Grand Canyon made by Noah's flood, book says

[maxrandb]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/01/08/MNGOI452ET8.DTL

This is why * is so scary! I'm not a deeply religious man, but I do attend church and try to follow the "love thy neighbor", "be modest" type teachings of Jesus Christ, unlike some so-called Xtians. This is just competely silly. If science does not back you up, simply change the truth so you can fit it all nicely into your beliefs.

Below is snipped from the story. Note the guys last quote. "Since the canyon cannot be more than a couple of thousand years old according to the bible......WTFO?

- Now, however, a book in the park's bookstores tells another story. On sale since last summer, "Grand Canyon: A Different View," by veteran Colorado River guide Tom Vail, asserts that the Grand Canyon was formed by the Old Testament flood, the one Noah's Ark survived, and can be no older than a few thousand years.

- The book, which sells for $16.99, includes essays from creationists and theologians. Vail wrote in the introduction, "For years, as a Colorado River guide I told people how the Grand Canyon was formed over the evolutionary time scale of millions of years. Then I met the Lord. Now, I have a different view of the Canyon, which according to a biblical time scale, can't possibly be more than a few thousand years old."

[Faygo Kid]

1. Screwballs. Nuts. FReepers will dissect.

If they find this, this will be a 1,000+ post on Free Republic. Thanks for the entertaining post.

[maxrandb]

10. They Probably already have, but

Doesn't strict belief in the bible make us all "incestuous". I mean, if we all had the same mother and father who "begot" us, does that not make my wife "technically" my sister? Yuckkk!

Oh well, the funny thing is that if people actually followed the teachings of Christ, there WOULD NOT be a Repuke Party.

[TrogL]

15. I still wonder where Cain's wife came from

[Stuckinthebush]

27. She was an ape

Now, open your hymnals to page 123...

[RebelOne]

29. Supposedly from the land of Nod.

Wherever that was. I guess there was a second garden of eden there.

[monobrau]

48. I can never get that question answered

Just one of many logical questions that send fundies off in a huff.

[kitkatrose]

93. You either?

I asked my Sunday School teacher, and she said she'd have my answer next time I saw her. Next Sunday, she told me that there were other people far away from Adam and Eve. I then asked where did they come from, and I still haven't gotten the answer yet. :shrug: that was seven or so years ago.

[Capablanca]

65. That is easy to explain

The gene pool was pure in the beginning. Over time the pool began to have more and more defects so marrying someone with very similar genes allows a much greater risk of serious mutations. Cain married his sister and it is clearly documented in the OT that this was common to marry within the family.

It was not until Moses was given the law that this changed and for good reason. You see the Bible is very logical.

[ProfessorGAC]

69. Thank You. I Think

Gee, that clears it up completely! Or not.
The Professor

[GCP]

77. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

To the original post and to yours.

[foreigncorrespondent]

115. But then...

...if Cain married his sister, and then they had kids, and those kids married each other, and so on and so on it goes, then we are all in fact related to one another, and are infact still marrying our kin folk today. Where is the sanctity of marriage in that? LOL

[Venomous_Rhetoric]

104. you don't know?

The Bible only deals with Gods creation. Nowhere in the bible does it say there weren't other humans. Obviously, she was from another tribe.

You may find this interesting. When god created Adam and Eve, he created them in his own image.
Does this make you think God looks like us?
Some old guy with a long white beard and a big cane wearing robes?
What that means, is in the beginning, we looked like God.

When Adam and Eve sinned, eating from the tree of knowlage, they became aware, and were naked. Lucifer, the fallen angel managed to corrupt Gods creation, namely us, and the earth, this whole universe.
God gave them clothes of Flesh. which symbolicly is our sin

Interpretaion says that in the beginning, we were spiritual, like god, later he gave us our human form. In this form, we as humans wore our sin. The theory is, our spirit is separate from us, our physical body is our sin. "no flesh shall enter his kingdom"
To make a long story short, our only way back into the kingdom of god, and everlasting life is to follow the ways of Christ, during our time on earth. It's our way out from the sin. Salvation.

I'm not the religious type, but thats how it goes sorta, I used to study mythology and interpretation years ago, I've forgotten most of it.

There is alot of symbolism in the bible, so reading it and just seeing the literal words confuses people.

If you google, you should be able to find some sites that will show you these symbolic meanings from non- religious studies.

[LiberalFighter]

133. If god made man in his own image

Then why did god make a penis for man? There wasn't a need for a penis if woman had not been created yet. An opening is all that would had been required to urinate.

[Zhade]

136. Wow - so God is a hermaphrodite?

I mean, if he made Adam and Eve in his image...

[Venomous_Rhetoric]

99. evolution

"if we all had the same mother and father who "begot" us, does that not make my wife "technically" my sister? Yuckkk!"

The evolution theory says exactly that. At one time, there was only 2 of a species. before that one, one, so you were literly screwing yourself?
LoL
What other theory is there, that aliens beamed down a whole civilization?
It's rather hard to believe that a mating pair of anything and everything suddenly crawed out of a green slime pool. The odds of that happening once is beyond calculation. For it to happens millions of times (considering all the different species of animals) is laughable.

[ozymandius]

95. I have a book that says a wolf blew down a house made of straw. nt

[HawkerHurricane]

2. Old news.

Young Earth Creationists have been saying for years that every geological feature on Earth can't be more than 6000 odd years old, since that's how old the Earth is (according to Archbishop Usher, who calculated out all the 'begats' in the Bible). Since the Bible says the Earth was created in September of 4004 BC, NOTHING can be older than that...
So, any and all geologic features must have been formed in the great flood, and any explaination involving more time must be false.
Anti Science nonsense.

