Chavez flays Catholic leaders

[cali]

Source: Reuters

22/10/2007 15:59 - (SA)
Caracas - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez slammed the nation's Roman Catholic Church leadership as "morally unacceptable" late on Sunday for criticizing his proposal to rewrite the constitution to scrap term limits.

Chavez's reform plan, which voters are expected to approve in a December referendum, also includes allowing security forces to detain citizens without charge during political "emergencies" or major natural disasters.

Church leaders on Friday issued a strongly-worded statement accusing Chavez of seeking to concentrate power with an "authoritarian" proposal to overhaul the OPEC nation's constitution that he helped rewrite in 1999.

Bishops 'make us ashamed'

"They say the reform is morally unacceptable - they are morally unacceptable," Chavez said in a government press release sent out on Sunday night. "Those bishops that we have make us ashamed."

<snip>



Read more: http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2206910,00.html

---

:popcorn:

[Dhalgren]

1. Viva Chavez!

[cali]

2. I have mixed feelings about Chavez- more positive than not

but I must say, the headline was bullshit on this story.

[SyntaxError]

121. He does make for some interesting dicussions.

[...of J.Temperance]

6. If George W. Bush suddenly decided to change the Constitution so that

It'd scrap term limits, therefore he could stay in office as long as he liked....what would you say?

Would you say Viva Bush?

I don't think so.

How about if United States security forces could detain citizens without charge during "political emergencies or major natural disasters"?

Would you say Viva Bush?

I don't think so.

So WHY do you say Viva Chavez? Do you have your blinkers on THAT much that you CAN'T see what ALL of this MEANS?


On Edit: Dammit spelling error

[Sneaky Sailor]

22. Indeed

I can get behind you on this one. Anytime someone wants to get rid of term limits, I get a little antsy...

[...of J.Temperance]

27. Scrapping term limits, in THIS fashion, leads to a very slippery slope

A slippery slope that easily leads to Totalitarian rule and Dictatorship-For-Life.

[ret5hd]

104. oooohhh...TOMBSTONED!!!! I wonder what did it?

[Drunken Irishman]

29. Especially with how Bush steals elections.

Look, I once was for removing term limits. But after seeing Bush steal two elections, term limits might be the best thing this country has ever produced. I don't trust Bush and the thought of 4 more years makes me nauseous. That doesn't mean the Republicans won't steal an election again, but I still hold out hope they won't be nearly as effective.

[LittleClarkie]

50. What if people voted and said it was okay?

Is it okay to vote away one's rights to a popular leader?

[...of J.Temperance]

52. WHY would ANYONE WANT to vote away one's rights to ANY leader? n/t

.

[ret5hd]

78. You mean like the right to vote for who you want?

Regardless of how many terms they have served?
Much like many of our own senators and congresspersons?
Much like our own presidents before FDR?

[...of J.Temperance]

84. I support Term Limits for Senators and Congresspeople

So, your point was WHAT again exactly?

Also there's a GREAT difference between a Senator and a Congressperson having unlimited terms....and the supposed Head of State deciding that HE'S going to change the Constitution so that HE can have unlimited terms.

[LittleClarkie]

92. Freedom of Choice

A victim of collision on the open sea
Nobody ever said that life was free
Sank, swam, go down with the ship
But use your freedom of choice

I'll say it again in the land of the free
Use your freedom of choice
Your freedom of choice

In ancient Rome there was a poem
About a dog who found two bones
He picked at one
He licked the other
He went in circles
'Til he dropped dead

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom of choice!

Then if you got it you don't want it
Seems to be the rule of thumb
Don't be tricked by what you see
You got two ways to go

I'll say it again in the land of the free
Use your freedom of choice
Freedom of choice

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom of choice!

In ancient Rome
There was a poem
About a dog
Who found two bones
He picked at one
He licked the other
He went in circles
'Til he dropped dead

Freedom of choice
Is what you got
Freedom from choice
Is what you want

[Zhade]

85. Of course, as explained, that's NOT what's happening here.

NT!

[ret5hd]

108. on edit: wrong place.

[ronnie624]

131. It is odd,

that so many, overlook the fact that this reform will be ratified by a referendum, like many others, in possibly the cleanest elections in the world. How strange, to compare this obvious democratic process to George W. Bush "suddenly" deciding to change the constitution. The comparison is completely illogical.

This may not be the sort of democracy that some rightists on DU would prefer, but it is democracy, none the less.

Sometimes, I can only shake my head in confusion.

[AngryOldDem]

118. Spot on.

I just don't get the torrid love affair some here have with Chavez. He's another dictator. Plain and simple. And as much as I disagree with the Church on most issues, on this one the bishops were correct in speaking out.

I guess it's because the guy is a pain in the ass to Bush. Pretty stupid reason for backing another Latin American strong-arm artist.

[...of J.Temperance]

165. Thanks :)

Chavez IS another Dictator, and I think they like him because he's a pain in the ass to Bush....ironically Chavez is becoming another Bush.

[jefferson_dem]

147. Chimpy <=====> Hugo

Two pukey peas in a pod...

[...of J.Temperance]

166. Exactly and totally

Seriously disturbing shit developing.

[Unveiled19]

72. Don't forget about clamping down on free press.

There is nothing good going on here!

[SyntaxError]

122. DIdn't that "press" promote the a coup against Chavez?

[Unveiled19]

169. If they did......

One would support snuffing out the press in favor of a coup against a bogus leader here? Explain how it is ok for this country to have freedom of speech, but not in Venezuela - clearly being led by a dictator? Or, to put it bluntly how many nano-seconds will you be free/alive if you lived in Venezuela and staunchly dissed the administration there? Really, what kind of a jack ass snuggles up to a guy like chavez?

[Judi Lynn]

174. Sad, isn't it, when some people refuse to educate themselves. All that is really required

is an active, living brain, and a sense of concern which impels us all to start doing our own homework.

You're absolutely right. DU'ers practically had a front row seat during the coup when one of DU's own members was posting us night and day from Caracas as it happened. No DEMOCRATS who were here at that time have any illusion about what happened.

Here's a small thread he posted at the time, apparently after the worst was over:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=19903&forum=DCForumID5

[Socal31]

178. Me thinks you would like a form of government found 90 miles south of Florida...

much more than the one we have here. Scary. (Last time I checked, this wasnt http://www.communistunderground.com)

[SpikeTss]

3. Quotes

Chavez's reform plan, which voters are expected to approve in a December referendum, also includes allowing security forces to detain citizens without charge during political "emergencies"

When I read something like this I always wonder if there is any objective, unbiased source for this.
Because the excerpts from this article sound like something the NED has financed or produced.

[Joe Chi Minh]

24. Imitation, I'm told, is the sincerest form of flattery. Where on earth

could he have picked that up from?

It occurred to me the other day, how ironical it was that 2000 years AD our riparian governments have regressed to such a point that we both effectively have despotic corporatocracies in place, imposing ever more oppressive corporatist regimes on our captive populations.

Around 500 years BC, on the other hand, in Iran, the country Bushco wants to invade, when King Xerxes wanted to show off the beauty of Vashti, his queen, to guests at a banquet he was holding, and she refused to respond to his summons, we are told: ".....Then the king became furious and burned with anger.

Since it was customary for the king to consult experts in matters of law and justice, he spoke with wise men who understood the times and were closest to the king ...."

Wow!What a wuss, eh! When he could have set aside all the laws and did whatever the heck he wanted to! Bah! A nation of laws is for cissies!

[...of J.Temperance]

4. This is deeply disturbing....Chavez the Dictator is on the cards

"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez slammed the nation's Roman Catholic Church leadership as "morally unacceptable" late on Sunday for criticizing his proposal to rewrite the constitution to scrap term limits."


Yeah I agree with the Roman Catholic leadership....that IS morally unacceptable....Chavez is going to rewrite the Constitution to scrap term limits so Chavez can stay in office AS LONG as he likes ie. Dictator For Life.


"also includes allowing security forces to detain citizens without charge during political "emergencies"


Yeah like detaining citizens when they protest Chavez setting himself up as Dictator For Life, those citizens will probably be "disappeared" ala like citizens "disappeared" during Operation Condor in the 1970s.


""They say the reform is morally unacceptable - they are morally unacceptable," Chavez said in a government press release sent out on Sunday night. "Those bishops that we have make us ashamed."



No Hugo Chavez, YOU are the one that should be ashamed.

[CountAllVotes]

5. yeah the Catholic Church is his new toy

or should I say weapon?

I'm sick of all of the Catholic bashing around here btw.

I do not appreciate this story one bit.

:kick: anyway

[...of J.Temperance]

7. I don't like Hugo Chavez, never have, never will

This very disturbing set of events, outlined in this article, just reaffirm why I don't like him, why I don't trust him....and why I knew from day one that Chavez was planning on setting himself up as Dictator For Life.

