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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 11:09 PM
Original message
1,800 Germans dug up from 1945 mass grave in Poland
Source: AFP

January 7, 2009

WARSAW - The remains of 1,800 German civilians who perished in 1945, towards the end of the World War II, have been exhumed from a mass grave in Malbork, northern Poland, officials said Wednesday ...

"Some of the victims must have been shot dead. One skull in 10 bears bullet holes," <municipal official Piotr Szwedowski> added ...

"The bodies were strewn about in a chaotic fashion in a vast crater created by a shell explosion," Szwedowski said ...

"It will be a difficult investigation," Szwedowski said. "All of the people were buried naked, without shoes or any personal effects. Metal detectors found no traces during the exhumation work conducted so far, not even dental work," he said ...

Read more: http://www.suntimes.com/news/world/1366090,w-world-war-two-malbork-poland010709.article
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Innocent civilians killed by the people their leaders tried to kill.
Damn. Where have I heard that before?
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'd guess you heard about it any other time a war was discussed
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. I have a question - How do they know they are Germans? eom
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Read the article: the area was part of Germany at the end of the war
and the number of bodies appears to match the number of city residents who went missing after failing to evacuate

Perhaps your question is really: how do we know the bodies don't reflect a population targetted for extermination by the Nazis? I'm not an expert on the period, but careful archaeology ought to resolve such a question with high probability. The Nazis typically kept good records of their institutionalized murders, and one probably knows when various parts of Poland were depopulated and where the victims were sent
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M155Y_A1CH Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. DNA most likely
I would guess?
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Gwendolyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. At least they're accounted for finally, and will get a decent burial.
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. i would imagine russians did it
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 12:08 AM by iamthebandfanman
not the polish people.

just a hunch tho.
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Hulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Are you sure shrub and darth vader didn't have something to do with it??
Considering the Nazi's pretty well exterminated the majority of Polish peoples, I would guess the Soviets had something to do with it.

And a good question about "how do you know they were Germans" if they had NO clothes or personal belongings? Seems like they would be skeletons, and not much more. Did German skeletons look "better" or different than other skeletons?

At this point...who gives a rat's ass?
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
7. This sounds like the work of Stalin's Red Army....
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 12:10 AM by Historic NY
he killed thousands during and after the war. Remember the Polish officer corps massacre, he tried to blame the Nazi's when he was responsible. The Germans would have been a little more orderly. The shell hole would have come from an opposing force.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Could be, but I am inclined to think this was done by the Germans
From everything I have read on the subject, the soldiers of the Soviet Army were under very strict rules about brutalizing the civilian population of the Eastern European countries the liberated. The punishment for looting, rape, etc. was death. These restrictions were inplace until the Soviet Army crossed into Germany and Austria. The Politruks then let the Soviet soldiers know that the old rules no longer applied. Of course, even if the Soviet Army did commit this mass killing, chances are that it was the action of a local commander. There is little evidence indicating such killings on any scale in countries liberated by the Soviet Army. It does not appear to be Soviet policy. JMO
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. There are several books that have been written by
ex-soviet soldiers and war historians over the years that detail the Eastern Front.

Many of these books are substantiated by soviet archives that were opened after the fall of the USSR.

Most of these books detail truly brutal acts by the soviets in revenge for how the nazi's and german army revenged the people and the russian land in the early part of the war.

I do believe that this was carried out by the soviets without a single doubt in my mind.

When the germans first pushed into russia, they carried out whole sale genocide upon the local populations. blighting whole towns from the map, using bodies as road support when the ground got muddy, keeping women alive for the purpose of rape rooms so the german soldiers would have a little "R and R".

Read the 900 days, the Stalingrad, the the last days of Berlin to start off with, there are several other titles that escape me at the moment.

the atrocities that the german army propagated upon the russian population is truly staggering.

When the tide began to turn in late 1943, the russians smelled blood and basically committed the same acts of brutality upon Ukrainians who collaborated with the germans, russian soldiers who were held prisoner by the germans (they felt that these soviets were now tainted by outside influences), and huge german population that was resettled in the area by hitler.

mass burials of german people and german soldiers are being found more and more often as modern building development tears up the land.

why I believe this was done by the soviets: the bodies had multiple wounds, they were naked and no dental work.

Multiple wounds. by the time the soviets were moving into poland, the mass production of the machine gun Soviet PPSh-41 "Burp Gun" was in wide use as the russian production sector finally got up to full speed, no longer needing american help.

during the winter assault, many of the soviet troops were under dressed. Stripping of prisoners, civilians and soldiers of the clothes was wide spread.

and finally, dental work missing. Many people back then had gold fillings. it was common practice by all armies, though many will deny it, to steal the gold from the mouths of the dead. (sometimes, the people weren't dead)

As the soviets moved across poland many of the towns they encountered had become "germanized", much like the german invasion earlier in the war and as I have mentioned above, the soviets would "clean out a town". Basically killing everything. this was not unheard of. due to the massive loss of life by the soviets in the early days of the war, the world looked the other way when concerning these atrocities.