[lazarus]

31. Bishop Usher said specifically

The earth was created the morning of October 22, 4004 BC. Which isn't true, as I slept in that day.*













*thanks to Harlan Ellison for that joke.

[yellowcanine]

79. Did he not also say 11 am?

also, which calendar was the good bishop using? This would be an important detail.

[lazarus]

131. I believe he said 11 AM

And again, I slept in that day, so he's obviously wrong. :D

Not sure which calendar he was using, however.

[kayell]

3. There is an inspirational section in national parks bookstores?

:wtf: "In part to appease some outraged Grand Canyon employees, the book was moved from the natural sciences section to the inspirational reading section of park bookstores. "


And more that really gives a good idea of what we are up against:

"Last summer, the Park Service ordered the reinstatement of three plaques bearing Bible verses that were erected at Grand Canyon National Park in 1970 by a group called the Evangelical Sisterhood of Mary. Alston called for their removal last summer after a complaint by the American Civil Liberties Union.

Park Service Deputy Director Donald Murphy, who ran the California state parks department under former Gov. Pete Wilson, ordered the brass plaques be returned and sent the group a letter apologizing for "any intrusion."

Barna said Murphy had overruled the Grand Canyon superintendent because he and the agency's regional attorney were not sufficiently well versed in Constitutional law. "

I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!

[kysrsoze]

75. Isn't this one of the new California textbooks?

He he! :hurts:

[Trajan]

4. Scientific measurement ...

concludes that the Grand Canyon is millions of years old ....

Anyone is free to ignore science ... But is it wise to do so ??? ...

I think not ....

[DUreader]

5. Also, Hasn't The Entire Southwest Been Under Water Near 30 Times

I recall there is evidence of some cycle of ocean level which has

submerged the whole area over and over again.

[kayell]

8. The Grand Canyon was created by Gawd to test

your true level of faith. :eyes:

[yellowcanine]

13. That is pronounced "Gawd - dah" by the fundies.

If you want to do an authentic fundy impression - you have to start pronouncing it "Gawd-dah".

[yellowcanine]

14. And Gawd-dah also planted all of those fossils, btw.

Gawd-dah only wants people with faith enough to deny what they see with their eyes and reason with their brains. As Gawd-dah's servant Ronald Reagon said, "Facts are funny things." - a paraphrase of the well known anti-intellectual plea, "Don't confuse me with the facts!" Tom Delay also is a creationist, in case you need another reason to distrust him.

[kayell]

30. Around here it is pronounced Gaaaaaw-ud

but I don't want to wear out my a key.

[Cicero]

103. I heard it by was Paul Bunyan's axe

... I just keep wondering about him and that big blue ox. Hmmm... :evilgrin:

Later,

[kcwayne]

6. Oh goody, goody

Since the park sevice feels compelled to cater to visitors spirtual views, I will finally have the chance to promote my spirtual view of the Canyon's creation. It was created by space aliens, that changed the oil in their spaceship, and that oil was such a strong acid on earth, that it melted away all that rock.

I have the proof of this just like the bible. See, I was inspired by god to write this down in a language that no one understands, so that people could tell the story for 1000 years to an audience that does not have a clue of what is being said. Since the story is holy (because I say so), it will be accepted as the truth.

Oh, and I will publish my book and put it in the park center for only $14.95, since it is a newly revealed religion I thought a discount should apply.

For you doubters out there, be forewarned that I have just as much proof that the aliens created Grand Canyon as the Bible has. I wrote the book, I know where the proof is, smarty pants. And for you scientific types that want to get the discussion all bogged down in facts and demonstrable truth, my religion doesn't believe in that, and you better be careful or the aliens will come back and change their oil on your house!

[Ripley]

11. LOL. Thanks for that kcwayne!

You beat me to it. However, I was thinking of using Carl Sagan's story about the invisible dragon. You see the invisible dragon could make volcanos erupt and shift oceans of water, too.

:crazy:

Actually, I was at the Petroglyph National Monument in New Mexico recently and frankly some of the glyphs looked very much like star charts and spaceships. But I guess they were just angels.

I did not see any "alternate" theories of basic science in the small parks shop there...I saw only t-shirts, trail maps and geology and anthropology books. Oh, and a National Parks "monopoly" game.

[Tansy_Gold]

88. Many of them ARE star charts

A friend of mine did her master's thesis on them. She catalogued photographs of hundreds of petroglyphs, taken over the past 25 years or so, and identified which stars were which, what season the glyphs were made based on the position of certain stars, etc.

I wish I had a link for you, but I'm not sure she ever put anything on the net.

[Ripley]

118. Very interesting.

However, the frustrating thing about those petroglyphs near Albuquerque is that along with the Pueblo Indian's markings from 1300 AD there are drawings OVER them of Christian crosses made by Spaniards in the 1600's, who also destroyed a lot of the pueblos. It appears that people have been using Christian symbols for destruction for a long time and in many places. Sad.

[EstimatedProphet]

12. The whole thing is kind of absurd, isn't it?

Science is a procedure. It is a methodology that works. Why do we know it works? Because we can see it working. We have proof.The fact is, we KNOW that the Grand Canyon is 5-7 million years old. We KNOW it, because we have proved it, and tested the proof. Now people come along and debate the proof based on the fact that they don't like the result. This is the equivalent of the famed arguing tactic of sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming LALALALALA at the top of their lungs, then claiming they didn't hear what the debate points were.
You simply can't pick and choose which principles of science you will pay attention to, any more than you can pick and choose which laws to which you should be held accountable. That's the biggest problem I have with the Fundamentalists- they want to pick and choose what science is right and wrong based on their beliefs. If they rejected science outright I could muster more respect for them, but I don't see them giving up their cars and TVs and access to technology that science has given them. If you don't believe in science, that's your choice, but you can't go through and say I believe in this principle, but not this one, even though both of them have been verified by the same method. That's like saying I believe addition works, but not subtraction.
Now if only we could get the courts, agencies, etc. to see this, then they'd realize that what they are doing is insuring the delusional get equal time. Delusion isn't a valid viewpoint.

