Archaeologists to refuse help over possible Iran strike

[Adsos Letter]

Source: NewScientist

PERSEPOLIS, once the capital of the Persian empire, and the massive mud-brick Bam citadel are among the nine listed World Heritage Sites in Iran. Yet leading archaeologists are urging colleagues to refuse any military requests to draw up a list of Iranian sites that should be exempted from air strikes.

"Such advice would provide cultural credibility and respectability to the military action," said a resolution agreed by the World Archaeological Congress in Dublin, Ireland, last week. Instead, delegates were advised to emphasise the harm that any military action would do to Iran's people and heritage.

Read more: http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19926642.800-archaeologists-to-refuse-help-over-possible-iran-strike.html?feedId=online-news_rss20

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The archaeologists are taking things seriously. I wonder if the military has actually approached them for a list yet? If so, that might be a good indicator of the degree to which we are moving beyond saber-rattling.

[Jefferson23]

1. Holy shit. God help us all

[roguevalley]

18. how awful we are that we do things like this for nothing. there won't

be an ancient site left in the middle east before the barbarian bush is through.

[madrchsod]

2. several antiques dealers went to the white house

before the war and asked if they could "protect" the treasures of the western world after the troops secured Baghdad...we know what happened to the treasures in the museum

[Baby Snooks]

3. The Eugenics of War

The Bush family obviously believes in eugenics of war. They not only destroyed the country in Iraq they destroyed the civilization when it destroyed the artifacts in the National Museum and now they seek do the same in Iran. What better way to destroy a people than to destroy their history. The Bushes are truly evil. As are those who support them.

That includes the Democratic members of Congress who have continued to serve the agenda of this family rather than protect the interests of the American people and the Constitution.

We do indeed have enemies. The worst enemies, however, are the ones in the White House and in Congress.

And the worst of the enemies in Congress is Nancy Pelosi.

[Igel]

7. The current Iraqi civilization--or even that of 2000--

doesn't really bear much resemblance to the Iraqi civilization of 2000 BC.

Different language, religion, tribes, overt ethnicity, relationships with surrounding cultures, social structure (to a large extent), etc., etc.

One aspect that is probably similar--tribalism under a fairly authoritarian regime--didn't show up much in the records or culture, any more than it did in Saddam's representations to the outside world.

The aspects that are similar don't need documenting for a culture to continue to exist; the aspects that are dissimilar are irrelevant as far as a current culture is concerned. Think about your own culture: If Williamsburg were destroyed, would your culture cease to exist? Or pick some symbol of old culture from wherever your ancestors originated--native American or otherwise: If it ceased to exist, if we lost some document or artefact from 1000 years ago, would it much matter?

Nah. Destroy Tara, and my culture is unchanged. Dispose of the surviving copies of the Magna Carta, and what it says would continue. Pave over Williamsburg, and I don't think it would change how I view other Americans, what proper societal relations are, my diet or clothing or aesthetic values. Then again, I don't value my culture's uniqueness because of some artefacts sitting in a museum or yet buried, and I'm not really all that insecure about what my culture consists of (I have some doubt about other people's, but that's largely a lack of information about what they think and believe, or reflects their own insecurity).

[The Stranger]

11. The premise you use (to implicitly support attacking Iran) is patently absurd.

Of course, no ancient civilization is going to "bear much resemblance" to a modern nation. You're trying to denigrate the incredibly rich legacy of the ancient Persians based on that? What kind of ridiculous straw man is that?

Then trying to attack Iranians/Persians for their ancestors having "a fairly authoritarian regime" is despicable. What ancient civilization did not have "a fairly authoritarian regime"? They were all tribes led by kings or monarchs.

Finally, trying to get others to condone the destruction of ancient cultural artifacts, where you are really not "all that insecure about (your own) culture," but "have some doubt about other people's (culture)"?

Is this some kind of joke?

[Adsos Letter]

12. We might disagree about the importance of preserving material culture remains...

but I don't think that is the issue you are addressing, if I read you correctly.

For instance, I do believe it is important for western culture to preserve the material remains which speak to the basis of our conceptions of freedom, law, and social obligation (and not ONLY these, but they are high on my list). These things give us concrete references for our abstract ideas (that is poorly worded, but the best I can do without more coffee...).

However, without education regarding the significance of the ideas material culture reflects, the value of the material culture itself remains unrecognized. (I have GOT to get more coffee in me...)

[Runcible Spoon]

14. You may dismiss the importance of preserving heritage but you cannot ignore its importance for...

everyone else.

"However, without education regarding the significance of the ideas material culture reflects, the value of the material culture itself remains unrecognized."

