Chavez says Colombia seeks war with Venezuela

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Agence France-Presse

Chavez says Colombia seeks war with Venezuela
2 hours ago

CARACAS (AFP) — President Hugo Chavez said Sunday on his radio talk show that neighboring Colombia is trying to provoke Venezuela into a war so as to draw in and "justify" an armed intervention by the United States.

"The government of Colombia is capable of provoking a war with Venezuela to justify a US intervention in Venezuela," Chavez said on his weekly program "Alo Presidente."

He warned Colombian President Alvaro Uribe: "think closely about how far you can go, and I publicly urge you a moment of reflection."

Chavez and Uribe locked horns in March after a Colombian military attack on a Colombian rebel camp inside Ecuador -- a leftist ally of Venezuela -- triggered a week-long row that sent Ecuadoran and Colombian troops to their borders with Venezuela.


Read more: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jjiv8gWZRSsEUeXPIKiAvdC9pB_w

[Judi Lynn]

1. Please check DU'er JohnnyCougar's earlier post on this subject, moved to "Editorials:"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x358451

[Peace Patriot]

11. Yes, Bush Ambassador Brownfield and the Colombians have been cooking up a war plan

involving occupation of the Venezuelan state of Zulia (where much of the oil is), which borders Colombia--similar to the currently unfolding Bushite plan in Bolivia, of using the white separatist movement to split off the four gas/oil rich eastern provinces, which border Paraguay. This is what JohnnyCougar's post is about--the Zulia plot.

Speaking of Paraguay, I wonder if leftist Fernando Lugo's recent election as president of Paraguay is a monkey wrench in the possible Bushite plan to funnel U.S. soldiers into white separatist provinces in Bolivia, in support of these fascist bastards' "independence," and to create a fascist enclave in South America, comprised of Paraguay and east Bolivia, in the southern half of the Bolivarian revolution. Lugo--like Correa in Ecuador--opposes the U.S. air base and U.S. boots on the ground in Paraguay. And he has much in common with the many other social justice leftists elected all across South America. He is a former bishop, known as "the bishop of the poor." With his election, the Bushites are reduced to NO strategic ground in the "southern cone." In the north, of course, they have Colombia (bordering Venezuela and Ecuador), on which they've larded %5.5 BILLION in military aid to help with the extermination of union leaders, small peasant farmers, human rights workers and others, and as a staging area for plots against the leftist democracies. But in the south, it's now all leftist governments (Bolivia, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, Chile.) Peru, currently run by corrupt "free traders" is in the middle of it all. (It will likely go leftist in the next election cycle.)

The Bushites have supported, funded and organized--and probably armed--the rich white separatist landowners in eastern Bolivia, but have no way to get to Bolivia with overt U.S. military aid.* It is land-locked, and with Lugo now president of Paraguay, I can't imagine any of the neighboring governments lending an airport to Bushites for interference in Bolivia. But the eastern Bolivian fascist enclave also thus becomes more important to Bush Cartel planners. It is their only wedge in the southern region.

As for Venezuela and Zulia, there will be a war if Colombia/U.S. tries to take Zulia. Venezuela is not as neatly divided up between indigenous/leftists and white/fascists as Bolivia is. The Venezuela Analysis report that JohnnyCougar cites has Uribe objecting to the plan for this reason--even rightwing Venezuelans would object, and the Chavez government and the people of Venezuela would put up a ferocious fight. However, Brownfield seems to override Uribe, which fits quite well with my perception of Uribe as a "bought and paid for" Bush Cartel tool (as he was a tool of the Medellin Cartel before). He may have no say. It is clear that that was his role in their efforts to sabotage the FARC hostage negotiations that were undertaken by Chavez and several other presidents including the president of France. He was told what to do (by the Bushites), and he obeyed, even though it involved extraordinary treachery against other South American presidents and neighbors.

While the S/A political situation makes Bushite success in the Bolivia split-up more urgent, there has been strong opposition to it from other S/A countries, mostly recently Brazil. The OAS refused to participate as election observers in the white separatists' illegal referendum on secession, as did all reputable election groups. The white separatists proceeded with the referendum in spite of this, and in spite of a ruling by Bolivia's high election court that the referendum could not be held. The country's constitutional referendum (what Evo Morales was elected to do--form constitutional assemblies to re-write the constitution) was also suspended. And the latest is that Morales and his supporters readily agreed to an opposition proposal in the national legislature for a country-wide vote of confidence on Morales' government. Morales must feel pretty confident that he will win it.

Currently, I think that the Bushites will settle in for a long war of attrition. They have billions of our money, stolen from the Iraq War, Blackwater mercenaries (active in Colombia), their own "Office of Special Plans" intel and hit groups, operatives within the U.S. military (off the Pacific coast, and at bases in the Caribbean), the heinous rightwing paramilitaries of Colombia, the entire Colombian military itself and all its shiny new bullets and helicopters, and rightwing paramilitaries and USAID-funded rightwing cabals in all these countries that have oil. They also have great financial power to manipulate economies--which we have seen with hoarding-caused foot shortages (Venezuela) and a big ag strike (Argentina). And, finally, they have the corporate news monopolies, which will promulgate whatever bullshit Donald Rumsfeld tells them to.*

What they don't have is the PEOPLE of South America--who have empowered themselves with democratic institutions--and the levers of power in most of the governments of South America, which are now in leftist hands. And they are starting to lose ground in Central America. Nicaragua has gone leftist. Guatemala elected its first progressive government, ever--and it is not happy with Bushite "war on drugs" militarism. And, as Judi Lynn has alerted me, there is a very popular leftist running for president in El Salvador, who is likely to win. In Mexico, the leftist lost by a hair (0.05%) in a probable stolen election, and the left will be back.

