Navy probes My Lai type killing of Iraqi civilians

[LiberalEsto]

I only caught a little bit of Brian Williams' report but he was quoting someone who called this a major atrocity. A woman and child were killed while praying.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/

By Jim Miklaszewski
and Mike Viqueira
NBC News
Updated: 7:05 p.m. ET May 17, 2006
WASHINGTON - A Pentagon probe into the death of Iraqi civilians last November in the Iraqi city of Haditha will show that U.S. Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood," a U.S. lawmaker said Wednesday.

From the beginning, Iraqis in the town of Haditha said U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children...


On Wednesday (today), Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said the accounts are true.

Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps' own evidence appears to show Murtha is right.

[leftchick]

1. they do this every day

with bombings, check points, raids, reactions to car bombs... innocents are killed daily by the USA. Remember the checkpoint where the parents were killed in front of the kids? Big deal they look at ONE! :puke:

example:

US airstrike near Mosul kills civilians


Sunday 09 January 2005, 0:13 Makka Time, 21:13 GMT


Residents of a northern Iraqi village said on Saturday that an overnight airstrike, which the US admitted was a mistake, had killed 14 civilians.

The US military said it dropped a 500lb laser-guided bomb on a house, mistaking it for a nearby suspected hideout of fighters. It said five people were killed.

An official from a joint US-Iraqi security centre for the Salahuddin province put the toll at 13, including four women and three children. He said the dead were all from the same family.

Reuters pictures showed a house in the village of Aaytha, southeast of the northern city of Mosul, reduced to rubble.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3B46C2E3-26CB-4232-8C2E-1B9260D0BBFF.htm

[LiberalEsto]

2. While I'm saddened by this news, I wasn't surprised

I hate to think of all the horror that is happening in Iraq. It could have been avoided if only George-Dick-Rummy weren't such bloodthirsty warmongers. Iraqis and Americans will suffer nightmares for decades once this is over.

At least this one is being investigated.

[leftchick]

8. just yeaterday the US bombed a home in Ramadi

and killed 14 family members. Those are never investigated.

[manic expression]

24. Remember that wedding?

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[MisterP]

71. 2nd anniversary on the 19th, tomorrow

only two years--how long it seems

[Xithras]

59. This actually s different.

Almost universally, when civilians get killed by our soldiers it's the result of a major f***up. A car is assumed to be a military threat when it isn't. A house that is supposed to be a terrorist stronghold turns out to be the home of a local schoolteacher. Late night gun-runners turn out to be farmers. While they are all wrong, very very few are the result of malice against innocent Iraqi's.

This case is different...it's murder. These guys knew ther victims were innocents, and shot them anyway. That's what made Mai Lai different, and it's what sets this situation apart. It's not incompetence this time, it's not indifference, these people died because the soldiers decided that they didn't deserve to live.

:mad:

[saigon68]

64. Its murder by a gang of hoodlums

These thugs are criminals and should be tried as such. Not given a pass like this one was.




This guy was beaten to death.

To this day the US military has fixed no responsibility for his death.

[lebkuchen]

65. Well heck! Their buddy was killed, wasn't he?

Doesn't that deserve a random house raid with the intent that all inhabitants be blown away as compensation?

What's a marine's life worth to you, anyway? Buck up and act like a 'Merican!

[saigon68]

66. I HEARD OF THAT BEING DONE

I NEVER PERSONALLY SAW IT

I guess we will have to ask Rusty Calley why his men were so pissed off.

Apparently the spirit of Rusty lives on.

READ THIS


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0429-30.htm

[lebkuchen]

68. I would bet my life's savings that the squad leader made the call

to "light up" this family...or whoever had the highest rank at the time.

W/the internet, we have instant access to the daily routines of America's equivalent of the SS. No wonder Iraqis are leaving the country by the hundreds of thousands.

[BikeWriter]

72. I would bet five bucks you've never been in combat.

[lebkuchen]

73. Did you wish to make a point?

I've read too many articles on/about/by returning soldiers who are told by commanding officers, higher than squadron, to kill Iraqis. The number of Iraqis killed is celebrated during morning formation.

I'll bet you know lots of jodie chants about killing. I'm willing to be "entertained." Hit it.

