Woodward Was Told of Plame More Than Two Years Ago

[stevedeshazer]

by Jim VandeHei and Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, November 16, 2005; Page A01

Washington Post Assistant Managing Editor Bob Woodward testified under oath Monday in the CIA leak case that a senior administration official told him about CIA operative Valerie Plame and her position at the agency nearly a month before her identity was disclosed.

In a more than two-hour deposition, Woodward told Special Counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald that the official casually told him in mid-June 2003 that Plame worked as a CIA analyst on weapons of mass destruction, and that he did not believe the information to be classified or sensitive, according to a statement Woodward released yesterday.

more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501857.html?nav=rss_politics/administration

on edit: statement from Woodward in PDF format: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/plame/woodward.plameCIA.pdf

[stevedeshazer]

1. Key paragraph:

<snip>

Woodward's testimony appears to change key elements in the chronology Fitzgerald laid out in his investigation and announced when indicting Libby three weeks ago. It would make the unnamed official -- not Libby -- the first government employee to disclose Plame's CIA employment to a reporter. It would also make Woodward, who has been publicly critical of the investigation, the first reporter known to have learned about Plame from a government source.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
:wow:

[Wetzelbill]

3. no fucking way!

Woodward is a total shitheel. Oh lord, what an ass.

[crossroads]

298. I second the emotion...lol! n/t

[MADem]

37. Did he get the info when he was gathering material for one of his suckup

books? Volume One, or Volume Two of the Lord of the Dinks trilogy???

TPM says he was PART of the investigation from the beginning....why didn't he tell GWB??? Or his editors???? I KNOW!!!! He wanted all the GOOD WH DIRT for book three, sure to be a salacious bestseller. He writes two suckup books, criticizes the investigation, so the WH thinks, wow, we got ourselves a media LAPDOG!!!! Now, doggone it, he's OUTED. No more juicy material!!! SHUNNED!!!

So the news is out from the Post now -- both in a statement from Bob Woodward and in an article from the Post. The details still seems sketchy and I suspect we're going to find out a lot more in the next few days. But it now seems that Woodward -- who has long been publicly critical of the Fitzgerald investigation -- has been part of it from the beginning. Literally the beginning. From the Post account it appears that Woodward was told of Valerie Plame's identity before any other journalist by an as-yet-unnamed senior administration official who is not Karl Rove or Scooter Libby.

More problematically for Woodward, he didn't tell his own Post editors until last month and then only after the unnamed senior administration official came forward to Fitzgerald and told him about it.... http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

[IndianaGreen]

129. Woodward is Judy Miller with a penis

His previous pooh-poohing of Fitzgerald's investigation is exposed as Administration spin by his having to testify about his own role in the Plame leak.

Was this the guy that exposed Nixon's Watergate crimes?

[tavalon]

142. No, this is the body snatcher version of Woodward

The previous one shared his name but could not be the same person, clearly.

[Hekate]

152. That's how I feel about him: "Who are you and what have you done with...

...the hero of Watergate?"

It's hard to fathom, but maybe Bob Woodward got seduced by becoming too close to power over the past 20 or so years, so that he started to identify with it and to think of himself as an insider.

Investigative reporters by their very natures should maintain an aura of outsiderness -- the overlords are not your friends, and if you think they are, you can't reliably rat them out to the public.

<sigh>

Hekate

[Wetzelbill]

156. he became part of the cocktail circuit

He started becoming insulated just like everybody else. Inside-The-Beltway mindrot. That's why most of these guys from Dan Balz to whomever else all sound the same. They lose the ability to think like a normal person who lives in the real world. Woodward became a victim of that and his own status. He liked being Bob Woodward. He's an icon, invited to all the parties, given WH access etc. Meanwhile guys like Sy Hersch and Greg Palast are in the trenches doing the real shit. Woodward lost it somewhere along the way. Rumor has it Carl Bernstein was the real brains behind the whole outfit in the first place.

[Lerkfish]

186. I was at a cocktail party and met Woodward in '82

My first thought was "what a frickin asshole". I had trouble reconciling the dork in front of me with the perceived muckraking hero.

That was 20 years ago. I assume he only got worse.

[Uncle Joe]

262. I agree, he became one of our modern day courtesans

in the court of King George the insane. Whenever speaking of Watergate, we should refer to them as Bernstein and Woodward for now on, instead of the other way around.

[Judi Lynn]

170. I struggled and struggled to deny what was becoming clear about him

because his earlier work had been so vitally important. There's nothing which would excuse this kind of abrupt, obvious departure from responsibility.

What a damned shame.

[0007]

174. My feelings to a tee. Now I'm convinced I was in denial.

LOL!! Great photo that sez it all!

[RedEarth]

207. What a picture....freaky looking...lol

[npincus]

215. i'm a little slow on the uptake here...

is that a PhotoShop Woodward-Benedict Judy hybrid?

[Uncle Joe]

263. It looks Judy Miller did not have a good night's sleep. n/t

[JoFerret]

188. Woodward is a SPOOK

...remember that.

[goclark]

220. Didn't I read at Du that he was CIA

at one time?


I recall thinking, huum, he sure was able to find out so much from so many.

[Marie26]

260. US Navy intelligence, I think. (before becoming a reporter) n/t

[lovuian]

119. I bet he about died when he was on the stand and

subpoened!!! This is going to be good!!! Fitzgerald is going after these lying reporters!!!

:woohoo:

[lostnfound]

121. What's his security clearance and is he on the payroll?

Further, if Woodward did NOTHING with the information, is it really relevant to Libby's guilt or innocence?

[amandabeech]

144. Reputed to have been in "Naval Intelligence" straight out of Yale

during the Vietnam years. Make of it what you will.

I think that Woodward may be realizing, finally, that he backed the wrong horses at the end of a long, long race. May he pay the price.

[druidity33]

182. did NOTHING...

that was my first thought. In fact, isn't what he did, what you're supposed to do? If someone came to me with potentially classified information, i guess i'd have two choices... tell no one, or go to the source's higher-ups and rat on him. I'm surprised that he didn't use the information! Not that i have any respect left for the man...

[calimary]

302. Welcome to DU!

Visualize IMPEACHMENT!!!!!!!

We have to work harder on this since the GOP noise machine is cranking as loudly as it can.

[pa28]

136. Could Rove be officially back on the hook?

I'm sure he spend his evening pacing, drinking and popping Lunesta. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

[JerseygirlCT]

204. Can someone clarify for me?

I would assume that if divulging the name of a covert agent is a crime, then it doesn't matter if you're the first or the third person to do so. What am I missing there?

Now, I understand that once Novak let it out publicly, I suppose secrecy was already shot. But we're not saying Libby told after that, we're still saying he told before that -- just that someone else also told before that.

To me, this still leads to a concerted, group, directed effort at "outing" her, not a single person in Cheney's office doing so. I think it makes it look worse, not better.

And wasn't Woodward spending all sorts of time in the President's office?

[renate]

the points you are making are excellent

I'll be able to read the rest of this thread with a lot less stress now. Thanks!

[lmarcotty]

223. exactly what I thought as I read the article

That Woodward was also told about Plame by someone in the administration doesn't make Libby's disclosure any LESS culpable - it makes the whole administration MORE culpable. When one guy commits a crime, he's no less guilty because some other jerk commits the same crime.

L-A

[MADem]

236. Libby's problem is similar to Martha's, he LIED to federal investigators

And that is a big Fitzmas no-no!

[eppur_se_muova]

278. it doesn't matter if you're the first or the third person to do so

Quite correct. If a reporter had said to Libby, "I already know Plame is undercover CIA", and he already knew that other reporters had said the same thing (but not it was not publicly known), his obligation under the law is to provide no confirmation...this is one of those situations where "I can neither confirm nor deny that" is a legally and ethically correct answer.

How to get a list of all CIA agents:
1. Pick a name, any name.
2. Say "I know X is a CIA agent."
3. WH official confirms X is CIA.
4. Repeat until list of names is exhausted.

This is so obvious...that's why the law forbids discussion of classified material with those who don't have clearance.

"Hello, CIA."
"Yes, I'd like to speak to Valerie Plame, please."
"I'm sorry, but no one by that name works here."
"It's very urgent that I speak to her."
"I'm sorry, but no one by that name works here."
"Her daughter has been rushed to the hospital. It's very urgent that I speak to Ms. Plame."
"I'm sorry, but no one by that name works here."
"Her daughter needs emergency surgery right away, or she'll be dead within the hour."
"I'm sorry, but no one by that name works here."
"D'OH!"

See how it works?

[trotsky]

281. Precisely, JerseygirlCT.

Great thinking. "Unnamed official" may have told Woodward, and then neither of them told anyone else. THEN Libby told Miller or Novak or whoever. Two crimes.

[PATRICK]

Nice timing

Coordinates pretty well with a Bush team strategy, IMHO.

[PATRICK]

267. Incorrect reaction

This looks like Fitzgerald is continuing to move toward breaking out of the cover-up/pardon strategy. Time will tell. Time not necessarily being on the side of timely justice.

[FranzFerdinand]

2. uh oh

this doesn't bode well for Fitzgerald...

[rooboy]

7. Woodward is a Bush sycophant and a gossip.

And if he's not careful, will end up in the same shit that Libby's in.

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. In what way?

Please explain.

[FranzFerdinand]

12. well

why *wouldn't* Fitzgerald know this information after 2 years and certainly before indicting Libby?

[stillcool]

18. Who says he didn't?

And, what difference does it make? Libby is charged with lying. He lied. What does Woodwards' testimony have to do with the fact that Libby lied?

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. Libby was indicted because he lied to investigators and the Grand Jury

None of this information affects the substance of those indictments in the least bit.

Since Libby was not indicted on the underlying crime - and since this information only appears to shift the location of the underlying crime, it is only marginally relevant. However, Libby could still be indicted for the conspiracy to commit the underlying crime (a conspiracy he continues to further through his obstruction of justice), and this information can help trace out who, exactly, revealed this information first. If it's a question of "Hadley, you mention it offhand to Woodward, Rove, tell Cooper, Libby, bring it up with Judy, etc." then this information actually furthers the evidence of general conspiracy, especially given the timeframe (mid-June).

Fitzgerald will now have to bring the "official" back in for further questioning, to determine how he (or she) got the information.

Fitzgerald was very clear in the Libby indictment: he doesn't have all the information precisely because his investigation has been impeded. To think he is in trouble because he doesn't have all the information is somewhat asinine, in my view. He stated that he had sand thrown in his eyes, after all.

[Wordie]

You're completely right there: shouldn't affect the Libby charges at ALL!

It's just I can't quite figure out how this might affect anything else that's going on. Rove's attorney has immediately issued something saying that his client (Rove) IS NOT the official in question (of course), but then Rove's attorney has seemed to make off-kilter statements before. He may be most interested in saving Rove's fanny right now.

[Marie26]

26. I think he knew

I bet Fitz knew that Libby might not have been the first person to leak this information, that's why he carefully avoided indicting Libby on revealing classified information. He indicted Libby for lying, which he did, and this can be proved whether Libby was the first leaker or not. Honestly, I think this might mean Fitz has Cheney now. This "senior official" tipped off Fitz on Nov. 5 about the Woodward meeting. Why would an official implicate themselves? Woodward obviously wasn't talking. The official must have flipped and agreed to give testimony to Fitz in exchange for avoiding indictment. Why would Fitz agree to this? Because the official can implicate someone even higher up. And who's higher up than a "senior administration official"? Only Cheney.

[Lex]

35. Fitz *said* he hasn't been able to get to all the facts due to the LIES.

Seems like more info is starting to surface.

That's GOOD for Fitz.

[Ronnie]

9. Oh really?

My first thought was it doesn't bode well for the senior administration official.

[Norquist Nemesis]

221. Me too! If this was a "nobody" in the Administration

why didn't they trot him/her out immediately and let the chips fall where they may? Instead, they have lied, covered up, obstructed, and distracted at every turn.

[cantstandbush]

11. Why? It wasn't really made public until they went after her because of

her husband. And who was the high ranking administration official? And does anyone have any transcripts of Woodard as a talking head around the time he found out about Valarie? Was he kind of smearing Wilson's report and statement's then?

