the silly rules, regulations, and laws?

[Kali]

102. no, I use my brain

but you have a nice obedient life:hi:

FYI, just for you: it isn't illegal to help a migrant with food, water, clothing, phone calls and such. Just thought you would like to know that in case you are ever faced with the dilemma of helping a human being vs. breaking an important and just law.

[WriteDown]

103. I wish I had your brain that told me which laws to obey...

If someone robs your house, please remember that you shouldn't try to defend yourself or protect your belongings. That person may just be trying to sell your stuff to eat. In fact, you probably should leave your doors unlocked.

[Kali]

105. see the edit above

oh and my doors are unlocked, no point out here in locking them - just gets broken doors

doubt if I would risk my life for things, but I have both guns and a brain and so far nothing bad has ever happened to me or my family (that I WOULD risk protecting in any manner - legal or not, that's the way I roll)

[WriteDown]

108. And I do hope nothing happens to you....

I dated a girl who's uncle had a ranch close the border. He was a nice fellow who had a ton of illegals cross parts of his property. He'd go so far as to leave water jugs out for them. He had two dogs that lived with him who would go out on the property for hours and come home at dinner time. One day, only one dog returned. He rode around the ranch that evening calling for him. They eventually found him with his throat slit and his collar missing for whatever reason. No good deed goes unpunished.

Just remember that for every illegal you help, that's one more fence builder, drywaller, laborer, etc. who will likely not have a job.

[Kali]

116. or human being that does have a job (and is alive)

Idea: instead of obeying all the rules you come accross, why don't you try thinking of a bigger picture sort of action you can take to help the problem instead of demonizing desperate poor people?

Is there a way everybody can have a little of the pie? Is it really all about the luck of being born on one side of an imaginary line? You got lucky and are to the north so fuck the other person? Isn't the attitude of "I got mine" the CAUSE of the problem? So how can it be the solution? Maybe instead of fighting over that sliver of pie we should look at who got the rest of it. If less was flowing to the very small point at the top of the pyramid, there would be a hell of lot more to go to the middle and then the fence builder, drywaller, laborer, etc who are the actual base of it all. But then a few rules might need to be broken or at least changed for that to happen. Easier to blame that evil lawbreaker walking 5 days across the desert for his own death.

[WriteDown]

120. An idea....

Why don't you move to Mexico and try to help reform the conditions that are plaguing them? You could buy some land, maybe start a business and hire some folks.

[Kali]

129. nevermind

I need to get some sleep.

Please read the other two pieces the OP posted later in the thread.

[WriteDown]

135. I understand...

It's difficult due to Mexico's strict immigration laws.

[flvegan]

113. That gets my respect.

[Kali]

124. thanks

that means quite a bit, really.

[QC]

37. Does the greedy oligarchy that owns Mexico bear any responsibility for these deaths?

Nobody ever wants to talk about the role that Mexico's own leadership plays in her people's misery.

Of course, that's true here, too--nobody wants to talk about root causes and real villains. That's not "pragamtic."

[mule_train]

39. too many people think America's sinking middle/working classes have more responsibility for them, th

than Mexico's super rich upper and middle classes

all this does, is act as an enabler for mexico's cruelty

it's actually a subsidy for mexic;'s super sich like Carlos Slim, atr one time in the last year richer than bill gates

http://www.informationweek.com/news/mobility/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=200900492

Bill Gates Passed By Mexican Telecom Tycoon As World's Richest Man


Carlos Slim's total worth reportedly now stands at about $62.9 billion; Bill Gates is only worth about $59.2 billion.

By Paul McDougall
InformationWeek
July 5, 2007 10:14 AM


Mexican telecom tycoon Carlos Slim has surpassed Bill Gates as the world's richest man, according to a financial Web site based in Mexico. Following big gains in his investment portfolio, Slim's total worth now stands at about $62.9 billion, says Sentido Comun. By contrast, Microsoft founder and chairman Gates is currently worth about $59.2 billion.

[Tim01]

57. Should they stop crossing the border? nt

[mule_train]

58. 4,745 DUI deaths per year from illegal aliens

we all have our problems

[Kali]

59. that number is from where?

a wing nut source, I believe...

http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2007/kingillegal.html

[EFerrari]

61. Not to mention, they steal your cable and run over your kittehs.

[proteus_lives]

63. So it doesn't matter when Illegal immigrants break the law?

I mean more laws, they are breaking the law every second they are in the US.

When do they cross the line to it being "not ok" to break the law?

[EFerrari]

64. That's the lamest excuse to try to rewrite ecomonic refugess that US policy made

ever.

