Vatican blocks Caroline Kennedy appointment as US ambassador

[IndianaGreen]

Source: The Telegraph (UK)

Vatican blocks Caroline Kennedy appointment as US ambassador

The Vatican has blocked the appointment of Caroline Kennedy as US ambassador, according to reports.

By Alex Spillius in Washington
Last Updated: 8:37AM BST 11 Apr 2009

Vatican sources told Il Giornale that their support for abortion disqualified Ms Kennedy and other Roman Catholics President Barack Obama had been seeking to appoint.

Mr Obama was reportedly seeking to reward John F Kennedy's daughter, who publicly gave her support to his election bid. She had been poised to replace Hillary Clinton as New York senator, but dropped out amid criticism that she lacked enough experience for the job.

The Italian paper said that the Vatican strongly disapproved of Mr Obama's support for abortion and stem cell research. The impasse over the ambassadorial appointment threatens to cloud his meeting with the Pope during a G8 summit in Itay in July.

Ms Kennedy, 53, has said that she supports abortion. Raymond Flynn, a former US ambassador to the Vatican, said earlier this week that Ms Kennedy would be a poor choice.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/5138135/Vatican-blocks-Caroline-Kennedy-appointment-as-US-ambassador.html

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/5138135/Vatican-blocks-Caroline-Kennedy-appointment-as-US-ambassador.html

---

Someone ought to tell the former Hitler Youth and enabler of Holocaust deniers of a Pope that our ambassador represents the United States of America, not the fraking Vatican.

:grr:

[neverforget]

1. I am so happy that I am no longer a Catholic. Fuck them.

[tomm2thumbs]

25. ••• BILL MAHER FOR AMBASSADOR!!! ••••

They'll be begging for Caroline!

[friedgreentomatoes]

49. .

:spank:

:thumbsup:

[defendandprotect]

105. Caroline Kennedy is pro-choice on stem cells and abortion . . .

and she's a female ---

a really frightening prospect for the anti-condom Pope!!!

[sallyseven]

72. Me too. Ray Flynn is just

a senile old drunk

[Gormy Cuss]

87. Sheesh. Hauling out Ray Flynn to comment against a Kennedy?

His brain must be gone.

[EFerrari]

2. What an ungracious @ss. n/t

[elocs]

3. This was posted here at 7:19 p.m. here, so it is not Latest Breaking News:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8335833

[IndianaGreen]

4. I did a search on 'Vatican' before posting this story

and I just did it again after reading your post. It doesn't show in the DU search:

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Topic started by on Dec-31-69 06:00 PM (0 replies)

[elocs]

11. On this point I must say I have never had much success doing a DU search,

so I could see how that would happen.

[barbtries]

65. ditto

i always search before posting to latest breaking, and it always seems to turn out that i've duped a subject.

[IndianaGreen]

5. On second thought, the thread you referred to is in GD Politics, not LBN

and it is less than 24 hours old. This explains why I didn't find the referred thread when I did a DU search, as all responsible posters are supposed to do.

[elocs]

9. I have found here that if you are not all over a story within 5 minutes after it happens

that 3 or 4 posters will beat you to it (in fact sometimes you will see a couple of people posting it at the same minute) If any story is hours old I would never post it as LBN, but would feel safe about posting it in GD.

[AlphaCentauri]

6. I though the vatican was a state not a church n/t

[defendandprotect]

20. Vatican is a one mile STATE . . . which onl y MALES occupy . . . !!!!

[orleans]

33. it certainly is a state of mind, that's for sure. ugh. n/t

[saigon68]

130. These deviants need to stop

fondling children's genitals

[harmonicon]

7. common sense money saving tip #114,937

Don't have a fucking ambassador to the vatican!!

[EFerrari]

12. I don't think Obama would want to lose all those Catholic donations.

[harmonicon]

30. well, that calls for common sense politics tip #7:

all races for political office should be publicly funded; baring any donations or support from individuals, corporations, unions, etc. Everyone who can get on the ballot is alloted equal media exposure.

[EFerrari]

32. If we don't do it at local level, it will never happen. DC is never going to do it.

[No Elephants]

41. I'm not sure he would

lose them under these circumstances.

The neo theo Catholics didn't contribute to him anyway. Or vote for him. The sane ones will see that this is the Vatican insulting him, Caroline Kennedy, a very good Catholic, from a very good Catholic family, and all who support choice, not Obama insulting the Vatican.

Any appointment hemakes is another opportunity for the Vatican to diss him. Why should he, as head of America have to put up with that?

BTW, Obama never had an abortion and neither did Caroline, or does either of them support abortion. The Guardian misstated it. They support the right of a woman to choose.

It's ironic, This Church gave Joe Kennedy an "annulment" and made bastards of his kids so he could marry his mistress, and just annuled both of Newt's prior marriages. Not to mention giving Cardinal Lay a Vatican high post and making Rat Zinger Pope after both their roles in transferring pedophile priests from one unsuspecting parish to the next and another fresh batch of victims for DECADES. But they cannot let Caroline sully their threshhold, even though she's lived an exemplary Catholic life.


The hypocrisy sickens and maddens.

[EFerrari]

42. My mantra for the night seems to be, don't let the turkeys get to you.

:)

[TexasProgresive]

83. Just a small correction

A declaration of nullity does not make any child of the marriage a bastard. That is a civil thing-Illegitimate=bastard. The annulment is granted because the church court decides on the evidence that there never was a sacrament of matrimony. This process can only begin after the civil (secular) procedure of divorce is final. Neither divorce or annulment makes a child of that union a bastard.

"Nolo carborundum illigetimi est!"