[MindMatter]

15. Why do you say that?

Fitzgerald's case is about perjury and obstruction of justice. Libby did all that. This doesn't help Libby at all.

Regarding Fitz, it gives him one more witness to testify against that "Senior WH official" (wink wink nudge nudge).

The only person hurt by this news is that "Senior WH official".

[stevedeshazer]

23. Precisely

And who do you think this senior White House official may be? :)

[Wetzelbill]

157. oh it can only be one of two people

and either one makes me plenty happy. :) :) :) :)

[Uncle Joe]

265. Maybe they had a conference call and it's both.

:)

[DoYouEverWonder]

158. Dick Cheney on June 12, 2003

That was the day the article sited below was published and I'm willing to bet Cheney went ballastic. That was the same day Cheney told Libby who Plame was and Libby set the smear campaign in motion.

CIA rejects blame for Bush's Iraq uranium claim
By Jim Wolf WASHINGTON THU JUN 12, 2003

The CIA rejected any blame on Thursday for the use of a faulty intelligence report by President Bush as he built his case for war against Iraq

A spokesman, Bill Harlow, voiced confidence that "a careful reading" of documents supplied to congressional oversight committees would show the spy agency "did not withhold information from appropriate officials" about Iraq's purported attempt to buy uranium in Niger.

The Central Intelligence Agency , he said, had shared hundreds of pages of material with the panels looking into charges, from lawmakers and others, that the administration and the intelligence community oversold the weapons threat to foster public support for ousting President Saddam Hussein .

The latest challenge to the CIA involved a claim in Bush's State of the Union address that Saddam had been trying to buy "significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

http://web.archive.org/web/20030615195853/http://www.metimes.com/2K3/issue2003-24/reg/cia_rejects_blame.htm

[leveymg]

173. Eleven days later Scooter told Judy. We now know more about what happened

in between. A highly-placed Administration official told Woodward about Plame. The top people talk to each other first - that's the way Washington usually works. Who's over Libby?

I think almost certainly that Fitz will want to talk again to Libby's boss - this time, under oath.

Cheney is going to be charged with obstruction of justice for his previous false statements.

[Tin Man]

208. the breadcrumbs are leading to Cheney's office...

DoYouEverWonder is exactly right... Cheney blew a gasket when, in mid June, the CIA publicly distanced itself from Administration claims. Three weaks later, Ambassador Wilson was publicly debunking the administration's Nigerian yellowcake claims in the pages of the NYTimes. Cheney had heard enough - it was clear to him that certain domains within the CIA had essentially become rogue operations - answering to no one, not even Executive Branch offices. This would not be tolerated...

When Cheney learned that Wilson's wife was CIA, and had participated in some fashion in the selection of Wilson for the Niger mission - well, that was all Cheney needed to hear on the subject - he had "uncovered" one rogue operation within the CIA that he was going to quash. As Cheney understood it, Plame had personally selected Wilson for the mission. From that perspective, the Niger mission looked alot like a nepotistic boondoggle, rather that an honest factfinding mission.

The plan was simple: the VP's office would simply leak the information that Wilson's CIA wife had selected him for the Niger mission. Once the press revealed that the mission had actually been nothing more than a classic government boondoggle, Wilson's yellowcake allegations would be discredited and Plame's rogue department within the CIA would be corraled. Two birds with one leak - now that's efficiency!

And on July 14, Novak printed the leak furnished by the VP's office. Unfortunately for Cheney, in his haste to lauch his counterattack, he had failed to fully research and understand critical elements of the story he was leaking. Foremost among them was the assumption that Wilson's wife was simply a career CIA desk jockey, when in fact, she continued to hold undercover status - necessary to provide continuing protection for classified missions she had conducted in foreign theaters much earlier.

In his zeal, Cheney had screwed up, big time. He had inadverently outed an undercover CIA agent - a criminal offense. Recognizing the potential for repercussions, the VP's office launched the coverup... and now you know the rest of the story.

[leveymg]

222. I think that Cheney's lawyers will ultimately fall back on that defense.

I tend to favor a prosecutorial theory that has Cheney attempting to destroy Plame as an example for all her colleagues at the Agency. This was no accident or crime of passion. The conspirators proceeded to out Plame through cut-outs, which shows it was structured to avoid prosecution under the IIPA.

But, at the bottom of this, I really don't think Cheney cared what laws he was breaking -- frankly, I think he suffers from megalomania, the disease of dictators that is often fatal or otherwise leads to lifelong disability.

[Duncan]

237. Yes

What a concise summary of what it looks like - thanks. However,
I believe there is some documentation that several WH officials WERE aware of Plame's covert status. Sorry I don't have a link. Makes the leaking even more stupid and more of a crime.

[IndianaGreen]

290. The breadcrumbs also lead to Condi Rice

There is a story posted in DU from Rawstory claiming that Condi's deputy at the time, Stephen Hadley, was Woodward's source.

Yep, it's the White House Iraq Group.

[merwin]

25. Why not? Libby is on the stand for perjury, not leaking.

This will only get someone ELSE indicted as well.

[MADem]

46. You'd better read the article

There is no significant effect on the Libby indictment, all this does is turn over a few more rocks, and involve a few more people...people who talked to Woodward (most were very close to W, and one was the Monkey himself):

The testimony, however, does not appear to shed new light on whether Libby is guilty of lying and obstructing justice in the nearly two-year-old probe or provide new insight into the role of senior Bush adviser Karl Rove, who remains under investigation.

[Nordmadr]

193. It seems to me that this does nto change the case as it exists

against Libby at all. However, the article does seem to imply that this may undrmine Fitzgeralds case.

"Woodward's testimony appears to change key elements in the chronology Fitzgerald laid out in his investigation and announced when indicting Libby three weeks ago. It would make the unnamed official -- not Libby -- the first government employee to disclose Plame's CIA employment to a reporter. It would also make Woodward, who has been publicly critical of the investigation, the first reporter known to have learned about Plame from a government source".

Olaf

[MADem]

212. Well, changing the timeline, as he explained it, does not undermine

or obviate the essential features of the case in any way, shape or form. The guy is accused of lying, basically. He got CAUGHT lying.

His lawyers are going to try to spin it as "forgetting" as opposed to lying. Good luck to them and the Boston Braves!!!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

140. How anyone could come to that opinion totally escapes me.

[FranzFerdinand]

209. does it?

does it make you all mad inside? did you slam your monitor off in a huff and storm out of the room?

[Laurab]

230. I don't know about the poster you're asking

but it make me wonder, too. Doesn't make me mad at all, just makes me wonder how one could come to that conclusion.

And what a silly response "does it make you all made inside? did you slam your monitor off in a huff and storm out of the room?"

I guess it depends which side you're on - from where I sit, I think it bodes just fine for Fitzgerald, since obviously a more senior official was passing along the information. Woodward having brains enough not to use it doesn't negate the fact he was TOLD. Someone found out, so unfortunately, he had to testify. Woodward deals with the big guys in the administration. I think it bodes quite well for Fitz, but again, that depends which side you're on....

[papau]

4. The headline makes it sound like "everyone knew" rather than a conspiracy

concocted more than a month before Novak's column.

Wonder if it is just a GOP headline writer letting his bias show - or does it reflect a totally biased full of shit Washington Post management team.

But meanwhile, Fritz may have the VP's nuts in a vice via Woodward's testimony.

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. Who's "Fritz"

German friend of yours?

[papau]

13. Late at night Fitzgerald became - Fritz - man it is time for bed!

:toast:

:-)

[FranzFerdinand]

14. he's that one dude's uncle...

dude said he even LOOKS like uncle fritz. true story...

[okieinpain]

261. well in my little mind, I just keep wondering why tell judy

to say that she heard it from an official that's no longer in government, why did rove tell cooper, "double triple secret" on who the source was.

Woodward seems like he wants to help the bush admin. why wasn't he talking about this during the summer, when he was going around telling folks that the plame case wouldn't amount to anything.

then he starts in with this selective memory shit. one minute he remembers every frickin detail. then the next minute he just can't quite seem to remember. I say bullshit.

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. Very strange wording

Rove tells Fitzgerald that he talked to Woodward about it, then Woodward testifies to Fitzgerald that

a) ROVE did not believe the information to be classified or sensitive

OR

b) WOODWARD did not believe the information to be classified or sensitive

Notice:

Woodward told Special Counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald that the official casually told him in mid-June 2003 that Plame worked as a CIA analyst on weapons of mass destruction, and that he did not believe the information to be classified or sensitive, according to a statement Woodward released yesterday.

He who? The antecedent for this pronoun is ambiguous. You wouldn't get away with this in first-year composition! And this is a huge story in the fucking Washington Post?!? Now, the parallel structure (and the fact that "the official" remains ungendered) indicates that "he" here is Woodward, but this is some slippery shit to be sure...

[marbuc]

17. In the phrase in question

the wording implies he = Woodward, in which case his opinion is irrelevant. It seems to me a case is being made that Rove did not KNOWINGLY reveal the identity of a CIA agent.

Is ignorance a plausible defense in this case? He still committed a crime, regardless of whether he knew her status to be classified.

[grasswire]

133. that's my take

...and if that is so, this may be concocted. More lies to kick more sand.

[donkeyotay]

256. No, they're stretching with "knowingly"

http://www.fas.org/sgp/isoo/sf312.html

Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement
(Standard Form 312)
Briefing Booklet

The third and final requirement for access to classified information is the "need-to-know;" that is, you must have a need to know the information in order to perform your official duties. The holder of classified information to which you seek access is responsible for confirming your identity, your clearance, and your "need-to-know." As a holder of classified information, you are responsible for making these same determinations with respect to any individual to whom you may disclose it.


Question 13: What is the threshold of liability for violating the nondisclosure provisions of the SF 312?

Answer: A party to the SF 312, SF 189 or SF 189-A may be liable for disclosing "classified information" only if he or she knows or reasonably should know that: (a) the marked or unmarked information is classified, or meets the standards for classification and is in the process of a classification determination; and (b) his or her action will result, or reasonably could result in the unauthorized disclosure of that information. In no instance may a party to the SF 312, SF 189 or SF 189-A be liable for violating its nondisclosure provisions by disclosing information when, at the time of the disclosure, there is no basis to suggest, other than pure speculation, that the information is classified or in the process of a classification determination
...
Question 19: If information that a signer of the SF 312 knows to have been classified appears in a public source, for example, in a newspaper article, may the signer assume that the information has been declassified and disseminate it elsewhere?

Answer: No. Information remains classified until it has been officially declassified. Its disclosure in a public source does not declassify the information. Of course, merely quoting the public source in the abstract is not a second unauthorized disclosure. However, before disseminating the information elsewhere or confirming the accuracy of what appears in the public source, the signer of the SF 312 must confirm through an authorized official that the information has, in fact, been declassified. If it has not, further dissemination of the information or confirmation of its accuracy is also an unauthorized disclosure.
end>

I don't think these players can claim there was "no basis" for them to think this material was classified since they were receiving it as insiders and for a purpose. Now, the VP, unfortunately, is presumed to be above harming the country in this manner and does not sign the security nondisclosure agreement. He might wind up being the dead-end for legal responsibility:

snip>
By tradition and practice, United States officials who hold positions prescribed by the Constitution of the United States are deemed to meet the standards of trustworthiness for eligibility for access to classified information. Therefore, the President, the Vice President, Members of Congress, Supreme Court Justices, and other federal judges appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate need not execute the SF 312 as a condition of access to classified information.

[marbuc]

266. I would say Rove should reasonably know this information was classified

or should be fired for incompetence. Which one is it Karl?

[donkeyotay]

277. And, if the president were concerned about the damage being done

to the country, he would put an end to this nonsense. But he doesn't and we must also ask if it is because he is involved or is he just an extremely incompetent CEO President?

We do know, on the other hand, that Pincus is not in the administration , when he said, "Are you kidding? I would have remembered that!"

[niallmac]

21. Thanks for breaking that down.

I knew something was odd about the article but I couldn't figure out what!
Now I know. it's poorly written and dangerously ambiguous.

[marylanddem]

191. From text of Woodward's statement:

"Fitzgerald asked for my impression about the context in which Mrs.
Wilson was mentioned. I testified that the reference seemed to me to be casual and offhand, and that it did not appear to me to be either classified or sensitive. I testified that according to my understanding an analyst in the CIA is not normally an undercover position."