[calimary]

50. Creationists are probably creationists because they failed science class.

But they have great justification.

Well, maybe we should start forcing other belief-system theories out there. If this guy can have his creationism bit about Noah's flood, what about that space aliens story, then?

Maybe we need to pile on with a series of theories just as berzerko as theirs. Well, we have as much proof to present, to back up our theories, as they do.

And I say this as a lifelong Catholic.

[xxqqqzme]

101. I want a poster of this

n/t

[Stuckinthebush]

28. Whoa, kcwayne!

I didn't even see your theory when I posted mine below:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=304012&mesg_id=304302&page=

I think that perhaps we can triangulate here and present overwhelming evidence of the alien theory!

[kcwayne]

68. Works for me

we can have about 30 versions of our Bible, oh hell, lets do 100 just to make it interesting and one up the Christians. My revelation will be the "old testament", since I posted almost two hours before you, and in alien space/time continuum thats about 30 billion human years. Your revelation will be the "new testament", that way I can leave all the redemption and mystical resurrection stuff to you, it bores me.

But now, the price of the book we put into the park service centers has to go to 31.25, since we have evolved the revelation and its worth more.

BTW, use the word "revelation" instead of "theory". When you use words like theory, some nerd pack scientific geek will want you to cite an equation or two. Revelations work a lot better because you just have to come up with anything that fits the moment, and proof or repeatability don't matter since God works in mysterious ways.

[ProfessorGAC]

70. It's Much Simpler Than That

I dropped a quarter in the Colorado River. It went downstream and i wanted to find it so bad that i had to dig up that much area until i found it.

No alien acid. Just me with a shovel and a lot of time on my hands. Took me almost 2 weeks.
The Professor

[kcwayne]

71. Blasphemers and heretics ALREADY

The depravity of mankind is astonishing. The bits that I used to reveal my gospel haven't even aged off the web cache, and a HERETIC reveals themselves.

[ProfessorGAC]

72. All I Know Is What I Know

I did it. I admit it. You weren't there. I have tapes. So there!
The Professor

[ellie]

7. A guy that I work with

believes the earth is only 5,000 years old. He is kind of dumb in a duh, what? way. He told me and I just mocked and ridiculed him. Mean, but I have no patience for this crap. These people never let the facts get in their way.

I am going hiking in the Grand Canyon, north rim, this year. I will see if I can locate these inspirational panels and will report back.

[GOPFighter]

18. Maybe you could try to find...

...remnents of Noah's Ark while you're at it!

Some guy, or organization, is rebuilding Noah/s Ark along I-68 west of Cumberland, Maryland. It's only partly done, but it's obvious that it wasn't nearly large enough to hold a pair of every animal currently on earth.

[Lizz612]

60. Gaaw-dah Shrunk the animals

So that they could all fit. Thats the obvious answer! :eyes:

[AngryAmish]

67. Is that just like God created mini-Ditka?

[yellowcanine]

81. I have seen creationists argue seriously that the animals were juveniles

thus they all fit in quite nicely with room to spare. Even had room for Noah's hot tub! Nah, I made that part up.

[yellowcanine]

80. I have seen that ark!

He has been at that for at least 30 years and it looks as if he still has quite a ways to go. Course I guess it took old Noah a long time as well but people lived a lot longer back then.

[bushisanidiot]

9. Check Yer Brains At The Freeper Door, My Friends

no need for logic in the new american century.

[Yavin4]

16. Getting People To Believe In Myths Over Science

is one of the keys to keeping a population under control. Science is superior to religion because it allows itself to be questioned and corrected. Religions do not allow questions. Asking questions is also a key to making democracy work. If people are reared in a religious culture, they learn to never ask questions of authority.

[yellowcanine]

17. Polictical correctness in the national parks - logical conclusion

"The flap at the Grand Canyon highlights what officials say is a problem for the national park system: how to
respect visitors' spiritual views that may directly contradict the agency's accepted scientific presentations and maintain the necessary division of church and state. "

Uh - why do park rangers have to pussyfoot around people's religious views that clearly contradict what we know? If some park visitor thinks he can safely pick up rattlesnakes based on what he read in the Bible, are the rangers going to "respect his spiritual views" and let him handle the snakes?

[noonwitch]

19. Did the flood also create the Great Lakes?

I was always taught that melting glaciers did, and that the petoskey stones are proof of the presence of glaciers in the area during the last ice age.

God! Save us from your followers!

[gauguin57]

23. aaaaaaaaaargh!

I feel like my head is going to explode. Please, God/Goddess, can't you do something with these doofuses? They're giving you a bad name among those in whose heads you have placed A BRAIN!

[Stuckinthebush]

20. I have a different theory than that...

Mine says that the Grand Canyon was created a long, long time ago by warring aliens. You see, the Planet Earth was a way station at the end of the galaxy for intergalactic travelers. Also, it's strategic position made it a great military outpost protecting the Milky Way from Alpha Centaurians - those bastards. Well during the year MW 20667, the ACs made a surprise attack at the far arm of the Milky Way which was right in the path of earth. A great battle occurred around this solar system. The ACs had a mighty weapon that rendered Mars inhabitable, and they were heading toward Earth. The battle that ensued saved the planet but resulted in a large slash in the Earth's Crust from AC weapons. That slash is what we call the Grand Canyon.

Over the next few hundred thousand years, the ACs and sentient MWs basically wiped each other out. So, we are left only with the evidence of the Grand Canyon that tells their sad story.

