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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:20 PM
Original message
Milton Friedman has passed
CNBC reports...still looking for confirmation.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Quick get the Mallet and THE WOODEN STAKE
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demnan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. I'm with you on that one!
Old Republican vampires need to be drilled through the heart with a stake!
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #38
87. I generally agree except for one thing...
He actually did discover several things that proved to be extremely powerful and true and have saved our asses on more than one occassion.

His understanding that growth in the economy depended on adequate money supply supplied by a central bank (he did believe central banks and laws concerning money flows were necessary)saved our bacon on several occasions and has been a discovery that has contributed to recessions that are much less severe than in the old days.

For example, he showed that if productivity is growing by 4% per year you must have at least 4% growth in the money supply over a several year period or you WILL have a recession. It is a powerful finding and it is why he won the Nobel Prize in economics.

But yeah, generally I could leave his theories in the dumpster and be quite happy.
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ripple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. One other thing he did
was propose ending the draft. Most of his other stuff was far too free market victorian for my tastes, but he got that one right, at least.
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DuaneBidoux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #91
104. You sense a lot of Ayn Rand in his work.
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arewenotdemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. lol
sign me up
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. milton
Who is Milton Freeman?????
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The guy who played Red in the Shawshank Redemption....
wait, wrong "Freeman"....
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. the economist the wing nuts love to align themselves with.
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
49. Oh geez, I almost forgot. Thanks!
The original up-is-down'er.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. Now hell will have a new ruler until Norquist follows
'Scuse me for speaking ill of the dead, but that man's rich man's economics did 95% of us serious damage. He gave thieves permission to rob us of our pay, of our right to organize, and of our futures when we're too old to work.

He gave them permission to rob us of our hope.

It's a real pity his vicious philosophy of economics won't die with him.

Let that be his eulogy.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Friedman's monetarism ignores the black market/globalization
A much better 'take' is R.T. Naylor's book Hot Money and The Politics of Debt with this quote:

page 332

"Whatever the total of capital flight from developing countries, it is sufficient to make nonsense of conventional financial statistics, and therefore of the economic-policy prescriptions based on them."

Friedman's nonsense was entirely based on those errant statistics.
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. Well said, Warpy.
:applause: :applause: :applause:
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
61. Shakespeare Said It Best

I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones.
William Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar", Act 3 scene 2


Friedman's evil will live far too long.
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PDittie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
5. K & R for the hilarity
of the comments above. Now come clean the potato chip spew off my monitor.
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Bassic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. Can't say that makes me sad. nt
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Does this mean he is dead?
Or are we talking about some intestinal function here?
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. "passed" is gobbledeygook speeak for "dead" and/or "died" nt
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
41. He has passed "GO" and gets to collect $200 from the bank.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
9. Here's a send-off to the monetarist peeg from one of the greats -


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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Oh, I LOVE Johnny Cash!
Thanks for posting that!
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. The Working Man's musician.
Friedman - Definitely NOT the working man's economist.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Excellent!!
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
39. That pic
always makes me smile.....and so does your handel, thanks Hugh.
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Anakin Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
65. Yeah! There You Go! LOL
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Eugene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
14. MSNBC: Nobel-winner Milton Friedman dead at 94
Nobel-winner Milton Friedman dead at 94
Economist was among the most influential in recent history
MSNBC News Services

Updated: 9 minutes ago

The Wall Street Journal, citing a source at the Cato Institute in Washington,
said Nobel Prize-winning economist Milton Friedman died last night. He was 94

We will update this story shortly.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15750712
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. "citing a source at the Cato Institute in Washington"
Oh GOD, I bet they're flying their flags at half mast.

"Our . . . DEITY! (sob)"

Pigs in a blanket, those bastards are.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Only the good die young.
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Not true. J.K. Galbraith lived to 98.
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merci_me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. When did Galbraith die?
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 12:58 PM by merci_me
I just read an interview with him in Vanity Fair a few months ago.

on edit: never mind. I just googled and see he passed away April 26.
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. John Kenneth Galbraith died in April.
Perhaps you're thinking of his son, James K. Galbraith, who is also an economist.
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merci_me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. No I was thinking of John Kenneth
but so surprised, because of having recently read the interview. In fact, to be honest, when I saw the interview in VF I was surprised to learn he was still alive.

I did have the opportunity to work with Jamie Galbraith back in 1972, during the McGovern campaign.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Generally true, except for centenarrians Eubie Blake and George Burns.
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Fenris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
15. Here's to a man who thought urban sanitation was an infringement on personal freedom.
Good riddance to bad rubbish.
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
19. If this is true, people in South America will be celebrating. . .
Chile, in particular.