So Woodward is the "he"

[renate]

224. well, of COURSE he's going to say it seemed offhand

Whoever leaked the name isn't going to lean over and say "Hey, Bob, don't tell anyone, but this is classified information. I could get indicted if anyone finds out I told you. Valerie Plame is a covert operative. Shhhh."

[rateyes]

210. You know, there were a lot of stories....

and Novak himself claimed that one of his leaks was not an administration official. Do you see this scenario as plausible: Cheney, Hadley, Rove, or someone else tells Woodward---Woodward leaks to Novak to confirm Libby's statement. Woodward says, "I did not believe that the info was classified," in order to cover his own ass from an Espionage Act charge---according to that act, even if it has been leaked to you as a reporter---if you have classified info whose release can harm national security (another reason for Woodward to claim that it's no big deal), and you share it with unauthorized persons, you are guilty of espionage.

IMHO, it looks like Woodward was up to his eyeballs in this shit---and, he thought he was out of it, until somebody ratted him out. I'll bet Woodward is so damned "tight" with nervousness you couldn't drive a 10-penny nail up his ass.

[Spazito]

217. Remember Miller saying she had been told about Plame from

a source other than Libby but she just couldn't 'remember' who it was? Could it have been Woodward? I wouldn't be surprised.

[rateyes]

247. Me either! Woodward and Miller are swimming in this shit...

and, they're about to drown. I KNOW Woodward didn't volunteer to testify--which means that he might be a target now, and trying to, again, cover his ass---and, Bolton is part of this, too. I still believe that Fitzgerald just might bring down this whole cabal. If we can get Dems in power in just ONE of the two legislative bodies, then we can launch some investigations that really investigate.

[bpilgrim]

6. Cheney

:nuke:

peace

[Marie26]

16. Bob Woodward is an egotistical jerk

This Washington Post does a pretty good job of laying out how Woodward basically deceived his editor & his paper about his involvement in the case - all while he "idependently" attacked Fitzgerald & said this case was not a big deal.

"Woodward never mentioned this contact -- which was at the center of a criminal investigation and a high-stakes First Amendment legal battle between the prosecutor and two news organizations -- to his supervisors until last month. Downie said in an interview yesterday that Woodward told him about the contact to alert him to a possible story. He declined to say whether he was upset that Woodward withheld the information from him."

Woodward has been on a hundred shows saying this was just "gossip," that there was no damage to the CIA (a lie), while never ever even breathing that he received the leak too. He didn't even tell his paper, and still won't reveal info to his editor that isn't even covered by a confidentiality agreement. He's nothing more than a mouthpiece for the Bush Administration, just like Judith Miller. Jeez, is everyone in the press shilling for Bush? How could he self-righteously stand there and mislead the public like that? I thought journalists were supposed to find the truth, not help cover up lies.

edit: to avoid swearing, even though it's a little tough.

[rodeodance]

22. seems like the 'he' is Woodward.

[Marie26]

97. It is Woodword

It's a little clearer in Woodward's own statement. He says that "the reference was off-hand, and it did not appear to me to be secret or classified information." This resolves the ambiguity in the WP story. Woodward didn't think it was classified, he doesn't say anything about whether the source knew it was classified.

[Tinksrival]

53. It's the Bob and Judy Show!

And we are all merely spectators. Who do these people think they are! Aren't reporters working to find the truth to give to the people. Not hide the truth and cover up lies.
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE! Shit this crap really pisses me off!

[Hissyspit]

137. I've been bitching about Woodward having this access to this President*

and this White House and not breaking ONE of the many unprecedented scandals over the past five years - bitching about for the past several years.

Doing nothing but propating the "glorious" mythology about this administration.

I'll curse for you: Woodward is a dickhead.

[Wetzelbill]

159. doesn't that just blow your mind?

Woodward is on all those shows, almost acting condescending about how it wasn't a big deal etc. Meanwhile, Carl Bernstein is saying yes, it is a big deal and has some similarities to Watergate et. al.

Woodward was acting funny to me. I almost couldn't believe a guy like that would dismiss this as nothing. It always seemed odd, imho. It doesn't surprise me that he was involved. Not at all. It does surprise me that he'd have covered his involvement in it for so long. Even Russert never tried to do that.

[BeyondGeography]

19. Walter Pincus says Woodie doesn't have his facts straight

<Woodward's statement said he testified: "I told Walter Pincus, a reporter at The Post, without naming my source, that I understood Wilson's wife worked at the CIA as a WMD analyst."

<Pincus said he does not recall Woodward telling him that. In an interview, Pincus said he cannot imagine he would have forgotten such a conversation around the same time he was writing about Wilson.

<"Are you kidding?" Pincus said. "I certainly would have remembered that.">

Pincus goes on to say Woodward may have confused this account with a later conversation in October of 2003. Strange, given the meticulousness with which Woodward puts together his reporting, don't you think? Maybe he just doesn't want people at the paper to think he sat on key information while they were looking into every nook and cranny of this case. Some NY Times-style internal upheaval is a comin' to the WP.

[MADem]

50. SAT QUESTION

Bob Woodward is to the Washington Post, as Judy Miller is to the:

a) Aspens
b) Sexual Relations with Scooter
c) Missing notebook
d) New York Times

[BeyondGeography]

82. Turns out Judith Miller was just Woodie in drag

Another sad chapter in the decline of the American press.

[grasswire]

134. then Woodward is lying about this...

...in order to cover for Bush. It isn't a crime if they didn't know it was secret.

[Norquist Nemesis]

225. Then why is the WH not naming the official? n/t

[wildeyed]

178. I thought that was interesting, too.

Pincus is basically accusing Woodward of lying.

[Wordie]

24. Jeez! What does this mean for the investigation?? Could Woodward be lying?

How could he have sat on this all this time?
Here is more:
<snip>
Mark Corallo, a spokesman for Rove, said that Rove is not the unnamed official who told Woodward about Plame and that he did not discuss Plame with Woodward.

William Jeffress Jr., one of Libby's lawyers, said yesterday that Woodward's testimony undermines Fitzgerald's public claims about his client and raises questions about what else the prosecutor may not know. Libby has said he learned Plame's identity from NBC journalist Tim Russert.<unsnip>

Could the admin have gotten Woodward to go along? Woodward has been contemptuous of the investigation.

This just seems really strange. What the hell is going on?

[Carolab]

28. That's what I think. They are using Woodward to discredit Fitz.

I wouldn't put it past any of them.

But who is the "unnamed administration official" if not Rove or Libby? Is it not Mister X?

This smells.

[Marie26]

32. Does this discredit Fitz?

He never alleged that Libby violated the Intelligence Act, or that he was the original leaker, just that Libby lied to the grand jury. This new "unnamed official" talked to Woodward in June 2003, at the same time that Libby was revealing the same info to Judith Miller. This reeks of a conspiracy. Libby & "unnamed" must have been present when an agreement was made to reveal this name. Once Fitzgerald proves a conspiracy was present between Libby, "unnamed", & maybe others to reveal Plame's identity, he can indict the whole lot on criminal conspiracy! Criminal conspiracy to violate the Espionage Act. This would also explain why Fitz held off on actual Espionage indictments against Libby - he wanted to have enough to indict all the players as part of a conspiracy. :bounce: I think this is good news!

[Carolab]

44. That's true about Libby

I guess this stuff about "Fitz not having enough information" makes him look like he is operating in the blind somehow and going after "the wrong guy" here. One of Libby's lawyers comes right out and asks:

"If what Woodward says is so, will Mr. Fitzgerald now say he was wrong to say on TV that Scooter Libby was the first official to give this information to a reporter?" Jeffress said last night. "The second question I would have is: Why did Mr. Fitzgerald indict Mr. Libby before fully investigating what other reporters knew about Wilson's wife?"

But, OTOH, as you point out, Fitz only went after Libby for covering up, not for outing Plame. No doubt his game plan was to try to squeeze the truth out of someone else, in that Libby would try to get off the hook. So who is the unnamed official? Are the WH and Woodward setting someone else up? Or was Woodward just pointing in someone else's direction instead of Libby's as the source to reporters?

Seems like the burglar tattletale has now become one of the burglars himself.

[Inland]

179. I agree.

I must be missing the entire point about how this testimony, assuming for a second it was actually given, changes anything.

[Lex]

38. SOMEone is feeding Fitz new info. SOMEone ratted on Woodward.

And said Woodward was told too.

[MADem]

238. Hell, it could be BUSH that ratted, to save himself

Maybe he gives up Cheney and crew in exchange for no indictment (Cheney told me to tell Woodward, heh, heh, ya see...but he didn't tell me that little blondie over at CIA was covert, heh, heh, ya see....).

He becomes an "unindicted co-conspirator." And maybe an UNNAMED one, too, with his name and role kept under seal.....

[Uncle Joe]

271. You mean, like a deep throat, kind of ironic isn't it? n/t

[Rageneau]

282. I betcha it was Scooter who gave up Woodward.

I hope so, cause I hope Fitz is putting the squeeze on these fascists. If so, we may one day get the actual truth about all this -- once the GOP is out of power and can't obstruct justice any more.

[LizW]

45. Yes. And check out this from the NYT:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1927375

Libby's defense team is going to use other journalists besides those named already to make his case that "everyone knew".

That's Woodward's purpose in all this.

[Lex]

49. "Everyone knew" because the White House told them

is not exactly the kind of "everyone knew" defense that will work.

[Marie26]

66. Hello, Andrea Mitchell?

There's one other reporter who has been claiming that "everybody knew" Plame's identity, while never admitting to getting a leak from the Bush administration. Andrea Mitchell. She also has high-ranking sources in Washington, & recently tried to back away from the "everyone knew" statement. I wouldn't be surprised if we find out that she was leaked Plame's identity in June 2003 as well.

[MADem]

63. Well, "everyone knew" and "I forgot" appear to be the two standard

bearers of the Libby defense. I'll be surprised if it flies, frankly. They'll have to get a lot of reporters to "characterize" and I don't think they'll do it, as Fitz WILL put people in jail...

[lovuian]

120. This ain't going to help and only show the Propoganda Machine

and its a big one folks!!!

Operation Mockingbird and how it works!!!

[henslee]

189. They all knew... reminds me of "but everybody did it, ma"... or even

more relevant, "you dems voted for the war too".

[Wordie]

52. It may be eau de Rove you're smelling. His atty says it wasn't him, but

that atty. has been working like crazy ever since the indictments were announced to try to help his boy keep his job. So, just because the atty. said it wasn't Rove, doesn't mean it wasn't.

And as I think about this further, it looks more like it MAY have been Rove. After all, it really sounded like he was going to be indicted along with Libby, but that there was some last minute deal that got him off the hook (at least temporarily). Wouldn't that make it very likely that Rove has been doing LOTS of talking to Fitz just lately?

[Marie26]

70. Yeah, but

Rove didn't start leaking until July, right? He confirmed Plame's identity to Novak on July 12ish, then proceeded to spread the info to Matthew Cooper & Chris Matthews. It seems like Rove almost got involved by accident, after a reporter called him. If he knew or had been told to reveal this info in June, wouldn't he have called Novak & others then? But he didn't, he only confirmed & spread it later. The fact that this official revealed the info in June makes me think that it couldn't have been Rove.

[MO_Dem]

72. I'm thinking Rove, too

Remember, a day or so before the indictment was read, there was a rumor going around that Woodward had a blockbuster article coming out the next day? I remember Woodward being on Larry King Live, I believe the night before the indictment of Libby, and someone asked him about his big revelation that was coming out the next day, and he acted all surprised and said he didn't have an article coming out. I'm thinking that whatever it was that Rove presented to Fitzgerald at the last minute that gave Fitz "pause" must have had something to do with this new Woodward revelation.

[ncanadianlee]

300. Leaker

Colin Powell

[MADem]

58. Woodward wanted to stay in the good graces of the WH, so his

third and last book on the Monkey would be a real best-selling POTBOILER, unlike the first two lukewarm efforts. This paragraph is instructive:
Woodward, who is preparing a third book on the Bush administration, has called Fitzgerald "a junkyard-dog prosecutor" who turns over every rock looking for evidence. The night before Fitzgerald announced Libby's indictment, Woodward said he did not see evidence of criminal intent or of a substantial crime behind the leak.

