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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:44 AM
Original message
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 11:48 AM by kpete
Source: Think Progress

Gitmo Detainees Genitals Were Sliced With A Scalpel, Waterboarding Far Down The List Of Things They Did

Last week, two British High Court judges ruled against releasing documents describing the treatment of Binyam Mohamed, a British resident who is currently being held at Guantanamo Bay. The judges said the Bush administration had threatened to withhold intelligence cooperation with Britain if the information were made public.

But The Daily Telegraph reported over the weekend that the documents actually contained details of how British intelligence officers supplied information to (Mohameds) captors and contributed questions while he was brutally tortured. In fact, it was British officials, not the Americans, who pressured Foreign Secretary David Miliband to do nothing that would leave serving MI6 officers open to prosecution. According to the Telegraphs sources, the documents describe particularly gruesome interrogation tactics:

The 25 lines edited out of the court papers contained details of how Mr Mohameds genitals were sliced with a scalpel and other torture methods so extreme that waterboarding, the controversial technique of simulated drowning, is very far down the list of things they did, the official said.

Another source familiar with the case said: British intelligence officers knew about the torture and didnt do anything about it.



Read more: http://thinkprogress.org/2009/02/09/mohamed-torture-uk-... /
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rainy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. There was rape and murder as well, if we will remember the words
of Rumsfield after seeing the pictures and trying to keep them from the public. That info seems to have fallen down the memory hole.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Rape of males, females and children, as I recall it --
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 12:00 PM by Solly Mack
Binyam Mohamed always maintained his penis was sliced.

So that was known, though people did tend to focus on just the water-boarding.

What is new, (of sorts - because some people, myself included, have always said Miliband was a liar) is the level of complicity in covering up the actions of MI6 officers by Miliband.

It has also been reported before (and many times) that: "British intelligence officers supplied information to (Mohameds) captors and contributed questions while he was brutally tortured.
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Bonescrat Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
101. Yes I remember this being reported before...
I'm sure it was on either Air America or Nova M. No idea when... The last 8 years all run together.

I remember the story though. Hard to forget..
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #101
116. The Guardian has done a good job covering it as well
and the ACLU, of course.

Binyam Mohamed


"During one incident, Mohamed was cut 20 to 30 times on his genitals. On another occasion, a hot stinging liquid was poured into open wounds on his penis as he was being cut. He was frequently threatened with rape, electrocution and death. He was forced to listen to loud music day and night, placed in a room with open sewage for a month at a time and drugged repeatedly.

Under this torture, Mohamed was interrogated about Al Qaeda and suspected Al Qaeda members. He was told that the U.S. wanted him to testify against individuals then in U.S. custody, including Jose Padilla, Khalid Sheik Mohamed, Abu Zubaydah and Ibn Shiekh Al Libi. Mohamed was told to repeat what he was told: that he was a top Al Qaeda official; that he had met with Osama Bin Laden and 25 other Al Qaeda leaders on multiple occasions; and that he had told Bin Laden about places that should be attacked"
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #116
136. Seems to suggest that THEY desperately needed confessions cause they had no evidence!!!
Further and happily, the British public seems to be taking torture very seriously!!!

And trying to hold their government responsible ---
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #2
115. .
Edited on Tue Feb-10-09 01:07 AM by Solly Mack
.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. So the whole waterboarding discussion
was just a (very) limited hangout and a diversion from disclosure of much worse techniques..?

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. yes -
reports of rape, including rape of children while their mothers watched, have been made public, they have just been overlooked or ignored or discounted. I would venture to guess that those electrical wires attached to the detainee at Abu G were not just props.

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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. So much "nicer" to talk about than genital slicing, or rape, or murder.
I mean, we DO have to be proper in our public discussions of torture, don't we -- don't want to upset the children, and all. ;-)
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. Of course... almost... here is what that was about...
The discussion was not a diversion, it was the main course.

In the movie "The Rose" medieval monks hold an Ecumenical conference
to debate whether Christ "owned the clothes he wore". It is the framing
of a question who's enormous import was whether the Church itself
should own property.

We confer to decide whether water-boarding is torture. The reason the
debate was so vicious and vigorous is because the stakes were high .
For all engaged in it knew, that if water-boarding was torture and illegal
(and it is), then all the rest was illegal.

The debate was actually a trial, to present that those who had engaged in
such things should be reviled by humanity.

Thank you for your wonderful comment/question.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
48. Well said. Excellent illustration. n/t
:dem:

-Laelth
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Titonwan Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
79. Excellent analogy.
But I wished you hadn't mentioned the name of the movie cause now I'm getting a tingling, thinking about that peasant girl!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. Yes.
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TheEuclideanOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
70. Well, if there was such a denial of Waterboarding yet an admission of
"enhanced interrogation techniques" then something was happening over there, and we know they were not having tea parties.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
4. The world cries out for a Nuremberg...
But there is no Nuremberg. There was no impeachment. There is no Nuremberg. We are a shameful nation. With yet another shameful president. And as always a shameful Congress.

We are a falling empire. Rome has burned and there is nothing left at this point but ashes.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. If we don't somehow manage to bring the officials responsible to justice . . .
we are doomed to the same suffering.



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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
50. Those who did the slicing were Moroccan agents
Good luck getting them in front of the Hague.

