Shooting at New Life Church (Haggard's church, second shooting today)

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

Source: 9news in Denver, CO

This one is in Colorado Springs

COLORADO SPRINGS – Authorities say two to three people were shot on Sunday in the second shooting of the day in a religious organization.


The gunfire erupted in the 10,000-plus member mega-church, New Life Church, around 1:20 p.m., according to authorities.

The El Paso County Sheriff's Office says there are two to three victims, which possibly includes the shooter.

The Associated Press reports four people have been shot outside of the church, but it is not clear if this included the two to three people shot inside the church, as reported by El Paso deputies.

New Life Church was founded by Ted Haggard. Haggard was forced out after admitting in November 2006 to sexual immorality and purchasing methamphetamines from a gay escort.


Read more: http://www.9news.com/news/top-article.aspx?storyid=82473

---

on edit, link to first story from this morning, wtf is going on?

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=82457

MKJ

[niyad]

1. I cannot stand any of these fundies, but this is sad.

[rodeodance]

2. 2 dead per fox

[niyad]

4. isn't that the two from arvada? local news isn't reporting any fatalities yet

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

7. Nevermind, I misunderstood the content of the question. Not much yet on fatalities.

edited
MKJ

[Crunchy Frog]

3. If only they'd had the Ten Commandments posted there...

this need not have happened. Damned secularists!

[XboxWarrior]

5. Could be the Pastor

the church wont let him return to CO?

[davidinalameda]

6. let's make fun of dead people!

whoo hoo!

[Tulum_Moon]

8. Yes! Lets.

Stupid do gooders. How stupid of them to let the homeless sleep there.

:sarcasm:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

9. New Life does that?

MKJ

on edit, just based on what I've heard, especially from former New Life parishoners, I didn't know they provided shelter for the homeless at the church.

[XboxWarrior]

12. No Homeless allowed...

At the New Life.....

But local TV is finally interrupted the golf......

Sounds like the dude headed north 3/4 mile, and is still shooting?

http://www.koaa.com/aaaa_more_local_news/x911469703

this channel may stream in a bit

http://www.krdotv.com/

Gun Shots Fired At New Life Church

Updated: Dec 9, 2007 02:53 PM

COLORADO SPRINGS - NEWSCHANNEL 13 has received reports of possibly two gunmen at New Life Church in northern Colorado Springs.

According to police scanner traffic, police are at New Life Church in search of possibly two suspects, one who may have fired a gun.

Police scanner traffic indicates multiple victims and that many people are hiding throughout the building.

NEWSCHANNEL 13 has unconfirmed reports that police are doing a room by room search of the church, and has asked for a copy of the buildings floor plan.

We have also learned that at least 1 victim transported himself to Penrose Main Hospital in Central Colorado Springs.

Stay with KRDO.

ON EDIT.....

KKTV is streaming......won't interrupt the Bronco's game?

http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/2181747.html

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

13. 2nd edit, thanks for the update. That building is huge.

This sounds really frightening.


MKJ

[niyad]

14. two separate incidents here--the shooting in arvada this morning and the shooting

at new life this afternoon. the one this morning was the one where the guy apparently gained admittance by asking for shelter.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

15. Thanks for clarifying.

I've been in and out, and missed that part of the story.

MKJ

[Crunchy Frog]

10. Not making fun of the dead people.

Only making fun of the people who regularly make similar statements every time ther'es a shooting in a public school. I will point out hypocrisy when I see it.

[davidinalameda]

11. you ever hear of apples and oranges?

didn't think so

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

16. Latest update:

Shooting at New Life Church; suspect 'detained'

COLORADO SPRINGS – Authorities say three to five people were shot on Sunday in the second shooting of the day at a religious organization and the suspect has been detained.


The gunfire erupted in the 10,000-plus member mega-church, New Life Church, just after 1 p.m., according to authorities.

KOAA says the gunman opened fire at the New Life Church as the 12 p.m. service was getting out. Authorities say the shooting occurred outside of the church.

Colorado Springs Police say the three to five victims were taken to local hospitals. The victims' conditions and identities are not known at this time.

http://www.9news.com/news/top-article.aspx?storyid=82473

MKJ

[MindPilot]

18. Hospitals? What do they need hospitals for?

Doesn't Jesus heal?

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MindPilot]

61. I didn't ask about the size of my "arse"

I asked if jesus heals gunshot wounds.

[tom_paine]

83. Sure he does. What, you think Liberal Doctors heal gutshot wounds?

Why do you hate America?

Appendicitis, that's another Jesus heals without the need for Liberal Doctors, who are the enemies of Real Americans.

[spoony]

86. Once again, to be a snarky shit in this thread

requires you to be, not have, but be a gigantic arsehole. And once again, that's putting it mildly.

[MindPilot]

90. So now I'm not only a "gigantic arsehole" but also a "snarky shit"

You are in every thread that has anything to do with Xianity demanding respect for your woo-woo beliefs. Here's a newsflash: You are not getting from me.

Look, every time something like this happens, people praise god for not getting shot, completely ignoring the illogic that god also had to have allowed the deaths or injuries of the victims. The people who were shot and lived will thank god for sparing their lives, completely ignoring the FACT that a team of trauma surgeons at the ER saved their lives, not god.

If you expect respect for that, forget it. But feel free to continue with your name calling, because obviously you are incapable of a cogent argument to support your beliefs.

