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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 08:46 PM
Original message
Microsoft Live Search Reveals U.S. Submarine Secrets
Source: Information Week

U.S. Navy officials are less than pleased that an image available through Microsoft's Virtual Earth tool clearly shows the propeller on an Ohio class submarine.
September 4, 2007 04:00 PM


Thanks to Microsoft(MSFT), one of our submarines isn't missing. In fact, it's on full public display on the Internet.

U.S. Navy officials are less than pleased that an image available through the Virtual Earth tool on the software maker's Live Search Web site clearly shows the propeller on an Ohio class submarine.

The picture reveals the seven-bladed prop in remarkable detail. The image was apparently captured while the boomer was in dry dock at the Navy's base in Bangor, Wash.

The photo was first posted on a blog called MonsterMaritime.com.

Submarine propulsion systems are made to be as silent as possible and as a result their design is one of the Navy's most closely guarded secrets.



Read more: http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=201804001
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, can we say BAD SECURITY?
I'm quite impressed.
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. wow, and it's still up!
I've always wondered what they truly looked like.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. Seize Microsoft's assets! Deport Bill Gates!
Or hide your damn submarines from satellites, U.S. Navy.
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Crayson Donating Member (463 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
30. from COMMERCIAL satellites that is...

... welcome to the REAL world, Neo!
Some people (often specially the military) seem to be stuck back in WWII mentally.

Hello?? Century of Information Technology, anybody?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Looks like a cheap floor fan.
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. wtmusic

Dont you belive that the Russian alleready have the innformation from the OHIO class submarines they need..? Mutch the same for the LA class submarines if I dont recol it wrong... Off course they cant hunt the Ohio class down, they are virutally a black hole in the sea.. But I guess the russian have working on their props since the cold war.. And the next generation of attack submarines wil be a difcult thing to hunt down, even for americans.. If they dont do as they was doing on the Alpha submarines. A excelent submarine, but with a BIG NOUSY REACTOR..(dont rembember the actual name of the type, but use the Vest code name It must be a expensive thing, becouse it was build of titanium...) Its probley great for the russians to steadfast what they probley already know, but this is not exactly a bombshell. Even I have a book, where the american LA class and the OHIO Class submarines is market in some detail.. Off course they dont have the nuclear reactor on display in this book, but they was verry clever to paint down what type of propell it uses...

And for the record. The brits have a mutch better propsystem on their submarines.. They maybe have to do, becouse the submarine fleet is that mutch smaller in sieze...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language

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razzleberry Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. painted wood would tend to like like a cheap fan
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
21. Be it aint cheap by any definition of the term
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BattyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. Cool picture
B-)

Didn't they ever consider the possibility of satellite photographs when they docked the thing? :eyes:
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Matteon Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Department of city plann-
ing
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. Meanwhile, Microsoft continues to help China...
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2007-08/07/content_6485481.htm

Wow. If Americans pirated as badly, do you think we'd get a 50% price break for Vista? :shrug:

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Vista Sucks, Anyway. n/t
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. Why would anybody WANT Vista?
Pirated or otherwise? :shrug:
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. So, where are the Russian and Chinese docks ?
Inquiring minds want to know
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Ancient Chinese Secret.
:)
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. Um, didn't some Japanese company sell that secret years ago?
I heard something to that effect.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. yes ->Toshiba
In 1987, the company was accused of illegally selling CNC milling machines used to produce very quiet submarine propellers to the Soviet Union in violation of the CoCom agreement, an international embargo on Western exports to East Bloc countries. The Toshiba-Kongsberg scandal involved a subsidiary of Toshiba and the Norwegian company Kongsberg Vaapenfabrikk. The incident strained relations between the United States and Japan, and resulted in the arrest and prosecution of two senior executives, as well as the imposition of sanctions on the company by both countries. The US had always relied on the fact that the Soviets had noisy boats, so technology that would make the USSR's submarines harder to detect created a significant threat to America's security. Senator John Heinz, former husband of Teresa Heinz-Kerry, said "What Toshiba and Kongsberg did was ransom the security of the United States for $517 million."

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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. Yeah, that's exactly what I thought I'd heard, thank you.
So I am wondering just who these secrets are being kept from. Iran? With its three diesel-electric subs? China? What, they never stole the secrets from the Russians?

Not that I'm saying there isn't a legitimate answer but, it seems more of a matter of principle than actual harm. If so, that would be good.
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Socal31 Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. Nothing that the Chinese and Rooskies didnt
already have thier hands on......
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iaviate1 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. As if the Russians don't have their own satellites...
Shame on the Navy for leaving it uncovered. The government just wants to hide things from the American people and controlling what we see is just part of it. Now Companies will be more careful about what they show after they make a big deal about this.
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A HERETIC I AM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-04-07 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
17. Twenty dollars worth of black tarpaulin would have taken care of that...
Why are they pissed at Microsoft? They should be pissed at the manager of that facility for not doing his job, be he a Navy man or a contractor.
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. I've been concerned about such images for a long time.
You can see where the most foot traffic is in urban areas by looking at the shade of the sidewalk. You can find the best escape routes, the closest gates to the nerve gas bunkers by firing up Terraserve or Google Earth.