This information was passed to me via intergalactic mind melding from decedents of the MWs who live near the center of the galaxy but have lost the ability to travel to other parts of the galaxy. Soon, they will regain that ability, arrive on Earth and usher in a million years of peace and exploration.

I plan to write a book and get it placed in the Grand Canyon gift shops.

[Ripley]

33. Are you my spouse?

I live in Tuscaloosa and he/you work in Bham. You sound exactly like him. I can't stop laughing, is it you sweetie?

[Stuckinthebush]

35. Uhhhhh....

Hi, honey?

Wait...can't be...my spouse lives in Birmingham. But I have worked in Tuscaloosa!

It sounds like we all need to get together and figure out who goes with who!

[Ripley]

40. Heh, oh, okay.

He knows about the DU but I don't think he's here, but you never know. And dangit (are we still not allowed to cuss here?..I've been away), your alien description sounds like the way he talks except with a few more engineering references.

Howdy neighbor!

[Stuckinthebush]

41. Wait a minute

I work with engineers in the UA school of Engineering.

We probably know each other.

Howdy!

[Ripley]

45. I just knew it!

You engineer types all sound alike. ;-)

He works at the big MB plant, actually in Vance, but close enough.

[TeeYiYi]

39. What about . . . THE RAPTURE ? .....n/t

TYY

[Stuckinthebush]

42. Please ignore that story

It was based on faulty analysis of the intergalatic mind melding data.

[TeeYiYi]

73. Oh. Darn. I was hoping to be able to float ... up to the Milky Way. ...n/t

TYY

[CO Liberal]

89. One of Blondie's Best Recordings

"He eats Cadillacs, Lincolns, too -
Mercury's and Subarus.
And he don't stop - he keeps - on - eating cars..."

[CO Liberal]

21. Did He Bump His Head or Something???

What a maroon.......

[GeorgeGist]

22. Is YOUR faith reliable? Take this simple test and find out.

Read the following sentence and decide for yourself if it is true or if it is false . I have real faith in God therefore I do not need religion.

[Stuckinthebush]

24. No thanks

I'll take scientific inquiry over faith.

If it works for you, though....

[gauguin57]

25. freepers already all over this ...

See
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1053891/posts

My favorite line:
"If the Grand Canyon were formed over billions of years it would be as smooth edged as half-melted ice cream."

O ... kay?

[Stuckinthebush]

26. Check this one out...

A freeper with a brain!


To: Frank_Discussion
I love it!
When I first entered this debate a few years ago, I had an open mind. Both sides had some reasonable evidence being presented.

Thanks to some special members of FreeRepublic and Creationists in general, they have absolutely convinced me that their arguments have been seriously flawed.

Over the last 3 years, it has been wonderful to listen to, and evaluate the arguments from both sides. It has been one heck of a learning experience.

I can summarize the major flaw with the Creationist's side of the debate:

No supporting factual evidence has been presented of an occurrence of spontaneous generation.

When that factual evidence is presented, I will be ecstatic to re-evaluate my judgment upon this debate.


14 posted on 01/08/2004 7:41:03 AM PST by Hunble
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies >

[hatrack]

32. Obviously, this guy's read ALL of Richard Dawkins' books!

Frickin' unbelievable!

Then again, considering that a poll released about ten years back revealed that 26% of adult Americans surveyed did not know that it takes the Earth one year to complete an orbit of the sun, maybe it's not all that frickin' unbelievable.

[kayell]

37. You believe that the earth rotates around the sun?!

Why you, you, you HERETIC! Everyone of true faith knows that the earth (which is flat) was created to be the center of the universe.

[Terwilliger]

47. if the earth is flat, yet you can go east from New York...

and end up back in New York...AND the earth is the center of the universe....

just trying to bend the 3 dimensions to understand that one :P

[kayell]

51. All things are possible if ye only have true faith

*help, help, I think I've been possessed by a fundie*

Back you atheist lib'rul.
AHEM
Now that THAT is dealt with - This phenomenon is yet another example of the wondrous workings of the one true Gaaaaaw-ud.

[reprobate]

83. trying to bend the 3 dimensions

Well, see, there's your problem.

String theory claims there are at least 13 dimensions. You must factor in the other ten (which are folded into themselves) to get a true idea of the real shape of earth.

Having said that, I'm not sure how string theory would fit with the self evident truths of creationism.

[hatrack]

52. Damn! Revealed as a blas=FEEEEEM-er!

And I so wanted to conceal my secret secular humanist leanings!

[EstimatedProphet]

54. I never really looked at Free Republic before now

So many of them are arguing AGAINST what science says, as if it's simple whim...jeez.
These are some scary people.

[kysrsoze]

76. More apt name: Freek Republic

99% are a buncha old/insecure/stupid/bigoted loseers. Entertaining posts though.

[Terwilliger]

44. my "faith" is nonexistent...I like knowledge

and reason

[lazarus]

34. old news

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17476

"In a series of recent decisions, the National Park Service has approved the display of religious symbols and Bible verses, as well as the sale of creationist books about the origins of natural wonders in national parks, according to documents to be released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). "

[Stuckinthebush]

36. Well...

It still boggles the mind!

:D

[DrWeird]

38. So how old is the grand canyon.

Obviously the lower strata reach back to the precambrian and earlier, billions of years. But obviously colorado hasn't be flowing that long. So how long did it take to carve out?

[enki23]

94. carved within the last 5-6 million years or so

http://www.grand.canyon.national-park.com/info.htm

[Terwilliger]

43. HAHA...he found religion and KNOWLEDGE is sacrificed on the altar

:eyes:

I hope people understand why I question the sanity of anybody who believes...you settle for too much because of your "faith"

[iam]

62. That's why

Religion is the worship of ignorance and god is another name for the unknown.