[Akoto]

17. CNN now says a suspect may have been detained. n/t

[Democrats_win]

19. A.M. shooting on Faith Bible Chapel land--War on Christmas people

They bullied the organizers of the Denver Parade of Lights into allowing a religious float in the parade despite rules against religious themed floats.

Clearly the victims of these shootings were innocent people who didn't deserve what happened.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

21. Both churches are mega churches.

I was going to ask if they're connected in some way, but considering their sizes, it's hard to believe they're not.

MKJ

on edit: so I guess they aren't but they are. :shrug:

Dale Lambert, the assistant director to YWAM says there is no direct link between the YWAM program in Arvada to New Life Church. However, the YWAM in Colorado Springs does work with New Life Church.

edit: Link

http://www.9news.com/news/top-article.aspx?storyid=82473

[Harper_is_Bush]

20. A death penalty society reaps what it sows. n/t

[pipoman]

26. Replace the words

"death penalty" in your post with "fag" and you are Fred Phelps....which is worse?

[Harper_is_Bush]

28. That's a despicable comparison and a cheap attack

There is strong evidence that the death penalty results in more murder, and it can be logically understood.

After all, if the state sends out the message that it's OK to kill someone if you decide they deserve to die, then is it not reasonable to assume that a few misguided souls will take that as just one more excuse to act as judge/jury/executioner themselves?

Your comparison implies that there is some basis in truth that God is punishing the USA because of fags. There is none.

Or do you think there is?

[pipoman]

30. Please direct me to this "strong evidence"

There is strong evidence that the death penalty results in more murder, and it can be logically understood.

As for the "logically understood" that too is something the Phelps clan believe, that their point is logical.

In your first post you said,

A death penalty society reaps what it sows.

Which implies some higher power or karma dealing justice.

I stand by the comparison. Your statement is no less offensive than Phelps and I find him, his family, and his twisted beliefs among the most repulsive on the planet.

[Harper_is_Bush]

32. With pleasure

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=168

I'm a little surprised a progressive wouldn't be aware of this information.

Now that you have been enlightened, you can quit with your despicable comparison of what I'm saying to what Fred Phelps says. Or not. Suit yourself.

There's no "higher power" at work, just simple cause/effect. You inject a society with the belief that it's OK to kill people if you've decided they deserve to die, the result is no surprise.

To me that's logical. What rightwingish slander tactic will you use next? Tell me that Hitler thought killing Jews was logical also, ergo I'm similar to Hitler?

[pipoman]

34. I prefer to take my "strong evidence"

from more than 1 one page study published by a biased source. Any academic studies? Any studies produced by individuals who are willing to stake their reputations on the results by signing their name to it?

The real point is your making this statement in a thread discussing individuals murdered today by a mad man and somehow they had it coming because they were in church? because you think they might believe in the death penalty? Either your post is off topic for this thread or you believe that the victims had it coming, which is it?

[Harper_is_Bush]

38. whatever you "prefer"

and how ever you slice my "evidence", the fact remains your comparison of me to Fred Phelps is despicable.

And your intellectual honesty is in question here, since you are highlighting that todays events are about "individuals", when my comment was about society. I never said these people brought it on themselves, but that is what you say I said. That is a blatent lie, nothing less.

[pipoman]

39. Then what is the purpose of your post in this thread??? N/T

[Harper_is_Bush]

40. ah. I point out your dishonesty, and you counter by asking what my purpose is.

Very well, let's ignore your dishonesty.

My purpose was well stated. A society that employs the death penalty can expect it's population to have less respect for human life. These types of killings, done by individuals who have decided they have the right to decide who lives and who dies, are the result. In essence, they mimic the state in that regard. Do you disagree with that? If so, how exactly?

[pipoman]

42. well..

1. You failed to answer my question.

Either your post is off topic for this thread or you believe that the victims had it coming, which is it?

And you choose to attack me instead.

2. Did you post this comment in any of the threads about the Omaha mall murders? what about VT? I didn't think so (I checked), but you did post this in 2 threads about todays incidents... Interesting you would proclaim me dishonest.

[Harper_is_Bush]

46. I answered your question. You're just being disingenuous.

I clearly stated, in my last post to you, that I believe the policies of American SOCIETY is causing this kind of thing.

You are engaged in a dishonest exercise. Continue. DU'ers can see it for themselves.

[pipoman]

51. Which is

EXACTLY what Phelps' stated message is.

that I believe the policies of American SOCIETY is causing this kind of thing.

In fact I would bet a chunk that he completely agrees with you, he would only exchange the death penalty with tolerance of homosexuality. A different issue, the exact same brand of fanaticism.

[Harper_is_Bush]

55. Ok fine. Don't be honest with me, and continue to compare me to Fred Phelps

I'm done, but our exchange here will define you.

:)

[kestrel91316]

114. Why do you hate America?

Oh, that's right. You're NOT AMERICAN.

[Harper_is_Bush]

47. Not surprisingly, you failed to answer my question:::

you didn't answer my question:

A society that employs the death penalty can expect it's population to have less respect for human life. These types of killings, done by individuals who have decided they have the right to decide who lives and who dies, are the result. In essence, they mimic the state in that regard.

Do you disagree with that? If so, how exactly?

[pipoman]

60. I don't necessarily agree or disagree

I haven't really studied the issue. I will say on it's face I don't completely disagree with the death penalty when looking at anecdotal cases. OTOH as a moral issue I'm not all for it. I have worked in criminal defense including capital cases and have civil libertarian beliefs.