American agents knew, and did nothing but sit back and watch.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #50
62. The Moroccans did it!!!
Why were Moroccan agents at Guantanamo? Were they hired so that if someone found out what was going on Bush could just say "The Moroccans did it?" More than likely they were Moroccan agents who worked for the CIA. Who cares if they were Moroccan or Canadian? This was OUR detention center. We are the ones to be held accountable. And we will be. With or without a Nuremberg. The world hates us. This is yet another reason why.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #50
84. Link please, facts please. nt
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #84
105. You want facts? Read on...
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #105
109. And this supports your argument how? The real payoff to this article
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 10:24 PM by ooglymoogly
is the quote at the end; "The CIA worked on people, including me, day and night. Plenty lost their minds." I mean really; Does it matter where the CIA performed its criminally insane and sexually sadistic crimes to extract the answers they needed to hear to truth proof their lie and does it exonerate them that they performed these crimes in Morocco; A subservient country who depends on American and British tourism for its survival....on top of that, I say this as a former expatriot who lived in Morocco and much of north Africa and the middle east for many years.
Except for the desert Tuareg and other desert tribes, for the most part, separated by the Moroccan Atlas. The Moroccans are a gentle and welcoming people.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #105
114. Lol. WTF?
Edited on Tue Feb-10-09 12:48 AM by ronnie624
From your link:

He describes the "Dark Prison" (Guantanamo Bay) as a dungeon with loud rap and heavy metal music blasting 24 hours a day.

He wrote: "They hung me up for two days. My legs had swollen. My wrists and hands had gone numb. Then they changed the sounds to horrible ghost laughter and Halloween sounds. The CIA worked on people, including me, day and night. Plenty lost their minds."



This was done by our government, paid for by our tax dollars. Own it.
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underseasurveyor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #50
134. Still doesn't absolve American agents if they knew
and did nothing to stop it. Just as culpable if not more-so.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. we are a nation without laws, this has got to change.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #34
135. Yes . . . !! And if the CIA can order torture on demand . . .
they can do that to any American citizen ---

and that's long been clear.

The CIA was founded with NAZIS from Project Paperclip, brought in by

Allen Dulles -- more than 60,000 -- fed into CIA, FBI and NASA.

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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #135
137. For years people here and elsewhere pooh-pooed any who would say such
How do you all feel now when we say "We told you so" :shrug:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. Unfortunately, I always understood this to be true . . .
Edited on Wed Feb-11-09 02:23 PM by defendandprotect
that is that we were shipping prisoners elsewhere to be tortured . . .


However, I didn't know about the genital cutting/scalpels until the info was posted

at DU based on the female journalist's relating these details!

As a matter of fact, while I thought I was fairly familiar with the large catalog of

Christian Crusade tortures, I don't recall reading about genital cutting, but don't

doubt the truth of it. The Crusades set new precedents for violence, brutality, torture --

immorality.


Also, I was just coming in to amend my post because it is close to 60,000

that I'm aware of who were brought into Amerca . . . that includes FAMILY members,

however -- wives, children.

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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
73. It's not over yet.
Write the White House. Write to your congresscritter, and your Senators. Hold their feet to the fire. Justice can be done; we can see to it.
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. so,
can someone explain karma to me again?
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
46. Karma is the idea (based in wishful thinking) that eventually everyone gets what they deserve
Like heaven and hell, it's just there to distract and derail us from going forth and giving people what they deserve.
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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #46
78. i like your thinking. n/t
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demgurl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
102. Karma is more common sense and logical than God or heaven.
I am Buddhist and whether you actually believe in the abstract idea of karma, your common sense can tell you that it can work in other ways than just the mystical.

If you are nice to all of those around you then people will want to be nice to you. When someone does something to you, others will want to help you. You create a more positive environment by being positive and so people act positively toward you because of your good deeds....."What you reap, so will you sow." "What goes around comes around".

If you are mean and nasty you will create enemies. People will be negative toward you and will not have any sympathy when you may need something. This is common sense as what I said above about being negative.

Even if you do not believe in the religious point of view of karma, it does make quite a bit of sense the the results, as my quotes show above, are shared in common places as well as other religions.

Is everyone always going to be kind to you if you are trying to be kind most of the time? Of course not but if you are nasty back to them then you are creating a negative environment where others do not want to be around you or help you. Rather than getting revenge and ruining our own karma, we must act in loving kindness and let others handle their own negativity they have spread. We must trust that they will get theirs in the end.

I know you were asking this question more tongue in cheek than anything else but I really felt a need to explain how much common sense really is in the philosophy called Buddhism.
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dmr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #102
118. The old adage: "What goes around, comes around"
But karma, like an old common sense adage, or even what one may find in the Proverbs - they do not replace trials or prosecutions.

Hiding our barbaric hand only gives our enemies another reason to mistrust us.

My thoughts always go to our own men and women serving outside our country. I don't want terrible things to happen to them. But we have lost our moral standings by not owning up or being accountable. We've given our enemies fuel to abuse our own; and get away with it. That frightens and angers me.

Knowing what I have learned, which I understand pales to the realities, makes my heart, and my head ache profoundly.

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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. How many people had their genitals sliced open while Pelosi had Impeachment off the table? n/t
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. ...and re-funded both wars for two years --- !!!!
We haven't yet managed to close the School of the Americas ---

or stopped the torture of force-feeding going on at Guantanamo right now!!!

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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Good question...
How many more were raped while she was keeping it off the table.

-Hoot
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crickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
139. Excellent question.
How many people had their genitals sliced open while Pelosi had Impeachment off the table?

I'd love to hear the answer. In court.

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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is not a surprise, remember that when Yoo testified, he didn't
even answer the question Conyers asked him, Could the President order a suspect buried alive? He couldn't even say no, there was a good reason for that.
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
8. they cant escape this...impossible...nt
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. Since gential mutilation would leave evidence in the form of scars,
I really hope this guy's lawyer has pictures and is watching out that his client doesn't mysteriously "disappear."
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. remember, the prosecutor resigned over this
he was on Rachel Maddow.

He said he was lockstep in with everyone on Gitmo etc, but when he learned
the facts about this prisoner and others, he couldn't do prosecute these men.
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. drip, drip, drip.... I wish it wasn't taking so long for the flood to start.
I TRULY hope Obama is merely laying low on prosecutions. I'd like to think he's only back-burnered it until he gets resolution on the stimulus and has rebuilt his "political capital" as the Pretzeldent-War Criminal liked to call it.

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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #49
112. I think we are getting bullshited here
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. We had best soon find a way to hold these officials accountable . . .
because they are seemingly still in control --- or very nearly with those willing

to cover up for them and continue to hide their filthy work still seated in government!

