Half of Mexicans in US 'illegal'

[douglas9]

Source: BBC News

More than half of the estimated 11 million Mexicans residing in the US are there illegally, according to a report by the Mexican government.

Two-thirds of Mexicans who migrate, or try to migrate, to the US every year do so without documents, it said.

The report, timed to coincide with the UN International Migrants Day, said almost 30 million people in the US were direct descendants of Mexican migrants.

Illegal immigration is set to be a key issue in the 2008 US presidential poll.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7152549.stm

[madfloridian]

1. Immigration is 4th and 5th down the list of priorities on polls.

http://www.pollingreport.com:80/prioriti.htm

Iraq, health care, and the economy are top issues. They are avoiding taking care of those to push one with lower priority.

[Xipe Totec]

2. Nice wedge issue nt

[OhioChick]

3. I Think That the #1 Issue

for the public is/will be the Economy/job loss.......which in turn will make tempers flare over illegal immigration.

[mac2]

5. 4th or 5th on list of concerns...

Depends on what area or city in the country you are from. States such as Illinois, California, Texas, etc. have more crime and problems. Their budgets also ruined and stretched. The largest cities have most the illegals because it is easier to hide and better for jobs. DA!!

Since the last amnesty the numbers are more than 13million illegals. I'd say more like 30 million. Whole towns in Mexico are empty. Driven off farms by corporations and laid off by off-shoring to Asia, etc. They also have over population problem because of their religious belief. So..they come here.

Polls are not that good when it comes to areas hardest hit. What does Iowa care? I have heard they are upset about it though.

I once knew a statistician who drowned while wading across a lake with an
AVERAGE depth of three feet..."Posted by: R. A.
Date: September 7, 2007 1:41 PM

[Laughing Mirror]

4. 5.5 million "illegals" out of 300 million "legals"

Somehow I think undocumented workers is not one of the biggest challenges facing the US. But they are the easiest to demonize, dehumanize, so why not?

[mac2]

6. Whole country of illegals?

Whose history are you reading? We passed immigration laws after the last "immigrations crisis at the turn of the century" because of too much flow, over population and poverty in cities, disease, and crime. We wanted to protect our borders and new citizens. We wanted to be "one" not allow any person to enter on the dole. It risks our security and future.

No other developed country in the world allows it because it is bad policy.

After our last immigration flow (much less than now) we passed laws and promised to enfore them. They have not. Punishing companies would have been the best to stem the flow instead this President helps it for his own global slave market.

Guess your job and community isn't threatened.

[Laughing Mirror]

8. We let in who we want to let in, and when

Nobody was saying anything when the housing boom was going on, because the workers who'd slipped across the border were not only building but buying those houses.

Not that the boom is over, the jobs are gone, but the people are still here. What are you going to do with them? Should have thought about that first.

[mac2]

11. What do we do with them?

Do like other developed countries in the world enforce the law. If I break the law I go to jail. They should be sent back and enter legally. It would be cheaper than paying for them over the years with education, benefits, and pensions.

If we continue to ignore our laws and future, we will suffer and be destroyed. Our culture and "oneness" ruined. Yes...we are many but most our immigrants have adjusted and blended into society. Many of the new illegals want their own culture and rules to be American like that of their old country. No I don't like hot food!! I love their art and music. What's wrong with mine?

In my community they flow from all over the world. I can't understand some of them when ordering food, etc. Our hospitals and restaurants feeling the lack of good hygiene practices, training, experience, etc.

Maybe you would like to take in a few illegal families and support them? My grandparents from one side of the family were immigrants. They stayed with friends and family not on the public dole or robbed, etc. until they were employed.

[goodgd_yall]

15. Live and let live n/t

[High Plains]

16. Wow, where to begin to respond?

1. Undocumented Mexican workers are part of the American economy, and have been for a century. What we need to do is enact comprehensive immigration reform that recognizes this fact and provides for worker permits and worker rights, not mass deportations and workers who can be bullied by bosses.