This is a bad moment for the Bushites to implement war plans in South America. Colombia's paid agent, Mark Penn, had to be booted to the back room by the failing Clinton campaign because his presence as chief campaign advisor to Clinton gave the lie to Clinton's public stance against the Colombian "free trade" deal. Colombia has one of the worst human rights records on earth. However, Clinton would be a good bet for backing this second war oil war. But the thing is, she's losing.

I don't think Obama will go along with Bush Cartel war plans in South America. More likely he will favor a policy of peace and cooperation. But it won't be clear, until he is in office for a time, how much power the Bush Cartel will have to bully him, and what sort of minefield they have laid out for him, with their eight years in power over all U.S. agencies and the U.S. military. And there is certainly the possibility that they will steal the election from Obama, and put McToady in the White House, in which case Oil War II: South America will likely get the green light and official U.S. involvement.

I do think that some of the Corporate Rulers anyway, having milked war and torture about as far as they can go, as to war profiteering and resource theft, may favor a period of consolidating their enormous gains under the Bush Junta, and letting us work hard to gain back some financial credit for them to steal in the future. This is why they are permitting Obama to win the primary, and may permit him to win in November. War becomes bad for business after a certain point. And we're broke. Let Obama take that hit--Great Depression II; let our military rebuild itself, etc. And let us play at democracy for a while. God I'm getting cynical. But they do still hold the power to directly steal our elections with "trade secret" code in the Bushite-controlled voting machines. I'm saying I don't think they will. Does this mean that they may back off on aggression in South America? Possibly. The Bushites have wrecked the environment there, for U.S. corps. South America's on a new, democratic, progressive path. All the governments of the region (except Colombia) are strongly into Latin American self-determination. It's going to take a lot of dirty tricks and black ops, and various aggravations, to wear democracy down. It is not an easy "kill" like Iraq was.

Also, little things point this way: Exxon-Mobil lost its suit to freeze $12 billion in Venezuela's assets--and the beneficiaries were Chevron, Norways's Statoil, British BP and France's Total. It pays to be nice guys. They agreed to Venezuela's 60/40 split of the profits; Exxon-Mobil did not. A 60/40 split is far better than nothing. The lesson is if the South Americans stand their ground, they can get a better deal--and everyone benefits. Social justice ain't so bad.

----------

*Notable: In Rumsfeld's Dec '07 Washington Post op-ed, he urges "swift action" by the U.S. in support of "friends and allies" in South America. This can only mean Colombian and the fascist cabals in Bolivia, Venezuela and Ecuador (and possibly Argentina, which had a big oil find recently, and is a strong ally of the Bolivarians). And "swift action" certainly sounds like military action.

"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113001800.html

Also see

Autonomy Proposed in State Legislature of Venezuelan Oil State Zulia
May 8th 2008
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3423

U.S. is Promoting Secession in Bolivia, Repeating Venezuela Effort
May 6th 2008, by Nikolas Kozloff - CounterPunch
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3416

Leaders Warn of Autonomy Attempts in Venezuela, Ecuador
May 7th 2008, by Humberto Marquez - IPS
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/3418

[Judi Lynn]

27. Thanks for your comments, and the links. Will be watching for news on El Salvador. n/t

[bluesmail]

2. Escalating, thanks. And recommend

[Zorro]

3. Chavez is turning up the rhetoric

because he's trying to divert attention from the impending release of the Interpol investigation results.

[Andrushka]

6. It's hardly news, or new

He's hit out at the fascist Uribe's deeds many times before on the radio show. And you seem to put a great deal more faith in the miracle laptop turning up "evidence" to damn Chavez than most. No doubt you also fell for the "Saddam has WMDs" BS back in the day, too. :eyes:

[Zorro]

8. New information on FARC Support For Ecuador Presidential Campaign

<snip>

As INTERPOL completes its forensics review of the material in the FARC computers seized by Colombia in the March 1 raid that killed FARC leader Raul Reyes, officials in Ecuador and Venezuela have adopted a media strategy of continuing attacks on the government of Colombia and on the credibility of the underlying information.

Venezuelan Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro says he does not recognize documents Colombia says prove the charges and criticizes the documents as inconsistent and incomprehensible. Ecuador’s Foreign Minister Maria Isabel Salvador says that the documents found “prove nothing.”

But by now it is obvious that the documents are likely to prove a number of uncomfortable things about political reality in the Andes, including details on operational links between FARC and the governments of Ecuador and Venezuela. Already, contents of the laptops have been confirmed by third parties and by independent facts, including in countries such as Costa Rica far away from the physical lap-tops...

<snip>

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/04/new_information_on_farc_suppor.php

I think the Interpol results are going to be quite interesting, and look forward to see what they end up releasing.

[SpikeTss]

21. Wow! I'd like to visit one of these 'counterterrorism events'

If someone here feels sad or depressed, he/she should read this blog. You'll find treasures like this one:

http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/04/summary_of_april_15_panel_on_o.php

We all know some truly profound first lines, such as, from Genesis, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth,” from John, “In the beginning was the word,” and from the Dhammapada, the Buddhist scripture, “All that we are is a result of what we have thought.”

What a profound scientific panel this must be!

:rofl:

[ronnie624]

25. The founder of the blog, Andrew Cochran,

seems very cozy with a lot of Republicans, including the Reagan Administration for which he served as Special Assistant to the Deputy Secretary of Commerce.

Very interesting.

[jespwrs]

57. Here's why and how Columbia's full of it:

http://www.mediaaccuracy.org/node/56?refname=Andean%20Region&danid=25

[Judi Lynn]

58. So glad you posted this! Those names are not so shabby, are they?

Very respected people. People who can read without moving their lips!

This is a tremendous statement they have sent to the public. Thank you.

Welcome to D.U., jespwrs. :hi:

[happydreams]

10. Oh, for fuck sakes. Has Sgt. Garcia been stressing you out lately?

:eyes:

[Zorro]

13. Nope. Not stressing me out

But I suspect there's a cadre of posters here that are wetting their diapers about now.