So, he runs around dissing Fitz, and he gets even BETTER access than he did for the last two suckup books. And nowadays, access would be VERY interesting--the Monkey is falling apart!

[CityDem]

139. Why would Woodward risk a perjury and obstruction charge

He is not going to sit in some jail next to Scooter. The biggest problem with this revelation is that it blows up Fitz's time line and claims that Libby was the first person to leak Plames classified identity to the press. Also, it bolsters Libby's claim that reporters knew about Plame's identity. Also, if Woodward and Pincus cannot recall who told who what, how can Libby be held responsible for his memory lapses.

[MADem]

242. Libby is NOT being accused of leaking. He is being accused of lying.

The timeline is not critical to the investigation. He LIED TO FEDERAL PROSECUTORS. He told them things that were untrue. He said, among other things, that he did not meet with Judy before July...but OOPS, she signed into the EOB on 23 June to see him--uh, oh!!! Her 23 Jun notes have Valerie Flame and Wilson's wife all over them.

His defense is that he did not lie, he "forgot." Oh, and everyone was doing it, so that makes it, uh, OK...see, since EVERYONE was doing it, no WONDER he forgot!!

That's where it seems to be going...!!!

[greiner3]

286. I'm tired

Just wake me when it's time for the executions!:P

[anitar1]

150. I think Woodward is a liar. He is also a hound for

any kind of publicity. Something is seriously wrong with that POS.

[loudsue]

27. I hope Fitzgerald lynches Woodward for trying to make up a new

drama to put in his latest book. I smell a skunk. Woodward is trying to do the bush cabal's laundry for them, and has probably set up a nice arrangement with some "government official" who will help get Scooter off the hot seat, and make it look like "well, EVERYBODY knew about Wilson's wife".... which is EXACTLY how the right wing has been trying to spin this from the beginning.

FUCKING BASTARDS!!! I hope Fitz lynches them all.

:kick::kick::kick:

[Justitia]

47. Woodward is playing a VERY dangerous game. He'll pay for that, too.

On background, I think Woodward absolutely couldn't stand being on the sidelines on this one - his fucking ego is enormous.

I also believe that Woodward is seriously fabricating certain elements, with some truth thrown in here and there to lend credibility.

He is carrying serious water for someone who knows how to stroke him masterfully (see the ego comment above).

Difference is, unlike his Watergate glory days, he is playing with fire regarding his own involvement because he certainly can be charged with participating in crimes, not just reporting on them. Self-aggrandizement prevents him from seeing that clearly.

Yes, there is a bigger fish to fry in the background, but Woodward just screwed the pooch in an effort to muddy the water.

It's gonna take serious work to untangle these lying assholes and I believe they will be made to pay for making Fitzgerald's job that much more difficult.

Woodward certainly has it coming.

[leftchick]

155. obstruction of justice?

I would love to see woodward go to jail. He could write prison romances from there. He is sort of pretty isn't he? ;)

[Tinksrival]

29. Oh Snap!!

WHAT A LYING WEASEL! Woodward sucks the GOP big time! :mad:

There is a link to a pdf statement from Woodward on TPM. His memory is just as bad as Judys. How can they call themselves reporters?


http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

[amandabeech]

147. Woodward may suck the GOP big time, but what is his definition

of the GOP? Ford/Poppy/Powell/Scowcroft or Cheney/Rummy/Wolfowitz/Perle? Or put another way, Goss/Negroponte or the Old Hands?

[Duer 157099]

30. Does everyone here think it's Rove?

And the denial is just like Scotty saying Rove wasn't involved?

What if there is another Sr. Admin Offish involved?

Is Woodward getting senile? His story doesn't make sense, although it does give Libby the ability to claim that reporters did know and that maybe he just confused Woodward with Russert?

What a tangled web we weave... poor Fitz has to untangle it all and get his fingers all sticky.

[stevedeshazer]

31. It has to be Rove or Cheney

Who else could it be?

[MADem]

75. The BIG KAHUNA??? BUSH HIMSELF?

Woodward got INCREDIBLE access for those first two books....maybe we need to LOOK UP....LOOOOOOOK UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stevedeshazer]

96. I read his book, it was fawning re: *Bushie

I chalked it up at the time that he was a toady in order to gain access.

Was he a MOLE?

[MADem]

99. Maybe just a greedy pig

Write two suckup books, sell 'em to the GOP and make "enough"...and then write a third scandalous book that has Monkey swinging from the chandeliers, talking to the portraits, getting drunk and yelling at the help...he'd make a FORTUNE!!! But ya gotta toady, and toady GOOD, to get that kind of access....

[Wetzelbill]

162. Pure ego

Woodward does what he does to get access and fluff his rep. If he has to suck up a little then he has to suck up. This administration is brutal to anybody who sneezes the wrong way in their direction. Woodward likes his status too much to ruffle these guy's feathers, so he kisses enough ass to get a few books out of it and do Leno and Letteman etc.

[hang a left]

145. You know that makes sense.

Woodward said that the leaker didn't mention her name. Maybe monkeyboy didn't know it at that time.

[cmd]

177. That was my first thought

The two of them are mighty cozy.

[goclark]

231. I think it was Bush that told him

because Rove told Bush to tell him.

That would cause Woodward to feel that he really should go nice on Chimp in his "best seller."

Sometimes I wonder if the Chimp is the one that will take the fall in the end.

I think the NeoCons realize that his days are numbered and they want to make those days real short.

Do you think that could be any part of it?

[MADem]

235. You have to wonder why Fitz PERSONALLY VISITED the Monkey's

PERSONAL ATTORNEY right before he indicted Libby. The media said it was to say Rove was out of the woods, for now, but hey...you could tell him that OVER THE PHONE. And none of them were in the room when Fitz met with Sharp.

I think he told Sharp that Monkey could be in a legal quagmire, and that he'd better start planning his defense.

Professional courtesy, sure...and maybe Fitz's way of knocking a few more rocks loose....

And right now, the game is afoot. Cheney ain't talking to the Monkey, and the Monkey ain't talking to Big Dick.

Divide and conquer!

[lostnfound]

124. Colin Powell, Bush, Condi? nt

[ncanadianlee]

304. Rove or Libby

Nope, Colin Powell
:hide:

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. Nope...not Rove

The official went to Fitz and told him to look up Bob Woodward. Rove's lawyer wouldn't make such a definitive declaration if it was Rove. That would be stupid, since everybody in Fitz's office knows who the official is. Definitely not Rove. My money's on Hadley.

[Marie26]

36. Hadley - also known as "Cheney's eyes at the NSC"

If it's Hadley, we have Cheney two most trusted advisors both revealing Plame's identity at the same time. That is an absolutely huge coincidence unless they were doing it under Cheney's orders. It seems like everything leads back to him.

[shugah]

33. woodward's ego is just too large

as far as i can tell watergate was his bright and shining moment. has he ever achieved anything else of note? i think he is trying to trivialize fitz and the importance of this story because he wants to be the only one who ever "brought a president down." i think his ego demands that he be the only one who has a real story.

plus, he's been such a patsy for such a long time now. i think he really believes that he's "a part of it" because everyone in washington fears and respects him. haha! talk about living in past glory!

[janx]

39. Which official?

Who told him this and why?

[Lex]

40. I say Scooter or Rove. Both are trying to work deals right now.

And are singing for their supper.

[janx]

41. This is sick.

And I'm betting on "Scooter," which is also sick.

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. Read the article

It's not Libby

[Lex]

48. Yep. I see the sentence now.

"It would make the unnamed official -- not Libby -- the first government employee to disclose Plame's CIA employment to a reporter."

So it's probably Rove. Or Cheney.

[alcibiades_mystery]

55. It's not Rove, and I doubt it's Cheney

It's not Rove, because Rove's lawyer wouldn't be so stupid as to publically deny it when it was the official who provided Fitzgerald with the information. I doubt it's Cheney, who would fain approach a "bug" like Fitzgerald under any non-mandatory circumstances.

[stevedeshazer]

56. Who, then? n/t

[Marie26]

59. But could it be a Cheney minion? n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. I vote for Hadley

Just sayin...

[Marie26]

71. Me too. n/t

[lala_rawraw]

284. And you would be correct

[Marie26]

288. Woo-hoo! Do I win a prize?

:7

[lala_rawraw]

294. Well my dear Watson, there are 3 people mentioned

As having been in the room, according to Woodward and Kurtz...if you can establish all three, not relying on the Kurtz apology piece, you will get a prize... what prize do you want that reasonable?

[stevedeshazer]

42. Naysayers: Why would the Washington Post hang Woodward out to dry?

He knew and he JUST NOW TOLD HIS BOSSES?

The dates are very important. Joe Wilson didn't write is now-famous op-ed until July 6, 2003. This is 2-3 weeks BEFORE that.

WHY and HOW did this happen in JUNE 2003??

[Marie26]

54. Maybe the same reason the NY Times did

They realized one of their reporters was pursuing his own agenda, to the detriment of his responsibilities to the paper. He didn't tell his own editor about this conversation - at the same time that the paper is digging for any scoop about the Plame case. He apparantly lied about telling another reporter this info. He STILL won't cooperate to tell editors more information, even though it's not confidential. June 2003 is very significant - this is when Libby talked to Miller, this is when Cheney told Libby about Valerie Plame. In the indictment, almost all the sharing of this info from the CIA to Cheney occured in May/June. The smear campaign from Cheney's office started in June, way before Wilson's piece was ever published. But Rove only got involved in July, after hearing it from Robert Novak. The June timing of this leak points to someone else in the VP's office, in my opinion.

[stevedeshazer]

60. Maybe this means that the Post will bust their star ass't managing editor?

The WP loses credibility with Woodward in the same way Judy Miller hurt the NY Times? Maybe. Hmmm.

[Marie26]

74. Wouldn't that be something?

This whole case might touch off an identity crisis in the American press. And about time.

[ClintonTyree]

153. This might support Libby's claim that...

"everyone knew about it". Well, HOW did "everyone know about it"? Because the people in the White House were TELLING everyone about it! It isn't like this was informations passed through the grapevine, it had a very real and purposeful genesis and that was so the White House could smear Plame's name along with Wilson's.
I still think Plame was on to something about the MWD lies and was trying to get someone to blow the whistle on the bushies. Why are they even discussing Plame and her association with the CIA before Joe Wilson wrote his article?
I think this goes much deeper than we're aware of, the outing of Plame was the bushistas plan even before Wilson blew the whistle on them. Was she getting a little too close to something? Something that would blow the bushies out of the water if she were to continue with her CIA duties? :shrug:
This whole fucking thing stinks to high heaven and smell originates within the White House. This is going to dig bush's hole even deeper n the long run.
They're fucking with Fitz again, and I somehow get the impression that Fitz is a man that doesn't like to be fucked with by criminals.

[Marie26]

259. My theory?

I think they were behind the forged Niger document. This explains why they start panicking when Wilson starts to say it wasn't true; and when they learn his wife is a CIA agent, they start REALLY panicking. They're thinking Valerie Wilson is onto them, maybe the whole CIA is getting on to them, and they have to discredit her as fast as they can. There were a lot of war critics, but you don't see this same blind panic to destroy, say, Jeanne Garafalo. Only the Wilsons.

Evidence:
- The Niger forgery was made from letterhead & stationary stolen from the Niger embassy in Italy. Rove made his name as a political operative when he stole the letterhead & stationary of an early opponent to give out fake invitations on Skid Row for the opponent's rally.

- Karl Rove's ONLY foreign policy adviser is Micheal Leeden, a known facist, who has stong connections in Italy with the SIMSI, the Italian intelligence agency. The SIMSI is involved in forging the document, and definitely passed it on to the US.
Leeden was also involved in Iran-Contra & is your go-to guy for shady deals.

- The head of SIMSI, Pollari, met with Stephen Hadley on Sept. 9, 2002. Shortly thereafter, the forgery surfaces. Hadley was the one who ensured this document got into Bush's State of the Union speech. Hadley is also mentioned as possibly being Woodward's & Novak's original source. Hadley is a Cheney minion, along w/Scooter Libby.