I'm dubious about any poll in Venezuela, I wouldn't be surprised if Chavez hasn't had elections and polls rigged ever since he got in....I also don't like the way he has journalists and political opponents jailed and TV stations that don't agree with him shut down.

Catholic bashing....I was baptized a Roman Catholic, I'm a lapsed Catholic....I have many issues with the Vatican that I disagree with, which led me to become a lapsed Catholic....I try to be critical without bashing though.

[SpikeTss]

11. Jimmy Carter is guilty

I'm dubious about any poll in Venezuela, I wouldn't be surprised if Chavez hasn't had elections and polls rigged ever since he got in

Jimmy Carter is the silent supporter of this regime:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=45&ItemID=9250

Seriously, people. Is this torrent of posts here in this forum some kind of joke?
You can't be serious with your Chavez-bashing? Because it's really ... strange!

[...of J.Temperance]

18. What's strange?

I don't like or trust Hugo Chavez....I think this is his move to set himself up as Dictator For Life....what's strange about thinking that....it seems the evidence is pretty black and white:

Rewriting the Constitution to scrap term limits....allowing the Security Forces to detain citizens without charge during political disturbances.

I'm AGAINST ALL Dictators and ALL Dictatorships....and Chavez is setting himself up to be a Dictator.


On Edit: Dammit spelling error

[rAVES]

25. He's changing the term limits, but can still be voted out.. you know? ELECTIONS?

I can see why U.S citizens would be dubious about those though.

[...of J.Temperance]

34. Elections can and do get rigged....the next one will be the Zimbabwe "elections"

Why does Hugo Chavez WANT to CHANGE the Constitution and scrap term limits and WHY does he want to allow the security forces to DETAIN citizens WITHOUT charge during "political disturbances and natural disasters"?

Now see, to me THOSE things are VERY scary things for a leader to want to do.

[rayofreason]

54. Could an election be a "national emergency"?

Could security forces then "detain" at will?

This is a steady march to Dictatorship and Cult of Personality by a megalomaniac who did once try to take the government by force. Now he does it with changes in the constitution that will be enforced by government "security forces.".

Can you imagine the outcry here at the DU if someone just FLOATED a story about Bush ending term limits and allowing detention without habeus corpus (only Lincoln did that)? And yet there are plenty of Chavez supporters who are not dismayed by this. It is one thing to be in favor of a more equitable society in Venezuela, and early support for Chavez is understandable. It is another to keep cheering when things like this proposal come down the pike. Perhaps some people are confused - DU does not stand for Dictators Underground.

[...of J.Temperance]

61. Yes a Cult of Personality

It's the sort of thing that the W supporters have WET DREAMS about W being able to do....it's the sort of thing that WE TOTALLY disagree with, and RIGHTFULLY so.

It's Dictatorship, it's Hugo Chavez setting himself up to be Dictator-For-Life, but BECAUSE it's Hugo Chavez, apparently, according to the Chavez Cheerleaders here, it's A-OK.


On Edit: Dammit spelling error

[Vidar]

134. Shhh, you're making too much sense.

[Unveiled19]

170. Ha Ha Ha -

[SpikeTss]

26. Your post

I don't like or trust Hugo Chavez

We all see that

I think this is his move to set himself up as Dictator For Life....what's strange about thinking that

Because there is no indication that he is trying that. He would have to be elected to stay in office. Just like in other states around the world.

Allowing the Security Forces to detain citizens without charge during political disturbances

I still haven't seen any unbiased source where I get some real trustworthy information about this.

[...of J.Temperance]

36. Elections can and DO get rigged n/t

.

[SpikeTss]

43. Elections do get rigged? Yes, in the USA but not in Venezuela

Because thankfully, Venezuela doesn't have guys like James Baker with their fingers on the ballots.

Exhibit A:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3956129.stm

Exhibit B:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=45&ItemID=9250

[Sneaky Sailor]

40. He would have to be elected to stay in office

I remember Sadaam Hussein holding an election right before the invasion. He got 97% as I recall.


Hitler was elected.

Mussolini was elected.

[...of J.Temperance]

44. Yeah Robert Mugabe was "elected" with 99% of the vote

As well....elections, as we know, aren't fool-proof OR rig-proof.

[SpikeTss]

47. May I complete your list?

Hitler was elected.

Yes, before he invaded Poland

Mussolini was elected.

Yes, before he invaded Ethiopia

And Bush was 'elected' before he invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.

[NoPasaran]

154. So who do think Chavez will be invading?

Since that seems to be the pattern you've identified here.

[Unveiled19]

171. Try opening your eyes!

[CountAllVotes]

17. well I'm lapsed too I guess you would say

in other words, I am not really into it much on any level. However, I too was baptized Catholic and was raised to believe in Catholicism. I have many issues with them as well, but I am tired of all of the bashing. Enough is enough.

There are perverts all over the place, even in the *shock* U.S. Senate for example.

[...of J.Temperance]

21. Well yes I agree

With your points re. The Senate and whatnot.

I would like The Vatican to take a HARDCORE approach to the issue of pedophile priests, I'd also like the Vatican to stop preaching anti-gay messages, anti-contraception messages and keep OUT of politics in general, especially on the topic of abortion.

I should add, that although I'm lapsed....I do still say my Hail Mary's, and I do believe in Heaven and Hell and I do believe in Jesus and accept him as the Son of God.

I just don't go to Church anymore, I haven't been to Church since I was about 15....although I'm getting married in a Church, so that'll be the first time I've been in a Church for 14 years.


On Edit: Added comment

[Joe Chi Minh]

28. Do you think Archbishops Romero and Camara were perverts?

If anyone's sick it's you corporatists.

If you're not pro Chavez, you're a corporatist. Chavez is not enacting any laws that haven't been arrogated to their competency by Bushco in spades long ago. Dress it up how you will, you deceive no-one.

[...of J.Temperance]

64. Oh yeah, ANOTHER DLC basher I see

"If anyone's sick it's you corporatists."

"If you're not pro-Chavez, you're a corporatist."


Thankfully not many people in the real world listen or pay attention to the sort of wacky comments like you've just come out with.


Yeah I'm PROUDLY DLC, I'm a PROUD DLCer, I'm a PROUD Capitalist....and I'm PROUDLY ANTI-DICTATORS and ANTI-DICTATORSHIPS.

[Kolesar]

137. Who said anything about the DLC? (you did) ... eom

[...of J.Temperance]

157. I refer you to post # 28 where he says to me:

"If anyone's sick it's you corporatists."


"Corporatists" is the buzz word by the anti-DLCer's to describe DLCer's like me....I'm sure you've also seen Senator Clinton and ANY Democratic person who's associated with the DLC described as "Corporatists" by the anti-DLC crowd.

[abq e streeter]

23. I used to like him...

still try to and want to, but he's sure as hell making it pretty much impossible. Unfortunately, the right wing isn't the only place where closed minded, "I've made my mind up, don't confuse me with the facts" types reside. Even though I understand people's skepticism about MSM stories about him, or for that matter, about anything and everything, its getting pretty obvious as to what Chavez is becoming. But there will apparently always be a segment of the left that will stick up for people like him no matter what assaults on freedom they undertake.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

79. i've been to venezuela several times, both before and after his election.

before, he was depicted as an animal, ready to destroy society. Then again, where I stayed, they had private armed guards constantly on patrol. One family of one of my friends was in the upper, upper, upper crust of society. I mean they have a staff fo 14 workers full time catering hand and foot. i was offended by that care and comfort.

after he was elected, that one family left the country, along with 50,000 other upper upper upper crusters. Spain, Florida, carib islands, brazil, Canada, and several other locations were prime spots.

I returned after two years of his rule. The shanty town that disgraces Caracas had water and sewer systems for the first time in history. They had ELECTRICITY. And for the first time, their kids could and had to go to school. The upper upper class stayed and was surprised how good things were getting for everyone, including themselves. The idea that a middle and lower middle class could actually occur and survive was good news for everyone. This was not trickle down shit, like the piss Bushistas, Cheneyites and Reagonomics brought us, but trickle up.

[abq e streeter]

102. Thank you for relating your experiences there.

These are the kinds of things that made me like him and want to continue to do so. And I'm with you in having nothing but contempt for the "trickle down" BS that's been destroying us economically since Ray-gun...I just see Chavez, from my admittedly distant perspective, as being a would-be dictator, and see many on the left who prefer to ignore the evils of authoritarian rule, as long as there are real economic benefits to the masses, and they defy the U.S... which are both genuinely important accomplishments. I really do appreciate your perspective with its direct experience of life there, and I hope I'm wrong about Chavez.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

105. I am not sure you are wrong, nor that I am right. I just think

that we cannot take Bush's word on anything. Especially when it involves an oil producing nation.