[happyslug]

16. And when they release information the US has contacts with FARC?

I fully expect FARC to have contacts with Chavez, he is President to the Country next to theirs. I fully expect him to have contact with FARC, for the same reason. I fully expect to hear the US has contacts with FARC, for the simple reason if we do NOT the CIA are idiots (and they are NOT). When dealing with an opposition, and that is what FARC is, you have to have contact with them, or you will NEVER resolve the dispute. The Government of Columbia has had a long history dealing with FARC, sometime directly, sometimes indirectly, but contacts are kept. Why? To get an idea what FARC is up to.

During the Civil War, Lincoln kept up contacts with Jefferson Davis and the Confederacy. During WWII we kept up contacts with Japan and Germany for the same reason, at times we needed to talk even while we were fighting. The biggest problem during the 1960s was that the US did NOT have direct contract with Red China, do to stupid US internal Politics that prevented any President from recognizing Communist China,

Now the non-recognition of Red China from 1949-1977 went back to the "Who lost China?" debate in the late 1940s as Mao drove the Nationalists from China. The GOP kept asking "who lost China" demanding Truman and other Democrats heads. Eisenhower when he became President could not bring himself to recognize Red China and neither could Kennedy and Johnson. Nixon and Kissinger visited China in 1972 EVEN WHEN WE TECHNICALLY STILL DID NOT RECOGNIZE RED CHINA AS A COUNTRY. Why did Nixon go to a country we held at even worse opinion of then most people have of FARC today? Nixon wanted to move Chinese Troops from just north of North Vietnam (Where they were to help the North Vietnamese against US Air Attacks) to Manchuria to protect Manchuria from a Soviet ground attack that the Russian had been planning for about 4 years (As the Sino-Soviet alliance broke up and both countries came into conflict with each other).

This hostility to recognizing China was so bad that recognition did not take place till Carter was President (i.e. Nixon nor Ford were willing to do it). Carter said he would still defend Taiwan from any attack from Red China, but that was NOT enough for Conservatives who still, in 1977, did NOT accept the fact that China went Communist in 1949. I would go into Cuba as an even worse situation, but everyone knows we talked to Castro for years, either through the Swiss embassy or other third parties, including the UN.

My point is people talk to each other all the time. It might be to exchange prisoners, it may be to discuss massacres by one side or the other, it might be to work together against a third party (The Germans did this with the right wing opposition in Yugoslavia during WWII, even trucking the Chenicks to fight Tito's partisans). Sometime a natural disaster required both sides to lay down their arms to help people harmed by the natural disaster. There are several reasons why people will talk that are legitimate. Merely having evidence of Contact is NOT enough by itself. Details are important as are context (Food being shipped in to avoid starvation is different from Food shipped in to feed troops).

As to Interpol, I suspect anything of Importance will turn up. If Chavez wanted to rip off people, all he has to do is rip off the people of Venezuela of the oil profits the country has been getting. He does NOT need to go into the Drug Business to become a multi-millionaire, he can do so legally in Venezuela. Thus I see no reason why Chavez wants anything to do with Drugs or kidnap victims as a source of revenue. I suspect the so call contacts are his contracts with FARC to make sure they do NO illegal acts within Venezuela, nor any act that would be cause of friction between Columbia and Venezuela (or the US and Venezuela). Such Contacts are to be fully expected from someone in his place, the US would be doing the same if Mexico had a large insurgency army in control of parts of Mexico along the US borders. You have to get a feel for what are their intentions as to your owe country, and you do that by talking to them.

I know a lot of people can NOT accept the idea that you talk to your opposition, but it happens all the time in the real world. When Labor goes on strike and negotiations are not talking place, the US Government will step in and get people to talk. When Corporations sue each other, one of the Things the Judges in such cases do is get both sides to talk to each other even if that means in front of the Judge (And often demands both sides to talk to each other BEFORE any litigation is heard by the Judge). Thus in the real world people talk, and keep records of those discussions and I suspect that is all that is on that record that Columbia is making a big deal about.

[Zorro]

18. I have no problems with truths being revealed

which is why I'm interested in hearing what the reports say, although I'm not naive enough to think they'll reveal all.

What is disturbing is to see the knee-jerk denials of authenticity of the laptops. Those types of responses indicate that the posters are not seeking the truth, but are promoting a political agenda.

Let Interpol release their findings and let the chips fall where they may, I say. They may reveal all kinds of uncomfortable relationships.

I do believe that Interpol is a credible investigative agency, and that not every law enforcement organization is corrupted by politics.

[Bacchus39]

31. yes, who is talking about war? he also said a Vietnam will be in Latin America

in regard to the autonomy efforts in Bolvia

[Peace Patriot]

34. Chavez wants peace. Bush client state Colombia doesn't. War is their gravy train.

$5.5 BILLION in U.S./Bush military aid--our hard-earned tax dollars--for these fuckward fascists who slaughter union leaders, small peasant farmers, political leftists, human rights workers and journalists, chainsaw union leaders and throw their body parts into mass graves, slit children's throats because their parents are suspected of being leftists, and, mostly recently, murdered the leaders of anti-rightwing paramilitary death squad protests.

According to every human rights group on earth, the COLOMBIA MILITARY is responsible for MOST of the carnage in Colombia. They are the chief problem, not FARC.

The Bushites have stoked up this civil war--which has been going on for 40+ years--for their own nefarious purposes, by heavily arming ONE SIDE, first of all to rid Colombia of its "labor problem" (on behalf of Chiquita, Monsanto, Occidental Petroleum and future global corporate predators of the Colombian "free trade" deal--that is, to create a "free fire zone" against unions for the benefit of the super-rich), and secondly, to create a fascist/Bushite staging area for war plans against the oil-rich Andes democracies who have had the nerve to use their oil profits to benefit the poor!