2. Undocumented Mexican workers are workers, not bums (I know, I generalize). You don't have to support them; in fact, they will be supporting you by propping up the Social Security system. (You remind of the redneck complainant in the Austin Lounge Lizards' "Illegal Teenage Mother Immigrants on Drugs:" "They're stealing our jobs, they're too lazy to work." Well, which is it?)

3. Our culture and "oneness" will be destroyed. You talking to me, white man?

4. Don't like hot food? Don't eat it. Don't like people with accents? Don't patronize their businesses.

5. Your remarks about lack of hygiene are just downright offensive, and bordering on racist.

[Laughing Mirror]

25. I can barely support myself

If I provided shelter for a few families, or even one other person, I could not support them. They would have to support me.

Please share us your figures on the number of undocumented workers families on welfare. And also the robbery data showing the percentage of robberies they are responsible for.

Most working people, like your family and mine, come to this country to work, not to commit crimes.

[LanternWaste]

28. Well, I'm dating one if that helps.

Well, I'm dating one if that helps.

Dear God, I never knew that my girlfriend was ruining our "oneness" (whatever the hell that means) and our culture.

To assuage the assault on your culture, I'll immediatley ask her to stop making traditional Mexican food when she cooks dinner for me-- will that help at all?

Maybe I should suggest that she cook only "American" food (is there such a thing as American food-- I mean, other than Coke and junk food and the occasional meth?)

I didn't realize she never practiced good hygiene either-- for someone who spends as much time in the bathroom prior to a date as she, I'd always imagined she cleaned up pretty well. Color me surprised.


And here's a suggestion-- If you can't understand "them" in the restaurant, maybe you could learn an additional language or two like I am. Furthering our education is never a bad thing, right?


"If we continue to ignore our laws and future..."

Francis, I'm not ignoring our future-- as a matter of fact, the more I find out about this girl I'm dating (oops-- should have said, "the more I find out about this illegal immigrant I'm dating...."), the more I'm thinking about our future.

It's just your future I'm ignoring...because posts like yours illustrate to me (rather aptly at that) who's a waste of my time on this planet and who isn't.

And just so you know, Francis-- your job is safe from her.... :eyes:

[Lost-in-FL]

29. Huh????

"In my community they flow from all over the world. Our hospitals and restaurants feeling the lack of good hygiene practices, training, experience, etc."

AND you call yourself a progressive? This is pretty backwards if you ask me.

[EFerrari]

35. Lou Dobbs, is that you?

[Megahurtz]

49. I Totally Agree!

Excellent post!

>>>"Do like other developed countries in the world enforce the law. If I break the law I go to jail. They should be sent back and enter legally. It would be cheaper than paying for them over the years with education, benefits, and pensions."<<<

EVERY other developed Country deports Illegals and makes them return legally, why shouldn't we?

All of the Socialist Countries in Europe do this! :think:

Good God. Some people just don't get it.

[depakid]

53. "oneness" ruined.

In Australia there's a fringe party that pretty much espouses these views.

It's called "One Nation," and thankfully, it's gone down in disgrace.

[noamnety]

21. I'd like to know whose history YOU'VE been reading.

[struggle4progress]

55. Protecting the homeland ...

http://www.the13thstory.com.nyud.net:8090/krg/HomelandSecurity1492.jpg

[joeglow3]

7. True, when it does not affect you

My father is a union drywaller. 30 years ago, he made a great living and could easily support his family. Then, he started to see illegal immigrants showing up. Things got so bad, my mother was forced to make our clothes, as they could not afford to buy them. There was a stretch of about 6-8 years that he had an annual pay CUT. My father was forced to take side jobs, and have my brother and I help him, on a cash basis so we could avoid the taxes and actually be able to support our family.

While we need to do something other than "ship them all back" it does disproportionately affect blue collar union laborers. In fact, a recent study showed the average American was about 10% better off because of illegal immigrants. However, drilling down into the details showed that rich were much better off than just 10% and the poor and working class people were WORSE off (and my family was in that bunch).