I suspect that he is a bit of a villian, as well as a hero, to some extent.

[LittleClarkie]

106. Would comparing him to Eva Peron offend you?

A flawed woman who really cared for the poor.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

132. I know so little about her. I cannot say.

and would not want to guess.

I don't like Chavez, but he is only 1/7 the monster some in the US make him out to be.

[LittleClarkie]

143. That's a reasonable assessment and about how I feel

He's only 1/7 as bad as some say.

He's only 1/2 as good as some say.

Both extremes annoy me alittle.

[DLnyc]

107. Thank you for injecting a dose actual, objective information into

the spinning contest.

I don't get how people think they can guess whether Chavez is a genuinely popular leader or a cynical tyrant just by GUT FEELING (ala shrub).

I would think people would want to talk to someone who's actually BEEN in Venezuela to observe the realities there.

Silly me.

[Cha]

111. Thanks for this, antifaschits..

There's no way Chavez and bush should be compared..bush doesn't help anybody but his neocon-handlers.

[Vidar]

133. Thank you for the lovely first person testimonial.

[...of J.Temperance]

164. Yeah, check Chavez' girlfriend Judi down thread

Some totally mind-boggling stuff coming from her.

Then again, yesterday she was trying to tell me that Cuba hadn't been under Dictatorship for more than 50 years (Fidel Castro and before Castro there was Fulgencio Batista)....so what should I expect....I should expect she'd like Chavez.

Dictatorships seem to be OKAY with her.

[LittleClarkie]

179. Chavez' girlfriend?

Dude, you're lowering the discourse to about grade school level.

[High Plains]

10. Damn that Chavez, with his FDR-like moves!

Not dictator for life, but elected president as long as the voters will allow it.

[...of J.Temperance]

12. How about the security forces arresting citizens bit?

You for that too?

And no Chavez is NOTHING like FDR....don't slur FDR's name by likening him to the trashy Chavez....FDR was a CLASS ACT....Chavez is a little piece of trash.

[cali]

16. Whoa. Not everything FDR did was admirable.

I'm sure you don't think highly of the internment of Japanese-Americans.

[Joe Chi Minh]

30. What's human imperfection got to do with the price of fish and chips?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[...of J.Temperance]

37. No I wouldn't have agreed with that

The interning of Japanese-Americans I agree was wrong.

But to compare Hugo Chavez to FDR is....WRONG....FDR was a....God.

I'm not having FDR's name slurred by having a little jumped-up oaf like Hugo Chavez compared to HIM.

[Vidar]

135. Well damn FDR for not being Gandhi!

[Drunken Irishman]

33. So you're cool with removing term limits here in the US?

Knowing full well Bush stole the last two elections?

Doing so is a big risk and I could definitely see the scenario where Bush wins AGAIN and continues his disastrous leadership. That scares the fuck out of me.

As much as I love FDR, I agree now that term limits are the solution. With what Bush has done the past 7 years, it's far too risky in my mind to scrap them just in hopes we can get another FDR in office.

[...of J.Temperance]

38. The thought of

W staying in office, is just....:scared:

[rAVES]

70. bad comparison, Elections in the US cant be trusted.

[Drunken Irishman]

80. And these regions have a history of trust when it comes to elections?

[rAVES]

82. Certainly not.... the CIA seen to that.

[Drunken Irishman]

100. Sadly, I don't think Chavez is any better.

And I think having no term limits is a bad idea.

[SyntaxError]

123. Any reasons to believe he isn't any better?

Past actions or anything of the sort?

[Drunken Irishman]

130. Well this for starters...

Chavez's reform plan, which voters are expected to approve in a December referendum, also includes allowing security forces to detain citizens without charge during political "emergencies" or major natural disasters.

Yeah I know, it's the MSM and we can't believe everything they say, but this sounds normal for him.

[defendandprotect]

101. What term limits -- aren't most of the voluntary? Except President now . . . ????

I think we have a problem with that, as well --

[Drunken Irishman]

103. Depends on the state, I believe.

[defendandprotect]

116. Yeah -- and when Repug professed they'd follow term limits, they didn't . . . !!!

It was a way to break into Democratic strong holds in Congress ---

Public evidently bought some of these notions .. . ???

I imparticularly don't like the presidential limits .... because I think it creates a more
viable VP as future presidential candidate.

[LittleClarkie]

63. Did FDR react to criticism this way too?

Whether you agree with the church or not, one would hope that a mature leader would react better to someone disagreeing with him. "We are ashamed." Who the heck is we? Chavez and the mouse in his pocket?

[...of J.Temperance]

65. Hugo Chavez is a

Little jumped-up shit and he KNOWS it.

[Joe Chi Minh]

8. I wonder where the sympathies of the late archbishops, Romero and Camara,

would lie in this matter?

"When I give to the poor they call me a saint; when I ask why the poor have no food, the call me a Communist..." - Archbishop Helder Camara."

Archbishop Oscar Romero's blood also speaks eloquently and to the point, doesn't it?

[...of J.Temperance]

9. Dunno, all I know is that the Democratic Party aren't pro-Chavez n/t

.

[High Plains]

13. Well, that settles it then.

Do you mean the same Democratic Party that sleep-walked its way into Iraq?

The same Democratic Party that is about to roll over for the next imperialist war in Iran?

That Democratic Party?

Yeah, well, I may hold my nose and vote for Democrats, but they ain't they be-all and end-all.

[redqueen]

14. ...

:applause:



:rofl: "Flays"? Really? :rofl:

[...of J.Temperance]

15. It's not the policy of the Democratic Party to support Hugo Chavez

And I do not support Hugo Chavez.

As far as I know, Iraq and Iran have nothing to do with NOT supporting Hugo Chavez.

[Judi Lynn]

19. Maybe you simply have forgotten that for the last several years,Democratic Senators, Representatives

Governors, have contacted Venezuela in search of discounted oil for winter heating for their economically disadvantaged constituents, as well as the leaders of many American Native tribes.

It has been publicised and discussed here at D.U. every single year since it started, with great support. Photos have been taken in various cities informing the readers of the trucks when they arrived with their first supplies each year.

Democrats.

[Judi Lynn]

20. I neglected to mention they started contacting the Venezuelan government AFTER having first

approached American oil companies in search of relief for their poor, and were blown off unceremoniously.

Once again, these politicians who found winter heating relief for their constituents were DEMOCRATS.

[...of J.Temperance]

42. They just wanted cheap oil, doesn't mean that they SUPPORT or LIKE Hugo Chavez

You don't have to SUPPORT or LIKE someone in order to use them for something you want....and in the case of those Governors and Senators, they used him for cheap oil for their constituents.

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. "Dunno"? Best keep stum then, perhaps. I'm an economic liberal, a social

conservative... the Only Way. The Only Center.

Today, your economic conservatives have lurched so far to the right, even Nixon wouldn't recognise them.

[...of J.Temperance]

39. Huh? What does my being a Centrist Democrat HAVE to do with this?

Well?

[Joe Chi Minh]

41. It's a mythical center you claim, that's what! Edwards and Kucinich are

your political center. No two ways about it.

[...of J.Temperance]

45. Would you approve of George W. Bush changing the Constitution and scrapping term limits?

If the answer is no....WHY is it okay for Hugo Chavez to change the Venezuelan Constitution and scrap term limits?

Kucinich is the political center? Lol! Hey can I have some of the stuff you're smoking, it MUST be really good!

[Joe Chi Minh]

59. it doesn't seem to matter whether anybody approves of anything Bush does!

"Kucinich is the political center? Lol! Hey can I have some of the stuff you're smoking, it MUST be really good!"

You can only be a knave or a fool. It's not rocket science that physical survival counts for an awful lot to most human beings, and you're the only country in the western world without a free health service for all.

[...of J.Temperance]

86. So you AGREE with Chavez detaining citizens WITHOUT charge?

That's okay with you?

[Judi Lynn]

90. Since you keep repeating your charge, demanding people answer you,

you really need to provide a SOURCE for this claim FIRST so people will have any idea what you're discussing.

If you're not getting answers it's because no one knows what you're talking about.

Take a breather, go get your reference, and post it.

[...of J.Temperance]

109. My source is IN the OP linked article, if you read it

"Chavez's reform plan, which voters are expected to approve in a December referendum, also includes allowing security forces to detain citizens without charge during political "emergencies" or major natural disasters."


So the Chavez Fan Club MUST know what I'm meaning, if they bothered to read the OP....I guess the Chavez Cheerleaders are just scared to answer the question huh?


Is is okay with the Chavez Fan Club, that Hugo wants to allow the security forces to detain citizens without charge?

[indievoter]

115. Venezuela: Disturbing Plan to Suspend Due Process

New York, October 16, 2007) – A constitutional amendment proposed by a pro-government committee in Venezuela’s National Assembly would allow the suspension of due process protections, Human Rights Watch said today.

