Archbishop of Canterbury Williams: Church appears 'obsessed with sex'

[Doondoo]

The Anglican Church appears to the outside world and to many of its own members, to be "obsessed with sex", the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, admitted to the General Synod yesterday.

But the Archbishop argued that its bitter and prolonged dispute over homosexuality touched deeper issues, such as the way the worldwide Communion dealt with profound differences, which could not be easily avoided.

It was "folly" to think a split in the Church over gays would leave a "neat and morally satisfying break" between liberals and conservatives.

.......

Dr Williams said few in the Church would have chosen to become embroiled in a damaging conflict, but there was little option now but to try to remain united.

"The public perception, as we've been reminded by commentators, is that we are a Church obsessed with sex. The responses I received to my letter to primates suggests that this is what many within the Church feel as well — and I'd be surprised if many in this chamber did not echo that.

"It feels as though we are caught in a battle very few really want to be fighting — like soldiers in the trenches somewhere around 1916, trying to remember just what were the decisions that got everyone to a point where hardly anyone was owning the conflict, just enduring it."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/27/nchurch27.xml

[JerseygirlCT]

1. Make that "scared" instead of obsessed, and you have a

handle on the active homophobes in Africa and S. America fomenting this entire situation.

This isn't something Williams can tap-dance his way out of with his mighty intellect. It's time to stop trying, and start examining his heart. The question is simple: do we reject the inclusion of all God's people in the church based on one particular (faulty) interpretation of scripture? Do we reject the message of Christ? Do we follow the letter (literally) or the spirit of the law?

He's playing a good Neville Chamberlain here. Time to develop a conscience and a backbone and tell the bigots they are free to leave if they cannot stand for others not to share their bigotry.

[Prophet 451]

4. Williams is pro-gay-rights

He's personally blessed same-sex unions and tried to ordain a gay bishop (the prospective bishop backed out when a row erupted so Williams promptly made him Dean of St. Albans instead).

I think Neville Chamberlain is an unfair comparison. Chamberlaine essentially gave Hitler exactly what he wanted while Williams is trying to get the hompphobes to see reason. Granted, even he (I'm not Christian but I like Williams a lot) may not be able to do that but you can't blame him for trying.

[JerseygirlCT]

5. He WAS. Then he twisted the arm of his (gay but celibate) friend in order to get him

to step down rather than be appointed as bishop.

Since becoming ABC, he has been shifting rather ominously toward the right. This may be a case of naivite and the squeaky (whiney) wheel getting the grease, as TEC have continued to attempt to find a way to make this work, while the bigots have consistently refused to even listen.

I don't blame him for trying. I DO blame him for being weak. He needs to stand up for the GLBT in the Communion. He needs to stop equivocating and speak clearly: they are, and will continue to be, full members of our church. They will be fully included in the life of the church. Scripture is unclear on the issue, and so, following our tradition, we will support the discernment of each church on the issue.

Have you been reading his latest statements? Chilling, really. More coddling -- even agreement -- with the likes of Akinola. Such a sorry shame.

[Prophet 451]

7. It was my understanding...

...that the (almost-) bishop in question backed out rather than be at the centre of such an ecclesiastical row.

It seems to be that Williams is guilty mostly of naivete here. Perhaps it's just his nature to try and see the best in everyone but he's trying to reason with people who have long since left reason behind. If he's the man I think he is, he will eventually give up and say "the hell with you, go ahead and split" but I agree that it's uncomfortable watching him endlessly trying. The less kindly natured person (such as myself) has to wonder why he even bothers.

[JerseygirlCT]

8. Well yes. I think he's sincere, but I think he's very sadly

mistaken.

His problem is that he's working from a premise that both sides are operating in good faith (no pun intended) and just disagree.

That's most emphatically not the case. One side has been operating in good faith -- to the extent of sacrificing the inclusion of their GLBT members to some extent, by asking them to wait, and wait and wait for justice. The other side has no good faith whatsoever. I don't believe them to be in the least sincere. I wish I was wrong, but I fear I'm not.

I think this is partly continental pay-back, partly tribal taboos and fears, and a good measure of ego run amuck. If I'm correct, as we speak the Nigerian senate and house are voting on a bill that would put gays and lesbians in jail. This bill is heartily supported by Akinola. Such Christian charity there.

[SharonAnn]

9. I think you're right. One side has no good faith whatsoever.

[kwassa]

17. Rowan Williams is a failure in leadership

He has shown none in this entire crisis, and caved in entirely to Peter Akinola and the other homophobic primates from Africa. It is extremely disapppointing and unhelpful

Spineless.