:evilgrin:
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
20. Wasn't he Mr. "Trickle Down" theory? nt
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
23. In an ironic twist-I am actually eating a free lunch
Wow and the Republicans thought they were all ready having a bad week
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
26. And perhaps the era of neo laisse-faire kleptocracy
that he was the intellectual father of, will pass with him.


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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
99. Leo Strauss, the other Chicago School of Self-Delusion icon.....
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
27. RIP
He was wrong about most things, but that is no reason to speak ill of the dead.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Oh I disagree.
The passing of an historical figure is exactly the right time to examine and evaluate the meaning of his life.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Then feel free to critique his economic and political theories
We are all morally ambiguous and complex. There was more to Friedman than monetarism.

Friedman was principally a libertarian. He was for the decriminalization of marijuana.


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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
51. I did. He provided the intellectual rationalization for
the global kleptocracy. His advocacy of libertarian social positions such as legalization of pot were hardly the focus of his life work. Hitler loved dogs, so what?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. OK, I don't think we have a big argument
I think you use of the word kleptocracy is loaded, but I join in hoping his main ideas are swept aside.

My admonishion is more directed at a post dipicting Johnny Cash flipping the bird as a "send off". Dr. Friedman can no longer defend himself and Mr. Cash can no longer tell us whether he would approve of his image being used to defame one so recently departed.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. Really? Then why don't you address me on it rather than sidestep confrontation?
Milton Friedman's theories and influence bred an ugly precedent of laissez-faire economics that served as justification for the "haves" and the "have mores" to re-write business with a War and Peace-sized tome of loopholes, breaks and advantages that place them further and further away, socially and fiscally, from the "have-nots". It's the reason workers are now seen as a disposable liability rather than your company's most valuable asset. It's the reason that people like Michael Milken, Ivan Boesky, Chuck Keating, The Bushes and Cheneys of the world, Larry Elison, Carly Fiorina and Chainsaw Al Dunlap were/are the shitbags earning the fury of the millions of people they screwed over while running business affairs. It's the reason American CEOs make 400 times more than their average worker. No surprise that his son advocates anarcho-capitalism.

And as silly as this all is, I'm quite positive Johnny wouldn't care one way or the other.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. You're not the only offender
Just the most graphic.

First of all, you name a few corporate criminals (Milkin, Boesky, Keating). Did Friedman approve of their misdeeds? Unless you can show some specific example in Friedman's writing where he expresses approval of those individuals or of a large corporation stealing from its customers like that, I'll just assume he felt the same way about that I did. It doesn't take a Marxist revolutionary to find fault with fraud and embezzlement. As for Carly Fiorina and Chainsaw Al, I find them as revolting as you do.

I agree that Friedman's laissez-faire ideas contributed to much of what is wrong with the American economy and what has been wrong with since the seventies, when many of his ideas became the vogue for a succession of Republican presidents starting with Nixon. Not all of these Republican presidents followed Friedman's ideas to the letter. Friedman was no fan of taxes, but that is largely because he was no big fan of government spending. The red ink produced by Reagan and both Bush administrations were not consistent with his ideas.

As a libertarian, Friedman counseled President Nixon for the abolition of the draft in the 1970s.

There is one small matter in my memory of Dr. Friedman as a public personality which I would consider praiseworthy. He hosted a series on PBS in the eighties to air his views on modern economics. At the conclusion of each program, Friedman would discuss the issue raised on that evening's segment with a number of guests, some of whom had views 180 degrees off of his. The discussions were open and freewheeling. He always gave that who challenged his ideas a stoic respect. Perhaps Friedman didn't believe in democracy as I envision it, but that is the way I envision it working.
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #62
76. Read Much Management Theory Lately?
"It's the reason workers are now seen as a disposable liability rather than your company's most valuable asset."