[Merlin]

46. Creationists are a much bigger problem than this out West.

The fundies are making a serious effort in CO and NM (as well as OH) to take over school boards, including the state boards. Their success so far has frightened scientists I know at Sandia, who are now making a serious counter-effort.

One of the most dangerous notions in the world is that the bible is the "Word of God."

[onehandle]

49. No. Native Americans dug it with spoons...

Newly given to them by Martians. Happened less than 2000 years ago.

My theory is equally valid to theirs. ;-)

[TexasPatriot]

58. i saw some of those spoons on ebay

they were pretty valuable. i wonder if i could go into the 'martian spoon facsimilie' business and sell replica's at the Grand Canyon giftshop (if i do, i'll cut you in)

:toast:

[Gman]

53. The outrageous thing is that they allow that crap to be sold

at a U.S. government visitor center. If this guy is employed by the government he should be fired immediately.

[0007]

55. Quiz

What religion believes that the Garden of Eden was in Florida?

[Stuckinthebush]

56. I'm not sure...

but the Original Navel Orange Queens believe it!

http://navelorangequeens.com/eden.htm

[0007]

59. You'd heard of this religion before I'm sure!

Someone will come up with it soon, if not I'll PM ya -

[kayell]

63. Well the Nature Consevancy appears to own the Garden of Eden

http://www.newsherald.com/FEATURES/EDEN511.HTM

I give up. Which religion?

[kayell]

57. It looks like at least 1 baptist minister did

http://www.travelintelligence.net/wsd/articles/art_474.html

snip

“Can you...?” I started to say, then hesitated. Bristol was as much Eden as Dunblane is Gomorrah. I didn’t want his laughter to chase me back onto the hot, weary street. “Can you direct me to the Garden of Eden?”

“The Garden of Eden?” repeated the old man.

I waited for the guffaw, or at least a chuckle. Instead he joined his hands together as if in prayer.

“They say it was here,” he told me, “but it’s only the whisper of a claim.”

“Here in town?” I asked. “In Bristol?”

“Just up the road a few miles. Turn left off Highway 270. It’s real near to the spot where the ark was built.”

“Noah’s ark?”

“None other.” I wasn’t prepared for the Ark.

“I’m no oceanographer,” he said in his honeyed drawl, “but they say if you check the tides and currents of the oceans that was probable at that time, you’ll find that they’d carry a vessel without a rudder straight from Bristol to Mount Ararat.”

[iam]

61. There's only one question you ever have to ask a religionist:

Why do men have nipples?

[kcwayne]

74. And there is only one answer you can get

God works in mysterious ways that are unknowable to man.
Catchy isn't it?

Go Colts.

[Danieljay]

87. I have the answer to that ...

but if ya gotta ask, you'll never know!

[theHandpuppet]

64. Believe it or not...

When I was a kid my church taught us that fossils of dinosaurs were planted by the devil in order to test our faith. All the kids in our Sunday School were given frightening pamphlets to that effect. Thank goodness that even as a child I could recognize bullcrap when I heard it, but what those folks did was little short of brainwashing and mental child abuse.

[aquart]

86. Which church?

Not that every religion hasn't pulled this garbage.

[theHandpuppet]

96. Southern Baptist

We were also taught in our Sunday School that when a baby cries the baby is sinning because it is only thinking of itself. I remember even as children my sister and I arguing with our "teacher" about that line of stupidity and getting into hot water over it.

Of course, we were also taught that mental illness came from the devil and that children born with any kind of defect were punishments meted out by God to sinning parents.

Such poisoning of young minds is an abomination and is tantamount to child abuse. I will never set foot in a church again.

[Maeve]

66. Nonsense! Paul Bunyon carved it out!

Dragging his great ax behind him....:eyes:

[tom_paine]

78. Well, since we're allowed to just make stuff up...

It was I who created the Grand Canyon!

For years I have been posting on DU in my mortal disguse, but now I can truly say that I am THOR, God of THUNDER!

In spite of my other disagreements with non-Valhallans, I have to say that Ussher was right. I was there on Sept. 22, 4004BC and he got it right.

But they lie about Noah's Flood creating the Canyon. It was created after I had a few too many beers and failed to take a leak. When I finally did, my bladder was backed up quite a bit.

When I let loose with that enormous piss (you people have never seen the member of a Thunder God...not to brag but it's pretty big) in what would later be known as Page, Arizona you should have seen the dust and rocks fly!

When I was finished and the dust cleared, there stood the Grand Canyon in all it's pristine glory.

Now, can I have MY story represented in the Grand Canyon General Store?

[kayell]

82. Hey Thor, after hearing about what you did to that ticket counter

at Heathrow, sure, why shouldn't I trust you about the Grand Canyon.

[tom_paine]

85. I'm still mad at that pipsqueak Arthur Dent for stealing my woman!

When I catch up to him...

[aquart]

84. Usher isn't in the bible. Since when is he God's spokesperson?

[bfusco]

90. asinine non science

Didn't have time to read the whole thread but creationist arguments such as this should be reason enough to demonstrate the stupidity of much of the Republican base and how they should be dismissed. Explaining it as being created by the Great Flood still doesn't answer the years millions of years of sediment deposition that occurred at the sea floor and the millions of years of uplift that had to occur to elevate the Colorado Plateau so it could be eroded into what is now the Grand Canyon. Beyond asinine creationist arguments such is this is carbon-14 dating that has quantified bones to be tens of thousands of years old, radioactive decomposition that has quantified rocks on earth to be 4.6 billion years old, light from stars that have have been quantified to be billion of years away and background radiation still being measured in the universe that is not emanating from a source and is from the big bang. I have not been to the Grand Canyon but have been to Canyon Country in Utah. Looking at the wonders, the history of this ancient sculpture is so apparent. Saying it is a few thousand years is like looking at a 90 year old and saying he is 10. I actually had a debate with fundamentalists who claimed that man and dinosaur walked the earth at the same time. At that point I realized some people are too stupid to debate and did not go further.