[No Elephants]

112. "Correction?' LOL. No marriage ever

existed, yet the child is not born out of wedlock. Can anyone really believe that without having been brainwashed?

Try to explain to a kid ad his classmates that his parents were never married, but it's no biggie relative to him. In fact, try to explain it to Joe Kennedy's first wife.

No marriage ever existed=child born out of wedlock, aka bastard. I don't care how much the Church twists itself into a pretzel to claim otherwise.

Divorce is not relevant. Divorce recognizes the existence of a marriage, but dissolves it civilly. Hence the issue of children born out of wedlock does not arise, except in the case of annulment.

[Hulk]

8. Then F*CK THEM!!

Who gives a rat's ass what the Nazi pope and his Vatican gold mine want. F*CK THEM!!

[Warpy]

10. Since the appointment is largely ceremonial

just let it go unfilled.

This pope doesn't deserve to have an ambassador.

I left the church many years ago. If I hadn't, this asshole would have been the final straw.

I think his churches need a visit from the tax man. When that happens, perhaps he'll reconsider trying to make his dogma into civil law.

[JDPriestly]

38. Obama cannot apply a religious test in appointing anyone, not even

the ambassador to the Vatican. Just who does this Pope think he is that he can dictate to a nation that is in large part not Catholic his Catholic test for our ambassador. Does the Vatican accept ambassadors from other countries who support abortion and stem cell research? The Pope is interfering in our internal politics and should stop it.

[Warpy]

91. Exactly why it should go untilled

Let's avoid paying tribute to this old bastard for four years, let him stew in his own stench and see how he likes being ignored.

Rome is still powerful, but not quite as powerful as he thinks it is. Not under him as pope. He's making enemies all over the place.

[Skittles]

13. is support for war a disqualification?

support for the death penalty?

[No Elephants]

44. Support for war or the death penalty cannot be a disqualification, or the Vatican would have

sent home the Republican appointee. Ditto real concern for the poor, elderly and disabled. Whether suppport for gay marriage is a disqualifier remains to be seen.

Our tax laws need an overhaul. You cannot have separation of church and state if the state subsidized the church and the church dictates to the state. While we're at it, I am VERY sorry Obama chose to do better at FBIs (faith based initiatives) than did Bush. Bush established the office, but let it lanquish. Obama is actually doing something with it, when he should have abolished it.

Between the lobbyists and the neo theos....

[AngryOldDem]

124. No, because it's easy to equivocate on those issues.

Despite what the Catechism says, as well as hundreds of pages of papal encyclicals.

It's one of the biggest hypocrisies the Church foments and is one of thousands of reasons why I left it. The latest pretzel logic is that concern over the economy is being selfish because it takes the focus off the true issue which is -- drumroll please! -- abortion.

How anyone can take seriously what comes out of Rome is beyond me. Christ is probably weeping to see what "His" church has become.

[closeupready]

14. Ratzinger is such a disgrace.

:mad: We ought to tell them fine, you don't GET an ambassador then.

[IndianaGreen]

16. Even the Catholics in my office are disappointed with the German Pope

They still love their Church and participate in the sacraments and attend mass regularly, but they voted for Kerry in '04 and Obama in '08. I am sure the Vatican holds a negative view on American Catholics that voted Democratic in November.

[aggiesal]

43. I don't believe the Vatican holds a negative view on ...

American Catholics.
I know plenty of Catholic Clergy that voted for Obama.

The Democratic Party shares more of the same beliefs that the Catholic church does, then the repugs.
The church is anti-war, pro-living wage, pro healthcare for all, pro social safety net, ...

Unfortunately, when you're a one issue voter, this is what you get.

[No Elephants]

45. The vatican seems to be the one issue voter in this instance.

[aggiesal]

48. Agreed! n/t

[tomm2thumbs]

15. It's great they are self-marginalizing their religion -nominate a child-raping priest instead?

These folks are useless.

Obama should say ' that is very interesting that you have no interest in trying to impart your thinking on someone who you would hope to influence, and you are passing up an opportunity to help educate the U.S. and change minds through your interactions with a member of the Catholic Church in America.'

[lostnfound]

51. True -- they could have said "we disagree with Ms. Kennedy's position on legal abortion, but

we hope to change her mind.." :shrug:

[caseymoz]

17. So? As a sovereign state, the Vatican is a joke.

It's about time somebody laughed at it. If the Vatican refuses our ambassador on religious grounds, not as an affair of state, it's better to treat them like a religion and not a state.

I mean how did we end up treating it like a nation? Oh, right, Ronald Reagan started it. It has a land area of .17 miles. That's six square blocks in the average US city. The population is 783 people at night, about 3,000 during the day as the "lay" workers commute to work there (the buildings there are pretty long and high). That's right, we've been treating six square blocks district in the middle of Rome as though it were a real nation. It's like giving the French Quarter in New Orleans its own state government.

As a religion now, they're no laughing matter, but at least its entitled to be treated as a very influential religious power.

[IndianaGreen]

19. If the Vatican were a real country, the all male and celibacy would have ended it

centuries ago. No sex, no offsprings.

[tomm2thumbs]

22. good point - so should Russia choose our representatives? or Iran?

Irony, wasn't JFK tormented about being the first Catholic President and said he will not be told by the Pope what to do - and here we are being told by the Pope what to do?

[excess_3]

26. the 'ambassadorship' is not to the Vatican

although that is the common term

the diplomatic relationships in question are between the
US and the Holy See.

[defendandprotect]

107. UN should not recognize the "Holy See" . . . a lot of petitions went to UN on that ...

a few years ago ---

Insanity!