I strongly feel this topic is completely out of place, and in fact offensive in this thread. (As it would be in a thread about VT, Omaha shootings, or a thread about glbt issues.)

[Harper_is_Bush]

62. I made a statement. YOU decided to engage it. You say "I haven't really studied the issue"...

..and that's plain to see, but don't chastise me for making my statement as being offensive when you don't really get what I'm talking about.

You made a knee-jerk reaction to something you admittedly don't know anything about.

I suggest to begin your education, you listen to this audio:

http://www.soundportraits.org/on-air/witness_to_an_execution/

it will give you some insight into the harmful effects of the death penalty. The kind of MENTAL effects it inflicts.

[pipoman]

63. To equate the death penalty

to violence in society in general, I have no problem whether I agree or disagree with your position. To try to make such a point on the day of a tragedy of this magnitude in a thread about the tragedy is reprehensible IMHO.

[Harper_is_Bush]

66. Well, you can sugar coat the events if you wish. I choose to do otherwise...

..and I'm proud of that choice.

Violence will never end if people are afraid to confront the sources of it.

[kestrel91316]

113. He believes, like Fred Phelps, that WE AMERICANS have it coming.

We DON'T beat and stone the gays to death, so God sends death our way.

We HAVE the death penalty, so God sends death our way.

Wow. Talk about being stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place......

[Harper_is_Bush]

142. Who are you referring to when you say "He believes", sir?

[slackmaster]

48. So, Harper_is_Bush, are you saying the Japanese have less respect for human life?

And if so, less than whom?

[Harper_is_Bush]

52. Please don't play stupid games with me

if you have a point, make it. Thx.

[slackmaster]

53. Japan has the death penalty

Does that make the Japanese people have less respect for life than, eh, what are you saying?

[Harper_is_Bush]

57. And......

you're not making any argument or point.

Step your game up, please.

[slackmaster]

76. You can now attempt to put the Japanese on higher moral ground than US citizens

Or you can go crawl under a rock.

[Harper_is_Bush]

88. I don't see any reason to do either of those things

thanks anyway.

[pnorman]

68. The death penalty is very rarely imposed in post-wr Japan

It was invoked in particularly heinous offenses; those that grossly offended the Confucian sensibilities. Even before the Pacific War, it wasn't very common. This isn't to say that the Japanese penal system was particularly "humane", although our own doesn't look all that good in that respect lately.

As for the rest of this thread,I'm not sure I'm going to tale it too seriously.

pnorman

[slackmaster]

77. blah blah blah moral relativism blah blah blah

:nuke:

[kestrel91316]

112. I support the death penalty in certain limited cases (child rape/murder,

multiple murder where mental illness is not a factor, etc). Yet I am fundamentally a pacifist. I never hit first. I hate war. Typical bleeding heart liberal otherwise.

Are you implying that the fact that my country HAS a death penalty automatically turns me into a homicidal maniac?

:crazy:

I want some of that stuff you've obviously been smoking

[Ian David]

81. That's not the real reason why the death penalty increases murders.

It's because being executed by the state gives you notoriety, attention and publicity.

[Mnemosyne]

29. Completely rude post. Harper -is-Bush did not mean anything of the sort.

It's a bible verse and also known as KARMA; what goes around comes around. As ye' sow, ye' shall reap.

I feel terrible about the people killed and injured, but most people involved in these mega-churches are teaching and being taught hatred as non-tolerance of sin. The kids may start out as very decent kids, but are taught to grow up to hate/fear/judge anyone the least bit different from them, anyone that doesn't believe as they do, they have smugly told me, goes to hell. Always with a slight glint of pleasure in their eyes.

They may call it anything but hatred, but you can call a cow a duck and it still doesn't change the fact its a cow.



I wonder who the poor soul is that they pushed over the edge this time.

[pipoman]

33. I find this bit of reason curious

I feel terrible about the people killed and injured, but most people involved in these mega-churches are teaching and being taught hatred as non-tolerance of sin. The kids may start out as very decent kids, but are taught to grow up to hate/fear/judge anyone the least bit different from them, anyone that doesn't believe as they do, they have smugly told me, goes to hell. Always with a slight glint of pleasure in their eyes.

So you believe they got what they deserve based on their beliefs. Funny, that is exactly the Phelps message. A fanatic on the side of religion is no worse than one on the side of secularism. You and Harper can try to justify your hatred for individuals you don't even know, your giggles at the tragedy on people who you disagree with, but it is thinly veiled fanaticism.

BTW I haven't been in a church for anything but a wedding or funeral for years. Mine aren't statements based on my agreement with the victims here just a lack of hatred of those I disagree with.

[Mnemosyne]

64. That is NOT wtf I said at all. And I never had a 'giggle' at such misfortune for ANYONE, ever.

I am saying there is balance in the Universe, neither good nor bad, it just is.

The only true and rare hatred I have really ever known in my life started on Dec. 12, 2000.

My best friend in the world is gay and has been personally persecuted by members of such mega-churches. His own once very close brother, trained his kids to fear and have disgust, disdain and self-righteousness toward one of the most wonderful caring human beings I have ever known.

Just fuck off please, you have no fucking clue what I am talking about, though if you had interest in understanding any other POV than your own, you wouldn't have jumped to such ignorant conclusions of who I am and what I believe.

[pipoman]

65. It seems to me you are the one jumping

to conclusions. Do you know the victims of todays shootings? Have you studied at either of the churches involved? What is your knowledge of the "karma" that these victims had coming to them? How about another bible verse "Judge not lest ye be judged".