[BikeWriter]

74. So you've never been in combat yet you know how vets think.

[lebkuchen]

83. Please escort me to my quote.

[BikeWriter]

85. You compared our troops to Nazi SS, and "bet"...

"the squad leader made the call to "light up" this family..." You know a hell of a lot about combat for a non-combatant!

[lebkuchen]

87. You're telling me that isn't happening in Iraq?

When the head of the Defense Dept. promotes such behavior, how do you expect the chain of command to respond?

Our soldiers, and in particular, private contractors, are "lighting up" Iraqi people, of all ages, all over the country. That is why the Iraqi people are fleeing their country. They're not fleeing Saddam. They're fleeing US forces/private contractors and the mayhem those forces have created. That is a matter of public record.

Do you object to the behavior, or are you saying it simply isn't taking place?

Lack of cultural training of US personnel in Iraq was a big reason why the Coalition did not include the largest members of NATO, who knew that when a country preemptively attacks another and proceeds to blow people away, the mission is undermined, as it is now, hopelessly.

[BikeWriter]

89. Our troops did not decide to invade Iraq...

Put the blame where it belongs! They are over there getting shot at, stuffing their friend's mangled bodies into body bags. Don't condemn our troops until you've smelled the stench of your best friend's guts spilling out in the dirt.

[lebkuchen]

90. You don't think troops are following orders to kill Iraqis?

"I was just following orders." Seems like I've heard that before, and recently.

Incidentally, I'll leave the condemning to the GOP. That's what Their Holiness is best at. But don't give me your sanctimonious BS about the troops. Less than sterling observations are made of other professions all the time, such as doctors, lawyers and educators, often by people who have no education themselves. Why should the military profession be any different, especially when those of the BDU cloth are admitting to "lighting up" families they're supposed to be liberating, on the tax dollar? I'm not military, but I assume "lighting up" doesn't mean the bar-b-que pit.

Backdoor draft aside, those in the military volunteered to smell the stench of their best friend's guts and stuff the mangled bodies into body bags, and many are reup-ing, according to Donald Rumsfeld. Most are in the military because they have no better offer in life other than to play Russian Roulette with their own lives. The US military is the largest social service organization in the world, and it pays what the market will bear, which makes today's soldiers nothing more than cheap cannon fodder. If they were able to afford an education and get a better paying job, many would not consider military service. Those not born into wealth and knowledge have limited choices, and many choose a profession that includes following somebody's insane orders.

Three, four, five, six deployments to a war zone-- doesn't matter. Those that have no where else to go, no other skills other than killing others, in the name of "democracy," as a means of supporting their family, will make a career of "lighting up" innocent people in foreign lands. And that's just the way it is.

[BikeWriter]

91. Go ahead, the freepers just love to quote shit like that.

[lebkuchen]

94. They'd be quoting, as I have, the CO of an F/A-18 squadron

Blame it on Iwakuni.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

3. Jack Murtha talked about it at length

on Hardball tonight. And he's a Marine.

He's backing his guys, though, saying how stressed they are.

But, god bless him, Murtha will NOT be silenced about anything, right or wrong, and I just love him for that.

[rodeodance]

6. yes, I heard him. He said he was not excusing them--but I think he really

wants them out before more things like this happens.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

9. Yeah, that's the sense I got

The guy's never shut up about getting them out. Not for a minute.

Tweety mentioned My Lai and I froze.

[lebkuchen]

69. Yeah, an 18 y.o would be stressed, told by his commander to shoot

Chances are, he'll follow orders. At least that's what his defense will be, should anyone on this sorry planet ever acknowledge that war crimes are taking place.

Christ, you'd think the UN didn't exist, and that was created to prevent more shit like this from happening.

[truthisfreedom]

4. and what will be done? anything? except smear Murtha some more?

[rodeodance]

7. why do you say smear Murtha?

[rodeodance]

5. Murtha was on Tweety just now--called it cold blooded and was angry

that the soldiers are under so much stress. said more like this could occur. He said it is no excuse. but was angry --said need to get out.

[Kenergy]

10. A Pentagon probe -

That says it all for me ... the Pentagone will find no wrongdoing.

End of story.

<rant off>

[A Brand New World]

12. Or they'll find that all the privates, or whatever the lower level

guys are called, at fault and they'll end up in prison. No one high up will be punished at all, especially Rumsfeld and **.