[No Elephants]

113. All the more reason not to appoint an ambassador. Either that, or we should appoint one to every

religious See on the planet, no? How come we honor only one?

[Wabbajack_]

139. legally it is a sovreign state

[Lyric]

18. Tell the Vatican that Caroline IS their ambassador. If they don't like it

then they can refuse to see her and lose all political contact with the United States.

We do not choose ambassadors based on religious dogma. Unlike the Vatican, we are not a theocracy, and we do not CODDLE theocracies.

[aggiesal]

47. "... we do not coddle theocracies." ...

Are you kidding?

What about Isreal?
Or Saudi Arabia?
Both theocracies, and both coddled.

Every sovereign state has the right to refuse an Ambassador from another sovereign state, based
on their beliefs.
If a country like Iran assigned an Ambassador to the US that is a known terrorist, the US would simply
claim that ambassador as Persona Nongrata, and not allow that ambassador to even enter the country.

Likewise, if the US assigned an Ambassador to Isreal that is pro-Palestinian, you think Isreal would
allow the US Ambassador to take the position? Of course not.

So if the Vatican doesn't like the appointment of Caroline Kennedy, they have the right to refuse.
We may not like it, we may not agree with it, but they have that right, we'll have to live with it.

[No Elephants]

62. I am not for coddling Saudi Arabia, Israel or any other nation, but the Vatican

cannot be compared to Saudi Arabia or Israel. That latter two are actual countries. Things beside religion go on there. Raising families, schools, industry, etc. The Vatican is little more than a glorified monastery cum tourists.

[barbtries]

69. i like your idea the best

it makes sense.

[kiranon]

138. Agree. It's Caroline or no one will be appointed Ambassador to the Vatican.

[defendandprotect]

21. And Reagan started this crap with a US Ambassardor to the Vatifan . . !!!

We should stop this nonsense . . .

And the UN should also kick the Vatican out --- it's a church!!!

[IndianaGreen]

23. I totally agree! The Vatican is not a real country.

The Vatican occupies land stolen from the Italians.

[defendandprotect]

27. Vatican for UN purposes is "a sovereign nation" .... 1 mile/all males . .

[JDPriestly]

39. Don't a few nuns live there also?

[theHandpuppet]

59. Someone has to mop, cook and iron

Ah yes, the House of Saud isn't the only champion for women's rights. :sarcasm:

[No Elephants]

63. And lay out the Pope's clothing. Who said there's no

equal opportunity for females in the Catholic Church? Nuns get to be the Pope's valets.

[TankLV]

79. It's primarily a CHURCH - we don't have ambassadors to other CHURCHES...

the fucking "vatican" is INSEPARABLE from the "church".

Nice try at misdirection...NOT!!!

[defendandprotect]

103. Yes . . .Vatican is a CHURCH and there should be no Ambassador . . .!!!

We have Reagan to thank for that -- !!!

Nor do I think we should be giving taxpayer money to faith-based organizations!!

THAT'S MISDIRECTION --- !!!

My refutation of the Vatican as a "state" and as a "sovereign nation" should have

been in quotes -- both times. :)

[No Elephants]

120. Apparently, it's a little more complicated than

that. http://www.americanambassadors.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=Publications.article&articleid=44

[ShareTheWoods]

24. Do we need to keep the Catholic vote?

That is the question.

[IndianaGreen]

28. American Catholics are not the Vatican

Our Catholics have been ignoring the Vatican since Pope Paul VI said the pill was a no-no.

[EFerrari]

35. Yes, we do. n/t

[No Elephants]

55. We need every vote. The real question is, Do we really lose the Catholic vote if we do something

like getting too busy to appoint an ambassador....ever again.

I am not sure we will.

[Webster Green]

29. The Pope is a fucking asshole!

Man, I hate the catholic fucking church! :mad:

[Politicalboi]

31. Well when the rest of the world

Can cure diseases with stem cells we will remember that the Vatican doesn't want our cures. FU Pope.

[orleans]

34. i've been looking for an excuse to post this:

Lyrics to Poke At The Pope by donovan :

Have you ever seen a picture of Pope Paul?
Have you ever asked yourself this question,
Would you trust this man with your soul now?
Would you trust this man? ask yourself now

His eyes are sunken and his cheeks are hollow
While you dig the poor of the world they follow
He hoarding up their gold in the Vatican
Would you trust this man? ask yourself now

A poke at the Pope, that's what we're havin'

Ave Maria, Ave Maria...

Do you remember when the floods hit Italy?
How the things they treasured most were destroyed
All the paintings and the worshipped images
'Cos they lost their faith in the real God

He's goin' down and he's goin' down fast
You really didn't think the ignorance could last
All the little children are learning
And the constellation is turning.

A poke at the Pope, that's what we're havin'

Mumbling by the tumbling tide
The kind of America humbly cried
Save my soul, save it soon!
The king of America fell in swoon

Oh yea, my honey, Oh yea my honey...

[winyanstaz]

36. Amen

re:Someone ought to tell the former Hitler Youth and enabler of Holocaust deniers of a Pope that our ambassador represents the United States of America, not the fraking Vatican.
Amen again

[JDPriestly]

37. Our Constitution prohibits applying a religious test in appointing

people to public offices. If the Vatican doesn't like the ambassador who represents the U.S., then we shouldn't have an ambassador to the Vatican. Our Constitution comes first.

[No Elephants]

46. This is not about a religious test. Caroline Kennedy is a Catholic and I'm guessing most of

our Ambassadors to the Vatican have been Catholics (at least nominally) for a while. Republicans once would have had a hard time finding Catholics, being the WASP party that they were, but that has changed in the last several decades. It is about being pro-choice, no matter what your religion is.