Again my comments to Harper are not based on my agreement or disagreement with his overall POV about capital punishment. My comments are based in a belief that the exposition of this here and now is distasteful to put it mildly.

[Mnemosyne]

70. You don't have to 'understand' karma, it

simply is.

I have watched, read and studied the religious 'phenomena' of these churches for many years.

I am not against any person, well, just the neocon hypocrite dictators, only for their hypocrisy and the extensive harm they cause to society as a whole. They are little different than the "Children of God" cult, which I happened to study firsthand back in the early thru mid-1970's. There is a mass mentality involved in these churches, but whether you have studied it or not, it should not be that difficult to see the damage they cause in the name of their "lord".

Churches such as these use the pulpit to indoctrinate the Christian Political Extremist Ideals onto the young and the many empty, insecure, lonely and easily lead people in society now. All done on the backs and now blood, of these fucking corporations calling themselves "churches"

And We the People support these sick misguided beliefs through the allowance of the continuation of the 'Church's' tax free status. This, in turn, perpetuates the same misguided sick beliefs into future generations, guaranteeing money for these 'churches' tax freedom in perpetuity. It's just another way that these corporations can avoid taxes to support our countries needs, not wants. When I have been told that I was very ill because I wasn't "pure enough" to accept the 'holy spirit' yet and that my loved one deserves to die for his "sins", yes, maybe I do become a bit fanatical. I won't disagree on that point.

I've watched these type of religious corporate power rise in my believed country and will not falsely mourn in public for those that would condemn my dear one to death simply for who he loves, and myself for speaking my mind finally. Though my empathy is deep for all of the families involved and affected, including the gunman's, I do not mourn the attention this will receive and possibly wake up some of the apathetic here in our country.

I always stay out of these threads; and now I remember why. I have great compassion for the suffering of any soul/being/heart. I do not feel anything I have said has been disrespectful in regards to the suffering nor of the horror. I do not even hate people like Phelps, I find him sad and pathetic.

I apologize for losing my temper, I try not to very often, some issues do cause a more emotional response than others.

Namaste pipoman.

Peace to these families.

Peace to you,
V

[pipoman]

74. I wish

all disagreements on DU could end on such a note. (Not that I think I really disagree with you on this issue in general, just in the context of this thread).

Happy Holidays

[Mnemosyne]

79. Happy Holidays to you also pipoman!

I wish disagreements ended more like this more often myself! :)

Thanks for trying to understand my side.

Peace to you brother. :hi:

[Harper_is_Bush]

73. Get used to that poster accusing you of saying things you didn't say.

I have.

[Mnemosyne]

80. We resolved it amicably after all. He can listen to reason when not

feeling attacked as I did to him at first.

Have a great Holiday Season, HiB!:hi:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

22. This still sounds bad. And they're already trying to dissuade anyone from thinking there's a

connection.

Even though the same chapter of young missionaries in Colorado Springs worked with New Life. :shrug:

COLORADO SPRINGS - NEWSCHANNEL 13 has talked with a spokesperson at Penrose Hospital who confirms three shooting victims have been brought in. She says one is in critical, one is in fair and one is in good condition. Two were transported by ambulance, while the other was brought in by a private vehicle. It is not know if there are any other victims. Sources tell NEWSCHANNEL 13 two young girls are among the victims of this shooting, which happened just after 1:00 p.m. at New Life Church.

Police also confirm a suspect in the shooting at New Life Church is no longer a threat. It has NOT been confirmed what condition that suspect is in. However, a source tells NEWSCHANNEL 13 this suspect has been shot. Also, as recently as 4:00 p.m., authorities could be seen in a "ready" position with guns drawn. It is not known what threat, if any, is still ongoing.

Buildings on New Life's campus remain on lockdown, as well as Lockheed Martin which is nearby. NEWSCHANNEL 13 has several crew members on scene gathering infomation. Police held a news conference just after 2:30, but were unable to give many facts due to the sensitive investigation. More information is expected to be released soon. They are asking people to please stay away from the area.

Another source is reporting that there appears to be no connection to the shooting early Sunday morning at a mission in Arvada, just outside Denver.

http://www.krdotv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7472137

[Robb]

23. Well, it IS like 70 miles between the two

Not saying it's impossible, just seems a little far to drive and stay angry, especially considering the weather and slow going on the roads... :shrug:

Although I've never been as upset as you would presumably have to be to shoot a bunch of people.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

24. It's all very bizarre. The other church is huge as well, the shooting took place in one

of the buildings on their campus.

It just seems extremely coincidental, but what do I know? MKJ

on edit, no reason to link.

[kestrel91316]

115. That 70 miles is an easy drive on the freeway. They sand and plow

aggressively so the weather isn't a big deal.

[comtec]

25. This is truly horrible

all fundy jokes aside, whomever believes in prayer, send some to the families of the victims, the children, and those insane enough to do this, as they obviously need help, one way or another.

this is turning out to be a rather bad week or so for the fundies.

[ihelpu2see]

27. Can we now have gun control?? after this and the Mall shooting??

Gun control now!!!

[Pavulon]

31. The armed man who killed the shooter

with return fire did an excellent job controlling his weapon.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

87. Pssst,

It was an armed woman.

Just keeping the record straight.

MKJ

[Pavulon]

137. It was breaking..

when I made the post. But man or woman, still prevented a bigger loss of life.

[RamboLiberal]

37. And how will gun control work?

Tell me how you will implement it? Yeah like Prohibition and the Drug Wars worked!