I don't have the answer, but as a member of a union democrat family, we put more emphasis on the union members who are being bled to death over people who come here illegally.

[Laughing Mirror]

9. The rich have gotten richer and the working poor poorer

Now let's see. Whose fault is that? The Mexicans?

[winter999]

12. Maybe so.

If illegals are willing to work LESS THAN minimum wage who does this affect?

Rich man b/c his costs are less.
Poor man b/c he can't get a competitive job.

So, yes, illegals do influence the Poverty Gap.

[Laughing Mirror]

23. I didn't ask who it affected

I asked who was behind it.

Poor people, be we illegal or legal, have practically no voice, no power politically, and certainly almost none to fight for good wages or create jobs. So that elimnates the poor as being the cause of this problem.

So who or what has created this hateful situation?

[NashVegas]

32. They Aren't Necessarily Making Less Than Minimum Wage

What happens when you work under the table is, your employer doesn't pay any unemployment or FICA taxes, nor chip in for any medical benefits.

It's all the fringe benefits that are affecting payrolls.

[mac2]

13. Yes..

and every illegal immigrant who breaks the American law. They start off as bad citizens who only care about money not our democracy. Their way of life is under attack just like ours. Oh yes...it is OK to push others aside for your own survival.

[sinkingfeeling]

17. My God, will you burn that FAIR literature you've been reading! How dare you

state that they 'start off as bad citizens who only care about money.."! From your posts, it would seem that that's all you care about. Your way of life is under attack by the the corporations and the top 1% of the ownership society.

[Lost-in-FL]

30. Excuse me...

but please educate yourself before making such ridiculous statements. http://www.ailf.org/ipc/special_report/sr_022107.pdf

[0007]

56. Please back up some of the absurd statements you are making

with links. You sound like a complete fool!

[joeglow3]

14. Don't get me wrong

I blame the employers more than anything. That said, the issue as a whole is VERY important to me. I want to balance the side of me that wants to help everybody with the side that doesn't want to just screw over the working class.

[mac2]

10. Bring them up to us?

Remember Clinton's NAFTA was to keep them in Mexico? It was to bring them up to us. Now it seems it is the opposite of bring us down to them. We are to be slaves to the few elite.

The union leaders have betrayed their members by not fighting the hiring of illegals who bring down wages. Any workers hired should have been legal and trained. Wages should have been the same for them not lower.

A plumber was complaining to me about trying to make ends meet. He was a union member but had to compete with cheaper labor who had no training. He was trying to get his license but needed more money for training certificates. Why aren't scholarships or loans available for plumbers as well as history teachers?

Sorry about your family. My family also was effected by the off-shoring of Buffalo business and wealth. Buffalo lost half their population since the 70s. The university became their largest employer compared to years ago when there were 500 different businesses thriving in the town. It was a lake community with cheap power (Niagara Power paid for by the Buffalo area citizens). It was "privatized" and now Toronto uses the power. Needless to say the Buffalo power is no longer cheap or reliable (during a storm they were without power for a week). Never happened before in my 40 years of living there.

I worked in research and saw the grants disappear for war spending.Even after getting a business degree, no jobs were available for a women over 40 years old. My education, experience, and marks meant little since the jobs were gone forever.

Privatization and globalization is robbery of everything we built by the few.

[bjb]

18. huge issue

I think the Democrats have their head in the sand over this issue. Even my seventy five year old employer, who has been a Democrat all his voting life will not be voting for a Democrat in 2008 just because of out parties views on ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

[someone else]

22. Cheap labor.........

Cheap labor is no more an excuse for illegal immgration than it was for slavery. Both were and are wrong. This ain't an either/or choice.

[Yupster]

36. We kjust got our roof replaced

Got about 5 bids. Four of them were about $ 14,000 (we have big house and had to put in decking too).