While that is certainly true in some instances, usually in low-skilled entry level positions, most companies realize that their success depends on recruiting and retaining quality employees. In order to do this, they know they have to treat them as more than "a disposable liability". Undoubtedly there remain some executives who think of workers as disposable and unimportant, but a larger number of them view talented employees as an asset. Hence the reason "Personnel" departments morphed into "Human Resources" departments.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #76
82. Could have fooled me.
The modern manager/owner seems to exist on one premise only - please your major shareholders FIRST, grab what you can as a result. Workers? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFt. If companies cared so much about their employees, then how come pension plans are being looted and/or done away with? How come employees are pretty much left to fend for themselves on retirement planning and even in some cases health care? Why is it that CEOs receive 21 million dollar severance packages even if they underperform? Why is it that auto-makers use the workers as disposeable commodities and blame/punish them for their screw-ups via mass layoffs rather than question their own short-sightedness when it comes to getting continually bulldozed by the Asians? Why does job offshoring/inshoring continue unabated and under-reported even though there are hundreds of thousands of engineers at our disposal on our own shores? Why isn't our economy, supposedly the strongest in the world, capable of employing everyone at a living wage regardless of intelligence or whether they have at least an MBA?
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #82
98. You are correct, though not entirely
There are managers and owners whose only concern is the bottom line, but there are also many who treat their employees in a fair manner. Pension plans are being replaced by 401k plans at a rapid rate, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Pension plans have no mobility, but a worker can take a 401k plan with them should they lose their job or decide to quit. In order for a pension plan to be worth it to an employee, the employee must work for the same employer for 25-30 years, which almost never happens in this day and age. Pension plans also indirectly restrict a worker's right to choose a different job. If you've put in 18 years at a company, you're more apt to not want to leave even if working conditions start to sour, simply because you don't want to lose your pension. Additionally, pension plans are often one of the first casualties of a company in financial trouble, whereas money in a 401k account can't be touched by an employer because the account is in the employee's name.

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saskatoon Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. speak ill of the dead
Why in hell not. If he was a bastard when alive, he's still a bastard--though a dead one.
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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. True dat!
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PietVA Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #52
95. Speak of the Dead - They don't care
Remember, they're DEAD, beyond knowing.

"Fear no more the heat o' the sun, nor the winter's furious rages,
Thou thy worldly task hast done, home art gone and ta'en thy wages...

Fear no more the frown of the great, thou art past the tyrants stroke,
Care no more to clothe and eat, to thee the reed is as the oak...

...and come to dust." -Shakespeare

What sane person could possibly care about such compost?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
55. Uh, actually, that's an excellent reason.
God forbid young people who don't know what he did mistakenly believe he was worthy of respect.

Would you also like me to speak kindly of Ted Bundy? Himmler?
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
70. I don't think Friedman compares to Ted Bundy or Heinrich Himmler
Friedman was an academic, not a mass muderer or even a psychotic. He devoted his life to developing a systematic study of economics and publicizing his ideas.

Not all of his ideas were bad, but on balance I thought his ideas disagreeable and wrongheaded. That makes him wrong, not evil.
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phusion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
73. I agree. n/t
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eppur_se_muova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
30. "Overseas, Friedman's work helped shape policies used in Chile and Argentina in the 1970s."
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
32. Milton Friedman was the grandfatherly-looking front man for
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 01:42 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
laissez-faire economics. I still remember his PBS series (ooh, more "liberal bias" from PBS) Free to Choose, in which he smilingly argued for letting business run amuck, all the while acting as if it was the most obvious thing in the world and that he had only the deepest pity for the benighted fools who wanted government regulations and protections for the vulnerable.

He and his disciples have probably harmed more countries than all the Islamic militants combined.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
33. RIP - I still think he was wrong on economics, though
I think he honestly believed what he said and wrote; but I think it had a very bad effect on many countries, including my own through Maggie Thatcher's enthusiasm for his principles.

Glad he had a long life, and won't piss on his grave; but I don't think he should have had a Nobel prize for what were really damaging theories.
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Katzenjammer Donating Member (541 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
34. He lived 95 years too long. (nt)
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
36. He Wanted to Privitize All Public Education
I saw him on a panel, and he proposed privitizing all levels of education. He used our universities and colleges as a model. What he failed to mention is that the tuition at American universities and colleges has risen at levels much higher than the rate of inflation for at least 40 years, and he wants to duplicate this model for K-12?

In his world, only the rich deserve to live well. Everyone else is throw away human garbage taking up space. The true irony of Friedman's philosophy is that if it truly were enacted it would lead to socialism or communism. Yes, the rich may have all of the wealth, but they won't have the numbers to keep the masses at bay.

A strong middle class is what creates economic and political stability.

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coda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
37. "A tax cut that adds to the deficit today .....

"A tax cut that adds to the deficit today, is just a tax hike on future taxpayers."