It just struck me. Obama should nominate Newt as Ambassador to the Vatican and shine a bright spotlight on hypocrisy.

Republicans like Reagan and Poppy Bush stopped talking to McCain after he divorced his wife. Newt's done that to two women-and the Catholic Church just gave him two annulments.

Or, how about Eric MacLeish, one of the attorneys for the victims of Father Porter and other Boston pedophile priests. He already knows Cardinal Law, so he'd have a relationship with one of the higher ups in the Vatican frome the jump. Not a good relationship, of course but at least no one would have to introduce them. Rick is as very bright, ethical, effective (just ask Cardinal Law), able to compromise (just ask Cardinal Law), organized and as personable as they come. He'd make a perfect ambassador.

[AndyTiedye]

125. I Like that Last Suggestion!

Or, how about Eric MacLeish, one of the attorneys for the victims of Father Porter and other Boston pedophile priests. He already knows Cardinal Law, so he'd have a relationship with one of the higher ups in the Vatican frome the jump. Not a good relationship, of course but at least no one would have to introduce them. Rick is as very bright, ethical, effective (just ask Cardinal Law), able to compromise (just ask Cardinal Law), organized and as personable as they come. He'd make a perfect ambassador.

:rofl:


Ever wonder how Maledict became Pope?

[riverdeep]

40. How can they 'block' it?

They can tell us they don't like it, and we can comply or tell them to go to hell.

[NashVegas]

93. They Could Refuse To Allow Her to Meet w/Officials

[lostnfound]

50. Could it be a clue that lobbying for political change isn't swaying hearts and minds...

if the daughter of the first Catholic president in the US ends up in this position? So much energy has gone into convincing people to make abortion illegal (i.e., we should use the arm of the law to stop them) vs convincing people (i.e, individuals) that abortion is wrong.. Adultery is a sin, but the Vatican isn't campaigning to make it illegal.

I don't understand where the biblical basis for populist law-making is found. In Jesus' time, there was no democracy.

[Sherman A1]

52. While I am equally offended by this act by the Vatican I would hope that

the administration really does nothing. I would hope they do not appoint another person to the post, I would hope that they do not visit the Vatican on any visits to Europe and if the Pope comes to the US, he can be met by a low level representative of the US Government.

This is a diplomatic insult to the United States Government and thereby it's people and should be treated as such.


I would simply ignore the Vatican at any and all opportunities, which I believe is really pretty easy to do.

[No Elephants]

54. Low level seems like lose lose to me. It will enrage people, yet it still

could be be giving him official recognition, after he insulted our nation by refusing to our ambassador.

Either be gracious and treat him as we have treated all other Popes--coming out as the much bigger person, or snub him totally. Low level is the worst of both worlds.

I don't know what I would like to see more. However, I know I don't want to see that position filled while any Democrat is in the Oval Office. Just because someone created the fiction that the Vatican is a State, we don't have to keep acting as though it actually is. It is a mile of property owned by the Catholic Church and peopled by clerics and those who serve them. One big monastery cum tourist attraction. No ambassador warranted.

[Sherman A1]

57. I agree and disagree at the same time

I do see your point on a low level representative being a snub and enraging some (but, some will be enraged in any event for whatever reason they choose on that particular day). Yet, the people of the United States, It's government and it's elected representatives have been snubbed by the Vatican (which despite it's size, still qualifies as a state, no matter what we would prefer and I would prefer it not be, myself, just as I would prefer that churches be taxed).

The issue will not arise should the Pope not visit the United States during the Obama Term(s) of office, so it can be dealt with as it comes up, if it comes up and I hope it doesn't. If he shows up at the UN for something, well that's fine, but as far as an official US visit it could be quietly suggested that he might not be too well received over this snub and perhaps travel elsewhere might be a better choice.

I would leave the post empty, quietly draw down the staff (whatever size it is) and ignore them overall.


We pretty much agree, except for the hypothetical visit of the Pope, but it ain't happened so who really cares.


:hi:

[No Elephants]

114. Exactly, People will be enraged by EITHER no official or a low level official. That is

precisely why I think the low level official lose lose. With a total snub, you get at least the approval of folks like me. With a low level official, you get no one's approval. Not seeing the advantage of the low level official.

[Sherman A1]

133. We agree on strategy but differ on tactics

I think the low level official is more like leaving the waitress (who was rude and totally screwed up your service) a 2 cent tip. I think it more of an insult, it acknowledges that we do indeed know you are here and we have sent the State Department's 4th floor receptionist to greet you, because everyone else is busy sorting their prized paper clip collection.

We just differ on opinions on this one.


:toast:

[TankLV]

80. Perfect response to this...

[northernlights]

53. why do we have an ambassador

to the freakin' Vatican anyway?

[Tansy_Gold]

58. I suspect it is more of a symbolic gesture toward

the millions of Catholics around the world who see the pope and the Vatican as their "leader." There was a time when certain countries, such as Spain and Italy, were not theocracies as such but did follow the dictates of the church on many so-called moral issues such as divorce, abortion, etc.

But in practice, Europe is generally LESS religious than the US and most Europeans, most Italians, most Catholics, would probably not be the least offended if Obama didn't appoint an ambassador at all. It's not as if that ambassador would actually be doing much in the way of diplomacy.

JMHO



TG

[northernlights]

88. well, then, let's appoint an ambassador to

Llahsa (wrong spelling I know), Tibet, because the Dalai Lama is the spiritual leader of more than a billion buddhists around the world.

And an ambassador to Mecca, the religious center for however many millions or billions of Muslims there are around the world.

And an ambassador to wherever the center of Hinduism is, as well.