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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Obama Wants To "Move On"
Lovely, just lovely.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I think we can have a DOJ, Criminal Courts and "move on" . . .
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 12:48 PM by defendandprotect
all at the same time -- !!

Move on to justice . . .

If we're going to do JUSTICE in society by means of a people's government, then

we have to do justice across the board -- and that means holding all criminals

responsible for their crimes.


It's a false premise to suggest that we can either "Move On" OR have justice!!!

We can have both --- "we can do it!"

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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. Exactly (nt)
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
87. Part of "Moving On" would be to restore the rule of law..
If these war criminals are not held accountable for their hideous crimes, then...there is no rule of law.

Why are they immune? Why should they be protected? :wtf:
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
99. I suppose he can't be the ringleader who brings the thugs to justice...
hopefully behind the scenes he is supporting OTHERS who are working on it - HOPEFULLY !
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. Kind of a misleading article.
I mean, this stuff is horrible no matter where it happened, but the article makes it seem as if this happened to Mohamed while he was at Guantanamo under the guard of Americans, as opposed to while he was being held by Morocco's government. I'm sure the CIA was well aware of what was going on there, but I still think the Think Progress article does a real disservice by not stating explicitly where and when the torture took place.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. When the US/CIA ships people to other nations to be TORTURED . . .
then the label that torture wears is "Made in the USA" . . .

We are wholly responsible for it -- and, as a matter of fact, we should also

NOT return any prisoner to any country which would torture them.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
56. I agree. But that's not the point I was making.
The point is that the article in question obfuscates the fact that Americans did not directly commit the acts of torture described. I agree that, because of our nation's rendition program, this nation's leaders at the time of the rendition are to blame. I'm just nitpicking over the article's wording.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #56
108. OK . . .
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
16. The torturers need to be arrested immediately.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. K&R
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
21. But of course, we don't torture ...
Hopefully not anymore, anyway.

Bake
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. Prosecute the chain of command, Addington, Yoo, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Myers, Sanchez, Miller et al
and, last but not least, G.W. Bush.
K&R.
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ooglymoogly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
25. This is the maddest and sickeast kind of saddism pure and simple;
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 01:22 PM by ooglymoogly
It had nothing to do with intelligence; Though it did have a lot to do with false intelligence. Gaining "intelligence" was just a pretense. We have allowed the evilest scum of the earth to gain power over helpless people thrown carelessly into the frenzied throes of medevil torture dungeons; Our so called intelligence agencies. As for those few guilty; A civilized nation would have put them in the care of people who truly understand the techniques of extracting intelligence without the use of torture, which they all know to be useless; But then to these criminals the truth is deadly, and besides, what is the fun in that? Except for producing answers they desperately want to hear to cover up vast conspiracies and to further their endless propaganda and truth proofing their lies. So a big zig heil to our fine intelligence agencies who love their work in a truly unholy way and the evil folks pulling their strings; Watching these snuff shows like Goering did, who often participated in the "fun". These folks belong in hell.
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
57. I've been ranting about this for years...Why is there so much sexual i.e. sadistic
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 03:26 PM by truth2power
content in these reports of treatment of detainees? I think it's because Bush's inner circle contained an extraordinary number of individuals with paraphilias of just about every sort. I think if Americans knew the full extent of what was REALLY going on, they would be sickened beyond belief. And this is just my gut feeling. Don't know why I feel this way. Rummy is the worst of the worst.

What we do know about acts perpetrated on non-consenting individuals are bad enough:

Forcing naked detainees to wear women't panties (a common fetish object) on their heads. This, of course, was supposed to humiliate them into giving up all their secrets. Uh...sure! And what could those who watched this event have been doing? Hmm?

Sodomizing children while their mothers were forced to watch. (Pedophilia, voyeurism, sadism.)

Naked pyramids. ( voyeurism)

Lyndie England dragging a (naked) detainee around by a leash. (S&M, bondage,voyeurism)

**Umm..why are these guys always naked? But, moving on..

Forcing detainees to masturbate themselves or one another.

And who knows what happened to those poor mangled corpses before they were finally "snuffed"?

And all in the interest of getting them to spill their guts about terror plans. I call bullsh*t!


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Ysabela Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
26. Waterboarding is the "scapegoat"
Democrats and Republicans in Congress are all too willing to make waterboarding the sole focus of the torture debate, because it's the one torture technique that doesn't make people utterly cringe when hearing about it being done.

But you start talking about slicing nutsacks, and every man everywhere cringes and is horrified with disbelief. Hearing about testicles being crushed, sliced, beaten, etc would send an uproar through America and the Congresspeople do not want that, because they are complicit war criminals and don't want the wrath of the American public on them. That's why they are all to happy to make waterboarding the "scapegoat", the public face of torture. So that no one ever questions the torture, and prosecutes those that allowed it.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. People should cringe...
Because I'm sure that the actual waterboarding resembles what was done in Algerian dungeons far more than the "press-safe" version that's well known.

In Algeria, they stuff a rag soaked on bleach in your mouth and pour water down your throat until your stomach is full. Then they beat you until you vomit it all back up. or until you drown. Or until your stomach ruptures.

Water torture is. in many ways, some of the worst torture that there is. It's also very "popular" since it doesn't leave burns, bruises, or bloody wounds.
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Ysabela Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
59. Absolutely
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 03:26 PM by Ysabela
It is one of the worst, and yet since it leaves no outward physical signs as you pointed out, it generally doesn't provoke as strong a reaction as other forms of torture may.

In a way, waterboarding is the most "PR friendly" form of torture, the one form they could do a completely 'watered down' demonstration of on television to essentially dissuade the anti-torture campaigns by saying "Look it's not so bad!".