I study WWII in great depth and particular the Eastern Front.

there are things that I have read that have given me nightmares. I can't even fathom how people lived through it.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. A few written sources would be appreciated.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I named three books, what else do you want? nt
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spiro Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-09-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. actual names of books...
Here is a list of some books regarding this rather sensitive subject.

"Crimes and Mercies" by James Bacque.

"A Terrible Revenge, the ethnic cleansing of eastern european Germans" by Alfred De Zayas

"Nemesis at Potsdam" by Alfred De Zayas

"After the Reich" by Giles Macdonogh



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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Cite your sources
We shipped very few small infantry weapons such as garands or springfields to the Soviets. They prefered there own weapons. by 1944 the germans were well equipped with submachine guns. What caliber were the wounds found the the Polish bodies. The Germans liquidated several villages in France.
and czeckolavakia. It was the Germans that were not equipped for a winter war. Take a look at the Soviet forces counter attacking outside of Moscow, these divisions came directly from Siberia. Look at the Soviet forces counter attacking along the Don front in winter 0f 42. All of the are equiped for winter weather. It is not uncommon to see photos of Germans wearing clothing stripped from the dead and civilians but I do not recall one of Soviet soldiers. What does "Germanized" mean. Does that mean that the Germans had moved everyone out and replaced them with Germans. Or were these people actively aiding the Germans? Can you site some sources?
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. oh for the love of god...
you really haven't a clue about what you are talking about. I sighted my sources in my post. Do you need more than 3 titles? or don't you read books anymore?
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. ???
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 12:12 PM by brentspeak
It wasn't official Red Army policy to conduct mass killings, but it sure was unofficial Red Army practice to do so. The Soviets raped, pillaged, and murdered their way westwards towards Berlin. Not even Jewish women freed from concentration camps were spared; they were subject to rape and murder, too.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Stalin had a policy of cleaning up Ethnic disputes by making clean lines
One of the thing Stalin ORDERED was that as many Germans as possible had to be removed from what was to be Poland in 1945 i.e. everything East of the Oder River. Many of the Ethnic Germans left before the Russian Army took over the area, but many stayed and were removed by the Russian Army itself.

Now I do NOT see these people being killed off by the Poles, even Poles from the area for most Poles did NOT have the means to do so (The Germans had strictly restricted weapons in this area). The Germans had no reason to kill Poles in 1945 (Even the killings in the Death Camps tend to end as 1944 became 1945 do to the final breakdown of the German Economy in early 1945 do to the Soviet onslaught in early 1945). Thus that leaves the Russians. If a group of Germans refused to leave with the Germans and then under pressure of the Russians, I see some Russian unit, seeking revenge for the atrocities the Germans did in Russian between 1941 and 1944, the ongoing fight to the death between the German Army and the Soviet Army, Pressure from Stalin to "Solve" the ethnic problems of the pre WWII Polish Corridor (German Populated but part of Poland) I can see such an "small" execution taking place, more to scare other Germans into leaving then anything else (The stripping of clothes would be the result of how desperate the Russian Army was in supplies, the Soldiers taking the clothes off the bodies for their own use to keep warm). The reason it was secret was do to Stalin's other order to avoid killing Civilians AND to cover up the stealing of the clothes. Thus this smacks of being a one time execution do by a unit told to get German to move back to Germany and refusing to do so. At the same time the unit was under orders NOT to harm Civilians AND suffering from a shortage of winter Clothing. Thus the people were executed, the story was spread to other villages but once that was done the bodies were dumped into a grace and the whole incident Covered up.

I always like Patton's famous Order (Paraphrased from memory), which went this way: "In war rapes occur, I want all and any report of such rapes brought to my attention so the offending soldier can be shot". Bad incidents occur in any war by every army, the issue is how that army handles such incidents, does it cover it up? does it punish the offender? does it deny it happen? The Soviet Army seems to have done #2, i.e. Covered it up, for given the Soviet Tactics of the time period, the Soldiers who did the killing were probably dead from combat by the time Stalin heard about the incident (And Stalin was a detailed oriented person, so he would have heard about it, unlike Hitler who avoided details completely, thus there is little evidence Hitler knew about the Death Camps for their were a mere detail he habitually ignored, but the fact that the Jews were being killed he knew and encouraged, just a comment on one of the chief differences between Hitler and Stalin, both ruthless dictators, but one lost his dictatorship through losing a war, the other dieing of nature causes).

Thus this was probably a Soviet Red Army massacre, not approved by higher command, but a war crime none the less, but one that has to be directed at the people who did the crime, through we can put blame on those in higher command who put the men into a situation that a war crime seemed to them to be the best solution to the problem facing them (To different this was the German policy of not only permitting such massacres, but encouraging them when it came to the people and the Army of the Soviet Union).
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. It was done by the Poles.
17 million Germans were ethnically cleansed from their eastern lands in 1945-46. About 80% fled westwards and the rest are in graves such as this one in Marienburg.

The Red Army were avid rapists and did more than their fair share of massacring (the death rate for German POW's was 90%) but they left the eradication of Germans to the locals who took up the task with gusto.

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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
9. 1,800 people in one crater. That is one hell of a crater.
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