- Bush never admits he's wrong, yet they quickly retracted the "16 words" from the State of the Union & said it shouldn't have been included. Why admit this? Because they're trying to neutralize the issue and prevent further investigation of how Bush got this.

I think they completely bypassed the CIA, NSC, etc. to get this document straight to the President. They needed a "smoking gun" to show a nuclear threat from Iraq, and of course, there wasn't any. So they get creative. Cheney wants nuclear evidence. Rove or Cheney asks Leeden if he can come up w/any "proof" of Iraq seeking nuclear weapons, by which he means false documents. Leeden obliges, and through some cloak-and-dagger work w/the SIMSI in Italy, they're able to create the forgeries. SIMSI then heads straight to DC to pass it on to Hadley, and the Vice-President's office. They know it's fake, but they don't care. They use it anyway - in briefings to Congress to convince them to go to war, in the State of the Union, in the "mushroom cloud" theme they kept repeating. Cheney finally has the evidence he needs to start a war.

They're smug, until they hear in June 2003 that Wilson is now criticizing the document, that he's been to Niger, & has first-hand information. That his wife is a CIA expert in nuclear proliferation. These two are in the perfect position to expose Cheney's role in the forgery, and maybe they know already. So Cheney & his minions discuss it & think the best way to neutralize this threat is exposing Valerie Plame - that will hopefully stop both of them from investigating this further. (Bringing this back on topic) So they go to their favorite neo-con reporters - Woodward, Novak, Miller - to help them smear the Wilsons. It was a coordinated effort - between the VP's office & maybe Rove. It was a criminal conspiracy to commit espionage, forge evidence, and mislead Americans into a war. If that isn't an impeachable offense, I don't know what is.

(I wonder if maybe this magnum opus should be re-posted somewhere else? It's pretty off-topic...)

[alcibiades_mystery]

62. But all this was going on in mid-June 2003

Cheney told Libby in mid-June. Libby spoke with Russert, Cooper, and Miller in mid-June. Seems like Novak was the last to know, and probably the slimiest of the bunch (if one can even distinguish between slime at such magnitudes). None of this changes anything. If anything, it heightens the charge of conspiracy. These assholes were running around blowing the cover of a covert officer to any newsperson who would listen. That all the newspeople were told makes it no less a leak, despite the laughable assertions of Libby's defense team. Yeah, a bunch of journalists knew classified information, but they knew because you fucking scumbags TOLD them! It's the telling, see, that's against the law...

[LizW]

64. Woodward SAYS he knew then.

He SAYS he told Pincus, but Pincus says that's bs.

Isn't it funny that the supposed source suddenly releases Woodward to talk? Isn't it funny that Woodward says he didn't think the information was classified?

Libby claimed he heard the info from journalists (thinking no journalist would ever testify). But when the journalists testified and it turns out they all say under oath that they didn't tell him, he's SOL. INDICTED!!!!

But, lo and behold, here's ANOTHER journalist who knew about Plame very early on. And it's not just any pipsqueak journalist. It's Bob Freaking Woodward of the Washington Post and Watergate fame. AND NOTICE THAT WOODWARD SPECIFICALLY SAYS HE DIDN'T FIND OUT FROM ROVE OR LIBBY.

This is all about crafting a defense for Libby.

Watch the Republican talking points tomorrow.

[alcibiades_mystery]

73. Two hitches there

1) Libby is indicted for specific lies about specific conversations. Fitzgerald only need prove those lies, and that seems fairly easy given the evidence.

2) This introduces a new actor into the mix (the "unnamed official") who will now have to account for his or her own involvement, and, more specifically, from whom he or she acquired this information and under what pretext. These are not trivial questions in the state of things.

So, would somebody put their ass on the line in order to supply information that seems of little value in Libby's actual legal defense. I doubt it. Libby's trial does not turn on whether "everybody knew" - but on whether he said X to Cooper, Miller, and Russert or Y. Woodward's involvement is not relevant on that point. It is relevant, however, in demonstrating a larger conspiracy, now that a new party has been added to the mix.

[LizW]

94. Libby will just say, "I was mistaken"

He already has said this. He'll say, "I talk to so many journalists. I thought it was Russert or Cooper, but I was wrong, it was Woodward."

Woodward even says in his statement that he faxed documents to the WH with questions that mentioned "Joe Wilson's wife". Woodward's statement is very cleverly crafted to promote the possibility that he asked Libby something about Wilson's wife. He never outright confirms or denies it.

They're just going for a reasonable doubt.

The "unnamed official" may not even exist. Woodward says he has a written waiver from this person, but does he really? Fitzgerald can't demand to see it. This is another trip to court to force Woodward to give up this source's name. This person will not have to account for his/her own involvement so long as Woodward does not have to tell who he/she is.

I hope I'm wrong. I really, really hope I'm wrong, because if I'm right, these people have absolutely no respect for the law or the Constitution, or the security of this nation.

[tavalon]

146. Even if you are wrong,

these people have absolutely no respect for the law or the Constitution, or the security of this nation.

[Caretha]

181. Your wrong

You bet your bottom dollar that the Prosecutor and the grand jury can demand to see any paper they damn well want. You also say "This is another trip to court to force Woodward to give up this source's name. This person will not have to account for his/her own involvement so long as Woodward does not have to tell who he/she is."

Tell that to Judy Miller - she just spent 85 days behind bars to protect her source. What makes you think that Fitzgerald has any problem putting another reporter behind bars who thinks they don't have to give up their source. BTW, Woodward gets it - and he's sung like a canary to Fitz.

[alcibiades_mystery]

187. You don't read very carefully, do you?

It was the unnamed official who turned Fitzgerald on to Woodward. Would be strange if said "unnamed official" didn't exist!

[LizW]

198. Well, excuse me all to hell.

Check the time of my post before you jump my shit. Yes, I posted last night when this first broke. Please forgive me for commenting before I did a line-by-line analysis of the article. Sheesh.

:eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

232. You're forgiven

Be more careful next time.

[missouri dem 2]

123. Yep. It is another clue for Fitzgerald. This

"unnamed official" must have come forward to play lets make a deal. Who will they give up in order to make a deal? Looks like cheyney to me.

[stevedeshazer]

76. Why would Woodward do this?

What's his motivation?

Money? Ego? Is he bought and paid for? Do they have incriminating photographs of him?

Why does Bob Woodward want to protect Scooter, if this is what's happening?

Man, this just raises more questions than it answers, doesn't it?

[LizW]

84. Woodward's protecting the sources that have made him very rich.

He has an unusual level of access to the powers that be, and he wants to keep it that way. This administration has never made it any secret that they cut off anyone who doesn't play their game.

[marylanddem]

196. Access to the kennel

means you wake up with fleas, and possibly covered with dogshit.

[rateyes]

253. Woodward is protecting himself....

he is, IMHO, now a TARGET of the investigation...withholding information, sharing classified information (Espionage Act)--wanna bet that Woodward talked with Novak? He's saying "this is no big deal" and "I didn't know it was classified" in order to try and deflect an indictment. Just guessing, though.

[Marie26]

116. He also fricking lied to the grand jury

Woodward writes "I testified that after the mid-June 2003 interview, I told Walter Pincus... that I understood Wilson's wife worked for the CIA as an analyst. Pincus does not recall that I passed this info on." :rofl:

This isn't about crafting a defense for Libby, this is about the Administration coming apart at the seams. The official & Woodward revealed this info, not to cover Libby, but to cover themselves and prevent being indicted. It looks like Libby told prosecutors that Woodward also knew of Plame's identity, leading Fitz to trace it back to Woodward's source - now they both have to come clean. Fitz now has a TON more info that he can use to persuade other officials to flip. This is giving me a whole lot of hope.

[lostnfound]

126. Wonder if a rift between Pincus & Woodward will serve us

How fascinating if so. Pincus is known as the CIA guy at the WP. Woodward is clearly tied to the White House. Have the front lines of this battle just landed into the lap of the WP?

[amandabeech]

149. Yup, the WP is in the middle of it, as is the NYT.

This will play itself out in an ugly, ugly manner until the Dems get control of the gov, and even then, the mess will be extremely difficult to clean up.

In the meantime, the WP and NYT have lost or will now lose any shred of credibility that they have accumulated. The Pentagon Papers and Deep Throat were a long, long time ago.

It is interesting that the latest "bush is nuts" story came out of the Moonie Times sister publication, "Insight."

[Marie26]

264. Isn't that weird?

Yeah, Walter Pincus was actually part of the CIA's Operation Mockingbird to spread propaganda back in the 60's (before it was abolished). Woodward was once Naval Intelligence with the Pentagon in the '60s; which is where the neocon/Cheney cabal is now. And it looks like they're facing off just as CIA and Cheney are facing off. But I wonder who's lying, Woodward or Pincus? Why would Woodward finger Pincus, of all people, as someone he told this too? Is he trying to bring down Pincus too - sic Fitzgerald on him & make him also testify under oath. What does this mean?

[lostnfound]

276. your guess is as good as mine

Why Pincus? Some possibilities
A) perhaps it's true and he didn't want to perjure himself
B) perhaps Pincus has a security clearance and therefore disclosing it wouldn't be a crime
C) perhaps he thinks Pincus is untouchable (on the side of the CIA)

[npincus]

211. Won't help Libby on obstruction of justice charges

Libby told big, whipping fibs to FBI and to the Grand Jury under oath. Thems the facts.

[Marie26]

295. Pincus, is that you?

Can you give us the inside scoop at the Washington Post? :silly:

[npincus]

303. tee hee

no Walters in my family tree- just a lot of nuts!

[notadmblnd]

98. I think WHIG was doing research on the Wilsons in June

they had to break up the unit Valerie Plame was working for to keep hidden the fact that admin officials were involved in illegal sales of WMDs.

They used Joe Wilson so they could out Ms Plame.

[lostnfound]

128. Are you thinking of the Sibel Edmonds interviews?

You've just written what has been one of my paranoid suspicions for a while. It's a deep, deep hell if that's the case.

But the recent DU thread discussing the possibility that Brewster-Jennings had discovered (or were investigating) attempts at a shipment of serin into Iraq (to plant evidence of WMDs) gave me pause. It had a certain, uh, truthiness about it. ;-)

[notadmblnd]

169. no, I was talking about when the White House group

first assembled. A few weeks ago there were threads here. It was either just before or just after Libby's indictment. I'll look for the link later when I have time. But I'm sure this is what I was reading.

on edit see post #141

here's a link that sort of covers what I'm talking about

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1873596

[notadmblnd]

183. here's a better link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=5074699

from what I'm reading in this thread my time frame for when WHIG began gathering info on wilson is much earlier than June 2003.


neither one of the links is the one I was was talking about in my first post to this thread and I'm continuing to search for the one that nails it.. but these two are close.

[JoFerret]

194. That scenario makes good sense - wild though it is

Yes they wanted to slime Wilson but it was Plame whose work was getting too close to the truth of who was making the profits and who had lied to the nation about the WMD.

[Garbo 2004]

141. wilson had been speaking out long before. As early as March 2003 he

suggested on CNN the Bush Administration wasn't being honest when it said it was fooled by the Niger forgeries. That the administration previously had info to indicate the Niger yellocake story was bogus.

On May 6 Kristof of the NYT ran a story about an unnamed former Am. Ambassador who went to Niger and determined the Niger yellocake story was bogus. Pincus of the WaPo followed up with another story about the unnamed ambassador's trip to Niger around June 12.

Wilson was in their sights for some time. Recall that the State Dept memo on Niger yellowcake and State's and CIA's determinations (including Wilson and his wife's involvement) that the claims weren't credible was commissioned in May and supposedly done in final dated June 10.

The Administration was planning its hit on Wilson/Plame long before Wilson's op ed on July 6. (In fact, Wilson said in his book that an Administration official, after Condi's June 8 appearance on MTP I think it was, suggested he go public in his own name, something he was reluctant to do but eventually did. This was around perhaps June 10. I figure they were planning a hit and maybe helped to set him up to go public.) Libby told Judy Miller about Wilson's wife on June 23.

It's long been wondered who the "6th journalist" was who was told by administration officials about Plame. Looks like it's Woodward, that slimy SOB.

[DoYouEverWonder]

161. On June 12th, 2003 the CIA came out

and rejected any blame on Thursday for the use of a faulty intelligence report by President Bush as he built his case for war against Iraq.