[DeepModem Mom]

13. That is a powerful post, and I agree with every word.

I'm extremely disappointed with Williams' lack of of moral leadershiop. There is no Episcopal church in my area I can go to in good conscience because of diocese policy on all of this. I want my Church back, even with its size and/or wealth diminished.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. The Anglican Church is obsessed with sex...

because Howard Ahmenson and Paul Weyrich are paying for that obsession. They are the money men behind all this, with a little Dickey Scaife for the office supplies.

[JerseygirlCT]

6. Absolutely. They've played into the desires of

power-hungry bigots brilliantly.

No one should be fooled into thinking this has anything to do with sincere differences of theology. This is about raw power and money.

[SharonAnn]

10. They're a lot like the Catholic Church, obsessed with sex.

[Joe Bacon]

21. Howard Ahmanson is bankrolling the conservatives

That narrow minded bigot has poured millions into the anti-Gay side of this fight. He is on record that he wants EVERY mainline protestant denomination weakened so he and his ASSembly of Gawd assholes can move in and pick up the pieces.

[JerseygirlCT]

22. Yes. I'll bett there's plenty of money falling into Peter Akinola's

hands (personally) too.

If he really thinks Episcopalians are going to move to his fundie church in any significant numbers, he's as crazy as he is evil.

[muntrv]

3. Actually, it's the ignorant bishops that are obsessed with sex.

[olddad56]

11. maybe they just need to get married. That has a way of ending obsessions with sex.

[Slyder]

12. My former parish has left the Episcopal Church over this

and what I don't understand is why they put so much emphasis on Leviticus (on homosexuality) and so little on Mark 10:11-12 where Jesus says the divorce and remarriage is adultery. Adultery is as much a sexual perversion as homosexuality, according to the Bible. And what about the seven places in the OT and NT that call loaning money at interest a sin? If you look at the law and do not think of grace, going to heaven is going to be lonely!

Unfortunately, morality has been reduced to sex. You can divorce your wife while she is hospitalized with cancer and then re-marry immediately in this supposedly traditional new-fangled Anglican Church, thus committing a sin in the eyes of the Ten Commandments and Jesus' word, but you cannot have a relationship with a man. You can lie and cheat your neighbor and in big CEOs, but I cannot love another man! And there is a lot of ego in the leaders of these break-away churches and dioceses.

[customerserviceguy]

15. Pick and choose

pick and choose, pick and choose. That's all religion is about: What parts of the "holy" books do we follow, and which ones do we throw out? That's how you get 20,000 flavors of Christianity.

As an atheist, I sit by and smile, watching the churches of the Western world disintegrate within my lifetime.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. There are far more warnings about pride than the couple

of Paul's letters, which are *interpreted* as condemnations of homosexuality (I disagree with the interpretation).

But as you say, when you're invested in finding someone to be the "them", so you can be the "us", GLBT seem a handy target.

It's not about tradition or scripture, or what God wants of us. It's about power and belonging. It's less easy to pick on a group for their race, and even to some extent, their gender. Sexual orientation still seems to be up for grabs these days. I'm confident that will change -- eventually.

[xchrom]

14. rowan -- you're wrong.

this is JUST AS MUCH ABOUT WOMEN ORDAINED!

if you succeed in getting the american episcopal church to hold together over gays and lesbians ordained -- then you will bolster the attacks on ordained women.

that issue NEVER went away with conservatives.

the african bishops could have been just as upset about the ordination of a woman presiding bishop as a gay bishop in new hampshire.

what you win is a church TRAPPED in the same conversation as it has been.

liberal/progressive episcopalians aren't going away -- and they want to create a church that reflects them -- and since the body of christ is the people -- then you need to let them.

that is the correct pastoral way.

not it won't be clean -- but it will allow both sections of the church to move beyond the ''issue''{I think conservatives merely find this convenient} of gays and lesbians and WOMEN{It's not just about homosexuality} and focus on the work that needs to be done for the poor.

the church will survive the split, period.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. So true! Like all extortionists, the demands about gay

church members are only the start for them.

Next, it will be the women. Then they'll move to erase any independence of churches in the Communion.

I'm not sure that there's really anything to satisfy them. It's more about the power of toying with us than about outcomes, I think.

[Crayson]

16. Preaching about something they have no idea of...

I don't tell a pilot how to fly a plane.
I don't tell the bus driver how to drive.
Why do people who have no sex life preach about sex?
Why not a prostitute? THAT would be interesting, she probably would know about all the different nuances.


German saying:
"if you don't have the sligthest clue about something, why not just shut your mouth?"

[JerseygirlCT]

20. There's nothing to say that they don't have sex lives.

This is the Anglican Communion, not the Roman Catholic Church. Different churches. Priests may indeed be married in the AC.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. Seeing as my grandfather was an Anglican vicar

they have plenty of first hand knowledge about sex.