[teknomanzer]

82. Maybe there is another Colin Powell in the making...

some young officer's career could be made with the coverup investigation of this one...

[peacetalksforall]

11. I hope the world knows that this is not what most of us want. I deplore

our every death. Please, can't we stop this?

[greenman3610]

13. one event was covered in the London Times

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2103695,00.html


THE villagers of Abu Sifa near the Iraqi town of Balad had become used to the sound of explosions at night as American forces searched the area for suspected insurgents. But one night two weeks ago Issa Harat Khalaf heard a different sound that chilled him to the bone.

Khalaf, a 33-year-old security officer guarding oil pipelines, saw a US helicopter land near his home. American soldiers stormed out of the Chinook and advanced on a house owned by Khalaf’s brother Fayez, firing as they went.

Khalaf ran from his own house and hid in a nearby grove of trees. He saw the soldiers enter his brother’s home and then heard the sound of women and children screaming.

“Then there was a lot of machinegun fire,” he said last week. After that there was the most frightening sound of all — silence, followed by explosions as the soldiers left the house.

Once the troops were gone, Khalaf and his fellow villagers began a frantic search through the ruins of his brother’s home. Abu Sifa was about to join a lengthening list of Iraqi communities claiming to have suffered from American atrocities.

According to Iraqi police, 11 bodies were pulled from the wreckage of the house, among them four women and five children aged between six months and five years. An official police report obtained by a US reporter for Knight Ridder newspapers said: “The American forces gathered the family members in one room and executed 11 people.”

[RamboLiberal]

14. Marines killed Iraqi civilians 'in cold blood': US lawmaker (Murtha)

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/05/17/060518003922.gghhmjpk.html

A US lawmaker and former Marine colonel accused US Marines of killing innocent Iraqi civilians after a Marine comrade had been killed by a roadside bomb.

"Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," John Murtha told reporters. The November 19 incident occurred in Haditha, Iraq.

"There was no firefight" that led to the shootings at close range, the Vietnam war veteran said, denying early official accounts, which said that a roadside bomb had killed the Iraqis.

"There were no (roadside bombs) that killed these innocent people," he said.

[MadMaddie]

15. Oh wait for the swiftboating.....it's coming...

The neocons will excuse anything.....

We have many good soldiers but there are always bad apples...

[Kagemusha]

16. There's the 'good people snap under extreme pressure' theory.

I think that's closer to the truth, in the aggregate. There's always bad apples, but individuals don't do massacres. Groups do.

[TomInTib]

17. It is not a matter of 'bad apples' MadMaddie, it's kids under pressure

that normal folks cannot even imagine.

The best of us do atrocious, evil things when we are turned into survival-driven animals.

Unfortunately, I know this horror first-hand.

[MadMaddie]

18. Indeed you are right TomInTib...it is a matter of survival....

and about being in a hell hole that should have never happened....

Just like you they should have never been put in a position to experience the horror first-hand...

[madrchsod]

19. someone is telling murtha the truth

the army is in ruins,recruiters are turned into liers,the va hospitals are in ruin,and the future of the armed forces is in doubt unless there is a draft. the guys in the field watch mercenaries make 100,000 dollars and only answer to their employers,they drink contaminated water and food from contractors, and the worse thing they face is an enemy they know not who, when, or where. they were trained to fight a standing army not a shifting enemy in an urban area. they still get blown to bits in badly designed armored vehicles and body armor. the retired general are speaking out for those who cannot afford to speak and they trust murtha to tell the truth.
what is facing the military is the bush fight with iran which everyone involved,except bush,knows that we will lose thousands of men and machines. the arabian seas will be clogged with burning tankers and our fleet. i think the military is doing everything possible to stop this insanity

[Tansy_Gold]

84. And to make things even more difficult for us to sort out

emotionally, we have to remember that this is a "volunteer" military, not the massive build-up of draftees that went to Vietnam. Whether they're career military, enlistees who needed jobs or wanted money for college, reservists who stayed on for a little extra cash and camaraderie, national guard who wanted to put their military training to use in the event of a domestic emergency -- who knows what their reasons were, but they all joined of their own relatively free will.

How do we sort out the ones who joined for noble reasons from the ones who joined for ignoble ones? How do we sort out the innocent kids from the blood-thirsty renegades?

