Airlines Hiring "Very Substandard" Pilots

[sabra]

Source: CBS News/AP

Flight 1549 Co-Pilot Says Industry Forced To Accept Minimum FAA Qualification Levels

(CBS/AP) The first officer of US Airways Flight 1549, whose crew demonstrated remarkable skill in saving the lives of everyone on board after making an emergency landing in the Hudson River earlier this year, says the airline industry is accepting pilots whose qualifications are the bare minimum accepted by the FAA - standards some critics say aren't high enough.

The comments come on the heels of National Transportation Safety Board testimony last month which revealed that a series of critical errors by the captain and co-pilot preceded the crash of the twin engine turboprop on February 12, killing 50 people.

Critics are focusing their attention on pilot training and working conditions.

In a review of NTSB accident records, USA Today yesterday revealed that in most serious accidents over the past decade, pilots who had a history of failing skills and performance tests were at the controls.

Most of these accidents involved smaller regional airlines, which account for roughly half of all domestic flights.

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/09/earlyshow/main5074716.shtml?tag=topStories;secondStory

[dipsydoodle]

1. It would appear so

[dorkulon]

14. ...

[napi21]

2. The problem is very heavily concentratedd on the regional airlines.

I have to say, I was SHOCKED when I heard the pilots of regional jets make $17,000 a year! /that'S OBCENE!

[Downwinder]

4. You get what you pay for.

[RamboLiberal]

8. It's not just the regionals

The copilot of the US Airways jet that landed in the Hudson said he has to have a side business to maintain his standard of living. I know living in Pittsburgh where US Airways was one time the airline of this city how the pilots, flight attendants, and other line workers took pay cuts, lost pensions, etc. while the bigwigs got their golden parachutes how bad it's become.

Skiles also testified that, because of the economic turmoil facing the airline industry over the last several years has hit pilots hard. his salary has been reduced in half, and he's lost his pension.

"Many pilots like Captain Sullenberger and myself have had to split their focus from the airline piloting profession and develop alternative businesses or careers," Skiles said. "I myself am a general contractor. For the last 6 years, I have worked 7 days a week between my two jobs just to maintain a middle class standard of living."

The result, Skiles testified, is that experienced pilots are leaving the industry for other, more lucrative career fields, and are being replaced with inexperienced pilots.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/09/earlyshow/main5074716.shtml?tag=topHome;topStories

[bdab1973]

21. Note it said "maintain his standard of living"

That's a bit different than saying he has to work a second job to put food on the table. I'd argue that he makes a fairly comfortable salary, although it is true that US Airways pilots took a pay reduction to keep the company afloat. I think he had been with US Airways for a pretty significant amount of time, so he's probably still making over $100K a year.

[RamboLiberal]

25. Yeah but most of us live up to our highest earnings

Note he said his pay was cut in half. So unless he wanted to downsize he had to take that 2nd career. I'd rather see my pilots rested and not needing that 2nd career to continue their accustomed "lifestyle".

And there are some professions where my life is in their hands where I want them well-paid and skilled.

[bdab1973]

32. I guarantee you that the copilot is well paid.

The copilot on the US Airways flight was a long-time vet of the airline, and I can assure you he likely still makes well over $100K a year. I can't say for sure, but I have a feeling the "cut in half" statement was more a figure of speech. Pay at legacy carriers like US Airways have been reduced, around some 20-30%, but not by half.

Even I will have to deal with a pay cut...when I retire from the military and join an airline, I will likely have to absorb a pretty steep pay cut for a few years. It's just life sometimes. Airlines have very high overhead, and the salaries at the larger airlines were really high back in the late 1990s, prior to 9/11. Some guys were making well over $200K a year.

[Hawkowl]

35. WTF?

Do you just pull these numbers out of your ass? I swear to god, DU has been overrun by militant ignoramuses these past couple of years.

I'm an airline pilot and pilot wages and wage scales are readily available to anyone on the web. Christ.

US Air First Officers on that type of Airbus make $94 per flight hour. That translates roughly into $50 - 60K per year.

[bdab1973]

36. I know what they make...

I thought you guys were guaranteed at least something like 70ish hours a month? And could fly well over that if you chose to? I know that an FO at US Airways isn't making $150K a year anymore, but at $94 a flight hour, you should be able to pull in around 100K a year if you wanted to.

In fact, I seem to remember reading that US Airways pilots are guaranteed 72 hours a month (77 a month if sitting reserve, I think). If he was hurting for money he could fly over his minimum...he's got a lot of seniority for an FO, he should be able to bid for what he wants. But I also know that some airline pilots would rather make less and work less...again, a personal choice.