[ihelpu2see]

50. so how does it work in Canada or Great Britain? Both modern countries with

a fraction of the fire arm murder rate that we do!!

[RamboLiberal]

93. I think both have a population that thinks much differently than U.S.

Your never going to get many in this population to give up their firearms or to live under laws like Great Britain or Canada including this poster.

[ihelpu2see]

133. I don't think that is so. We live in a country where you can be pulled over

by the police for not having a seat belt on. That is clearly an illegal law. But no one fights it.

[provis99]

136. Canada and Britain are among the most murderous societies

in the industrialized world. Your point is a weak one. What difference does it make to a victim if they're shot or blugeoned to death, like that multiple serial killer in Canada, Robert Pickton, did to his 60+ victims?

[Swede]

143. Yeah,we had just as many murders in Canada as Chicago.

What's up with that?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

[slackmaster]

49. We have lots of gun control now

If you think we should have more, please be specific about what controls you would add, how you would like to see them implemented, and how their success or failure would be measured.

[ihelpu2see]

54. Both the Mall shooting earlier this week and the Church shooting today with

Assault rifles or semi-auto hand guns. So, lets get the assault rifle ban back. ReCall the republicant congress let it laps...

[benEzra]

91. That law didn't ban anything.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=152327&mesg_id=152796

It just raised prices on some handgun magazines, and handed Congress to the repubs on a platter...

[RamboLiberal]

97. Exactly - that was a stupid law that did diddly except

ban cosmetic features of some rifles and make pre-ban high cap magazines a bit more expensive to buy but still available nonetheless.

And keep a segment of voters who should be voting Democrat to voting Republican, many of which we'll never get back.

[ihelpu2see]

132. It banned the sk rifle that was used in the mall, if I recall correctly..nt

[benEzra]

134. SKS's weren't affected, no.

It banned the sk rifle that was used in the mall, if I recall correctly..nt

SKS's weren't affected, no. My wife owns one, a 1952 Tula, that she bought in 1995 or 1996 for $99:



Like all imported rifles, SKS's are subject to the Bush the Elder import regulations (18 USC 922r et seq), which make it a felony to make certain changes if you don't keep track of the arcane Parts Count Rule, but their status wasn't affected by the 1994 ban. If you abide by the parts count rule, you can swap the fixed magazine for a detachable magazine, swap the rifle into a more modern looking stock, etc. My wife's is original except for the scope, though.

FWIW, I believe that the SKS is the most popular centerfire rifle in U.S. homes nationwide, with something like seven million sold over the last two decades.

Early reports did say it was an SKS, but it does now appear that the rifle was used in the mall shooting was a GP-WASR carbine imported by Century, which is a non-automatic civilian AK made in Romania. Like all civilian AK's, WASR's were not banned by the 1994 "AWB", and were imported and sold during the ban on the same basis as any other imported civilian rifle.

I own a Century-imported Romanian AK, a 2002 model; circled areas show how my ban-era rifle differs from a pre-'94 or post-'04 model:



That's also a ban-era magazine, FWIW. A ban-era WASR would have had the same features in the circled areas. The gas block on a post-'04 rifle would stick out a little more on the bottom, and the muzzle would most likely be slanted instead of vertical.

[RamboLiberal]

35. According to ABC an armed guard killed the gunman

A gunman killed two staff members at a missionary training center near Denver early Sunday after being told he couldn't spend the night. About 12 hours later, a gunman fatally shot a person at a megachurch in Colorado Springs before a guard killed him, police said.

The gunman at the New Life Church was shot and killed by a church security guard after entering the church's main foyer with high-powered rifle shortly before 1 p.m. and opening fire, Colorado Springs Police Chief Richard Myers said.

It was not immediately known whether the Colorado Springs shooting was related to the crime in Arvada, a Denver suburb about 65 miles to the north. Authorities in Arvada said no one had been captured in the shootings there.

A church member died of wounds inflicted by the gunman, Senior Pastor Brady Boyd said. Two others were shot and wounded at the church, where hundreds of people were milling about and parents were picking up their children from the nursery.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3975611

[Critters2]

67. The church has ARMED security?!!!!

Thanks, but I'll just stick to my small, friendly congregation. What kind of a church has armed security?

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

69. A church that wants to protect its money!

and keep the riff-raff out.

[Critters2]

71. Churches aren't supposed to keep riff-raff out. nt

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

72. Your right, however

I don't think "New Life" is the type of church you would attend.

[Critters2]

75. I think you're right. nt

[Ian David]

82. The guard is for those occasions when god is moving in a" mysterious way".

The sort of "mysterious way" that might lead those of weak faith to believe that god doesn't protect his followers at The Church of the Fabulously Reverend Ted Haggard.

[pipoman]

92. It sounds like the "guard"

was in fact a volunteer female parishioner with a concealed weapons permit. The pastor said that the church does not have paid armed security.

[Critters2]

99. Okay. What kind of parishioner brings a concealed gun

to church?

[pipoman]

105. well..

One who donates their time acting as a security guard while there? One whom (I would guess) everyone (except the shooter) is glad was there yesterday?

[Marie26]

106. A smart one

Apparantly she heard about the earlier shooting & volunteered to guard the entrance during the church service.

[kestrel91316]

117. One who anticipates an attack by those godless atheists or

godless Muslims any day now.

Oy. Talk about trouble coming out of left field......

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

36. Apparently, the suspect was shot by a church security guard. n/t

Colorado Springs Police Chief Richard Myers confirmed at a 5:40 p.m. press briefing that a church security guard shot and killed the gunman.