There was what seemed like a healthy discussion going on in another thread but it got locked for some reason or other, and maybe by my engaging over here this one will get locked, too. I dunno. I dunno nuthin' any more 'bout dis here war.

I'm reminded, on this gloriously sunny and hot day in the Arizona desert, of Charles Dickens and Ebeneezer Scrooge in "A Christmas Carol." There's a wish in me for the booshnazis to be visited at night by the ghosts of all the innocents who have perished in this accursed war. But Scrooge had a heart, once upon a time. I don't think the booshnazis ever did. I think they are utterly beyond redemption.


Tansy Gold

[Beausoir]

20. Oh god. Those poor people. This story is going to shock alot of sheeple.

This story will have "legs".

Those horrible murderers.

[alfredo]

21. This makes me so fuckin sad.

bush has brought out the worst in us.


I was listening to this song as I read.


John Vanderslice - "Heated Pool And Bar"

my cousin is in columbia

hunting down the rebels

over fields of bright and shiny coca



over the jungle floor

one-handing a 32

he says: “bring her down low now, I'm ready to go.?



“I hunt kids in camouflage

rain down bullets in flight, white light,

barefoot boys run for your lives.?



but you can't be nice

you put your gun to their head

and you pull back the pin

and you can't be good



my friend is based in afghanistan

he goes from cave to cave and pulls the trigger

at the first sight of a man



it's total anarchy

shooting tracer bullets at night

a high and holy patrol into poppy fields



but you can't be good

you hold up the bloody knife

and let it shine in the sun

you gotta be everywhere



I'm a guard in guantanamo

I bring the prisoners in

the hoods come off and torture slowly begins



the screams I've overheard

it'd fuck up a weaker man

but I'm cold, I'm so untouchable



and you can't be nice

I got a flak jacket

on my soul with me tonight

and you can't be good

[arewenotdemo]

22. this could be important

A lot of Americans who voted for Bush (and his vanity war, by extension) won't face their own complicity until FORCED to...in precisely the way Murtha is doing.

There has to be a fraction of the backwash that hesitates to applaud the execution of praying mothers and their crying children. My own Repuke Catholic relatives come to mind...

[Blue_Tires]

23. k+r

[leftchick]

25. k&r

:kick: for the dead. :(

[pnwmom]

26. Lawmaker (Murtha): Marines killed Iraqis "in cold blood."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/

WASHINGTON - A Pentagon probe into the death of Iraqi civilians last November in the Iraqi city of Haditha will show that U.S. Marines "killed innocent civilians in cold blood," a U.S. lawmaker said Wednesday.

From the beginning, Iraqis in the town of Haditha said U.S. Marines deliberately killed 15 unarmed Iraqi civilians, including seven women and three children.

One young Iraqi girl said the Marines killed six members of her family, including her parents. “The Americans came into the room where my father was praying,” she said, “and shot him.”

SNIP

Military officials told NBC News that the Marine Corps' own evidence appears to show Murtha is right.

SNIP

[fooj]

27. I don't know how to deal with this. I feel so helpless.

:cry:

[pnwmom]

29. I know, fooj, me too. But at least we still have people like

Murtha out there.

[Erika]

33. My suggestion would be to yell at the top of your lungs

that we should not be killing innocents aka write your DC Congresspeople. We had no right to be over there much less turning their country into a hellhole.

[fooj]

34. Erika...

I've been phoning, faxing and sending e-mails CONSTANTLY for at least a year now. NOTHING seems to work. Don't get me wrong. I'll NEVER give up! This is our country, damn it.

As Americans...we OWE it to our troops to fight with every last ounce of strength to bring them home. Now.

[Erika]

35. Yeah, we yell and they do nothing

But at least we tried. For those of you who believe in St. Peter that might mean a lot. The GOP let our troops die, we tried to stop it. Yeah, it hurts.

[fooj]

36. I hear ya.

I believe.

[pnwmom]

45. Fooj, I know it feels hopeless but it is people like you who are

going to finally bring the traitors down. And in the meantime, you can live with the knowledge that you're not one of the "good Germans."

(And I hope I need not add I'm not referring to today's Germans, but to the ones that stood by silently while Hitler persecuted the Jews.)

