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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:16 AM
Original message
Bush: Immigrants Have Shaped America's Identity

http://www.nbc17.com/news/8289738/detail.html

Bush: Immigrants Have Shaped America's Identity

<snip>

The president said that the immigration debate should be conducted in a civil and decent way. He said nobody should claim that immigrants are a drain on our society.

"Immigrants have shaped America's identity," Bush said.

"Our immigrant heritage has enriched America's history, it continues to shape our society. Each generation of immigrants brings a renewal to our national heritage and brings a vitality to our national culture," Bush said.

"I've called on Congress to increase the number of green cards that can lead to citizenship," Bush said.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'm going to hand it to the president on this one
Broken clocks are right twice a day (unless they're the AM/PM kind) :P
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Southsideirish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Like "even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while?" nt
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. This is the first statement he's ever made
that I really can't find fault with (and it's driving Freepers crazy today, so there must be some sense to it) :silly:
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da_chimperor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
66. I agree with it as well
:wow:

I think there was one other statement that he made that I agreed with, so this makes two. Now, if you ask me what has he done that I agree with; that count is still zero.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
16. Same here. I never thought I'd agree with the man on anything. nt
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. yeah -- it must be upside-down day, or something!
I'm going to save this news item, because it's rare to find words that Bush and I agree on!
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VirginiaDem Donating Member (574 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. Not only is he right on this but he's been consistent.
Before 9/11 he proposed a similar plan. He took a lot of heat from right-wingers then, as well. For all intents and purposes, he appears to believe in it.

I'm not saying that everything about the plan is great but it is an attempt to find middle ground on a difficult issue.

Not only is he driving a wedge through the Republican party (or unifying it in opposition, depending on who you believe), but he's driven a wedge through Democrats, if this thread is any indication.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. I have no problem with 'immigrants'. It's the 'ILLEGAL immigrants'
who are problematic.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Prohibition made alcohol illegal...
... was everyone who took a nip now and then a villainous scoundrel? Or was it just a stupid law? South Dakota just passed a law virtually outlawing abortion, in direct, willful defiance of existing law. Will those South Dakota women who choose to have abortions anyway be breaking the law? Most assuredly. But how many of us here would blame them?

Alright, these people are breaking the law and that is not to be commended, but I think the fact that we have such a fucked-up immigration law needs to take its fair share of the blame. Most of the immigrants who are here illegally would love to be here legally rather than illegally. Moreover, most of them could qualify for existing visa categories established under US law. So why aren't they getting visas legally? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that Congress only authorizes a tiny number of visas each year for qualified aliens, so the wait for an available visa number may be as much as 20 years. My point is that the only thing separating "legal immigrants" from "illegal immigrants" is the poor planning of conservative lawmakers - the same guys who brought you the Patriot Act and other such great laws - in authorizing visas for only a miniscule portion of those immigrants they themselves have determined to be "qualified" and eligible for the visas they're withholding. It's not a very workable system as it stands, and I think that should be born in mind, if only as a mitigating factor, in how harshly we judge illegal immigrants.
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I personally disagree with MANY laws; however, if I knowingly violate
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 01:58 PM by AzDar
them, I would be expected to be held accountable for my actions.
Granted, the laws regarding immigration may not be 100% agreeable..but we cannot cherry-pick which laws we 'believe are fair', and adhere only to those.
There is also the consideration of how 'unfair' it is when illegal immigration is so widely tolerated, to those bothering to obey the laws and enter the Country through the proper (legal) channels.
Quite the slap in the face....
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Agreed
Despite what it may sound like, I'm actually not a proponent of illegal immigration. I just feel strongly that the poor performance of the system reflects a great many different factors, for many of which we ourselves bear responsibility. It's therefore unfair and hypocritical to lay all of the blame at the feet of illegal aliens. I think it also impedes formulation of responsible reform measures if we choose to look at the issue in overly-simplified, black and white terms which conveniently let ourselves off the hook for the role we play in the whole mess.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. I've broken laws in actions of civil disobedience
and always expected to be subject to the penalties of the law, regardless of the justice of it. Ignoring any law seems wrong to me. If one breaks the law, there should be penalties. If the law is injust, work to change it, if only out of respect to those who are obeying it.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
64. Yet you consciously and willfully broke the law anyway
And I would wager that, the last time you jaywalked or crossed against a Don't Walk sign, you probably didn't go rushing off to the nearest police precinct to turn yourself in. Why didn't you?