The other bid was $ 9,400. Not a company - just a work crew.

The guy convinced me he knew what he was doing, so we went with the lowest bid. At the end, he asked for very odd payment arrangements. Paid one check to the store where he bought the materials, and then the other check to him individually. He came back saying he couldn't get my check cashed and he paid his crew immediately with cash, so I went to my bank with him and had my check cashed into $ 50 bills.

I talked to all the guys together (the boss spoke some english and translated) about setting up bank accounts so they wouldn't need cash. I also talked about IRA's and savings plans. The boss said he wasn't able to set up an account because he had his wallet stolen and had his borth certificate and SS card in it. He said he couldn't replace them because each wanted the other as evidence before replacement. I know that's not true because I just replaced my lost birth certificate on-line without any trouble at all.

Anyway, was this a crew of illegals? How should I know? I'm not the police, but it sure looked like it to me.

I admit I didn't feel good about the whole thing because the other companies couldn't get close to competing with the crew's prices. It makes sense why if they are paying taxes, and withholding FICA and paying a better wage to the workers. I admit I suspected there was a problem right from the beginning, but the $ 5,000 savings was just too much to ignore.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? The work was done very well. One guy told me he had five kids at home to support. These guys and their families need to eat just as much as any other. But -- what are the other roofing companies supposed to do to compete? They can drastically cut their wages to their crews I guess. That's sure not a good thing.

[NashVegas]

31. "Undocumented Workers"

Good to see they have a purpose.

[lovuian]

19. this will be an issue when we are in deep recession

Jobless Americans anger will be brutal

[coalition_unwilling]

20. Not a single post on this thread has mentioned the role of NAFTA in

spurring migrant workers to emigrate to the US. (The canard over "legal" vs. "illegal" is just that to a Democratic Socialist like me -- these people are workers who do not control or own the means of production. The only thing of value they have to offer is their labor.)

NAFTA (for all you Bill Clinton lovers on DU) had the perverse effects of exporting American jobs (to Mexico with cheaper labor) but also importing cheap labor. Why the latter? Because subsidized American agriculatural exports to Mexico meant that Mexican peasants could no longer survive off farm work. This caused massive internal migrations inside Mexico from the land to the cities. Once there, these newly liberated Mexican proletariat went where the work was, namely the U.S.

I vastly prefer Dems to Repukes, but Bill Clinton (and now Hillary) is\are not the type of Dem I prefer.

[noamnety]

24. Did you mean to say they aren't the type of democrat you prefer?

(I'm confused because I was with you right up until that last line.)

[coalition_unwilling]

26. Ouch - I should read my posts before clicking the 'Post Message'

button. Thanks for the catch. I've now edited my post.

[aquart]

27. Irrelevant. When the dollar is worthless, they'll leave.

Problem solved.

[entanglement]

33. Historically, the bosses have succeeded in channeling working class anger against immigrants

and other convenient scapegoats. The American working class has, unfortunately, fallen for it every time. Even on DU, there are many who fail to understand that nationalist chauvinism and bigotry are NOT the way the working class will win. People are so class unaware and so blinded by their prejudices - they lash out in impotent rage against Mexicans, Indians and Chinese workers without realizing that this is the oldest trick in the book of the bosses.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

34. Don't forget the Irish and Polish!

[Captain Angry]

37. Exactly.

Get two groups of people mad at each other, and neither notices who is manipulating them both.

[sadiesworld]

41. No, the oldest trick in the book is turning an economic issue, i.e.,

cheap labor, into a racial one, i.e., calling those who oppose cheap labor practices "racists".

[entanglement]

52. You misunderstand me entirely

Yours is a defeatist position - in that you reduce the struggles of workers to a mere 'cheap labor' issue. The bigger question is: Why should workers have to fight each other for the crumbs that owners throw them? Why should the means of production rest in such few hands that the mere presence of those perceived as 'outsiders' leads to a reduction in wages or living standards?