MKJ

[Froward69]

41. who ever heard of an armed

guard at church???

[RamboLiberal]

44. When you have a church that size and collections with a lot of $$$$

Probably not a bad idea. I'll be curious as this story unfolds if we hear more about the security at mega-churches.

[RamboLiberal]

98. Apparently the pastor feels the need for a personal guard

during services. Make of it what you will.

The pastor went on to say that because of the actions of the armed security guard "hundreds of lives were saved" and he acknowledged that it could have been much worse.

Boyd says his head of security came to him Sunday morning after the news of the shooting at Youth With a Mission in which two people were killed and two were injured and the gunman fled the scene. The head of security suggested ramping up security for the day, according to Boyd.

He says the armed guard, who has a law enforcement background and was dressed in plain clothes, is a regular worshipper at New Life Church and generally attends one service to worship and then provides security at the second service. He says she is normally assigned to defend him as his personal bodyguard during the service.

http://www.9news.com/news/top-article.aspx?storyid=82503

[Critters2]

100. Well, I'm a pastor, and I'd resign before I'd accept armed body gurads

following me around. Jesus was quite explicit about how we handle risks to our lives. And he didn't mention armed security.

[piedmont]

116. Well, they were awfully smart to have an armed guard, weren't they?

They had knowledge of what happened 12 hours earlier, and a woman with a CCW permit offered to stand guard.

[boricua79]

43. A Christian drive-by?

Gimme that collection plate, fool. Put your hands up in the air, and wave them like you just don't care. Jesus...it's your birthday...wot wot wot!:rofl:

[INDIA]

59. uh...haha?? n/t

[boricua79]

84. you have to be in the community

it's an urban thing. :)

Take care.

[Nye Bevan]

146. Stephanie, 18, and Rachael, 16, of Denver, were killed in the shooting

The sisters were involved in a summer outreach organized by New Life Church and a Youth With a Mission ministry that rents space on the New Life campus.

"It teaches you that life is precious," the girls' uncle, Mark Schaepe of Lincoln, Neb., told The Gazette of Colorado Springs.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-10-colo-shootings_N.htm


Take your :rofl: and go shove it up your moronic ass.

[gristy]

45. There are 8,000 murders by handgun in the U.S. every year

Kill 6 white folks in church and go to the head of the class, I guess.

[spoony]

56. I trust you were similarly objecting in the Omaha mall threads, too

[autorank]

78. K*R What a tragic event this is. What the heck is goingon? n/t

[tom_paine]

85. Here's my guess. Living in Tyranny, even for those who don't realize it

is causing the mental "waters in which we swim" to heat up.

We are not free. In the end, strip away what material wealth we have, and we are the Russians.

We are the Chinese. We are the 1930s Germans.

We work for Bushie Party Comrades, and we hope that they will let some crumbs (or at least some urine) to trickle down from them to us.

Our Rulers now open and contemptuously view us at bottom as the French Aristocracy did in 1780, as little more than dumb animals to be pushed this way and that by lies and half-truth we are too dumb to see through.

While it is true that hardly anybody thinks about it in these specific terms, that doesn't matter. Most people don't understand how they (we) have been deeply reprogrammed by the greatest engine of psychological manipulation that ever was, the Bushie Lie Machine, and yet most people behave and hold Conventional Wisdoms, even when they are demonstrably false, that the Bushies have reprogrammed them with

(and I would be remiss here if I did not point out this was only possible because for thirty years our Democratic Leadership remained and remains clueless to this, and it this clueless and complete non-resistance to this Bushie psychological warfare that has allowed it to succeed and cement itself so thoroughly)

So what does this all have to do with Crazy Shooters? The waters of tyranny (or whatever you want to call them) warm and then boil. People who, if they lived in a Free Country where at least there was some small remiss that everyone was in it together striving for a better future - no I am not talking about Communism, which is really another form of tyrannical Bushevism but with a different economic rationale, just post WWII America (1945-2000, our greatest era ever), are giving in to despair.

As I said, I think it works like that, at a subconscious level like all Bushie reprogrammings and good advertising, even if the individual has never had a thought of this specific issue. But that's my take on it.

Like all human endeavors for good or ill, there is not a single responsible factor.

But is this phenomena, which will likely get worse (probably not in a straight line downward, though), is one of them, IMHO.

[autorank]

101. Thank you! I didn't really expect my ? to be answered - bookmarked!

The program is the programming because that covers up what's behind the program - the aggregation of wealth by people who don't think and never will realize that they have enough and that it can last.

Your points about our status vis a vis our rulers is so excellent - We are nothing to them is how I put it. Just zero. The comparison to the French court is perfect. They brought an awful change upon themselves.

I also agree and note that the level of propaganda is so relentless and false, it creates a profound tension among it's victims, almost everybody. I think that most people are awake enough to know that they need to resist and distrust is about the only means, that plus living as well as possible.

I see the global eco-crisis as a positive unifying force. The recognition of this could provide a step up in consciousness which then would apply to multiple issues. If that doesn't do it, we are truly toast.

There are so many lies to undo, we don't have the time. In the past 110 years, we've overthrown 14 governments, mostly at the behest of corporate interests. After the Spanish-American War, it was no longer acceptable to call the takeovers what they are - military action in the interest of corporate interests. Hence, the "big lies" of nationalism - we're under attack, etc.