C'mon, be fair. Very few, if any, of us are so fanatically law-abiding that we won't occasionally weigh compliance with the law against our own needs and conclude that the latter outweighs the former. In other words, we come up with out own interpretations of what the spirit of the law was and whether it's substantively served by us standing like a sheep before a Don't Walk sign at a deserted intersection in the middle of the night without a car to be seen for miles.

Agreed, the law being violated by undocumented border crossers is much more substantive than a local jay-walking ordinance and the consequences are greater, but then again, the need of the individual to violate it is also proportionately greater. No, I don't think that excuses them for doing it, but I do think it mitigates, and I think it's self-deluding to pretend that we ourselves are such law-abiding types that we would never in a million years do what these guys are doing. Bullshit. When it's your family that's hungry, you can't find work, there's a US company on the other side of the border willing to pay you what for you amounts to a king's ransom, and, in some cases, they're even willing to help you get across the border, you're telling me your respect for law is going to govern your decision? Yeah, right.
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silverojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
61. Amen to that! n/t
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. Now that he has outsourced all the high-paying jobs, he wants to have
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 11:24 AM by BrklynLiberal
a source for all the really cheap labor.
Just another step in the BFEE's plan to destroy the middle class.

You can be sure he would not support any of these immigrants joining unions.
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Laid-off office workers used to be able to get by as a roofer or gardener
Now they can't even get a job at McDonald's.

Their teenage kids can't either. It's all illegals now.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. There go my people - I must hurry to
fool them into thinking I'm catching up with them.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. Guess he should have thought about that before starting
the hate mongering......
<snip>
"increasing the number of green cards that lead to citizenship"....
<snip>

This does not fix the underlying problem....what is going on in the countries that these immigrants are fleeing? Why are they allowed to flow across the borders in record numbers....

I shall say it again, "He is the stupidest human on earth"!!
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. "He is the stupidest human on earth" being manipulated by the evilest men
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. He'd rather advocate for cheap labor than a living wage
NOT a progressive position
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ugarte Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. When Bush is a voice of moderation
you know his party has gone freaking nuts.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. must be a part of his new makeover?
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. He's a vocie for cheap labor
One segment of his party couldn't be happier
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
52. yes a voice for cheap labor
it saddens me that cheap labor seems to be a bipartisan issue

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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Remember when the Dems were the pary of organized labor?
Good times...
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
44. it's a cover up
i tell ya!
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kurth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
11. Illegal immigrants are ILLEGAL, dipshit
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. So were we, if you'll recall
Precisely which Native American tribe issued us visas? The Cherokees? The Apaches? The Sioux? Yet we came anyway, because there was land and work to be had here.

Alright, so it's 200 years later and the world is a different place than it was then, but I still think it's important to remember that the undocumented aliens we're so pissed at these days are guilty of nothing we ourselves didn't do.

Secondly, I think that the culpability of violating a law, to some degree, has to be mitigated by how badly the law is written. I mean, if I succeed in getting a law passed that requires everyone to wear propeller beanies and you don't wear yours, yes, you're violating the law, but it was a pretty seriously stupid law to begin with. Similarly, our immigration law is majorly fucked up. We claim that we support legal immigration for certain categories of aliens (i.e., people with certain skills or familial relationships, refugees, whatever), but we only authorize each year a miniscule number of visas to aliens in those categories - far less than the number who qualify under the criteria we've laid out. Meanwhile, our companies go out and actively recruit undocumented labor to fill unattractive jobs most of us don't want to perform; we as consumers demand that companies provide goods and services at ultra-discounted prices, in essence rewarding - indeed even requiring - companies for cutting labor costs; then we get all pissed off at immigrants. Huh. Talk about misdirected anger!
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. None had formal mechanisms.
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 01:46 PM by igil
Some didn't much mind at the time. They had their politics; had they not, then the European settlers would have had troubles. As it was, some tribes tried to play off the newcomers against their rivals. Maybe it was good short-term tactics, but it was a horrible long-term strategy. Both in New England and in Texas. Then again, the French weren't averse to setting Indians against the British settlers, provoking conflict that, ultimately, the Indians (and the French) lost. In other places, the natives produced the bloodbath that many DUers seemed to expect from the Minutemen.

As for others, it was just invasion, frequently armed to begin with, usually armed to end the conflict. Calls to mind the one guy who objected to immigration into Texas--the immigrants were like Goths and Vandals, invading like the barbarians they were, without permission and in violation of established law, bringing their foreign culture and language, their institutions; if the legitimate government failed to take action, for sure they'd eventually assert their supremacy and take over.