You are one of the countless misguided nationalists who fail to understand that (1) Your interests coincide more closely with those of the Mexican laborer than the American capitalist ('our' capitalist) (2) It is impossible to wage a struggle for your rights in isolation, in a single country, for the simple reason that Capital is organized and globally mobile. (3) Race and nationality play a secondary (though not insignificant role) in that they introduce an imaginary, perceived wall of separation between your interests and those of 'other' workers. You will note that I speak entirely from the point of view of self-interest, leaving aside the immorality of racialism.

Now, more than ever, there is a need for international working class unity and solidarity. So the defeatist attitude of "I'm going to get paid less because of that Mexican" should be replaced with "Here is one more potential comrade in the struggle against Capital".

[joeglow3]

43. Read my post above

To see what happened to my family. There is NO boss manipulation there. In fact, it is mainly policed by their union, because no one else will do anything about it.

About 5-7 years ago, Omaha was building out new arena. A local drywalling company was employing illegals. My father and his union contact the company and the general contractor for months. After NOTHING was done, they contact the local (about 6 months after they contacted the other parties). Of course, when the local paper covered in, all parties involved talked about how shocked they were and did not know they had employed illegals.

In short, please don't call me racist when I know firsthand what happend to working class families. While the majority of illegal immigrants come from Mexcio, not all do. It is an illegal immigrant issue and not a race issue.

[silverojo]

38. "Half" is a very conservative number

I'm tired of people coming here illegally being referred to as "immigrants" or "migrants". It's an insult to the REAL immigrants who came here by legal means.

[lancer78]

39. The problem with Lou Dobbs

and most americans is that they cannot see past the next instant, just like the stock market cannot see past this quarter's earnings. We must weigh all our options. Deport all the illegals or allow them to stay.

If you deport all of them, then the factories will just follow them down to Mexico. We will send the factories down there so we don't have any hispanics here. Now, some of you will say this will create jobs for Americans. You are so naive. For every job that a deported hispanic leaves another one is lost because that hispanic's income is no longer being pumped into the economy. My company sells goods to hispanics as well as provide legal documentation services. We employ between 10 and 15 americans that are bilingual. If the hispanics left, these people would lose their jobs. The unemployment rate (not the under-employed rate) is not great enough to offset the departure of 11 million people.

Some of you will say that their income will be replaced because wages would go up. Of course, when wages go up, inflation tends to go up. Therefore, not a thing is gained. Another economic factor is this. Any country with a social security system like ours needs an immigration system to work. Without immigration there is not enough workers in a country to support the retirees at the top. Countries like Japan (which does not allow very many immigrants) is coming to the realization that they will have to change their policies or watch their social safety net implode.

Now, someone said in a post above that hispanics are lazy. All the hispanics I have known were all hard working. The lazy people around here are the white people that take this country for granted. Let me give you an example.

One day, I was invited to do some translating at this job site. When I arrived I noticed about 60 hispanic workers and 5 american workers. This man needed me to translate to the hispanics their hourly wage rate and safety rules. The hispanics were earning $30/hour for construction. When I asked the foreman why there weren't more americans on the job site, he told me that they all called in "sick" because they said it was too cold outside to work. He therefore had to hire a bunch of hispanics to get the job done.

Before everyone here takes my head off I am not saying every white person is lazy. However, with the younger generation I think they have been brainwashed by the M$M to think that they have the "right" to a job. Listen, I know I can do my job better then anybody. My great grandfather came to this country penniless and when he died he ended up with 7 Iowa farms and a house in town. This country was built on hard work. It will not move forward if americans continue to emulate the behavior of Paris, Britney, and President chuckle-nuts.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, I needed to rant a little bit.