What if they did a demonstration of taking a scalpel to a man's scrotum on CNN? Do you think for one second the public wouldn't be immediately outraged and flooding CNN and Congress with angry rants about them showing torture on TV and allowing torture to happen in our name? Waterboarding was deliberately and carefully chosen to be the public "face" of torture in Congress' PR attempt to never be prosecuted.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
28. I hope Rachel Maddow gets ahold of this story
I think *waterboarding* was simply a blind cover for much worse stuff going on there. This seems more about sexual perversion that it is about *extracting information*.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
30. Hell, if they were going to slice my weeny, I would tell them anything they wanted to hear!!
reason #1034905, why torture doesn't work.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
32. Think about the next US soldier that gets taken hostage. nt
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
37.  thereismore
thereismore

I would bet everything I own and will own the next 20 year that the american public will do everything possible to "SAVE" the poor soldier by prayer og by every other means possible. Even military intervention.. The US have been doing that for decades and Will do it again..

But after this i more known to the public in the world, the cry from US to spear the poor soldier would possible get into deaf ears.. Because The United States of America have in many cases show the road ahead.. That torture is right, and justifiable, if just the right one are doing it.. Torture that the US contempt by the truck load in the 1970s, and the 1980s when the communist regimes of Eastern Europe, and Soviet union was doing some of the things - I doubt after Stalin that the genitals was cut open by KGB anymore,or by the other secret police in the eastern part of Europe. But when US are doing, nobody sees to care to much about it. And the media who once was instrumental to trow out an slimy criminal President are just "so" willing to just do as their owner want them to do. And that is NOT TELLING THE TRUTH, BY ANY MEANS. If the truth about Gitmo, and the other concentration camps was ever fully exposed to american, head will rolls, and many who today is been seen as heroes, would end in a rather cold, and dark prison cell for the rest of their life.. Or maybe even shot my firing squad - if the US are doing that anymore..

The next time a US soldier are put into a prison cell, by a foreign nation, he should be very, very lucky if the the regime in questioning in fact is respecting the Geneva conventions at all... If not... Anyway many american will in the next couple of decades be harmed, maimed and killed by your enemies, because of the 8 year with mr Bush, who made the impossible, possible.. The US was opening a tin can of worms they do not want to open, when they allowed torture to be the norm... More than 100 year of progressive legislative reform, have now almost been destroyed.. More than 100 year when civilian and soldiers have been treated according to what the powers to be wanted, because they do not wanted soldiers, and civilians behind enemy lines to be killed unnecessary have now been vanished, and now we are back to pre 1870, when the first laws was enacted by the european powers at the time...

You have been splendid mr Bush, you have broke down the barrier, that not even Hitler managed to broke down, and he had far respect for the geneva conventions, than the Allied had, even at the end of the war.... You mr Bush, are no less than the next Hitler, but thankfully you had just 8 year, and in many cases you managed to do it too....

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language.
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
33.  kpete
kpete

Sooner og later, the american public wil know about this, and I am dam sure that the american public would not be that happy about what have become of the US... Just to think about someone who willingly slice the Geniales is make me sick, and my genitales to hurt as they have been treated the same way.. I know by experience that a mans genitales is the most painfull area on the body (not knife, but soccer from maybe 5 meter right on the nuts... )

The criminal behavour of the former administration is something YOU in the US should do far more to take to the cort, to get them into prison..

And if they who made this posible, by making this LAW in the land ever are traveling abroad, like to Europe, then I hope our international Criminal Court are there to meet them on landing, to put them where they belong, behind bar in the Nederlands.. And then to the cort.. And we in our silized part of the world, would rather spend millions to keep them behind bars, then to hang them, as the americans, british and the russians was doing after ww2...

This is shamefull, and I am afraid that mutch more wil come out as the terror from the former regime is fading away, and peopole want to save their own ass...

But, if YOU do not want to get the shit out in the air, we on the other side of the atlantic will, and do the you YOU should have been doing..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language
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Moonwalk Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. The American Public, sadly, thinks one of two ways--
(1) That torturing evil bad guys is fine. Even "bad assed." It makes us tough and cool superheroes. Look at the movies coming out of the U.S. Look at the show 24! Characters in such movies who say, "No, no, you can't hurt our captive, it's against the law--" are portrayed as spineless cowards. Time is running out! The person who follows the law can't save us. Only the rebel who bravely "breaks the rules" can get things done. So the hero locks the door on the guy who says, "You can't hurt him, it's against the law!" and the Hero tortures the captive, who quickly crumbles and tells the hero everything. Proving to the American Public that torture is very effective, and a time saver. Armed with this information, the hero saves all those innocent, American lives that would have been lost if our Hero had wasted time following the rules.

(2) Those that don't think #1 will likely think: "I'm tired of all this, and I want us to move on." In other words, they will want to sweep it under the rug. Because looking at it is hard. It means THEY have to take responsibility for it as well, as they elected these officials and didn't insist that it stop. It means, as well, that American was the bad guy. Not the good guy. It's hard to give up your idealism, your fantasy of the side you think you're on. To realize how stupid and blind you were while waving that flag. Easier to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never happened.

The American Public SHOULD be outraged that we used torture, period. It shouldn't take such a story for us to finally be upset about it. Still, I would love to believe that you are right; that hearing about this will finally generate real public outrage. But I think most of America sincerely believes the popular propaganda that it's okay to torture bad guys, either to get information or because they're bad. And if they believe some innocent was tortured in such a way, I think they'd rather ignore it than believe it and have to face the truth about themselves and their country.