The tens of thousands of workers and small peasant farmers who have fled Colombia into Venezuela can tell you more about this situation than Interpol can. They can see workers' rights, free health care, medical care, education, democracy and hope in Venezuela--and poverty, torture and death behind them in Colombia. And Venezuela now has Colombia's problem--this massive flood of refugees--as well as the constant harrying of their border with U.S. pesticide spraying and Colombian military and rightwing paramilitary death squad incursions.

Anyone who thinks that the Bush Cartel is using OUR "war on drugs" money to stop drug trafficking is very naive, indeed. The "war on drugs" is not only a failure. In Bush Cartel hands, it has been turned into a WAR FOR OIL.

Yet another war. YET ANOTHER WAR!

Can't you get that through your head? The FARC laptop so-called "evidence" is an "Office of Special Plans" creation, just like the Niger/Irag nuke forgeries and the "Curveball" WMD lies. This is being orchestrated by DONALD RUMSFELD! Their tool, Uribe, INVITED Chavez to negotiate with the FARC for hostage releases--which Chavez duly proceeded to do, because he WANTS PEACE--but this was merely a ruse to escalate his contacts with FARC, so they would have something to accuse him of being a "terrorist-lover" with. Uribe, after ASKING Chavez to negotiate hostage releases, then BOMBED the location of the first two hostages to be released, driving them back on a 20 mile hike into the jungle, back into captivity. Uribe DIDN'T WANT them to be released. He wanted to hand Chavez a diplomatic disaster, with dead hostages. That didn't work (Chavez managed to get six hostages out safely, despite their every effort to sabotage it--and before he realized what the fuck they were trying to do to him). So they went to Plan B: KILLING THE FARC HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR, by bombing his camp just inside the Ecuador border and then claiming to have "evidence" of Chavez CONTACTS with FARC.

God, these people are so treacherous! But should we be surprised? Rumsfeld. Oil. Get it?

Read Rumsfeld's first paragraph, published Dec 1, 2007--the WEEKEND that the first two hostages were to be released. Rumsfeld says that Chavez's help with hostage negotiations is "not welcome in Colombia." But it had been welcome days before. THIS was the plan. To suck Chavez in, to have Uribe then call off the release, bomb and KILL the hostages (to be described as a "crossfire" situation, as rehearsed some months before), and hand Chavez his ass. That didn't work. Chavez kept getting hostages released. They had to stop it. So they targeted and killed Reyes (and 24 others). Rafael Correa, president of Ecuador said that he had been in advanced negotiations with the FARC for release of French/Colombian citizen and former Colombian presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt in the days just before the U.S./Colombia bombing of Reyes' camp. You think the motherfucking spies in the Bush Junta didn't know this? They killed Reyes to PREVENT Betancourt's release--and any further peace negotiations--which now involved the presidents of Venezuela, Ecuador, France and Argentina--to end Colombia's civil war. A movement for peace was gathering steam. They had miscalculated the outcome of their attempted dirty trick against Chavez.

Analysis of the laptop documents clearly shows that Chavez contacts with the FARC cluster around the hostage negotiation period. Raul Reyes was FARC's ambassador to the world. He had traveled in Europe and spoken to international bodies. He was the person to talk to. And he was the one who was trying to bring the Colombian civil war to an end, with a political settlement. Everybody understood that the hostage releases were the first step toward peace. Uribe and the Bush Junta destroyed that hope, deliberately. To them, it was an out-of-control monster. As in the Sorcerer's Apprentice, the initiatives for peace that they had inadvertently triggered--when they had intended death, bloodshed, chaos and war--were escalating all over the landscape. The hostage releases that Chavez negotiated, and managed to pull off, were the first hope for peace in many years. Now others were taking up the cause. They. had. to. stop. it. And they had to try to turn it back against the peace-loving, justice-loving, democratically elected presidents of the region, Hugo Chavez and Rafael Correa. Thus, the laptop.

The question of whether the laptop is genuine--actually belonged to Reyes--is irrelevant. The Bushites have had a lot of time to mess with it, and make it say whatever they want. But that, too, is irrelevant. I don't care what it says--real or not real. What I want, and what most sane people want, is PEACE IN SOUTH AMERICA, and an end to the horrors being inflicted on people by the Bushite-controlled, murdering, drug-trafficking government of Colombia. I want the fucking Bushites OUT OF SOUTH AMERICA, and out of the U.S. government. They are war criminals. They are making MORE war. They are trying to turn the western hemisphere into a war zone. And Chavez's words to the U.N. could not be more apt--they smell of sulfur!

[L. Coyote]

4. What BS = "a leftist ally of Venezuela" It is a nation, not a leftist!

Is leftist still a code word for "shoot them dead" in South America?

[killbotfactory]

26. It is in Colombia.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/04/10/colomb18506.htm

[cal04]

5. Chavez slams Merkel's comments

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/1776063

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez almost told German Chancellor Angela Merkel to go to hell, but stopped short of insulting the woman leader on Mother's Day.

Instead he called her a political descendant of Adolf Hitler and German fascism.

"Ms Chancellor, you can go to...," he said, pausing for effect and eliciting giggles from the audience, a group of military officers, cabinet ministers and government officials. "Because she's a woman I won't say anything else."

The leftist leader, who famously called US President George Bush the devil at a United Nations assembly, slammed Merkel for calling on Latin American leaders to distance themselves from Chavez.

"She is from the German right, the same that supported Hitler, that supported fascism, that's the Chancellor of Germany today," he said.

[Zorro]

7. Sounds as if he's getting a bit unstable

Must really be worried about the impending release of the Interpol investigation results.

[bitchkitty]

12. Do you sit up at all hours waiting for a chance to slam Chavez? n/t

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davidinalameda]

9. Merkel may be a conservative

but I doubt that she's a fascist or a Nazi

nice use of hyperbole to win people to your side

[mcollier]

15. Can anybody guess which way Oil goes this week?

Hold on tight the road is about to get rough...