Of course, he was right. He was a minister in the Mexican government in the 1820s. The quasi-racist "Goth" and "Vandal" jibes, of course, were just euphemisms, thinly veiled, for another Germanic tribe: Angles.

As for invasion and armed conquest, Texas history is rife with it. The Apaches were relatively recent invaders with no more claim to the land than the Spanish had; the Apaches cleansed the land of the previous inhabitants; a hundred or so years later the Comanches came in, and drove the Apaches further south. The Comanches barely arrived before the Spanish did. The Spanish, then the Mexicans, then the Texans, then the Americans, now the Mexicans ... just more in a long series of what amount to invasions.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. Most citizen that I've talked to, including people who post on DU
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 12:27 PM by fasttense
Do not object to immigrants. God, if we look back far enough in most of our genealogies, there are immigrants. What most US citizens I've talked to object to are illegal immigrants. Brush is pretending not to know the difference so he can act like those who object to illegals are racists. Brush did this with UAE controlling our port operations and he's doing it with immigrants.

It is NOT immigrants, it is Illegals that are being used by major corporations to steal cheap labor. These corporations are stealing by using illegals. They are stealing from the illegal their rightful pay. They are stealing from the illegal the right to work in a safe, fair environment. They are stealing from US citizens by pushing the burden of these severely underpaid worker's health care, housing, social problems onto US citizens to pay. They are stealing from US citizens by forcing labor costs down to slave wages.

Brush knows this is the concern of most citizens, but he also knows his base, the haves and have mores, are making billions from what they are stealing from illegals and from you and me.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
69. But his base is also full of the racists and the ignorant.
Bush certainly only cares about money. No denying that. But at the same time, let's not kid ourselves here, America is being downright hypocritical when it comes to this issue. I've seen so many "hey, a law is a law, you have to follow the laws" stuff by people who are against illegal immigrants. Hell, I'm against illegal immigration. However, I understand what they are trying to do. They're trying to feed their families. It's desperation. Why else would you come to a country to work for nothing in miserable conditions where people are openly hostile to you? We need to go after the corporations, NOT the victims.

You can't tell me that all these all of a sudden perfect law abiding citizens would just stay there and let their children starve in front of them rather than try something, ANYTHING, to save them. Our history is built on protest and built on people breaking the law to prove their points. And those people are heroes. So you call someone a degenerate for breaking the law to save their family and your excuse is "hey, a law's a law" you might as well call Harriet Tubman a degenerate for helping slaves, property, escape from the south. And call Rosa Parks a degenerate for not giving up her seat. Because according to these people, it doesn't matter WHAT they broke the law for, only that they broke it.

I am against illegal immigration, but blaming the victims isn't the answer. It's the time honored tradition, but it isn't the answer. We need to go after the corporations. If you fine the hell out of corporations that get caught, if you make it so it's not profitable anymore that will help. The other side of it is the immigration status itself. If mexican laborers are allowed to work here legally, they will have no fear of being sent back. They will be more likely to return home after earning what they need, and also more likely to report employers who try to go below minimum wage.

It's a complicated problem but "Oh my gawd it's the illegals" isn't the answer. It never has been. This country has been prejudiced against the Chinese, the Japanese, the Irish, the Catholics, the Italians, the Polish, the Jewish etc. It would seem like people with any of these bloods in them would be more sympathetic. But no...people have short term memories.
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
15. Yes, we have
America is a nation comprised predominately of immigrants, and it's fair to say we have shaped America for better or worse.

I find the tone of bush to be odd, it's as if someone is concerned they've been too liberal in feeding the hatred and has decided to take the edge off him. I suppose it's a reflection of an election year mixed with his unpopular polling causing the other republicans to tell his handlers to tighten his leash.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. He's pitching to Latinos
Don't forget, Latinos represent one of the fastest growing voter populations and their votes clinched the shrub's "victory" in 2004. Traditionally, it's been a Democratic stronghold, but since Dems have been of increasingly mixed minds about immigration, which is the number one issue for Latino voters, our hold on that group has been weakening. The shrub also gets to placate his corporate constituency which needs low-cost labor in order to provide their consumers with the rock-bottom prices we demand. It's a bit of a gamble, as he'll piss off the Tancredo xenophobes within his party, but a) he can't back off now without pissing off somebody and b) the Tancredo types aren't ever going to vote Democrat anyway, so there's little cost to pissing them off.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
37. He's playing to his base--the cheap labor conservatives
The pro-business Republicans
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #37
58. You got it!
We're so screwed!!
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
17. Bush skews the issue once again. No one is debating immigration...
.. (aside from the lunatic fringers, perhaps). What's being debated is ILLEGAL immigration.