All's fair...and all that.

[defendandprotect]

104. Reagan did it -- !!!

[Retired AF Dem]

56. Which news source is correct?

Catholic group slams possible Kennedy post

DEDHAM, Mass., April 10 (UPI) -- The Massachusetts Catholic Action League says the potential appointment of Caroline Kennedy as U.S. ambassador to the Vatican is unacceptable.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/04/10/Catholic-group-slams-possible-Kennedy-post/UPI-12861239379778/

Vatican denies it vetoed US choice for ambassador

VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican is denying that it has rejected several candidates for U.S. ambassador to the Holy See because of their support for abortion rights.

Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi said Friday that he checked the reports in the American and Italian media and there is no truth to them.

He also told the U.S. Catholic News Service that no names of proposed ambassadors had reached the Vatican from Washington
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iv48aLtfxJowoUPxg_wBWF_cBpbgD97FMEGG0

Sounds like typical news media screaw up to me. But what is a little Vatican smearing on Easter Sunday?

[Garbo 2004]

97. Both. MA group doesn't represent the Vatican. Vatican spokesman does. nt

[No Elephants]

119. Google. The Holy See has rejected ambassadors for being pro-choice, for being openly gay and for

being divorced, from various countries. This is not an implausible story.

[dipsydoodle]

60. Why does the Vatican need ambassadors anyway ?

:shrug:

[cpompilo]

61. How about Newt as Ambassador?

I hear he's "catholic" now

[angstlessk]

66. I am sure they will accept a three time married adulterer as long as they believe to allow

the woman to die at childbirth to save the woman. If you have a child at a Catholic hospital and the choice is between the child or the mother they will kill the mother everytime..supposedly because she has sinned and the baby is innocent (and I recon can grow up to become a priest or nun?)

[No Elephants]

67. Please see post #46. (Great minds think alike?)

:toast:

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

64. the vatican is irrelevant, so why bow to them on any issue

[LiberalFighter]

68. If this story was true then I could have three possible responses.

Don't appoint anyone.

Appoint a non-believer.

Appoint a know pedophile, a known boy abuser, a nazi sympathiser, or anyone we want out of country.

[IndianaGreen]

81. Mel Gibson's father would be ideal

He is a Holocaust denier, and the German Pope is an enabler of Holocaust deniers. I am sure they can have intimate conversations as to how the Holocaust could not have taken place because it takes one liter of petrol to burn a human body, as Gibson's father asserted a few years ago.

[No Elephants]

115. AS I understand it, Gibson and his Dad don't recognize the Pope, so it would be poetic justice.

[Solly Mack]

70. and the ambassadors to Mecca & Jerusalem? Snort

Fuck the Vatican. End the US ambassadorship to a religion.... bottom-line, that's all it is...homage to a particular religion by the US government. The Holy See, regardless of how Catholics think of the office, is nothing but the head of a church. Regardless of how other nations humor the long, long, long ago role of the Pope in the then world....it's been a new world for a long time now.

[checks-n-balances]

71. Remembering history, it's the irony or ironies

I don't have time to read the articles, and this may be mentioned in one of them already. But if the pope could remember that her own father came under fire during his presidential campaign for being Catholic...

As far as poor choices go, Ratzinger was one of the poorest of choices for the office he holds. His selection included some undertones of having been influenced by Bush himself. If there ever was such a thing as a Republican Pope, Ratzinger would be it. IMHO, he's less influenced by the stem cell issue than the Kennedy family being historically & presently Democratic.

[starroute]

73. Reagan conspired with the Vatican against the Soviet Union

As someone mentioned upthread, the first ambassador to the Vatican was appointed by Reagan. But that wasn't just a matter of politics -- it was part of Reagan's and Bill Casey's conspiratorial anti-Soviet scheming, and the ambassador was far more of an agent than a diplomatic representative.

This was originally a cover story in Time magazine in 1992, and it explains a lot:

http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/holyalliance1of2.html

February 24, 1992

The Holy Alliance
By Carl Bernstein

Only President Ronald Reagan and Pope John Paul II were present in the Vatican Library on Monday, June 7, 1982. It was the first time the two had met, and they talked for 50 minutes. ... But Reagan and the Pope spent only a few minutes reviewing events in the Middle East. Instead they remained focused on a subject much closer to their heart: Poland and the Soviet dominance of Eastern Europe. In that meeting, Reagan and the Pope agreed to undertake a clandestine campaign to hasten the dissolution of the communist empire. Declares Richard Allen, Reagan's first National Security Adviser: "This was one of the great secret alliances of all time." ...

The key Administration players were all devout Roman Catholics--CIA chief William Casey, Allen, Clark, Haig, Walters and William Wilson, Reagan's first ambassador to the Vatican. They regarded the U.S.-Vatican relationship as a holy alliance: the moral force of the Pope and the teachings of their church combined with their fierce anticommunism and their notion of American democracy. Yet the mission would have been impossible without the full support of Reagan, who believed fervently in both the benefits and the practical applications of Washington's relationship with the Vatican. One of his earliest goals as President, Reagan says, was to recognize the Vatican as a state "and make them an ally."

http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/holyalliance2of2.html

In response to concerns of the Vatican, the Reagan Administration agreed to alter its foreign-aid program to comply with the church's teachings on birth control.

According to William Wilson, the President's first ambassador to the Vatican, the State Department reluctantly agreed to an outright ban on the use of any U. S. aid funds by either countries or international health organizations for the promotion of birth control or abortion. As a result of this position, announced at the World Conference on Population in Mexico City in 1984, the U.S. withdrew funding from, among others, two of the world's largest family planning organizations: the International Planned Parenthood Federation and the United Nations Fund for Population Activities.

