'Honour killing' mother challenges husband in court

[closeupready]

Source: Guardian

The wife of a man accused of murder their 15-year-old daughter in an "honour killing" turned to her husband across an Old Bailey courtroom today and demanded: "Look at my face. What did you do to Tulay?"

Hanim Goren, 45, was giving evidence against her husband, Mehmet, for the third day when she turned to challenge him over his part in her daughter's killing a decade ago.

Her dramatic outburst came after she asked the judge for "two minutes" and apologised. She then turned to the dock, where her husband was staring back at her, and said: "Look at my face. What did you do to Tulay? Say it. Say it so that I can …"

But she was stopped by the judge, Mr Justice Bean, who told her: "Please stop. You are here to answer questions from counsel."

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/21/goren-honour-killing-wife-outburst

---

Good for her - such courage.

[BBri]

1. What's an "Honour Killing"?

Can someone shed some light on this?

[shadowknows69]

2. Murder

[WhiteTara]

3. Sharia law states when a female of any age

does something the men in the family think is against Sharia law (designed to make women second class citizens) then the men kill the offending female...to uphold their honor.

BTW welcome to DU :hi:

[Warpy]

11. Actually, that's tribal stuff

and I don't think it's codified in Shari'a.

Religious leaders decide on a woman's guilt (and when have we ever not been guilty?) and determine the punishment.

[Taverner]

36. It is codified in Sharia. Like all religions, the goal is to oppress

BTW...Mormons have honor killings too

[Rage for Order]

41. Can you point me to some news stories concerning the prevelance of Mormon honor killings?

I googled "Mormon Honor Killings" but got no hits from any news sources.

[Taverner]

43. It's not as common these days - I'll go see if I can find a source

[reorg]

42. no it isn't, "honor killings" have nothing to do with Islam

While some states (Turkey) and religious communities have been lenient towards this practice, this has changed in recent times.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3382619#3393925

[itcfish]

14. The Are Turkish Kurds

If I am not mistaken they are Sunni and do not follow Sharia Law

[yava]

44. Honor killing by Moslems

Hi,
As usual there is what various religions preach and what their legal systems and populations practice.
I have always read in the press, explanations for honor killing of women by Moslem family men as being due to an illicit sexual relation by the woman.
On the other hand, the islamic teachings and law refer to the Koran (or Quran), the holy book of islam, as requiring proof of such infidelity by the statements of THREE witnesses who SAW the act of penetration. In otherwords, only possible with a conspiracy by three witnesses as it is unlikely any woman choosing to have such sex would let three unfriendly folks watch!
Any way, in the case of a married woman, the punishment would then be by stoning!
For single women, I don't know about the form of punishment and most likely, there, honor killings could happen and be only lightly punished.
But now, in the 21st century, you have very few States out of the tens of members of the islamic states that practice anything even close to such things officially. Saudis are one of them. It happens in Iran since the islamic revolution but only if the verdict is not appealed and executed rapidly. Once it gets in the press, its stopped by the government.
Honor killing is not state sanctioned. It is done by brothers or fathers who are under pressure from local big mouths in underdeveloped communities. The rules are written down no where.

Now, in closing, don't you all think there is some kind of honor killing practiced on men and their families by the MAFIA and other organized crime?

[BBri]

46. Thanks

Thanks for the info everyone.

[WillParkinson]

4. When someone does something...

That in your addled brain says dishonored your family and that the only way you can regain your honor is by sacrificing them.

[closeupready]

5. The story doesn't say what the circumstances of the girl's disappearance are,

but generally, an honor killing in this context means, a child who is murdered because they lost their virginity or otherwise disgraced the family. I'll see if I can find some background on the case.

[bertman]

6. It's a "culturally-sanctioned" murder in some cultures that is initiated by someone--

usually a female--doing something that is considered inappropriate. The "honour" part comes in because the murderer(s) use upholding the family's honour as their reason for murdering said person.

Hope this helps.

On edit: this is not just sharia law (muslim law). It occurs in other religious settings, for example, in India where Hindus commonly participate in this barbaric practice. There may be other cultures as well, but I don't know about that--maybe those cultists who worship Rulon Jeffs here in the U.S.

[Vehl]

12. Commonly?

Excuse me for be the spoilsport but what exactly do you mean by "Commonly".