Granted, if he does in fact want to maintain his older "standard of living", then I suppose he would need to find a way to make up the lost $40-50k a year...but that's his choice. I fly for the military and I make less than 6-figures (around 94K a year right now), and I think my "standard of living" is just fine.

I may not be an "expert" on airline pay scales, but I work with and know many that fly for the airlines and it's been explained to me on many occasions. I know at least 3-4 guys that fly for SWA (none of them are on active duty anymore...but they all fly for the reserves/Guard), a couple fellow active-duty C-130 instructors that are on mil-leave with United, and one on mil-leave with Delta. In fact one of the United guys even spent time showing me their online bid system and how they calculate pay and work schedules.

Anyways, do the math...if the subject FO has a monthly guarantee of 72 credit hours at $94 an hour (assuming he doesn't fly more than his min credit), he'll get paid $6768.00 per bid period. That's around $80,000+ a year just working the minimum guarantee. That also doesn't include the per diem pay either, or any other pay above and beyond the minimum credit hours. A good friend of mine that used to fly for TSA (and now works for the FAA) said he routinely flew well over his minimum hours.

[Hawkowl]

34. No, he's not

He's been at US Air for about 20 years and makes $94 per FLIGHT hour. That translates into about $50K a year.

Don't spout bullshit when you don't know what you're talking about, or just too lazy to look up a payscale.

[bdab1973]

37. So you're saying he only flies 44 hours a month?

I have many friends at SWA and they all fly around 90-100 hours a month if they want to. They are guaranteed something like 70 hours a month. I do understand that US Airways took it in the rear end when it came to pilot pay (compared to other airlines), but at $94 a flight hour he should be able to still make decent money.

[high density]

10. Regionals are providing low bid service to the mainline airlines

The desire for higher flight frequency has led to smaller planes and more business for the regionals. The system as it is today seems unsustainable.

[aquamarina]

3. I find this stat remarkable...

especially since my brother is a pilot - flew helicopters for 20 years with the Marines and has been a pilot with American Eagle for 12 years. He has a zillion flight hours, a perfect record, and can't get a job with one of the major carriers. The pay differential between the computer planes and major jets is astronomical. It is especially strange since all the vietnam era pilots are coming up to retirement...

I really don't know what to make of this information.

[ensho]

5. just read this a.m. that airlines lost 9 billion this yr.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090608/ap_on_bi_ge/as_airline_losses;_ylt=AofRsrPFT03kczSGTfBP6pP9xg8F;_ylu=X3oDMTMxNjBqcmQ2BGFzc2V0Ay9hcC8yMDA5MDYwOC9hcF9vbl9iaV9nZS9hc19haXJsaW5lX2xvc3NlcwRjcG9zAzMEcG9zAzMEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawN3b3JsZGFpcmxpbmU

[havocmom]

7. Have figured, for a long time, airlines WANT to go outta business

The treat employees like dirt, and anger gets passed down the line to customers by many employees who have had enough abuse. They treat customers like dirt. They outsource as much as they can to get things on the cheap and they are losing business. NOT a surprise. What is surprising is that the guys in the executive suites still get paid. So, one might assume, flying the airlines into the ground is part of their plan.

untied.com for United employees' horror stories.

[Captain Hilts]

11. And people blame Amtrak it can't run at a profit....nt

[LiberalFighter]

6. They need to publicize this more. Buyer beware.

Of course, it would be even more helpful if airlines were required to post some sort of qualifications or grade of each pilot that flies the particular plane. And have it available online.

[phantom power]

9. you can see how this is going to go down

more people are going to start getting killed in commuter plane crashes. Customers will start avoiding them, thus crushing the commuter airline industry. They will return to hiring qualified pilots.

Republicans will claim that The Market System Worked.

[dipsydoodle]

16. and the companies which survive

will increase their prices to the level necessary for them to be profitable........which actually what should've been done in the first place.

[disndat]

12. More of Bush's deregulation horror stories

He deregulated the S.E.C, F.C.C., F.D.A., the banking industry, the Airlines, etc.. He is not only the worst president in U.S. history but the most dangerous. Everything for the C.E.O.s and nothing for the workers.

[Catshrink]

13. He wanted to bring back the robber barons.

And it seems like he succeeded.

[AngryAmish]

15. Soon enough pilots will be replaced by robots

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_91wEXEZ2Srk/SWAD6QILldI/AAAAAAAAANw/QNh09WNKenE/s400/airplane+AutoPilot+crop.jpg

People like to fly. People also like low fares. So pilots will get their wages bid down, especially when their jobs become almost all automated.