"American policy was changed as a result of the Vatican's not agreeing with our policy," Wilson explains. "American aid programs around the world did not meet the criteria the Vatican had for family planning. AID sent various people from State to Rome, and I'd accompany them to meet the president of the Pontifical Council for the Family, and in long discussions they finally got the message. But it was a struggle. They finally selected different programs and abandoned others as a result of this intervention."

[formercia]

74. Now the US can send all the Vatican delegation home

They were nothing but a bunch of troublemakers anyway. Sever relations with the Vatican.

[mulsh]

75. Caroline Kennedy born 11/27/57, isn't "53" for such a short article

you'd think the Telegraph would do a little fact checking. Makes me wonder how accurate this is.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

77. What the FUCK are we doing with an Ambassador to a FUCKING RELIGION to being with?!!!

I say - FUCK THE VATICAN!

PULL their "country" status and delete the ambassadorship altogether...

this stinks on SO many levels...

[M155Y_A1CH]

78. The Unforgiven

If you profess to be a Catholic you are saying that you will try to follow the Catholic tenets. One of which is the Pope is infallible and the voice of God on earth.

She has made it known that she disagrees with this tenet and is therefore a corrupt Catholic.

By disputing the voice of God on earth, she has betrayed her chosen religion and should resign as a Catholic.

As I understand it she has not repented her transgression nor performed acts of contrition nor confessed her sin.

She is "unforgiven".

Better she were a non-Catholic than an unfaithful one.

Maybe if she renounces her Catholicism and picks up a faith that allows abortion, she would be more suitable.


If she weren't a woman would help too, I'll bet.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cap]

100. this is not correct

most of Europe and Japan are pro-choice and yet Catholics over in those countries aren't hooting and hollering over abortion like we do here in the US.

We Catholics are a diverse lot. With a hearty 40% minority of Church going Catholics are prochoice.

We resent the Pope meddling in American politics. When JFK was elected he promised not to let the Pope interfere.

[Iowa]

106. Bullshit.

Let's deal with the short one first:

YOU SAID that one requirement of being Catholic is belief in the notion that "...the Pope is infallible and the voice of God on earth."

Wrong. The pope is considered (by the church) to be infallible only when speaking "ex cathedra". That has occurred only twice in history: 1) The Assumption, and 2) The Immaculate Conception. That's it. The Pope is not considered to be (to use your words) "the voice of God on earth" whose every utterance is the word of God.

Now the main point I want to make:

YOU SAID: "If you profess to be a Catholic you are saying that you will try to follow the Catholic tenets."

Bullshit. At its core, what it means to be Catholic has to do with the mental framework used to "interface" with one's creator. For the vast majority of Catholics, that framework was instilled via indoctrination as children by well-meaning people who were also indoctrinated as kids. There was no personal choice involved and any profession of faith is almost always coerced in one way or another. And the strategies employed are highly manipulative and extremely effective because:

1) They are directed toward very young children.
2) It is based primarily on the fear of an eternity of torture and fire.
3) Familial ties and cultural identifications are deeply interwoven into the process of instilling "faith".

Extricating oneself from Catholicism is a formidable task that requires considerable psychological sophistication, intelligence, knowledge, and just having the damn TIME to think it through. Furthermore, there are usually very heavy costs associated with breaking away, often having to do with separation in varying degrees from one's family and culture. It's not surprising that few ever get it done. So when you blithely throw out this standard church line: "By disputing the voice of God on earth, she has betrayed her chosen religion and should resign as a Catholic"... well-screw-you. Anyone who is (or was) a Catholic, and who has a scintilla of compassion and intelligence is going to be reluctant to browbeat those who haven't been able to make a clean break. And if there are Catholics who are able to separate themselves from some of the most egregious and socially damaging bullshit, yet still feel the need to call themselves Catholic, well power to them. If they claim to be Catholic, they're Catholic. And if they feel the need to reject some of the bullshit, yet still consider themselves Catholic, they're entitled. Their dues have been paid. There's a hell of a lot more to it than buying into a few hot-button issues, and it is highly misleading to imply that leaving one's religion is like dropping a gym membership.

All that said, I'm no Caroline Kennedy fan, and I could care less about this piddling Ambassadorship. But the older I get (and I'm quite a bit older than Caroline Kennedy) the less tolerance I have for rigid, shallow-thinking blowhards with simplistic viewpoints who think they have all the answers.

[JerseygirlCT]

127. Thanks - should have read yours first! nt

[No Elephants]

116. Why does she need forgiveness? Has SHE had an abortion?

[JerseygirlCT]

126. That's a pretty common misunderstanding, actually

The pope is only infallible on matters of Catholic dogma - when he is speaking "ex cathedra" is the term, I believe. Popes in modern history have only very, very rarely done this.

In all else, actually, the RCC holds a belief in the "primacy of conscience" - though you'd not know it from the politicizing right wing priests and especially bishops have been doing of late.

Kennedy is not an unfaithful Catholic because her conscience dictates that she understand the full range of issues and in particular that there is more than one way to look at the issue of abortion, and more than a fetus to consider.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

148. Great, then. Obama should nominate an out-of-the-closet atheist.

Take notice of the fact that I had to qualify "atheist" with "out of the closet" so my point would be clear. Why do you think that was needed?

[The Backlash Cometh]

82. What the hell!

Now I'm glad I didn't go to church on Easter Sunday. But my husband did and he said the church, which had always been standing room only, was plenty open. Here that poopy? You're going into another back slide.