I sincerely don't understand your viewpoint. Do you honestly believe you can only measure out your empathy for the worthy and f#ck everyone else? Seriously, even if you don't know that we forced these people out of their own homes when they don't want to come here, do you honestly believe you can vilify them or, at very least, not even think about why they have to come here to eat, and still believe you are in touch with reality, let alone, a progressive, let alone, an empathic human being.

These people are not coming here to steal your values. They're coming here because our government helps the ruling class in Mexico steal elections from reformers. YOU are paying that Mexican elite to drive these people north. If you don't like the results, get off your remote.

[proteus_lives]

65. Wow, can you even see the screen of your computer with all the arrogance you've hosed on it?

My viewpoint is illegal immigration is wrong. Companies that employ illegals should be fined/shut down and the illegals themselves sent home. We need to cut Mexico loose and force them to clean-up their own messes.

I want my democratic congress and president to pass tough anti-illegal immigration laws. I know they're not after my "values" :eyes: but that doesn't change the fact that illegal immigration isn't good for the country or economy.

"YOU are paying that Mexican elite to drive these people north. If you don't like the results, get off your remote."

Do you pay taxes? Well, I guess you better yank yours out too.

[AlphaCentauri]

73. That would be a nice argument in fantasy land

it's ironic that this call to pressure the rich in Mexico comes from the US. It's obvious that many lack of knowledge that the US keeps the door open for those wealthy, their money and investments to flow north if they feel the water is getting to their necks.
Not only the latin american elites own properties and business in the US but also they are granted to be residents or even become citizens. Ask the poor if they have those benefits?
I guess it won't hurt to have more investments and some billions more injected into the US economy when those wealthy latinos bring their assets with them, then the poor can stay home to be in chronic poverty because the US won't let them experiment with other types of economic regimes unless is neo-liberalism.

[EFerrari]

78. You haven't followed this discussion very well, have you?

It's not "Mexico's mess", it's a mess that the owners of that country have developed in coorperation with the owners of this country. If we'd "cut Mexico loose", they would be in much better shape today, witness our government helped steal the election from the reformer last time out.

You have it exactly backward.

[mule_train]

66. so basically, the American working/middle classes are responsible, the Mexican rich are not

shouldnt the Democrzatic party, now that it has the white house, the senate, and the house be putting pressure on mexico's rich, instead of squeezing a broke American working class?

[EFerrari]

67. No, but we are responsible for weighing the propaganda that is floated at us

-- that characterizes these people as criminals when they are victims just as we are of greedy mofos.

Btw, it's not only Mexico but all over Latin America. A fifth or so of El Salvador's population was displaced up here during Reagan's dirty war, for example. Globalization, the FTAs, supporting murderous governments, all play a role in driving people out of their homes. Two of the very worst governments in Latin America, Peru and Colombia, are our closest allies. And that's pretty much the way it has always been, unfortunately.

[mule_train]

68. i was against reagans war, the school of the americas free trade and globalism

so actually, i am in agreement with you on a lot of things

but i favor more putting pressure on mexico's elite, rather than accomodating them and crushing the working class (blacks in particular)

[AlphaCentauri]

69. Do you really know who control Mexico? (back to reality)

In recent years, Morris has turned to foreign campaigns. He served as chief strategist for Mexico’s reformer Vicente Fox in his surprise victory over PRI in July, 2000, the party’s first defeat in 71 years. He also was the chief strategist for the successful campaigns of Fernando de la Rua of Argentina, Jorge Battle of Uruguay, Chen of Taiwan and, most recently, for Viktor Yushchenko, the Ukrainian presidential candidate who was poisoned during his campaign. He also handled the winning campaign for the new president of Mexico, Felipe Calderon.

http://www.harpercollinsspeakersbureau.com/speaker/dick-morris.aspx

[EFerrari]

79. It's right there in plain English, isn't it?

This idea that somehow Mexico pushes its problems on us is the twin piece of BS to "illegal immigrants are criminals".

"Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States."

[AlphaCentauri]

132. Can they read it?

I guess not, they only jump on the xeno boat

[EFerrari]

76. We don't have much leverage against their elite when ours is in league with them.

And you're right. The poverty level among black Americans is about the same as it was when King marched, as Dr. Gates points out. So, they are especially impacted by these forces.

[Lorien]

134. Well said. nt

[Kali]

109. ...

:spray:

missed this last night :thumbsup:

[LanternWaste]

131. Many more I imagine from U.S. citizens...

Many more DUI deaths I imagine from U.S. citizens...

[lynne]

80. On All Saints Day we should remember each one that died and also remember that they died LEAVING -

- their own country which makes Mexico responsible for their deaths. Why isn't Mexico taking care of its own people? Were they able to make a decent living in Mexico they wouldn't be risking their lives trying to come illegally into the U.S.