AFAIK these killings are almost exclusively done by those of Islamic persuasion. Not that I'm claiming that such horrid acts are not perpetuated by people of other religious persuasions but to claim this is common amongst Hindus in India is laughable.

In fact if one were to look at the "honor" Killings abroad, especially in the west , almost every single case is related to Islam. Not that i'm trying to diss Islam(its the last thing i want to do) but i would appreciate it if you will stop painting Hindus with such a broad brush :)


EDIT: In other words this practice is almost always related to the Sharia law. A list of all such cases in the west would support this claim.

[bertman]

15. Okay, spoilsport, here's a link to address your claim:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

"In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)."

As you can see, honour killings are not restricted to islamic nations or cultures.

[Vehl]

21. And this despicable practice is "Honour Killing"? how?

I'm at a loss to understand how you confuse the criminal act that is dowry-based murder with that of Honor Killing. Pls look up what "Honour Killing" is before you compare apples to oranges.In fact Dowries are NOT related to religion at all while Honour Killing IS related to religion/religious laws . Also Dowry giving/asking is illegal in India.

thank you :)

yet again, I condemn these practices and always advocated for the capital punishment for offenders.

[bertman]

23. I didn't name it, so don't blame me. The honour part of it apparently comes from the

fact that adequate "honour" is not being shown when a bride does not have a large enough dowry.

The vast majority of Indians are Hindus. These practices are allowed, actually condoned, in this Hindu state. If the religion that gave so much respect to cows would show an equal amount of respect to women, this heinous practice would have been done away with centuries ago.

Dowry giving/asking may be illegal, but it's apparently being widely practiced, especially in the rural areas--according to what I have read.

[Vehl]

24. The reason for the dowry killings is not "honour"..but pure and simple unadulterated greed

Its greed that motivates those dowry killings..not "honor". Not at all. In most cases the woman's family pays the full dowry required(they should have simply refused the request and sued the guy...anyone asking for dowry and sued for it will get arrested and will serve time) yet later on the husband/and or her in laws demand more money....this has nothing to do with honor or any other warped sense of social respectability..

"Honour killings" on the other hand do result purely from an outdated and silly sense of "family honour" condoned by religious laws.

[bertman]

25. So, it is not considered to be dishonoring the groom by giving less of a dowry than desired?

If the groom's family feels that he or his family is being dishonored by a bride-to-be whose dowry is inadequate, how is that not an honor killing? Your argument sounds like wordsmithery to me.

[Vehl]

27. I think you missed the operative word in my post

let me repost the pertinent part from my above post

In most cases the woman's family pays the full dowry required

Where does it say that the women are killed cos they gave less dowry than required?


The Bride's family pays the groom the amount asked beforehand. In the vast majority of such cases the Grooms family then pesters the Bride's family for more dough. And most of the time this is months if not a few Years after the marriage. When the brides family refuses...the bride is targeted. There are some men(as in all cultures) who value money over anything else and this dowry case is a prime example of it. I'm yet to hear that any family killed a bride for "dishonoring" the groom by not paying more than the asked dowry...i've only heard of Bride's being killed for not paying the extra money some families ask.

I don't know how you can spin this to be a "honor" issue when its all about money.


btw check this link out. (more and more women are turning in husbands/prospective grooms who ask for dowry)

Singer Hemant arrested in dowry case
Bangalore, Sep 27, dhns:

Playback singer Hemant was arrested on charges of dowry harassment by the Women’s Wing of Basavangudi police station on Saturday.


According to Inspector Satyavathi, the singer was arrested after his wife Priyadarshini lodged a complaint against him.

Priyadarshini had alleged that apart from Hemant, his father Subramanya Shastri, mother Ratna Shastri and sister Chetana Krishna had harassed her for dowry.
The couple were married in 2007. Priyadarshini had moved back to her father’s house one-and-half years ago due to marital discord.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/27531/singer-hemant-arrested-dowry-case.html

[bertman]

30. It's great that more women are turning in the men who demand more dowry; however,

the problem is not solved.

Regarding your comment "Where does it say that the women are killed cos they gave less dowry than required?"

Right here in the National Geographic article I cited earlier: "In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually BECAUSE THEIR DOWRIES ARE CONSIDERED INSUFFICIENT, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)." My emphasis added.