[saigon68]

49. Don't feel helpless-These are GI THUGS AND MURDERERS

They were trained to kill

Some of them LOVE IT.

The question was alawys asked---


Q: HOW CAN YOU KILL WOMEN AND CHILDREN?

A; YOU AIM A LITTLE LOWER.

[Erika]

28. Yes, as posted many times before

Our troops have been desensitized to the point they retaliated against Iraqi innocents. The Iraqis didn't want us there. They never harmed us but W chose to turn their land and people into a hellish environment. They have no recourse.

Our troops recourse is to shoot and kill the innocents as retribution. W, like in everything he touches, screwed this up also.

[pnwmom]

31. It's just Vietnam all over again. And it's not the soldiers now

anymore than it was then. It's about the impossible and inhuman situation they've been put in.

[rodeodance]

37. our troops are on edge-over-sensitized and stressed out. They have

been shot at, bombed at-they have seen their buddies blown up. they fear anything that moves-with good reason. Murthas so much as said that and says it will only get worse given the conditions over there. That is why he is so wants them out of there. He said this evening on Tweety show that horrible things like this will continue to happen. He does not excuse them.

[faithnotgreed]

30. and you know it deeply pains murtha (and all soldiers) to say this

you know its bloody awful when it comes to murtha revealing the only truth coming from the govt/military about this

thank you jack murtha

[pnwmom]

32. Yes, thank you Jack Murtha!

[faithnotgreed]

41. very well said~~

and thanks for starting the thread

i was glad that at least they said that military evidence backs him up
all i expect from the corporate media are lies so i was glad they werent going to try to go after him too

[fooj]

39. Exactly what I told my hubby.

:patriot:

[faithnotgreed]

40. i surely send you both a hug fooj

[babylonsister]

38. Murtha gave them a pass; he said

he doesn't condone it but understands their actions.
Sorry, that doesn't wash with me. I don't condone it or understand it.
And this is one episode we've been told about.


Here's the Time article on Haditha; Murtha said it's a whole lot

worse than what Time wrote, and the article is scathing.

http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,1174649,00.html


Edit for good link.

[fooj]

42. I disagree.

Murtha is obviously distraught by their actions. What he was trying to "frame" was the urgency of the message. Our soldiers are at the brink...emotionally, physically, morally...they are at the breaking point. I believe he was simply trying to point out HOW something this inconceivable could happen. Like he said..."This goes straight to the top."

[faithnotgreed]

43. i can understand your thoughts on that

i truly do
im green party and was raised evangelical quaker

but given his background i cant imagine jack murtha saying anything other than what he did
hes been there and knows what the horror is
when you put human beings in the radical violence that is combat i cannot imagine that he wouldnt think it was understandable but i am going to trust he didnt mean any more - or less - than just that


basically i just applaud him for speaking out with any truth
it cant be easy and i appreciate any words of sanity in the midst of this ongoing tragedy

this needs to end - any way possible
and if it takes him - a conservative military dem - to rise up because things are at a breaking point then im glad for anything he can do
as much as i despise and dont understand war

[pnwmom]

44. Thanks for the Time article. Here's a piece of it back.

"The available evidence does not provide conclusive proof that the Marines deliberately killed innocents in Haditha. But the accounts of human-rights groups that investigated the incident and survivors and local officials who spoke to Time do raise questions about whether the extent of force used by the Marines was justified—and whether the Marines were initially candid about what took place. Dr. Wahid, director of the local hospital in Haditha, who asked that his family name be withheld because, he says, he fears reprisals by U.S. troops, says the Marines brought 24 bodies to his hospital around midnight on Nov. 19. Wahid says the Marines claimed the victims had been killed by shrapnel from the roadside bomb. "But it was obvious to us that there were no organs slashed by shrapnel," Wahid says. "The bullet wounds were very apparent. Most of the victims were shot in the chest and the head--from close range."

A day after the incident, a Haditha journalism student videotaped the scene at the local morgue and at the homes where the killings had occurred. The video was obtained by the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, which cooperates with the internationally respected Human Rights Watch, and has been shared with Time. The tape makes for grisly viewing. It shows that many of the victims, especially the women and children, were still in their nightclothes when they died. The scenes from inside the houses show that the walls and ceilings are pockmarked with shrapnel and bullet holes as well as the telltale spray of blood. But the video does not reveal the presence of any bullet holes on the outside of the houses, which may cast doubt on the Marines' contention that after the ied exploded, the Marines and the insurgents engaged in a fierce gunfight.

