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laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 07:18 PM
Original message
US-German rift emerges over Afghan deaths case
Source: AP

US-German rift emerges over Afghan deaths case
By JASON STRAZIUSO and FRANK JORDANS, Associated Press Writers 33 mins ago

KABUL – An airstrike by U.S. fighter jets that appears to have killed Afghan civilians could turn into a major dispute for NATO allies Germany and the United States, as tensions began rising between them Sunday over Germany's role in ordering the attack.

Afghan officials say up to 70 people were killed in the early morning airstrike Friday in the northern province of Kunduz after Taliban militants stole two tanker trucks of fuel and villagers gathered to siphon off gas.

Afghan and NATO investigations are just beginning, but both German and U.S. officials already appeared to be trying to deflect blame.

German Defense Minister Franz Josef Jung said the Taliban's possession of the two tankers "posed an acute threat to our soldiers." German officials have said the tankers might have been used as suicide bombs.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_afghanistan
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BunkerHill24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hey Germany, kindly stop whining and fix-up your military training..
..before them bomb civilians...


German Troops Bemoan 'Critical' Deficits in Training and Equipment
By Alexander Szandar

Damning reports are emerging from Germany's military forces in Afghanistan, claiming that cooperation with civilian agencies is abysmal, equipment is lacking and training is insufficient. With the US preparing to pressure Berlin to send more troops, there are now increasing calls for "urgent improvements."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,646085,00.html
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oct2010 Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. "Taliban's possession of the two tankers "posed an acute threat to our soldiers."..."
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 08:02 PM by oct2010
It's true German troops do take the lead role in "the quiet" northern areas of Afghanistan so if it turns hot for them, they have to decide what measures need to be taken.
US-German rift emerges over Afghan deaths case

snip

German Defense Minister Franz Josef Jung said the Taliban's possession of the two tankers "posed an acute threat to our soldiers." German officials have said the tankers might have been used as suicide bombs.

......Meanwhile, Rear Adm. Gregory J. Smith, the top U.S. and NATO spokesman in the country, said German troops let too many hours pass before visiting the site of the bombing Friday. He explained that it's important to hold the ground after a strike and determine what happened before the enemy comes out with its own version of events.

The top U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, U.S. Gen. Stanley McChrystal, visited the site Saturday where two charred trucks and yellow gas cans sat on a riverbed. He asked a top commander in Regional Command North about the response time.

"Why didn't RC-North come here quicker?" McChrystal asked Col. Georg Klein, the commander of the German base in Kunduz.

....On Sunday, Smith said that in McChrystal's judgment the response time "was probably longer than it should have been." German troops in Afghanistan have long been criticized for avoiding combat operations, even as militants have increasingly infiltrated northern Afghanistan the last year, destabilizing the once-peaceful region.


German commanders watching images from the U.S. aircraft could see about 120 people, McChrystal said Saturday. The commanders decided that the people were militants and ordered the airstrikes, Smith said, even though images provided by the U.S. aircraft would have been grainy and difficult to see.

Whether the German commanders or the U.S. pilot are at fault for any civilian casualties may turn into an inner-NATO tussle.

Smith said the ground force commander "is the decision maker for close air support. That's doctrine." But he also conceded that a pilot can refuse an order to drop a bomb.


snip

German troops have long been criticized for restrictions that limit the battle their troops see. A U.S. based military analyst, Anthony Cordesman, said German troops don't have "the situational and combat experience" to confront Taliban on the ground. "They're as oriented toward staying in their armored vehicles as any group I've met," Cordesman said. "They're not active enough to present much of a threat to the Taliban most of the time."

Klein rejected the claim that his troops lacked combat experience.

"Since I arrived here we have unfortunately seen many combat situations and my soldiers performed very well," he said.

"But the thing that's always given us a very good reputation in the civilian society here is that we tried as best as possible to exclude any civilian casualties, and I've got very good feedback on that from the Afghan people," he said.


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090906/D9AI0CBG0.html

Now that the knee jerk reactions are settling;

Afghan and NATO investigations are just beginning, but both German and U.S. officials already appeared to be trying to deflect blame.


Seems German troops were slow to respond to the beheading incident of civilian drivers and the pursuit of the bogged down fuel trucks up a dry river gully. Could it have been an ambush ? They ( Germans ) called for eyes in the sky and proceeded with caution in an area that was considered a quiet zone. I wonder when that aircraft video the Germans made decisions over will be declassified or outright leaked as soon as possible on the net ?

Seems nobody wants to point a finger at the whack a mole movements made by the taliban in all this, especially the Afghan nationals living in the quiet northern region.
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BunkerHill24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yup, you have shown why NATO is no longer effective in WINING
strategy in Afghanistan. But, there is a better way to win in Afghanistan: Quit Afghanistan, and find a way to leave without admitting defeat. We are doing it in Iraq, and we are better off doing it in Afghanistan.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. If they were Pashtun civilians, it doesn't really matter
The Pashtun ethnic group is the one from which most Taliban come.

If they were from the Tajik or Uzbek ethnic groups, then it is a problem. They are the ones that you want to ally with in the north of Afghanistan.
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Aragorn Donating Member (784 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. some cilvilians are OK to kill?
That's what you said.

In fact that sounds like an old German argument.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I guess you never heard of "free fire" zones in Vietnam NT
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Babyserendip Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. But only the Pashtuns make good on their obligations of revenge....10, 20, 30, 500 years..
...............they will get it.

The northern "tribes" are not even Afghan.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. The northern tribes are definitely Afghan
The ethnic makeup of Afghanistan is Pashtun 42%, Tajik 27%, Hazara 9%, Uzbek 9%, Aimak 4%, Turkmen 3%, Baloch 2%, other 4%.

Most Pashtuns live south and east of the central mountain range. Most of the rest live north and west.

A reasonable solution would be to split Afghanistan into a Pashtun state in the southwest and a multi-ethnic state in the northwest. Actally, the Pashtuns should be joined with the other half of the Pashtun population in Pakistan.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. I've read reports about the line of decision -> action. 1/2 hour, apparently,
from decision to go and the strike. Not sure what's the "norm" in this kind of scenario, but sure sounds like a cluster f**k.
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Elmore Furth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Six civilians, one child and 48 armed men were killed -- doesn't look like a wedding party
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 08:51 PM by Elmore Furth
The Taliban make it a business of hijacking fuel tankers and driving them into Pakistan. The driver of one of the tankers and his son were murdered by the Taliban.

Am I moralizing too much by suggesting that if you are stealing fuel or taking stolen fuel, you may be putting yourself in harms way?

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009%5C09%5C07%5Cstory_7-9-2009_pg7_48


Violence begets violence by whomever used. War is a dirty business and entails the use of degrading means, whoever wages it. -- A. J. Juste ("Pacifism and Class war" in 'The World Tomorrow, Sept. 1928)
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Aragorn Donating Member (784 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. no
but capital punishment without a trial does seem a bit harsh as a response.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. There's a war going on
You can't wait for a jury to give permission to pull the trigger.
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Libertas1776 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:57 AM
Response to Original message
10. The
Germans order the strike and the Americans carry out the strike and now both are distancing themselves from each others responsibility, engaging in the age old blame game. Meanwhile, 70 Afghans are dead and who knows how many American and NATO soldiers will be dead by month's end. End this madness now. We need to pull out of Afghanistan now!
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