[jimmil]

17. I would not say "VERY" substandard pilots...

In years past the airlines had a ready supply of pilots leaving the military for high paying jobs in the airline industry. With the military cutting back on their fleets due to the high cost of military hardware there are less and less positions available to that venue of flight instruction. Couple that with the low pay of pilots flying right seat (and may I add that this was pioneered by Southwest) that they cannot support themselves and are forced to take other jobs to make ends meet.

Now days you have a majority of pilots taking flight instruction jobs to build time. Instead of sharpening their skills at flying, flight instructors are more or less babysitting. If they are lucky they may land a job as a freight dog flying checks at night around the state and between cities. All they are doing is building time so that they reach the magic mark of somewhere around 1500 hours with 500 being multiengine time. This is in no way the best way to actually learn how to fly in emergency situations.

Flight instruction given by the airlines is good. They take the pilot through many emergency situations in the simulator to allow them to learn what it takes to keep they airplane flying. Some may think that this is not the best one can do but believe me, if you can fly the simulator flying the actual aircraft is much easier. Every six months they are required to go back into the sim and review emergency procedures. If they do not pass that they will receive more instruction and are required to fly a number of hours with a check airman until they are passed.

As far as pay things over the past twenty years has changed dramatically. Southwest started the whole deal because they knew that there is a ready supply of newer pilots just foaming at the mouth to climb into a cockpit. As a matter of fact, Southwest requires that a new pilot coming into their program to already have a sign off for the 737. How and where they get that they don't care. It saves them hundreds of thousands of dollars yearly. Regardless, many years ago Southwest started their pilots out flying right seat $17K a year. Pilots put up with this because SW was expanding rapidly and within three or so years they would be in the left seat making very good money and their retirement growing by leaps and bounds due to stock in the company being part of that. Other airlines modeled their programs on the same lines. You just can't argue with success. Fast forward to 2009 and what has happened is there are fewer pilots retiring, fewer hired due to company growth, and a glut of young pilots looking for the big bucks in the majors. Regionals can pay them dirt because if they leave there are 10 more just waiting for the chance. They are able to keep pilots longer because there are no slots available in the majors.

Finally, just my 2 cents, flying is not difficult. I have found many airline pilots really do not know how to fly like a real pilot. Few have ever done any spin training beyond requirements. Most have never been upside down in an airplane. In short many have never developed the skills I think would make them better pilots and better able to handle an airplane in difficult or emergency situations.

Well, that's my opinion. I could be wrong.

[bdab1973]

19. Southwest FOs are actually among the better paid...

These days a SWA copilot starting out makes about $10k more than FOs at other carriers, and you can easily make over $100K a year as an FO at SWA within 5 years or so. Perhaps they started out that way, being a fairly new company they probably didn't have the revenue to pay their pilots much. But SWA is a highly sought-after job because of the fact that they pay fairly well and they don't have ridiculously low pay for new FOs.

With regards to requiring a 737 type rating, it must be a type rating obtained from an approved training curriculum. You can't simply go get a 737 type, say, in India or some other fly-by-night location and expect SWA to accept that. In addition, requiring a type rating for employment is nothing new...many business jet operators require (or highly prefer) pilots with type ratings in the aircraft they operate. It only makes sense. If there are 100 pilots in a hiring pool, and they are all very well trained, top notch pilots, and 30 of them have a 737 type, as an HR person you'd be an idiot NOT to hire the 737-typed folks.

The fact of the matter is the pilot profession is a very overpopulated career field. Military pilots have an edge up because most operators recognize military training as among the best, not to mention that you can't simply pay your way to graduation like you can at a civilian flight training facility. And yes, most military pilots receive spin training and a bunch of other training and operational experiences that civilian pilots do not receive. But that still doesn't deter many from gaining their ratings through civilian training academies, and hoping for the stars. So long as there is a glut of pilots eager to find work, you'll find airlines willing to pay them peanuts for the privilege of sitting in that right seat. The majors pay better because they can. The regionals don't pay so well because A) they have lower profit margins and B) they know they are essentially a revolving door for people trying to climb the ladder to a major airline.

[XemaSab]

22. I would guess that the other half of the military-to-pilot equation

is that skilled pilots get out of the military with that one skill, and they suddenly need to make a living.

[bdab1973]

23. Not true

I have many, many friends that have left the military aviation world and are working in non-flying capacities. Being an officer (and many also get their MBA while in the service) equates to management, and several of my friends now work for businesses that have nothing to do with aircraft.