[AlbertCat]

84. Perhaps a letter stating she will not have or perform abortions while Ambassadress...

[rcrush]

85. Why is there an ambassador to the Vatican?

I dont get it. Pagan cultists create a fake religion based loosely on Christianity and they create their own little pretend country in Rome and somehow they have all this political influence. And the new Pope just happends to be an ex Nazi. Theres lot of weird occult art in the vatican.

[Odin2005]

86. Just don't send any ambassadors to that fake state.

[Doctor_J]

89. Is the US the only country where the Vatican interferes with our national politics?

Most countries on earth favor safe, available rare abortions. Does the pope terrorize them too? Or are we special because we have an insane right-wing faction that owns the airwaves?

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

90. Maybe we are over reacting here?

Since the thought was she'd be Ambassador to the Vatican, it makes sense the Vatican woudn't want her given the abortion thing.
I think the Church is way out of touch with the 21st century world, was raised Catholic and ion fact work for a Catholic social agency.
I disagree with many of the policies of the Church but am not surprised they balked at this.
Let's say the Vatican didn't like tomatoes, thought they were an abomination but someone was appointed Ambassador that owned a tomatoe plantation. Whould that seem ok then for the Vatican to raise a question?
:shrug:

[No Elephants]

117. To the contrary, it makes no sense whatever. Caroline Kennedy does not

perform abortions, nor has she had one. The highest court of this land has held that abortion, under certain circumstances, is the right of all women in this country, per the Constitution of the United States, the highest law of this land. That does not REQUIRE anyone to have an abortion.

This just proves how ludicrous it is for a nation whose Constitution requires separation of Church and State to have an ambassador to the Holy See.

Tomatoes have nothing to do with religion and therefore your analogy has nothing to do with any of the points on this thread.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

121. Well!

I guess you showed me...........

[GinaMaria]

92. I'm unclear about the appointment process for Ambassadors

Can a state/nation/government block a nominee? Just wondering how this process works. Honestly, I've never really thought about it until this OP. Does anyone know? I understand it is a diplomatic position as well as a privilege for big supporters. Being a diplomatic position, I could see that we would want someone there who the state/nation/government will work with, but this seems a bit much. We have non-muslim ambassadors in Muslim countries don't we? Can people be blocked for philosophical reasons?

[primavera]

94. I have the same question

I mean, my understanding is that an ambassador is supposed to be the representative of the sending state, not the receiving state, so what say does the receiving state have in instructing the sending state on whom they may or may not appoint to serve as that representative?

[hedgehog]

95. I spent at least 10 hours this week practicing for and singing in the choir

for the Easter Tridium. I say, if the Vatican won't accept who we appoint, let the seat go empty!

[Garbo 2004]

98. Again, Vatican spokesman has denied these reports. See article:

Vatican denies it vetoed US choice for ambassador
2 days ago

VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican is denying that it has rejected several candidates for U.S. ambassador to the Holy See because of their support for abortion rights.

Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi said Friday that he checked the reports in the American and Italian media and there is no truth to them.

He also told the U.S. Catholic News Service that no names of proposed ambassadors had reached the Vatican from Washington.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iv48aLtfxJowoUPxg_wBWF_cBpbgD97FMEGG0

[cap]

101. They wouldn't dare acknowledge them ...

I believe a trial balloon was floated and the Vatican shot it down.

[JayMusgrove]

99. Caroline Kennedy blocks the Vatican from being a legitimate

nation, or worthy of having a US Ambassador.

Breaking news.

PLEASE! Some men are so "holier than thou" and so "superior" to women, let's make sure they have no voice for their religious mythical cult any longer in our world. I'm just sick and tired of religion exerting political power ever since the original Easter Sunday.

[KamaAina]

102. Ray Flynn cut his political teeth throwing bricks at school buses in Southie

how dare they bring black kids in to go to school?! :sarcasm:

Pity he and Pope Rat never got to make beautiful music together. :sarcasm:

[medeak]

108. US doesn't reject ambassadors do we? n/t

[and-justice-for-all]

109. She is pro-choice...

no one actually supports abortion. I am pro-choice because I can not nor will I ever understand all the situations facing a women who needs to make the decision, its none of my business or anyone else's. I support the right for a women to make that choice.

The Vatican is not Pro-life either, just look at their position on condemns and other preventive measures against VDs; has anyone heard their position on those occupations of the middle east or Israels treatment of the Palestinians??! NOPE.

The Vatican can fuck off and their opinion on anything is irrelevant.

[Joe Bacon]

110. No ambassador to the Vatican. PERIOD!

If they refuse Caroline then terminate all diplomatic relations with Pope Eggs Benedict!

[DemBones DemBones]

111. The Vatican State has a right to refuse

to accept an ambassador who favors abortion just as the State of Israel has a right to refuse to accept an ambassador who favors the Palestinians against the Israelis. Indiana Green should understand that.

[No Elephants]

118. Very bad analogy. A Palestinian state would require Israel to give up land that Israel view as its

own. Nothing comparable to that in the Vatican's accepting a Catholic (whom the Vatican has not eve excommunicated, fwiw) as the ambassador from the United States.

BTW, when did Israel refuse that ambassador? Or are just assuming/claiming that Israel would do that without any basis for that assumption.

[DemBones DemBones]

136. Never did I mention a Palestinian state. nt

[JerseygirlCT]

128. She doesn't "favor abortion" - in fact, I think you'd be hard-pressed to

find many people who "favor abortion".

She favors allowing each woman to make that very important decision for herself. BIG difference. Huge difference. And I dare say, a position held by many, many American Catholics - perhaps the majority.

[DemBones DemBones]

135. Caroline Kennedy favors legal abortion on demand,

that's what "allowing each woman to make that very important decision for herself" is.