[Vehl]

34. its an ongoing process...

To change such old views takes time...for example..the US is a secular country..but every single day we see how some politician tries to push his religious worldview into state/federal laws/policies. Even though laws exist against such stuff..it does not guarantee such stuff will ever stop happening.

Right here in the National Geographic article I cited earlier: "In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually BECAUSE THEIR DOWRIES ARE CONSIDERED INSUFFICIENT, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF)." My emphasis added.

This does not say how or when the dowry is deemed insufficient..as i said..in most cases the demands for more money come AFTER marriage.
Some of these guys agree to marry for a certain dowry and then after marriage keep on asking for more counting on the fact that the bride is less likely to refuse such demands after marriage. I'n fact its just the Opposite of the "Honour" issue as the roles are reversed here.


BTW this excerpt supports what I was saying all along. That this is a MONETARY(greed) issue and not a "honor" related issue.

[reorg]

48. please stop with your anti-Islam drivel

It's very nice of you if you don't want to diss Islam, but it doesn't help if you continue with doing just that in your next sentence. You obviously know next to nothing about "honor killings" but insist that Sharia demands this practice - which is total bull as you might have found out within a few minutes if you really cared.

Just like FGM, the practice is quite common in some areas where Islam is the dominant religion. But religion has nothing to do with it, even if paternalistic chastity ideals are more than obvious in some of its teachings and rules.

How many murders are committed in Christian countries by husbands who felt cheated by their wifes? It's the same mechanism - pride must be restored - and you can find Bible rules that somehow correspond to this desire ("You shall not covet your neighbor's wife"). Yet it would be a little over the top to accuse the Christian religions and sects of being "related to" all jealousy killings in the US, Latin America and Europe, don't you think?

[WhiteTara]

49. the bride killing in India is more about money

than religion. IIRC

[tavalon]

7. Murder blamed on wiping away a dishonor supposedly done by his daughter

Oftentimes, it is because the daughter was raped and therefore brought "dishonor" to the family.

[WriteDown]

9. This is

http://cbs11tv.com/local/possible.honor.killings.2.840637.html

[Lithos]

19. A killing without honour

...

[slackmaster]

31. Murder sanctioned by ultra-conservative interpretations of the Religion Of Peace

:nuke:

[Xithras]

47. Actually, honor killings aren't just for women.

They tend to get the most press here in the west, but honor killings of men DO happen. Honor killings basically trace their roots back to the old notion that a crime committed by one shames the whole family. Most European countries had similar ideologies until the relatively recent past, so this isn't just a Muslim/Hindu thing.

Several years ago I had a discussion with an Iraqi co-worker about honor killings after another story like this. I thought it was just about women too, but she corrected me on that. She told me about a guy she knew from her time at university who was killed by his father after marrying a Sufi woman without permission from his family and then ceasing to attend his mosque. Her own uncle was killed by several family members after running away from the front lines in the Iran/Iraq war. They were so shamed by his "cowardice" that her grandfather, other uncle, and some cousins dragged him out of the house and shot him in the street. And they were Iraqi Christians (Chaldeans IIRC).

It's certainly more common for women, but it does happen to both genders and is absolutely barbaric no matter WHO the victim is.

[closeupready]

8. Here is some background on this case from the UK's Times Online:

>>The new account of events given by the mother of a girl said to have been murdered in an honour killing, including the disappearance of knives and bin-bags, was outlined by the prosecution at the Old Bailey yesterday.

The court was told that the day after Tulay Goren was “kidnapped” she made a whispered telephone call to her boyfriend Hilal Unal and told him “don’t come here — they are trying to lure you into a trap”.

Her mother, Hanim Goren, has now said that later that day she was told to leave the family house with her younger children and stay at the home of her husband's brother Cuma Goren, 42, in Walthamstow, east London. The eldest brother, Ali, 55, who lives in Ilford, was working in Cumbria at the time.

When she returned next evening Tulay was gone and most of her clothes had vanished, said Jonathan Laidlaw, QC, for the prosecution. <<

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6867161.ece

[get the red out]

10. Patriarchy

Is simply enslavement and death to females. It should not be respected at home or abroad.