:(
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
93. Moonwalk
Moonwalk

As I se it, on the outside, the american public can't care less, if anyone else is tortured, and murdered by the government that is in US. Even children and woman. Specially if the government claim that the "criminal" have some evidence that is crucial to get the real evil be stopped.. Even that seasoned FBI and intel can tell you, that you are coming far better with treating the person in custody with decency, and treat them according to what you claim to have as an moral standard. USA have in that department ruined more than 100 year with progress with all this bullshit about "torture light" as many claim it to be.. To torture a person, is wrong regardless if the Soviet did it, or you are doing it today.
Doesn't se 24 anymore, have lost my appetite on this type of "we want everyone to support our case with torture even if it means innocent killed" attitude that the US have today.. The type of show is just making more enemies of US than good it. And you need all your friends you can get this days I am afraid... On the other hand, the american public have been brainwashed with this type of propaganda since I was born, and I am 32 year old.. Off course most american today believe in whatever coming out of this type of propaganda, even if it wrong.. the Show 24 was interesting - the two first seasons, but after that it goes from have some leg to it, to a pure right wing propaganda tool like many of the tool the nazis was using in the 1930s, to harden the germans to what came after 1939-40 when all the devil of the nazi-regime was made possible, both in Germany and in the east european country. I would not be that surprised if the US in the end was building some concentration camps inside USA, to "protect the people from enemies from inside".. Or that in the end the democracy in US would end like it ended in Germany in 1933, when "the law to protect the german people and the german nation" was made law, and the foundation for everything the Nazis did between 1933 and 1945..
This "hero worshiping" when torture is made legan, because it save life's is just humbug, how many american soldiers had been saved if the you had just followed international Law, as the rest of the world are doing it?.. How many young woman and men had not been given a future if you just had followed what you claim to be your principles?.. How many new friends had US not been given, if you just had followed what it right?

When it came to I am tired of everything and want us to move on. After Nuremberg, it was more or less made public for everyone that you cant just "move on" but have to take your responsibility, and take the criminals to cort. Regardless if the accused is a GI soldier, or the President of the United States. Until George Walker Bush jr, the imaging of putting the american president in dock, accused of war crimes was something no one serious wanted to discuss, because it was something a hyperbole.. Today it is not a hyperbole, but rater something that SHOULD HAVE BEEN a fact.. The whole Administration of GWB, should have faced a tribunal the next day they was given the power away.. And everything that the former administration have been doing should have been given to the criminal tribunal, who should have made a serious attempt to get into what happened and started to prosecute the criminals.. In Nuremberg, after a war where the germans lost everything, and where all the city's was bombed to the ground, somehow they managed to get to the evidence, and 12 of 21 was hanged for their crimes... Washington DC of today, are not bombed to the ground, you still have a function cort, and a function civil government in place. You must, regardless if people say you have to move on, make it possible to put the criminals to court, and at least give the cort the evidence to on independent feet even give a free bill of right, or arrest, convict and put the criminals away one and for all.. When the germans had their court, not just in Nuremberg but in the 1950s-1960s-1970s, and even up to 1990s against former murderer in concentration camp, then US, who claim to be a rock democratic republic should have no problem of getting every evidence needed to prosecute the criminals, and let the world, that the types of mr Bush are not accepted in the US anymore..
The american public (and I might be little rude here) Is a people who are very "black and white" when it come to reality. It is no surprise that Either you are with us, or against us was given so much bravo in the US. When in the rest of the world, it was at least given a cold shoulder.. To me, many american look very naive to the world. You really BELIEVE in the movies, you really believe that every one of the soldiers who are marching to war, is good soldiers, and that EVERYONE who are not on your side is your eternal enemy, shoo should be very happy if they should survive, to live as their new master is telling them..
To me, the american public, seen to be little naive, and maybe little mind bungled when the world are knocking on their door, and that reality of what US have been doing maybe 30-40 year ago, are hitting home.. You have no "news" wort speaking of, and they who get real information are doing it from abroad.. Like UK and so.. Even your own big ones, like Washington Post and New York Times are not what they was, just 8 year ago... They are more like propaganda news, than really on fact finding missions, to inform the american public what the government are really doing.. Or at least for th last 8 year, the US news have not been doing their job by far...

As long as the american public are not been told the brutal real truth about torture and murder the american public would tend to believe that torture is ok, and that raping and killing children and woman is not just right, but also JUST. Because they are not been that, the enemies would win, and the american way of life would be in danger.. I is far more respectable for many american, to se Innocent be maimed, and killed in the name of "security" than to get the real enemies of the street and in to custody... Specially the last 8 year, the most evil side of the american public is more know than ever before. Not before a large sum of american them self are feeling the brunt of the support for torture and murdering of Innocent then the american them self would end the support of torture - Just wait, it is just "time" before the first americans are been put into prisons, to be tortured as the prisoner guards are most pleased with. In many other totalitarian states, like Germany, and Soviet, the support of violence against prisoner, because of the occasion of them being "enemies of the state" was in the initial part very strong. But when the use of torture was made more widespread, and specially when everyone had a familiymember who was into custody, then the view about torture changed little. Not much but little by little..

The US, have to make the case to arrest, and if the evidence show it, convict the criminals, not just the lower ranks, but all the way up to the President, as the evidence is coming out, more and more that the amerian Vice President more than suported the idea of torture of "some" prisoners it look like at least that from the Vice President down, the whole thing was made posible, to destroy everything that US was standing for, when it come to act acording to the geneva tractats, and the legal right to act as best was something in the gray zone..
If you DO NOT make this something that can be doing, then the next president - or your current president ca do more or less what he want to do, and it would have no or little consequense for him or his cabinet. Is that if you want, in theory a President, who are living over the law, and that never can be prosecuted if he misuse or doing criminality against the Republic.. Then you might fall to the same power that the roman Republic was falling to, when the generals was fighing for power.. You know Sulla, Scaesar, and in the end, a monarcy in the clouth of the Republic was made posible by Emperor Octavian Augustus who in 31 BC won the war..

But one thing is different from the age of Rome. Today you have nuclear weapon, and with a madman like GWB, or worse, who are capable of USING the nuclear weapon against "the others" you might have a problem on your hand...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
104. Exactly and the third way
is how I see it. My husband makes a good living, we moved to the suburbs of Portland last year. That was a hard thing-giving up the city-but the housing price were better and yes, the schools.