- Economist Milton Friedman
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
40. Economics: the secret of longevity.
Friedman: 94
Galbraith: 97
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. But in the long run, we're all dead (J.M. Keynes). n/t
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Idioteque Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
42. I'm kind of disappointed in some of the responses here.
I'm currently an economics major in college and while I didn't agree with Mr. Friedman on everything , I have no doubt in my mind that he was a brilliant man and the most influential economist since Keynes.
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. "Flatten 'em all, let the market sort 'em out"
isn't economic policy nor is it a progressive value. Sorry you're disappointed, but we don't believe all monies and wealth should nestle with one class of people to create as overwhelming an advantage as they see fit.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #42
84. I am also an Econ major, and
Brilliant doesn't mean he and his schemes weren't pure evil in their conceptions and their consequences.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
43. Good riddance to the most dismal of the dismal scientists
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
44. Good Riddance.
The evils that man's economic "theories" (more like corporatist propaganda) inflicted on people are enough to send hHm to the 9th circle of Hell.
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
58. Read his letter to William Bennett
Good stuff. He saw what the drug war would do and was largely correct:

http://www.fff.org/freedom/0490e.asp
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Amused Musings Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
46. I hesistate to call him "evil" or dismiss him
He was a very smart man, its just that he was a libertarian and that's what libertarians believe in. He wishes to craft a world based on economic liberalism because he sincerely believed it led to personal freedom and the pursuit of happiness. But yeah, its a kinda selfish ideology (or at least excuses such selfishness if many individual libertarians are generally nice people)
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
50. And the oligarchs are stricken with grief
:puke:
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
56. GOOD!
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
57. I'm no fan of Friedman and his comic book like briefs on capitalism
I'm sorry he has passed, but his championing of Hong Kong as the triumph of capitalism was about as simplistic as could be.

Ignoring the near starvation level there of many of its citizens, the begging, the disease and such was not even a white-wash, it was just a lie.

Having spent years in and out of Hong Kong throughout three decades, I know the Hong Kong he saw, but also the Hong Kong he ignored from his vantage point of the Peninsula Hotel in Kowloon.

The so-called "invisible hand of capitalism" is just nonsense. It's "invisible" because it doesn't exist.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
59. Buh Bye.... (nt)
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
60. He proposed a minimum income for every citizen.
Yep, really. He favored eliminating other welfare programs by instituting a negative income tax. The argument for a negative income tax is that it eliminates various other qualifications and restrictions on welfare that are more moralistically oriented than pragmatic, it gradually lessens the benefit as people earn more so that it doesn't influence work decisions, and it meshes with the existing tax structure, thus eliminating some bureaucracy.

:hippie:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #60
81. Hmmm, intersting. I guess he wasn't as bad as I thought.
I think the main problem with Friedman is that he idealized market mechanisms too much. IMO the market is just a tool used by society to distribute goods and services. The problem with many libertarian types is that they treat the market as a sacred cow and a pancea instead of a tool.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #81
85. Friedman would partly agree and partly dissent.
"IMO the market is just a tool used by society to distribute goods and services."

To the extent that I understood him, Friedman would agree with the first part of that statement, up to the word "society." He did not view economics as above society, or the ideal market as the sine qua non of moral reasoning. Many libertarians do, and argued with Friedman on that point. Objectivists in particular criticized Friedman for his "utilitarianism."

On the other hand, I think Friedman would say that your view of the market is too limited. It is not just a distribution mechanism. Rather than putting words in his mouth, I will use my own: the capitalist market is primarily a mechanism for creation, discovery, and evolution, a tool for creating new kinds of goods and services, discovering which of those people want, and evolving business processes, including technology, that deliver them more efficiently. In a half century, we went from LPs that were expensive pieces of furniture to iPods. I think one of the primary differences between liberals and socialists is that liberals more understand the role of capitalism in that creative process, where socialists think it is going to happen somehow, anyway, and tend to view economics as a solely or mostly a distribution issue.
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #85
96. Nicely said. n/t
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #60
86. Earned income Tax credit
This is the negative income tax idea of Friedman's that is current law.
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eallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #86
88. Yep. But what Friedman proposed was more sweeping.
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ItNerd4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #60
93. Please don't confuse people with facts
Everybody seems to want to believe he was pure evil.

His monetary theories have helped keep inflation under control for over 20 years and is considered extremely important by both Democrats and Republicans.