The amendment would eliminate the constitutional prohibition on suspending due process rights in states of emergency. Under Venezuela’s constitution, these rights include, among others: the right to the presumption of innocence and to a fair trial; the right to an attorney; the right against self-incrimination; the right of a defendant to know the charges and evidence against him; and the right against double jeopardy.

“This amendment, if approved, would allow President Chávez to invoke a state of emergency to justify suspending certain rights that are untouchable under international law,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch.

Human Rights Watch noted that under international law many of these rights are considered so fundamental that countries are not permitted to derogate from their obligations to respect them – even in a state of emergency. Both the United Nations Human Rights Committee and the Inter-American Court of Human Rights have made this clear.

The proposed amendments would also eliminate previous constitutional time limits on states of emergency. In addition, the amendments eliminate the requirement that the Constitutional Tribunal review the decree regulating the suspension of rights during times of emergency, as well as language establishing that such a decree “meet the requirements, principles, and guarantees established in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the American Convention on Human Rights.”

Proponents of the amendment have argued that the government needs to have free rein to suspend due process and other rights, including the right to freedom of information, in the event of another coup attempt like that which occurred in April of 2002 against President Hugo Chávez.

However, Human Rights Watch pointed out that it is during highly politicized emergencies that it becomes most pressing to respect basic due process guarantees, such as protections against arbitrary detention and the right to a fair trial.

“Recent Latin American history shows that it is precisely during states of emergency that countries need strong judicial protections to prevent abuse,” said Vivanco. “Otherwise, what has historically prevailed is the brutal exercise of power.”

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/10/16/venezu17104.htm

[Judi Lynn]

96. Is it possible you are confusing Chavez with the coup plotters who had

their men in the military ARREST Hugo Chavez and kidnap him at gunpoint? Is THAT what you're thinking of?

Guess what! They were not all rounded up and packed off to a Venezuelan Guantanamo. Nope.

God only knows what would have happened to them if they had tried that on the creature who stole the White House.

[...of J.Temperance]

113. No, I'm referring to what's in the OP that's linked in the article....the NEW Chavez stuff

About where Chavez wants to allow the security forces to detain citizens without charge during "political disturbances AND natural disasters"

WHY would Chavez or ANY leader want new powers to "detain" citizens WITHOUT CHARGE during a NATURAL DISASTER?

Don't you think there's something rather unsettling and disturbing about that?

[cali]

46. Bwahahah.

Denial much, Mr. Marx? I certainly don't think either of them have ideas about governing that are out of the mainstream, but the political center is ultimately definable only by how people vote. Yes, yes, I know, all the voters are manipulated by the MSM, and though that holds SOME truth, it's not the entire truth. Your sweeping assertion is pretty funny.

[Joe Chi Minh]

60. We'll see. Kerry's platform was a New Deal, and they sure came out in force for him.

See who's scoffing come election time.

Marx (...recognition at last! Can't get enough of it).

[LittleClarkie]

99. Well, I thought it was an honest answer. What would the dead dude say?

Best answer is "dunno."

Better than speaking for the dead and/or their blood, anyway.

[0007]

140. Very well said!

:toast:
:toast::toast:
:toast::toast::toast:
:toast::toast:
:toast:

:toast:
:toast::toast:
:toast::toast::toast:
:toast::toast:
:toast:

[PurityOfEssence]

31. Oh, but this is METAPHORICAL! Toy with my affections...mutter, mutter, mutter

He certainly is the gift that goes on giving. I wonder if this is what George Galloway would be like if he had his own little fiefdom?

Interesting guy, this Chavez; damned good theatre, too.

[spoony]

144. Does Venezuela have a "Big Brother"?

:P

[DS1]

48. Just think, it used to be the other way around

[LittleClarkie]

49. "We"? Is he speaking for more than himself, or has he adopted the royal pronoun?

We are not amused.

[MasonJar]

51. It does say that it is a referendum, so the people can vote it down.

In the USA there would have to be a different type of action to legitimately change the Constitution. If Bush did it on his own, that would be different from what it appears is happening in Venezuela.

[...of J.Temperance]

58. It also says that the "voters" are "expected to approve" the Constitution change

How do they KNOW that "voters" are "expected to approve" the Constitution change....the "vote" ISN'T happening until December....seems they've already "decided" the result before anyone's even "voted"

I used George W. Bush as an immediate and hypothetical comparison....IF W could change the Constitution ala Hugo Chavez and scrap term limits, thus setting himself up for Dictator-For-Life....you can BET that NOBODY that's Rah Rah Rahing Chavez on this, would agree with W doing the same thing.

So WHY is it okay for Chavez to make this incredibly disturbing move?

Also, I keep asking, but NOBODY so far has answered this:

What about the bit that says Chavez wants to allow the security forces to detain citizens without charge during "political disturbances and natural disasters"

Is THAT okay, do you AGREE with that? If so, then WHY? Sounds like Martial Law to me....and we know what comes with Martial Law don't we, for one thing they can cancel ALL elections for the forseeable future ie. forever.

Here's my take:

Chavez changes the Constitution, scraps term limits....stands in next election, "wins" next election....opposition supporters have some protest or whatever....Chavez interprets this protest as a "political disturbance"....under his new powers he declares Martial Law....ALL elections in Venezuela then FINITO for the forseeable future ie. forever.

[rAVES]

71. LOL! your country has pretty much the same bleeding laws already!

AND IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF OVER 1 MILLION IRAQI'S!!
(lets not even try count the dead since the 50's on)

Try looking in the mirror there "dead cert" Hillary.

[...of J.Temperance]

87. So you AGREE with Chavez detaining citizens WITHOUT charge?

That's okay with you?

[rAVES]

97. No.

but Americans have a cheek to be judging him.

Read the patriot act.

[...of J.Temperance]

110. Okay, I appreciate that you at least answered my question n/t

.

[Flanker]

136. Surely you know about polls, no?

Or do neocons always ignore polling by default?

Typical DLC, but if Hillary is elected you will trust that election no?

Hehe.

[LanternWaste]

Voters are expected to vote against

Voters are expected to vote against Proposition 21 in in Dallas...

:shrug:

[raebrek]

53. Why does this article have the sound of one of my young nephews

The Catholic Church leadership says that rewriting the Venezuelan constitution to scrap term limits is morally unacceptable.

President Chavez's response. No, you're morally unacceptable. Does it sound like an unruly 10 year old talking to an adult or is it just me?

Raebrek

[LittleClarkie]

75. I know you are but what am I

No, not just you.

When he and Bush get going they both sound like they're fighting in a grade school yard.

[onehandle]

55. Don't they mean, "Dictator for Life, Chavez?"

Some DUers say it's ok when when "good guys" change the law to benefit themselves.

Chavez knows best. Right?

[CatholicEdHead]

56. Siding with the term limits here

they should stay in their constitution. Like other posters have said, this is a very slippery slope.

[Ian David]

57. It looks like the catholic church is right on this one. n/t

[defendandprotect]

95. The Vatican is there to protect and support patriarchal elite, capitalism ---

[Joe Chi Minh]

62. Read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2109682

Next question? I mean, of course, about the wickedness of Chavez, seeking to defend the poor against the merciless depredations of the all too rich and ruthless.

Why is it you peope are always so sorry for the rich, yet don't seem to care about the poor?

[cali]

66. my, my. you are fond of sweeping generalizations

I won't speak for anyone else but I admire what Chavez has done for the poor. That doesn't mean I admire his changing the constitution or proposing that he has the right to detain people secretly and without due process in an emergency.

[LittleClarkie]

76. I like you cali

I like your balanced view. Some seem to forget this isn't a sporting event. You can support and yet be concerned by someone, both at the same time. There is something between "yea" and "boo".

[Joe Chi Minh]

152. Why do I get the impression that if you and the other anti-Chavez posters

on here admire Chavez for what he has done for the poor, it would be as some colourfully exotic, nay, quixotic deviancy (as some right-wing loon suggested above). How is it you feel so much compassion for the rich, and so little for the poor. If you admire Ugo's helping of the poor, why do make such a big deal of his getting a grip of the rich parasites who suck the life-blood out of the people? Why does not their life-style of ultra parasitic excess not fill you with revulsion and rage?

If those bishops speak for leadership of the Church, I hope they realise - if only from reading threads like these - what kind of people they are aligning themselves with yet again. It has already led to two world wars. It certainly wasn't Christ's way. His diatribes against their kind in the Israel of his day could not have been more extreme - truly incandescent. God's providential economy is indeed very patient, but it is Christ who is our model and the head of the Church, his Church, and he certainly wasn't patient with them in the manner or intensity of his denunciations and warnings.

"That doesn't mean I admire his changing the constitution or proposing that he has the right to detain people secretly and without due process in an emergency."