[davidinalameda]

22. I'm betting on $150 a gallon

[northzax]

65. and who profits?

perhaps the third largest oil company in the world, controlled by mr. Chavez? For the benefit of the people of Venezuela, of course. (all reasonable evidence to the contrary notwithstanding)

[davidinalameda]

67. who profits

I'd be hard pressed to say that the people of Venezuela benefit

how's the food shortages going down there?

[JohnnyCougar]

19. It doesn't matter what Merkel says

No one in South America is going to listen to her anyways.

[jeff30997]

20. Angela Merkel...

Each time I read her name I can't help feeling nauseated...































Because it reminds me of this:




The horror! Poor Angela.:scared:

[ronnie624]

38. It's so bizarre.

The buffoon believes he's free to put his hands all over everyone, including other national leaders. It's as if he's declaring power and ownership over those around him.

Angela Merkel's revulsion is obvious.

My disgust at U.S. broadcast media prevents me from watching much television, but I would bet that clip got little or no play in the United States.

[unkachuck]

17. K&R....

....thanks Judi Lynn....and Peace Patriot....and cal04....

....I can't think of a better source of news, commentary and perspective on what's really happening in SA than right here....

....again, please keep up the good work, for this continues to help me understand the global tentacles of the multi-headed hydra foreign policy we have as we embark upon a new war/fix to satisfy our insatiable oil addiction....

[Kaleko]

23. What unkachuck said. Big K & R

[Judi Lynn]

29. Hi, Kaleko! So glad to see you're posting here.

Welcome to D.U. :hi:

[Judi Lynn]

28. Thanks, unkachuck! Your encouragement means a great deal.

Looks as if we've got a great group of people watching the region now, doesn't it? It'll be hard for them to pull off the same garbage they did when they brought hell on earth all over Latin America totally behind Americans' backs in the 1950's and forward.

Lots more of us watching these days! :hi:

[NeedleCast]

24. Hi, My name is Hugo Chavez

Please pay attention to me. I'm relevant. Really.

[SpikeTss]

30. Sad

if someone has no arguments at all. Why do you even bother to post here?
It feels like a waste of time.

[robcon]

33. and your argument is what, SpikeTss?????

Have you no mirrors in your house? Talk about "no arguments at all"!!!!

[fascisthunter]

42. Pointing Out Your BS is a Good Thing

We all just want to see if you yourselves realize it. Just checking...

[Popol Vuh]

50. Hi, My name is NeedleCast

I really don't know anything about Latin America except that I don't like popular leaders thinking they can break free of my control over their resources.

n/t

[robcon]

32. Chavez is getting ready for another referendum on extending his rule.

This is for domestic consumption in Venezuela, in preparation for his upcoming repeat vote on changing the constitution to allow Chavez to extend his term of office.

Chavez needs to improve his popularity, and as Bush has done with the War on Terror, Chavez will create an external threat before going through with the referendum.

[LynnTheDem]

35. If Chavez gets his way, with no term limits, Venezuela would be just like

Canada & Britian!

*gasp*

[northzax]

66. really? They are switching to a parliamentary system?

interesting, I had no idea. Tell me more.

[Peace Patriot]

36. What's wrong with that--the people of Venezuela VOTING ON ending the term limit

on presidents?

If we had had the REPUBLICAN-forged term limit on the U.S. president here, FDR would not have been able to RUN FOR AND WIN four terms in office as president of the U.S. The people wanted him and needed him. They voted for him repeatedly. So what?

And the rightwing of that era called FDR as "dictator," too. Was he? Let's have your opinion on that. Does staying in office, at the will of the people, make you a "dictator"? Does political power, when a leftist holds it, automatically mean misuse of power and tyranny? And if not, then please explain HOW IT WOULD BE BAD that a leftist in Venezuela could RUN FOR office for a third or fourth term?

The truth is that the REASON the 1950s Republicans wanted to term limit the president was that they NEVER WANTED TO SEE A "NEW DEAL" IN THE UNITED STATES EVER AGAIN. It takes time for the poor to gather political power, against the entrenched power of the rich. It takes time for a good leader to act on their behalf, and create the new programs that benefit the majority, with the entrenched rich ever conspiring against them. If the rich had had their way, millions would have starved to death. We wouldn't have Social Security. We would have no labor protections. There would be no regulation of the banking system or the stock market. We would have NOTHING, and would be completely at their mercy. (We're almost back to that now!) FDR and the "New Deal" needed many terms in office to counter the entrenchment of the rich, and create a better country.

That's what Chavez has implemented in Venezuela--a "New Deal." It's no surprise that Bushites loathe him with all their black hearts, and furthermore loathe the people who elected him, and would like to carve up the leaders of their social movements, and throw their body parts into mass graves, like they do in Colombia.

You think Chavez is inventing an "external threat"? The Bush-supported fascists fucking kidnapped him and threatened his life, in 2002, and suspended the constitution, the courts, the national assembly and all civil rights. That was cooked up in Washington, DC, and you know it. So was the oil professionals' strike, aimed at crippling the country and toppling the Chavez government. So was the Bush-USAID funded recall election. This has all been supported, funded and organized by the Bush U.S.A.--an "external threat." They've furthermore larded the mindbogglingly criminal government of Colombia with $5.5 BILLION in military aid, the biggest foreign military boondoggle on earth, outside of Israel. You don't think that that is an "external threat"? You don't think that the assassination plot against Chavez, that was exposed by Colombian prosecutors, and that was cooked up in the highest echelons of the Uribe government and the Colombian military--on whom the Bushites have larded $5.5 BILLION in military aid--is an "external threat"? You think all that Bushite military aid is for drug interdiction?