I never heard of the minimum income program, but it seems to make alot of sense. Thanks for the information!
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
63. It's good to know that evil is not immortal.
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Anakin Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
64. Well, Trickle Your @$$ On Down to Hell!
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 07:25 PM by Anakin Skywalker
You corporatist jerk!
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Phillycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #64
92. HA! Perfect!
:thumbsup:
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progressoid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
66. I'm all teary-eyed about this...
no, wait, it's just allergies. Sorry.
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Lasthorseman Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
67. Good riddance
Not a monment too soon!
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
68. the modern proto-type for tapeworms is permanently sucking dust.
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BlueStater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
69. I'm not familar with the man's work
What did he do exactly that was so evil that people on this board are happy he's dead?
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. responsible for intellectual underpinnings for free market better than gvmt spending
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 09:52 PM by goodhue
Godfather of trickle down
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
74. I can't wait to trickle down on that motherfucker's grave
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. oooh, me too... I have already done so`
on Hoover's... I can't wait.
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gtar100 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
75. You people are irreverent!!

That's what I love about DU!

:yourock: <--for all of you!
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Joe Bacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
78. Now he will answer for enabling Pinochet
He was soooooooo full of himself and his "Chicago Boys" who raped Chile after killing Allende.

Go to hell, Milton. That's where you belong!
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
79. 'go, give 'im 200 dollars."
Edited on Fri Nov-17-06 12:26 AM by sweetheart
Milton Friedman passed Go on the monopoly board of life, he collected 200 worthless
dollars worth nothing relative to the dollar value when he last passed go. In that
respect, during his circumnambulation of the board, the empire has been sold off,
and a sort of flexible accounting was sought out to apologize for the missing hard
value. 200 bucks is monopoly money, thanks milton.
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
80. Memo to Pinochet: Your buddy just went to hell and is waiting for you
n/t
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
83. Another inhabitant for the Hitler-Stalin-Bush Wing of Hell
Although, Uncle Miltie merely provided economic and intellectual cover for a tremendous band of pirates, thieves, and murderers.

Maybe they'll give him the room next to Hitler's economists.
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
89. Learn more about him first
Many of the comments here display what I think is a lack of knowledge about him. While I disagree with some of his views (especially on free trade), I agree wholeheartedly with others (price fixing is bad and the drug war is evil). Other views I don't have the expertise to know for sure, but it seems hard to take issue with his belief that inflation and the money supply are tightly integrated (his work to show this is what earned him the Nobel prize).

From what I've read about him, his goal for our economy was the same as most everyone else's - find the best way of producing and distributing goods in the most efficient and equitable fashion.

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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. AGREED
There's a lot of ignorance being flaunted here about who Friedman was. I'm not saying you have to like him, but he wasn't wrong on everything.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #89
97. I agree with you too, MUSTANG_2004
Policies based on his theories have been very successful at keeping inflation under control. Most people aren't old enough to remember how bad it was not very long ago. Sure, his philosophy benefited the wealthiest and most aggressive, but he was certainly not in favor of throwing the poor to the lions as some here seem to believe.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #97
105. His anti-inflation stuff was only good when it was hybridized with Keynesianism.
Paul Volker, the Carter-appaointed Fed chariman who brought Stagflation under control was one of these "Neo-Keynesians."
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. True of many things
Very few people have all the answers, and the right answers are from contributions from many sources.

As I said, some of his ideas I agree with, some I don't, but I think the demonizing comments were off the mark.
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
90. Milton said it's better to reign in hell, than serve in heaven. lol
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Bullshot Donating Member (807 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
100. Milton Friedman has passed...
like a kidney stone.
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screenplaya Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
101. Watched a C-SPAN Rerun
C-SPAN had an interview from 1994. This guy was a hypocrite. He was all about numbers. No empathy or understanding of any intangible benefit to society by investing in people. He was a benefitiary of the state's money but begrudged others the same opportunity. His ideas were proped up by people who profited from it. He had no idea or care for the human ramifications of his pseudo-free-market spin, it was all about math and numbers. It's not like this guy went war in WWII. The real men were fighting and dying while he was living it up in universities.
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. Well said.
His ideas were propped up by those who stood to profit from them. Economists like to wrap themselves up in the mantra of 'rigor' and mathematical fundaments, ignoring this obvious political influences that drive the popularity of their ideas.
Notice how the Nobel prize in Economics is not really a Nobel. It is all little more than a whoring out of academicians to corporate sponsors.
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MUSTANG_2004 Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. His WWII service
Actually, he spent the first two years of the war working for the US Treasury where he helped develop the withholding tax, which helped to fund the war effort. As far as joining the army, that would have been admirable, but at age 29 when the war started in 1941, he wasn't really the target age group for volunteers, so I don't think his not joining should be held against him.

As far as being concerned about math and numbers, what do you expect from a professor of economics?
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Bonescrat Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
107. What? The bar exam? The MCATs? nt.
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