There are also questions about why the military took so long to investigate the details of the Haditha incident. Soon after the killings, the mayor of Haditha, Emad Jawad Hamza, led an angry delegation of elders up to the Marine camp beside a dam on the Euphrates River. Hamza says, "The captain admitted that his men had made a mistake. He said that his men thought there were terrorists near the houses, and he didn't give any other reason."

But the military stood by its initial contention—that the Iraqis had been killed by an insurgent bomb—until January when Time gave a copy of the video and witnesses' testimony to Colonel Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad. After reviewing the evidence, Johnson passed it on to the military command, suggesting that the events of Haditha be given "a full and formal investigation." In February an infantry colonel went to Haditha for a weeklong probe in which he interviewed Marines, survivors and doctors at the morgue, according to military officials close to the investigation. The probe concluded that the civilians were in fact killed by Marines and not by an insurgent's bomb and that no insurgents appeared to be in the first two houses raided by the Marines. The probe found, however, that the deaths were the result of "collateral damage" rather than malicious intent by the Marines, investigators say."

You're right, of course, and yet, and yet . . . some of those soldiers are on their second or third tours of duty. They're all being led by a commander-in-chief who has condoned torture, at the very least, and possibly cold-blooded killing, at the worst. And, as in Vietnam, the ground soldiers are having to make minute by minute decisions about who is the enemy and who is an ally. From our perspective, we can't imagine how they could do something like this, how they could kill women and children and men at prayer. But none of us have walked in their shoes, have we? None of us have had to live in that particular insanity.

And if any of us has, I don't think we'd sound any more judgmental than Murtha .

[987654321]

46. I feel ill

Collateral Damage = Dead People
I wish more people understood that.

[pnwmom]

47. Sorry 987, to ruin your evening. I know exactly how you

feel. And welcome to DU. Maybe a look at this will give you a chuckle.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1219080

[987654321]

63. Thanks

I did need the chuckle.

[BooScout]

48. I cannot believe what I am reading in this thread...

A bunch of 'woe is us', hand wringing and pissed poor, lousy excuses of our poor Marines being stressed out and decensthesized??!!

Where the fuck is your outrage? This is not the first time this has happened. Yet every single fucking time I see something like this in the news , I hear shit like.............'oh it's just an isolated incident'. BULL SHIT.

How many god damned isolated incidents and excuses do we have to have to have before people wake the hell up? :mad:

[pnwmom]

50. The point I think is to direct the outrage at the source: the

Bush administration that is leading this war. Not the foot soldiers who are beginning to crack.

[BooScout]

51. Beginning to crack??

Bullshit. This has been going on since the beginning. Abu Gharib, Nasiriyah, Samarra, Basra, Camp Bucca, Camp X-Ray, Camp Delta, Majar al Kabir, Tikrit, the Tharthar Dam, Kerbela, Umm Kasr, Baghdad, my god the list of Human rights violations by coalition troops is endless and it started as soon as the war began.

These are not isolated incidences! The Red Cross, Amnesty International, the ACLU, The NY Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, The BBC, The Daily Mirror, UNICEF, and dozens upon dozens more of legitimate agencies have reported these violations and each and every single time I see shit like "ohhhhh they have been there too long, they are beginning to crack".

Yes I blame Bush.......but I also blame the US Military. These idiotic and piss poor excuses for their behaviour is just totally unaceptable. There is no excuse for Crimes against Humanity. Period.

[leftchick]

52. It has been happening every day since 3/03

I read Iraq news daily and inserted here and there are killings by US soldiers at checkpoints, house raids, after a car bombing and US strikes from the air. There is wholesale slaughter of Iraiqs going on and no one says shit about it!

:grr:

[BooScout]

53. Oh they say shit about it........

Shit like it's just 'isolated incidences':sarcasm:

What a crock. And people don't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks about America.:eyes:

[leftchick]

54. "precision strikes, insurgents killed, terrorists attacked"

all military cover language for killing them all and letting God sort them out.