Just like no one is debating wiretapping in the US, but rather ILLEGAL wiretapping.

Will the media point this out? Will any Democrats?

:shrug:
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
18. Wow
First time he has ever said anything I can't pick apart and criticize. I am stunned.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. In other words corporations want cheap labor.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
38. And he's going to do the bidding of the corporations
There's nothing new under the sun
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
20. Anyone listening to Thom Hartmann today?
Damn is he doing a good job of explaining why "illegal" immigration is destroying those who aspire to the middle class. I agree with Thom and not Bush or with the Repukes.

It's my belief that "illegal" immigration is driving down wages and taking away jobs. I liken the situation has a similar history to what happened in much of this country mid-late 1800's through early 1930's that became the foundation of the labor movement. The industrial barons like Carnegie, Henry Frick, Rockefeller's, etc. imported and used immigrants in their mines, mills and railroads as cheap replaceable labor. When one group would try to organize and demand better wages and working conditions the Carnegies and Fricks would import desparate new workers from another section of Europe.

My ancestors were those immigrants from Germany and Slovakia. I heard the brutal stories of a brutal 24 shift change workday in hot steel mills, and the loss of limbs and deaths working in the rail yards.

IMHO Bush supports guest workers to provide cheap labor to his business minions.
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candice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. There's always a horde of cheaper labor ready to take your job, or if "no
American" will do the job, why is that? Shouldn't wages be high enough to attrack legal workers? Seems the growth job today is fast food workers.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
65. "Why is that?" How can you even ask that?
Where do you imagine the money to pay higher wages is going to come from? The Tooth Fairy? To answer your question, the reason why low-wage businesses like Mal-Wart and fast food are the only growth industries in this country is because those are the only places you and me and all of the other hypocrits here are willing to spend our money. We talk and talk about how we want businesses to pay higher wages and offer better benefits, yet where do we turn when we go shopping? Straight into Mal-Wart, knowing full well that they screw their employees royally and that all of their goods are produced by overseas sweat shops. But it's only $3 for a sweatshirt! Fine, buy the $3 sweatshirt, but then don't you dare wonder why the clothing store down the street that paid its workers a living wage and offered benefits went out of business.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
42. Not Listening Today. But Hartmann Has The Destruction Of The Middle Class
issue nailed.

Has Dobbs facts/passion without the tendency to blame the immigrants, who are simply seeking a better life, over the Corporatists who are exploiting everyone involved.

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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
56. I suppose you'll also believe welfare queens ruined the middle class
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 07:21 PM by superconnected
when that comes up again.

Both of these groups are scape goats. The immigrants take the unskilled labor. The skilled labor got shipped to india. The middle class - which cannot pay rent on most of the jobs these immigrants take, are flailing because of corrupt corporate politics. But of course there will always be people to blame the most marginal among us, and people who believe them.
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
24. This POS is just talking to appease the public.
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 02:49 PM by pinniped
The POS doesn't even know what he reads.

I'm not falling for any shit this creep says.
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Blaze Diem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. When the Bush family immigrated to the US they should have
dropped the evil family overboard, then & there.

Dirty hands way back to Prescot..corruption in their DNA like some mutating virus.
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theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
28. Whatever you say, George. I'm going to fill out aps to
be a wagontrain guide/buffalo hunter or maybe ship out on a whaling ship. Sound like good jobs in this day and age.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Shrub reads what the Corps want him to say,
"Cheap labor without any employee rights to boost profits for business"

That is the crux of the matter.
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candice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
31. Since when did the U.S. have an immigration policy?
Did my ancestors come over illegally?
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. Translation: the big corporations need cheap foreign labor
to keep profits high and suppress demand for higher wages.

Bush asking for a campaign conducted in a "civil and decent way" is like Hitler . . . (can't complete the analogy, my brain is fried, but I'm sure some DU'er will complete it for me - - hint, hint :)
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Why do so few here see this?!
He doesn't love poor workers...he loves cheap labor. BIG difference!
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. This is the globalization\NAFTA swindle. To wit,
create multi-lateral trade agreements that do not restrict capital flows, but do restrict (or keep restrictions in place for) labor.