That was the day Cheney told Libby about Plame.

(see my post above for the link)

[ColonelTom]

219. Why and how? Wilson wasn't the target

Because this wasn't about discrediting a political enemy (Wilson). He just happened to be standing in the road when the cavalry rolled through. It was about discrediting, once silencing had failed, an entire "faction" of the CIA that knew the war rationale was garbage and wasn't about to roll over and go to sleep at the Administration's command.

[brindis_desala]

283. Bingo!

[stevedeshazer]

51. Transcribed from Woodward's statement:

'I testified that on June 27, 2003I met with Libby at 5:10 p.m. in his office adjacent to the White House. I took the 18-page list of questions with the page 5 reference to "yellowcake" to this interview and I believe I also had the other question list from June 20, which had the "Joe Wilson's wife" reference.'

[madrchsod]

57. why did`t woodie come forward with this

alot earlier in the investigation? withholding information that is relevant to a case of this magnitude? who is he covering for and why? this does`t screw up fitz case but probably open more doors. it took one indictment in chicago and so far he has over 60 in just one case. they underestimated fitzgerald, i don`t think anyone thought he would touch them..they started to realize what he can do when he started to dismantle the former republican govenor and the democratic mayor of chicago and the democratic govenor...

[Lex]

61. I agree. This expands Fitz's case, doesn't screw it up.

nt

[stevedeshazer]

67. That's what I don't get

Why is Woodward doing this now? What does he have to gain? It seems he has a lot more at risk here.

We're not getting all the dots here. Incomplete picture. Need more information. :crazy:

[Lex]

77. Woodward is doing this now because Fitz called him

after "an official" told Fitz that Woodward was told info about Plame.

Woodward's not stepping forward on his own on this.

[stevedeshazer]

81. Yeah, I agree, but why did Fitz just call out Woodward now after months?

Something else is up, these pieces don't fit. Must be new information?

:shrug:

[Lex]

83. The article says Fitz got this information about Woodward on Nov. 3

From the article:

"Fitzgerald interviewed Woodward about the previously undisclosed conversation after the official alerted the prosecutor to it on Nov. 3 -- one week after Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, was indicted in the investigation."

[stevedeshazer]

88. That's my point...

HOW did he get it on November 3...from WHOM? That's what I wanna know! :)

[goclark]

257. So did Libby out Woody to save his own neck a bite?

I don't trust that Woodward one bit.

I never believed his Deep Tjhroat person outing last year.

I 'll always believe that Poppy was part of Deep Throat and the other "source" was Woodward with the help of the CIA buddies.

[alcibiades_mystery]

86. Um, read the article

The official gave this information to Fitzgerald.

I also expect that Fitzgerald has Libby's faxed copy of the questions, mentioned in Woodward's statement.

[Marie26]

87. Looks like

Maybe the Libby indictment encouraged others to "remember" leaking the info to journalists. I wonder if the Libby indictment was really just a big stick Fitz could use to make other officials tell the truth - no one else wants to face five indictments for lying to Fitzgerald.

[Wetzelbill]

163. somebody rat Woodward out?

New info like that could mean somebody is ratting others out. To save their own necks or something like that. Has to be new info I would think.

[rateyes]

248. Steve, I believe Woodward is now a target

of the investigation. Espionage Act. That's why he's saying this is "no big deal." And, I bet that perhaps NOVAK gave him up. Pure speculation.

On edit: Don't you know that a lot of the "watergate" boys in this administration would LOVE to see Woodward go down. "Play with us Bob, cause if we go down, we're taking you with us." Just a thought.

[stevedeshazer]

299. I agree that Woodward is now in Fitz's sights

Woodward screwed up big time. His previous statements about, as you aptly put it, this is "no big deal", are blowing up. His credibility is GONE now in light of his sucking up to the Bushies in writing his two bigass-selling books on them.

I'm not so sure that Novak is the giver-upper, though. Speculation, as you say....

As to whether this is payback from the Watergate fellas in bringing down Woodward, that is certainly a plausible explanation. Thirty-two years is a long time to be pissed off, and maybe Woodward is playing rope-a-dope, but an elephant never forgets. :)

[MADem]

78. I think his bosses said WTF? when he went on TV and started dissing Fitz

and all the while, the WAPO is trying to dig up info....while Woodward is poo-pooing the whole thing. Huge cognitive dissonance going on there, so his bosses said, time for a sit down, Bobbie, you got some 'splainin' to do. And likely, WAPO has a source inside the investigation that told them what Woodie failed to mention.

[marylanddem]

199. I think you give the Post too much credit

They have been cheerleading the Iraq invasion from the get-go.
I am guessing Saint Woodward, onetime intelligence officer himself, has tremendous influence over their editorial stances.

[MADem]

227. No, it isn't a question of credit. It did take them forever to get off

their asses and do some reporting, but just as they were ramping up, their boy Woodward suddenly starts tossing turds in the punch. I'm sure they wondered why, and probably sat his ass down and asked him what his game was. And I'll bet they had a fact or two that ole Woodie had "forgotten" to tell them about.

I mean, really, WHY would Woodward come clean NOW? He had not been honest with his bosses up to that point. They caught him out, I suspect, and confronted him.

Edit/grammar

[Marie26]

80. Maybe he didn't have a choice

It looks like Woodward kept quiet, confident that his source would never reveal the conversation either. But then his source rats him out and tells Fitzgerald about their conversation. Now Woodward's got no choice, he's got to tell Fitzgerald, his editor & the public the truth or be indicted himself for perjury.

[Lex]

85. I think so too.

The article says:

"Fitzgerald interviewed Woodward about the previously undisclosed conversation after the official alerted the prosecutor to it on Nov. 3 -- one week after Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, was indicted in the investigation."

[Marie26]

89. Fitzmas comes at last?

And this means that Libby is now cooperating w/the prosecutors. Fitzgerald is going to get a lot more information now that the "sand" has been removed from his eyes. I think Cheney might be done.

[Caretha]

185. I believe you are exactly right

This seems to be Fitzgerald's MO. I've thought from the get go Libby's not going to go down alone and that he knows its to his benefit to help the prosecutors on this case - He's looking at 30 years here folks. What would you do?

[Kierkegaard]

228. I'm sure Libby doesn't want to do ANY time, but

he isn't facing anywhere near 30 years. The maximum sentence would only apply under heinous circumstances, for a habitual offender, maybe. With a good attorney and facing charges as a first time offender, you're talking months, not years.

[Wetzelbill]

164. yes, definitely that's what I think nt

[MADem]

245. That is why I think it is Bush who might have played let's make a deal

...in exchange for no testimony under oath, no indictment, or an indictment that remains under seal...and he stays in the background, a mysterious, unnamed "unindicted co-conspirator."

He can get away with it by saying "Cheney TOLD me to tell Woodward about Plame. He did NOT tell me she was covert! I NEVER woulda done that, had I known!!!"

You know who knows? Bush's personal attorney, SHARP. The guy Fitz visited right before he indicted Libby.

Bush isn't speaking to anyone, save Condi, Bar, Karen Hughes, Harriet Miers, and Laura. He thinks all the menfolk are out to get him...and he may be right!

[rateyes]

254. He was subpoenaed...

and, if he didn't cooperate, he was going to jail on a contempt charge, IMHO. He had no choice.

[Justitia]

68. probably because he just thought it up. Seriously, his credibility on

this matter is in grave doubt.

I'm sure he's all too happy to get in on all the political intrigue, I'm sure he did get himself in some dirty business with some shady characters,

BUT

he is trying to be Judy Miller's understudy over at the WaPo while doing favors for some friends in the administration.

Just like Judy, he is overestimating his own importance and is interfering with a federal investigation in the process.

I hope he gets his ass kicked for it.

[stevedeshazer]

79. Maybe you're right, but the risk seems too large relative to the reward

Dude has a huge ego, but why put it all on the line now? Ostensibly, he's admitting that he screwed up, but why did he take so long to admit it, why did Fitz just call him in this Monday, and what led to it?

This is very strange.

[Justitia]

91. See, I don't think he is "admitting he screwed up", he wants to get in

on the action and make some big politico indebted to him in the process.

He has a warped view of where this case is going.
He has delusions of grandeur, hoping to inflate this into some spy thriller starring Bob himself, centered around the issue of the 1st amendment.

High Drama!

He is still living in the days of "All The President's Men" and thinks this will be fabulous fodder for the book he is working on.

He had to become part of the story somehow.

He's gambling on how much trouble he can stay out of, and what his new powerful friends might do for him in return.

[stevedeshazer]

93. If his motivation is that simple,

he deserves an ass-kicking. :)

[Justitia]

95. I concur, my friend!

:)

[marylanddem]

200. Yep, I think you've nailed Saint Woodward's ego nt

[speedoo]

90. Can Woodward be charged with obstruction?

Sure sounds like he obstructed the investigation.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

69. Boxes within boxes,

An enigma! :think:

:eyes:

[stevedeshazer]

92. Must sleep. Please keep kicked. Back soon.

[eleny]

100. kick

:kick:

[TacticalPeek]

101. Woodward Was Told of Plame More Than Two Years Ago

Woodward Was Told of Plame More Than Two Years Ago

By Jim VandeHei and Carol D. Leonnig
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, November 16, 2005; Page A01

Washington Post Assistant Managing Editor Bob Woodward testified under oath Monday in the CIA leak case that a senior administration official told him about CIA operative Valerie Plame and her position at the agency nearly a month before her identity was disclosed.

In a more than two-hour deposition, Woodward told Special Counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald that the official casually told him in mid-June 2003 that Plame worked as a CIA analyst on weapons of mass destruction, and that he did not believe the information to be classified or sensitive, according to a statement Woodward released yesterday.

Fitzgerald interviewed Woodward about the previously undisclosed conversation after the official alerted the prosecutor to it on Nov. 3 -- one week after Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, was indicted in the investigation.

Citing a confidentiality agreement in which the source freed Woodward to testify but would not allow him to discuss their conversations publicly, Woodward and Post editors refused to disclose the official's name or provide crucial details about the testimony. Woodward did not share the information with Washington Post Executive Editor Leonard Downie Jr. until last month, and the only Post reporter whom Woodward said he remembers telling in the summer of 2003 does not recall the conversation taking place.

more
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/15/AR2005111501857.html?nav=rss_politics/administration



Fucking asshole.

[CAG]

102. No wonder he was trying to minimize the impact of Fitz's investigation

on CNN right after the indictments were announced.

Of course, this news will get him on to Tweetys and Russerts shows again to spin it some more.

[TacticalPeek]

104. Bob Judith Woodward.

The Washington Post should fire his ass, and shame the NYT for letting Judith Chalabi resign.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

111. Bob Judith Woodward.

'Nuff said.

[Marie26]

117. And both Tweety and Russert are also involved!

They can all spin together, like a cluster of aspens turning...

[0007]

175. Yes, he'll spin both ways at the same time and finally disappear

as Novak did.

[Me.]

103. What A Lying Sack Of...

Well you get the picture.

[Julius Civitatus]

105. Woodward is an embarrassment to journalism

How badly he has fallen from his former glory days.

[Fovea]

106. So was the official

Cheney, Bush**, or Bolton?

[Bumblebee]

125. Ari, I think.

[Lex]

107. Somebody (Rove? Scooter?) is still talking to Fitz & giving fresh info

to Fitz.

That's good. Real good.

[Lex]

109. Nevermind. The article says it's not Scooter LIbby.

nt

[TacticalPeek]

108. He must be in legal jeopardy, I would surmise from his silence.

"He would not answer any questions, including those not governed by his confidentiality agreement with sources."


I hope he trembles whenever he thinks of Fitzgerald.

[Gman]

110. So this is what it has come to?

One of two men that almost single handedly brought down Nixxon, who at the time was the most corrupt president in history, has now sold out and is willing to lie to save the ass of the now most corrupt president in history.

[Justitia]

112. Yup, nailed it. His EGO is his biggest stumbling block.

Woodward is tripping all over his inflated view of himself and his vanity will be his undoing.

He may have been a hungry reporter back in the cloak and dagger days of Watergate, but now he is fucking around w/a federal investigation due to self-aggrandizement.

He should pay dearly for that.