[maxrandb]

119. Man and Dinosaurs?

Obviously someone getting there science from 1 million years BC.

But, Rachel Welch sure looked mighty fine in that loincloth.

[demdave]

91. No worst than some of the conspiracy theories I have read here.

What is so wrong about this guy's book being sold? I do not believe in censoring free speech, especially if I have to buy it in order to be exposed to it. If you don't like his views, don't buy the book.

[Stuckinthebush]

92. I think you see most of the posters ridiculing not being indignant

It is silly, however, that the National Park Service - a group dedicated to Natural Science - would approve of such drivel being sold in their stores.

No one says the guy can't write his silly book, most probably feel that a National Park Service store is a very inappropriate place to sell this type of myth.

[Solly Mack]

97. So the lord booked a tour and they met?

How divine...

[Venomous_Rhetoric]

98. Love this stuff

It's a well proven fact that there was a great flood in Noahs time.
Noahs world did indeed have a great flood. People constantly get the Adam and eve thing wrong as well. The bible doesn't say there were no other beings on earth at the time, it only deals with HIS creation.

People with a poor understand of the bible tend to think it was a global flood. The bible doesn't say that at all.
there is alot more science that proves the bible than there is to prove Darwinism.

Carbon dating is wrong as well.

[zls44]

100. You moron...or as you'd say...moran

"There is alot more science that proves the bible than there is to prove Darwinism."

Oh...this should be good. Please. Go ahead. Amaze me with your proof.

[Venomous_Rhetoric]

105. Name calling is immature

It's just plain true, But why should I prove anything to you?

First, your rude, second your assuming I'm religious, but I'm not.
Darwin HAS been proved wrong in scientific circles, but I guess you "believe" like those religious people, so your blinded, Like some of them. Religious people miss-understand the bible, especially when trying to understand the parables and symbolism it contains.

I choose not to believe what it says, but, I don't disrespect them for their beliefs. There are plenty of religious lefties, and the charity Christ teaches is part of the democrat platform.
You don't have to be rude to people just because they have faith.


Lets see, God created the earth.....
Boom! there it is! big bang theory proves that.

There was a great flood during Noahs time, well golly, geologists found that indeed, there was a massive flood in Noahs reagon at the time, big enough that he would not have seen land for quite some time.
"His" world was flooded.

Carbon dating is flawed, Why? Carbon wasn't constant over billions of years. Our atmosphere has changed and developed of billions of years, long before species of plants started apearing, and during that time.



Now, what do you say is wrong with the bible? and how can you prove it wrong with science?
Never mind what you don't believe, just what you can PROVE to be wrong

[HawkerHurricane]

110. Carbon 14

From

http://science.howstuffworks.com/carbon-14.htm

You probably have seen or read news stories about fascinating ancient artifacts. At an archaeological dig, a piece of wooden tool is unearthed and the archaeologist finds it to be 5,000 years old. A child mummy is found high in the Andes and the archaeologist says the child lived more than 2,000 years ago. How do scientists know how old an object or human remains are? What methods do they use and how do these methods work? In this edition of How Stuff Works, we will examine the methods by which scientists use radioactivity to determine the age of objects, most notably carbon-14 dating.
Carbon-14 dating is a way of determining the age of certain archeological artifacts of a biological origin up to about 50,000 years old. It is used in dating things such as bone, cloth, wood and plant fibers that were created in the relatively recent past by human activities.

SO...
Since Carbon 14 dating isn't used for anything older than 'about' 50,000 years, does it matter if the carbon level was different billions of years ago?

Moving on...

Look in the Bible for the discription of the Temple of Solomon.
It describes a 'pool of metal' as being '3 cubits across and 9 cubits around'. The only mathematical theorom in the Bible, the value of pi, is given as 3 even. Not 3.14, which the Egyptions used, but 3.

Now, if you look in Genesis 1 and compare it to Genisis 2, you find that there are two seperate discriptions on how the world was created. Obviously, only one can be right. So, in one of the first two chapters of the Bible, it proves the other chapter wrong.

If you wish further fun on the subject, check out www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

Learning is fun.

[0rganism]

111. Carbon dating? Nooooo. Try radio isochron dating.

If you are at all interested in learning about how science works, esp. how it applies to the theory of evolution, please visit this site:

http://www.talkorigins.org/

They have very useful and quite legible FAQs put together by a wide spectrum of Usenet users (including professional biologists and geologists), which address important things like how evidence is gathered and applied, how theories change over time, and so on.

FYI, Darwin is not "wrong", he is "incomplete", as science by its nature is incomplete. Darwin was no more wrong about evolution than Sir Isaac Newton was about gravity. Just because Newton didn't understand relativity doesn't make gravity nonexistent or invalidate his work; same with Darwin, whose theory predated genetics (Gregor Mendel was a contemporary) and punctuated equilibrium.

Theories are not intended to provide an absolute unchanging reality; rather, they are the epistemoligical best we can do to both explain the evidence at hand and predict future evidence. That evolution happened and continues to happen is an undisputed (in serious circles) scientific fact, like objects "falling" in a gravity field. HOW evolution happens is where the theory and its sub-theories kick in.

I strongly recommend you read the FAQs at the talkorigins.org website; your expressed beliefs regarding the bible are sound enough, but you appear to have some serious confusions about science. It's unfortunate that people can go through high school and even college without gaining an understanding of science.

[0rganism]

113. BTW, here's a link to the talkorigins article on radiometric dating

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/isochron-dating.html

because it's never too late to learn something new.

[lazarus]

132. Easy

The populations are all wrong. The Bible claims there were more Israelites fleeing Egypt than there were total people living in Egypt at any time in the ancient past.