What a crock of bullshit. Your bias slip is showing here. Just because a Mayan no longer knows how to read the hieroglyphs on the Palenque pyramids does NOT mean they are any less a part of her heritage and cultural identity. It does NOT mean her history began with the codes of law forced upon her ancestors by the Spanish.

Every piece of heritage speaks a message. Just because it's not some Western "material remains which speak to the basis of our conceptions of freedom, law, and social obligation", in your words, does it mean that the object/site in question is devoid of value to a culture and its people. As a FUCKING MATTER OF FACT, one of the mechanics of colonialism was to destroy the indigenous art, architecture, literature, public performance, etc. in order to demoralize. The Spanish knew that, the Romans knew that, if you're such an expert on the expansion of Western ideology YOU would know that cultural heritage is symbolically potent and vital to the identity of a culture.

[Adsos Letter]

25. "What a crock of bullshit. Your bias slip is showing here."

No...just poor expression (I said in the post that it was poorly worded).

NONE of the things you assert about me are accurate; however, in context I certainly understand why this elicited the response it did.

I have to step out for a couple of hours, but I will clarify my stance when I return, if you are interested.

The short version is: I did not mean that western society should only value and protect western culture. I am not an anthropologist, so not an expert, but I am well aware of the role of cultural imperialism in history.

[Adsos Letter]

33. Back again...

I admit that my post sounded culturally biased and ignorant of history, especially in the context of my initial OP about the archaeologists response to the possibility of bombing Iran.

"Every piece of heritage speaks a message."

Yes, it does. My comment was poorly thought out and badly expressed. (I knew what I meant...)

"For instance, I do believe it is important for western culture to preserve the material remains which speak to the basis of our conceptions of freedom, law, and social obligation (and not ONLY these, but they are high on my list). These things give us concrete references for our abstract ideas..."

"FOR INSTANCE..." that is an important qualifier... It IS important for western culture to preserve material remains that "speak to the basis of our conceptions of freedom, law, and social obligation" specifically because they provide concrete evidence for the formation of ideas about universal human rights as they have evolved over the millennia. That does NOT mean that other cultures and their material remains are of less value; the two things are not mutually exclusive, but in the context of the discussion it was poorly expressed. I did not intend it to mean that those are the ONLY material culture remains we should be concerned about preserving and understanding.

One of the greatest threats to our nation and the world at this time, imho, is the AMERICAN lack of historical memory regarding the formation of our current ideals regarding inherent, inalienable human rights, and the significance of the origins and evolution of those ideals (which have never been perfectly met but whose underlying philosophy demands universal expansion of the recognition of inalienable rights). This is what I was attempting (abysmally, as you so generously pointed out) with my comment that "...without education regarding the significance of the ideas material culture reflects, the value of the material culture itself remains unrecognized." The poster I was responding to maintained that it was possible to continue culture without the preservation of cultural remains and listed Magna Carta as an example. My intended point was that the existence of any material culture remains related to the formation and evolution of our concept of human rights, whether it is Hammurabi's Code, or Magna Carta, or the Declaration of Independence (feel free to add whatever you will) loses much of it's significance when people are not educated to realize the value of the ideals these documents witness to.

Because many Americans seem so emotionally and intellectually detached from the importance of the struggle and development which ushered in the Enlightenment ideas of universal humanity we are losing our freedoms, and continuing the cultural and economic imperialism of which you spoke. Yes, this has been the pattern in the past with western culture, but a real valuation of those Enlightenment ideas could very well help us save our own republic, and produce a different stance toward the rest of the world, in which we are capable of creating, or abetting, so much misery and injustice. It is in this context that I assert that, without education regarding the ancient origins, and struggles of the evolution of our ideals of justice, human rights, social responsibility, and the equality of all before the law, that the value of the cultural remains which witness to this (by no means all "western" or "Judeo-Christian") can (and here is how I should have expressed it) lose their value as material manifestations of important ideas.

This should not be taken to mean that material remains whose precise meanings are lost cannot serve as important, highly valued links to the past within cultures (as in the examples you cited, and which could be multiplied many times over).

"What a crock of bullshit. Your bias slip is showing here."

I don't believe I am biased in these issues, but I admit that I poorly worded it, and should have clarified the context. I am very aware of the role of cultural imperialism in history, and I understand its use as a tool of colonialism.

"Just because it's not some Western'material remains which speak to the basis of our conceptions of freedom, law, and social obligation', in your words, does it mean that the object/site in question is devoid of value to a culture and its people."

I never said, nor suggested that it was; the thought never entered my mind...but, again, I admit that I expressed it badly, both in context and expression.