:grr:

[babylonsister]

55. Boo, it becomes increasingly difficult to be against

this war yet support the troops when you read about travesties that happen like Haditha; I know what you mean. While I 'support the troops', I do not and never will support actions like this. Yes, these soldiers are stretched to the breaking point, but where's their humanity? And what will happen to these people when they get home?
It's such a mess. Bottom line, I blame it ALL on the blivet because we're still there, mission not accomplished, no end in sight. :(

[LiberalEsto]

62. It feels like Vietnam all over again

I lived through the 1960s, and I will never be able to forget the horror and shame I felt at what American politicians allowed to happen there.

I marched, protested, gave a speech or two, sent letters, and even took part in an action to stop a carrier ship from bringing nuclear warheads to the war zone. It was crazy, but we surrounded that gigantic carrier with tiny canoes, at least until the Coast Guard towed us away. We knew we weren't going to stop it, but after so many years of war we felt we had to do something, or we would never be able to forgive ourselves.

We knew My Lai was the tip of the iceberg. We knew that those of our generation who fought in Vietnam were coming home haunted, shocked, sick from what they had experienced. Some of them came home addicted to heroin and other drugs they employed to numb the horror.

My greatest regret was that those of us who stayed here didn't welcome these military people home the way they should have been welcomed and helped. That will not happen again. Once we boot these hypocrite rethugs out of office, we will force our Democratic members of Congress to provide the care and assistance our returning soldiers need. Heaven knows, they will need it.

[zann725]

61. Keep extending people's deployment 2 & 3 times, rewrite torture laws

....Geneva Convention rules, create video games showing killing the "enemy" as pure manly fun...and pretty soon, REAL people in a young soldier's sight become just an UNreal target. Add a negative nickname (like "Gooks" in Vietnam) to the victims, and INEVITABLY another Mi Lai Massacre inevitably occurs. Only the name of the War, and soldiers-gone-wild change with Time.

If it happened like Murtha said, I'm sure there are many other instances he's not YET aware of. Given this Admin's blatant disregard for "Rules of Combat (that did NOT exist during Vietnam)," that indicates this cold-blood 'approved' mass murder of civilians probably trickled down many times over.

[genie_weenie]

56. "This is what comes of empire building.''

Harry "Breaker" Morant

I had hoped these things hadn't happened, but was less and less hopeful as more information came out. It is the doom of man that he forget and forces ever generation to experience the destruction of body and soul. Because make no mistake this is not bad apples but to quote Breaker Morant again. "The barbarities of war are seldom committed by abnormal men. The tragedy of war is that these horrors are committed by normal men in abnormal situations." - Major J.F. Thomas, defence attorney for The Scapegoats of the Empire.

So, is it a wonder men who have been under stress for months, have had years of INDOCTRINATION to desensitize you to the idea of killing another Human Being, maybe are a little trigger happy, maybe a little bit jittery from getting mortared daily, maybe have an ulcer from having your gut tightly clenched for hours on end during your HMMMWV patrol, have been berated as a coward or threatened with discipline if you refuse to go out on patrol finally break. But, hey America supports you, America cares about you that's why you're on your 3rd tour in Iraq, your marriage is in a shambles, you missed your sons birth, people pay more attention to American Idol or Paris Hilton's new sexual partner. Americans would let you languish overseas if it wasn't important.

The ultimate tragedy is so many will not learn and this cycle will be repeated in another 25 years with a new generation. * and his enablers will not grasp the problem either. To them war should go like a game of RISK, you move your faceless nondescript pieces onto a section of the world you wish to conquer and remove the faceless, soulless, nondescript pieces which had previously been there. To them this will be just another facet of war and if it ultimately ends with America suffering another Vietnam Syndrome, they won't blame themselves, they will work hard to blame you.

"These men sometimes speak approvingly to each other of the massacre at My Lai. Hey, they were all Cong. If they weren’t, they knew who the Cong were and didn’t tell us. Calley did the right thing, taught them a lesson. There is an admiration of Calley for having avoided bureaucratic rules of engagement probably dreamed up by civilians. War is war. You kill people. Deal with it."
http://www.strike-the-root.com/61/reed/reed3.html

[rman]

57. While My Lai was merely the tip of the iceberg -

those kinds of things were (and presumably still are) the rule rather then the exception.