There's one.

Shall I go on?

And, actually, no, geologists haven't found a "massive flood in Noah's region at the time" at all. Been watching the Discovery Channel again?

[Solly Mack]

102. I see

:::::::::slowly removes sharp objects from the room::::

[enki23]

106. here's where it gets interesting

the fundies, "creation scientist" types especially, explain the stratified fossil layers by saying the various organisms all lived at the same time, but were separated into layers by "hydrologic sorting." this happened during, you guessed it, "the great flood." (ta da.)

would be interesting to hear their explanation for how the flood deposited all the layers in the grand canyon while conveniently leaving a big, pretty hole in the middle. or perhaps the hole was dug during the *second* great flood. the one that god promised (and this here rainbow, something never before seen on earth, is the sign of my promise to you...) that he would never again destroy the world with.

so maybe he has his story a bit twisted. maybe the hole was dug in a, something *less* than world-destroying, flood which came some time *after* noah's flood. he's just a tour guide, after all. it's not like he has any particular reason to know his ass from, say, a really big hole in the ground.

[salin]

107. not related but... Hi Enki!

I haven't seen you in ages :hi:

[enki23]

108. hey salin

i'm still in an undisclosed location. still poke my head out now and then. :P

[WillParkinson]

120. Do you and Cheney play checkers?

Inquiring minds and all that.

[opihimoimoi]

124. Yo Enki, Happy New Year

Stay away from them Crawdads, LOL

[Venomous_Rhetoric]

109. I don't know why

These people come out and say those ridiculous things. They can't even read the bible correctly, so I guess that speaks for the rest of their education as well.

Evidence has shown over and over again that this "flood" was regional, plus there is no evidence anywhere of a great world wide flood all at the same time.

As far as that rainbow thing goes? well, I can't see the M.E ever being flooded again, LoL So it looks like he kept his promise so far.
The dead sea is really dead now.

Look at who is saying all this though,
A Colorado River guide who "found the lord" Explains why his reading and comprehension skills seem to be lacking

It's not right that anyone would assume he's any sort of religious expert, So I don't know what the big fuss is about

[Zomby Woof]

112. speaking of education

The Old Testament flood was stolen from Greek mythology. In both cases, the flood is metaphorical - the washing away or 'cleansing' of sin and vileness from the earth. Not a literal flood. Ah, the beauty of parables and myth.

Now then, you say geologists have "proven" there was a regional flood in Noah's time. How so? If they can't use carbon-14 dating, because you discredited it, being so educated and all, then how are they to determine how long ago the strata formed, and showed evidence of this flooding? Random guesswork? Or "Well, the bible says it, so it must be true, and the geologists force their observations to fit the Divine Plan"?

I also want to know which god made those other humans that bred with the humans made by the "real god". Because if I descended from those other humans, I want to make sure I am kissing the right deity's ass so I can gwine on up to hebbin' when I die.

And if another god (or no god at all) created those other humans, doesn't that pretty much negate the divine originality of humans? I mean the Bible says we were made to look just like god, so does that mean the other god was ripping him off? Can the "real god" sue for intellectual copyright infringement?

And if the "real god" DID make us in his own image, then god must be dumb, and a little ugly on the side.

[Chovexani]

114. I seem to remember a Babylonian flood myth too.

Where the rainbow came from Ishtar holding her necklace up. Or something.

[warrior1]

116. stupid stupid stupid

This is their logical. So 6000 years ago everything was created by a flood. Err..ok. so wouldn't things be happening like that know? Like overnight, you could see it moving with you own eyes (glacier moving) or water pouring over rocks (smoothing them out) or say in caves when water seeps thru the mountain and makes stalactite and stalagmites.

[NickB79]

135. There is significant evidence for a regional flood, just as he mentioned

Regional being the key word here. I believe he is referring to the idea that the story of Noah's flood began when the Black Sea was flooded by the rising waters of the Mediterranean ~7000 yrs ago. Simply do a google search for information on it. There is much evidence to support this hypothesis, including the findings of an ancient shoreline hundreds of feet below the current Black Sea, formed thousands of years ago when it was an isolated, freshwater lake. The melting glaciers of the last Ice Age caused worldwide sea levels to rise, overflowing the land bridge that held back the sea and flooding massive areas of land inhabited by humans around the Black Lake. Similarly, there are flood legends found in Native American mythology that some have related back to memories of the massive floods that occurred in the northern and western US at the end of the last Ice Age as massive glacial lakes broke. I think Venomous is going a bit far by saying this has been proven, but it is a solid, workable hypothesis based on science.

[Zomby Woof]

137. you misunderstand

I know there is geological evidence for all kinds of floods, Ice Age related and otherwise - but he wants it both ways. He discredits carbon-dating and the fossil record, which are just two of many ways of discerning past water levels and their longevity, and uses a recycled fairy tale as his justification. Cart before the horse - pretty much saying that because such floods occurred, then the Bible must be literally true. I have learned over the years that conservatives/fundies often confuse cause and effect. This was a sterling example.

I was yanking his chain, but that doesn't mean I was disallowing the existence of a flood of any sort.

[reprobate]

117. There really was a flood. Do you believe in racial memories?

The biblical flood is now pretty much acknowledged to have been the flooding of the fresh water lake which became the Black Sea. See:

http://www.saintaidans.org/sci_theo/past_talks/NoahsFlood.htm

The biblical flood myth was taken from the Babylonian myth, which was apparently a memory of the black sea flood. The real story, which I find far more fascinating than the myth, says that the meditoranean was separated from the fresh water lake that became the black sea by a land bridge across the bosporus. Rising sea levels caused the water to rise above and eventually bread thru the dam, flooding the lake and creating the Black Sea.