[JonQ]

97. They aren't taking care of their people because america

isn't giving them enough money to.

It is our responsibility to feed and clothe all the citizens of the world. Their governments bear no responsibility and in fact are our victims.

So corruption in the mexican government is our fault. Refusal to develop human resources is our fault. Faulty infrastructure in their country is our fault. And so on.

[smalll]

101. Yep. We're so evil, aren't we?

;)

[WriteDown]

112. Here you go....

[AlphaCentauri]

117. Please no history books and other tales

like slavery and indian reservations

http://www.zompist.com/latam.html

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/feb2009/mexi-f09.shtml

[JonQ]

118. It's seems to many on here

we are the worlds police when anything goes wrong and we didn't intervene.

And evil yankee imperialists when something goes wrong and we had intervened.

So lose-lose for us.

And if something goes right we had nothing to do with it and any involvement probably only served to make things worse.

[AlphaCentauri]

123. just 2 wars at this time and deploying defense systems in eastern europe

there is more to it than just policing the world

;)

[Judi Lynn]

82. It would be so much better if the reactionaries were taking the time to get the facts

the rest of us have by nature labored to discover.

That takes time away from the time spent shooting off your mouths, venting spleen over the wrongs you imagine Mexicans have committed against your precious bodily fluids.

You need to spend righteous time doing your own research, and learning about the hideous flood of US heavily taxpayer-subsidized products like Mexico's ancient staple, CORN, which have surged from the U.S. megafarms into Mexico, driving very small farmers off the very land their families owned for generations, leaving them and their dependents homeless, with no other prospects, clearly, and many many more Mexican citizens who WORKED on farms simply without a future.

This last wave started with the onset of NAFTA during the 1990's.

You owe it to yourself to have the sense of honor, and the stability to know what you're attempting to discuss.

Here's a very quick grab from a second of searching in the internetS.

~snip~
While NAFTA has been very good for the bottom line of large trans-national corporations, it has been a disaster for working people in the United States, Canada and Mexico. Since NAFTA was signed on January 1, 1994, the United States has lost about 400,000 industrial jobs. These were generally union jobs with decent pay and benefits. Typically workers who lose these jobs find new work that pays only 70% of their former salary. Corporations often find it “cost-effective” to move their operations to Mexico, where more the 2,700 maq/*-uiladores (assembly sweatshops producing for export) have been established since 1994. Over 1.3 million Mexican workers, mostly young women, toil in these maquiladores for wages that average 50 cents an hour. Without representation by democratic unions, these workers have no job security or benefits, and are often subject to sexual harassment and unsafe working conditions. The result is a race to the bottom, where workers in both countries suffer depressed wages, worsening conditions and lack of job security.

Even in the case of Mexico, NAFTA has resulted in a net loss of jobs, as farmers and small businesses can’t compete with trans-national corporations. Since 1994, the purchasing power of the poorest 2/3 of the Mexican population has decreased by an astounding 30%, and more than half of the population is unemployed, employed part time or working in the “informal sector” (i.e., selling gum on street corners). In the United States, even in the midst of an “economic boom,” the standard of living of the poorest half of the population is declining. This is the real meaning of corporate-centered globalization, NAFTA and the FTAA.

Perhaps the most frightening aspect of NAFTA (and something that will probably be even worse under the FTAA) is the threat to democracy. Trade bureaucrats who are responsible to no one are empowered to make far-reaching decisions that often result in local, state or federal laws being overturned. Labor rights and local democratic controls that often took decades to win through grassroots struggles are being overturned. Corporate rights are superseding basic human rights.

http://www.foodfirst.org/progs/global/trade/Sector_Analysis_FTAA.html

[Kali]

90. ***crickets***

no rebuttals to real information? oh they must have read your posts, learned something, and are busy really studying the issue now.

[t0dd]

99. I can't believe

some of the responses to this post. Even in death these poor people can't get an ounce of dignity. No, instead Lou Dobbs wannabes have to infiltrate the discussion and demonize these people. Regardless of how you feel about illegal immigration, you could recognize the disgusting tragedy this is. They were looking for better lives and were murdered like dogs. But I guess to some of you they were dogs to begin with. You whine that they should have never broken the law, but the law is so restrictive they never had a chance to begin with.