Sure other countries have their sources, but smaller groups like al Qaeda can learn a lot from satellite images they see on the internet.

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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
19. Well, nobody could have IMAGINED that satellites could take pictures
Shame on Microsoft for inadvertently using widely available satellite images.

Why, that's like stuffing the actual propeller down your pants and walking out with it.
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Sirveri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
20. Blame the idiots in the shipyard for this one.
When you go into the yards they ALWAYS cover the screw. They also cover the sail.

But this isn't new technology, the new boats have interesting other things going on with their screw that makes them faster and quieter. I also heard a rumor that the patent on the 688 screw lapsed and Mitsubishi sold it to the russians. Doesn't matter, everyone is so quiet now a days that nobody can find anyone else with the current levels of technology. Excluding maybe a couple really old Chinese boats made in the sixties.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. The big Problem is are these Subs tactically obsolete?
Lets look at the last set of wars fought by the US since ethe fall of the Soviet Union. How many times have the US naval superiority been challenged? (Answer NONE). Has an enemy the US was fighting ben able to launch an Naval attack (The answer is NO). Maybe in 20 years the Chinese may be able to challenge US naval Superiority, but that is NOT the case now and for at least the next ten years. While research should be kept up, but why build these Subs? They are to large to be used with the Gator Navy (Through you can launch Cruise missiles from them, but you can launch Cruse missiles from converted oil tankers also). You do NOT operate these subs near the shoreline (Though you may operate them near Coral reefs, a big fear during the 1980s). THese are large vessels, which do to their speed and silence can disappear in the deep ocean, but the US has NOT HAD A PROBLEM WITH DEEP OCEAN NAVAL ACTION SINCE THE COLLAPSE OF THE SOVIET UNION. Can the US use these subs? Diesels are much smaller and quieter (The electric engines are way quieter than Nuclear engines of Nuclear subs, through the Diesels are much nosier). In the Persian Gulf, given its shadow depth and long length, would be a death trap for a Nuclear Submarine (As the Gulf has been for Carriers, thus the Carriers stay in the Arabian Sea not the Persona Gulf except for brief time periods).

My point is that since the Collapse of the Soviet Union, these subs are like the old Indian war forts, kept up to fight an war that will never come back. Everything the Subs can do, other ships can do cheaper and with the prospect of surviving as long given that no one hostile to the US has an effective Navy (The Russian Navy has never recovered from the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the Chinese Navy is still incapable of even taking Taiwan let alone take on the US Navy). It would be better if the US STOP maintaining and building these subs and build ships that can be used by the Gator Navy, for the Gator Navy is what has seen the most naval action since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

What are these subs design to defend against? Soviet Subs that no longer floats (and what do survive are a mere shadow of their Cold war threat). The Chinese have further problems, the coast of China is a shadow sea surrounded by islands (Japan, Taiwan, the Philippines etc), again NOT an area of deep oceans where a large sub can disappear in the depths of the ocean (But where you can contain the Chinese navy by Air patrols from the above mentioned islands). Thus the seas off China is like the Persian Gulf, a place where large Subs are out of place, but where any action will occur in the next 20 years. As of right now who cares if a Russian sub is off the Coast of the US. How much damage can it do? Yes it could launch a Nuclear strike, but you can do that from a container ship (If that is your plan). The issue is the control of the Atlantic, and right now the Russian Subs are NOT capable of challenging US naval superiority, and will take at least 20 years to be in a position to challenge the US Navy. The same with the Chinese, it would take the Chinese 20 years to build a fleet to challenge the US Navy (And while they are signs both are improving their military, these signs do NOT reach to the level that the US fears losing naval superiority to them, even off the coast of both countries).

My point is simple, this is NOT that big a deal and the Russians may want a copy for their records but they know any showdown with the US will be off the Coasts NOT the Deep Ocean where these Subs excel. Even during the Cold War the Soviet Union maintained a very effective off-coast diesel submarine fleet for use in the Seas off the Soviet Coasts. This same type of warfare is what the US has engaged in since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The Russians have sold at least one of the latest Diesel Subs in Iran for use in the Gulf (Where its much smaller size and quieter engines gives its advantages over US Nuclear subs). I have to be one of these people who believes building nuclear attack subs and missiles subs should be stopped, for they are design for a war that will NOT occur (The Red Navy is rusting away NOT sailing down to stop US convoys to Europe). What is needed is more money on the Gator Navy, even if that means less spending elsewhere, including the Nuclear submarines. This means more spending on surface vessels to support soldiers on shore, these means more spending to fight to secure the seas off the coast. i.e. More patrol boats, more marines, more ships to shore capabilities and less spending on a war that will never happen.