Even with the level of lies and theatrics, almost all Americans would oppose strongly the following: use of the military for anything other than self defense; rational environmental policies; fair and open elections; rational national health programs; etc. There's still hope but the intermediaries who block that need to go.

------------------------

On this shooting, the shooter was apparently the church security guard. Also, of note, this is the church where the previous leader (Haggard) was caught in a relationship with a male body builder-escort (the two did speed, at least, on a regular basis). The congregation is now twice traumatized - the trusted authority was a complete liar and the church structure is no longer a safe place. The safety factor is a key point. Returning to the site of a major trauma complicates things for the victims unless it's handled very carefully. I guess these folks are representative of the larger dilemma - major leaders lying, distorted doctrine, and violence. I wish them the very best. I'm just realizing the depth of the problems that they face.

[Froward69]

89. Can anyone say Hypocrites?

ya know after watching the news

it occurred to me that the first sooting in Arvada would not have happened if the "Christians" had not turned away someone in a Blizzard. at this time the police believe the 2 shootings are related. of course no one will admit that the fundamentalists are Hypocrites. and if were truly following the doctrine of Christ, helped the shooter to keep warm and given him a place to stay. He never would have snapped. Four people would still be alive, and both shootings never would have happened.

[RamboLiberal]

94. How do you know that if given shelter he wouldn't have snapped

Perhaps those at the door sensed something was not right with this person and refused to let him in with good reason. Do you shelter any stranger that comes to your door? I sure wouldn't!

On edit from Denver Post:

In Arvada, Tiffany Johnson, 26, was killed at a Youth With a Mission dormitory when she declined to provide shelter to a man in his 20s seeking a place to sleep. As Johnson started to offer him alternatives, the man opened fire, killing her and Philip Crouse, 24.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_7678737

[Froward69]

140. the the onsaught of hypothermia can make you loose rationality.

by 5pm the reporting of his 1) asking to stay as he did not have a place to be cept his car. and 2) that they were REMOVING him At about 12;30 the night before. both have been omitted.

The post is the only news outlet i have seen reporting alternatives, their are not many at that time of night.

and it was 13* and a blizzard. living in your car and the downtown shelter is closed. i have been there out on the street with those temps. i was not as despondent, nor armed but the cold and snow with out some one seeming to care... anyone would snap.

[pipoman]

145. There is reporting now

that he has been sending threatening hate messages to these people. His residence is in the area where he lives with his NEUROSURGEON parents. He had the money and ability to buy 1000 rounds of ammo, a gun, a car, and enough gas to drive 70 miles to another church to murder a 16 year old and a 18 year old "hypocrites". What a complete load of shit and hate you are spewing.

[Froward69]

149. AND that he was dismissed from the group long ago.

so it would APPEAR he set them up. KNOWING he would be turned away... Most likely because he had seen that behavior Repeatedly from that group of "Christians". Sorry having dealt with that mindset, and witnessing first hand myself the misuse of Christ to justify their picking and choosing what PARTS of the doctrine to follow. the TRUTH is Money is their God.
This is not hate i am spewing. I am sorry this happened. however glossing over the actual actions of the Fundamentalists. is part of how this happened. their is no way on gods green earth anyone from that group ever asks, "What would Jesus do." Jesus wouldn't turn away ANYONE, no matter what. Actions speak louder than words.

[pipoman]

150. This isn't a shelter

again from what I have read, not assuming to know exactly what happened (as you are), the people at the first location were going to try to find a place for him, he didn't wait. He didn't need a shelter he was there to kill people. You have, in your posts, acted as an apologist and justifier for this clown's actions. Do you advocate and support murderers of everyone with whom you disagree? What a despicable position you have taken. As for "what Jesus would do", I don't presume to know. Are you an apologist for the Omaha Mall shooter, and the VT shooter too? They had good reasons (in their own twisted minds) for their actions too, they must be real heroes in your world huh?

[Froward69]

152. Thank you for the assumptions.

no Killing is justified in my book. what you are ignoring... in fact defending is, in this ONE case. The actions of a CULT that uses a doctrine to lure young Women. exclude young men. and gather as much money as possible.

When I find a homeless person in my apartment building I will let them stay inside till morning. especially in a BLIZZARD. I do not care if they have a car or neurosurgeon parents. They are HUMAN.

for every action there is a reaction... thats all i am saying.

Glossing over that this was a "CHURCH GROUP" and not a cult. still does not make what we read in the paper any more or less true. hence you are attempting to get it out of me...
In my view, the CAUSE OF COLUMBINE, WAS THE LIFE LONG MEDICATION of those two boys. they grew up on pharmaceuticals. the press reported that once. then it was absent parents, then bullying, then Abortion???
PUUULLLLEASE.

funny how pharma got ruled out so quickly?

back to topic.
just like the part of this story of how at the initial shooting, the one Female was being helped by THREE males to remove this guy. They did not know his background or he had a car. or a gun apparently. yet they still were throwing him out into the cold...

thats some fine "Christian-sanity":sarcasm:

[RamboLiberal]

95. Self Delete

[RamboLiberal]

96. I say good job by the female security guard

Also Monday at a press conference in Colorado Springs, pastor Brady Boyd of the New Life Church said the security guard who shot the gunman was purposely stationed in the lobby of the church after hearing about the earlier shooting.

When the shots were fired "she rushed toward the attacker and took him down in the hallway," he said.

The attacker never got more than 50 feet inside the building.

"She probably saved over 100 lives," Boyd said.