[sadiesworld]

45. What a load.

Perhaps you could explain how all those roofing and landscaping factories, for example, are going to move to Mexico? I'd also love to hear more about how wage gains are cancelled out by inflation. Wow, I guess we could all make $2 an hour and see no change in our standard of living! Minimum wage, shminimum wage, huh? Finally, if you're saying that illegal immigrants (you only said Hispanic) are making $30 an hour for construction work, I call bullshit on it. Of course, according to your theory of earnings and inflation, it doesn't really make any difference, does it?!

[EFerrari]

48. I just caught a BookTv segment that challenged that idea

that undocumented workers were depressing wages significantly because they typically go to niche markets.

The study was from an Eastern college. It wasn't Cornell or Columbia, my brain won't give me the name yet.

Here's NYTs:

April 16, 2006
Economic View
Cost of Illegal Immigration May Be Less Than Meets the Eye
By EDUARDO PORTER

CALIFORNIA may seem the best place to study the impact of illegal immigration on the prospects of American workers. Hordes of immigrants rushed into the state in the last 25 years, competing for jobs with the least educated among the native population. The wages of high school dropouts in California fell 17 percent from 1980 to 2004.

But before concluding that immigrants are undercutting the wages of the least fortunate Americans, perhaps one should consider Ohio. Unlike California, Ohio remains mostly free of illegal immigrants. And what happened to the wages of Ohio's high school dropouts from 1980 to 2004? They fell 31 percent.

As Congress debates an overhaul of the nation's immigration laws, several economists and news media pundits have sounded the alarm, contending that illegal immigrants are causing harm to Americans in the competition for jobs.

Yet a more careful examination of the economic data suggests that the argument is, at the very least, overstated. There is scant evidence that illegal immigrants have caused any significant damage to the wages of American workers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/16/business/yourmoney/16view.html?ex=1302840000&en=37239528fc85a76c&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

[underpants]

40. Here is some ACTUAL information

http://www.ilw.com/articles/2007,1219-camarota.shtm

[americanharvest]

42. illegal immigrants is a HUGE security issue...

think about it: having people in our country with no criminal record, no way of knowing who they are or what their past could be is DANGEROUS and is a HUGE security flaw. i am certainly not against immigrants, but come here legally!

[EFerrari]

46. All the 9/11 hijackers came here legally.

And, no Mexican nationals plowed planes into the Towers.

:wow:

[underpants]

47. Welcome to DU- it, for lack of a better phrase, is an inventory problem

but you don't scream at widgets and make them leave no you find a better way of counting them. You manage the problem, this like everything else is NOT a black/white issue it is not all or nothing.

Get them to register (which they will) and then you can track them. I am almost positive that an infusion of technology is sorely needed at the INS too.

I could go on but we need to manage this like we do land management, Indian affairs, the Pentagon, product safety (such as it is) and so on.

[0007]

57. The huge security problem is not with the immigrants, but with

the Americans that are put in office. Rich people have their criminal records expunged all the time. So indeed you're not making much sense in that respect.

You think about it!!

[hunter]

44. Horrors, I'm sure.

As a wedge issue I'm pretty sure this one isn't going to fly the way they hope it will.

The political base of people who are just waking up after falling asleep somewhere in the dank recesses of the twentieth century is getting smaller every day.

The border between the United States and Mexico does not delineate the northern boundaries of "Latin America." If any political party pushes this race button, they lose the entire Southwestern United States and a lot of other places too.

The way to solve the immigration problem is to raise the minimum wage and make certain that undocumented workers are protected to the fullest extent of our labor laws so that they can no longer be abused as a union-busting disposable work force.

[kestrel91316]

50. Here in Los Angeles I suspect it's a LOT higher than 50%.

[sarcasmo]

51. Stopping Corporations from hiring illegals will stop illegal immigration.

[Yupster]

59. Not around here it won't

Illegals here are hired as lkandscapers, roofers, construction workers, busboys, etc. They overwhelmingly work for small businesses and sub-contractors around here. Often for relatives.

[burrowowl]

54. And Asians

I think they may outnumber Mexicans.

[Yupster]

58. Maybe where you are

Not here in Texas