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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Good points. As to the larger question of subs being obsolete...
Well... ...let me put it this way, they're still potentially useful, and they are, like the F-22 and such aircraft, a heavy advantage against nations without such gear, but precisely because the gap is so large, and therefore, no one wants to try symmetrical warfare with the US against its strengths, there is a massive amount of waste. Truly breathtaking waste.

Battleships still had uses long after they were "obsolete" so, even if these subs are obsolete - and I'm not saying they are or aren't, both sides have respectable arguments - they are probably useful.

Also, it's important to note that no sub is ever going to get sunk by a Silkworm missile. Ships may be able to get away with a lot against poor countries too but, no one's seriously put Iran to the test, for example. One day another ship may go down from the Exocet's spiritual descendants. Navies have been putting that prospect off for as long as possible but, they may not manage it forever. (And this is super nitpicking in context but, subs are called boats, so "other ships" implies subs are ships, which they are not, in US Navy terminology anyway, FYI.) Anyway, you're right about the rusting away part - and the US is fighting rust by overpaying for everything on a vast scale. Pyrric victories.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. My comment as subs being "Obsolete" reflected they uselessness in any potential future war.
The US had the best Horse mounted calvary in the world just prior to WWII. Calvary was used extensively during WWII by the Russians and Germans (Mostly in Russia). The Chinese used Calvary in the Chinese CiviL war and when they intervened into Korea. Rhodesia used horse mounted Calvary against the Guerrillas in the 1970s and 1980s.

While Calvary was used extensively during WWII and after WWII, the US only fielded one horse mounted Regiment (The 26th Calvary "Philippine Scouts" during the defense of the Philippines starting December 7th, 1941). One of that regiments first assignments was to slow down TWO Japanese TANK regiments. The 26th did this without the use of any anti-tank weapons (Through the Japanese Tanks were NOT up to German level of tanks, so it was more horses getting the troops to the battlefield, the troops doing what they could and then using the horses to get away when the fight was over).

As to why the US did not field horse mounted calvary units during WWII was simple, a Calvary Division took up as much shipping space as a Tank Regiment (The horses had to be feed as they were shipped, and manure removed AND the crew to feed and clean the stalls all added to space needed by the horses). Furthermore Europe has NOT been Calvary terrain since at least Napoleon and probably since the 30 years war, to many towns, to many fences, to many rivers. On the other hand, Poland eastward had huge flat terrain, few fences, plenty of feed, very few roads, calvary terrain. Even the Russians accepted this difference, as the Eastern Front crossed into Germany, the Red Army shifted its calvary units to ares next to Manchuria or Persia (The Russian attack on the Japanese Forces in Manchuria was combined forces of Tanks and horse mounted Calvary).

I went into the above to show that something may NOT be Completely obsolete, but for one side it is tactically obsolete in that the area where the combat will occur it would be better to have another weapon. In the case of Western Europe, Calvary had been marginal since Napoleon. The French and Germans did calvary charges during the Franco-Prussian War of 1871, but all the charges did was re-enforce that such charges were rarely effective (The US had used Calvary during the US Civil War, but the US had adopted Russian Calvary Concepts i.e. the horse was just a means to get the soldier to the battlefield, once in battle the Soldier was expected to dismount and fight). This was US Calvary tactics till the day the Calvary was abolished in 1951.

The reasons the US did not use Horse Mounted Calvary during WWII, were as follows:

1. the difficulty of getting the Horses to Europe.

2. The limited area horses could operate in Europe, given the numerous towns and cities, fences, roads and Rivers which restricted where horses could go.

3. No real plans to fight further than Germany in any fight in Europe.

When Horse Mounted were used effectively the following was the rule:

1. Roads did not exist, fences were rare, but distances were great (Poland to Moscow, Rhodesia in the 1970s and even Army Mules in the 1980s in Afghanistan, in fact horses mounted native troops were used in Afghanistan for the same reason Horses Mounted Calvary units worked in Russia during WWII, no roads, huge distances and few natural barriers).