NEVER have I seen so damn many American flags in my life. So PROUD they are of what exactly-their damn good life in the suburbs and all the people we have murdered to make their life so good (FREEDOM isn't free-gotta kill for it) -oh sorry-but what is it? A DAMN myth. No I take that back-it's not a myth-their life is GOOD. The are white, upper middle class to just middle class-but there is no problem with America to them apparently. They are PROUD of America. Proud. Proud of the torture done in thier name. OH WAIT, they are innocent because they don't know or don't care. They are the banality of evil. I know many times, this stuff is so horrifying I cannnot read it. But I know.

That flag represents people being tortured for me, in my name. I WILL NEVER see an American flag and not think of the horrors that have been done in my name. Maybe if Obama actually told the truth to America and there was some accountability I wouldn't see the blindness of evil when I look at their happy flags flying in the suburban breeze, but I doubt that day will come.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
35. AMERICA; the nation who "slices genitals".
But hey, we're the GOOD guys so it's ok when we do it!!1!


I wonder why they hate us...






:eyes:
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enuegii Donating Member (624 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #35
123. Why, they hate us for our freedoms...
Of course, that dick-whittling probably isn't very popular, either.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
36. I cringe with shame but recommend the OP
don't let this hide from sight.
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PatrynXX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
38. Hopefully they don't do the trick in the movie Taken
Yes idiot wakes up in a chair. and sure it's a fun movie, but it made it look like torture worked.


Neeson drives two stakes through the guys thighs and hooks it up to the electrical power. That one was a new one in movies. At least I'd never seen that done before. Sure there's Rambo tied to a metal bed, but 2 stakes driven? OUCH!!!
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
98. see the movie again
you are wrong
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Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
40. I didn't know they did that, but

I did assume waterboarding was the least of it. Not that it's probably enjoyable, but I doubt, particular from the pictures I've seen, and the ones that have been rumoured, and the ones that are probably too intense to even be released, if waterboarding was all we did, I'd be surprised. Not to diminish waterboarding, but I suspect we did waaaay more than anyone will ever know. That's the kind of stuff that will stay in a vault for 100 years, if not forever.
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wial Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
41. back in the '90s...
...when I worked on free Burma, I talked to Burmese student dissidents who told me they had seen British built torture implements in Burmese prisons, and had captured Swedish-built anti-personnel bombs in use by the pariah Burmese military.

Meanwhile, Norway kills whales while Japan takes all the blame, and serves cadmium-laced salmon to the world.

The self-righteous-stupidity barrel of Western "civilization" needs a good scraping, to say the least.

We need a course in primary school to teach young bullies rule of law is to be respected and honored, not trivialized. And a holiday with a Dick Cheney pinata in which kids are taught how despicable it is to think like him and/or Tory ministerial staff.

OK better, just teach them how to play banjos that surround hatred and force it to surrender.
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
42. We are primed for a 'Pentagon Papers' type disclosure on Gitmo and Abu Ghraib....
... and the content will be beyond shocking to Americans, but not to the rest of the world.

We are insulated by a press that refused to report the truth while Bush was in office, and the rest of the world sees news coverage that we never see on these matters.

I will never forget the senators who came out and spoke to the press after viewing the torture pictures and video from Abu Ghraib ... they were stunned and said it what they saw was much worse.

It would not surprise me if war crimes charges are not eventually brought against Bush and Cheney once the evidence becomes public. The UN already knows enough to bring charges, but once this spills into the public domain their hand will be forced to institute charges.
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HowHasItComeToThis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. OUR FREE PRESS IS JUST A MONEY MAKING MACHINE
AVAILABLE TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
85. we don't need them anymore. n/t
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
44. I Think I Liked It Better When CIA Was Free To Assassinate People
An airplane accident is so much more convenient than dangling entrails.
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Pryderi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
51. Did the British, the Americans or both torture Mr Mohamed?
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. None of the above. He was tortured by Moroccans...
after being captured in Pakistan. This goes to the point I was making above that the article in question is a bit misleading.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #51
68. they allowed it to happen, they transported the prisoners on a silver platter
for the express purpose of torture.

in book, its the same thing.

in fact, its worse, because they think it gives them plausible deniability if they just WATCH the torture.

that's worse.


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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
52. Oh! My! God! This happened while held in American custody? We are disgraced totally.
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 03:16 PM by HereSince1628
In Morroco? Who held the scalpel?

Cheney took Yoo's documents and allowed this--how can there NOT be war crimes trials????????

If Pelosi and Reid knew of this and allowed it to proceed they should be tried for war crimes as well.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
53. Close Guantanamo now, President Obama.
No excuses for Democrats accepting a statement from the President that he intends to close it. Enough. Change now, not at some point in the distant foreseeable future.

I do not forgive the President or the Democrats for keeping this farce open while they work on other agenda items.
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
54. K & R
Let's see if the MSM spends even 10 seconds on this.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
55. tragic..this should be forwarded to all americans who still defend this evil
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caraher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
60. we MUST investigate, prosecute and incarcerate
if we want to pretend to be a civilized nation, at least.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. This is SO scarry I can believe Obama would hide it
thinnking that he would save the nation.

BUT, if the US was approving things like genital mutilation, we are a failed state and don't really deserve to be a country any longer.

It's time to hit the reset and reboot this crazy country under a different operating system.
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Excuse me?
It's okay if Obama knew this and tried to hide it? The TRUTH? It's okay for Obama to hide the truth? It is not okay.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. ? Where did I say it is OK? Where?
I don't think I did. I said I can understand the impulse to bury this in secrecy. Not that "that" is what should happen.

This is a HORRIFYING disclosure about a HEINOUS act! If this were proved true people in very high places should be facing capital punishment.




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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. You implied it, even if innocently...
"This is SO scarry I can believe Obama would hide it thinking that he would save the nation."

That implies somehow that it's okay. To save the nation or to save face?

"I said I can understand the impulse to bury this in secrecy. Not that "that" is what should happen."

I cannot. Not after someone held a previous administration accountable in his inaugural address. And then turns around and does the same thing.

And now he is defending "extraordinary rendition." Please. Enough. I want my vote back.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. Sorry, snooks, but that is unwarranted and represents your interpretation not what I wrote.
You are putting your spin on it. Not mine.