Sonar and core drilling have revealed rivers, beaches, and fresh water clams all buried under hundreds of feet of the black sea.

So yes, Virginia. There really was a flood. But it wasn't universal. Although from the rather limited world view of the people of the time it must have seems like the whole world was flooding.

For me, it's fascinating to see how a real disaster has been turned into something that represents divine retribution for some unspoken evil. And this story has been perpetuated by societies for the last seven and a half millenia. I guess the big question is: why does man seem to have such a guilty conscience?

[rman]

123. the argument is about age, not about the flood n/t

-

[reprobate]

129. Ryan and Pitman place the time at 5600 BC

Which places it just a bit older than 4000 yrs, no?

[lazarus]

134. The problem is

That the languages don't always match up. Linguistic anthropologists have tried tracking the flood myths, and they don't follow from a Black Sea flood. That's not denying that the Black Sea cataclysm occurred, just questioning that it's the root of the "racial memory" (which I absolutely don't believe in, see below) of a Great Flood.

As for "racial memory", how exactly is that supposed to work? Genetic? That's the only mechanism I can see that could possibly carry information across generations, but if that's possible, then Lysenkoism is true, and everything we know about genetics is out the window.

[duhneece]

121. Discover Magazine charged Bush admin with misusing science

..to advance a conservative agenda. The magazine listed this story as #5 of the top 100 stories of year 2003. "The study described misleading statemments by the President, inaccurate responses to Congress, altered web sites, suppressed agency reports..."

[rman]

122. the neocon - creationism connection

Origin of the Specious
Why do neoconservatives doubt Darwin?
By Ronald Bailey
Reason magazine - juli 1997
http://reason.com/9707/fe.bailey.shtml

Darwinism is on the way out. At least, that's what Irving Kristol announced to a gathering at the American Enterprise Institute in Washington not long ago. Darwinian evolution, according to the godfather of neoconservatism, "is really no longer accepted so easily by biologists and scientists." Why? Because, Kristol explained, scientifically minded Darwin doubters are once again focusing on "the old-fashioned argument from design." That is to say, life in all its apparently ordered complexity cannot be understood in terms of chance mutation and the competition for survival. There must, after all, be a designer. So, exit Darwin; enter--or re-enter--God.

This may seem to some readers to be a personal quirk of Kristol's. Perhaps as he approaches Eternity (he's 77), he may want some grand company there. But Kristol's friend and colleague Robert Bork is claiming the same thing: Charles Darwin and his theories are finished. In his new work, Slouching Towards Gomorrah: Modern Liberalism and American Decline, Bork pins his own anti-evolutionary attack on Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution, a recent book by biochemist Michael Behe. Bork declares that Behe "has shown that Darwinism cannot explain life as we know it." He adds approvingly that the book "may be read as the modern, scientific version of the argument from design to the existence of a designer." Bork triumphantly concludes: "Religion will no longer have to fight scientific atheism with unsupported faith. The presumption has shifted, and naturalist atheism and secular humanism are on the defensive."

Are these merely two isolated intellectual voices preaching that old-time design? Hardly. Last summer, the Ethics and Public Policy Center, a think tank devoted to studying the role of religion in public policy, and now headed by neoconservative Elliott Abrams, called together a group of conservative intellectuals, including Kristol, his wife, Gertrude Himmelfarb, and Hoover Institution fellow Tom Bethell, to listen to anti-Darwin presentations by Behe and Michael Denton, author of Evolution: A Theory in Crisis. Himmelfarb has told at least one colleague that she, too, thinks the Behe book "excellent."

There's yet more. The neoconservative journal Commentary, of all periodicals, joined this attack last June with a cover essay, "The Deniable Darwin," written by mathematician David Berlinski.

(more)

[varun]

125. The "Great Flood" and Noah's Ark

Most religions of the world (including polytheistic Hinduism) mention a great flood...and its possible the there was such a flood..but it was probably localized, and not worldwide.

What I have a problem with is the concept of Noah's Ark.

How can a boat claim to carry two representatives of EVERY species on earth? What about the dinosaurs, the giant sequoia trees, the millions of species of insects, the millions more of plants?

Do "they" have any idea what kind of space would be requied for this?

[zls44]

126. Hey venemous idiot

"G-d created the Earth. The Big Bang proves that!"

How exactly. News flash: the Big Bang was the expansion and explosion of gases. I know, more science talk. Don't worry, it'll be ok, Satan isn't coming.

Why do you say that proves He/She/It did it? Just because?!?!?!? What are you, in 2nd grade?!?!?!?!?

[opihimoimoi]

128. Michael Behe wrote a book a lot of "Believers" wanted to accept

and in doing so, made tons of money. Just because he cannot explain evolution he assumes an Intelligent Design(er).

He has a flawed argument. In my view, he is dead wrong. A waste of time.

[slackmaster]

127. If you have an hour to kill in Santee, CA I recommend the ICR Museum

It's really amazing what some people insist on believing.

http://www.icr.org/museum/

Seriously, take a tour of the ICR museum some time. It's a hoot! Worth every penny of the free admission. Don't miss the simulated Egyptian artifacts,



or the fine cardboard fake Rosetta Stone, of which the signage gives no indication that it is anything other than the REAL THING!

See the (one and only) Ice Age and Noah's Ark complete with a (I'm actually being serious here) fine example of deep perspective painting, and creaking ship and animal sounds. See the gallery of Evil People like Charles Darwin and Karl Marx.

[lazarus]

130. LOL

I'll have to finally stop by. Heck, that's about 2 miles from where I live, you'd think I'd be there on a weekly basis harassing them.

[HawkerHurricane]

138. Been there...

Me and Dad went there 2 years ago; we were quiet and respectful and got together afterwords and made a list of all the mistakes we could find...