What has this to do with Subs? Simple, Calvary was viewed as "Obsolete" during WWII, yet it was still used. Horse mounted troops are used to this day in terrain where horses are the best way to get around. In the area where the US was planning to Fight, horses were NOT worth bringing. These were NOT Calvary terrain. Calvary was "Obsolete" NOT because it was ineffective, but in the are the US was going to fight, its value was much less than elsewhere. The same with the Nuclear subs, extremely useful in the Deep ocean, but any fight the US will get into in the next 20 years will be coastal. In Coastal areas the Nuclear subs loose to many of its advantages, its speed (The coast restricts how fast it can go let it ht something the Subs does NOT want to), its ability to dive (The coast is shadow compared to the Deep Ocean) and its ability to stay under water for months (The shadow sea means it will be detected by surface ships just by the water its displace as its cruses by an area). Just like the Calvary could be of some use in Western Europe (Mules were used extensively in Italy do to the fighting in the mountains as the Allies fought up the boot of Italy), Nuclear subs are out of their area of combat. The Nuclear subs could provide some value and use (Just like the Calvary did some use during WWI and in the early days of WWII in Western Europe, but as a whole Tanks were a Better weapon during WWI and WWII), but as a whole it would be better to have different weapons then a Nuclear Submarine in coastal fighting.

My reference to "obsolete" is to point out the areas where the US expect to fight over the next 20 years, are areas where Nuclear subs are NOT the best weapon to use. We should look into moving resources from Nuclear Submarines to Technologies more suitable to fighting in Iran and Afghanistan (And in Afghanistan it might mean bringing back the Horse Mounted Calvary given the terrain and lack of roads, just because something is Tactically Obsolete does not mean it will always stay that way. For example Western European Calvary units phased out the Lance in the late 1600s as Obsolete, but Napoleon brought it back after 1800, for the Situation in Europe had changed and the lance was viewed as again having value (In 1912 the US Calvary actually advocated getting rid of the Saber and retaining the Lance as a more effective weapon, horse mounted messengers on both sides during WWII used the Lance for protection not the Saber, but Radios and Motorcycles made even that use obsolete again).

My point is just because something is obsolete does NOT mean that is permanent. Your comment about the Battleships is correct. The US got rid of most of its Battleships after WWII, for they was nothing for them to fight, the Russians had very few naval ships at that time. The last two classes of Battleships ended up as museums, but the last class, the Iowa came back in two forms. The first was as a ship to Shore bombardment vessel during Vietnam (The New Jersey). The New Jersey's 16 inch guns had a range of over 20 miles. During Desert Storm one Battleship was sent right into Iraqi Naval base just to blast it with its guns. It had the Armor to protect it from anything that could be launched against it, and the guns to do more damage than any other Conventional weapon. While this attack was an example of its Second life, it was done after the battleships had its third life, this time as a heavily armored Cruise missile launcher. These battleships after their upgrade had the ability to hit targets at over 300 miles away (via Cruse Missiles), its gun's range was also increase (using improve Shells) but to no more than 30 miles. Unlike a Sub, who is NOT able to detect what is going on ABOVE the ocean levels or on shore (While diving and operating alone) a surface vessel can do both. Thus the Battleships were viewed as almost as effective as a Carrier (and given the Battleships better Armor Protection a better weapon if near the coast).

Technology changes, and sometime what was obsolete 50 years ago, is the best weapon today. The latest example of this is the recent stories that the US Army is having to solve a problem of a Shortage of M14 Rifles, the Rifle replaced by the M16 in 1964. In Iraq you have a lot of times where you need the longer range and greater penetration power of the M14 and where the greater overall firepower of the M16 is not needed. In many units M14 are being issued one per Squad, to give the Squad longer range fire power if needed, but no M14s have been made since 1964, and since the M14 was only adopted in 1957 you had very few made compared to the M16 (and the Factory that made M14 was closed in the mid-1960s as the US Government decided to drop making its own Rifles, which it had done since Washington's Administration). The M14 was "Obsolete" in 1964, but back in favor again. Like my comments about the Calvary, different terrain, means a differer mix of weapons are needed. The Nuclear Subs may come back if the Chinese and/or Russian build up their military strength, but right now the main enemy facing the US are the Taliban and Bin Laden (and people who think like them from a tactical point of view). This is the enemy we must fight, and we have to concentrate on the weapons needed in that fight. To a degree we have to worry about Future wars, but lets keep the view to what will be in the mix in the next 20 years and fight those fights first. This may mean bring back old technology (Horses and the M14 for example) as while as new technology (the drones for example).

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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
22. Gee wiz. Couldn't any other satellite have done the same thing?
You know, like some other country that was looking for that information?

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
28. Well look at that -- Paris Hilton wasn't wearing any!
:P
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Omaha Steve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-05-07 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
29. Good to see U posting again

I know I missed you.

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Nice to See You, Steve.
I missed you, as well. :)
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
31. Old technology. The newer subs use pump-jet type propulsors, not propellers...
as they are much quieter. The current propulsor designs for the Seawolf and Virginia class date back to the early '90s.


Profile of Virginia class (note propulsor instead of propeller)

The Russians and Chinese know how to design quiet props; the difficulty is in actually casting and machining them perfectly enough to realize that idealized quiet shape. The Russians have pretty much gotten the manufacturing down, the Chinese not so much.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-06-07 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
33. at least Chekov won't have a hard time finding his "nuclear wessels" now

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