He described her as a highly trained volunteer member of the church with a law enforcement background whose role was to provide security.He said she was not wearing a uniform and is licensed to carry a gun.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-09-missionariesshot_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

And I do feel badly about those who were killed - apparently they were all young people. The two in this shooting were teenage sisters. How tragic!

[mainegreen]

102. Why the heck are some of you laughing about this?

It's really not funny when people get murdered, Republican or Democrat, Black or White, Christian, Hindu , Atheist or what have you.

Go look at the pictures of those who died or have 'bullets in their necks', some who are barely not kids and then try and laugh about it.

Seriously, WTF?

This shit is never funny.

[Yael]

103. Yep. And then they want to know why they have no credibility....

Sad, isn't it?

[Swede]

104. Yeah,but they're white Christians.

There are some real lowlifes coming out today. The Works sisters were 16 and 18 years old,far to young to die.

[RamboLiberal]

109. I'm with you - this is nothing to joke about

Sadly 4 young people are dead.

[Nye Bevan]

153. Some DUers have no problem whatsoever with white Christians being murdered

Absolutely disgusting.

[pipoman]

107. I would like to ask those of you who are questioning the need

for guards at church..

What is the last venue of ANY KIND which included 1,000 people (much less 7,000) which you attended that didn't have security on hand???

Just wondering..

[Critters2]

108. Why are people who believe they've gained eternal life,

afraid of gunmen? Seriously. I never understand this desperate fear of death on the part of Christians. I say this as a Christian...who DOES NOT want armed security at my church!

[RamboLiberal]

110. And why do you fear armed security?

Do you want to do away with police in your community? Is your community different than your church? Sadly any venue with a large group of the public probably needs armed security just in case.

[Critters2]

111. In case of what?

In case of death? Why would this be an issue for people who believe in eternal life?

All the violence won't end until someone refuses to participate.

I refuse to participate.

[pipoman]

118. I realize their are Christians who

refuse medical assistance too, just not many.

[Critters2]

119. I refuse to participate in violence.

There aren't too many of us, either.

[RamboLiberal]

121. So would you sit by and let more be murdered

cause you won't participate in violence even if you had the means to stop the murderer?

[Critters2]

123. Behaving violently doesn't stop violence.

We've been doing that since we started walking on two legs. It hasn't made anything better. it's time to try something else. Something non-violent.

[RamboLiberal]

127. I think some people have tried your way

And just gotten run over by those who believe in violence. Sorry but I can't quite go your route - I'm more in line with the female security guard who prevented any more innocent people being killed - whether or not they believed in eternal life.

[Critters2]

128. It seems to have worked for Ghandi.

Or didn't you know that India is a free nation now?

[Countdown_3_2_1]

135. Ghandi's tactics worked against civilzed men. Against men bent on murder? NO.

Ghandi's peaceful demonstrations worked against the British.
They would not have worked against the Nazis.
They will not work against crazed hate-filled murderers.

There is a time for all things.
There is a time for peace and there is a time to fight.
This was the time to fight.

[pipoman]

130. An admirable position

which I simply cannot take, especially when I put myself in the position of the father who was wounded and both of his daughters died in the attack. I have no idea his position, only mine when I empathize.

[kestrel91316]

138. Good for you. If we all had this mindset, NONE of us would have to

fear this crap.

Let there be peace on earth, and let it begin with ME........

[RamboLiberal]

120. Just cause someone believes in eternal l life

doesn't mean they want their ticket punched early.

[Critters2]

124. Someone who believes in eternal life,

doesn't believe in a "ticket".

[RamboLiberal]

122. ah but you never answered why you fear armed security

and if you'd do away with police in your community?

[Critters2]

125. Armed police are a form of violence. I'd look for other ways to

solve the same problems.

[RamboLiberal]

126. Then never call 911 if your home is ever invaded n/t

[Tejas]

144. you don't fear getting shot in the eyeball much, do you?

Getting injured can royally suck, you do know that don't you? Maimed, disfigured, partial or complete paralysis, permanent chronic pains, etc etc etc....they suck.

It's not just about death.

[Leo 9]

129. Colo. Church Gunman `hated Christians'

Colo. Church Gunman `hated Christians'

Monday December 10, 2007 10:16 PM


By JUDITH KOHLER

Associated Press Writer

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) - The deadly shooting sprees at a megachurch and a missionary training school were believed to have been carried out by the same person - a 24-year-old suburban Denver man who ``hated Christians,'' a law enforcement official told The Associated Press.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly about the investigation, identified the gunman as Matthew Murray, the son of a neurologist who is a prominent researcher on multiple sclerosis.

Five people - including a gunman - were killed, and five others wounded Sunday in the two eruptions of violence 12 hours and 65 miles apart.

The first attack took place at a youth missionary training center in the Denver suburb of Arvata; the other occurred at the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, where the gunman was shot and killed by a security guard.

The law enforcement official said Murray was believed to be the gunman in both attacks. Murray did not appear to have a criminal history but ``hated Christians,'' the official said. The official did not know Murray's religion, if any.

snip

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-7141859,00.html

[joshcryer]

131. Security Guard was just on local TV here! What a hero.

[ChazII]

139. Since he hated Christians, is this a hate crime?

[rucky]

148. That's the question of the day. n/t

[insleeforprez]

151. Yes

absolutely, to the letter, this is a hate crime.

[Stump]

141. Kudos to the guard...

She is a true hero in my book.

[democrat2thecore]

147. With the ammo on the guy - the lady saved A LOT of lives -nt