Global corporations have monopolistic power and can outsource work across national boundaries when confronted by national labor organizations with local monopsonistic power.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. Apparently they are incredibly stupid
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Indy_Dem_Defender Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #39
55. Agree 100%, Bush wants
illegal aliens here for cheap labor, he also has a personal interest invested as well since the bush family want to have another George Bush to be able to run for president someday. His nephew Jeb's kid, only problem is George P. Bush is half hispanic and alot of typical republican voters are racist so there is little chance they would vote for him because of this. So since the vast majority of illegals in this country are hispanic, by just letting them come in here freely and hopefully getting them to become citizens, that way in 15-20 years when George P. runs for president he can lay claim his uncle opened the borders to them have a wonderful life in the US and since he's half hispanic they believe that's guaranteed votes.
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ekelly Donating Member (303 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #39
59. I see it
and I honestly can't believe it sometimes.
But it's true. The destruction of the middle class is all part of the bigger plan.
Democracy can't survive without a middle class.

You would simply have those at the very top.....and those at the very bottom, being ruled by those at the top.
The middle class, quite literally, keeps things balanced and prevents the Bush*'s of the world from complete takeover.
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
40. But . . But . . But "We're A Nation Of Immigrants"
We're also a nation of bipedal mammals.

And neither is germane to the establishment of future immigration policy.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. ROFLMAO!
Biped mammals! That's great! Of course, my dog is pissed off at your complete lack of acknowledgment of the role her ancestors played in creating this great nation, but I'm rolling...

:rofl:
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
43. this "illegal immigration" issue is a smokescreen!
why wasn't anyone interested in this when it began in california? oh i see, now that it has become huge, the whole country is upset! NIMBY all over again. it's much too big to stop now.

i think he's trying to take our minds off the REAL issue and what he and his cronies are doing in the wh!
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Catfight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. Shanti,, good thoughts...but WHY now is a good question? Why
is this all of a sudden an issue? Bush could have kept his dumb fascist mouth shut and just left things as they are, so why the sudden need to 'help' immigrants? I agree that he's pandering for cheap labor for corporations, instead of a living wage for anyone that works ANY job, yet, I can't figure out WHY he brought this up at all? What will his changes do? Maybe keeping the oppressed exploited is his tactic? I don't know, but I just wish people would treat immigrants with dignity and pay them wages that really compensate for the exchange of slave labor, IMHO.
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
46. LEGAL immigrants have shaped America's identity...
..yes they have. ILLEGAL ones are a drain on society.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #46
68. Wow, what an inflammatory post. Sure am glad you backed it up with
facts. :eyes:
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Triana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. Paul Krugman: Illegal immigrants hurt our working poor
New York Times / March 27, 2006
North of the Border
By Paul Krugman

... I'm instinctively, emotionally pro-immigration. But a review of serious, nonpartisan research reveals some uncomfortable facts about the economics of modern immigration, and immigration from Mexico in particular. First, the net benefits to the U.S. economy from immigration, aside from the large gains to the immigrants themselves, are small. Realistic estimates suggest that immigration since 1980 has raised the total income of native-born Americans by no more than a fraction of 1 percent.

Second, while immigration may have raised overall income slightly, many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration - especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education than the average U.S. worker, they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans. The most authoritative recent study of this effect, by George Borjas and Lawrence Katz of Harvard, estimates that U.S. high school dropouts would earn as much as 8 percent more if it weren't for Mexican immigration. That's why it's intellectually dishonest to say, as President Bush does, that immigrants do "jobs that Americans will not do." The willingness of Americans to do a job depends on how much that job pays - and the reason some jobs pay too little to attract native-born Americans is competition from poorly paid immigrants.

Finally, modern America is a welfare state, even if our social safety net has more holes in it than it should - and low-skill immigrants threaten to unravel that safety net. Basic decency requires that we provide immigrants, once they're here, with essential health care, education for their children, and more. Unfortunately, low-skill immigrants don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of the benefits they receive.