How do you feel about your own Government's doing the same? Ugo's emergency legislation is in response to murderous right-wing despotisms, which have so scarred South America for long, and not without the criminal interference of the US, its Monro Doctrine, School of the Americas, etc.

[0rganism]

67. Quite a change from 500 years ago, when Catholic leaders flayed heretics

Of course, those flayings weren't mere editorial license designed with an eye toward exciting hyperbolic fancy. :eyes:

How long ago was it that Negroponte's buddies in Honduras (DNI) were torturing nuns and throwing them out of helicopters over the jungle? 1981? For some reason, I don't recall the press ever making much of a stink about that at the time -- or even when Negroponte got appointed as a different DNI back in 2005. But I guess those Catholics didn't count, cos they were fleeing El Salvador after Archbishop Romero's assasination.

I trust the "free" press will find a way to lavish upon Hugo Chavez all the scrutiny they somehow bottled up during Suazo's bloody reign.

[Judi Lynn]

68. Something useful for those who are inclined to read:The Catholic Church in Venezuela

25 October 2005
The Catholic Church in Venezuela

Leonardo Boff, one of the founders of Liberation Theology, said, “"For
500 years, there have been two Catholic Churches in Brazil: one of the
rich and one of the poor.”" I have many friends who are priests and nuns
who work with the poor in Brazil. Their sacrifice and dedication are a
great source of inspiration to me.

I spoke at length with Charlie Hardy, a former Catholic priest from
Wyoming, USA, who has lived in Venezuela for more than 20 years. As a
priest with the Maryknoll Order, he used to live in a slum barrio with
no electricity, running water or toilets for many years. Because of his
strong sympathies with the poor, he is a supporter of the anti-poverty
programs of President Hugo Chavez. His insightful blog site, “"Cowboy in
Caracas: A Voice from the New America"” is: http://fuego.net/

Charlie explained that because of a historical Concordia agreement
between the government of Venezuela and the Vatican, only Venezuelan-born priests are allowed to become bishops in that country. A popular saying in the Church is that when a Venezuelan priest is newly ordained, he is told, “You have to decide, do you want to serve the people or become a bishop?” It means that if a priest decides to work with the poor, he will never be promoted in the Church heirarchy.

The Venezuelan bishops that are published in the newspapers invariably
criticize the Chavez government. (The newspapers are owned by the
superrich who are opposed to Chavez.) For example, Cardinal Rosalio
Castillo Lara said to journalists on Oct. 22 that Venezuelans ought to
“"deny recognition"” to the Chavez government and organize civil
disobedience against because it because it is, "“ill-fated and dangerous".”

High level Church officials criticize Chavez because he reduced
government spending for private schools, which affected Catholic
schools. During the April 2002 coup attempt, Cardinal Ignacio Velasco
tried to persuade Chavez to sign a letter resigning from the presidency
while he was under military arrest.
(snip/...)

http://proutaftercapitalism.blogspot.com/2005/10/catholic-church-in-venezuela.html

[LittleClarkie]

73. I bookmarked the Cowboy blog. Thanks for the link

I'm interested in the voices of those who have been there

[provis99]

69. Catholic leaders oppose authoritarianism? How ironic

The hierarchy of the Catholic church is the most perfect example of degenerate fascism in the world today, and they're giving lectures on democracy? Screw those rotten old farts in the Vatican. Let them have a democracy for once.

[defendandprotect]

98. Plus the "Christian" Robertson suggesting Chavez should be assassinated -- !!!!

Onward Christian Soldiers . . . marching as to war ---

hmmm.....

[LittleClarkie]

112. Fundies and Catholics are sorta different

they don't like each other, for one thing.

Fundies tend to think Catholics are idolaters who need to be converted.

[LanternWaste]

149. I'm sure you can provide the moral absolute

I'm sure you can provide the moral absolute as to who may or may nor lecture people on Democracy...

[srf Rantz]

74. I wouldn't believe a word of it

having just watched John Pilger's War on Democracy film this afternoon.

it details how the right wing opposition forces in Venezuela smeared him constantly (with US financial backing) leading up to, during, and after the coup few years back, (also financed in part by US govt.) and how the media there and here regurgitated it as truth. little to none of what they said about him was true then.

my guess this is more Chavez-bashing and disinformation.

look, these are people are who led their own anti-chavez demonstrators into a trap where their own snipers killed them so they could blame it on Chavez's supporters and launch the coup.

[sorrywrongemail]

77. I'm Catholic

but the Pope supported that wonderful regime of Augusto Pinochet's in Chile.

So it really has no room to talk.

[Judi Lynn]

83. Not to mention the way the Church accomodated the murderous Argentinian junta,

only recently in the news again:

Source: Sydney Morning Herald

Argentina's torture priest given a life sentence
Patrick McDonnell in Buenos Aires
October 11, 2007

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/10/10/christianvonwernich_wideweb__470x311,0.jpg

No, a hanging's not on the cards, Father … the chaplain reacts as the
verdict is read in the La Plata court.
Photo: AP

A CATHOLIC priest accused of collaborating with Argentina's military dictatorship more than two decades ago has been convicted of crimes against humanity and sentenced to life in prison.

The case of Father Christian Federico von Wernich, 69, a former police chaplain, had become a rallying cry among human-rights activists who said it was the first time the church's alleged complicity with the former junta had been addressed in court.
(snip)

The prosecution charged that Von Wernich abused his clerical status by offering spiritual comfort to prisoners, then informing on them to the police. The prisoners later were tortured and killed.
(snip)

A three-judge panel found him guilty of crimes against humanity in connection with what it called a genocide committed during the dictatorship.

Official figures indicate about 11,000 people were killed or "disappeared" during the rule by military juntas, from 1976 to 1983, but human-rights activists say the number was closer to 30,000.

More:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/argentinas-torture-priest-given-a-life-sentence/2007/10/10/1191695990475.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3024674

[Matilda]

114. The Catholic Church in Venezuela was also open in its support for the 2002 coup

against Chavez. They publicly supported the illegal regime of Pedro Carmona, a shameful act on their
part (and I say this as a practising Catholic myself).

To those who see elimination of term limits as a sign that Chavez is setting himself up as dictator,
eliminating term limits in itself isn't bad, as long as the country still has open and fair
elections. In Australia, we have no term limits, but we do have elections approximately every
three years (the Prime Minister has some eleasticity as to when they are called, but there are
limited as to how long he can wait). It's the elections that are important, and elections
in Venezuela have been more closely monitored than those in the U.S. in recent years, and there's
no evidence of fraud on the part of the Chavez Government.

As for arrest and detention without charge - no way can any thinking person support that anywhere.
But under anti-terrorism laws, we now have that situation in Australia; Blair introduced the same
in the U.K., and you have it in the U.S. It should always be resisted, but sadly it's been
creeping in all over the so-called free world since 9/11. Given the history of U.S. interference
in Latin America, Chavez probably has more excuse than your leader or ours to introduce these laws,
but I'm sorry to see it, just as I'm sorry to see it in my own country. But at least Chavez is
putting the matter to a referendum, which is more than Bush, Blair, or Howard did. I'd still put
him a few steps above those three "democratic" leaders.

[Judi Lynn]

117. Yes, I remember seeing images of clergy in the Presidential Palace, Miraflores,

with the coup officials. You bet! Tacky, ugly, and violent event.

Maybe you recall the Venezuelan government discovering over 100 paramilitaries from Colombia, quartered on a ranch outside Caracas a couple of years ago. Here's a refresher:

The Venezuelan elite imports soldiers
by Marta Harnecker
May 23, 2004

If anything has become clear following the discovery of an incursion of a significantly large paramilitary group into the country, it is that the 'anti-Bolivarian and anti-Venezuelan oligarchy and its masters in the north' have not been able to recruit Venezuelan soldiers for their subversive objectives and 'have been forced to recruit them in another country,' as expressed President Chavez in front of tens of thousands of people, who gathered in Caracas this past Sunday, May 16th, to demonstrate their rejection of paramilitary activity and to express their support for peace.

Since 'the conspiracies against Venezuela do not end with the capture of mercenaries in Caracas,' there must be many other infiltrators in other areas of the country; since this is not an isolated action, but one whose efforts to stop the process continue, one can reach but only one conclusion: it is necessary to prepare oneself for self-defense. This is why the President considered it opportune to take advantage of the occasion and to announce three strategic lines for defending the country. The most radical proposal was a call for the population to massively participate in the defense of the nation.

A week earlier, on the 9th of May, on the outskirts of Caracas, a paramilitary force was discovered, dressed in field uniforms. Later, more were found, raising the total to 130, leaving open the possibility that there are still more in the country. The three Colombian paramilitary leaders of the group are members of the Autonomous Self-Defense Forces (AUC) in Northern Santander state in Colombia.