--
The Life and Times of Noam Chomsky: A Brief History of America's Leading Dissident
http://www.democracynow.org/static/chomskymit.shtml

"The most people will talk about is My Lai, which was like a footnote. I mean, I was asked when My Lai was exposed by the New York Review, which I was then writing for, to write an article about it, and I said I would do it only if I mentioned it marginally, which I did. I mentioned it marginally. Then I talked about the main atrocities going on. My Lai was part of -- at that time it was part of one of the big mass murder operations, post-Tet classification campaigns, they were called, and which were just horrendous. Ed Herman and I went through a lot of them in a book we wrote. We used notes that were given to me by Kevin Buckley, who was head of the Newsweek office in Saigon, who did a very detailed investigation of one of these campaigns of which My Lai was part, and Newsweek wouldn't publish it, so he gave me the notes, and we published it. My Lai was literally a footnote."

[AzDar]

58. Goddamn. n/t

[progressivebydesign]

60. Some cub scouts here are flying a flag that flew in Fallujah..

Frankly, it sickens me, knowing what type of killing went on there.. when they ordered the media out and sealed the city. Sounds like a similar deal.

Hey.. we all support the troops, but we don't support the killing of innocents.

[saigon68]

67. SORRY IT GOES WITH THE TERRITORY

[The_Casual_Observer]

75. Stupid blind jingoist parents are just prolonging this shit.

Fools.

[entanglement]

70. Kick

:kick:

[sweetheart]

76. bush/blair --> Hague war crimes tribunal

NOW. Or sort it in the domestic courts, but to not prosecute such
blatant war criminality puts the entirity of western judiciality at risk.

[Moderator]

77. Kick

[rodeodance]

78. Lawmaker says Marines killed Iraqis 'in cold blood'

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/18/murtha.marines/index.html?section=cnn_topstories&eref=yahoo

Lawmaker says Marines killed Iraqis 'in cold blood'
Citing ongoing investigation, Marines mum

From Jamie McIntyre
CNN
Friday, May 19, 2006; Posted: 3:26 a.m. EDT (07:26 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A decorated Marine colonel turned anti-war congressman has said Marines killed at least 30 innocent Iraqi civilians "in cold blood" in Haditha in November, suggesting the death toll may be twice as high as originally reported.

Rep. John Murtha, D-Pennsylvania, told reporters Wednesday that he got his information from U.S. commanders, who said the investigation will show that the Marines deliberately killed the civilians.
.....

"There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," Murtha said. (Watch Murtha level accusations against the Marines -- 1:58).......

Last month, the battalion commander and two company commanders were relieved of their commands and reassigned to staff jobs at Camp Pendleton in California.

[rodeodance]

79. I heard Murtha on Chris Matthews--He said he does not excuse this be-

havior but his focus was on the need to get the troops out of Irag--out of these situations where they constantly are in a state of hyperreaction/stress.

[rodeodance]

80. it seems that the story has changed a few times.

...The Iraqi civilians were killed while troops from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines were looking for insurgents who planted a roadside bomb that killed a member of their unit.

At first, the Marines said the civilians were killed by a roadside bomb. Later, they suggested the victims may have been caught in a firefight.

An Iraqi human rights group, Hammurabi Human Rights Association, caught the scene on video, which was obtained by Time magazine. A criminal investigation ensued.

[SKKY]

81. As a veteran, I can only pray this isn't true. For the love of all...

...that's good I hope this isn't true.

[BikeWriter]

86. You got that right, Brother. :-(

[nguoihue]

88. It probably is though

I'd bet on it. I am a combat veteran and some guys get to be "kill crazy" after a while. Sometimes they are in charge. I personally know of one USMC Sgt. who shot and killed an ole man on a trail in cold blood. He was just a villager carrying a "ganh pole". I was not on that patrol but some of the guys who were were buddies and they were pissed over the incident.

Sad but true.

[LibertyorDeath]

92. Video of the aftermath of this War Crime ((((WARNING Graphic))))

((((WARNING Graphic))))

http://www.ameratsu.com/media/vid/bbc/bbc_iraq_haditha_investigation_060322a_320x240.wmv

[knight_of_the_star]

93. My Gods

"Just following orders" was declared an invalid defense at Nuremburg, I don't think its changed much since.