Not an uncommon phenomenon on this board, I'll admit.

Have a nice day snooks.





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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #63
113. I think we are getting bullshited here
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
61. America, Fuck Yeah!
:puke:
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scytherius Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
65. Boy guys. I feel SO safe from terrorism now. Don't you???
The Right Wing needs to be ground into the dirt. This had nothing to do with protecting America and everything to do with the evil that is conservatism and it's bloodlust.
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jhrobbins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
66. What astonishes me is the number of people (not here, of course) on other
sites that are still defending this administration. Certainly, they are diminishing in number, but I guess I am naively expecting all decent people to condemn this practice and administration and MI5 or 6
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. oh, you can find them here, as well.
or the "hair splitters"
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
71. Dear President Obama: Are we at "egregious" yet???
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. I'd Settle For "Grave" ...
"I think you reserve impeachment for grave, grave breaches, and intentional breaches of the president's authority." -- Senator Barak Obama

It's also a "grave...and intentional breach of the president's authority" to aid-and-abet torture and war crimes after the fact.

There's no "centrist" fence to sit upon with torture. Failure to ACT earns you a seat on the bus to The Hague.

--
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bushmeister0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
72. Being retrained in a chair and having a tube shoved up your nose is torture, too.
But it's for their own good.

Note this part in the news piece: "Mohamed remains at Guantanamo Bay and 'is currently on hunger strike.'"

While Obama fiddles this is going on. . .

AP:

"The number of inmates on hunger strike at the Guantanamo Bay detention facility has risen sharply to 42 -- eight more than last week, officials said Monday at the US-run 'war-on-terror' prison.

"We have 42 hunger strikers," said Captain Pauline Storum, spokesperson for the facility, who said the figure includes 31 detainees being force-fed.

US military authorities said forced feedings begin after a detainee either has gone three weeks without a meal, has fallen below 85 percent of his ideal body weight, or if a doctor has recommended it as a medical necessity to preserve an inmate's life."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/pl_afp/usattacksgu...

Enter the "Padded Cell on Wheels."


http://www.restraintchair.com/diagram.htm

The NYT reported back in 2006:

"In recent weeks, the officials said, guards have begun strapping recalcitrant detainees into 'restraint chairs,' sometimes for hours a day, to feed them through tubes and prevent them from deliberately vomiting afterward . . . Lawyers who have visited clients in recent weeks criticized the latest measures, particularly the use of the restraint chair, as abusive.

'It is clear that the government has ended the hunger strike through the use of force and through the most brutal and inhumane types of treatment, said Thomas B. Wilner, a lawyer at Shearman & Sterling in Washington, who last week visited the six Kuwaiti detainees he represents. 'It is a disgrace.'

. . . Until yesterday, Guantnamo officials had acknowledged only having forcibly restrained detainees to feed them a handful of times. In those cases, the officials said, doctors had restrained detainees on hospital beds using Velcro straps.

Two military officials, who insisted on anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the question, said that the use of restraint chairs started after it was found that some hunger strikers were deliberately vomiting in their cells after having been tube-fed and that their health was growing precarious.

In a telephone interview yesterday, the manufacturer of the so-called Emergency Restraint Chair, Tom Hogan, said his small Iowa company shipped five $1,150 chairs to Guantnamo on Dec. 5 and 20 additional chairs on Jan. 10, using a military postal address in Virginia. Mr. Hogan said the chairs were typically used in jails, prisons and psychiatric hospitals to deal with violent inmates or patients.

. . . Mr. Odah also said that lozenges that had been distributed to soothe the hunger strikers' throats had disappeared and that the liquid formula they were given was mixed with other ingredients to cause diarrhea, Mr. Wilner said."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0209-06.htm
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wroberts189 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
74. O'reilly: "Thats just frat hazing" ... Can we call them Nazis yet? nt
Edited on Mon Feb-09-09 04:14 PM by wroberts189
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
75. Just when I thought I'd heard it all...
:puke:

Fuck george and the dick he rode in on. Throw them in jail and feed them contaminated peanut products while they await their day in court. :mad: :grr:
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johan helge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
77. K & R
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bottomtheweaver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
81. Talk about corrupt from within.
If this is what we've been doing for the last eight years--and it is, for the past four or five decades--our lousy stinking usury empire deserves to fall. In fact, it already has.
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ConcernedCanuk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
82. From another poster "the 8 year with mr Bush, who made the impossible, possible"
.
.
.

Shame on the USAmericans for allowing the BushGang to do what they did

WE cried, whined, criticized,

but sat back as the USA's WarMachine marched on under the whip of the BFEE and the PNAC gangs

if there are nuts that deserve to be cut

they be with the BFEE and PNAC gangs

That's my Canuk observations
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #82
97. ConcernedCanuk
ConcernedCanuk

I guess that was from me ;): And yes, the last 8 year, the impossible have been made possible, and I am afraid that every time some one is waiting the american flag in many americans face, they would follow it to the bitter end. Even that it means WW3...

Many of you was indeed doing everything possible to stop the madness, but in the end the war star started, no WMD found, and now 7 year after, you have no clue what so ever to possible get out of Iraq, with "honour". Even that the economy is in shamble, and that the recession is going from bad to worse almost day for day..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english not my native language.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
86. We Have a Very Sick and Twisted Government
and until Bush Admin is held accountable in a court of law, it will fester into something much worse.
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tan guera Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. So do we lobby the White House about this?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. lobby, write, email, call...
it's everybody's choice to make.
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Optical.Catalyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
89. This is just peeling back the layers
The American people are being fed the news about Guantanamo a little at a time to de-sensitize them to the horrors of what went on there.

In Abu Ghraib there was dogs and loud music. In Afghanistan prisoners were staved and kept in freezing CONEX boxes. In Gitmo there was water boarding.

Each time more information is reveled, Americans just accept it and go on.