Some of the captured Colombian fighters have a long history as members of paramilitary forces. Others are reservists of the Colombian army and yet others were specifically recruited for the task in Venezuela and were surely tricked. Among these there are several who are minors.

A colonel of the Venezuelan air force was also detained, as well as seven officers of the National Guard. Among those implicated in the plot is a group of civilians headed by the Cuban Roberto Alonso, creator of the 'guarimbas,'<1> and Gustavo Quintero Machado, a Venezuelan, both who are currently wanted by the Venezuelan justice system.
(snip/...)

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=5579

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Colombian paramilitaries arrested in Venezuela

Jeremy Lennard and agencies
Monday May 10, 2004
Guardian Unlimited

Venezuelan police have arrested more than 70 Colombian paramilitary fighters who were allegedly plotting to strike against the government in Caracas, according to the country's president, Hugo Chávez.
Opposition leaders, however, were quick to dismiss the president's claim, calling the raids on a farm less than 10 miles from the capital a ruse to divert attention from their efforts to oust Mr Chávez in a recall vote.
(snip)

"Now they are importing terrorists," Mr Chávez said of his opponents, adding that the farm - in the municipality of El Hatillo - was owned by Roberto Alonso, a Cuban exile with links to Venezuelan and Cuban exiles.

"There are people in the United States who keep thinking how to start a war in Venezuela so that they can justify an invasion," he said.

Mr Chávez has frequently claimed that Venezuela's opposition - including a number of military officers who briefly ousted him from power in a short-lived coup attempt in April 2002 - has conspired to overthrow his government with US backing. Washington denies any involvement.

The allegations come as an opposition campaign to force a recall election against the president enters a decisive phase.
(snip/...)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,1213445,00.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Colombian paramilitaries, after capture by Venezuelan forces.

Uribe admits anti-Chavez plot planned in Colombia


AFP, SANTA MARTA, COLOMBIA
Monday, Dec 19, 2005, Page 7
Venezuelan former soldiers plotted against President Hugo Chavez's government at a Colombian military building, Colombian President Alvaro Uribe said.

Uribe made the stunning disclosure on Saturday at the Caribbean resort town of Santa Marta where he is meeting with Chavez, and after analyzing documents furnished by Chavez.

"The Venezuelan soldiers who are in Bogota went to a building to meet with members of the Colombian military. President Chavez gave us these documents ... we analyzed them and this morning I said to President Chavez: `I must tell you the truth: this is a building of Colombia's public forces,'" he said.

Uribe said that intelligence efforts against the Venezuelan government are conducted in the building, and took full responsibility for the affair.

The two presidents met for six hours amid a climate of unusual goodwill on Saturday to discuss the purported Bogota-based conspiracy against the Venezuelan president, which Chavez first disclosed to his Colombian counterpart during a meeting in Venezuela on Nov. 24.

Seven Venezuelans involved in a 48-hour coup against Chavez in April 2002 have been linked to the new plot. Businessman Pedro Carmona, leader of the failed military-civilian coup, enjoys political asylum in Colombia, where he is working as a university professor.
(snip/...)

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2005/12/19/2003285082

[Judi Lynn]

119. Information of Colombian right-wing plans to assassinate Chavez came out last year,

from a different source. You may recall reading about it. The immediate result was that Colombian President Alvaro Uribe had to fire the head of his D.A.S., who had known about it:

April 13, 2006
The DAS scandals
If you’ve ever traveled to Colombia, then you’ve seen the DAS, the government’s Administrative Department for Security. As soon as you get off the plane, DAS employees are there to stamp your passport and, perhaps, to ask why you’re visiting.

The DAS does much more than stamp passports, though. It is a powerful agency, a sort of “secret police” institution founded in 1960. Its principal purpose is intelligence and counterintelligence, both domestic and international. However, it is also a law enforcement body whose agents have judicial police powers – they investigate crimes and can arrest and interrogate people. The DAS also provides bodyguards and security services for high government officials and other people at risk.
(snip)

A hit on Chávez?

Though he offers few details, citing concerns about his security, García has told Colombia’s press that “there existed a destabilization plan against the Venezuelan government, and there are many Colombian government people involved.”

García contends that Noguera and others were drawing up plans to kill high officials in the Venezuelan government, including leftist President Hugo Chávez. His allegations recall the 2004 arrest of 114 Colombian men at a compound near Caracas, a combination of young campesinos from Norte de Santander department and paramilitaries from the Jorge 40'sNorthern Bloc. At the time, Chávez described the Colombians’ presence as part of a plot to kill him.

Six months after that episode, Venezuela was shaken by the assassination of prosecutor Danilo Anderson, the first such attack the country had seen in over thirty years. Last November a Colombian man, identifying himself as a demobilized paramilitary member who served the DAS as an intelligence source, told Venezuelan authorities that Noguera had advance knowledge of a plan to kill high-ranking Venezuelan officials like Anderson and President Chávez. García’s testimony lends credibility to this witness’s story. Venezuelan authorities also claim that “Jorge 40” paid a visit to Maracaibo, Venezuela, to meet with anti-Chávez figures.
(snip/...)

http://www.ciponline.org/colombia/blog/archives/000242.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As you see, this also involved the bombing murder of the Venezuelan prosecutor who was looking into the coup plotters, Danilo Anderson.

[Dave From Canada]

126. You're in every Chavez thread, defending him, even when he acts like Bush, shame on you.

[...of J.Temperance]

127. Let's face it, it's pointless attempting to communicate with Judi Lynn about this

On any sort of logical or even rational level....I believe Judi Lynn has bought the propaganda and is somewhat brainwashed.

She thinks that butter wouldn't melt in Hugo Chavez'(s) mouth, it's rather sad actually....that she takes such immense pains to defend what IS the INDEFENSIBLE:

Chavez is setting himself up to be Dictator-For-Life, and under his plan he intends to:

"The amendment would eliminate the constitutional prohibition on suspending due process rights in states of emergency. Under Venezuela’s constitution, these rights include, among others: the right to the presumption of innocence and to a fair trial; the right to an attorney; the right against self-incrimination; the right of a defendant to know the charges and evidence against him; and the right against double jeopardy.

“This amendment, if approved, would allow President Chávez to invoke a state of emergency to justify suspending certain rights that are untouchable under international law,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch.

Human Rights Watch noted that under international law many of these rights are considered so fundamental that countries are not permitted to derogate from their obligations to respect them – even in a state of emergency. Both the United Nations Human Rights Committee and the Inter-American Court of Human Rights have made this clear."


Human Rights Watch is hardly a Right-Wing organization, I thought I'd better get that comment in, in case Judi Lynn attempts to suggest that Human Rights Watch are in some way biased in these particular matters.

Let's remind ourselves of what and who Human Rights Watch are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch

[lawn2garden]

139. I like Judi_lynn!

Her well researched posts and comments are invaluable to DU and I'm sure many others would agree. Besides, much of the propaganda and "brainwashing" is orchestrated by the media here in this country...Reuters.

[Judi Lynn]

145. lawn2garden, glad to see you! You may find this excerpt from a great article

posted by a DU'er long ago, to be very helpful, and it most certainly reinforces your perceptions (and those of many others):

~snip~
Journalism is a perfect cover for CIA agents. People talk freely to journalists, and few think suspiciously of a journalist aggressively searching for information. Journalists also have power, influence and clout. Not surprisingly, the CIA began a mission in the late 1940s to recruit American journalists on a wide scale, a mission it dubbed Operation MOCKINGBIRD. The agency wanted these journalists not only to relay any sensitive information they discovered, but also to write anti-communist, pro-capitalist propaganda when needed.