[Vehl]

13. Capital Punishment!

I applaud the bravery of this lady....the Murderer should be given the Capital Punishment for such a heinous crime.

[comtec]

16. Why did it take 10 YEARS for this to come to court?

I know the UK justice system is slow but...

[closeupready]

17. It seems from my reading that nobody reported her missing.

It was when her OTHER daughter died in a car crash years after her first daughter 'disappeared', that she began threatening to do so. Though it begs the question, if your daughter really had just disappeared, why WOULDN'T you contact authorities for help in finding her? Clearly, somebody knew something incriminating had happened, and everyone played dumb, like a code of silence, until a crisis made someone snap.

[comtec]

22. These things are so fucking inhuman and barberic...

and the people who say nothing are just...

I just have no words to express my horror at this kind of shit. nothing seems strong enough!

[closeupready]

33. Cultures around the Mediterranean and in the Near East can be oppressively cloying.

Everything revolves around the family - no exceptions whatsoever. If you have a problem child, you take care of him or her YOURSELF. To turn them in to authorities - NO MATTER WHAT THEY'VE DONE - can be viewed as the absolute worst thing one can do.

So we probably have something like that going on here.

Suffice it to say stories like this truly underscore why I am glad I am an American and a product of American culture - despite the flaws, it's better than cultures like this, on balance. We have law and order, and we have some level of trust that the authorities will act in the best interests of everyone.

[comtec]

45. Yeah but brow-beating or turning over to the authorities is a far cry from murder

but i understand the point.

the idea of communal responsibility was started by empires.

its easier to control a populace if punish everyone if one person steps out of line. so everyone polices themselves.

it's probably why there are so many Med'ers here in holland, it certainly explains the gay ones =3.

The idea here is individual responsibility, and as many laws and paperwork and cameras there are here (well speed cameras anyway) it's still pretty laid back.

[Ozymanithrax]

18. We don't do honor killings in America. We kick our children into the streets where they can exist.

as prostitutes and drug addicts.

[closeupready]

20. Yes. Has happened to more than a handful of gay friends of mine - I could actually name them.

But of course, I won't. Just that I could.

"Unconditional love" - :eyes: yeah, right. "Unconditional" does not mean conditional.

[Ozymanithrax]

26. It has happened to children I know, both male and female.

Honor killing is an ugly and vicious act. But we should put it into perspective with acts in our own culture. A parent that tells a child, "Don't bother coming home." or brutalizes children into running, away follows the same path as the honor killer.

[Dreamer Tatum]

28. This is #1 on the list of Logical Fallacies We Must Avoid

The Fallacy of Diversion, with a couple of others (straw man, red herring) blended in.

[Ozymanithrax]

29. No, it was an observation that in our culture we ostracize children that misbehave in that manner..

rather than murder them.

It does not make Honor killing acceptable. Our ways are different, but not necessarily better.

[closeupready]

32. I was advised by a Christian to "shun" my gay friends.

This was on a "Christian" IBB - can't remember the name, but it's the biggest one according to Alexa - I was there very briefly, to test the waters, see how they came up on gay issues (interestingly, many people there were quite pro-gay, :) ), and I started a PM exchange with one girl there, and it came out that "I have a gay friend - what should I do?" and she said "you have to shun them! Shun them or they will lead you to hell!" :eyes:

Shun the "sinner" - so Christ-like, huh? NOT. :mad:

[paulsby]

35. lol. get real

"our ways are different, but not necessarily better"

seriously?

here's a hint. kicking somebody out of your house is far BETTER than killing them.

for pete's sake. our ways are BETTER, in that honor killings are worse.

period.

[Ozymanithrax]

37. So Consinging someone to prostitution and drug addiction is an enlightened..

way of dealing with the problem.

[paulsby]

38. nice evasion and strawman

don't change the goalposts.

i said it was BETTER than killing the person

i didn't say it was enlightened.

don't add intellectual dishonesty on to your plate.

admit it, you made a ridiculous statement equating kicking somebody out of your house with murdering them.

that was dumb

[JonQ]

39. So having to move out is equivalent to murdering them?

I find that a bit . . . inaccurate.

[Quantess]

40. +1

[Odin2005]

50. Brave woman!

I hope Mr. Goren rots in prison for a long tome.