What is needed is a bomb shell of news that gets the kit and kaboodle out there at once so that the outrage sends Bush and his gang to prison.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. "Americans just accept it and go on"
The Bush admin was a reflection of the American people.

The same troubles will be with us until we cure that.

(Get rid of hate radio and megachurches or else just get used to this)
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Optical.Catalyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #91
121. I had completely overlooked the excuse machine of Talk Radio
The public air waves are saturated with right wing voices making every conceivable excuse and justification for the atrocities of the Bush. The right wing radio jocks prevent the American people from find that one quantum event that sends them over the edge. The conservative masses are instructed that every new revelation about torture was justified balanced by the notion that anyone objecting hates America. Joseph Goebbels would have been proud.


We do need a little fairness in the radio air waves.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
92. Peepee whacking freaks!
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
94. Makes me want to puke.
What have we become?
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HEyHEY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
95. FIre up the justice oven and bake these fuckos.
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Omaha Steve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
96. The home of the Brave?

Not while W was in office. The film "Jacob the Liar" has a scene with Robin Williams being water-boarded by Nazi's. It is in a few other films too.

I remember how my dad hated the soldiers of Japan for torture they did to his buddies in the service. We have made the world hate us for many years to come I'm afraid. This made America safe?

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ProgressIn2008 Donating Member (848 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
100. Obama admin threatens to withold military intel from UK if details of torture known
"Two High Court judges issued a scathing attack on the White House after it emerged that the US threatened to withdraw all intelligence co-operation from Britain if details of the treatment of Binyam Mohamed were made public."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/majornews/4517343/Tortu...

Consider that -- the admin threatened to put Britons in jeopardy in order to protect grisly torture. This is what we're up against.
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caraher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #100
122. Actually, I think that happened in the final week of the Bush regime
Not that I've heard anyone in the present administration tell those judges to go ahead after all...
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PfcHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
103. Nothing here. What's on teevee tonight ?
:eyes:
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
106. I'm remembering all the torture video/pic's all the Senators viewed but none would comment on
a couple of years ago, then there the one that showed a young boy being raped in front of his parents, Cheney & Rumsfeld must have loved that one
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bonito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
107. I read this as well somewhere but couldn't fathom
It was off my reality scale, I just don't know anymore how these cruel things exist.

These things don't in my mind. and how dark this world can be seams beyond me, a sad state of affairs indeed, we find ourselves in these days not the America I was raise in.
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Devil_Fish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
110. I'm sorry, I don't see any problem with this.
Every day the genitals of thousands of infants are sliced with a scalpel.

These infants are put in leg and arm restraints when they are a day old, and the most sensitive part of their penis is cut off with a scalpel. Guess which bizarre, country this barbaric practice takes place in... (hint: it ain't Gitmo Cuba, Iraq, Iran, etc.) It happens right her in the good old U.S.A.

Judging by the responses to this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It would seem that the cutting of genitals with a scalpel for no good reason at all is completely O.K. With about 95% of Americans. So why all the fuss over cutting genitals with a scalpel for the purpose of getting info that could possibly prevent an attack on this country?

(note: the sarcasm icon in not appropriate, the intention of this response is to point out the total hypocrisy in the attitudes displayed regarding H.G.M. (Human Genital Mutilation) For the record, I believe all HGM with out consent is torture.)
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mentalslavery Donating Member (215 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-09 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
111. Obama's going to have a hard time explainin this DOJ/Cali deal
I am inclined to believe that it is procedural-That the DOJ can not reverse position without a review. However, you would think they would have gotten to that. On the other hand, who knows how much shit bush left them to review. I could see that snake creating a massive paper trial to delay and confuse any type of investigation.

Either way. So much shit is becoming very public-shit you would only get peeps of on blogs are getting MSM. Wonder if this is a plan to create a public outcry, part of the "you have to force me" strategy.

If not, say good bye to a lot of political capital, which means we get to say goodbye to a lot of legislation.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
117. My god I'm going to be sick. What on earth was wrong with these people?
The people that ordered it and the people who carried it out??? God, can we please arrest and try these numbskulls now?

The poor victims. How dreadful!
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Enthusiast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 05:46 AM
Response to Original message
119. We should force this
into the major media.

Maybe Barney Frank could help. With his superpowers he was able to "force" the entire banking industry to make questionable loans. :sarcasm:
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
120. This sort of thing has always gone on.
And will probably continue unabated.
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daggahead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
124. According to Republicans, detainees were treated like guests of a fine country club, n/t
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #124
126. That's what Rush 'Draft Dodger" Limbaugh is spinning...but
As he racks in his $38 million a year payoff for spouting lies and propaganda, he needs to remember that since he dodged the draft and stayed doped up on the drugs he's addicted to, he has NO FRIKKEN IDEA of the truth of the matter....
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daggahead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #126
129. I know ... but I've heard many repug lawmakers say this (luxurious conditions at GITMO) n/t
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
125. Republicon torture freaks must be brought to justice
Their lust for inflicting suffering is anti-American, anti-Christian, anti-human.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
127. Bush and Cheney are sick twisted feaks.
I hope Obama goes after them but does it carefeully, through the AG. I would not put anything past the neo cons.
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Paulaguyon Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
128. hot liquid was allegedly poured into the penis wounds
According to a NY Times piece on the Boeing lawsuit today.
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dcsmart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
130. "if you cannot do the time , don't do the crime"
:nopity:
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. Did you forget the 'sarcasm' icon?
All terror charges against him were dropped last year, the Telegraph reported.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #130
132. Explain yourself, motherfucker!
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
133. if torture occurred--worse than waterboarding
and there's proof--wouldn't just the exposure of such depravities put the country at risk, security wise? If extreme torture is exposed, the administration has no choice but to prosecute those involved, for at least security sake. Some countries (and their populace) won't sit and do nothing--they will demand justice-if justice is not forthcoming, then some may attempt retaliation. So, my belief is they don't want exposure for security reasons. If a whistleblower (or more) come forward, it may force their hand to prosecute.

That's my thoughts on the subject. ;-)
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