Chavez doesn't have to invent "external threats"--any more than FDR did. All you have to do is look at Iraq to know what the Bushites intend. And consider the lies they told about that. Can there be any doubt what they have intended by their $5.5 BILLION in military aid to Colombia, on Venezuela's border? Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in our hemisphere, and is WASTING THE PROFITS ON THE POOR, when they could be in the pockets of Exxon-Mobil executives and their puppets in the White House. Their tool Uribe is hostile to Venezuela and its allies, and tried to create a diplomatic disaster for Chavez, with the hostage releases, and then tried to draw Venezuela into a war, by bombing Ecuador--using U.S. surveillance and ten 500 lb. U.S. "smart bombs" (and very possibly U.S. aircraft and personnel). And Uribe himself is now under investigation for his close ties to the rightwing death squads that operate freely within Colombia, killing thousands of innocent people, and engaging in major drug trafficking. Dozens of his political cohorts, including his relatives, are under investigation or in jail for these horrible activities. He is a dangerous man. He is the one who is fearmongering, trying to keep his claws on power. And, in South American terms, he is as dangerous as Bush and Cheney. He is a ruthless criminal, and he is increasingly cornered and on the outs. He has failed at all the major tasks the Bushites required of him, including the Colombian "free trade" deal, exterminating Colombian social movements, and drawing Venezuela and Ecuador into a war. And I think that the Corporate Rulers are in the process of dumping him, frankly. And that makes him even more dangerous. That makes him desperate.

This is not an "invented" threat. This is real.

[Bacchus39]

37. they just did in December, what's wrong with accepting those results?

I agree with robcon. Chavez intends to keep power.

[Peace Patriot]

39. Chavez only has the power that the people of Venezuela GIVE HIM.

And how long did the Republicans work for a limit on U.S. presidential terms, to undo the "New Deal" and prevent any more? (And did they put it to a vote of the people? Nope, they engineered it through Congress--as Bush's pal, Uribe, in Colombia, has been trying to do, to get his term limit LIFTED! Yeah, he's trying to lift term limits, too--by bribing legislators--recently exposed. Bush's pal.)

It is NORMAL POLITICAL BEHAVIOR--particularly if you lose a vote by a very small margin, as the Chavistas did on the constitutional amendments--to TRY AGAIN. It happens all the time.

"Chavez intends to keep power" implies, a) that his political power is illegitimate, and b) that he would remain in power by some sort of illegitimate or illegal means. Both of these implications fly in the face of the facts. If there is such a referendum, it will be a vote of the people--and this time without amendments attached to it, like equal rights for gays and women, which the Catholic Church opposes. Chavez has run a scrupulously lawful, beneficial government for ten years. His power is entirely legitimate, given to him by the voters of Venezuela in elections that put our own to shame for their transparency. There is absolutely no reason to predict--or sneeringly imply--that he would stay in power in any other way. And it is an insult to the people of Venezuela to imply that they are stupid sheep, and would meekly go along with such a thing.

FDR maneuvered to enhance his power and the power of the "New Deal." They called him a "dictator." Yeah, right. Legitimate political power is not tyranny--except to rightwing assholes who oppose the LEFT gaining power on behalf of the people.

I hope Chavez proposes a new vote on term limits, and I hope he wins it. I think Venezuela needs him, to consolidate the gains of the Chavez government for the people of Venezuela--gains such as their new 60/40 cut of their own oil profits, gains such as education and health care and maximum citizen participation in government and politics--and to defend these gains from Bushite war planners. But it is up to THEM. That's the part you leave out. "Chavez intends to keep power." It is not up to HIM. It is not up to ME. It is not up to YOU. And hopefully it will not be up to the Bush-USAID. It is up to the people. Let them vote again, on this issue alone. Why not?

[Bacchus39]

41. the people just told him no, and now you are saying that you hope he does it again

so could you explain how it is he could propose another referendum when the people just told him no, given your concession that it is the people who give him power.

by the way, I believe it is not permitted under the Ven. constitution for a sitting president to propose constitutional changes on something that was rejected under the same president.

maybe you could do something useful and verify that.

[ronnie624]

44. Are you making things up in an attempt to reinforce your weak arguments?

Chavez was the primary architect of the current constitution. Why would such a restriction be included?

And keep in mind that it is the first in Venezuelan history to be ratified by a popular referendum, with approval from more than 71% of the voters.

Perhaps you should verify your own claims.

[Bacchus39]

45. yeah, I know. so why is he always trying to change the Constitution??

keep in mind that Chavez's attempt for an unlimited presidency was rejected in December.

also, continue to keep in mind that this is Chavez's constitution to begin with.

[ronnie624]

46. Why have the constitutions of many other countries been changed,

including that of the U.S., without the approval of voters?

It doesn't seem so unusual to me.

[Bacchus39]

47. its not unusual to reject those changes either

haha

[ronnie624]

49. I don't get it. n/t

[Bacchus39]

51. exactly

admission is the first step in the road to recovery

[ronnie624]

54. "its not unusual to reject those changes either haha"

does not address anything in my previous post. It is merely a disjointed and bizarre comment, devoid of any meaning, as it is completely without any context. There isn't even any punctuation.

That is what I don't get.

Good day to you, Bacchus39.

[Judi Lynn]

56. Like a child babbling, interrupting, when the adults are trying to have a conversation. n/t

[Bacchus39]

59. like Chavez threatening war agaist Colombia, and Vietnam in Bolivia???

I agree.

[Judi Lynn]

60. So you'll be ignoring the fact Brazil's Lula da Silva said he won't tolerate an overthrow

of the Bolivian government by the racist assholes in Santa Cruz?

I see.

Chavez threatening war against poor little Colombia, poor sweet little sickly Uribe. Right.



How many assholes can you fit into one photo?

[Bacchus39]

61. I didn't hear Lula saying there would be 3 Vietnams in Latin America

n/t

[Judi Lynn]

62. Fascinating. Thanks for your astute input. n/t

[Zorro]

64. Heaven forbid

that the voters in Santa Cruz be allowed to express their political desires...why that would be just....undemocratic?

Nice to have the usual Stalinists line up to condemn Bolivian voters because they demonstrated the audacity to vote in their best interests.

Racist assholes, indeed. And I'm not talking about the voters in Santa Cruz.

And yeah, Chavez is a real peacemaker. Does it by threatening war against his neighbors.

[ronnie624]

68. Yes, it would be undemocratic

for a minority to deny the majority the benefit of Bolivia's natural resources. The national constitution is unequivocal on the matter. The concept is really not so difficult to understand.

Analysts agree that underlying the autonomy debate is the question of control and use of the abundant natural resources in Santa Cruz, Bolivia’s wealthiest province, which is rich in natural gas, farmland, iron ore, water and forests.

*****

The autonomy statute grants the provincial government control over areas that are the jurisdiction of the central government, according to the constitution, such as land, agriculture, animal health, forests, protected areas, the environment, biological diversity, and use of water resources.

*****

The Bolivian constitution clearly establishes state control over the country’s natural resources, referring in article 136 to the soil, the subsoil "and all of its natural riches," and the water in the country’s lakes and rivers.

The draft constitution, which is to be approved by Bolivian voters in a national referendum, defends the country’s resources, such as its vast natural gas reserves, as the property of the Bolivian people, and attempts to limit the presence of transnational corporations in this country. Article 349 says the state will administer the country’s natural resources "in the collective interest."

<http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42220>

[Peace Patriot]

69. The rich white separtists held an ILLEGAL referendum, which Bolivia's highest

electoral court forbade them to do, and the OAS and all other reputable election monitoring groups refused to have anything to do with it.

Santa Cruz can no more secede from Bolivia than California can secede from the United States, without starting a civil war. That's what they want--a civil war--and that's what the Bushites want. This is one of the situations what Donald Rumsfeld was referring to, in his Dec '07 op-ed in the Washington Post, when he urged "swift action" by the U.S. in support of "friends and allies" in South America. The Bushites are funding, organizing and probably arming these white separatists, with USAID-NED and covert budgets. The Bush/U.S. ambassador is openly supporting them--just as the Bush/U.S. ambassador supported the 2002 violent rightwing coup attempt against the Chavez government in Venezuela.

These white separatists are BAD DUDES, in cahoots with our even BADDER DUDES who slaughtered 1.2 million innocent people in Iraq to get their oil. Chaos is the Bushites' M.O. They are trying to create chaos in South America as a means of overturning the vast success of democratic, social justice, leftist governments across the landscape. The only place they can win elections is in rich white fascist enclaves like Santa Cruz, where tiny elites hole up and plot the return of U.S.-supported, fascist dictatorships in these countries.

This illegal referendum they held in Santa Cruz has similarities to the Bush/USAID-NED funded recall election against Chavez in 2004. That recall election, while technically legal, was the project of a foreign government--the U.S.--and some of its perps were prosecuted for accepting foreign money for a domestic political campaign, which is illegal in Venezuela, as it is here. Chavez won the recall with 60% of the vote. Similarly, Morales in Bolivia would likely win a nationwide vote, because he is supported by the majority of the country, which originally elected him to oversee a process of constitutional assemblies to re-write Bolivia's outdated constitution, and insure the rights of the indigenous MAJORITY of the country, who have been shat upon by the white MINORITY for so long. The Bushites are stoking this civil war, as they are stoking the civil war in Colombia, for their own purposes. It is no accident that Bolivia's main gas and oil reserves are located in the white-controlled separatist provinces. The Bushites also have a plot to split off the oil-rich state of Zulia from Venezuela. They CAN'T WIN in a democracy. Thus they concoct strategies to "divide and conquer." Their object is THE OIL and other rich resources of the Andes. They use local rich elites--as the U.S. and its corporations have always done--to steal the resources from the poor majority, and to kill, torture and suppress them. That is the atmosphere in Santa Cruz--the white man rules, and the indigenous are slaves.

But I suppose you think the Confederacy had a "right" to keep its slave economy and was being real democratic when it seceded from the United States. They just wanted their "independence," after all.

You think that's an unfair analogy? Do you know where some of these white separatists were imported to Bolivia from?

[ronnie624]

72. I always look forward to reading your commentary, Peace Patriot,

but I think our right leaning 'Democratic' friend has little use for your knowledgeable and thoughtful interpretations of current events in Latin America.

He does, after all, post links to a blog, the founder of which, likes to hobnob with and speak alongside members of the Federalist Society.

[Zorro]

76. Looking for some special attention from me again, ronnie boy?

Be careful what you wish for.

[ronnie624]

55. deleted

[Popol Vuh]

48. "Rule"?

Interesting choice of words to describe free elections. Also its interesting that you would use a Native image as your avatar.


n/t

[fascisthunter]

40. And The Egghead Neocons Chant

"...we want war, we want war.... as long as we don't have to do the fighting."

[Judi Lynn]

43. Here's an example of what has already been happening in Venezuela, at the hands of

Colombian forces. I stumbled across it in google during a search. One look at this crap will inform the thoughtful that something truly filthy has been going on at the hands of the Colombian death squads, with the aid of their military, for a very long, LONG time:

~snip~
A recent series of articles in the Caracas daily Ultimas Noticias has exposed the serious situation in Venezuela’s frontier states. On July 9, UN revealed that over 70% of businesses in Tachira state, which borders Colombia, have to pay a vacuna (“vaccine”) as protection money to Colombian paramilitary gangs.

“The crime wave in Tachira began on August 15, 2002, with the death of a police agent, Freddy Sanchez. From that moment, the spiral has been increasing, and it would appear there is no way of stopping it, at least in the short or medium term”, Ramon Buitrago, from the Popular Network for Monitoring Human Rights in Tachira state, told UN.

In 1999, there were 81 assassinations in Tachira, according to Buitrago’s group, and there were 93 in 2001. These figures increased dramatically in 2002, with 212 murders. By 2005 this figure had almost trebled to 566. “Therefore, we’re talking 2037 assassinations in the last seven years. It is clear that this figure much larger because we are only reporting those that have recorded”, said Buitrago.

Buitrago said that there was evidence of both former and active-duty police officers being involved in some of the killings. The crimes were brutal, characteristic of the paramilitaries, who always leave a personal mark to serve as a warning to the general population.

The frontier corridor between the states of Tachira, Apure, and Zulia, and the Colombian regions of Santander, Arauca and La Guajira, has always been an extremely important route for the movement of military equipment, arms, explosives, wounded combatants, and food supplies. For many years, it has also served as a route for the transport of drugs, the paper reported.

“When the Colombian government realised they had lost the battle {against left-wing Colombian guerrillas} in a very important zone, the fumigation of illegal cultivation of coca became worse. They also destroyed many other food crops that had allowed the campesinos and their communities to survive. In spite of this, {the Colombian government} did not achieve control of the territory, so they began to support paramilitary groups, such as the Auto-Defence Units of Colombia (AUC), whom they not only trained but also assisted to do the dirty work of extortion with guns”, an unnamed social investigator told UN.

Little by little, the cultivation of coca in the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta, Arauca, Casanare, Boyaca, and the north of Santander in Colombia came under the paramilitaries’ control.

After a couple of battles, the paramilitaries took almost total control of the distribution of drugs in the frontier, and began to sow terror, carrying out horrific murders in the areas of Colombia very close to Venezuela. An example is the May 1999 massacre of 40 people in La Gavarra at the hands of the AUC. Five trucks full of AUC equipment escorted by the Colombian military was installed at the paramilitaries’ military base on the banks of the river Tarra, which they announced publicly.

As a reprisal against an attack by left-wing guerrillas, and to set a precedent, the paramilitaries took 20 campesinos, cut them in half with an electric saw while they were still alive, and then killed another 20. From this date, life in the frontier zone changed forever, the July 9 UN reported.

Pablo Rodriguez, editor of San Cristobal’s La Nation, told UN: “The paramilitaries began to arrive in Tachira in 2000. Initially, they settled in Urena, then silently they expanded to San Antonio. First, they contacted the business community, from whom they extorted the vacuna, in exchange for guaranteeing their property and preventing them being robbed or assaulted.”

The paramilitaries began to kill people who had a criminal record such as drug-dealers. Bodies would appear in the streets of different cities, horribly mutilated by electric saws, with the aim of spreading terror among the population.

Six years after entering Venezuela, the paramilitaries can be found operating in almost all the municipalities of Tachira, some of Apure, and in areas of Barinas. “Nobody refuses to pay the vacuna. Everybody collaborates, because the only other option is death, simply because one is accused of supporting the {left-wing} guerrillas”, Rodriguez said.

He claimed that the Venezuelan security forces know the movement of these people and that some security officials are actively involved in these groups, but the government hadn’t done anything to stop this.

Ronald Blanco la Cruz, Tachira’s governor, says that the paramilitary presence in Venezuela is a direct consequence of the US-backed “Plan Colombia” — the military offensive against guerrilla forces in Colombia under the guise of fighting drug trafficking — and of the support that the Colombian army gives to the paramilitaries.

He also said that the “presence of the paramilitaries can be seen as {troublemaking} by a totally weak {Venezuelan} opposition, looking for support to combat the revolutionary process ...”

He accused the opposition of contracting paramilitaries to assassinate campesinos “to create terror, and an atmosphere in which there appears no government, no security, in order to play the game of US imperialism, which does not want any progressive government to exist. And they find in Colombia their best ally.”

Blanco added: “We have consistently asked the National Assembly to approve the Law of Frontiers, and the Law Against Extortion and Kidnappings, and that they modify the Penal Processing Code for the protection of witnesses. We have also asked that attention be paid to judges and prosecutors who are constantly being threatened. Right now, this is not a regional but a national problem, for the entire Venezuelan state, so they try to contain this total explosion of violence that is engulfing us.”

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2006/683/8029

[ronnie624]

52. Hopefully, we'll see an end to this sort of thing soon.

Hopefully, a Democratic administration will put an end to the proxy wars in Latin America.

[Judi Lynn]

53. Just one conscientious person thrown into the mix could work wonders, couldn't it? n/t

[killbotfactory]

63. It should be obvious to everybody by now that we want a proxy conflict between Colombia/Venezuela

Chavez started negotiated for the release of hostages, and what happens? Colombia bombs the lead negotiator, and then starts finding "contacts" between FARC and Venezeual to prove Venezuela is a "terrorist supporter" and making up absurd allegations like the claim that Chavez is helping them by uranium, ffs. Of course, in the US news media, it was Chavez who was acting provocatively because he objected to the cross border raid carried out in Ecuador which took out Raul Reyes, who is commonly referred to as leader of the "terrorist organization" FARC, and not reported that he was leading the hostage negotiations.

I don't know how you negotiate with a group without developing contacts with them, but apparently such behavior is beyond the pale and Chavez should have used telepathy when negotiating with them.

But, the damage is done, and we will soon be hearing about how Chavez sponsors terrorism and such, which will give congress an excuse to ratchet up hostilities against Venezuela.

[Peace Patriot]

70. Yup, it's the same war profiteer deja vu all over again, and in this case, it is aimed

overturning DEMOCRACY in South America!

[Peace Patriot]

71. Yup, it's the same war profiteer deja vu all over again, and in this case, it is aimed

overturning DEMOCRACY in South America!

[libertyforallmen]

73. war there could mean $1000 oil

Venezuela is rich in oil and any confrontation here would affect us at the pump. Hopefully dialogue will prevail.

[Vidar]

74. "Remember the Maine" & similar bullshit.

[Judi Lynn]

75. The old, dirty habits seem impossible to break! n/t

[Vidar]

77. Amen to that, Judi!