Worse yet, immigration penalizes governments that act humanely. Immigrants are a much more serious fiscal problem in California than in Texas, which treats the poor and unlucky harshly, regardless of where they were born... Realistically, we'll need to reduce the inflow of low-skill immigrants. Mainly that means better controls on illegal immigration...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/032706O.shtml
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Borjas' study is open to debate
Another prominent immigration economist, David Card from UC Berkeley, has conducted studies of local wage impacts by immigrants and has found that there is no such impact upon US workers. Borjas counters that the effect is a subtle one which can only be detected if you increase the scope of your analysis to the national level. The problem, of course, is that the broader you make your study, the more variables you introduce into the equation. For instance, Congress passes a law giving businesses a tax reward for laying off US workers and opening up businesses overseas and the unemployment rate suddenly spikes. Is that the fault of immigration, or of a particularly irresponsible bit of legislation on Congress' part? GM decides to automate its assembly line and lays off 50,000 workers and the unemployment rate spikes again. Is that the fault of immigration or the greed of a US company? In response to inflationary concerns, the Federal Reserve Bank ups interest rates and businesses suddenly decide it's more advantageous to save money than to spend it on creating new jobs, putting the brakes on economic growth and again the unemployment rate jumps. Is that the fault of immigration or a change in US monetary policy? It's not clear whether Borjas has taken into account such alternative explanations for the wage and unemployment figures he uses.

I honestly don't know, but the reader of Borjas' results should be aware that there is some controversy within the scholarly community regarding his methodology. It should not be considered a conclusive finding.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
48. Spoken like a true cheap labor conservative
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. There are a surprising number of those on this board
Critters...off to watch Lou rant!
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
51. I agree that " Immigrants have shared America's identity" but
illegal immigrants are criminals. The greedy corporations want illegals to come in to drive wages down, they are the slaves of the 21 century.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-27-06 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
57. immigrants are a distraction. They are actually keeping our GNP
Edited on Mon Mar-27-06 07:39 PM by superconnected
higher because of the cheap labor. They are not destorying the middle class. They take jobs the middle class doesn't want and can't afford to live on.

Instead the real people destroying the middle class - greedy corporations and corrupt politicians, are the ones looting america of jobs(to india and china) and assets(taxes), WHILE saying it's the immigrants causing our problems.

I'm amazed there are people here who jump on the rightwing bandwagon. It's calling out hate for the marginalized and blaming them, where ever it goes. What twits, to believe them.

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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Good post
I completely agree with you.

Many people seem intent on blaming the "other", whether it be Indian, Mexican, or other.

Many can't seem to admit, it's their own countrymen that have stabbed them in the back. Rather than instituting reasonably minimum living wages and labor standards, corporations, with the likes of their whores in congress, decided it would make them more money to export jobs or hire people willing to work for wages most would consider substandard.




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megatherium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. Now don't go calling me a twit.
The problem with the "they're taking jobs middle class people won't take" theory is that there are a variety of formerly-middle class jobs that are no longer middle-class jobs -- because of the influx of unskilled labor. Here is one example: the meat-packing industry. They used to pay meat-packing employees a living wage (if 'living' is the right word for that particular line of work); the meat-packing companies used to be unionized. But these unions were broken years ago when Mexicans began to be hired for these jobs. The Mexicans are willing to do this work at the lower wages because it beats anything they can get in Mexico. But these jobs are nasty, and the compensation for disabling injuries is shamefully low. See Eric Schlosser, Fast Food Nation for the grim details. Also see this week's Paul Krugman column in the NY Times.

At any rate, I'm not blaming immigrants. I'm blaming the corporations that knowingly hire illegal immigrants at below (formerly) prevailing wages.

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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #57
70. Immigrants are a distraction, this is an age old tool.
There's a great Simpsons episode about it from 10 years back or so...
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-29-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Yeah. First it was the Germans, the Irish, the Italians, the Poles, etc...
now it's the Mexicans and to a much lesser extent Asians.
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baby_mouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
62. Nothing wrong with that, George, well done, for a change.

Could you have tried something like that stance a few years earlier instead of pandering to freaks? GENUINE compassionate conservatism wouldn't have been what *I* wanted, but it would have worked a lot better than what your country's under ATM.
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judaspriestess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-28-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
63. Illegals don't want to be illegal
Edited on Tue Mar-28-06 11:30 AM by judaspriestess
He has been steadfast on this one.

I agree let these folks have a green card.

Many, many of them already have tax id's, "registering" themselves witht the irs. THEY PAY TAXES and file taxes. I know cause I work with mortgages and see it everyday. I have to turn so many away who have a deep desire to buy a home, who have been here a long time. They just can't go get a green card or they will get deported. This is what keeps most of them "illegal". they have NO CHOICE. and what is up with the cheap labor comments? These folks are making flippin 32.00, 20.00, 15.00, 16.00, 17.00 an hour! Isn't McDonalds cheap labor?
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