[XemaSab]

24. Good to know

Thanks

[Hekate]

18. I'd also look at pilots flying double shifts and shifts with too little rest in between...

Not to mention those air traffic controllers who are the heirs of Reagan's union-busting move to take away their ability to keep reasonably sane working conditions -- they're about to retire in a big wave, having been all hired at the same time.

Oh -- not to mention the outsourcing of routine maintenance of the big birds.

Altogether, an industry that simply cries out for tight re-regulation...

Did I mention the increasingly unhealthful conditions for passengers, too?

Hekate

[bdab1973]

20. Pilots don't work "double shifts"

There are crew rest regulations that dictate how many hours a pilot can be on duty. If an airline violates this even a little, they can be fined fairly substantially. In addition, pilots are required to be given a minimum amount of time between duty, known as "crew rest". I'm currently a military pilot and right now, the maximum duty day I can work is 16 hours, after which I must be given 12 hours of crew rest before I can show again for work. The FAA's rules are a little different, but they are very similar.

[Hekate]

26. Ahh, 16 hours would be a single shift? Thanks for the clarification.

Lessee, 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.
Rest, and return to work at 10:00 a.m.
10:00 a.m. to 2:00 a.m.
Rest, and return to work at 2:00 p.m.

Okay, but most jobs run an 8-hour shift, and most jobs don't have people's lives hanging in the balance. But if a 16-hour day seems normal to you, who am I to argue?

Hekate

[bdab1973]

30. How do you fly from New York to Tokyo on an 8 hour work day?

Your comparison between flying aircraft and going to work at a bank or something is comparing apples to oranges. Sure, people's lives "hang in the balance", but I've flown on many 16 hour (and even a few 18 hour) days. Besides, most of the longer "shifts" (if you call it that) have augmented crews. In any case, my 16-hour example's using the military rules. I don't know the FAA crew duty cycle because I'm not yet flying commercially.

In any case, airline pilot work schedules are nothing like traditional work schedules. The one you provided would not make any sense. Typically, airline pilots work 3-4 days in a row. They'll usually show early in the morning and fly until later that night (not to exceed the FAA and company's duty cycle). They will go to a hotel that evening and repeat the same schedule the next morning. It's not too much different than any other job, except after their 3-4 day trip, they get 3-4 days off.

Even we (military aviation) don't follow your "example" schedule. We'd fly a 14-18 hour day (depending on where we were flying to) and then had well over 12 hours off (usually closer to 24 hours off).

[RamboLiberal]

27. Problem is defining crew rest

The co-pilot of the Buffalo flight that crashed - her hours flying cross-country overnight was counted as rest. The pilot of that flight napping in the crew lounge was counted technically at rest. Sometimes for some of these pilots by the time they get to a hotel, get dinner, get to sleep really digs in to that time that is counted as "rest".

[Hekate]

28. Thank you Rambo. That's kinda what I figured. nt

[jimmil]

29. No one can regulate a pilot's free time.

The co-pilot of the Buffalo flight chose to use their time in such a way. My opinion is that is highly unprofessional. Many flight crews live in other cities besides where home base is. The airline companies have no control over that. If a crew member chooses to commute from Seattle to NY or elsewhere and then check in for a flight they can. How can the airlines or the FAA regulate that? I wish they could.

[bdab1973]

31. Crew rest is crew rest...the employer is not responsible for what you do in that time.

The copilot CHOSE to live in Washington state. The airline didn't force her to live there. She cited that it was cheaper...she could have found a roommate and lived closer to the east coast. She could have lived in some town that wasn't on the other side of the freakin' country. Granted, it's her decision to do so, but no one twisted her arm. I have a ton of friends that fly for airlines. Some of them choose to live far-removed from their airline operating base. Others prefer to live closer.

And as far as eating and going to a hotel, well, that's all time away from work. I've flown that circuit quite a bit. I was a Learjet pilot for the USAF a few years back and we often made multi-day trips where we'd have to check into a hotel and eat. Sorry, from my point of view, the USAF (or any other employer) shouldn't be required to count that as "company time", because it was up to us where we ate, and sometimes we'd grab something quick and head to bed, and other times we chose to make a night out of it and go somewhere nice and live it up. Why should that count as "company time"? You have to draw the line somewhere...I know the military uses 12 hours as a minimum for crew rest. They assume 8 hours of sleep and 4 hours to get to your room, eat, etc. If you can't eat and get to your room in 4 hours, then something's wrong.

[Love Bug]

33. Regional Airlines Paying "Very Substandard" Wages

Is there a connection, maybe?

:sarcasm: