Who Can Afford to Eat Right? Healthy Foods Are Too Expensive for Millions, Research Shows

[RamboLiberal]

Source: ABC News

It's hard not to spend too much time at the dinner table during the holiday season, getting fatter on our way to the poor house. Though we are lectured constantly about eating right, most of us don't. And the reason, it seems, is more a matter of economics than self-indulgence.

Eating right, new research shows, is getting so expensive that millions of Americans can't afford it.

In what is believed to be the first study of its kind, researchers at the University of Washington focused on the cost of eating foods that are rich in nutrients, and low in calories, like fresh vegetables, whole grains, fish and lean meats. That's the stuff we're told we have to eat if we are going to shed a few pounds and remain healthy.

But when the researchers checked prices at numerous stores around the Seattle area, they found that the good, healthy foods had soared in price over a two-year period, jumping by nearly 20 percent compared to a 5 percent increase in the overall food price inflation. And during that same period, high-calorie foods had remained about the same price, and in some cases had actually dropped.

"We were shocked," Adam Drewnowsky, director of the Center for Public Health Nutrition at the University of Washington, said in an interview. Drewnowsky and fellow researcher Pablo Monsivais published their findings in the December issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association.



Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/DiabetesResource/story?id=4021965&page=1

---

One reason I'm pissed at this new trend of a few employers taking more money for health insurance from their employees who are overweight or have high blood pressure. They are putting these people in a vicious cycle of not being able to afford healthy food. And we've also got food programs for the poor having a supply problem of funds and food thanks to cuts and other factors.

[ixion]

1. gee, the MSM has yet another 'DUH' moment

:eyes:

[Wednesdays]

206. Not entirely...too many believe healthy foods are cheap

Even here on DU there have been plenty of condescending responses such as, "Gee, fresh fruits and vegetables are just as cheap as processed bologna."

Gee, I wonder who's really full of bologna? :eyes:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Last year, leaf lettuce was 89 cents a head

Now it is $1.29. My husband is working on a greenhouse so we can grow our own.

[silverojo]

196. The price of lettuce varies constantly

It depends on the quality of the crops. When things are going well, you can get a great head of lettuce for about $1. I remember way back in the late 1980's--during periods when crops were bad--a wilty, disgusting head of lettuce could edge toward $2. Then the crop was good, and the price would drop again. So lettuce being over $1 per head isn't a new thing. :)

[Buzz Clik]

3. Back at the height of the concern over the AIDS "epidemic", the expense of treatment was discussed..

... particularly in reference to very poor African countries ravaged by AIDS. I heard this poignant comment: "If the cure for AIDS was a glass of clean water, it would be out of reach of the majority of those inflicted with the disease."

oy.

[tridim]

4. I started making my own granola recently

Since I can't afford the prepared granola any more.

My recipe is so much better than anything I've ever tasted from the store, and it's preservative free with loads of Omega3 fatty acids.

[TheDebbieDee]

19. Your homemade granola probably has a lot less salt, too!

[RavensChick]

33. That sounds like a great idea!

I rarely eat granola like I used to. You have the recipe?

[Occulus]

72. Post it here!

Here's one from The Joy of Cooking:

GRANOLA

about 9 cups

Preheat the oven to 300 degrees F. Scatter over a large rimmed baking sheet and toast in the oven about 15 minutes, stirring frequently:

3 cups old-fashioned rolled oats

Mix in a large bowl:

1 1/2 cups wheat germ
(1/2 cup dry milk powder)
1 cup coarsely chopped almonds
1 cup shredded or flaked sweetened coconut
1/2 cup sesame seeds
1 cup hulled sunflower seeds

Heat in a small saucepan over low heat for 5 minutes:

1/2 cup vegetable oil
1/2 cup honey or maple syrup

Stir the honey into the wheat germ mixture. Combine with the toasted oats. Spread in a thin layer on the baking sheet (use 2 pans if necessary) and toast, stirring frequently, for 45 minutes, or until all the ingredients are toasted. Let cool, then store in a tightly sealed container at room temperature for up to five days or in the refrigerator for up to one month.

[RavensChick]

77. Thanks!

I'll fix it for breakfast on Christmas morning.

:D

[tridim]

78. It's based on this..

http://www.recipezaar.com/12303

I use dates and extra almonds and leave out the coconut, it's also important to toast the oatmeal and nuts beforehand. I've also used steel cut oats instead of old-fashioned and cut the corn syrup amount in half. The recipe is very flexible.

I've been making a half batch every week and eating them for breakfast. My gut loves me for it. :)

Edit: I buy all my nuts at Costco, I couldn't afford them otherwise. A huge bag of sliced almonds is $6.00 there, it's about 1/3 the price of the bags at the grocery store. Toasted almonds are good on almost everything!

[RavensChick]

80. Thank you!

Now I have 2 to work with. Thankfully I have lots of canisters to store them in. Thanks again!
:9

[defendandprotect]

316. Do you really use "margarine, brown sugar, corn syrup" . . . ????

[tridim]

326. Butter, brown sugar, honey, 1/2 the corn syrup.

Corn syrup != high fructose corn syrup

[defendandprotect]

334. Honey, good -- the rest of it doesn't sound so good.

Especially corn syrup ---

I'm vegan ---

so I applaud any veggie activities ---

[tridim]

336. I hear you. I tried the honey substitution and it didn't work

In the grand scheme of the whole recipe it's pretty minor, I bet the recipe has less sugar than most healthy cereals. I'm okay with eating sugar when it's a carrier for so much goodness.

[defendandprotect]

342. I guess we need a thread where we all pitch in with what we THINK we know about food ---

my understanding is that there is good sugar -- from an apple say or Sweet Potatoes ---
and bad sugar which is cane sugar -- processed sugars.

Now on high blood pressure medicine!!! and trying to get off ---
and have quite an addition to salt --

Evidently, the way we are supposed to get salt is via fresh vegetables -- the best source of the healthy salt.

Pretzels --- no, no.

So in looking for some info, I understand that fish oil tablets will make your blood slippery -- and that sugar makes your blood sticky.

PLUS there are all those cavities!

Think this is a good issue and we should do more on food and stuff ---

[Mountainman]

5. If you don't buy meat you can afford to eat right.

I have my asbestos suit on so flame away, but it doesn't cost as much to eat if you eat a vegetarian diet. I say that because you are going to spend money on some kind of food. So don't spend it on meat, cakes etc, milk, etc. Of course if you include those things in your food purchases it will cost more. It's all personal choice.

[RebelOne]

9. No flaming here. I'm a vegetarian.

And by not having to buy meat, I know I'm saving a bundle at the supermarket and can afford to eat healthier.

[sentelle]

17. not neccesarily

Being one that eats an organic diet, my veggies are still far more than my meat. You go to the local supermarket, you see garlic for what? 2 heads of garlic for a dollar? AND non-organic? The organic variety is $2.69 a pound? Veggies are quite expensive here, comparing it to the rest of the nation. (I live in the Seattle Area)...

Of course, it begs the question.... this is a UW study, campus being in.... Seattle? Where there is no competition. All the chains get their food from the same supplier.

Maybe thats the problem....

[joeglow3]

20. Nothing says you have to buy "fresh" produce

Studies have shown that in most cases, canned and frozen produce retains all the beneficial properties of "fresh" produce. Just don't get the kinds that are soaked in preservatives.

[Gormy Cuss]

30. Fresh produce almost always bests canned or frozen in terms of nutritional value.

The key is fresh picked, not uncooked-picked-last-month-and-shipped-across-the-country produce. Some canned or frozen vegetables and fruits actually have higher nutritional values for nutrients other than water-soluble vitamins because of the cooking process. The biggest downside to canned vegetables is the added sodium and other ingredients like sugar. Both canned and frozen vegetables can have very different textures than fresh.

[Kokonoe]

62. SSHHHH.....Hey lets keep the price down.

[sandnsea]

79. frozen yes, canned no

Frozen can be more nutritious because they have to wait until the crop is mature to pack it, when the nutritious properties are at their peak. I've never seen studies saying canned is as nutritious though, so I'm not sure where you got that.

[GirlinContempt]

161. Canned does not retain the same nutritional values.

and generally, canned foods contain high levels of sodium and sugars.

[defendandprotect]

317. No - No - No -- in fact, spina bifida and in some part Down's Syndrome . . .

are related to females not getting sufficient folate --- folic acid in its synthetic form - which comes from FRESH fruits and vegetables ---

I wouldn't take a chance with canned foods ---

[Zhade]

347. Produce those studies.

Assertions don't cut it.

[lildreamer316]

97. No, it's almost the EXACT same here, in NC.

..and we do have several local organic farmers. I would not be suprised if those prices were exactly the same, but I will check tonight.

[diane in sf]

18. I'm not a veg because I've found it's not healthy for me--but I do eat less meat

than many and the expense of organic meet is part of the reason. Though the grass fed beef from Trader Joes is pretty good and cheap.

[Skittles]

349. veg no good for me either

makes my iron so low I cannot donate blood

[Avalux]

28. I agree. Fresh fruits and veggies are cheaper if you buy local too.

I realize not everyone has the luxury, especially in the winter months. Legumes and grains aren't expensive (if not pre-packaged). I'd like to blame the lousy diets of Americans on prices, but it's more than that. A lot of healthy foods require preparation and people are too busy/lazy to spend the time. They want to purchase food that's either ready-to-eat, or requires very little preparation. And leftovers? Make a lot of one thing and eat it several times in one week. Such a thing is almost unheard of these days.

[KansDem]

29. No flame from me. It's all about priorities...

I gone mostly vegetarian in the last few years (I do enjoy a good steak now and then). But, my household has cut down considerably on the huge meals characteristic of the American midwest. We eat a lot of soy- and rice-based products and I find them tasty! And, clean-up is a lot faster (no scrubbing pots and pans to clean fat and grease!).

Here's a recipe for KansDem's famous east-Indian veggie wraps:

organic celery
organic carrots
organic bok-choy
organic mushrooms
organic unsalted peanuts
organic wraps (I like to use the sea-vegetable kind)
ginger spice
curry spice
garlic powder

Finely dice celery, carrots, bok-choy, mushrooms and place in frying pan with organic olive oil. Saute with generous amounts of ginger, curry, and garlic powder. Add peanuts. When thoroughly cooked, use a large spoon to fill center of wrap and roll up like a burrito. Mmm-mmmm...now you're eatin'!

[sandnsea]

40. Compare to burger and mac 'n cheese

Puhleeze. There isn't one meal I ever made my family of 6 that cost as much as you are describing. A lb of burger and 2 boxes of mac 'n cheese, what $4. Add a can of green beans bought on sale for 3/1.00.

[KansDem]

44. No thanks...no more fatty hamburger and cheap cheese-laden pasta for me!

I had a heart-attack in 2003. Can't afford to eat crap that'll clog my arteries (again). I'd rather eat expensive and live longer than to eat cheap and (finally) die an early death.

As I said, it's all about priorities...

[sandnsea]

46. No, it's about MONEY

The point of the article is that people can't afford to eat healthily, and you post an expensive meal that low income people can't afford to eat, and then deny that you just proved the point.

[KansDem]

53. Yeah?

I gave up cable in 1996. At the time I was paying $30 a month and it was soon to go up. That was 11 years ago, I'm sure it's gone up several times since. How much have I saved by not watching crap on the TeeVee?

I drive a 42-year-old car. Sure, I'd like to be driving a newer car, but I don't want to pay $200-$300 a month to do so. And I don't want to pay a couple of thousand to buy a used car from "Discount Credit Auto Sales." How much have I saved by driving a old clunker?

As I said, it's all about priorities. I used to sell a certain product door-to-door ( won't say what product but will say it was useful). I'd go into the home and make the pitch. The most often-heard excuse for not buying was, "Golly, Mister, we'd like to have have one of these, but it's just too awfully expensive." While the prospective customer was making these excuses, I'd be looking around at their new TeeVee, sound system, cable box (this was the mid-1980s), VHS machine, etc. I'd see a relatively new car in front of their house or apartment. And I'd say, "Yep, it's all about priorities..."

[sandnsea]

55. Oh brother

They didn't want your damn vacuum or encyclopedia or whatever over-priced piece of crap you were selling.

Relatively new car? You are't talking about poor people. You are clueless.

[KansDem]

60. Give me a break!

You want to live longer by eating healthy food? Then you cut corners...you make due. You look for ways to do so. Healthy eating becomes part of your lifestyle.

Want to die younger? Then consume fatty hamburger and crappy cheesy pasta. Don't look to change your other lifestyle choices.

Or you could wait until you have a catastrophic change in your health. Then the choice is made for you.

It's all about priorities...

[sandnsea]

65. People on $600 a month SSD

and food stamps, do not have any corners to cut. You are clueless.

[joeglow3]

66. I agree...sort of

In the course of my volunteer work, I have seen a number of people who truly could not afford it and could not work (or, work any more). However, I also saw just as many, if not more, who could afford spinners, expensive stereo's, televisions (I am 30 and have NEVER bought a television), etc.

[sandnsea]

70. They're second hand from family

Yard sales, etc. People really are clueless as to how the bottom ten percent live. I get tired of going through it every single time one of these threads pops up.

[joeglow3]

83. What is second hand from family??

Our televisions? No, we scour yard sales on the last day and have found people more than willing to give stuff away rather than either throwing it away or giving it to a charity (works with other big items like appliances and furniture).

While I am fortunate to not have been in a poverty situation, I have spent thousands of hours volunteering with organization helping out the poor. I have found that there are people who think all the poor are people who piss their money away on luxuries and others who think all the poor are just unlucky. In my experiences, there are people all over the spectrum with no clear majority fitting in one area. Mind you, this is in dealing with people that our government or society label as poor.

I have a great friend (with a wife and 4 young kids) who is dirt poor and currently living with his in-laws. We do what we can and many of us in his circle of friends have put together about $300 worth of stuff to give the for Christmas (we are doing it through an intermediary, so he does not know it is coming from us). That said, while think the world of him as a friend, the majority of their current situation is of his own doing (i.e quitting job before having another lined up, his wife quitting her job because they figured they could get government insurance not realizing only the kids would be covered, still being to buy his cigarette's, etc.)

In short, if we are only talking about the true poverty stricken, I agree with you. If we are talking about those our government labels poverty stricken, I think they are all over the spectrum.

[sandnsea]

90. Excuse me?

What is second hand from family? I don't understand. A family member gives another one their used tv or stereo. :shrug:

$300 for Christmas. That's so funny to me, a lot of these Christmas threads are. I don't think I have ever spent that much on Christmas and we've got 4 kids between us. I think a lot of people on this board look at their life, like salmon grade sushi, and then base other people's diets on that. Well you can live so much cheaper than $8 lb meat... I can hear it now. Well duh. Somebody else talking about kobe beef, lol. I will never have that in my lifetime. Then, when you try to tell people how out of touch they are, they get mad and call you envious or bitter or, lol, sanctimonious. No, just angry that other people who ARE clueless are trying to pretend they know something about poverty.

Yes, poor people often have a variety of addictive behaviors and poor decision making skills. Of course, I've also noticed wealthier people have a variety of addictive behaviors and poor decision making skills... and parents who bail them out over and over again.

[joeglow3]

96. I thought you were implying my televisions were second hand

Which they are not. $300 for Christmas is NOT coming from us. We can afford to contribute $20 (which, due to lack of money, is why we try to contribute as much time to charities as we can).

However, to give you a bit of understanding of where I am coming from, my father was ALWAYS employed as we grew up. However, we had so little money, that my mother made our clothes (the old fashioned sewing way). My dad, at 55, has an artificial knee, arthritis through all his joints to the point that doctors have put him on pain medication, and worthless shoulders. This is because he is a drywaller and worked 70 hours a week (40 at his job and 30 at any side jobs he could scrounge up - decks, roofs, etc.). He did this because he would do anything to provide for his family.

Thus, I am empathetic with people's situations. However, I have seen firsthand the sacrifices my father made to his health in order to provide for his family and I have seen firsthand MANY families who don't do near that for their current situation.

Now, I have also seen many families who, like ours, literally does everything they can for their family and are just stuck.

All I am saying is, based on my own experiences, you can't label all poor people as lazy slobs or as hardworking, unlucky people. They are all over the spectrum in great numbers.

[sandnsea]

102. I hear you correctly

I thought you were asking what's a second hand television. lol. I also understood you and your friends were all going together, and that is very nice. We had a fire just a few days before Christmas one year and the community we lived in came together and helped. It was a wonderful thing. The kids deserve to have a nice Christmas.

I know that there are all kinds of people and not everybody does every single thing they can to make ends meet. That is true. But as to stupidity, addiction, laziness, I've actually not seen more prevalent in one segment than another. The difference seems to be in who is there to bail the idiot out.

My point is not to defend people's choices - rather to say that all things being equal, healthy food is simply more expensive. It just is.

[joeglow3]

103. Thanks

I agree that knowing there is family to help you out goes a long way. My parents were fortunate enough to have made couple great investments in the last 10 years (after us kids moved out). Couple that with my dad's company giving him a desk job (thereby allowing him to also draw on his pension since he is now 55), my wife and I know if we needed it, there is SOME help if we get in a sticky situation.

Regarding the giving of gift, we agree about this kids (they are the sole reason we are doing it). That said, they should not have to be burdened with mom and dad's inability to purchase presents, which is why we are giving the gifts to the parent's through an intermediary, thereby allowing THEM to give the presents to the kids.

[Skittles]

351. isn't it something, sandnsea?

it's like they've never known any truly poor folk their entire lives - they seem so g.d. clueless

[KansDem]

71. Really? You are a family of six and live on only $600 a month?

:wow:

[sandnsea]

75. Hey, been on welfare?

Actually, I was referring to one person in that post. Do you know how much a welfare check is? Not $600.

[silverojo]

198. Agreed, but consider this....

People who've never been on a fixed govt. income ARE usually clueless when it comes to how desperate a financial situation can be.

Don't forget, that single people without dependent children CAN'T EVEN GET FOOD STAMPS. (Thank you, Bill Clinton.)

[bitchkitty]

353. Not true

I'm single and I get food stamps. I live in Oregon, but I don't think it makes any difference where you live. I believe that it's welfare and health care that are hard to get if you're single without children.

[glowing]

149. There is an inbetween, and I find a way to do it. Some things come

from the organic mart, other's local farmers market, and a few things from the regular store. I pay attention to the labels... Not everything in the supermarket is bad for you. I don't use milk except for the child and for cooking occassionally. This summer I'm growing a garden (I finally bought a house).

On the other hand, there are people who have no choice. My step-son eats well 1/2 the week and 1/2 the week he's eating french fries, hot dogs, kraft mac n' cheese, hamburger helper.. stuff that his mother can try to afford. He doesn't have his organic milk over there or org. veggies. When he gets to me, he's starving for good stuff.. goes straight to the org. applesauce or tomatos.. the hotdogs I buy are Kosher (another way to get organic, look for Kosher things).

I know this is going to sound voodoo to some.. stay away from the immuniztion shots unless your Dr. can provide documentation as to the safety in the shot he's about to give your most precious item.. when they can't you know to run.

[BronxBoy]

248. Congrats

You will be amazed at how even a small garden will supply you with food.

[143tbone]

323. You got that right!

It IS all about priorities and Americans need to reevaluate what they do with their money AND their time.

[Zhade]

348. It's the same attitude as people who can't understand why everyone doesn't drive...

...a hybrid like themselves.

Uh, because we can't afford to, you out-of-touch dipshits!

(Not aimed at you. I agree with your point only too well.)

[sentelle]

112. I understand completely

Over the period of 2 or 3 years went from a typical US bad Diet, dropped HFCS first, then went organic. When the missus and I started feeling fuller on less food, we started cutting our portion sizes.

In that time, thanks to changes in diet, and excercise, lost about 80 pounds.

That recipe sounds good actually...

One of my favorite Weekend morning foods is as such:
Take a potato and dice it (don't bother peeling it, but wash it).
Put a tablespoon of curry powder and a tablespoon of garlic powder.
Microwave it for about 5 minutes.
While that is nuking, dice an onion (or if one of those large spanish onions, half an onion)
Saute the onion until lightly browned...
Toss the potatoes in, with some hot sauce and Braggs Liquid Aminos (or soy sauce) to taste.

That, plus one egg each, and our requisite lattes, and we are both good. Between the two of us, the potatoes will last for two meals.

(On Edit)
For curry powder, you can use a Korma mix, or make your own curry.

[sandnsea]

141. A potato and egg for breakfast, whoda thunk it!!!

When you have to live on potatoes, and nothing else, come talk to me.

Requisite lattes. :eyes:

Clue-Less.

[noamnety]

233. I had a span where I lived on potatoes for lunches.

The single mom days, heh.

I'd throw a potato in my coat pocket in the morning. At lunch time, it went in the microwave at work. Then I ate it like an apple - no butter, no sour cream, no fork, etc. Just ate it.

It fills you up, it's warm, it's cheap.

It's sure not a healthy diet for three meals a day, but it's cheaper and healthier than getting fast food fries, and less work, since it's one trip to the store for the sack of spuds instead of a trip each day for fries, and either way there are no dishes to clean and no "cooking" - unless you count putting it into the microwave and taking it out.

I had a lot of boiled eggs too, so when I saw that subject line, I thought that's where the person was going with it. At the time I could get eggs for about 7 cents a piece. I'd get a carton of them and hard boil the whole thing. So I'd have an egg for breakfast (2 if I was splurging). 7 or 14 cents. A potato for lunch for about 10-15 cents. I could get through up until dinner time on a quarter. But I did have gas at home so I could boil the eggs, electricity and a fridge to keep them in, and access to a microwave at work, so there were other luxuries that made the cheap price possible. Not everyone's got those things.

I also was lucky in that I've generally lived places where I could grow or scavenge fruits, veggies or nuts, either from nut trees in public parks and woods, or berries, or renting a plot for 10 bucks for the year ... without growing and scavenging, I'd have had a much rougher time of it.

[sandnsea]

278. "it's sure not a healthy diet"

Are you being intentinally thick in the head? The point of the article is HEALTHY DIETS. Why in the world would you post your starvation diet, which validates that the goddamn article is TRUE, as an argument against the OP????

:crazy:

[noamnety]

308. I don't know why you are insulting me.

I was actually agreeing with you there - the requisite lattes were certainly not part of my diet when I really was hurting for money.

I was just telling a story. I wasn't making "an argument against the OP." In the post you're responding to, I specifically mentioned that I was "scavenging" for food, and that if I hadn't done that I'd have had a much rougher time of it. Not sure how you got from that to thinking I was arguing that healthy balanced diets are affordable. Not sure why you are attacking me for talking about my experiences trying to get by when I couldn't afford healthy food.

I do think though that less processed foods are cheaper and just as easy to prepare as more processed foods, IF you are going to go the starch and protein route. So a plain potato is probably better for you than mac and cheese, and cheaper. I don't know if an egg or two is better for you than a serving of hamburger, but I do think it's usually cheaper and more convenient, at 7 cents a serving for a boiled egg. And lentils or beans, even cheaper and better for you. Neither the potato nor the mac and cheese are going to give you what fresh veggies would provide, but within the range of starches there are good and bad choices, with the good being less processed, cheaper, and less junk added (chemicals, sodium, fats). That's all I was trying to say.

[Codeine]

310. Don't feel too special,

she's just randomly insulting everybody at this point. ;)

[Zhade]

350. No, she's not. A lot of people here just don't fucking get it.

NT!

[kestrel91316]

237. When I first got out of vet school, before I got my first paycheck,

I got down to my last $12 in the world (and no more room on the cc). I bought myself a 10 lb sack of potatoes, a 10 lb sack of Walla Walla onions, and a can of Crisco. I didn't even have a fridge. I lived on fried potatoes and onions until I got my first paycheck (that was TWO WEEKS).

I am intimately acquainted with poor and making do. I hope to never be THAT bad off again. It wasn't fun, and thank heaven it was only two weeks.

[sandnsea]

279. Gasp! Two Weeks!!!!!!!!

I have to concur with girlincontempt here, SHUT UP.

[kestrel91316]

295. You are rather presumptuous in assuming that I only had to struggle

for that two week period, and that all the rest of my life has been sunshine and roses.

I suspect I have known a great deal more hunger and financial difficulty than you, with your extremely superior attitude. It's very telling.

[KansDem]

352. Thanks for the recipe!

:hi:

And you're right; when we went organic everything tasted better. And the aroma! I'll bring home organic celery and it could be smelled throughout the whole house.

We eat smaller portions now as well. It just tastes so much better!

[silverojo]

197. True, but if you don't eat meat

Those Vitamin B12 tablets can get pretty costly. I know--I tried the whole no-meat thing, and only succeeded in giving myself a B12 deficiency.

Meat is nowhere near as expensive as junk food. Cut that crap out of your diet and you'll save a lot of money.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

199. Prescription B-12 is really cheap.

If you get a prescription for the liquid injectable from your doctor and syringes at the drugstore and inject yourself once a week. The needles are tiny.

[GirlinContempt]

315. And how much is the Drs visit?

[RebelOne]

204. Vitamin B-12 is quite inexpensive.

Check out www.puritan.com. That's where I buy mine. Right now, it's buy 2, get 1 free. Sometimes, it will be buy 1, get 3 free.

[sentelle]

212. B complex vitamins are very inexpensive

Think Whole wheat bread. Not only do you get your b complexes, but you get fiber too.

[flvegan]

211. Hmm...I've never taken a B12 supplement in my life.

My one almost daily vitamin (which everyone should take anyway) costs me maybe 10 cents.

You are right about cutting the crap to save money.

[LeftyMom]

213. Me either. Except I never remember to take my multi.

OMG we're going to die!

Oh wait, except for nasty allergies we're both perfectly healthy. :eyes:

[Codeine]

261. I just guzzle an energy drink every couple of days.

That's plenty of B vitamins, and I love the taste. Clone brand is identical to Red Bull but tastes a little better, and it's like a dollar a can.

[defendandprotect]

318. Eat natural peanut butter --- made only from peanuts . . . nothing else --- NOTHING else ....

Many of the health food stores --- and Whole Foods --- have the peanut butter machines ---
you just put your little container under the spiget and out comes peanut butter ---
they also have almond ---

and sadly, they also have some they are adding sugar to ---

[Zhade]

346. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, that was comical.

[HughBeaumont]

6. I'm looking into hydroponic kitchens or like a mini-greenhouse.

It may pay for itself in a couple of years if this keeps up.

[tridim]

95. Just don't buy that one they're selling on TV now..

It's crappy and much too expensive.

IMO it's easier to grow herbs in compost, but if I ever wanted to go hydroponic I'd just use a small plastic tub and an aquarium pump (about $20.00 in total). My farmer friends have taught me a lot! ;)

[sandnsea]

111. tell me more

I'd love to have fresh tomatoes all year. One of my favorite things. Can I do hydroponic in the garage??

[tridim]

114. Yes, but if you grow veggies you're going to have to invest in a good light

You won't get good results with fluorescents.

Search for "400 watt hydro", and ignore what the people are growing on the sites you see. Everything works the same for tomatoes. Also visit your local hydroponics shop, they'll be able to show you some nice products. Just read a lot and you'll learn how to do DIY hydro on the cheap. You can even do it outside if it's warm enough.

[sandnsea]

116. aaaah,

uhm, er, I think all I need to do is ask my husband. I just never thought of applying old skills (very old) to current needs, if you get my drift. lol. thanks!

[sentelle]

139. if you are going to grow tomatoes

You are going to need some heat. Out in the seattle area, we don't get enough light or warm temps for good tomatoes. Sure, cherries, and grape tomatoes, and the occasional stupice's (golf ball sized) but anything beyond a 50-55 day growing time gets pelted by Seattle's 'liquid sunshine' they also need space.

[MadHound]

7. One more reason that I garden

I can take much of the produce costs out of my budget since I grow and store most of my own veggies. Yes, I pay in sweat equity, but not only do I have plenty of that to spend, gardening is relaxing in its own way.

[pokercat999]

59. and great exercise to boot!

[143tbone]

328. Gardening is my way of balancing my life, otherwise I would go mad.

The pain of politics, of the constant fight to save our country is so incredibly draining that without gardening I would surely have suffered some kind of breakdown. I am also so incredibly fortunate to have a garden and I just wish I could be more effective in finding those in my area that would benefit from the produce that I grow.

[balantz]

8. Me and my little one live under the poverty bar

and I try to feed us organic and such and it's hard to pay for it. We do a lot of tofu for protein, but the non-genetically modified is more expensive so we eat "organic, but genetically modified" tofu. Gotta wonder about the labels.

[MadHound]

10. Do you grow a garden?

If not, I really think you should consider it. The food is cheap and tasty, and you can either freeze, can or dry for storage.

[balantz]

12. I have been considering that in this small yard, though greens is only part of the food equation

[MadHound]

24. You can grow much more than greens

I've grown wheat, rye, and soybeans in my garden before. Granted, I have a much larger area for growing now, but still and all it is amazing what you can grow in a small space with a little planning.

[BronxBoy]

34. A Book Recomendation

Square Foot Gardening

You'd be surprised at what you can grow in even the smallest of spaces.

[momster]

152. 2nd Square Foot Gardening

Excellent book.

I also recommend chicken wire over the soil....keeps the kitties out.

[143tbone]

329. Solomon now refutes the value of intensive gardening in his book:

Gardening When It Counts: Growing Food in Hard Times by Steve Solomon

[NickB79]

355. Hey, I'm reading that book right now!

Not as many pictures and diagrams to help you build the perfect garden, but a lot of good, common-sense information so far :)

[NickB79]

356. Another good one is Lasagna Gardening

Sheet (lasagna) composting rocks!

[knitter4democracy]

85. Even small spaces work well.

I was surprised at how much food we got out of our small garden plots and from within the front plantings by the front door.

Herbs are great--adding those can cut down salt and make bland food taste good. Fresh herbs are too expensive at the store but cheap to grow.

Tomatoes are easy to can and not impossible to grow. We had a lot of fun with those this summer, even though my tomato crop didn't grow well compared to normal.

Green beans are the easiest, I think--if you can keep the kids from eating them all. And the bush varieties look nice, too. :)

[BronxBoy]

108. You're right

Just takes a little creativity.

And a lot a veggies are so easy, it would be very hard to not grow them successfully

[Xithras]

134. My grandmother had a coffee-can garden for many years.

She refused to spend perfectly good money on planters when she had coffee cans around. She grew tomatoes, beans, carrots, strawberries, and all sorts of other things in those cans...she just lined them up along the fence in her small apartment patio. She really expanded when she found one of those small hard plastic kiddie-pools in the apartments dumpster one day. Someone had thrown it away because it had a small crack in the bottom, but she dragged it home, had me dump 6" of dirt in the bottom of it, and she used it as her main garden for many years. She grew everything from lettuce to asparagus and broccoli in that thing. Her garden wasn't much to look at...an old dirt filled kiddie pool surrounded by coffee cans, but it produced a huge amount of food and was quite an impressive feat for an apartment that included zero square feet of exposed soil.

The really awesome thing was the community it spawned. She always ended up growing more food than she could possibly eat, and was constantly giving it away to her neighbors (who were also barely scraping by on SSI checks). Her garden inspired her neighbors to plant gardens as well, and within a few years they had an impressive food swap network up and running. They all gave each other food, and it improved everyones lives. She even convinced the apartment complex management to swap out a few of their landscape trees for fruit trees. They were coming down anyway and the price was the same, so to this day her old apartment complex has a bunch of apple, orange, pear, and cherry trees surrounding a central courtyard that was originally planted with mulberry and pine trees.

[BronxBoy]

37. I think you also point to another important issue

People have forgotten how to cook. I asked a couple of food banks that we collected for this year if they would be interested is accepting some surplus produce from our market this year and the response was tepid at best.

One of the reasons was perfectly understandabe: That they nor some of the clients they service had the facilities to keep perishable foods.

But another reason that I heard was that a lot of people do not know how to prepare and cook fresh foods. I heard it on several occaisions from people who are very passionate about helping their clientèle.

[knitter4democracy]

86. Many do but don't have the facilities to cook.

In Nickel and Dimed, Ehrenreich talks about those old motels that are now where a lot of the working poor live. Most don't have kitchens, and often, they don't allow hot plates. Hard to cook without anywhere to cook. :(

[BronxBoy]

107. Yes

One director did specifically mention the motel issue and lack of cooking facilities.

Thanks for bringing that up

[sentelle]

21. Tofu, Soymilk and Soy beans.

Tofu is not that hard to make. Neither is Soy milk (assuming you have a blender)
Take soybeans (soaked overnight), grind them with the blender and some water.
A cup of soybean and 6 cups of water will make soy milk. Strain with cheese cloth. take the mixture and heat to 150degrees or so. (this takes away some of the beaniness to it).
So far, costs are minimal.... (organic Soybeans are like $1.05 at my local Whole Foods, in Seattle)

The stuff caught in the cheesecloth can be eaten, BTW, and is commonly used as food by Buddhist monks. Its called 'okara'

To make Tofu, Make 4 batches of soymilk above, put into a large bowl.... make a mixture of 1 cup water and 1 tablespoon nigari. You can find nigari though mail and Internet sources for about $5.00 a pound, but that goes a long way. When you add the nigari to the soymilk, the soymilk will curdle.... after it gets thick, put it in cheesecloth covered strainer, to remove the soy-whey. let sit a while... tada, tofu...

FYI, Nigari is generally natural. when you take sea water, and dry it, the first compound to crystalise is sodium cloride (table salt).... everything left over is nigari.

Avoid straining in aluminum strainers though, as there is a linkage to tofu that has been strained in aluminum and alzheimers (per the Honalulu study)...

[musiclawyer]

11. Yes, another "duh" moment

I eat well. I can afford it, and thus rarely get sick. But, after throwing in some wine and specialty stuff, we're talking well over a hundered dollars for one person just for a few a few weeks when you add up all the receipts. Good olive oil, sprouted grain breads, Real wild fish, and real organic frutis, vegetables and meats are pricey. (They are pricey even if not organic). The food industry in this county is broken.

[spinbaby]

13. Tell me about it

We're trying to get my father in-law to eat better, but it's an uphill battle because he can't understand why he should buy fresh fruit when Aldi's has these great fruit-flilled cookies for less money. As far as he's concerned, it's all fruit and the cookies taste better.

[Stuart G]

15. I did cookies for a long time

..and fresh fruit taste better..It just takes some getting used to..
Refined sugar products are much stronger, and starker..But the fresh stuff...well you got to be off of the refined to appreciate the fresh.........Stuart.

[sentelle]

27. Easy.... Look at the label and point.....

at the high fructose Corn syrup.....
Its something this is likely killing him.

Some links that pertain to it.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/high-fructose-corn-syrup/AN01588
http://www.lewrockwell.com/alston/alston13.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/18/FDGS24VKMH1.DTL

From that last link:
"Loading high fructose corn syrup into increasingly larger portions of soda and processed food has packed more calories into us and more money into food processing companies, say nutritionists and food activists. But some health experts argue that the issue is bigger than mere calories. The theory goes like this: The body processes the fructose in high fructose corn syrup differently than it does old-fashioned cane or beet sugar, which in turn alters the way metabolic-regulating hormones function. It also forces the liver to kick more fat out into the bloodstream.

The end result is that our bodies are essentially tricked into wanting to eat more and at the same time, we are storing more fat. "

More fat means bigger chances of diabetes, high cholesterol, and heart disease.

And just think, we are subsidizing this stuff....

[hatrack]

123. BTW, ever try to go to the grocery store and NOT buy HFCS?

The Goddamned stuff is in EVERYTHING. Even "Earth Grains" bread - their freakin' whole wheat puff-priced $3.65 bread has HFCS. That garbage is everywhere.

[sentelle]

215. if you cannot find stuff without HFCS....

Go to a better supermarket.....

Or perhaps that is the point. Foods without HFCS are being priced out of the market, due to politics, and not the free-market.

I have a Soda manufacturer across the street from my office, who has made the jump from HFCS back to Sugar on some of their sodas. (Jones Soda, if anyone cares), and the feedback seems to be so positive that they plan on moving more of their product to sugar. (not that I drink soda or anything)

The problem is that too few stores give their customers a choice.

[Codeine]

263. It's not the stores.

We can only sell what the suppliers supply and manufacturers produce. And quite frankly, 99+% of consumers don't give a rat's ass about corn syrup. We sell pallets and pallets of Coke and Pepsi every week, and maybe a sixpack a month of Jones.

[Tumbulu]

14. The cost of growing good organic whole food is rising dramatically

The good whole foods grown organically are not cheap. The farmers are making modest incomes around my parts.

Industrialized dead food is quite cheap at the register, that is.

Take a look at the people who shop at places that sell healthy food. They pay a lot and buy small amounts and guess what- you see very few overweight people there. I know many people whose health insurance consists of eating healthy food. They made a choice as they could afford one or the other.

Then you go to a regular store that sells the cheap at the register industrial food. It is not cheap at all as it is low in nutrients and high in toxins. Look at the average weight of a person there.

I think that the body calls out in hunger when it gets too few nutrients, thus causing a person to eat and eat, a viscous cycle.

If you grow your own food you soon find out that it takes a lot of work and costs good money as well. But it is well worth it.

There really is no such thing as a free lunch.

[musiclawyer]

16. Funny cause my friend was in Trader Joe the other day

and noticed how most people were fairly lean compared to the regular store she just visited. (This is not a total endorsement of TJs btw. I think they can do a lot better importing and health-wise). But her perception was accurate.

[balantz]

22. People who care about what goes into their bodies pay attention to fitness.

[RavensChick]

35. Trader Joes is a good alternative

but if you have the money and the nearest one you can get to. There are only 2 in the DC area I can get to but since I work during the week I can only get there on Saturdays.

[sentelle]

25. Thats OK, I wont touch nonorganics

I don't need Roundup in my system, or any of 40 other poisons in my diet. Yes, Many of the GMO Crops are called 'Roundup ready', thats because they can withstand a regular hit of full strength Roundup on a regular basis.... and since it doesn't wash off...

Yes, Round up, the weed killer. I believe its a poison. They are breeding plants that can withstand poison, and since it doesn't wash off, we are also eating that poison.

Last I checked, poison was not part of the Food Pyramid.

[kestrel91316]

23. Now I'm REALLY gonna have to cut back on the fast food lunches.

Which is probably a good idea.........

If the food dollars don't go as far, well, I could STAND to lose a few pounds anyway. I'm gonna cut back on the fats before the fruits and veggies.

[AngryAmish]

26. As long as soylent green is reasonably priced...

[orion9941]

31. I could have told you that!

Several years ago my partner and I had suffered several financial problems that left us VERY poor! We had a grocery store and a fast food restaurant within walking distance of each other. We found out that over a period of a week that we could feed ourselves better off the dollar menu with $20 bucks at the fast food restaurant than we could with $20 at the grocery store.

Luckily we've recovered and are back on our feet, but I can tell you from first hand experience that it is REALLY hard to feed yourself healthy food when you are poor. It can be done, but you won't be able to buy as much fresh and healthy stuff as you can canned and crappy stuff.

[BronxBoy]

32. I'd really like to see more details about this study...

I don't disagree with the fact that fresh foods are more expensive but $20 a pound for salmon? Not in any supermarket around me. $7-8 bucks a pound around me on average.

Like Madhound I grow most of my own food which I can or otherwise preserve. Factory farming is just that: the operation has been organized so that it is produced at the lowest possible price with the lowest possible handling costs and with the longest shelf life available. Taste and nutrition really doesn't play a big factor in the equation.

Unfortunately, I think our society has become so entrenched in this model of food production that I don't know what it will take to reverse the trend. I manage our local farmers market at which I also sell produce. It has been like pulling teeth to find small organic and naturally sustainable growers in our area. Why? Development eaten up more and more of the local farmland making the pool of available farmers smaller and further away from our population centers that want their goods.

Trust me, people do want quality produce and areeven willing to pay a premium to get it. But I think the food production model is so broken that at times it seems like it will be impossible to fix.

[sentelle]

118. I'll assume you are on the east coast

The only thing I'll say about that $8.00/lb salmon is "toss it back"... the fact that you are not telling us what kind of salmon tells me that its atlantic, which means its farmed, which means its flavorless, has been fed dyes to give the flesh color, and antibiotics (and who knows what that is doing to you). I grew up in NYC so I understand

I can occasionally get $8-10/pound wild Sockeyes and Cohos locally in this area (Seattle metro), and we never waste a bit.

[BronxBoy]

260. Georgia....

And I have no idea what kind of Salmon it is. And you are probably right...

We used to be on Long Island so Fall fishing was how I used my vacation time. MMM Porgies & Stripers! Blackfish & Blues! Filled up the freezer for the year in a week.

I don't understand why stores don't feature the local products

[IronLionZion]

36. There are farmers markets everywhere

find them, use them, they are wicked awesome.

I got a bushel of fresh persimmons for $5 from the Hmong farmers market in St. Paul, MN. The grocery store sells them for $1 each. I'm sure some schmuck somewhere is buying those expensive persimmons and probably complaining about the price. I got a bushel of apples for $1.

You can get all sorts of good produce and even other stuff. I got a very nice hand-made knit cap for $5. I've had it for like 6 winters and it's in great shape. You can tell it's of much better quality than the ones they sell at Target and Wally world.

They are usually locally grown stuff. Some are organic. Hope this helps.

[BronxBoy]

43. Not really

I wish what you were saying were true but it really depends on what area you live in.

I was speaking with a member of Georgia Organics which is a non-profit organization which promotes organic farming and buy local programs in the state. I don't remember the exact number of official number of farmers markets in the state but it is less than 10 according to them. And as I said earlier, finding farmers and growers to participate in those markets is a challenge.

That's why I feel a big part of the problem is structural in nature

[IronLionZion]

47. I just googled farmers markets in Georgia

http://www.pickyourown.org/GAfarmersmarkets.htm

http://www.n-georgia.com/farmers_markets.htm

http://agr.georgia.gov/00/article/0,2086,38902732_0_40928014,00.html

There are many more which are not listed and can be known about through word of mouth.

[BronxBoy]

52. Don't want to argue with you my friend

But I'm involved in this for a living in this State. There are not tons of markets around.

Take our market for instance. Before we joined our market, it consisted of 2 vendors; An older couple who just resold stuff and a lady who sold honey, who is still with us.

That is not a Farmers Market although it was listed as one in probably some of the links you provided. I know the city next to us tried to open a farmers market last year and just couldn't find the growers. Our operation and another one form the backbone of our market. If something were to happen and neither of us could participate, our market might die. Most of the vendors are part-timers who are looking to sell some of their home produce on the side.

I'm only being picky about this because saying there are lots around when there really aren't on some place sort of muddies the waters.

[IronLionZion]

81. Ok good buddy, I hope you find something that works for you.

:hi:

[BronxBoy]

106. Hope I didn't Come Off As A Prick

It's just that I know some people will always lay the nutrition issue at the feet of poor folks and say there are plenty of places where fresh food is available and that it's their fault they aren't eating right.

I know that you were definitely NOT saying that though.

But other than the supermarket, a lot of people have little recourse to purchase fresh food.

Our market while small is doing well. If you are ever in these parts stop by and I'll give you some maters that will blow your mind

:toast:

[IronLionZion]

151. no problem bro

I'd love to stop by next time I'm in GA. cheers mate :toast:

[kineneb]

68. agreed, and I live in an ag area

but... this being foothills California, the growing season is short. Also, the local farmers' markets are seasonal (see above), and the largest is 25 miles/30 min away. Not a good investment of my gas money. I have several small raised vegetable beds, and have started planting fruit trees.

[kestrel91316]

238. Look into Eliot Coleman's Four Season Garden (book). He does

something with hoop houses that extends growing/harvert to year round. CA is ideal for this.

[pipoman]

143. I have bought produce at that ginormous market

south of Atlanta. If I lived within 100 miles of that market I would go there often and stock up.

[Habibi]

45. Oh, gosh! The St. Paul farmer's market!

I lived there for ten years and *lurved* the SP farmer's market.

We have a pretty good "public market" here in Rochester, NY, but many of the vendors are just small-time distributors, not local farmers themselves. Of course, there are more local farmers there in the warm season. And in any case, the produce is cheaper than at the grocery stores. It's too bad it's only open a couple of days a week.

[IronLionZion]

50. Oh, I know the Rochester NY public market

I got some good stuff from there. I think a lot of it gets sold off pretty early in the day. When I was living there like 3-4 years ago the best day to go was early on Saturday morning. Even the fish was affordable. We got some sushi-grade salmon and made home made sushi that didn't kill anyone. And the sweet potato pies were scrumptious!

[Retrograde]

122. but not all the time

my local farmers market had it's last session last week, and won't be back until May. Sniff.

It's prices were about the same as the local groceries, but the variety was a lot better.

A bushel of apples of $1? I can't get them here in California at that price, even up in apple country. The best I've seen is about $20 a bushel - and that's buying directly from the farmer. You can't pay me enough to take the persimmons, though :-)

[IronLionZion]

150. Um, not a measured bushel, just a grocery bag full of them nt

[sugapablo]

38. Sorry, no freakin' way!

I rarely go off on here, but this is BS!

You can eat healthy on the cheap, MUCH cheaper than eating crap, if you eat whole foods. Packaged and processed "healthy food" options ARE more expensive than Hamburger Helper et al., but that's besides the point.

Eggs, Milk, Butter. Organic is more expensive, yes, but all "health problems" with non-organic are theoretical at this point. (I eat 90% organic, but I have the luxury of being well off.)

Brown rice, whole oats, barley, etc. VERY cheap by the sack or bulk.

Dry legumes: also VERY cheap by the pound.

If you're a meat eater (I'm veggie), any reputable butcher/fishmonger has cheaper cuts of meat, packed with the same nutrition and protein, that he will set aside for the asking for lower income individuals. As your grandparents, they'll tell you. This is a time honored tradition. Any metropolitan area will have several butchers to choose from.

Veggies: Buying seasonal will equal buying inexpensive. Farmer's markets are the best place to find value.

Fats: EVOO is expensive, but there are other fats, just as healthy that are nominally more expensive than Crisco. SHop around, buy what's on sale.

Baby food: Breast milk is free and healthiest (if no problems prevent it) and the healthiest baby food is homemade. Steam sweet potatoes, carrots, peas, etc, put in blender, and fill an ice cube tray for individual, frozen servings. Easy, cheap, nutritious.

With a little effort and BASIC cooking skills, one can eat VERY healthy on the cheap. I've had to do it and I could always do it, no matter how minuscule my budget was.

And yes, dry beans and rice will take longer to cook than canned or frozen dinners, but with the slight investment of a Crock Pot (which you COULD find free on Freecycle), any family with working parents can have hot, healthy, cheap, and awesomely good meals waiting for them at home for dinner.

Ok, sorry. </rant>

[sandnsea]

49. cheaper cuts of meat = fat

Can't eat them. I paid $8.00 for a friggin' chicken the other day. Yes, if you eat celery, carrots, rice and beans, you can survive. Add just about anything else to your shopping list, and the price is going to go up quickly.

No, not hamburger helper. 50 cent spaghetti noodles, 89 cent hunts spaghetti sauce, hamburger. That's a huge dinner for $4. And yes you serve various bean and rice based meals when you are living like that too.

[sugapablo]

54. Fat != bad

Can't eat what?

There is a big problem with understanding of nutrition. Fats are healthy for you. Too much fat is bad, but you need AT LEAST 20% of your calories to come from fat to maintain optimum health. Fatty cuts of meat, served in the proper portions (about the size of a deck of cards) are PERFECTLY fine in terms of nutrition.

And for $4? I could make many a large meal, more nutritious than what you mentioned.

(less than $4 for a family of 4):
Seasonal cabbage, beef, stir fried with ginger, served over rice w/tea .
Mujadarra with loobee (middle eastern fare)
Indian dal with homemade Nan bread or rice
red beans and rice (vegetarian or with beef/pork)
homemage chili
beef/chicken/pork fajitas with homemade tortillas

Also, if you ditch the hamburger, you can make a fresh tomato sauce (in season) with a little oil, oregano (that you can grow on your window sill) and season veggies and make a healthier pasta for $4 as well.

So you see, with a little car and planning, you can not only eat healthier on the cheap, but better too.

I've helped many a poor friend out by teaching them some mealtime cooking and shopping basics. (Cause I"m kinda a health nut whose been poor.)

[sandnsea]

56. Fatty cuts of meat are never acceptable

But I see you are just making it up as you go. You cannot make a healthy vegetarian based sauce from scratch for less than 89 cents, or even 2.89. A pount of tomatoes costs that much. I really don't know why people won't accept how expensive fresh produce really is. Yes people can survive on beans and rice, and not be fat. But they won't be healthy either.

[sugapablo]

61. Why?

Why are "Fatty cuts of meat [] never acceptable"? Kobe beef (the most expensive and sought after in the world) is the fattiest cut in existence.

As for tomatoes, yes, they've gone up in price, but how many tomatoes do you think it takes? Too many people DROWN their pasta in sauce, when it's supposed to be portioned lightly so one can taste the pasta. Two tomatoes is all that's required for a sauce for 4 people.

Hell, if you make your pasta from scratch...it gets even cheaper. Healthier too, if you use whole wheat flour.

Yes the sauce will cost more than 89 cents, which is why i said to ditch the hamburger. Boxed pasta for 4 < $1 if you buy cheap, leaving you $3 for tomatoes, oil (4 tsp's works out pretty cheap of regular (non extra virgin) oil), fresh herbs from your window, and a veggie. Easy to do when again, tomatoes are in season.

[sandnsea]

63. tomatoes and noodles, nutritious

right. :eyes:

good bye

[sugapablo]

69. Dude....

Why are you acting like an ass? You can't debate issues without attitude?

Fresh tomatoes, pasta, olive oil, fresh garlic (one clove off the head is nominal in price), season vegetables is MUCH more nutritious than pasta, hunts canned sauce, and hamburger.

If broccoli is in season, you can get a large bunch for < $1. Hell, I've gotten enough broccoli for 4 in season ORGANIC for that much.

Which would you rather feed to your child?

[sandnsea]

74. Tomatoes and noodles is not nutritious

And I am sick to death of people who pop off with a ten dollar meal and think they know something about poverty. You damn right I'm going to have attitude. Broccoli isn't always IN season. People can't work 2 jobs, shuffle their kids around, monitor homework, clean, and grow a pretty little herb garden in the window sill. Olive oil is $5.00 for a small bottle. I could never remotely afford it until all my kids left home. Noodles and tomatoes for athletic teen-agers, yeah right. God. Yes. Attitude. For every working mom who has to try to keep it all together and then take shit from people like you.

[sugapablo]

82. sanctimonious

You think you're the only one who's been down? My family had been so poor at times they could only live in illegal spaces (without windows) because they couldn't afford a decent apartment. My wife's mother was a welfare mother with two kids after her father left them high and dry.

A PINT of olive oil is around $7. No, not EVOO, but pure olive oil, such as Pompeian brand. Won't be good for salad dressing, granted, but good for cooking. So if you use 2 tablespoons in a sauce (more than enough for 4 people), that's about $0.42. My suggestion for the sauce was 4 teaspoons, which is 1.333 tablespoons, so even less...around $0.30.

No, broccoli is not always in season, but SOME veggie is always in season. Broccoli was just one example. I'm sorry I didn't realize I had to spell it out for you.

You were the one who mentioned pasta, hunts sauce, and hamburger. NOT good for athletic teenagers. If they're doing a cardio based sport (soccer, track, etc.) my pasta, served with a glass of milk, would be MUCH better for them than your pasta dish. If they're trying to gain weight for football, powerlifting, etc., than no, they'd need something they probably couldn't afford if they're that bad off. I know I've been bulking for two years and THAT IS expensive. Not something for the poor.

People CAN work 2 jobs and plan the rest. I work 3 jobs. That's right, 3 jobs. It's hard as hell, but I still do all the shopping, meal planning, cooking, taking care of my kid with school (have one, 2nd on the way) AND find time to take care of my other, older family members who aren't getting a long so well. Luckily, this is all paying off and we're finally making money. But my ass works all day, every day. It's a wonder I sleep.

I do it, my parents did it, my wife's mom did it. My grandparents did more. We ALL do it. We do what we have to. Complaining and bitching and throwing attitude around (which you seem proud of) does NOBODY any good.

You disagree with me? Fine! Many people do! But to get all sanctimonious like this is just ridiculous. Shit from people like me? Yeah, real shitty to offer suggestions culled from personal experience. Real shitty!

So have all the attitude you want. I hope your children didn't have to suffer too often because of it.

[sandnsea]

84. Organic dairy? $7 olive oil?

No. Your wife's mother did not buy this on welfare. Sorry. You're making it up. And there is no way two tomatoes and a pile of pasta, even with a side of carrots, is nutritious. It'll keep someone from starving, but it is no more nutritious (or filling), then the noodles, sauce and meat. You thought you could pop off with YOUR sanctimonious bullshit and not get called on it. Too bad for you.

[sugapablo]

91. When...

..did I say organic dairy? I said organic milk WASN'T an option.

$7 olive oil something I'm making up? Hell, google before you speak.

http://www.hometownfavorites.com/products.asp?dept=1033&number=HFST169

(Excuse me, in the 4 seconds I spent searching, I found a brand for $7.09, not $7.00.)

Hell, check this out, this even suprised me. A pint of Extra Virgin for less than $6:

http://www.iherb.com/productdetails.aspx?c=1&pid=1725331068589277262&utm_source=gb&utm_medium=pf



What sanctimonious bullshit? Again, he's me trying to give helpful tips culled from personal experience, and here's you getting offended. I can't imagine why? Is this some sort of guilt? Are you fearing that perhaps you weren't a good enough mother if you accept my points as valid which is why you're becoming so aggressively defensive?

Again, what was so bad about what I was saying to upset you so much? You don't like the food choices? Fine, don't eat them. If you want to debate nutrition, I'm happy to do so...respectfully. I've been studying nutrition for years now. I'm willing to explain ALL my reasoning to you, broken down in both macro and micronutrients.

Pasta wouldn't even be one of my choices, but I was trying to make a dish for you comparable to your example. YOUR example. I prefer whole grains such as the ones I listed (rice, oats, barley). Very cheap, very nutritious, very easy to prepare.

And again, fat is GOOD for you in proper amounts, around 20-30% of your daily intake. Fatty cuts of meat sometimes contain more nutrition than lean cuts.

"Dark meats tend to contain more zinc, riboflavin, niacin, thiamin, vitamins B6 and B12, amino acids, iron than white meat. Dark beef meat contains about 11 times more zinc than tuna, and about 3 times as much iron than raw spinach. Chicken dark meat contain vitamins A, K, B6, B12, niacin, folate, pantothenic acid, minerals as selenium, phosphorus and zinc.

"Even the fats in most of the dark meats have healthy parts. They contain Omega-3, and Omega-6 fatty acids, and other ‘healthy’ fats."

Source: http://www.diet-blog.com/archives/2007/10/08/dark_meat_vs_white_meat_whats_the_difference.php

But I'm just spouting bullshit and you don't want to hear any of it, right? No matter what points I may bring to the table (no pun intended).

[sandnsea]

98. I pay $5, it's TOO MUCH

No low income parent is buying olive oil. It's too expensive. I thought you did say organic in your first post.

Fats are good for you, fats in nuts and olive oil which are both expensive. Not fats in meats. Dieticians recommend chicken breasts. Now you want to come along and say to eat the dark meat, just because you say so. Today. In order to beat up poor people. Yes, I call that spouting bullshit.

So we're back to the starvation diet of rice and beans and a tomato or two. :crazy:

If you were EVER poor, you wouldn't do this. Poor people just know better. Except the ones who want to avoid those feelings of obligation, they usually dump on the poor so they won't have to share the fruits of their success, that they achieved all by themselves don't ya know.

[kestrel91316]

242. Here's one of my favorite cookbooks:

You can get a copy of Laurel's Kitchen used on Amazon for under $3:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/089815166X/ref=dp_olp_1/002-9239379-5640063

Disclaimer: I AM NOT A VEGETARIAN. But this cookbook has helped me a lot because meat is simply too expensive for me to justify buying much on my budget.

You'll never knock "noodles and tomatoes" again.

Oh, and it's properly called Macaroni and Tomatoes in my home: no recipe needed. Cook up 1 lb of elbow macaroni. Add a big can of tomatoes (drained). Season liberally with pepper and whatever. Sticks to the ribs. Serve on the side of whatever else you are having. My personal recommendation is a spinach salad with a hard-boiled egg. For balance.

I don't wanna see any beans and rice being knocked, either. We ate it often at the end of the month when I was growing up.

Also: polenta (aka cornmeal mush) is GREAT eating. Google it. Poor Italians in the war lived on it, with homemade tomato sauce. I happen to like it panfried with my homemade el cheapo fake maple syrup.

Get a copy of this, too:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/083619263X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198192315&sr=1-1
You can't have mine, lol, dog-eared and torn as it is.......

[Name removed]

282. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kestrel91316]

290. I just happened to be trying to be helpful. You OBVIOUSLY

are complaining about how hard it is to put food on your table and how hard it is to be poor, and now you say you eat just fine.

You need professional help. Quick.

Oh, and GFY.

[Name removed]

299. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[glowing]

156. I hear what your saying and I do it this way.. I make most of my stuff myself

all extras get frozen.. make a big pot of good tomato sauce and it makes (depending on how much I get) 4-6 meals... The total cost per meal is close to 2 or 3 bucks... and sauce can be healthy if made by yourself.. tomatos are healthy. My son loves pasta night and tomatos. I buy the organic milk, but like I said way up.. He's the only one who drinks it (I use a little for cooking here and there)... water is what the adult body needs and is starved for.. Add sea salt to one glass of water and you will get a lot of your minerals back without having to buy expensive vitamins and supplements. Take a teaspoon of Apple cider vinegar and a spoon full of fish oil or flax seed oil... and you will stay much healthier...

Oh, casseroles are another specialty of mine.. they make a lot (and I pack the veggies)--usually makes at least 2 dinners and a lunch for the family. Breakfast is usually a banana or a fruit. I have cereal in the cupboard, but only eat that when I'm off of work...

I know what your saying.. it takes more time... I also hear what the other person is saying.. its hard, and it shouldn't be so damned boot-straped in America.. It shouldn't be a choice between heat and food... Its getting bad... Know your neighbors and form bonds with them like your family. Never know what the next year will be like.

[GirlinContempt]

164. You are a giant asshole.

[kestrel91316]

296. You need to clarify who your comment is directed to.

Sandnsea seems to think it's me. I certainly hope not.

[GirlinContempt]

321. No, not you.

[kestrel91316]

241. Cheap food CAN be healthy. But it takes time to do the homework,

and time to prepare it.

Everyone has different priorities. In MY case, I am willing to take the time to research and prepare healthy, cheap food for myself. The alternative costs money I can't always count on having. Your mileage may vary.

[sentelle]

115. It all depends on how much one eats.

USDA recommendations on beef is 4oz a day, not to exceed 8oz a week.

Thats one quarter pounder folks, or two a week, tops. And that would be ALL of your beef intake. Thats not the size we eat, but according to the Government, its what we SHOULD be eating.

You can survive on rice and beans, but it would be nutritionally unbalanced, lacking in fiber (neccesary in feeling full), and unsatisfying. Yet Tofu is (soy) bean derived, and millions have lived happily on it.

Would you believe that the average meal is supposed to be the size of your fist? We eat more, often with obscene levels of HFCS (which makes us not feel full) and by eating more we make our bodies tolerate that abuse. then we say its because we are not eating enough. This is why 66% of Americans are overweight, and 40% are morbidly obese.

Its because the food being eaten has been stripped of its nutrition. We mistake quality food with quantity of food. That more is somehow better. Then we strip the nutrition from the flour, and to be nice, refortify it.... but remember, that the body doesn't readily accept nutrition that is not in its natural form. So we eat that nice flaky white bread, with the thought, "hey, its fortified with vitamin b" not knowing that the body will just piss it out anyhow.

Would you like fries with that?

[sandnsea]

120. Right, and fish and chicken

and meatless meals. But they're all expensive. I buy on sale and freeze things, but just a few weeks ago I planned a chicken meal for all my grown kids and their kids. Who knew chickens would be EIGHT DOLLARS EACH that particular day!!! We didn't have chicken.

Yes, people can eat beans and rice, but you can't live on that alone. Although many would much prefer it to tofu.

And while people like to think that the less processing, the cheaper; the opposite is true. Whole wheat flour is higher than all purpose. I think real oats are even more expensive than a box of generic one minute oats.

So I'm doing all this. I know the difference in a cheap diet and a healthy diet. Yes it's possible to eat basic foods and not starve. But that's not the same as a well-rounded nutritious diet and that's what the article was talking about. And I promise if you put a bowl of boxed mac 'n cheese and a bowl of rice on the table, 95% of kids will eat that mac 'n cheese.

[sentelle]

132. Look for the sales

Like everything else, look for the sales.

The other day, I saw a deal on smart chicken (certified organic, humane, and airchilled), and quickly snarfed them into the cart. so we have enough chicken for a month. and we probably won't eat just chicken either.

A deal can always be found if one plans ahead.

[sandnsea]

138. "I buy on sale and freeze things"

I already said that. I'm fortunate that I can do that.

But when you are on a limited budget, you can't always do that. You have 5 dollars in your hand and have to figure out how to make it stretch the last 5 days of the month. Or you got a flat tire and your food budget is suddenly gone until your next pay day. There's no stocking up. There's no money for a big freezer. You buy what's on sale every week as it is. And organic is as much a fantasy as a Hawaiian vacation, or even a week-end camping trip 60 miles from home because you can't afford that much gas.

That's the way it is.

[sentelle]

144. as someone said ..

Its a question of priorities.

Let me give you an example: my sister and BIL together make a combined income greater (by 50%) than me. My commuting expenses are more expensive (it costs close to $7.00 a day to get on the washington state ferries, more if you drive on), but my wife and I put money away (my wife doesn't work), while they cannot. Here's some of the differences in priorities.
Them: cable, with internet, no home phone service. Us: (until recently), basic phone service, no long distance, broadcast TV. Dialup internet. Difference in cost: $70/month

Them: cell phones (2), us none: difference: 40+

Them: 1400 sf apt.@ 1200/month. Us: 750 @ 900/month. Difference: $500/month

The difference in lifestyle is at least $600/month. And that makes the difference in food bills.

I realise that some can't make these sort of choices though,

[sandnsea]

146. Clue-Less

Low income housing $500 a month. No phone. No cable. No cell phone. No car. No car insurance. Walk to work. Already cut every corner there is to cut.

CLUELESS. Most of the people on this board are clueless as to what it's like for the bottom 25%. Including you and your requisite lattes.

[sentelle]

219. Hold on, The OP suggests "those who are not rich"

Whilst you are talking about the extreme low income.

There is undeniable pressure for those living in low income housing. Last time I checked (with my own eyes, in specific housing projects in NYC), people were concerned about bullets flying, lack of light in stairwells, lack of working elevators, drug deals being done in the stairwells, toxic mold, etc, JUST in terms of housing.

Somehow the intellectual leap was made between "those who are not rich cannot afford healthy food" and "those below the poverty line cannot afford healthy food". It went from being about the bottom 95% to being about the bottom 25%.

If you are living in low income housing, no phone, not cable, no cell phone, no car, (obviously no car insurance), you walk to work, etc, chances are, you are not engaging in conversations at DU (without a phone, or cell, or cable, generally implies no internet).

The extremely poor have bigger issues to deal with than this. They are not going to start growing things in their apartments, sometimes they also have children, whom they have to feed and clothe the best they can. Kids don't always like healthy food.

Without denegrating the poor, I would suggest that there are some bad choices that were made in their lives. Organics, or any other food for that matter, are not going to fix those bad choices.

(On edit) I would challenge you, though to justify the inference you made that the bottom 25% are living in low income housing.
To use an example: the NYC housing authority has under its authority, 180,000 units for the City of New York. NYC has 7 million people. the bottom 25% represents 1.75 million people. Unless you are saying that on average you have 9+ people in an apartment, something is wrong with your numbers. And if there are indeed 9 people in an apartment (typically 1 or 2 bedroom apartments), it may indicate one of those 'bad choices' that organic food won't help.

[Runcible Spoon]

333. Why don't you eat that fucking cross you carry around?

God, I've never seen someone waste so much time maligning good wishes, suggestions, and condolences for your alleged situation the way you do. If you really can't afford to feed your child, then get off you ass, stop wasting 5 hours debating how fucked you are and go do something about it.

[kestrel91316]

244. I shop the store "loss leaders" for most all my meats. If the chicken isn't

on sale they can f---in' KEEP it. When it's on sale I stock up and throw some in the freezer.

[kestrel91316]

243. Beans and whole grains (brown rice, etc) are full of fiber. I can personally

attest to this. But you still need some fats in the meal for TRUE satisfaction.

[BronxBoy]

251. I add a Ham Hock

or smoked turkey leg

[kestrel91316]

240. Highly marbled cuts like fancy steaks and prime rib are the MOST expensive.

Cheaper cuts are leaner, and are the ones that benefit from long, slow cooking. Chuck is lean and crockpots up beautifully. Makes great stew beef.

[UncleSepp]

230. Fat = Emergency room

... if you have gallbladder issues like I do. Too bad, because I love the stuff. I dream of barbecue, little beef ribs floating in a circle around my head. It just makes me feel like I am having a heart attack within a few hours - enough like a heart attack to earn an embarrassing public EKG the last time.

Not everyone's the same. I know you know that :-) you might just be too caught up in making an argument and trying to win that you've set that knowledge aside as inexpedient to your point. You're clearly trying to help others, which is great! But remember that what works for you doesn't work for everyone, and what someone else says about their own body or their own life experiences(ie, can't eat x) is probably true.

BTW, do you make your own stock? How about dumplings? I can make some rye dumplings that will knock your socks off.

[spinbaby]

57. You make some assumptions

Such as time, transportation, kitchen facilities, and cooking skills. The poor often don't have these.

[sugapablo]

67. ...

Transportation IS a big sticking point.

Time? As I said, crock pot meals take no time if that's an issue.

Cooking skills? It's not just the poor who lack these. :) But libraries are filled with how-to's on cooking. Can't read? Have no library? If you're REALLY this bad off (which some people may be), I'm sure you can find SOME person who'd be willing to teach you how to cook. Remember its the POOR who've given us many of the dishes and cooking techniques we take for granted, because they HAD to be creative with what little they had. Even French toast was a poor mans dish (minus the maple syrup), trying not to let stale bread go to waste.

Kitchen facilities? It takes no "facilities". If you can cook Hamburger helper, you can cook whole foods.

As for transportation, if they can get to a store that has Hamburger helper, they can shop for healthy choices at that same store. You're right, it may eliminate the ability to shop around at farmer's markets, etc. But they can STILL shop healthy. If they can't get to any food store...ugh!


Now, those who have NO money and need to rely on food banks....that's a whole different story.

[knitter4democracy]

87. Some live in old motels and such. No kitchen. Often, no hot plates allowed.

Sooo . . . how are they supposed to cook? Take a look at Nickel and Dimed--she talks about this very issue towards the end.

[sugapablo]

93. This...

...IS a severe problem.

My points are in response to the original article which was commenting on prices of food on store shelved. People as bad off in old motels with no kitchen, aren't part of the equation of that article (as far as I could tell).

[knitter4democracy]

100. Even still. How much of a person's budget should food be?

We tend to go organic as much as possible, but it gets really, really expensive, especially when you look for convenience meal-stuff, like people working two and three jobs often fall back on. They don't have an hour or two to make dinner.

[kestrel91316]

245. One reason why I would support a FREE crockpot for every home

that doesn't have one. And a good cookbook for cheap, balanced meals in them.

[Codeine]

264. Crockpots are already practically free.

Folks should hit up the local Salvation Army store or, even better, one of the Mormon thrift stores (they seem more serious about making sure survival essentials are available) if they have one. There are always half-a-dozen slow cookers on sale at the one near my house.

[kestrel91316]

273. I'd like my tax dollars going to buy a nice new $15 crockpot (like mine)

for everyone on Food Stamps, WIC, and other forms of public assistance. Rather than going for bombs in Iraq. But that's just me.

[Codeine]

274. Oh, I agree.

Free cooking equipment and some decent education about nutrition and food prep would be a boon for many.

[JanMichael]

89. I don't think you understand the food budgets of the poorer among us

Food stamps are about 20 bucks a week per person.

Our food bill has damn near doubled over the past several years, we are vegetarians who do every one of your suggestions--

I do not see how people with kids are making it right now.

[sugapablo]

92. I do understand

...because I've HAD those kind of food budgets (with no stamps). I've helped friends with less. It's hard, but do-able.

Many people AREN'T making it right now. It's sad. No doubt.

My points are, if you can afford unhealthy food, you can afford healthy food.

[143tbone]

335. Now there's a point well-made! nt

[kestrel91316]

246. People with kids can get food stamps and WIC.

People like me, single with no dependents, are SOL if we run short of money. Good thing I have never been so bad off as to have needed one of our local food banks. They are running out of donations.

[BronxBoy]

110. She's right

No cooking facilities and no place to safely store cooked food.

Sure a few pounds of beans could feed a family for a couple of days but if you have no refrigeration, how do you store it?

[noamnety]

153. Crockpots work for storage.

If you keep adding water, you can keep beans cooking for a long long time - this is the same theory used for making things like bigos (polish hunter stew) where you just keep it simmering on the stove, or just below a simmer, for days. The first time I made that, I was a little freaked out walking out of the house with the flame on and stuff on the stove.

But anyway, the crockpot suggestions in this thread are where it's at. I can make soup for my whole class of kids for under 5 dollars, and it's a healthy soup, with lentils, onions, potatoes, carrots, celery, and so forth, depending on my mood.

[sentelle]

220. what you are suggesting is unsafe

Are you seriously suggesting that someone starts a stew, leaves to go to work, and returns, ad nauseum? Whether you are doing this on a stove or a crockpot, you take a risk in burning down your domicile.

[knitter4democracy]

231. Or having something nasty growing in it.

I'm all for a crockpot going all day (they're very safe), but once the food's done, you need to take it out and eat it or put it in the fridge. I can't think that it would be safe to leave out for days on end.

[Codeine]

252. As long as it's above 140 degrees

it's fine. You have to replenish the water every once in a while, and of course add new ingredients as you eat up the old, but it's actually very safe. Some folks call it "perpetual stew."

And crockpots are one of those things you can get for dirt-cheap at a thrift store, usually in perfect shape. For some odd reason they seem to work forever.

[knitter4democracy]

285. I've noticed that. They're really hard to kill.

I have two and love them. I just never have felt safe leaving food in there, even with it on, overnight and into the next day.

[noamnety]

267. The nasty things that grow on food in the fridge

are killed when it's cooked.

Are there nasty things that grow on food while it's cooking - that are killed in the fridge? Not so much. Keeping it at a simmer keeps things from growing far more effectively than putting it in the fridge.

I think this is an example of a learned cultural fallacy. Because fridges are modern technology, something man made and industrial, we think it's safer to keep food in there than to use more traditional and simpler methods of preserving food - keeping it on a fire.

[noamnety]

232. That's how crockpots work.

Working families love them, because you can start dinner in the morning, go to work, come home and poof! the house smells like a home cooked meal, and dinner is ready to eat. That's why they have that slow setting, the one that cooks in about 8 hours instead of 3. Who told you they aren't safe?


"Is A Slow Cooker Safe?
Yes, the slow cooker, a countertop appliance, cooks foods slowly at a low temperature—generally between 170° and 280° F. The low heat helps less expensive, leaner cuts of meat become tender and shrink less.

...
If possible, turn the cooker on the highest setting for the first hour of cooking time and then to low or the setting called for in your recipe. However, it's safe to cook foods on low the entire time -- if you're leaving for work, for example, and preparation time is limited." http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Focus_On_Slow_Cooker_Safety/index.asp

Even without crockpots, this was/is a fairly common and traditional cooking technique - which developed I think in part because without modern refrigeration, perpetual cooking is a way to keep leftovers.

"A common practice is to keep a pot of bigos going for a week or more, replenishing ingredients as necessary (cf. perpetual stew)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigos

I'd recommend using a flame tamer for anyone who wants to try that, and to play it safe, I'd definitely do the first batch/first day when you are home, so you can get a sense of how much liquid is needed so the bottom doesn't burn.

But other than making sure you have that worked out, it's not so different from leaving your furnace or hot water heater on during the day when you are gone at work.

[kestrel91316]

247. My mom used to freak out when we would visit my dad's folks on the ranch.

Grandma would make chicken and noodles, a big pot of it. When it was done cooking she just let it sit and cool on the stove with the lid stuck tight on by the suction. She'd reheat it every day for leftovers. Nobody ever got sick from it, lol. But then she didn't have central heat so the house got down into the low 60s or upper 50s at night......

[BronxBoy]

265. I don't know...

You don't have to eat your heat or hot water,

[Codeine]

268. Harmful bacteria

do not grow in an environment over 140 degrees.

[noamnety]

270. You are mixing two separate issues.

I was responding to a post where someone was concerned about "burning down the house" by leaving a heat source on while away from home. Crockpots are considered safe in the regard, just as furnaces and water heaters are safe.

A separate issue is whether bacteria grows on food while it is cooking in a crockpot, and the answer is no.


edit: Wait a minute. Did I really just write "You are mixing two separate issues" in a flame war about crock pots in Late Breaking News?

[BronxBoy]

281. Yes You Did My Friend

Godspeed...

Because I cannot imagine the the fates that will befall you.







Here's a crockpot full of beans and ham hocks....

Bash the shit out of the demon that asks you for it!!!

[noamnety]

309. LMAO

That's the funniest comment ever for me to read, because a couple of days ago I actually tried to score a crockpot of beans and meat for my kids at school off craigslist from a guy who made it for a monday night football party and then had to work late and couldn't go ... I was the second person that emailed. If only I'd been just a bit quicker, my students would have been well fed before winter break. :D

The demons will come for me one day demanding crockpots of beans and hocks and I am going to be empty-handed, I just know it!

[BronxBoy]

320. What????

Someone actually posted a crockpot of beans and meat on the Internets?????

WOW

[noamnety]

322. There's food posted all the time in our area

Sometimes it's apples from a tree that's too productive. Sometimes boxed goods that a roommate left and the person who stayed doesn't like that kind of stuff. Sometimes it's a half used bag of this or that.

The pot of meat and beans did make me laugh, though, I'll admit that. I would never have thought to post my left-overs on craigslist. :)

[BronxBoy]

324. Gotta hand it to the guy though!

A lot of people would have just tossed it.

[pipoman]

338. I'm sorry but buying a pot of "meat" and beans off of craigslist makes my stomach queezy...N/T

:spray: :puke: :rofl:

[noamnety]

343. It wasn't for sale

It was in the free section.

I'm guessing you never spent time either as a disaster victim or as a person doing relief work. If you ever do, you'll learn to appreciate donated food. :)

[pipoman]

344. No problem with donated food and have accepted and eaten it gladly

I just don't trust everyone I meet on the internets to eat their prepared food in the absence of an emergency or immediate need, but I didn't realize it was free either.

[sentelle]

119. prices... prices.

I am not sure what you mean by cheap....
eggs. Organic eggs here start at $4.20/dozen.....
brown rice: Which type? Long/short/basmati/jasmine? They range in the $1.50-$1.75/lb range with a 10% discount in bulk
Oats? $.75/lb (all with 10% discount in bulk)
Barley? $1.50/lb

Beans? $1.50-2.00/lb
Fish? I live in the pacific northwest. we have very few cheap fish, that is not farmed. Dungeoness crab, on the other hand is $5.99/lb

Veggies: Again, I live in the pacific northwest. we have a short growing season, (it rains almost non-stop between sept-july), nothing is cheap.

Fats: Unless you are eating raw Oil, EVOO is worthless, as it burns at too low a temperature. Go with a canola, and things stay cheap.

Drinks: Water is basically free, and the best thirst quencher, unless doing excercise regimens of longer than 2 hours at a go.

[LostinVA]

217. Excellent post

You said what I said downthread better.

I've been very, very poor in my life, and had $50 to feed myself for a whole MONTH. Yes, you read that right. I did it, and it was with healthy, cheap food.

[kestrel91316]

239. Very true. Beans and grains - supplemented with some of the most

nutritious veggies like leafy greens (NO, NOT LETTUCE, lol) and red/orange stuff. Vitamins to be safe. Eggs, some dairy. Small amounts of meat/fish/poultry.

When I go low-budget and eat like this, I don't use recipes much. I just buy what's on sale AND really nutritious, and wing it.

Laurel's Kitchen and the Living More-With-Less Cookbook are very helpful.

They say that as long as you are getting enough calories and are eating a balanced diet, you simply CAN'T starve or have deficiencies. I hedge my bets with the multivitamin.

And frankly, I and a whole lot of other Americans could stand to lose a few pounds anyway...........

[druidity33]

39. join a CSA!

volunteer at a farm nearby! Start building cold-frames (i've grown winter Kale in 2 feet of snow)! Be a seed-saver! Know your local foragable greens! (dandelion, purslane, chickweed, early poke, etc) Find the nut trees in your area, compete with the squirrels (they're taking over the parks anyway)! Test your soil... plant berry bushes and fruit trees in abundance.

I've harvested beach plum, black cap raspberry, salmonberry, mulberry, blackberry, blueberry, strawberry, black walnut, elderberry, sour cherry... all in the wilds of Western Massachusetts. And the plants that grow naturally in their own domain are much more power packed with flavor and nutrients.

Yeah, it's work. But it's fun work... and you get to know your local eco-systems real well. I'm compiling my own regional resource guide... it will be a years long project for me and my child (she's six now)... but she'll know plants and will get wilderness training, and she loves the heck out of picking wild berries and fruits.


Not all food needs to come from the store.

When i worked in NYC in the parks of upper Manhattan, i saw many edible/utile plants that could be used including hawthorne, blueberry, raspberry, and more. I'm not so sure about soil toxicity, but the berries tasted fine to me...

:)

what about rooftop gardens?

It's always worth being around green growing things. It's good for health of the body and the soul.

btw, i think USDA Organic label is a sham. Look for Oregon Tilth or other independent testing agency...

[sentelle]

254. Most USDA Organics that I see

State who tested and certified the particular thing.
In most of the cases I see, its usually someone in the state of washington or Oregon Tilth.

[druidity33]

284. i think

the standards are different. Kinda like buying a car that meets California emissions standards...

:)

[Javaman]

41. Well a person can always grow it.

if you live in an apt, use planters. I did that. you would be surprised as to what can be grown.

[Xithras]

131. Everyone should have a garden.

If you live in a place with a flat outdoor surface that receives sunlight, you should grow food on it. Even sites with only partial sunlight often receive enough to grow a respectable garden. You don't need big planting beds or irrigation systems, just a few buckets and some dirt.

[WarhammerTwo]

42. Some additional interesting material on the topic

http://www.slate.com/id/11740/

http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2007/12/hunger-let-them-eat-broccoli.html

http://grist.org/news/maindish/2006/02/22/philpott/

This one is GREAT! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6GUIIK2-ec

[BrklynLiberal]

48. The cheap junk-food is where the food businesses make their highest profit...

It is in their own interest to keep the good, low-profitablity foods high-priced. This, of course, coincides with the needs of the medical establishment. Cheap fast food drums up more business for doctors, and sells more pharmaceuticals.
A good diet could help you stay away from the medical, big pharma establishment. But, let's see, which are the foods one sees advertized the most?????????????????

[IronLionZion]

51. DU has a frugal living group if anyone is interested in the topic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=353

[liberal hypnotist]

58. Healthy food just takes some re-tooling

In Florida, if I compare the cost of trash food in Publix Supermarket and Whole Foods, an organic market,the price is the same over a month.

Most people don't mind spending ten bucks on a triple burger with fat, sugar and salt but, they balk at spending four or five bucks on organic food.

If you eat vegan to macrobiotic you can eat cheap and healthy. You just need some different tools.

The sugar and salt industries have been on a free ride for years as they poison America. Well, if you eat crap you become crap. Oh well, enough good advice.

[underpants]

64. 900 lbs. gorrilla in the room says -NO SUBSIDIES OTHER THAN CORN SOYBEANS AND WHEAT

THAT is the stinking problem here and truth be told this article serves more to facilitate people not eating healthy just because they read this headline.


We don't subsidize frouts, veggies, or even meat so they are far more expensive than they should be ---even the bad crap let alone good grass fed natural beef and cow products.

We are drowning in corn for crying out loud.

As stated elsewhere - join a CSA and contact your representative they are working on this right now.

[kineneb]

73. also realize- the poor are often depressed/overworked

The last thing they want to do is spend their time cooking.

I am in this situation, courtesy of being depressed. I barely want to eat, much less spend a bunch of time cooking. I will occasionally spend the money to eat out, simply because I know I will get a better meal than if I eat at home. Those who cannot afford to eat out wind up eating as cheaply as possible; thus mac 'n cheese and canned foods, sometimes with fresh fruit, if it is not too expensive.

Sometimes food, any food, is better than no food.

[tridim]

88. I hear you RE: Depression, but..

Cooking can be a great way to relieve stress, at least it is for me. Really dive into it and you'll completely forget about whatever is stressing you out, at least until it comes time to wash dishes. Next time you make mac 'n cheese, instead of using a box get a good homemade recipe online and make it from scratch. It's so much more satisfying and good for you. If you're really bold, get a pasta machine and make your own macaroni noodles. It's all fun, and it's great stress relief. Trust me.

Last time I made Philly Cheesesteaks I made homemade rolls and shaved my own beef (from a cheap cut). It took a lot longer, but the personal satisfaction and taste far outweighed the time spent.

At the other extreme, if I'm stressed and eat at McDonalds I feel like crap the whole day. I'd much rather cook.

[sandnsea]

94. Do me a favor please

Find a recipe where a person can buy the ingredients for less than the cost of a generic box of mac 'n cheese.

Poor people are not choosing between McDonalds and philly cheesesteaks. They're choosing between bologna and white bread and ramen, and $1 hot dogs and generic pork n beans, and 50 cent tuna and mac n cheese.

[tridim]

99. Well, I'm sure I can make 4 servings of homemade Mac and Cheese for

about the same price as boxed. You still have to add milk and butter to the boxed recipe. The only expensive ingredient is the cheese, and a half cup of cheese only costs about 50 cents. Pasta is dirt cheap. Okay, it might cost a buck instead of 50 cents, but the cheese is real and it has at least some nutritional value and protein. Boxed macaroni is almost 100% empty calories, you might as well eat the box too.

Same deal with Ramen. I buy big bags of noodles at the Asian market and make my own broth instead of using those horrid salt/msg packets. It's just as cheap as the cheap ramen, and it actually somewhat good for you.

[sandnsea]

104. Back to reality

Sometimes poor people don't add milk and butter because they don't have it. I've also never seen a mac 'n cheese recipe that didn't call for milk and butter, unless you're using velveeta and you can't buy just a half cup of that. You can't buy just a half cup of any cheese. You go buy a package of macaroni, all by itself, and you've already spent more than the box of generic mac 'n cheese. So what are you going to choose?

Ramen is ten cents on sale. You can make broth for a dime? There's no Asian market where I live, never has been any place I've ever lived. :shrug:

[tridim]

105. I can make gallons of broth for a dime.

Anyone can. I save and freeze chicken bones and make stock with them about once a month. The only expense is onion, celery, garlic (all cheap) and the energy to simmer the water.

It's too bad you don't have an Asian market, they're a great way to save money on staple foods.

[sandnsea]

109. onion, celery and garlic are more than a dime

So no, you aren't making gallons of broth for a dime. And in big families, every piece of chicken gets eaten and the bones are used to make one pot of chicken soup. And what about that cheese thing again?

People only think they know what they're talking about because they don't know how many corners the poor have already cut.

[kestrel91316]

257. Why do you assume SOME of us don't know what it's like to be poor??

It's a wrong assumption, I assure you.

[sentelle]

121. Do you trust that asian market?

You are aware that you should not trust Chinese foodstuffs, do to the high contamination there?
See http://givingupcontrol.wordpress.com/category/chinese-food-scandals/

My wife, is of Chinese Ethnicity, and will not touch anything from china, food wise.

Melamine anyone?

What makes you think that somehow the Asian markets (which while busy are usually not as large as the large chains) can somehow get better prices than the large chain supermarkets in regards to fresh veggies? What tradeoffs are being made for lower prices?

I don't mean to besmirch Asians in general, and I will more easily trust some Asian produce, but not China.

quite frankly, unless the Asian veggies are certified organic (and some ARE, BTW) its not reliable.

[sandnsea]

126. China is the third largest organic producer

http://www.sustainableisgood.com/blog/2007/04/how_safe_is_org.html

[sentelle]

130. yes, but even organics from china are suspect.

Much of china's land is very polluted. To the point that people in china turn to US organics, rather than their own. I have relatives in HK that tell me as much. In a land where you cannot grow organics anywhere within 500 miles of a big city, because of the toxics in the soil, and the water is not drinkable within 150 miles of any large city, how can anything be organic?

In the US, it is not considered organic unless it satisfies US standards, not just because it says so in the nation of origin.

[sandnsea]

136. Nobody is monitoring anything from China

"Cummins estimates that already 10% of organic foods like meat and citrus are imported into the U.S. Silk soy milk, for instance, is made from organic soybeans that are bought in China and Brazil, where prices tend to be substantially lower than in the U. S. Cascadian Farms buys its organic fruits and vegetables from China and Mexico, among other countries (see BW Online, 3/27/06, "Imports From China Aren't Pricier -- Yet")."


http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/mar2006/nf20060329_6971.htm

[tridim]

133. I don't buy anything too odd there..

Mainly big bags of rice, noodles, some produce (I think it's domestic) and various sauces.

I probably shouldn't trust the sauces I buy, but I can't get them anywhere else. I think the soy I buy is made in the Philippines.

[sentelle]

225. something to think about.

Why is the produce cheaper than in the big chain supermarkets?

Keeping organic is hard when non-european ethnicities are involved. My wife is from asia, and it is difficult, (but not impossible) to find non-eurocentric organic ingredients.

Lundberg farms makes a variety of Organic rices. I generally get either a long-grain brown or Jasmine brown rice in a bulk 25 or 50 pound bag. Its as easy to cook as the white variety (unless you do short grain) in a rice cooker, just fill with water and press start. take a little longer though. and when it's done it is fine, not chewy, but not like mush either.

But here's the interesting parts: we eat less of it. Brown rice is more filling than white rice. Because its a whole grain, it is higher in fiber, which means it takes longer to pass through you. Also, because of the fiber, it contains more complex carbs than does white rice (which essentially turn to sugar in the stomach). This has the effect (at least in me) of making my energy levels more consistant throughout the day. none of that sugar rush from white rice, or that feeling of hunger an hour later.

Seriously, a quarter cup (cooked) with about a half cup of "stuff" on top (in this case stuff is whatever you're putting on it, be it chicken and veggies, meat, or spam and eggs) is about is neccesary to fill one up.

Smaller meals, yes. Tasty? absolutely? healthy.... could be.

But think about this: that $8 chicken lasts (under the amount we both eat) for 3 meals for each of us.

Sometimes I think that there is an economy, if you understand how much food your body is wasting, due to the stripping of the foods nutrition in bad food.

So yes, we try and eat healthy, and we mostly succeed, because by eating healthy, we can also eat less.

[kestrel91316]

258. The vast majority of produce in our Asian markets is from the US

from what I have seen.

[Codeine]

266. Absolutely.

It costs a metric buttload to import produce from Asia, especially with the number of Asian-centric agriculture companies in California.

[kestrel91316]

256. And remember to use the ends and trimmings of the veggies

to make the stock, and NOT the parts you want to EAT. Took me years to figure that part out, lol.

Any of the ethnic markets (Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Asian, Russian) are gonna have better prices on produce than American supermarkets. You sacrifice a little in quality, but SO WHAT? Let the rich wastrels pay $2.50/lb for giant, perfect apples in season.

When I get back from vacation I'm gonna drive 2 miles out of my way to hit the giant ME produce place here.

[sentelle]

125. Look at that box

Let me ask you this: why is it acceptable to put industrial waste in a box and call it food?
and why do we call it "putting food on the table" when it is not food?

Seriously. Food ingredients doesn't get created in labs.

If thats what a person is eating, then they have more serious issues than the cost of healthy food (or of internet service for that matter).

[sentelle]

124. Mac and cheese

When I last ate that stuff, I remember that you had to add milk and butter, right?

At that point, honestly, we are not talking about it being hard to eat healthy. We would be talking about it being hard to put any food on the table. Thats called impending homelessness, to be rude about it.

Food doesn't come from a tobbacco company. Chemicals do. Kraft is part of Altria (formerly Phillip Morris). They make chemicals in the guise of food. Look at the ingredient list and show me where the cheese is, then tell me if you are actually eating food.

[sandnsea]

127. Yes. You get it.

Large numbers of people live on the verge of homelessness, their entire lives. At least 25% of the population. Yes. That's the way it is. You eat to get rid of hunger pangs.

[BronxBoy]

269. And some shit that cam out of an envelpoe

Cheese Flavoring it was called

But it kept my belly filled and I didn't die. I remember when you could get 4-6 boxes of it for a buck

[kineneb]

145. just trying to figure out what I want to eat is an ordeal

I am glad that cooking makes you feel better.

I am at the point that cooking has become an overwhelming activity. I am caring for my husband, who is slowly dying from his illnesses, and fighting my own depression. He must eat a special diet, so cooking means double the work. I make what he can eat and then forage for something requiring minimal work for my meals. Sometimes it comes from a box, and other times, a can. Sometimes a chunk of cheese is what I can handle. After negotiating the American medical system, we are at the point where we qualify for the free food distributions.

When I cook, it only because I must, not because I want to.

[momster]

155. Depression Does Not Equal Stressed Out

Depression is a medical condition which leads one to feel that they can only do the absolute minimum required to get through the day. The vicious cycle of food/depression is one that needs more study. But telling people with depression to get cooking because it'll make them forget their troubles is like telling someone with cancer that a good baking session is all they need. No. But a binge on cookies or fast food supplies serotoin like substances in the brain (a woman's depression will often be temporarily asuaged by carbs). You can bet if they don't have the money for good food, they don't have the money for treatment either.

Not to mention the fact that most poor neighborhoods do not have grocery stores that even sell fresh food. Take Anacostia in D.C. Most people there do their shopping at convenience stores -- very little fresh *anything* -- because to reach a Giant or a FoodLion they must travel a considerable distance by bus or car. As we learned in New Orleans, an awful lot of the truly poor don't have cars and can't afford to put gas in them if they do. Even in my relatively affluent area, I see women taking food home on the bus or walking in the evening with two bags of groceries. So factor that in as well. How much can you carry and for how far? Now put in that depression and we go around and around and....

[kineneb]

210. thank you

Let me add that poverty can lead to depression, or at least situational depression. When one is at the bottom, and sees no hope for the future... some people understand that for them the "American Dream" is only a dream. Where would one then find the motivation to "eat well" or cook?

Something that has occurred to me is- the poor are sometimes poor because they have undiagnosed depression/mood disorders. This thought came to me as I was trying to reconstruct my work history for my disability appeal. If one is (medically) depressed, one has little energy to work, hence poverty, which makes one more depressed. Life becomes a destructive spiral into... sometimes suicide.

[momster]

223. Mold + Depression

I read an article in the WaPo today that people who live in homes where mold is present are 40% more likely to be diagnosed with depression. Since residences in poverty-stricken areas are less likely to be 'kept up' -- just because there's no money for the work or materials -- this may also add to that spiral.

[BronxBoy]

275. I wish you were closer

I'd cook for you

:pals:

[kestrel91316]

250. You don't even need a pasta machine to make homemade noodles.

My mom's mom always made her own, just rolled the dough out on the kitchen counter and cut them by hand. They were kind of uneven and thick and exceptionally yummy! Especially with roast beef and gravy.

[glowing]

158. Changing your diet can help your depression.. beleive me.

[kestrel91316]

249. Cooking has been made out to be drudgery by the MSM and people

have bought into that lie, too. Sigh.

I love to cook. It's relaxing and therapeutic. And it can be a learning experience for kids if you ALLOW them to pitch in and help.

A little less time in front of the TEEVEE for the rugrats, and more time spent helping around the house, sez kestrel.......

[kineneb]

314. not drudgery, just too much effort

For people suffering clinical depression, cooking, along with many other things, like cleaning the house, doing laundry, and just doing common activities seems overwhelming. Things get done... when they get done.

here-...no kids, no tv, no help, and a very ill and fragile husband, who is slowly dying. I am working on connecting with our local hospice.

Sorry I seem gloomy, but that is my life right now. Cooking for myself is a lowish priority.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. In one sense this is correct, but part of the problem is that

a couple of generations have grown up not knowing how to cook from scratch.

A supermarket might have cheap, processed foodoids on the one hand and healthier but more expensive deli takeout on the other. Someone who doesn't know how to cook might choose the cheap junk, not knowing that for an intermediate price, they could buy a large quantity of raw ingredients and make up meals to last for a couple of days.

When I lived in New Haven, I belonged to a food coop that was located in a poor neighborhood. They regularly gave classes in cooking healthy food on a low budget. It can be done--and was done all during the Depression--but those skills have been lost.

[kestrel91316]

262. ".......but those skills have been lost......."

Nah. But too many folks think, for some bizarre reason, that they have better things to do with their time than cooking from scratch. We who DO cook get weird looks from a lot of people when we talk about baking bread and home canning and making pickles and preserves.

That reminds me, time to make some more sauerkraut when I get back in town......
http://www.motherearthliving.com/issues/motherearthliving/whole_foods/Sauerkraut-Recipe_268-1.html

[defendandprotect]

101. Concentrate on fresh fruits and vegetables --- no one needs "meat" or fish ---

[kestrel91316]

297. Careful, this thread's resident screamer is gonna let you have

it for such heresy......

[superkia]

113. Endgame: The Blueprint For Global Enslavement

Good documentary by Alex Jones. They are killing us and running us all into poverty, its a great plan if you are on their side.

[fascisthunter]

117. Poor People Work Harder and Eat Like Shit!

They get sick more often because their health is bad yet they can't afford proper health care, nor the sustenance to maintain a healthy existence. Yet more is expected from them. And so the cycle goes on and on.

Yet the uber wealthy right wingers bitch about paying taxes. Disgusting.

[sentelle]

128. Rubbish

This study is flawed.

Who here was taught what a proper portion size is? Or how much meat they should eat? Or the difference between whole grains and the grains we eat?

The reasoning is flawed in this study. They presume that people know what to eat to stay healthy. Most people don't. They know about calories sometimes, about fat, and about carbs, but mostly its about corporate marketing. Drinking a certain amount of milk per day because the milk lobby puts out adverts saying so. Eating large hunks of meat because the meat industry says so.

Has anyone actually looked at USRDA? Were we actually taught it, or was it one of those things where the schools thought it the parents responsibility, and the parents thought it was the schools, and so was never taught, like geography?

No one knows about portion size because it would cut into the profits of big agro. We know nothing about superfoods because it would cut into the profits of agro. We stopped using sugar in our pre-packaged foods because the corn industry was threatened by the sugar industry. so the US gave out US tax dollars to Big Corn, to subsidize, and then placed strict limits not only as to how much sugar could be produced, but how much could be imported, jacking up the price of sugar. meanwhile, Big corn diverts food corn to ethanol, to HFCS, to anything but the food on our table, so that they can artifically jack up the price of corn. And then, they tell us to eat more corn (so they profit more).

We all need to take charge of our own health, because no one is looking out for the little guy, not the doctors, not the farmers, not the insurance companies, and certainly not the government (or as we know it, the front for the big corporations). It also has the effect of making us healthy and wise.

[electron_blue]

135. here here!

[leaninglib]

129. Who can afford to eat right...? Anyone who is not a picky eater.

[bitchkitty]

137. I don't know how true this is...

If you buy vegs and fruits in season, and don't eat meat, your food bills can stay quite low. I realize that some places do not have the readily available produce that we have in Oregon (this is one fertile state.) If you make a lot of things from scratch, leaving out packaged convenience food, you can save even more.

Here's a "poor" dish that is quite nutritious and cheap -

1/2 bag lentils, washed and sorted
2 Roma tomatoes
1 medium yellow onion
garlic to taste

Chop onion and garlic and put in pot with lentils, cover with fresh water. Bring to a boil, put in the 2 whole tomatoes and let them simmer for a minute. Take the tomatoes out, peel them under cold running water and crush the seeds out. Chop the tomatoes and add to the pot - simmer about 45 minutes to 1 hour. If you refrigerate them overnight they're even more delicious the next day. I eat them with tortillas, salsa and sour cream. YUM!

[allisonthegreat]

140. I have said for a long time that the oil may be going down but food

prices will stay the same. Tragic. I live in the southeast and that should be good for produce. It was horrible this year. A sale price for summer squash this summer was .99 cents a lb. Now it is $1.39 now that it is winter. Bag spinach store brand was (the pre-washed stuff) $1.69 now it is $2.39 for 10 oz. bag. I don't eat carbs so I eat alot of veggies and protein. Only fruit in the morning. So yeah it is expensive. Crazy expensive.

[bitchkitty]

177. Hmm - Oregon is probably

better because like I said, it's fertile around here...although most of the farms in the farming community where my family lives, now grow trees and ornamental shrubs.

But on a short walk to the store, I pass pear trees, cherry trees (although the fruit is not good), apple trees, and in summer, blackberry bushes.

[kestrel91316]

Careful, you're gonna get screamed at for suggesting anyone

eat such "slop". They "need" boxed mac 'n' cheese and other such convenience foods!!!!!! And MEAT!!!!!!!

[dysfunctional press]

142. Bullshit. shop the sale items, and you can eat GREAT for not a lot.

we do it every week. and we eat plenty of meat and fish.

[allisonthegreat]

207. Depends on what area you are in

I have never paid $1.29 per lb for apples but I am now. And that is a sale price.

[dysfunctional press]

272. there's always stuff on sale, so i don't shop from a list- i let what's on sale dictate what we eat.

and that's not to say that we have to eat a bunch of crap we don't like- but we generally don't go to the store with specific items/brands in mind. if apples aren't on sale(which doesn't happen often- there's usually at least one variety on sale), we buy the fruit that is. same deal with veggies- if broccoli isn't on sale, maybe spinach is. i love the holidays, because asparagus is always on sale at a good price. frozen vegetables are almost always reasonable to begin with, and often have great sale prices too.
we usually buy whole and/or fresh foods, rather than processed/pre-pared stuff, but when there's a good sale on canned soup, we'll stock up- the wolfgang puck line are pretty decent, and they go on sale for $1 can at least several times a year. add an english muffin, and you've got a really cheap meal.

and don't even get me started on how you can save with coupons, especially when you wait to use them when the item is on sale...cha-ching.

[aredwhiteinblue]

147. We need to raise taxes then I guess. nt

[Wednesdays]

208. Boy, you are transparent as glass

Say hi to Rimjob for us, ok? :hi:

[BronxBoy]

325. And they

Probably read the thread 5 times to come up with a witty saying !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pipoman]

148. We eat healthy and cheap

We are lucky enough to have a few acres to grow some of our food. We often keep a calf though the cost per pound of processed beef is more than grocery store meat on sale, the quality is better and we don't eat as much. I kill 2 deer and some other game every year.

This article is really about the cost of eating right which doesn't include organic necessarily. We have 2-16 year old boys, these are meals for the 4 of us.

1) Chili

2 pounds ground beef, some cumin and chili powder, 2 pounds of beans, 3 cans of stewed tomatoes, 1 onion, 1 clove garlic = $9

we eat chili one night and have enough left over for nachos the next night

Nachos

Large bag of corn chips, shredded cheese, salsa = $6

That is 8 good, nutritious meals for $15, <$2 per meal

2) Ham and beans

1 pk of ham hocks, 3 pounds of beans, 1 onion = $6

We eat ham and beans the first meal and have enough left over to have Mexican the next night.

1 pound hamburger (mix with left over beans), 2 cups salsa, grated cheese, flour tortillas = $6

8 meals for $12

3) Creamed eggs on toast

Dozen eggs, 3 cups of milk, 1/2 cup of flour and 1/2 loaf of bread (homemade) = $5

4 meals for $5

4) Chicken and noodles

Chicken (what ever is cheap legs and thighs usually), 6 eggs and 6 cups of flour $6

First meal we have the soup, second meal the soup is thicker and we eat the left overs over mashed potatoes.

Mashed potatoes= $4

8 F'ing delicious meals for $10.

Now we are not as destitute as some of the posters up thread, in fact we can afford to eat about what we want but this is what I prepare for our family. We eat well, I make almost everything from scratch. We eat for weeks without repeating. Our meals seldom cost more than $2 per person and everyone gets all they want to eat, nobody is hungry here.

[sandnsea]

154. That's not nutritious

Where's the 5-8 servings of fruits and vegetables every day? Eggs, ham hocks, burger, dark chicken = not healthy.

The point of the article is not whether people can put food in their stomach, but whether they can put truly nutritious food in their stomach. I think far too many people refuse to recognize the difference.

[pipoman]

157. I don't buy all

the latest about what is and isn't nutritious. We eat vegetables, grains, meats, dairy every day. I consider not healthy, fast food drenched in fat, most all pre-prepared food, box foods like Hamburger helper, mac and cheese out of the box. My wife and my cholesterol isn't bad, we don't get sick beyond an annual cold and maybe the flu, blood pressure is good, nobody is over weight or malnourished. Eggs are great food, ham hocks only flavor the 3 pounds of beans (1 1/2 pounds of hocks = 1/2 pound bones, skin and fat leaving 1 pound of ham for 8 servings of beans), same for the chicken. These foods are what has brought humankind through the last, oh, million years or so...now the powdered cheese, various other lab-or-a-tory creations being sold as food have a much shorter history and are poison IMHO.

[pipoman]

159. Oh and we do mix in a lot of

venison which is outstanding food though not everyone has access or the inclination to eat it. Also fresh veggies in season. I think that most of the "scientific" studies telling everyone what to/not to eat are flawed and more often funded by some interested party.

[sandnsea]

160. The article is about what professionals advise

Not what you think. What is healthy is a diet of primarily fresh fruits and vegetables, some grain, and small amounts of lean meat and dairy. That's the food that has brought humankind through the last, oh, million years or so.

[pipoman]

162. Not true

where do these winter dwellers get fresh fruit and veggies. Farming cultures stored grain, hunters preserved meats by drying them or salting it. People throughout the ages have eaten what is available when it is available and preserved what they could to eat later. Now I have no desire to go back in time, like anytime before a couple of hundred years ago when everyone worked every day dawn till dusk simply to eat, hunters/gatherers.

I am simply saying I call bullshit on what this years scientific community are disagreeing about how and what I should eat. I will prepare good tasting, nutritious, inexpensive food the way I have for 20 of my last 40 years and be happy to eat it.

[sandnsea]

163. root cellars

cool caves. dried fruits and vegetables. kegs of cabbage. Lots of methods of preserving fruits and vegetables. That's what people have eaten. That is what's healthy.

[pipoman]

168. Keep in mind, we live in the snow covered plains

so we are on winter menus right now. Our summer menus very often contain no meat at all and only fresh veggies and fruit, fresh fish, etc. We do eat a higher fat diet in the winter months.

[sandnsea]

170. And should have a root cellar

I've lived on the snow covered plains in my lifetime too.

[pipoman]

178. We do keep some root veggies and winter squash, frozen veggies, etc.

again my point is to refute the OP. Not everyone has the land to raise food, the ability to kill deer and keep the meat, or raise their own eggs, chickens, beef, etc. My examples above are based on foods and prices to buy those foods available to anyone. As I said we eat for weeks without repeating a menu. My kids don't complain about what we eat, they like it. Maybe they would like to eat out more but they will have plenty of time to make their own decisions about what they eat. For now I teach them to cook using real ingredients. It is a role reversal compared to most households but guess what, they don't think baking a cake or cooking all day as a woman's work. Their friends come over and can't believe their eyes at the meals I put on the table, their friends seldom see real food from their mother and never from their dad (if they have one).

I go out a few times per month during the winter and shoot a couple of rabbits or pheasants (any more and I would deplete our populations) they are good food too.

If you are ever going to be in the heart of Kansas let me know and I will prepare a feast without a single store bought item.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kestrel91316]

300. What? No boxed macaroni and cheese??

[Psephos]

165. You gonna trust this article (and its true believers) or your own lyin' eyes?

Your debate-mate would have been advising a carb-rich, fat-depleted diet ten years ago, based "on what the article said" at that time. And s/he would be just as wrong then as now.

Alcohol bad! No, alcohol good! Fat bad! No, fat good! Carbohydrates really good! No, carbohydrates just ok! Oops, carbohydrates bad! Dairy good! No, dairy bad! No, make that some dairy bad, some good! (Or is it some dairy good, some bad?) Starve yourself, and live longer! No, a bit of extra body fat actually correlates with living longer! Coffee bad! No, coffee good! And on and on and on....

Those who want the best current analysis should read Gary Taubes' new book Good Calories, Bad Calories. It's a treasure mine of research, experimental evidence, and sharp analysis. Unlike virtually every other book on the subject, Taubes espouses no ideology. He simply reports what he found.

Humans did not eat grain before the advent of agriculture, nor, as you aptly observe, anything that came from a box or a can or a machine in some far-away factory. No sugar, no modern supersweet fruits, and few concentrated starches. Our digestive tracts evolved in the absence of these things, and we'd be best to feed ourselves foods similar to those our prehistoric ancestors ate. That's the true definition of healthy eating - a diet that actually matches the way we're made.

You sound like you're doing just fine. More power to you. Save me some ham hocks. :-)

[sandnsea]

169. No

I've always known a diet based on fruits and vegetables and nuts are what's best for a person, by simply looking around and seeing what grows naturally in the environment. And a diet of ham hocks and burger that come from factory farmed animals is sure as hell not what's been on the planet for millions of years.

So based on your own so-called logic, you're still wrong.

[Psephos]

174. Ham hocks and hamburger are a lot closer to the paleodiet than what you purport

Read the book I mentioned. It's not someone's opinion, it's a compendium of hundreds of opinions by the bona fide expert researchers.

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400040787/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198127323&sr=8-1

Try this one, too. Real Food - What to Eat and Why, by Nina Planck.

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Calories-Bad-Gary-Taubes/dp/1400040787/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198127323&sr=8-1

I don't have a dog in this fight. I eat a natural diet, not an ideological one. I'm healthy as an ox, fit, full of energy, under 10% body fat, and look a decade younger than my age. I teach fitness as well as live it. I trust what my body tells me, just as the other gentleman does. Why try to "win" an argument with him, when there's nothing wrong and a whole lot right with his results? If you actually care about him, why try to tarnish his happiness? If he eats an extra ham hock or two beyond what you think is right, so be it. Many items in the paleolithic diet would have made that ham hock look like a tofu burger.

BTW, I can't "still" be wrong, given that was my first post. :-)

[sandnsea]

176. No, it can't be

Because the way animals are raised today has changed the chemical make-up of meat.

Regardless, half the people in this thread say people shouldn't eat meat and they could eat healthy. And then along come these other people who want to eat nothing but meat and starch, and call that healthy. And both just want to dump on poor people who can barely afford to eat either way. THAT is the debate. For reasons that I will never understand, the majority of people, even at DU, never want to accept how hard it is to be poor in this country.

[pipoman]

183. Surely you aren't referring to me wanting to "dump on poor people"?

Because that is the way your post sounds. If that is what you are saying I am done talking to you.

I don't completely disagree with you about the animals. I will say that if some of the practices were not done meat would cost far more than it does now. As for my meat it is steroid/antibiotic free, grain and alfalfa fed, the venison is wild so no steroids there, the chemical composition of both is meat.

I have never claimed to be as poor as you, in fact I stated that in my first post in this sub-thread, but I feed my healthy family regularly for <$2 per meal and change up daily.

[sandnsea]

185. Hey, if that's how you want to live

that's your business. But just because you don't have a problem with not being able to afford fresh fruits and vegetables for your family, doesn't mean everybody else has to sit in the same boat. And yes, the consequence of your attitude is dumping on poor people because they aren't as savvy as you so fuck them anyway. And if you raise the majority of your food yourself, and still want to equate that food budget to people who can't, well then that's even worse.

[pipoman]

189. Go ahead and shut out everyone

keep eating your Kraft yellow dust and noodles mixed with fake butter when there are healthier alternatives. Cry yourself to sleep about not being able to afford $10 per serving food when there are people who could afford it who choose to eat good, cheap home cooking.

And with that I am done talking to you as you obviously are only here to pick fights with people who are talking respectfully and offering their $.02.

[sandnsea]

192. lol, $8 dinners for four are EXPENSIVE

But keep your head up your ass so you don't have to see the poverty in the world. While you dump all over me for what you perceive to be eating like a poor person, when you said that wasn't what you were doing. But oh, it was.

Respectful my ass. Everybody in this thread chimed in to express their superiority to the poor.

[pipoman]

193. It must be tough to not only try to buy food but also keep up your psychotic meds

good luck with your food and your mental illness.

[sandnsea]

194. lol, more of that respectful discourse, lol n/t

[joeglow3]

255. In all fairness

you do have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. Of course there are people who are so poor that they are forced to eat crap. However, none, if any, of those people should be here (the people here can afford a computer and internet access and have free time to wheel around the internet, after all).

None of us claimed to provide an answer that is applicable to 100% of the population. However, many of the ideas shared here would be applicable to a large percentage of the poor, leaving us to only have to explore solutions for the remaining group.

[sandnsea]

271. The article is about those poor

the ones forced to eat crap. I respond to someone who says their purpose is "to refute the article", so I don't know why in the world I'm the one being deemed as unfair. I don't have any chip on my shoulder. YOU just said that there are people who are so poor that they are forced to eat crap. I defend them, I never said I was living on a $600 a month income - and look at the attitude and nastiness I get just for defending poor people. Most of the "ideas shared" are dinner recipes, and don't address the point of the article at all - daily nutrition includes 5-8 servings of fruits and vegetables every day. I recognize hardly anybody eats like that, but that isn't the point of the article. The point is that we should, and that it is expensive to eat a variety of fresh produce, lean meat and fish, and whole grains. People can't just say they reject what the professionals say and then dismiss the article on that basis. Or say people can eat lentils and carrots and celery every day, so fuck em. Or the one who says they can make gallons of broth for a dime, when you can't even buy one carrot for a dime. They're unrealistic and/or liars, sitting up on their high donkeys pretending to have solutions when all they've got is arrogant condescension of circumstances they've never had to endure.

And I get shit on for saying so. :crazy:

[kestrel91316]

303. You're not the one being shit on, dearie.

Your responses to those who are suggesting ways to eat better on little money are deplorable.

You need to think about hiding your head in shame.

[sandnsea]

306. As if poor people don't already EAT THAT WAY

Fatty meats and starch and celery and carrots. You honest to god think poor people don't know this??? That's the point of the goddamn article, it's NOT HEALTHY. Jesus.

[kestrel91316]

302. Hmmmm.....

"......Everybody in this thread chimed in to express their superiority to the poor......"

Yep. Especially those of us who recounted our own experiences with being poor and struggling to eat decently on little money. THE NERVE OF US.

SHAME ON YOU.

[kestrel91316]

301. I've read this entire thread and not seen a single post that "dumps" on the

poor. You are insane.

[sandnsea]

307. Nobody ever knows when they're calling the poor lazy and stupid

Because they usually GET AWAY WITH IT.

[fascisthunter]

330. Look at Who You argue with and How They Politically Lean

on other issues, then you see where they are coming from. Generally the more conservative, the more ignorant and disconnected to the realities of poverty and diet. They will argue with you "tooth and nail" to perserve their delusion that poor people bring this shit upon themselves and that they know better. Not only are they IGNORANT, they are arogant and self righteous.

There is nothing more fucked up than a person who isn't poor telling us who have been poor or are poor how to eat and live. These people live in a bubble and need a really good kick in the ass.

[humus]

166. New Farmer

The stereotype of the farmer as rustic simpleton or uncouth redneck is, like most stereotypes, easily refuted: All you have to do is compare it with a number of real people. But the stereotype of the small farmer as obsolete human clinging to an obsolete kind of life, though equally false, is harder to deal with because it comes from a more complicated prejudice, entrenched in superstition and a kind of insanity.

The prejudice begins in the idea that work is bad, and that manual work outdoors is the worst work of all. The superstition is that since all work is bad, all "labor-saving" is good. The insanity is to rationalize the industrial pillage of the natural world and to heap scorn upon the land-using cultures on which human society depends for its life.

The industrialization of agriculture has replaced working people with machines and chemicals. The people thus replaced have, supposedly, gone into the "better" work of offices or factories. But in all the enterprises of the industrial economy, as in industrial war, we finally reach the end of the desk jobs, the indoor work, the glamour of forcing nature to submission by push-buttons and levers, and we come to the unsheltered use of the body. Somebody, finally, must lift the garbage can, stop the leaks in the roof, fix the broken machinery, walk in the mud and the snow, build and mend the pasture fences, help the calving cow.

Now, in the United States, the despised work of agriculture is done by the still-surviving and always struggling small farmers, and by many Mexican and Central American migrant laborers who live and work a half step, if that, above slavery. The work of the farmland, in other words, is now accomplished by two kinds of oppression, and most people do not notice, or if they notice they do not care. If they are invited to care, they are likely to excuse themselves by answers long available in the "public consciousness": Farmers are better off when they lose their farms. They are improved by being freed of the "mind-numbing work" of farming. Mexican migrant field hands, like Third World workers in our sweatshops, are being improved by our low regard and low wages. And besides, however objectionable from the standpoint of "nostalgia," the dispossession of farmers and their replacement by machines, chemicals, and oppressed migrants is "inevitable," and it is "too late" for correction.

Such talk, it seems to me, descends pretty directly from the old pro-slavery rhetoric: Slavery was an improvement over "savagery," the slaves were happy in their promotion, slavery was sanctioned by God. The moral difference is not impressive.

But the prejudice against rural people is not merely an offense against justice and common decency. It also obscures or distorts perception of issues and problems of the greatest practical urgency. The unacknowledged question beneath the dismissal of the agrarian small farmers is this: What is the best way to farm--not anywhere or everywhere, but in every one of the Earth's fragile localities? What is the best way to farm this farm? In this ecosystem? For this farmer? For this community? For these consumers? For the next seven generations? In a time of terrorism? To answer those questions, we will have to go beyond our preconceptions about farmers and other "provincial" people. And we will have to give up a significant amount of scientific objectivity, too. That is because the standards required to measure the qualities of farming are not just scientific or economic or social or cultural, but all of those, employed all together.

This line of questioning finally must encounter such issues as preference, taste, and appearance. What kind of farming and what kind of food do you like? How should a good steak or tomato taste? What does a good farm or good crop look like? Is this farm landscape healthful enough? Is it beautiful enough? Are health and beauty, as applied to landscapes, synonymous?

With such questions, we leave objective science and all other specialized disciplines behind, and we come to something like an undepartmented criticism or connoisseurship that is at once communal and personal. Even though we obviously must answer our questions about farming with all the intellectual power we have, we must not fail to answer them also with affection. I mean the complex, never-completed affection for our land and our neighbors that is true patriotism.


http://www.progressive.org/April%202002/berry0402.html

[Tumbulu]

173. beautiful

I was reading your post and kept thinking - is this Wendell Berry? And it is!

Thank you for the wisdom.

[sentelle]

222. but is your food the same as it was 20 or 40 years ago?

Were they feeding your milk rBGH to enhance the output, possibly putting extra BGH into your system? Were you eating wheat with human DNA in it 40 years ago?

Then again, think about those farming communities, the hunter gatherers? What was their sugar like? certainly not what we see, that white stuff we get was created by a machine invented in 1813. Before that, it had impurities that had nutritional value.

Then again, how long did they live? I guess its fine, to eat what you like, if you intend your lifespan to be averaging 30 years. As we have learned more about our diets, we have gotten older. Its only the current generation, with its mantra to 'eat like its the weekend' every day, (and of course, if you eat like its the weekend everyday, then the weekend needs to be special right? So we wind up overeating during the week, and eat even more on weekends.) have we gotten to the point of dying faster than previous generations.

[pipoman]

226. It seems to me a contradiction

to state that food quality is the worst it has ever been, that traditional foods will kill ya, yet life expectancy has steadily increased for the last 100 years.

I believe that life expectancies have increased because of better diets, better medical technology, and better living and working conditions. I and my family do not have obesity problems. I think the main factors in the obesity problems of many is eating margarine not in eating butter, eating french fries not in eating potatoes, eating nondairy cheese or processed cheese foods not in eating cheese, eating corn syrup not in eating honey, eating white sugar not brown, eating bologna and hot dogs not in eating meat, you get the idea.

I don't like some of the things used to enhance output of livestock or crops. Without these things many food items would cost more than they do right now. I hear a lot about growth hormones in beef. This is something I know a little about. We do not put a steroid chip in the cattle we raise for our personal consumption. Feeder cattle for market do get a chip. The feeder steer will be at 1200 lbs after 18 months, our steer will be at 900. Our steer eats the same amount of feed, drinks the same amount of water. The cost of production is the same. Market price on cattle is around $1 per pound on the hoof. Production cost on the cattle is around $.75 per pound on the feeder steer, production cost on my steer is $1.00+. By the time my steer is processed I pay 15-20% more per pound than sale price store bought beef. The quality is much better IMO but most people are not willing to pay 25-30% more for their beef. That is not to mention the lower production would necessarily cause the price to go up even more.

As for the wheat thing, I live in the wheat belt. There is hard red winter wheat completely surrounding me as I speak. It doesn't look anything like a human...

[sentelle]

227. it DOES seem that way.

Some companies have altered DNA in food seed, including wheat. In the case of wheat, human DNA was added to make it resistant to some disease or another. That would make it GMO. The question in my head is, how does one actually know what these things do to the body 10-20 years from now without doing the research? Animal testing is not completely accurate for these tests, as they will show risks only for very obvious things.

Another question: if both types of meat are totally safe, why bother tagging which one is which? why not do the same process on the cattle you use for personal consumption? I will admit to avoiding beef in general, but I am not by any means a vegetarian. Beef is yummy, and if I could, I would eat it more often.

much of the biggest changes in agrobusiness has occurred in the last 40 years. this cooincides with the gradual drop in life expenctancy as well. Artificial growth hormones didn't happen until recently, and the history of its use in the US is not without controversy, as it pertains to how easily directors from Monsanto become reviewers for the FDA.

and BTW I love hard red wheat, its got good gluten content, and when ground to a pastry flour makes a nice bread.

[pipoman]

235. Again, I don't like some

of the things being done. I don't like the growth hormones in my beef, that is why we pay more to raise our own beef than we could buy it for at the store. I don't know that the hormone beef is as safe. I don't know of a consistent market for steroid free beef. There are a few local butchers who will buy some but not enough to bank on. The result is that unless I want to loose money on the beef I raise I have to chip the cattle because of the scenario I explained above. You are right, it wasn't until big business got into livestock production that growth hormone science became the norm. If corporate farming hadn't done the R&D and made 1200 lb steers the norm, we wouldn't have this issue.

[sentelle]

253. maybe when its been around 50 years

Then I might consider it safe, assuming there are no health scares regarding it between now and then.
There must be a reason why Canada doesn't allow it.....

[Akoto]

179. With all respect ...

Is there a reason you're being so aggressive in this thread? It seems like you're at the throat of anyone who doesn't feed their family the way you do, even if they've maintained good health for years. We all have different circumstances, and I hardly see the advantage of making people feel badly about doing what they've had to do.

[Tumbulu]

181. I was wondering the same thing

[sandnsea]

182. My god, I didn't create nutritional values

The medical and science profession did. Go argue with them.

I'm not making anybody feel bad about what they're doing, I'm tell them to stop being smug and missing the point of the article, which is that the poor can't eat nutritiously.

Half the people get on their high horse and say the poor people should just stop eating meat, and they'd be healthy.

The other half get on their high horse and say people should just eat meat and starch, and they'd be healthy.

How the HELL does this become about ME???

I'm the one sticking up for the poor people.

:crazy:

[Akoto]

184. I don't think people are being smug.

Granted, there are some folks who are offering impractical suggestions. I believe, however, that most have also hit rough times (along with the majority of Americans, myself included) and are sharing what they've done to try and feed themselves well in the face of tighter finances. It's a discussion board. People discuss, sometimes in a fashion that strays a little from the article.

[sandnsea]

186. No, they want to dismiss the problem

It happens every time there's a thread about the poor. It's stunning the number of so-called liberals who dismiss any article about the poor, unless it's about health care because Michael Moore said so. These are not posts from people who just want to share their solutions, the posts I responded to are specifically people who arrogantly dismissed the notion that poor people couldn't feed their family a NUTRITIOUS daily diet.

[Tumbulu]

187. Donkeys not high horses

I read lots of posts by people trying to articulate ways to eat a more healthy diet on a low budget. And lots of ideas about what a healthy diet meant to them. Just personal opinions shared. From city and town people and rural people. All trying to figure out ways to eat a healthy diet in a world that seems to have gone mad.

[sandnsea]

188. But it's not healthy

The article is about a healthy diet. You can't just make up your own rules and then dismiss the original problem cited based on your own set of rules. It's nonsensical.

[BronxBoy]

277. OK....I'll chime in

What are YOUR suggestions to fixing this problem???

[sandnsea]

283. Nobody here has any suggestions to fix any problem

Just pure denial that there is a problem at all. Obviously the economic gap is the problem, but with the way the entire society is divided up, the poor are too easy to ignore these days. This thread proves it, one of the worst I've ever seen at DU.

[BronxBoy]

289. WIih All Due Respect

I think that you are a bit too hostile


I was specifically asking you what ideas YOU had to address the issues that. obviously, you have strong feelings about.

It's one thing to say someone is living in a "latte" world and belittle them and quite another to post solutions which you think might make sense from your perspective.

[kestrel91316]

292. Don't waste your breath. This person is CLEARLY not interested in

talking about REAL solutions and helpful suggestions from others who have had to eat on a very tight budget. All she wants is to spew venom.

I think professional psychiatric care is the only solution for whatever the hell ails this nut.

[sandnsea]

298. The poor are lazy and stupid - that's all this thread says

Telling poor people to eat potatoes and beans and oatmeal is like telling someone to put on a coat when it's cold. DUH. It's fucking insulting and the NORMAL REACTION to being so thoroughly insulted is to get pissed.

[sandnsea]

294. Yes I'm hostile to ASSHOLES n/t

[kestrel91316]

291. I gave you some suggestions and you just got snotty with me.

YOU DON'T WANT HELP. YOU JUST WANT TO BITCH.

[sandnsea]

293. I DON'T NEED HELP

I'm trying to explain what it's like for some of the people in this thread who you all are just walking right on by because you wouldn't DARE say this shitty crap to their face.

[kestrel91316]

305. She has no suggestions. Her only purpose is to be nasty to those of

us who DO have suggestions.

[kestrel91316]

304. Look in the mirror and Google "projection".

You've bent over backwards to make me feel bad about my suggestions, BTW.

Wake up.

[sentelle]

221. There is a lot of that going on

Where people don't recognise the difference.
Food vs. healthy food.

'not rich' vs. 'below the poverty line'

Some of the problem is education. what is a 'serving' of vegetables? I don't eat vegetables, I eat food. carrots, lettuce, fish, grains, all food.

I don't eat nutrition, I eat food. Someone once said that if your grandmother wouldn't recognise it as food, put it back.
Eggs are ok, in moderation (1-2 a day, tops)
burger? again, 1-2 a week
dark chicken, in moderation.

A good guide is here http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/28/magazine/28nutritionism.t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin
called 'unhappy meals'

[pipoman]

312. yep,

you have probably summed up my point better than I have. I am not suggesting any of my posts in this sub thread can feed the person with no money at all. My point all along has been that there are many people who piss away $6 per person daily eating McDonalds, or the convenience store telling themselves that this is the best/cheapest I can eat. They are wrong. While my menus may not completely fulfill the food pyramid (or what ever shape is the flavor of this month) but the meals are tasty, filling, and better nutritionally than anything from the McDonalds or any kind of chips and soda.

I don't have solutions for feeding the destitute but feeding the working poor or for those who are living from paycheck to paycheck there are solutions.

[GirlinContempt]

167. If you have a computer,

you are not (at least currently) poor enough to say "I do it all the time!".
Thank you.

[Wednesdays]

209. Hear, hear!

If you're reading this while using high-speed Internet (or even $10-a-month dial-up), and on a name-brand computer (or even an old Pentium I hand-me-down), you're likely not one of the bottom-of-the-barrel poor the article is talking about.

[Socal31]

171. Wow...

another excuse for people who cant control their eating to rationalize it.

If anyone says anything about "glandular problems" I might throw-up. Where are all the glandular problems in the rest of the world? GET OUT OF MCDONALDS!

[GirlinContempt]

172. Shut up.

[UncleSepp]

234. ROFL

Thanks :-) I was going to answer "Tonga and Samoa", but I like your answer better.

[GirlinContempt]

236. I like to be succinct.

[distantearlywarning]

341. I want to recommend this post. n/t

[piedmont]

175. My wife and I eat healthy for about $400-550 a month for both of us...

but that's because we spend a LOT of time preparing things from scratch (we both love cooking and have the time for it) and during the warm months we grow most of our veggies (and we grow greens in the winter). We could probably shave another $100-200 off by eliminating our occasional meals at restaurants and skipping certain "premium" ingredients. But for someone who is pressed for both time and money, eating healthy would be a serious challenge. I've thought about how I would eat if I only had $2 or $3 a day, and I concluded I could do it and be reasonably happy, but the underlying assumption in my hypothetical is that I'd have time to cook and garden (though growing greens is not very time-consuming), and have a car (or even a scooter) to transport foodstuffs. Eliminate the car and the time, and that makes it much tougher.

[kineneb]

228. my friend has a $40/mo food budget

and no, she doesn't eat very well. With costs going up, I don't know what she will do.

Our food budget (two adults, one with special diet) is maybe $200. Can't afford more than that.

[undergroundpanther]

190. Poverty has a way of grinding you down

If you ain't poor you don't understand it. Have a bit of humility please.People, if you can afford to eat 'healthy' food, organic whatever,than you are not poor enough to understand this issue really. You might think you do,but your suggestions prove you have no clue.If you can't afford a car,because you can't afford gas,repairs,or to even insure the car if you were given one for free...and you walk everywhere, and you worry about heating oil,keeping the place cold scared you might not have oil when the life threatening cold settles in,if during the last week of the month you are flat broke...

I get 600 a month. And it's tight as fuck. In fact I am broke right now. In my cabinets and stuff I got some mac and cheese , 3 oranges, PBJ fixins,half a loaf of bread, some butter,and some ham,iced tea,can of tuna,an onion,two eggs,a small jar of mayo,a little milk,about a half bag of frozen green beans,and a half bag of corn,some pasta and sauce...and a few fish sticks..until January first. Some months it's worse. One month I had nothing to eat for two days.

My grocery budget is about a hundred bucks a month,after bills get paid. that's 25 bucks a week. If it is a 5 week month it's less.
Tell me how I can eat organics on this budget? How do I do this in December with no car,no way to get to any farmers markets,(bus does not go there or run the days it's open in the summer)Let alone haul heavy bags with my fucked up back,or work a garden that would provide food beyond immediate needs with my back? It's not possible. I forage some,wild plants. But again that is summertime.

Now when I go to the store with 100 bucks I come out carrying two bags of stuff,back in the summer earlier this year I came out with four,last year 5...Things cost more,and everything is contaminated,the food supply is contaminated,because this entire planet is choked with toxins and pollutions from industry, humanity and civilization and it's excesses. And nobody is really rioting over grocery costs,the toxic foods or this massive corporate exploitation of life or anything like that yet..there's lots of talking,but still nothing in real life changes in a way that betters my life yet.So forgive my hopelessness.


I feel like I walk around with a target on my head,I am trans gender,queer, artistic, non christian,openly liberal,and unapologetic about it, I am a mental health rights supporter,psych survivor,on disability and I am repulsed by this mis administration,embarrassed and disgusted and I despise the top 1 percent wealthy assholes and I hate psychopaths narcissists and authoritarians...I am everything this administration and it's comfortable oblivious selfish flawed people hate all rolled into one cat.

It is only a matter of time until this neo-con nazi administration to makes some stupid law or stupid help the poor "program",that screws us more but looks good on paper and to the middle class.. passing some resolution in the middle of the night and congress rolls over and ok's it all and I get screwed to the wall and there is no one there beside me screaming except other 'useless eaters' disabled freaks and homeless dregs nobody listens to anyway .All those scary poor or broken human beings all the middle class wants to run away from and make sure cannot live in their neighborhoods. Face it this country sees the poor as roaches to be stomped or a blight on their perfect chem lawns.Even the middle class has it's resentment issues.It's easier to look down and kick the weak soul underneath you than kick the ass of the boss man holding your paycheck.

So don't pretend you know how it feels to be poor if you are not poor,Unlike people who "sympathize" with people like me, I know how vulnerable I am. Being in the"useless eater" class it kinda never really stops feeling socially precarious.

I just hope this shit is over soon.

I can't be stressing over blowing 60 bucks on one weeks food to 'eat right',I just need enough to eat all month. I can't worry about reading every label avoiding all the nasty shit companies put in food because I know EVERYTHING is contaminated ...if the pesticides on my frozen beans doesn't kill me,there are thousands of other toxins and industrial by products in the water,air or carpet..or the dirt itself that could harm me too. The world has been poisoned.By the Civilized game of lies we tell ourselves to avoid seeing the mess we are making of this world ourselves,each other...Sigh.

I don't care about good/bad food anymore I just don't want to feel sick with hunger. Really I want out of this pay to exist in this mess world that I never asked to be born into.

Human games of I have and you can't have are SICK.... I can't get stupid people to wake up and see how corporations have made us co dependant on them,taken away our self sufficiency,and destroyed everything good in the Earth, in humanity, in life,...death? Likewise I can't get financially comfortable people to really understand poverty on anything but a superficial scale .They won't grok how it feels to live in it because they have never HAD to DO it. .Poverty takes a toll on me like it does on every poor person.A toll far more than just a fat ass and a crappy diet, being poor is a grinding down of life,of hope, it ensures you will struggle like hell just to live, live in fear of debt,or of not having enough..scraping by to the point that relaxing enough and just being alive seems like a dream only the middle class and above have..

To me life has been a very cruel joke,and I can't laugh anymore because it hurts too much to laugh at something so fucking needlessly wrong a problem so huge yet so simple that could be so easily preventable..only if....we learned to care for each other first,learned to respond to another's distress,rather than turn away into our own anxiety and do nothing, to value sharing over winning and competing and gathering unto ourselves..

If people were not so damn scared of each other,and if they'd just stop holing up in their houses and shopping to cover the angst,got out reformed ties with each other somehow..learned to live instead of survive...regardless of status.

I dunno. Time grows short and the Earth is dying,and My heart is in shards on the floor and what can I do about it..? Survive. but with the way the world is,the way so many people are , I will never get ahead enough to feel secure enough to stop surviving and learn to live my life in this life, because eventually as the world's poisons seep into me I may die before than..

[kineneb]

229. I do understand. We had to use the food pantry.

We live on Hubby's disability, which is about double your income. It still leaves us at under 125% of the fed. poverty rate for two adults. We qualify for free food and Hubby gets Medicaid. We went through Ch. 7 bankruptcy. I am applying for disability (SSI, because I lack work units) due to long-term depression. When Hubby passes beyond this world (which may be this year), I will be left to fend for myself on the same amount of money you get.

Yes, just being able to eat something is more important. I have become almost obsessive about having canned and boxed foods in the pantry...because they are food. We are fortunate to have a car, garden, and a few amenities- left from Hubby had a good-paying job. But that is all. The future looks rather bleak.

[humus]

259. steal this list .....if you have to

The 29 Healthiest Foods on the Planet


The following is a "healthy food hot list" consisting of the 29 food that will give you the biggest nutritional bang for you caloric buck, as well as decrease your risk for deadly illnesses like cancer, diabetes and heart disease. Along with each description is a suggestion as to how to incorporate these power-foods into your diet.

FRUITS

01. Apricots
The Power: Beta-carotene, which helps prevent free-radical damage and protect the eyes. The body also turns beta-carotene into vitamin A, which may help ward off some cancers, especially of the skin. One apricot has 17 calories, 0 fat, 1 gram of fiber. Snacks on them dried, or if you prefer fresh, buy when still firm; once they soften, they lose nutrients.

02. Avocados
The Power: Oleic acid, an unsaturated fat that helps lower overall cholesterol and raise levels of HDL, plus a good dose of fiber. One slice has 81 calories, 8 grams of fat and 3 grams of fiber. Try a few slices instead of mayonnaise to dress up your next burger.

03. Raspberries
The Power: Ellagic acid, which helps stall cancer-cell growth. These berries are also packed with vitamin C and are high in fiber, which helps prevent high cholesterol and heart disease. A cup has only 60 calories, 1 gram of fat and 8 grams of fiber. Top plain low-fat yogurt or oatmeal (another high fiber food) with fresh berries.

04. Mango
The Power: A medium mango packs 57mg of vitamin C, almost your whole-recommended daily dose. This antioxidant helps prevent arthritis and boosts wound healing and your immune system. Mangoes also boast more than 8,000 IU of vitamin A (as beta-carotene). One mango has 135 calories, 1 gram of fat and 4 grams of fiber. Cut on up and serve it over leafy greens. Bonus: Your salad will taste like dessert!

05. Cantaloupe
The Power: Vitamin C (117mg in half a melon, almost twice the recommended daily dose) and beta-carotene - both powerful antioxidants that help protect cells from free-radical damage. Plus, half a melon has 853mg of potassium - almost twice as much as a banana, which helps lower blood pressure. Half a melon has 97 calories, 1 gram of fat and 2 grams of fiber. Cut into cubes and freeze, then blend into an icy smoothie.

06. Cranberry Juice
The Power: Helps fight bladder infections by preventing harmful bacteria from growing. A cup has 144 calories, 0 grams of fat and 0 fiber. Buy 100 percent juice concentrate and use it to spice up your daily H20 without adding sugar.

07. Tomato
The Power: Lycopene, one of the strongest carotenoids, acts as an antioxidant. Research shows that tomatoes may cut the risk of bladder, stomach and colon cancers in half if eaten daily. A tomato has 26 calories, 0 fat and 1 gram of fiber. Drizzle fresh slices with olive oil, because lycopene is best absorbed when eaten with a little fat.

08. Raisins
The Power: These little gems are a great source of iron, which helps the blood transport oxygen and which many women are short on. A half-cup has 218 calories, 0 fat and 3 grams of fiber. Sprinkle raisins on your morning oatmeal or bran cereal - women, consider this especially during your period.

09. Figs
The Power: A good source of potassium and fiber, figs also contain vitamin B6, which is responsible for producing mood-boosting serotonin, lowering cholesterol and preventing water retention. The Pill depletes B6, so if you use this method of birth control, make sure to get extra B6 in your diet. One fig has 37 to 48 calories, 0 fat and 2 grams of fiber. (Cookie lovers - fig bars have around 56 calories, 1 gram of fat and 1 gram of fiber per cookie). Fresh figs are delicious simmered alongside a pork tenderloin and the dried variety make a great portable gym snack.

10. Lemons/Limes
The Power: Limonene, furocoumarins and vitamin C, all of which help prevent cancer. A wedge has 2 calories, 0 fat and 0 fiber. Buy a few of each and squeeze over salads, fish, beans and vegetables for fat free flavor.



VEGETABLES

11. Onions
The Power: Quercetin is one of the most powerful flavonoids (natural plant antioxidants). Studies show it helps protect against cancer. A cup (chopped) has 61 calories, 0 fat and 3 grams of fiber. Chop onions for the maximum phyto-nutrient boost, or if you hate to cry, roast them with a little olive oil and serve with rice or other vegetables.

12. Artichokes
The Power: These odd-looking vegetables contain silymarin, an antioxidant that helps prevent skin cancer, plus fiber to help control cholesterol. One medium artichoke has 60 calories, 0 fat and 7 grams of fiber. Steam over boiling water for 30 to 40 minutes. Squeeze lemon juice on top, then pluck the leaves off with your fingers and use your teeth to scrape off the rich-tasting skin. When you get to the heart, you have found the best part!

13. Ginger
The Power: Gingerols may help reduce queasiness; other compounds may help ward off migraines and arthritis pain by blocking inflammation-causing prostaglandins. A teaspoon of fresh gingerroot has only 1 calorie, 0 fat and 0 fiber. Peel the tough brown skin and slice or grate into a stir-fry.

14. Broccoli
The Power: Indole-3-carbinol and sulforaphane, which help protect against breast cancer. Broccoli also has lots of vitamin C and beta-carotene. One cup (chopped) has 25 calories, 0 fat and 3 grams of fiber. Don't overcook broccoli - instead, microwave or steam lightly to preserve phytonutrients. Squeeze fresh lemon on top for a zesty and taste, added nutrients and some vitamin C.

15. Spinach
The Power: Lutein and zeaxanthin, carotenoids that help fend off macular degeneration, a major cause of blindness in older people. Plus, studies show this green fountain of youth may help reverse some signs of aging. One cup has 7 calories, 0 fat and 1 gram of fiber. Add raw leaves to a salad or sauté with a little olive oil and garlic.

16. Bok Choy (Chinese cabbage)
The Power: Brassinin, which some research suggests may help prevent breast tumors, plus indoles and isothiocyanates, which lower levels of estrogen, make this vegetable a double-barreled weapon against breast cancer. A cup will also give you 158mg of calcium (16 percent of your daily recommended requirement) to help beat osteoporosis. A cup (cooked) has 20 calories, 0 fat and 3 grams of fiber. Find it in your grocer's produce section or an Asian market. Slice the greens and juicy white stalks, then sauté like spinach or toss into a stir-fry just before serving.

17. Squash (Butternut, Pumpkin, Acorn)
The Power: Winter squash has huge amounts of vitamin C and beta-carotene, which may help protect against endometrial cancer. One cup (cooked) has 80 calories, 1 gram of fat and 6 grams of fiber. Cut on in half, scoop out the seeds and bake or microwave until soft, then dust with cinnamon.

18. Watercress and Arugula
The Power: Phenethyl isothiocyanate, which, along with beta-carotene and vitamins C and E, may help keep cancer cells at bay. One cup has around 4 calories, 0 fat and 1 gram of fiber. Do not cook these leafy greens; instead, use them to garnish a sandwich or add a pungent, peppery taste to salad.

19. Garlic
The Power: The sulfur compounds that give garlic its pungent flavor can also lower LDL ("bad") cholesterol, lower blood pressure and even reduce your risk of stomach and colon cancer. A clove has 4 calories, 0 fat and 0 fiber. Bake a whole head for 15 to 20 minutes, until soft and sweet and spread on bread instead of butter.



GRAINS/BEANS/NUTS

20. Quinoa
The Power: A half cup of cooked quinoa has 5 grams of protein, more than any other grain, plus iron, riboflavin and magnesium. A half-cup has 318 calories, 5 grams of fat and 5 grams of fiber. Add to soup for a protein boost. Rinse first, or it will taste bitter.

21. Wheat Germ
The Power: A tablespoon gives you about 7 percent of your daily magnesium, which helps prevent muscle cramps; it is also a good source of vitamin E. One tablespoon has 27 calories, 1 gram of fat and 1 gram of fiber. Sprinkle some over yogurt, fruit or cereal.

22. Lentils
The Power: Isoflavones, which may inhibit estrogen-promoted breast cancers, plus fiber for heart health and an impressive 9 grams of protein per half cup. A half-cup (cooked) has 115 calories, 0 fat and 8 grams of fiber. Isoflavones hold up through processing, so buy lentils canned, dried or already in soup. Take them to work, and you will have a protein packed lunch.

23. Peanuts
The Power: Studies show that peanuts or other nuts (which contain mostly unsaturated "good" fat) can lower your heart-disease risk by over 20 percent. One ounce has 166 calories, 14 grams of fat and 2 grams of fiber. Keep a packet in your briefcase, gym bag or purse for a protein-packed post-workout nosh or an afternoon pick me up that will satisfy you until supper, or chop a few into a stir-fry for a Thai accent.

24. Pinto Beans
The Power: A half cup has more than 25 percent of your daily requirement of folate, which helps protect against heart disease and reduces the risk of birth defects. A half-cup (canned) has 103 calories, 1 gram of fat and 6 grams of fiber. Drain a can, rinse and toss into a pot of vegetarian chili.

Low fat Yogurt
25. The Power: Bacteria in active-culture yogurt helps prevent yeast infections; calcium strengthens bones. A cup has 155 calories, 4 grams of fat, 0 grams of fiber. Get the plain kind and mix in your own fruit to keep calories and sugar down. If you are lactose intolerant, never fear - yogurt should not bother your tummy.

26. Skim Milk
The Power: Riboflavin (a.k.a. vitamin B2) is important for good vision and along with vitamin A might help improve eczema and allergies. Plus, you get calcium and vitamin D, too. One cup has 86 calories, 0 fat and 0 fiber. If you are used to high fat milk, don't go cold turkey; instead, mix the two together at first. Trust this fact: In a week or two you won't miss it!



SEAFOOD

27. Shellfish (Clams, Mussels)
The Power: Vitamin B12 to support nerve and brain function, plus iron and hard-to-get minerals like magnesium and potassium. Three ounces has 126 to 146 calories, 2 to 4 grams of fat and 0 fiber. Try a bowl of tomato-based (and low fat) Manhattan clam chowder.

28. Salmon
The Power: Cold-water fish like salmon, mackerel and tuna are the best sources of omega-3 fatty acids, which help reduce the risk of cardiac disease. A 3-ounce portion (cooked) has 127 calories, 4 grams of fat, 0 fiber. Brush fillets with ginger-soy marinade and grill or broil until fish flakes easily with a fork.

29. Crab
The Power: A great source of vitamin B12 and immunity-boosting zinc. A 3-ounce portion has 84 calories, 1 gram of fat, 0 fiber. The "crab" in sushi is usually made from fish; buy it canned instead and make your own crab cakes.

Copyright © BellyBytes.com. All rights reserved.

[blogslut]

319. Not turnip greens?

Seriously? Not mustard greens? Now I'm sad.

[DCKit]

191. Your summary is excellent RamboLiberal. More filthy tricks. Rec'd

[Retrograde]

195. George Orwell summarized this thread 70 years ago

In ch. 6 of "The Road to Wigan Pier", a 1937 account of coal miners living in poverty in northern England, he discusses their diet, how it's filled with processed food and sweets, and how well-meaning outsiders's suggestions for a cheap, wholesome diet are dismissed by the miners:

"When you are unemployed, which is to saywhen you are underfed, harassed, bored, and miserable, you don't want to eat dull wholesome food. You want something a little bit 'tasty'. There is always some cheaply pleasant thing to tempt you. Let's have three pennorth of chips! Run out and buy us a twopenny ice-cream! Put the kettle on and we'll all have a nice cup of tea! That is how your mind works when you are at the P.A.C. level. White bread-and-marg and sugared tea don't nourish you to any extent, but they are nicer (at least most people think so) than brown bread-and-dripping and cold water. Unemployment is an endless misery that has got to be constantly palliated, and especially with tea, the English-man's opium."

[Vinca]

200. Finally - an article that tells it like it is.

You can't eat very healthy on the cheap unless you have very good and very exceptional sources. City dwellers, for example, are hard pressed to have anything other than tiny gardens. People who live inland are unlikely to be able to get cheap, affordable, FRESH fish. Country people have access to "pick your own" fruit in the summer which is usually cheaper. You have to work with what you've got and most people have a chain supermarket to deal with. Nutritionists say you should stick to the outer aisles of a grocery store because the inner aisles are packed with processed foods. That's good advice, but the outer aisles are also the most expensive. Apples $1.49/lb. on sale, oranges $1 each, spinach $3.29/bag. I bypass most of the meats, stopping on occasion to visit the $40.00 rib roast put out for the holidays. There's a nice fish department, but - scallops $11.99/lb., codfish $9.99/lb., cheap tilapia not an option because it comes from Asia. I shop in a state that still has cheesemakers and dairies and can still buy fairly reasonably priced products in that department, but most people can't. If you buy plain (i.e. sauceless) frozen vegetables on sale in large bags you can get a good buy. We shouldn't be judgemental on the issue of obesity. It's complex and involves money, physical health and mental issues. There really are people who eat as they should and remain fat. There are people who have a choose between an orange and a box of Kraft Mac & Cheese for $1.25. Do you feed your family of 4 a quarter of an orange for supper or a small plate of mac & cheese. Beans and rice again?? Life ain't easy.

[Le Taz Hot]

201. I'd like to see the science on this.

And "researchers." Who paid these researchers? You CAN eat healthy AND cheaply. Buy in bulk. Can your own fruits and veggies when they're in season. (Yes, I said can because freezing takes electricity and I like to use my very small freezer to stock up on meats). Stock up on hams and turkeys when they're on sale at Thanksgiving and Christmas. I just bought two turkeys on sale for 44 cents a pound. Do you know how many meals can be made from ONE turkey? Make things from scratch. I've posted my recipe for French rolls/bread on here a number of times. It costs about 10 cents a loaf to make. Barring the summer months in which I'm buying lots of fresh produce, I can spend less than $200.00 a month for groceries (sometimes less) on a family of 3. Soups in the winter are incredibly inexpensive to make (remember the turkey and ham bones you stocked up on during the holidays?). And the best thing about making things from scratch is that YOU control the ingredients so there's nothing in there you can't pronounce or that comes from a laboratory. Lastly, makes LOTS of whatever and eat leftovers.

[Bigmack]

205. I agree....but...

Our grandparents (or great-grandparents) lived through some hard times, and they did the stuff you're describing. Hell, done it myself... I was one of those "back to the land" people in the 1970's thru 1990's. My family - and my livestock - lived like kings on the castoff food from a rich suburb where I taught.

Problem today, is that people don't have, and can't seem to acquire, the skills needed to do what you suggest. There are limitations for city dwellers, too. They don't have room for canning supplies, or room to store the canned food. Or places to store/freeze leftovers. Or places to buy cases of fruits and veggies. Or Granny, to show them how to do it!

With both parents working, it also cuts down on the amount of time available for food preparation and storage.

Another problem is the media and advertising. I don't think people even know there's a way to eat other than nuking a "convenience" food that's loaded with salt, sugar, fat, and chemicals. Went thru the market checkout the other day, and one young couple had Doritos, beer, coke, and "Hot Pockets". Jeeezus! They'd eat better Dumpster Diving behind the produce store!

It's going to take a concerted effort to educate the people on how to find, prepare, and store good food, and I don't think a country with the screwed-up priorities this one has will do it.

[pipoman]

311. Amen

this is exactly how we eat. We could technically afford to eat junk if we wanted, or eat out more but I choose to cook just as you have suggested. I do mostly freeze summer veggies instead of can. I really don't think there is much if any difference in cost for us, we have the space. We have an upright freezer we keep going all the time and I bought a chest freezer a couple of years ago for $100 on a garage sale which we use when needed in addition to a garage freezer/refer we use for summer produce, unplug during the winter.

Some in this thread are trying to prove that it is impossible to eat with no money at all. I don't disagree with that, I do know that cooking like you are talking about is relatively inexpensive (<$2 per person per meal, not per serving, per adult getting all they want...filled up) and not widely practiced. There are obviously people who cannot afford that, but there are a lot of "working poor" who piss that much away every day justifying it by saying "I can eat as cheaply off of the dollar menu as I can at home" which is simply not true if the cooking & shopping are done correctly. If more people who are living on the edge would quit with the prepared junk and do their own preparation they would be healthier and wealthier.

[fascisthunter]

332. You Don't Need the Science if You Lived It (nt)

[4dsc]

202. Show's the failure of the FARM BILL!!

Let's face it, the way we farm in this country, growing mostly corn and soybeans, it why good food is so expensive.. We should be diversifying what we grow but instead concentrate on corn and soybeans in the midwest..

[roody]

203. Lentil soup is cheap and easy,

especially with a crock pot.

[flvegan]

214. Not just money. Lack of nutritional knowledge is also to blame.

I find it odd that folks know exactly what gas to put in their car, and have probably never mixed up the car oil with the lawnmower oil, yet they don't know what foods to put in their bodies and when.

[BronxBoy]

286. Amen

We don't teach nutrition and We don't teach mortgage finance.

And then we wonder how shit is so fucked up.

[LostinVA]

216. It's cheaper to eat healthyish than badly if you have a stove and fridge

Many people just don't know much about nutrition and how to actually COOK food. Some people are literally too lazy... when I've given people healthy, cheap recipes, I've had people say to me: "I don't want to have to chop up a vegetables."

Jeebus.

[killbotfactory]

218. You can buy a microwave dinner for a dollar

Or you can buy a couple apples.

And they wonder why poor people are obese and malnourished.

[sentelle]

224. a couple of apples for a dollar?

I live just outside of Seattle, and Apples go for a lot more than that here.

[noamnety]

276. I can get them for that price.

I was selling apples at our school cafeteria for 25 cents a piece. That was just barely the break even point, but I was able to do it. They were locally grown, definitely smaller than fancy schmancy supermarket designer apples, and bought at a local ethnic grocer, rather than a chain store where transportation and packing is a huge expense. They were tasty, though - much better than the grainy red delicious that most cafeterias sell (for some inexplicable reason).

[Codeine]

280. Red delicious.

Always the most popular and least edible apples in any supermarket. Repulsive stuff, but people love 'em!

[knitter4democracy]

288. They do until you give them a good apple.

I've ruined a few people that way. If they know nothing else, those horrible piece-of-worthless-carb deer apples are good. Then you give them a winesap right off the tree or a fuji or an empire or a jonathan. They never go back. :evilgrin:

[bitchkitty]

345. They used to actually be delicious

Eating an apple used to be an awesome experience - the crunch, the tart-sweet rush of apple juice in your mouth - apples were my favorite food as a child. Now I don't eat them - the taste and texture are gone...but they look real pretty. :(

[knitter4democracy]

287. Ah, they were good apples, then.

I shouldn't start on my apple theory, but suffice it to say, locally grown and smaller is almost always better.

*sigh* I love a good apple. Maybe I should make a pie this weekend.

[killbotfactory]

337. I guess it depends on where you live

Here they are about 60 cents, or two for a dollar.

[pipoman]

313. "When I was young we were so poor

we lived in a shoe box on the side of the road. Every morning we would get up a half hour before we went to bed and lick the road clean with our tongue...."

[SpikeTss]

327. COMBINED COSTS FOR THE WARS OF AGGRESSION: $2.4 TRILLION

Many people were hungry after Hitler's wars of aggression.

Many people are hungry after the current wars of aggression against the people of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Fascism is never healthy. Not for the nation that attacks, not for the nations being under attack. It's a simple rule!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2007-10-23-wacosts_N.htm

[fascisthunter]

331. Hey Know-It-All Conservatives: STFU

PS - I hope you losers lose everything just so you can walk in the shoes of a poor person. Just be glad your mommy and daddy could aford to provide you with a decent upbringing and with that a decent education to know how to eat "healthy".

[insleeforprez]

339. Taxation could work to fix this problem

Would anybody be in favor of taxing unhealthy food (along with other things that make people unhealthy, including video games, tv's, and adding additional taxes on alcohol and tobacco). I would then use at least some of that money to functionally make healthier food *less* expensive, whether that be through subsidies or expansion of food stamps.

Of course, logistically this is impossible; who's to decide what is healthy or unhealthy? But in theory, doesn't this make a little bit of sense?

[Infinite Hope]

340. I've eaten healthy for $4 a day...

during college. I've found if you search hard enough, you can actually save money by buying healthier foods.

[humbled_opinion]

354. Exactly..

Try to buy organic its insane... and you know I think the government should subsidize healthy foods because if you eat healthy your less likely to get sick hence medical prevention would assuage out of control medical costs IMHO...:toast:

[PittPoliSci]

357. "We were shocked,"

idiot. obviously doesn't do much grocery shopping.

[rayofreason]

358. Eating healthy...

...is cheaper if you are better educated.

I can make three meals for a family of four out of one chicken because I know what to do with it - stir fry the thinly slice breast with carrots (or something else; various sauces), make a curry with green apples and a bit of cream from the hind quarters, and a fine thick soup with rice and vegetables comes from the bones with plenty of meat bits in it. But the people who eat the worst are exactly those who are most vulnerable and without resources - poor, uneducated folks with weak families (poor transmission of cooking traditions).

I don't know how to resolve this problem, but I am reminded of the story of the fish. Give a person a fish and you feed them for a day, teach a person to fish and you feed them for life. Nobody ever talks about learning how to cook the fish.