"...if you're such an expert on the expansion of Western ideology YOU would know that cultural heritage is symbolically potent and vital to the identity of a culture."

I am not a cultural anthropologist; therefore, not a qualified expert. I never claimed such. My field is History. However, I am quite aware of the symbolic potential of material culture, and the destruction caused by the colonialism of which you speak. I was singling out the need for Americans (which I admit I did not specify) to educate themselves on the ideals, evolutions, and struggles that the material remains symbolize.

In the context of my OP it appeared that I was interested ONLY in the value and legitimacy of western material culture. This is not accurate about me, but I can see why it came across that way. I was trying to respond to the poster's proposition that material culture remains were unimportant to continuation of any given culture, although the example of Magna Carta sent me in the direction of the importance of those remains to western culture.

And I did, indeed, misread the direction of his thought.

EDIT: dropped a quotation mark... :dunce:

[Ian David]

15. You just made me throw-up in my mouth a little bit. n/t

[pitohui]

19. wtf?

"destroy tara and my culture is unchanged" -- no doubt that's because tara is not a real place

what's the matter with people?

my culture as an american is the frontier, destroy the grand canyon or monument valley and of course my culture is completely changed, the future as well as the past is changed

i do not think unique heritage sites should be destroyed in iran/persia, and i do not assume their heritage sites are of no value just because i don't happen to know much of anything about them, it's somebody's heritage, don't we have better things to do?

wasn't our entire culture changed just by the world trade center being bombed, and that's just really one small bit of our capitalist heritage, isn't it?

destroying things changes things, of course it does, your argument strikes me as just silly

ideas that have no material existence aren't as powerful as ideas that do have material expression

[Adsos Letter]

34. ...

"ideas that have no material existence aren't as powerful as ideas that do have material expression"

That was the general point I was trying to make, though I badly botched it and was taken to task for it (and quite rightly so).

[LibertyLover]

37. I beg to differ that Tara is not a real place -

The hill of Tara was the home of the high kings of Ireland. There are archaeological remains there today that indicate it was occupied in the prehistoric period, probably for religious ceremonies. Of course, the current Irish government is doing its best to pave the area over thanks to road construction. Otherwise, I tend to agree with your argument.

[Adsos Letter]

5. Good point...

we made certain to secure the oil ministry but left their antiquities open to looting, as you have alluded.

The fact that archaeologists are encouraged by their own professional organization to address the moral implications of an attack on Iran suggests just how broad opposition to the idea is.

[Wizard777]

4. Persia was the birth place of Human Rights. A copy of the scroll on Human Rights by Cyrus the Great

is on display at the UN. Bush will destroy more than Persian history. It's actually part of our history too. Many of the concepts of freedom in our Constitution actually come from the Persian Empire under Cyrus the Great. Especially freedom of religion. At the time of the founding of our country The Cyropaedia (The education of Cyrus) by Xenophon was required reading for diplomats. You can conquor a land. But you cannot crush the spirit of the people by depriving them of their past. Apparently that is what Bush and squad of revisioniost historians want to do. I also agree that an attack upon Iran will turn the region into a fireball.

[Adsos Letter]

6. Interesting points.

" But you cannot crush the spirit of the people by depriving them of their past."

This is certainly one of the reasons for making a solid understanding of the roots and formation of the ideas surrounding the establishment of our republic an integral part of our education curriculum.

Perhaps if these things were better understood they would be more highly valued.

Perhaps if they were more highly valued we would not be in the position in which we find ourselves today.

[Wizard777]

29. Humans are the sum total of our past experiences. If you steal our past.

You steal our humanity. It's really that simple.

[aquart]

28. But it will drive up the price of oil. And that is the point, isn't it?

[Wizard777]

30. No that's actually the least of it. There are far greater treasures in Iran than oil.

[aquart]

35. Not for Georgie.

[semillama]

8. Speaking as an archaeologist

Accidentally bombing Iranian cultural heritage sites is going to be pretty far down on the list of things the US will be condemned for if we attack Iran, I'm afraid. I applaud my colleagues for not enabling this insanity.

[Adsos Letter]

9. I envy you!

I wanted to be an archaeologist when I was young but pursued a different course in life. I am now retired and am finishing a graduate degree in History, another subject I have long enjoyed.

I am truly sickened when I think of the amount of information about the origins of western civilization which has been lost in the looting and destruction of sites in Iraq.

What is your field of interest?

[Runcible Spoon]

10. well, I'm just a cultural anthropologist but I support my four field peeps!

