Police Kill Suspect Who Fatally Shot Police Dog("Ranger," in line of duty)

[DeepModem Mom]

It's my understanding that a canine "officer," on duty, is considered an officer like any other.


LAT: Long Beach Police Kill Suspect Who Fatally Shot Police Dog
From a Times Staff Writer
A paroled armed robber who shot and killed a police dog died in a hail of police gunfire in Long Beach this morning.


"Ranger"


The suspect, identified only as a known street gang member with a long criminal history, had fired a gun at officers during a foot pursuit before the final confrontation, Long Beach police said today....

***

The 4-year old dog had been on the force for two years.

"Ranger was doing exactly what he was trained for," (police spokesman Sgt. David) Cannan said. "As close as we get to these dogs, they have a primary mission: we put them in a threat area so we don't have to expose an officer."...

***

"They order him to surrender and he does not respond," Cannan said. "He's told that if he does not surrender, a police dog will be sent in and he will be bit. He does not respond. We deploy the dog. He shoots the dog. As soon as he fires, the officers on scene responded in kind and fired on him," Cannan said.

"They fired in response to being fired upon, knowing he had already fired at officers."...


http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-100305shoot_lat,0,7065227.story?coll=la-tot-promo&track=morenews

[friesianrider]

1. Police dogs are treated the same as a police officer...

Far as I know as well.

I absolutely believe the police acted appropriately.

[merwin]

2. Aside from being put in threat areas to spare an officer, yes :-)

[TryingToWarnYou]

172. Yeah, because officers never get 'put in threat areas'...

NT

[htuttle]

3. Police dogs killed in the line of duty often get funerals with full honors

21 gun salutes, and the whole nine yards.

[saigon68]

62. Do they pray for their Souls too ??

[Auntie Bush]

117. Yes,...all beloved animals have souls!!!

[LostinVA]

7. In many states, they are legally considered an officer

And thus killing one is legally akin to killing a human officer.

[Centered]

24. and damn right it should be!

[friesianrider]

27. Welcome to DU! (and right on!)

I couldn't agree with you more!

Great to have you with us here at DU :hi:

[Centered]

74. thank you

thank you very much :)

[High Plains]

52. You guys are kidding, right?

Sorry, but a dog is not a human being. A police dog is not a police officer. Are you saying that someone who kills a police dog should be sentenced to death or life in prison?

[Coventina]

63. I'm against the DP, but life in prison, yes. n/t

[friesianrider]

78. I have to agree...

No one fully understands until they have seen these dogs in action and how brave they are - and how many human lives they save. If you ask any cop who has a K9 what they feel about this, I'd bet that you will find this same reaction from them.

[High Plains]

80. Life in prison for shooting a police dog?

How did I end up on Free Republic?

Or is this what passes for liberal and progressive these days?

I like dogs, too, but c'mon!

Yeah, I'm sure any K9 officer would agree with you, but I certainly don't have to. And before we eulogize these "heroic" dogs, let's think about what they are usually used for. The ones I know spend most of their time sniffing out dope or being wielded as crowd-control agents.

[Centered]

83. What about our stance qualifies us to be Freepers?

Since when does being a Democrat mean you have to hate law enforcement?

Not all of us spend our time smoking grass and playing Nintendo my friend....

So basically your position is that Police Dogs should be killed because they might find your stash? Last time I checked... finding drugs was still enforcing the law.

Legalize it... then smoke it... not the other way around.

[politick]

94. Right on!

We smoke grass and play Play Station 2, dammit!

;)

[Centered]

101. Damn Skippy!!

[natrat]

115. glad they shot the pos gang banger

and i smoke dope and play nintendo all day

[Centered]

118. Dude!!! you need to get with the times

PS2 or xbox... you need a hook up bad :)

[Moochy]

122. You should smoke more pot

[High Plains]

131. Who said anything about hating law enforcement?

Who said anything about smoking dope?

Who said police dogs should be killed?

Don't misconstrue my posts!

I am not saying the police dog should have been killed, nor I am I saying the guy who shot him should not have been killed (although I tend to err on the side of valuing human life).

What I find really objectionable is the attitudes of some here that
a. Animals equal humans

b. Police animals equal humans

c. Humans should be killed or given life in prison for killing animals, even police animals.

d. A criminal offender is a low-life scum, POS, etc. That kind of language, while emotionally satisfying to emotional cripples, is way too dehumanizing for my taste. Makes it awful easy to excuse the death of human being. Much like that Islamic haji scum we're eradicating in Iraq. Do you see the parallel, Mr. Democrat?

Yes, it stinks of Free Republic hate-spewing to me. You, of course, are welcome to your opinion.

[Centered]

141. I see where the miscommunication is

My friend... I think perhaps we are both speaking from misconceptions. I apologize if that is the case.

My pov is very basic... the animal is an officer (both legally... and personally to me)

I respond in kind to any situation where an officer is shot/killed in the line of duty. In that respect I believe a very hard sentence should be imposed to anyone convicted of killing an officer.

I feel very strongly about this (which is probably the main reason why I should not discuss it... because it is difficult to remain objective and open.)

I will state however that I have not in any of my posts about this issue stated that the suspect is a pos or scum. I would agree with you on your point that it is dehumanizing to a degree... but more than that Innocent until proven guilty.