The instigators of MOCKINGBIRD were Frank Wisner, Allan Dulles, Richard Helms and Philip Graham. Graham was the husband of Katherine Graham, today’s publisher of the Washington Post. In fact, it was the Post’s ties to the CIA that allowed it to grow so quickly after the war, both in readership and influence. (8)

MOCKINGBIRD was extraordinarily successful. In no time, the agency had recruited at least 25 media organizations to disseminate CIA propaganda. At least 400 journalists would eventually join the CIA payroll, according to the CIA’s testimony before a stunned Church Committee in 1975. (The committee felt the true number was considerably higher.) The names of those recruited reads like a Who's Who of journalism:

• Philip and Katharine Graham (Publishers, Washington Post)
  
• William Paley (President, CBS)
  
• Henry Luce (Publisher, Time and Life magazine)
  
• Arthur Hays Sulzberger (Publisher, N.Y. Times)
  
• Jerry O'Leary (Washington Star)
  
• Hal Hendrix (Pulitzer Prize winner, Miami News)
  
• Barry Bingham Sr., (Louisville Courier-Journal)
  
• James Copley (Copley News Services)
  
• Joseph Harrison (Editor, Christian Science Monitor)
  
• C.D. Jackson (Fortune)
  
• Walter Pincus (Reporter, Washington Post)
  
• ABC
  
• NBC
  
• Associated Press
  
• United Press International
  
• Reuters
  
• Hearst Newspapers
  
• Scripps-Howard
  
• Newsweek magazine
  
• Mutual Broadcasting System
  
• Miami Herald
  
• Old Saturday Evening Post
  
• New York Herald-Tribune

http://www.aliveness.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For further study, here's a grand example to the slick work done by Richard Nixon with the use of Chile's largest newspaper during the time he moved against Salvador Allende, first to keep him from being elected, then, when that failed, to condition the Chilean people for a violent overthrow of their elected President:

The El Mercurio File
Secret Documents Shine New Light on How the CIA Used a Newspaper to Foment a Coup

BY PETER KORNBLUH

September 11, a day of infamy in the U.S., is also a dark day in the history of Chile. This 9/11 marks the thirtieth anniversary of the coup that brought General Augusto Pinochet to power. Although former U.S. officials such as Henry Kissinger have insisted that Washington had no involvement in the military takeover, and was trying only to preserve democracy in Chile, CIA and White House records, analyzed here for the first time, show how the CIA used Chilean media to undermine the democratically elected government of Socialist Salvador Allende, an operation that "played a significant role in setting the stage for the military coup of 11 September 1973." From these documents emerges the story of the agency's main propaganda project — authorized at the highest level of the U.S. government — which relied upon Chile's leading newspaper, El Mercurio, and its well-connected owner, Agustín Edwards. In Chile, the aged Edwards remains an influential media power, and here in the U.S., covert action has again been unleashed and executive-branch secrecy is on the rise. The story behind 9/11/73 continues to echo.

For the better part of two years, a group of editors, journalism students, and human rights lawyers in Santiago, Chile, have been gathering evidence against their country's leading media mogul, Agustín Edwards, to, at minimum, have him expelled from the press guild, the Academy of Chilean Journalists. The editor of the leftist magazine Punto Final, Manuel Cabieses, has filed a formal petition accusing Edwards of violating the academy's code of ethics by conspiring with the Nixon White House and the CIA between 1970 and 1973 to foment the military coup that overthrew the elected government of Salvador Allende and brought General Augusto Pinochet to power, thirty years ago this month.

"Doonie," as Edwards is known to his closest friends, is the patriarch of the press - a Chilean Rupert Murdoch. His media empire encompasses Chile's renowned national newspaper, El Mercurio, a second national paper, Ultimas Noticias, and Santiago's leading afternoon paper, La Segunda, along with a dozen smaller regional journals. In September 1970, when Chileans narrowly elected Allende, a Socialist, to the presidency, Edwards was widely considered to be the richest man in Chile — and the individual with the most to lose financially from Allende's election.

The ethics charges against Edwards are likely to receive a boost from a careful analysis of formerly secret U.S. documents that shed considerable new light on CIA covert media operations in Chile. Since 1975, when a special congressional committee chaired by Idaho Senator Frank Church issued its report, Covert Action in Chile: 1963-1973, it has been no secret that the CIA provided significant funding to El Mercurio, put reporters and editors on its payroll, and used the paper, in the committee's words, as "the most important channel for anti-Allende propaganda." But with the declassification of thousands of CIA and White House records at the end of the Clinton administration, the history of the "El Mercurio Project" emerges in far greater detail. Among the key revelations in the documents:
(snip/...)

http://cjrarchives.org/issues/2003/5/chile-kornbluh.asp?printerfriendly=yes

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's what they were implementing a long time ago. God only knows how much more proficient they are by now.

Welcome to D.U., lawn2garden! :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[0007]

142. Oh God! At least Juli Lynn can come up with links to support

the argument. Do you have another definition for Propaganda? Your wikipedia link was in left field.

[Judi Lynn]

146. 0007, you probably read this article posted by a DU'er already, but in case you didn't,

this is very interesting:

Journalism and the CIA: The Mighty Wurlitzer
~snip~
The committee staff was shocked at the extent of the CIA's activity in this area, and felt that they still didn't have the story. But they were running out of time, and expected that the Senate's new permanent oversight committee would continue their work. The Church committee's final report contained only a handful of vague and misleading pages on the CIA and the media. "It hardly reflects what was found," stated Senator Gary Hart. "There was a prolonged and elaborate negotiation over what would be said."<5>

The House investigation of the CIA, under Otis Pike, had more problems than the Senate investigation. The full House voted to suppress its committee's final report under pressure from the executive branch, at which point Daniel Schorr of CBS leaked a copy to the Village Voice. This report contained just twelve paragraphs on the topic of the CIA and the media, including the tidbit about the CIA's "frequent manipulation of Reuters wire service dispatches."<6> Another paragraph gave some idea of the scope of the CIA's efforts in this area:

Some 29 percent of Forty Committee-approved covert actions were for media and propaganda projects. This number is probably not representative. Staff has determined the existence of a large number of CIA internally-approved operations of this type, apparently deemed not politically sensitive. It is believed that if the correct number of all media and propaganda projects could be determined, it would exceed Election Support as the largest single category of covert action projects undertaken by the CIA.<7>

One enterprising researcher took this 29 percent figure, and extrapolating from figures on CIA expenditures for covert operations, found that the cost of propaganda in 1978 was around $265 million and involved 2,000 personnel. Comparing this to figures for other news agencies, he concluded that the CIA "uses far more resources in its propaganda operations than any single news agency.... In fact, the CIA propaganda budget is as large as the combined budgets of Reuters, United Press International and the Associated Press."<8>
CBS took Daniel Schorr off the air after he leaked the Pike committee report. This was most likely a convenient opportunity for William Paley, chairman of CBS, who didn't approve of Schorr's interest in the network's own CIA connection. Former CBS News president Sig Mickelson, who by 1976 was president of Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty, said that in October 1954, Paley called him into his office for a friendly discussion with two CIA officials. Schorr mentioned this on Walter Cronkite's show, and in an op-ed piece for the New York Times (Arthur Hays Sulzberger, the late publisher of the Times, had been cozy with the CIA also). "There are executives and retired executives," Schorr wrote, "who could help dispel the cloud hanging over the press by coming forward to tell the arrangements they made with the CIA."<9>

Little had changed since 1974, when Michael J. Harrington, a Democratic congressman from Massachusetts, leaked Colby's closed-door testimony about CIA involvement in the 1973 coup in Chile. Harrington soon found himself the target of a formal Ethics Committee investigation; now Schorr was also their target. Apparently Congress was fearful that the executive branch might paint them as bungling and irresponsible when it came to keeping secrets, and then use this as a club to deprive them of access to information.
(snip/...)

http://www.namebase.org/news17.html

On edit, adding:

A blue-ribbon panel of the Council on Foreign Relations suggested last year that the CIA be freed from some policy constraints on covert operations, such as the use of journalists and clergy as cover. This is alarming. Unlike the typical corporate-funded think tank, filled with pro-Pentagon pundits, the folks at CFR are either running the world or they know who does. For 70 years they've rarely recommended anything that has not become policy. Furthermore, they've thoroughly co-opted the major media (see sidebar).

There have also been official announcements that the CIA is mission-creeping into economic intelligence and computer-age information warfare. This might reflect a bit of nostalgia for the job security and moral clarity of the Cold War, or it could be a premonition that the American Century is over and the masses are expected to get uppity. Perhaps the First Amendment has always been something of a con -- a matter of "freedom," but only for those who own the presses, or for those who lived in an earlier century, before psywar and public relations experts.

Then again, stay tuned -- the credibility gap is back. A recent poll shows that Americans are fed up with mainstream news media. "Very favorable" ratings for television network news fell from 30 percent in 1985 to just 15 percent this year, and for large national newspapers it dropped 12 percent. A majority now believe that news stories are often inaccurate.<24>

After factoring in the new global economics and recalculating the prospects for the middle class, all bets are off. The poor performance of Congress and the press on the issue of journalists and the CIA may mean that the next time around, the elites will lack even the credibility to stage another co-opting charade of "oversight." That could prove beneficial, particularly if next the time threatens to be as inconsequential and diversionary as the last time.
(snip/)

(Same source)

[0007]

158. Very interesting. Thanks. I remember the pike incident clearly,

like it was yesterday.

CBS took Daniel Schorr off the air after he leaked the Pike committee report. This was most likely a convenient opportunity for William Paley, chairman of CBS, who didn't approve of Schorr's interest in the network's own CIA connection. Former CBS News president Sig Mickelson, who by 1976 was president of Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty, said that in October 1954, Paley called him into his office for a friendly discussion with two CIA officials. Schorr mentioned this on Walter Cronkite's show, and in an op-ed piece for the New York Times (Arthur Hays Sulzberger, the late publisher of the Times, had been cozy with the CIA also). "There are executives and retired executives," Schorr wrote, "who could help dispel the cloud hanging over the press by coming forward to tell the arrangements they made with the CIA."