TAKE A STAND DIGGERS! :applause:

I wrote a paper once outlining the horrific effects of war and neoliberal capitalistic expansion on UNESCO sites. It's so tragic. Here's an article about the destruction of Babylon:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/attack/consequences/2005/0328babylon.htm

:cry:

[Adsos Letter]

13. Estados Banditos?

:rofl: :hi:

[Lisa]

20. cultural geographer weighing in here ...

I used to volunteer on digs in southern Ontario. Am still in touch with the supervisors, and they are all very angry about Iran/Iraq, and oppose the war.

Thanks for posting the link -- great article!

[DebbieCDC]

22. I envy you as well

It was always my dream to be an archaeologist and historian. In college I took every history class I could cram in. Life took me on different roads however :-( but I have never lost my love of history and wanting to be out there "digging it up". Der chimp has destroyed thousands of years of history and will no doubt continue to do so since the congress has no will to stop him. :grr:

[MasonJar]

16. What Bush/Cheney allowed to happen in Iraq was purposeful. The

antiquities experts visited the WH at least 3 times, explaining the importance of the historical sites and the museums. Bush, in his sociopathic ignorance and intransigent arrogance paid them no heed. These Bushistas are culturally illiterate and they have no empathy for the rest of civilization. The area between the Tigris and the Euphrates was the birthplace of civilization. I learned that in grade school. Bush was out exploding frogs. It is pretty well established that children who hurt and murder animals are psycopathic and very ill. So we are led by a psycho, sociopathic murderer.

[Caradoc]

17. My Holy Land....

...includes Stonehenge. And the Pyramids of Giza. And the Acropolis in Greece. And the Temple of Knossos in Crete. Catal Huyuk in Turkey. And the beautiful Buddhas of Bamiyan, so shamefully and cruelly destroyed by the Taleban. And the megalithic ruins of Malta. How can you say all these are so distantly removed from today? The past is not so far past...it is still with us today. The fact that the US military is asking about which sites to avoid destroying in an Iran strike shows just how soulless they have become. The Archons have come and they have dominion.

[Wizard777]

31. The heart of my Holy Land is next. I'm Mazdaian AKA Zoroastrian

I think we are also connected to Egypt. The symbols of Ra and Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord) are very simular. I don't think they were Pagans with a pantheon at all. I think what many mistake for other Gods are merely representations of Archangles like Vohumana (good mind.)The attack on Iraq was bad enough. An attack upon Iran will crush me. Ahriman Az Bushyasta* strikes again.

*Ahriman (The Destroyer) Az (The Demon of greed) Bushyasta (The Demon of sloth)

[tanyev]

36. What you said.

These ancient sites are not just someone else's heritage, they are everyone's heritage.

[radhika]

21. Did this in World War II - 'Rescuing DaVInci'

Lots of mixed feelings here..

Just finished reading an excellent book called Rescuing DaVInci. Basically, it was how the curators and artisans of Europe worked to save their most precious cultural sites and artwork when it became clear that Hitler was on his way. Of course, we know that many works were not saved. Later, when Eisenhower and the Allies landed, he (Ike) put out a directive that whenever possible our bombers and troops should preserve cultural sites - unless safety required otherwise. In fact, the allies developed detailed maps marking such sites to bomb more precisely.

I surely see the point of the Archaeologists - in a pre-emptive strike versus Iran, WE are the Hitlers. And peace must be emphasized and sustained. But I can also see value preserving the heritage of any nation in this horrible situation.

[rucky]

23. Reminds me of this Burt Lancaster movie..

The Train

rent it if you can find it.

[Barrett808]

32. "We couldn't save La Pietà."

More and more I find myself saying, "That's so Children of Men."

[MisterP]

24. wouldn't matter to the American Neovandali anyhoo n/t

[bertman]

26. This is more than cultural bias or the demoralization of another nation or people.

It's about Christianity destroying the historical proof that other civilizations much older than that of the Israelites had religious beliefs upon which today's Christian mythology is based. These "Crusaders" would like to annihilate every trace of anything that undermines their narrow superstitions about god and Jesus and the "Judaeo-Christian" foundations of our very young and foolish imperialist nation.

Ignorance, fear and dogma . MasonJar and Caradoc are both right about the Bushes. Like so many empire builders before them they lay waste to all that is different from what they believe or they do not comprehend or they fear. This is a crime against humanity and history. There is so much we can learn from the past, yet these dipshits are intent upon obliterating all evidence of the past. . . . except the past they want us to know about.

[aquart]

27. They should have drawn up a general permanent list long ago.

Another slapdash example of crappy planning for emergencies (I'm including the ones we create).