[MellowDem]

115. How were they "murdered"?

They died of natural causes and considering they were trying to cross the border without being seen, it's likely they'll die if they get in trouble since no one is going to find them until it is too late. The shit I hate is using the deaths of illegal immigrants, which is a tragedy, as an excuse to keep the status quo on immigration policy. What's sickening is all the responses blaming America, like our government can do anything about this or it's somehow their fault, but no mention of the Mexican government and the real root of the problem, which is a lack of opportunity in Mexico. Those people die due to the horrible living conditions in Mexico, not due to American border policy, and everyone who happily ignores this fact is doing desperate migrants everywhere a disservice.

And American immigration law is not that restrictive compared the the rest of the world, including the very liberal countries of Europe.

[WriteDown]

119. American immigration law is like a free-for-all compared to

Western Europe. Ask any Turk illegally trying to come into Germany. I saw an arrest first-hand over there and it was not pretty.

[MellowDem]

122. It's intentionally that way as well...

Why else do literally hundreds of thousands cross every year? It's because there is a fair chance of success in getting here and once they get here there is ample opportunity for them to have jobs. If the US really wanted to, it could lock down the border and really clamp down on businesses that employ illegal immigrants, but business loves cheap labor, which brings the Republican side on board to keep the border porous enough for that cheap labor to get on through. And unfortunately, Democrats play identity politics with the issue and won't touch it even though the only people that illegal immigration really benefits are businesses that break the law.

[AlphaCentauri]

121. Implying that Mexico should be a socialist country won't help either

a socialist government in Mexico would trigger and invasion so I don't see anyone proposing a solution just personal opinions.

[MellowDem]

125. There are no easy solutions

but a big thing that continues to contribute to the problem of a Mexican government that is corrupt and unresponsive to its own people is a porous border that acts as a nice escape valve for the Mexican government. As long as their citizens can just get out to the US, they aren't going to stick around to demand accountability of their government.

[AlphaCentauri]

126. That would propel a revolution

something right wingers would try avoid or use as a excuse to invade that country

http://www.answers.com/topic/u-s-military-involvement-in-the-mexican-revolution

[MellowDem]

127. Well, it's a good thing the right wing...

isn't in charge anymore.

[AlphaCentauri]

128. They could come back to grasp power as the blue dogs n/t

[JNelson6563]

130. Wouldn't it be easier and less deadly

to help Mexico get it's shit together so everyone doesn't want to leave?

Julie

[Romulox]

136. Anyone notice that DU's "immigration activistis" ALWAYS spout the same line as El Jefe?

Namely: keep that cheap labor flowing. Also, these self-same "compassionistas" are never found on any threads about the travails of American workers.

And yet they (claim to!) care about "all the workers" so much. Odd. :shrug:

[AlphaCentauri]

140. Simon we believe in El Jefe Obama

:think:

[Romulox]

142. I know what each of those words mean individually...but together, and in that order?

No clue. :shrug:

[Xenotime]

138. 5,100 people trying to get back on to land that once belong to them.

Very sad.

[JonQ]

139. My ancestors were driven out of their homeland

and forced here, something about the british not particularly liking them. I wonder if I could illegaly immigrate back to the old country and demand my right to become a citizen, but refusing to learn the language, take the test, fill out the necessary paperwork or follow any procedures whatsoever.

Think they'd be up for it?

[Romulox]

141. Do, Ireland, France, Canada, Germany, etc. "belong" to me?

:shrug:

[MellowDem]

162. To who?

The Mexicans are a very diverse people, and in all actuality, Mexico only owned that territory through Spanish expansion and imperialism. And there were very few Mexicans ever living there, just mostly Native Americans, but I guess those natives were really Mexicans to you, right? Might want to inform them of that.

You know, your argument actually just proves that America should own the land, because you approve of using imperialism and war to claim land.

[Hekate]

155. Good for them. I know from experience that a mass of white crosses like that gets attention...

The link didn't seem to have a photo, so I can't tell how small they are, but I hope the Coalition makes sure they are visible to all who drive or walk by.

I am ashamed that my country has embraced one of the most wrong-headed means of controlling human migrations possible. All the original fences did was drive people into the harshest desert to go around the fences. That's why so many deaths have occurred.

Bush's notion of building a wall all along the border would do nothing but turn the US into a prison of its own making, not to mention interfering with the migrations of wildlife.

Uncontrolled migrations are a problem, but I long ago concluded that both the Mexican government and the US government have business and social interests that keep them from grappling with the situation honestly.

Mexicans are desperate for the work and the income, much of which goes right back home and into the Mexican economy. Americans want cheap labor, businesses like construction, chicken factories, and agriculture want non-union workers who won't give them any trouble about working conditions. The average homeowner hires day-labor for housecleaning and yard work without a thought of green cards because they don't do a reportable payroll, just write a check or pay cash.

And whenever a crunch comes, suddenly they're all "illegals breaking the law."

There has got to be a better way.

Hekate