[Zan_of_Texas]

113. Well, get out your tin hat and try this on for size.

What if Woodward and/or Judith Miller are getting paid by entities NOT known publically. As in, government, or CIA plants?

Look at the short list of pundits already exposed for being on the government payroll this year.... it's not impossible.

Armstrong Williams, paid $240,000 to promote the Admin's Education stuff. Maggie Gallagher -- the Department of Health and Human Services paid her to support the Bush administration's "healthy marriage" initiative. The third exposed contract was with Michael McManus.

But, who knows, maybe these two have been long-term hires.....

[MADem]

114. Woodward was USN intel, long time back n/t

[marylanddem]

201. That should tell you somethin about the man. nt

[dalaigh lllama]

115. Hope Fitz takes "Deep Throat's" advice

and follows the money...
Why would an 'official' tell Fitz about a conversation with Woodward a week after the Libby indictments? If it's because Fitz put the squeeze on the unknown official, that's great. If the official just moseyed on in to Fitz's office with a casual, "Oh, by the way, did you know..." then there's dirty doin's going on, and Woodward's sold the rest of his soul for filthy lucre.
But optimistically -- Fitz didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, I'm guessing he's right on it.

[Spoon]

122. This is getting ridiculous.

So the new standard is that a journalist must come forward, and provide immediately, any and all information he/she may have pertaining to an investigation?

After this is over, no one will ever speak to a reporter again, and that is quite sad. I just can't believe some of the posts I'm reading.

Woodward wasn't the one who freakin published Plame's name, that would be Novak who had no common sense! Stop demonizing the man who took down Nixon.

[Bumblebee]

127. Gimme a break. You are actually defending Woodward who went on all

talkshows to tell us -- as if he had nothing to do with it and was being objective -- how this whole investigation was meaningless. With this big cynical smirk? He is an utter rat, and a disgrace to his profession. How can you even claim that he is a real reporter whose confidences should be somehow protected?!

[Spoon]

180. Who are you to make the "real reporter" distinction?

If I have the dish regarding corruption in my local government, for example, why on earth would I risk the welfare of myself and my family exposing such corruption, knowing that the reporter could easily get pulled in front of "the man" and made to tell all. The average Joe doesn't have access to the "real reporter" database that you apparently have access to.

This is a dangerous precident, and one that does not bode well for our country. I for one cannot believe some of you are allowing partisan politics to destroy the last remnents of press freedom in this country.

[Laurab]

239. Partisan politics?

press freedom? This has to do with a crime - a very SERIOUS crime that endangered people's lives. How many, we'll never know for sure. It was done intentionally by senior officials in the WH, and, if you've read any of Woodward's books, he's very much a partisan. It has NOTHING to do with press freedom, it has to do with TREASON.

If Woodward knew anything at all, it was his duty as an American citizen, and a reporter, to tell the investigator what he knew about this CRIME. And pretending to not know it was classified is ludicrous. CIA and WMD are all he would have needed to know, and I'm quite sure Woodward would have investigated further. He's quite bright. He knew.

What would bode well for our country is if reporters would stop engaging in partisan politics and start REPORTING. Woodward is a partisan political reporter, and what he does does not bode well for press freedom OR this country.

[WinkyDink]

279. Maybe because exposing a crime is the ethical thing to do?

Maybe because Bushco's treason and lies have led to umpteen deaths?

Maybe because knowledge of who committed a crime, being made a party to it, and not telling the authorities =
ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT - Whoever, knowing that an offense has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact; one who knowing a felony to have been committed by another, receives, relieves, comforts, or assists the felon in order to hinder the felon's apprehension, trial, or punishment. U.S.C. 18


It's YOUR posts I can't believe.

[marylanddem]

203. The Washington Post published Novak's column

probably with Bob's blessing.

[lostnfound]

130. Actually..

"Some people suspect" that Woodward was on the inside even back then, perhaps a Mockingbird being used by factions at the CIA to bring down Nixon.

Partnering with Bernstein a legitimate and honest journalist.

[amandabeech]

171. That's my take on it.

Nixon had to go. Woodward had been and may still be part of the team. He's been living off it ever since.


I wonder how much Bernstein knew or suspected.

[Gman]

176. Makes sense

and wasn't Poppy head of the CIA back then? Makes all the sense in the world especially in light of the fact that the CIA is in this public war with Bush right now. Poppy doesn't have the influence in the CIA right now that he once had.

Then I think about Brent Scrowcroft and Poppy's mildly slapping remarks at Jr, plus the reports that W is now at odds with his family and that they barely talk now and I wonder what the hell is really going on.

[PRETZEL]

202. I agree there is a public war going on but,

I tend to disagree with the degree of influence the old man has. Personally I think you're seeing much more of a public fued than you think. It's quite possible you're seeing an intense family fued going on between the old man and the son.

What could very well be happening is the old guard CIA who were around at the time the old man was head of the CIA (and I'm thinking somewhat specifically of Ray McGovern) versus the neo-cons of the Reagan Era. It seems to me that the neocon's have been given a new lease on life with this administration as opposed to the globalist views of the Bush Sr. faction. It's also my opinion that the feud between father and son also reflect this globalist vs. imperialist political viewpoints. It's my opinion that Bush Sr. feels that the policies being espoused by his son and his administration very much go against the grain of his own world views and Bush Sr. knows he still has the power and wherewithall to still make a difference.

[Gman]

216. Sounds like what you say is much more plausible

After giving more thought to who the players are, I think it's likely that this had been an ongoing thing between the old guard Bush Sr. people versus the neocons that came to a head when Plame was outed. Of course, there also has to be people in the CIA aligned with neither side who actually do have a good sense of right and wrong and that feel that cooking intelligence to justify going to war is just plain wrong and that they're involved in this war too.

This is probably very frustrating for Bush Sr. because he knows Jr. is not real swift on policy to begin with, but now he acts like he knows everything being under the influence of the neocons. Of course Jr. takes it all personally and instead of trying to strike a balance between his dad's and dad's allies' beliefs and the neocons's beliefs, he just caves to the neocons as they're around him the most. He then gets pissed at dad and family and probably feels betrayed. In a nutshell, he's being the spoiled brat that he is.

Oh, yeah. I think there is a very intense family feud going on right now. It started during the run up to the war. I was personally very surprised to hear Brent Scrowcroft and General Schwartzkopf (sp?) come out so strongly against war in Iraq before the war started. It was said at the time that Scrowcroft was acting as a proxy for Sr. because Sr. would never come out directly opposed to anything Jr. does.

[JDPriestly]

218. Fitzgerald visit to Bush's lawyer

On what day was Fitzgerald reported to have visited Bush's lawyer? It was a little less than a week after the indictment of Libby, wasn't it?

Could Bush be the source for this information?

Also, does Woodward refer to the information about Plame as gossip because he was spreading it like gossip? Was he the person who carried the information to other reporters and made it "common knowledge" by the time Novak's column was printed? He has carried a lot of other water for the Bush administration. Was he used to spread this story?

Remember, journalists broker, i.e., buy and sell information. Woodward is an extremely successful broker of information. He trades it for access for friendship and for information he wants. With whom did he trade the Plame information? Was he Novak's source directly or indirectly? Was he the first to know about Plame?

It does not surprise me that he was unaware that the information was classified. Most likely, the person who gave it to him was so high up that nothing was classified from that person. There are only a few such people in our government. This is getting very interesting.

The plot thickens. It appears that the leak was either the product of a very effective conspiracy or the result of carelessness on the part of an extremely highly placed official who should have known better and who obviously cannot be trusted.

[dave29]

118. and Woodward told Novak

Duh

This is payback for Watergate

[freethought]

131. Valerie Plame was NOT an analyst!!

This absolutely infurtiates me. She bore the acronum "N.O.C."(No Official Cover) if she went into a foreign country she was going in "naked" as it has sometimes been described. No dimplomatic immunity to protect her. Had she been caught Joe Wilson would never see her again.

[Wetzelbill]

165. she was the real deal, an agent

an analyst does more academic type work. She was doing some seriously dangerous work. So you are right on.

[Historic NY]

132. Fitz the bloodhound is on the case............

he is putting the squeeze on and rolling over others involved. Woodward obviously got himself in a perjury trap, hence the new subpoena. The investigation continues. It will be interesting to see who Woodward flipped in.

[Punkingal]

135. Look at this interesting tidbit....

"...three officials released him to testify...."


"It is unclear what prompted Woodward's original unnamed source to alert Fitzgerald to the mid-June 2003 mention of Plame to Woodward. Once he did, Fitzgerald sought Woodward's testimony, and three officials released him to testify about conversations he had with them. Downie, Woodward and a Post lawyer declined to discuss why the official may have stepped forward this month."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10057145/page/2/

Seems like there was a whole crew of people at the White House talking about this with Woodward!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

143. That's because Woodward has been tied to the far rightwing...

...since his college days at Yale. Woodward was a member of the Naval ROTC and a member of a secret society just a notch below the status of Skull & Bones. Yale was considered to be a prime recruiting ground for U. S. intelligence agencies, and Woodward's additional tickets made him a strong target for recruitment.

While an officer in the Navy, he was on a fast-track for promotions with his last assignment as a briefing officer in the Pentagon. Some researchers contend that Woodward was part of Naval Intelligence, a role he may not have left when he officially left the Navy.

When Woodward left the Navy, he spent a year at a local journal nespaper outside Washington, D. C., and was only at the post for six months when he began to break the Watergate story. How does a journalist with a year-and-a-half of related work experience manage to develop the kind of sources Woodward had during Watergate?

[Lena inRI]

184. Veeeery interesting. . .makes Woodward STINK. . .

to high heaven. . .knowing now how "MOLES" exist everywhere to "control" the process, Woodward has been braking, not breaking, the truth ever since Watergate???

The mother of all Machiavellians.

Revolting. Sic' em Fitz. :grr:

[tgnyc]

138. So, was Judy fucking Bobby and Scooter?

[AuntiBush]

148. Strange 2-Sided Coin...

Either he's a moll "or" a sellout. Wondering which side, though.

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Punkingal]

154. I remember the days of Nixon, too...

And they were not worse than Bush. Nixon didn't lie us into war. He didn't cause the death of thousands like Bush has. I never thought there could be anyone worse than Nixon, but there is.

[leftchick]

160. you are confused

Nixon was no where near as evil as the cabal of neocons we have in charge today! Are you kidding me? Nixon looks like preschool compared to this bunch. And we are talking NATIONAL SECURITY here not a break in.

A better authority on this would be John Dean and his book Worse Than Watergate.

oh and the egomaniac woodward is Fucking Dickhead!

[Wetzelbill]

166. Sy Hersch may have invented it when he broke My Lai

Carl Bernstein was the driving force behind the the Watergate story. This WH has down stuff that would make Nixon blush. They aren't as tough as Nixon was politically, but they are brazen and shameless.

[TheGunslinger]

168. "democratic hero"????

:eyes:

[TheGunslinger]

167. Nice to see Woodward onboard with the other M$M * whores

"When the story comes out, I'm quite confident we're going to find out that it started kind of as gossip, as chatter," he told CNN's Larry King.

Woodward also said in interviews this summer and fall that the damage done by Plame's name being revealed in the media was "quite minimal."

"When I think all of the facts come out in this case, it's going to be laughable because the consequences are not that great," he told National Public Radio this summer.

what a Re:puke:

[marylanddem]

206. These are not a journalist's comments...

This is not a journalist talking - this is someone who is trying to use his now-badly-damaged credibility to dampen the investigation. Wow.

[OETKB]

172. Coincidence?

Let's see, Mr. Woodward spends hours and hours interviewing Mr. Bush and other "insiders" and he receives this information about "Plame Wilson."

Could it be Mr. Fitzgerald has the big Kahuna in his sights, namely, the POTUS. He seems to be slowly moving up the food chain with each little leak that comes out.

As the rats abandon ship the traps seem to be set out. Time will tell, but there are too many "coincidences" as the same name and places show up.

[sunnystarr]

246. Your post made think that maybe

this is about factions - The Bush faction, the Cheney faction, and the CIA faction ... kinda like the Sunni's, Kurds, and Shia's.

The CIA faction calls for an investigation on the Plame leak after being raped by Bush/Cheney (especially Cheney) to sell a war.