The Catholic Church teaches that a pregnant woman may receive needed medical care, including needed care sure to kill the baby, such as removal of a cancerous uterus, but that a direct abortion is never permitted.

You've got Caroline Kennedy saying direct abortion is OK if the woman decides it is and the Church saying it is never OK; the two positions are at odds with one another.

[JerseygirlCT]

137. That's not favoring abortion - that's favoring choice

and you're allowing yourself to fall into the language of the rabid right with that.

Being in favor of allowing a woman to make that decision herself, and being in favor of abortion are two different things.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

140. You're talking to a person who thinks some one-celled beings have souls.

Been there, done that.

[JerseygirlCT]

144. The thing is

I personally wouldn't chose an abortion, either.

But I strongly believe that is MY decision to make, and never mine or anyone else's to make for another woman.

[PeaceNikki]

142. WTF do you mean "on demand"?

Aren't ALL abortions "on demand", seriously, what the HELL do you mean by that?

That "on-demand" shit is rhetoric.

[JerseygirlCT]

145. Maybe you can now schedule them years ahead of time instead?

:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

147. But wait a second, everything changed now! Link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5460019

[asthmaticeog]

141. For that analogy to work, Kennedy would have to favor the destruction of the Vatican. nt

.

[Joanne98]

122. Opus Dei has taken over the church.

Testimonies and Other Writings

The following is the work of the individual author and does not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of the Opus Dei Awareness Network, Inc.

How Opus Dei is Cult-Like
by Sharon Clasen, Former numerary

Opus Dei is often described in the media as “cult-like.” Opus Dei numerary Meg Kates' statement, “Members are free to come, free to go, free to participate, free not to, free to walk right out the door, free to stay” <1> is deceptive. The true personal freedom of numerary members, who make up 25-30% of all members, is hindered by the following controls that are put into place by Opus Dei. The following table illustrates how Opus Dei’s methods resemble those used by cults. It uses Steve Hassan’s BITE model (Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotional) of mind control described in Releasing the Bonds, Empowering People to Think for Themselves <2> as the basis for comparison. (For more details about Hassan's model, see the excerpt from his book.)

The examples cited in the right-hand column are based on the personal experiences of Sharon Clasen, who was a supernumerary for three years and a numerary for two years. She experienced the following while living at Brimfield, the Center of Studies for numerary women in the United States. (All numeraries typically live in the Center of Studies for two years for intense study of the "spirit of Opus Dei." There are separate Centers of Studies for numerary men.) Also included are some writings of the Founder of Opus Dei (taken from The Way by Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer) as well as the testimonies from other former members.



I. Behavior Control

http://www.odan.org/tw_how_opus_dei_is_cult_like.htm

[AngryOldDem]

123. Why does the Vatican even need an ambassador anymore?

Really -- I think it's a legitimate question. It's proven itself to be increasingly irrelevant as a force on the world stage, in politics or anything else. To be brutally honest, it's become a joke. I'd rather see all this time and trouble going to reestablish relations with Havana. A generally much more productive pursuit in the long run, IMHO.

[ButterflyBlood]

134. Agreed fuck the Vatican

Obama should either leave the position vacant or appoint an extreme anti-Catholic like Hagee or Bob Jones.

[Haole Girl]

129. Guess we shouldn't be surprised

:eyes:

[applegrove]

131. I hope Obama refuses to fill the job for the length of his 8 years in office.

[ButterflyBlood]

132. Obama should go ahead and appoint John Hagee

Sure Hagee is a huge fucking asshole, but he'd still be the perfect protest choice. Plus it gets him out of the country.

[LynneSin]

143. But if she diddled little boys they'd approve of that

:grr:

Who are these assholes and if I am correct, they have no say in who Obama picks - they aren't even from our country

[Butch350]

146. Has the Vatican worked out that child molestation thing yet?

[ClarkUSA]

149. This has been proven false. Rightwing rag Telegraph got this story from its American cousin Newsmax.

Link to proof: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8335833&mesg_id=8336475

[muriel_volestrangler]

150. Except that The Guardian and the BBC are now running it

It comes from Il Giornale; Newsmax may have written about it at some time, but they're not relying on that:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7998688.stm

The Vatican also rejected another potential nominee, Douglas Kmiec, a professor of constitutional law at Pepperdine University and former head of the office of legal counsel for Presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr. Kmiec, a Republican who endorsed Obama during the last election campaign, has said that Catholics who support the right to abortion need not follow the church's admonition to vote for an anti-abortion presidential candidate.

The Vatican is maintaining the official line that there have been no formal rejections of Obama's ambassadorial nominees because none has been officially put forward.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/14/vatican-vetoes-obama-nominees-abortion

Which means that they've told them unofficially that Kennedy and Kmiec aren't acceptable. You'll note that Kmiec isn't named in the Newsmax article.

[ClarkUSA]

151. John Thavis at Catholic News Service actually called over to the Vatican to ask about the rumors.

This is not the first time MSM has got the story wrong. At the link I provided, the Vatican clearly denies the veracity of the story:

Vatican sources said not only was the report inaccurate, but that its premise was faulty. The Vatican has not been in the habit of vetting the personal beliefs or ideas of candidates before accepting them as ambassadors, they said.

There have been occasions in the last two years when the Vatican has objected to ambassadorial candidates -- from Argentina, in the case of a divorced Catholic with a live-in partner, and from France, where the candidate was an openly gay Catholic in a union with another man.

"For Catholic ambassadors, there is the question of their matrimonial situation. But outside of that, I don't think there are other criteria," said one Vatican source.