Today the CIA, which once issued an automatic "no comment" when asked anything by reporters, is playing an adept game of "soft cop, hard cop" public relations. In 1991 an internal CIA task force recommended a more active posture by the public affairs office when responding to requests for assistance (that year they handled 3,369 telephone inquires from reporters, provided 174 unclassified background briefings for them at Headquarters, and arranged 164 interviews with senior Agency officials).<11> The "hard cop" was discovered by Katrina vanden Heuvel, editor of The Nation. In 1995 she was telephoned by Vin Swasey, CIA deputy director of public affairs, who strongly objected to an editorial because it included the names of nine former station chiefs in Guatemala.<12> Reuters was persuaded by Swasey's colleagues to run the story without the names.

Note: On 22nd December, 1974, Seymour Hersh published an article in the New York Times where he claimed that the Central Intelligence Agency had been involved in domestic spying activities. President Gerald Ford responded by asking Nelson Rockefeller to head a commission to investigate CIA activities in the United States.

Congress also reacted to this information and decided to investigate the entire intelligence community. On 27th January, 1975, the US Senate established the Senate Select Committee to Study Government Operations With Respect to Intelligence Activities under the chairmanship of Frank Church.

[Judi Lynn]

177. Thanks for the info. You've given some of us some material to look up for future reference.

Very, very interesting.

Seymour Hersh is amazing. Hope to read a lot more he has done.

[...of J.Temperance]

159. Did you read the ACTUAL link to the Human Watch website?

It's in this thread, it's separate from the wikipedia link, just so you know.

I can't help it if some choose to buy the garbage that Chavez peddles, I can't help it if some choose to keep their blinkers on and keep their heads buried in the sand.

Face it, what Chavez wants to do is NO different to what W's been trying to do and has been doing since 2001, which is crack down on civil liberties and individual rights.

Chavez is turning into George W. Bush II....don't like the truth about Chavez, then tough, that's not my problem.

I'm able to think for myself, I'm able to form my own independent opinions, I don't get my opinions from pro-Chavez websites and pro-Chavez authors....I get my opinions from unbiased sources and I form my opinions after careful consideration.

[0007]

162. Duh!! Give me a fucking break ......

I think you should do a few 'Hail Marys" and read Judi Lynn a few times.

[...of J.Temperance]

167. What you going on about?

"I think you should do a few Hail Mary's"


Are you making a Catholic bashing comment there?


Read Judi Lynn? Lol! I'd rather gnaw one of my own feet off, rather than read that sort of propaganda.

No idea what that cartoon you have there means....I think it's Dan Rather.


Can YOU read? Here, read this, click on it, if you have the guts to:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/10/16/venezu17104.htm

[0007]

168. LOL!! I think you need a break before you snap in two.

[...of J.Temperance]

173. Hey shorty

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/10/16/venezu17104.htm

[LanternWaste]

150. She's about the most well-read poster on DU...

She's about the most well-read poster on DU regarding Venezuela and Chavez. But then again, I really don't have a dog in this hunt, so being objective about the posters and what they post is a bit easier for me on this topic...


Although I do understand your tendency to call her brainwashed and propagandized rather than taking her point by point-- she has a lot of information and more often than not cites it for us, and that's usually easier...

[...of J.Temperance]

160. Yeah she's biased toward Chavez....if that's what you call "well read"

I could read a bunch of stuff about a particular person, written by sympathizers of said person, and form my opinion ONLY based on that stuff....while ignoring ANY criticism of said person.

Would that make me "well read", or would it make it that I was unable to be objective and unbiased?

The answer is the latter.

[plasticsundance]

153. Ah, Judi Lynn kicking your ass with facts again ...

Raining on your biased Chavez threads again. Poor, poor, pitiful you. And what other way to promote democracy then to challenge a fellow DU poster with whom he/she chooses to defend. Wouldn't democracy work so much easier if everyone just shut the fuck up and promote the democratic line of the US in its effort to maintain it hegemony?

Gosh, what ever happened to the good ole days, when the US could promote juntas in South America to terrorize the poor, like during the Reagan years? What about the outrageous IMF loans that Clinton sold Argentina into debt and down the river? Gee, doesn't anyone want to play anymore with Uncle Sam?

[Judi Lynn]

156. According to what DU'er Peace Patriot has posted, that economic catastrophe in Argentina

damned near killed them! Waddling around in the mix, a _Bush family friend, President Carlos Menem, and an international which damned nearly destroyed their water supply, cranking up the cost of water to householders, while producing dark, thick, brown water in their faucets.

It took a strong, courageous leftist President Kirchner, who himself had been tortured earlier in his life, *during the right-wing dictatorship of a junta which was encouraged by Henry Kissinger, to get the job done.

I'll bet Latin American ordinary people would be happy as clams to NEVER see another right-wing a-hole emperor ever again. They are very hard on the population.

You may recall hearing about Vice-President Nixon's triumphal visit to Caracas in 1958. They were on to our Republicans even then!



Nixon got a front-row seat!

*Kissinger approved Argentinian 'dirty war'
Declassified US files expose 1970s backing for junta

Duncan Campbell in Los Angeles
Saturday December 6, 2003
The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1101121,00.html

*ARGENTINE MILITARY BELIEVED U.S. GAVE GO-AHEAD FOR DIRTY WAR

New State Department documents show conflict between Washington and US Embassy in Buenos Aires over signals to the military dictatorship at height of repression in 1976

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB73/index3.htm

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

94. I'm a recovering Catholic . . . objected to the fascism of the Church from day one ---

[xchrom]

81. chavez

:yourock:

[...of J.Temperance]

88. You SUPPORT Chavez detaining citizens WITHOUT CHARGE?

Yes?

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[0007]

141. Chevaz

:yourock:

[LanternWaste]

151. I'm sure you can name a national leader

I'm sure you can name a national leader with whom you support every particular stance he/she takes... no?

[defendandprotect]

89. Organized patriarchal religions support capitalistic concepts --- not commonwealth/national ---

[defendandprotect]

93. As Artistide in Haiti pointed out . . . 'RICH CHURCHES, POOR PEOPLE' . . .

[indievoter]

120. José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch

"This amendment, if approved, would allow President Chávez to invoke a state of emergency to justify suspending certain rights that are untouchable under international law."

For the article and link see post #115 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3038847&mesg_id=3039334

[barb162]

124. Mr. Vivanco is a wise man n/t

[...of J.Temperance]

128. Oddly

Judi Lynn appears to have deliberately avoided reading this....funny that....she's running around like a bluetail fly attempting to defend Chavez....it's pretty shocking actually.

[Matilda]

138. Unless and until he does, he can't be accused of anything wrong.

Bush could do the same, and so could John Howard. Chavez has far more
reason to fear a coup or attack than they do, but it remains to be seen
whether he would ever use it. Besides, it's the people who will decide
if it's to become law - dictators don't wait to ask the people to vote.

[LittleClarkie]

155. Somehow I don't think folks around here would accept that as an answer if it were Bush

"Sure, he could misuse that law, but until he does he can't be accused of anything wrong."

There is a basic mistrust of giving ANY leader too much power. Even ones with the best of intentions can be misled.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that.

[Matilda]

175. I agree with that statement, as I said in an earlier post.

But similar laws which exist in your country and mine were put in place without any reference to
the voting public. Chavez is asking his people to make the call - I wish they would say no to
arrest without charge, but I suspect they probably won't. But it's still less dictatorial than if
he just rushed the law through the parliament. I also hope he won't misuse the power, but we can't
charge him with subverting the law unless he actually does it, however uncomfortable we may feel.
Similarly, although I have no time for either Bush or Howard and their policies, I won't yet call
them dictators. Just arseholes.

[LittleClarkie]

176. Thing is, I'm wondering if the poor love him this much

if they will swallow just about anything from him. I'm seeing quotes from counterprotesters in Caracas saying "Chavez now and always." That's a little frightening. They want him to stay in power forever. But surely someone other than Chavez can do what Chavez does. It would be bad for their country if the improvements lived and died with him.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

125. So the Vatican believes in term limits now?

Oh, that's rich.

[ozone_man]

172. Term limits for the Pope?

Or for God? Let the Vatican lead the way. :)

Something tells me this is not exactly about term limits. Socialism is ultimately the enemy of the church because it demands equity on Earth and not heaven. Belief in heaven perpetuates economic and social inequity. It's a pacifier for adults, while really what we need is a wakeup bell.

[MarkR1717]

129. The Bishops should be sent to re-education camps.

That's what we should do to critics of the revolution.

[LittleClarkie]

148. You forget something?

:sarcasm:?

[...of J.Temperance]

163. Dunno, maybe Il Duce Chavez has got re-education camps planned too

Who knows?