The Cheney faction gets indicted (Libby) with roads leading to Cheney. The Bush faction (Rove) stalls an indictment.

While the Bush/Cheney factions had been working hand in hand, The Fitz investigation has them scrambling to protect their own turf.

So someone from the Cheney faction whispers in Fitz's ear to throw the spotlight to the Bush faction. If Bush goes down, Cheney will get the prize and the neocon agenda will be restored and free to move on with their agenda.

And like the Shias and Kurds, the Bush/Cheney factions will stay united to neutralize the CIA faction.

[Marie26]

272. This could explain why Fitz

only indicted Libby, not Rove. He's setting up the Bush/Cheney factions against each other; instead of them working together as they would if both were indicted. Smart!

[Marie26]

273. double posting - Not smart!

[sunnystarr]

293. Double posting?? I only posted once.

Am I missing something?

[Marie26]

296. Oh, no. I double posted. n/t

[EuroObserver]

289. This looks right.

Except there will be at least 2 CIA factions also?

[NoSunWithoutShadow]

190. MWO - Whore of the Year 2002

[BlueManDude]

205. Lifetime Achievement Award

you'd think he'd inform the audience on larry king live (where he appeared commenting on the cia case many times) that he was involved in it.

[kath]

249. very kewl - where'd you find that pic?

And do you remember who got whore of the year for 2003? was it Russert?

[NoSunWithoutShadow]

280. Saved it as a jpg file from MWO. They went out to pasture in mid

2003, so I don't think there was a whore of the year in 2003. Sure do miss that site.

[flamingpie2500]

192. The official who alerted Fitzgerald about this previously unmentioned

conversation could be Libby. Libby could be dealing.
THE ASPENS ARE TURNING.

[Jim__]

195. When did Cheney tell Libby about Plame?

The problem that I see is based on these paragraphs:

Woodward said he also testified that he met with Libby on June 27, 2003, and discussed Iraq policy as part of his research for a book on President Bush's march to war. He said he does not believe Libby said anything about Plame.

He also told Fitzgerald that it is possible he asked Libby about Plame or her husband, former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV. He based that testimony on an 18-page list of questions he planned to ask Libby in an interview that included the phrases "yellowcake" and "Joe Wilson's wife." Woodward said in his statement, however, that "I had no recollection" of mentioning the pair to Libby. He also said that his original government source did not mention Plame by name, referring to her only as "Wilson's wife."

When do we know Cheney told Libby? Was it before June 27? If not, this raises some issues as to whether Libby first heard about Plame. was it from Cheney or Woodward? If it could have been - could have been - from Woodward - then Libby can claim his statement about Russert was merely a confusion about reporters.

[MadisonProgressive]

197. All this does is help his case for conspiracy

Now we have at least 3 different 'high ranking administration officials' feeding this information to national journalists. It seems to me that this new info gives Fitz (or Fritz if you prefer) much more reason to continue his investigation.

[Joe Chi Minh]

213. Seedy and louche though they be,

it seems very disloyal and snidy of Woodward to describe the denizens of his milieu as "a junkyard". It's as if he were saying, "Careful with that stone! you don't know what slime might ooze from under it". Who does he think he is? If he mixes with such types, he must expect to be sullied and degraded by his dealings with them.

[Hardrada]

275. Yes, but Jesus associated with tax collectors and ladies

whose virtue wasn't the highest. No really it is true that "By their fruits, ye shall know them" and the Bushco people will be best judged for these. And soon I hope. Christ will put them among the sheep and the goats.

[Joe Chi Minh]

285. I was being ironical, Hardrada.

Woodward was disparaging Mr Fitzgerald (or rather, seeking to), but with that moral blindness peculiar to the Neocons, it did not occur to him that he was actually identifying the moral turpitude of the activities of theirs that Mr Fizgerald was investigating, and he was complaining somewhat bitterly that light was being shone in such dark places.

[Nimrod2005]

214. I agree with the many obsevations here, that

We don't know all the pieces ---- We will learn more.

Most important, this shows that Fitz is hard at work still, which is a great thing.

Th truth will come out sooner or later.

[Jacobin]

226. Neo con rat bitch

Okay, then WHO told him?

Why won't the Post report that?

Nevermind, we already know. They are manufacturing excuses to keep fellow neo cons out of jail.

[goforit]

229. What an ASSHOLE!!!!.....and A TREASONIST!!!...(excuse language)

I'm pissed off!!!

Woodward has always supported the BUSH administration since the
early sixties!!!!

I swear on a stack of bibles that GHW Bush was DEEP THROAT!!!

And Woodward was used by GHWB to out NIXON(not that I liked the guy)!!

Woodward has always worked for the Bush gangsters!!

And is now stepping forward with no proof of his personal evidence
on Plamegate!!!

This is bullcrap!!!
And he is an accomplice to this henious crime!!!
He never once stepped forward prior to the proceedings and
now he was told confidentially!!!

HEY WOODWARD!!!....Why don't ya come out and tell us who the real
DEEP THROAT was while your at it!!!

Am I pissed?????.......YES I am!!!!!

Can you belives this statement???...

<"When the story comes out, I'm quite confident we're going to find out that it started kind of as gossip, as chatter," he told CNN's Larry King.

Woodward also said in interviews this summer and fall that the damage done by Plame's name being revealed in the media was "quite minimal."

"When I think all of the facts come out in this case, it's going to be laughable because the consequences are not that great," he told National Public Radio this summer.">

[baal]

233. Say guys and gals, Woodward has always been a hero to me

and the way he has always 'told truth to power' is inspiring. Didja ever think, just for a moment, that he 's just telling the truth again with no political motive either way? The thing that makes me mad is that the Repugnantcans are going to see it as a vindication, which is not the case at all. Libby, Rove, The Shrub are still guilty of impeding a federal investigation, regardless of who told Woodward what.

[MADem]

240. No

Woodward got a good story as a young man, and RAN with it. And not without help, either. He would have done anything to get off the shitty metro beat.

It's all about BOB. It has always been thus.

[Joe Chi Minh]

243. No. You can't have heard his parroting of palpably false

Neocon talking points, otherwise you'd have been in no doubt that your admiration was wholly misplaced.

When one such point was put to Bernstein, he almost laughed out loud. I mean he had to stifle his laughter, it was such palpable nonsense. But it tickled him to bits. He's certainly saw their propaganda for the grotesquely infantile nonsense it was.

[Selteri]

244. Not after him stating that the Plame Damage is "Minimal"

It only outted an undercover agent, her contacts and anyone else who used the same faux business as their cover. Minimal damage my butt.

[kath]

250. "truth to power" - BAH - he's had his head so far up Chimpy's ass the past

few years that it's disgusting.

[confludemocrat]

234. Yet more evidence of the PERVERSE relationship of the Press and Power

Sick, sad shit, that makes you weep for the nation and reconsider the meaning and proper valuation we put on our "shining city on a hill" narrative.

For me not belonging to either category there are two major things I am wary of: powerful white males ("insiders") like Woodward and so many others and their accommodater white females like Judith Miller. Not all, I am saying, but of that type: people with a voice who despite that voice use it to harm us, accommodate and cater to raw ugly destructive power, when they are among the privileged few who could use it for GOOD.

:puke:

[Selteri]

241. Not in this link, his associate stated specifically - They don't remember

That conversation happening. Does this meed Woodward is now Purgering himself for a new REpublican Shill to make up for the last one in some wierd reason.

Edited to Add Quote

--=-=-=-==--==---=-=-=-=---=

Pincus said he does not recall Woodward telling him that. In an interview, Pincus said he cannot imagine he would have forgotten such a conversation around the same time he was writing about Wilson.

"Are you kidding?" Pincus said. "I certainly would have remembered that."

Pincus said Woodward may be confused about the timing and the exact nature of the conversation. He said he remembers Woodward making a vague mention to him in October 2003. That month, Pincus had written a story explaining how an administration source had contacted him about Wilson. He recalled Woodward telling him that Pincus was not the only person who had been contacted.

Pincus and fellow Post reporter Glenn Kessler have been questioned in the investigation.

[lovuian]

251. Woodward when does a reporter not do his homework and

can't remember ...vaguely remember.. look at the words this testimony is not holding up

its too many loop holes
ITS TOO LATE (after all information the dark horse arrives with NEW INFORMATION) but his notes and tapes are all after the facts have come out...

Woodward's testimony because he waited so long to come forward is irrelevant... testimony before the indictment is the real stuff!!!

Sorry Bob your too late to rescue them...

but your not AMERICAN your pathetic and everything stand for is
LIES LIES LIES your life just went in the toilet... your pathetic

Its a sad day!!!

[Mr_Spock]

252. Wow! No wonder he was so evasive and pooh-poohed the investigation...

This son-of-a-bitch was giving interviews and making this seem like less than it was, ALL THE WHILE HE WAS INVOLVED IN IT UP TO HIS EARS!!

Woodward must go to jail now. This is unforgivable.

[twaddler01]

255. This doesn't go well for the * administration

does it? This only proves that more people are involved then first glimpse might show! :toast:

[wookie294]

258. This news proves Fitz uncovered new evidence

Why would a White House official volunteer new information (Woodward) to Fitz? The only reason would be to counter new incriminating evidence discovered by Fitz.

And I think the "official" is Cheney or Bush.

[Seedersandleechers]

268. Do we know for sure if it was the first time Fitz has talked to BW?

[wookie294]

269. Woodward said it was the first time

He said: "It was the first time in 35 years as a reporter that I have been asked to provide information to a grand jury."

[williesgirl]

270. Woodward didn't go before the Grand Jury on Monday. He was deposed in

Wilmer Cutler's office per the article. This fact makes me think Fitzgerald isn't after Woodward as a target at all - just wanted his confirmation of the info he got on 11/3.

[Duer 157099]

274. So what do we know now?

1) Not only is the investigation ongoing, it has intensified -- Fitz tried hard to give the impression that he was in the wrapping-up phase, and perhaps that was true when he said it. But now the heat is back on. That's good.

2) It remains uncertain whether a 3rd Sr. Admin. Offish (SAO, pronounced "sow") is involved or whether the source was Libby or Rove whom we already know to be involved. It appears that a 3rd is indeed involved, if the WP story is to be believed and if one carefully parses the wording (many posts above point this out).

3) On the surface, this story gives the impression of validating (one of) Libby's stories, that he first heard about Plame from a reporter, and that it was info circulating around the reporter-mill. It may well be that Libby misspoke when he named Russert instead of Woodward. Not that I believe for a minute that the info was first received by Libby from the press, but that the alibi was set up and Libby mis-fired. The question is: why was Libby so confident in this alibi? Perhaps he indeed heard about Plame from Woodward (albeit after he already knew it from Cheney), or, perhaps the 3rd SAO told Libby that he (3rd SAO) had already told Woodward and that it was now circulating around the press. Or, perhaps Libby is the one who instructed 3rd SAO to tell Woodward. All depends on who the 3rd SAO is. But in any case, Libby was confident that it was a plausible story to tell Fitz that he heard about Plame from the press.

(Libby's indictment mess is of his own creation, as Fitz made clear -- none of this has any impact on that)

4) The story gives the impression that this new SAO "came forward" of his own volition, perhaps because a note, journal entry, email, whatever, was found documenting the details, or at least jogged the SAO's memory. It's not clear whether there was incentive for this info to have been found (ie, Fitz was getting read to question this SAO and he needed to make sure he didn't end up getting Libbied) or whether the discovery/memory was spontaneous.

The curious recurring thread in this story is forgetfulness and "no, you didn't say that to me" -- Pincus sounds just like how Russert sounded doesn't he?

I can't wait for new tidbits to come out. Quite a puzzle to put together.

[Carolab]

287. Bob Woodward: The REAL Lessons of Watergate

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/060205.html

[freedomburn]

292. Woodward is as co-opted as they come. This story is more proof of that.

n/t

[benburch]

291. BZZZT! We Disrupt This Thread For An Important Announcement!

[stevedeshazer]

297. This may well be THE most important post in this thread!

Amazing!! :)

[California Griz]

301. I want to know how Woodward knew

the damage was minimal. The damage assessment report done on the outing of Plame was also a classified document. The way I see it this is just more evidence that a conspiracy has taken place. This means that less than a week after getting the CIA fax marked as classifed someone was leaking this info to the press.