The smoking dope reference was uncalled for I will apologize for that my friend. I jumped to a conclusion because your first words in defense of killing the animal seemed to suggest that since they look for drugs they are the enemy.

You will come to find my friend that being a Democrat is a very blanket philosophy, just as being a Republican. We can't all agree on everything. as an example to state you value human life could suggest to some that you do not support choice.

At times we all become heated in our discussions and to that effect I believe what separates us from "freepers" is that I believe we are capable of apology even to the other side if we are wrong or we use the wrong words to express ourselves.

Whether in jest or seriousness I am glad you feel I am welcome to my opinion as I extend the same courtesy to you (as it is your right.)

I hope that you will agree with me that we both made incorrect assumptions about each others point of view.

[moggie]

173. Does a police dog have powers of arrest?

If so, does s/he Mirandize? If not, I don't see how s/he can be considered a police officer.

[Centered]

174. LOL

cute :)

[MADem]

177. Yeah, they let those teeth do the arresting!

The howling of the suspect when Fido latches on makes it difficult to effectively Mirandize, though.

[MADem]

176. The odds are good that if the dog was shot and killed

the shooter was aiming in the direction of the cops accompanying said dog. Their use of force seems entirely reasonable and appropriate to me in those difficult circumstances.

It's the headline that is messed up, IMO. Should read something like Suspect shoots at cops, Hits Police Dog, Police return fire, killing suspect

[Freedomfried]

106. Right on, its only a vicious dog!

Prone to the misuse by the officer handling him.

[Centered]

107. Back that up please

I would like links... then I would prefer your statistical anaylsis of the number of incidents in violation which outnumber the incidents of reasonable use of the animals by the Human Officer. If you can't come up with a better than 2% of the TOTAL I would advise you to not post on things you know NOTHING about.

Thank you and have a great day :)

[Freedomfried]

109. Take a look at the Abu Gharib and civil rights protest photos

and tell me these dogs don't have a potential for misuse,

Thank you very much, have a nice day.

[Centered]

112. ooooooo you were talking POTENTIAL (your said "prone to misuse")

well let's see... potentially I can rule the world... but that has no bearing whatsoever on fact.

State your opinion as you are welcome to do my friend but let's not jump into the world of make believe.

I would ask you again to find proof that Police dogs are misused by their handlers.

and with your Abu Gharib referrence... please note I am talking about Police dogs... I can not speak about Military animals as I know nothing about those.

And yes I'm having a great day... :)

[gulfcoastliberal]

129. At lunch today, my waiter was an ex-narc who I talked to about how they

train drug dogs (His sister owns the restaurant and he wants to open one of his own in a diff. state, he had enough of being a narc, but he couldn't keep his dog he had for over 2 years and missed her greatly - golden lab). Often the dogs are rescued from the pound or donated by families who can't keep them. The big aptitude test is a tennis ball - if the dog keeps his/her attention on the ball and ignores distractions, it's the ideal candidate. Then they put pot, crack, whatever in a bush and throw the ball to that location. The dog then gets to associate that smell with the ball. I told the waiter I have a half shepherd/half lab and he goes nuts for tennis balls - we play all the time. The waiter told me I could very easily train my boy to find anything - car keys, remote controls, beer, my stash - you name it. Wow!

Edit for spelling and to say after 8 years on the force this guy made all of 34K per year! No wonder he wants to be an entrepreneur! He said he mostly did highway interdictions. He told me about hs prior occupation cause he came back to my table to confirm something after I ordered and apologized profusely saying he was new to the job. So I asked what he did and he said "drug deals" but he did not look like an ex crack or meth fiend at all. Catching the hint, I asked, state or fed? and he said "state" but he got "loaned" to the DEA for some kind of missions or whatever.

[MADem]

178. Those were MWDs, not police dogs

Military Working Dogs are trained separately -- some perform similar functions, but they aren't the same at all. MWD's have shitty lives, are kept in kennels, never socialized, do not go home with or live with their handlers. FWIW.

[shavedape]

111. a dog is only as innocent as its handler

"Up to 90% of South Africa's police dogs that go out on patrol should be destroyed, a renowned international police dog trainer said on Wednesday.
They don't trust anybody and cannot socialise with other dogs or people, and he said the dogs were too psychologically sick to be rehabilitiated. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1035390.stm

[Centered]

114. it's a good thing the US Police doesn't train dogs like that anymore.

Yes the animal will do what it is told to do by it's handler but I still do not believe that the police are evil. Digging up a photo from 50 years ago isn't going to change my mind either...

a photo from 5 years ago might though... so keep trying, you might sway me yet :)

but also pulling an article from a google search talking about how South Africa is 50 years behind on it's training techniques (which is why the dogs can't live "normal" lives after their service ends has no bearing on the discussion of Police dogs in the USA.

[Freedomfried]

159. Lets review....

Police and military dogs are trained to attack.

Police and military dogs are unstable and unsociable.

Police and military dogs are prone to misuse at the whim or digression of the handler.

If somebody should shoot or kill a police dog for ANY REASON, even SELF DEFENSE, they than have to deal with the same charges and penalties as if they had done the same to a human police officer???

WHAT?

[Centered]

160. ok let's review

Police dogs are trained to bite an extremety and not let go until commanded.

Police dogs in SOUTH AFRICA are unstable and unsociable around other dogs because they are trained with a method that is 50 years behind the times.

Police dogs are not prone to misuse because NO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO PROVE IT. So stop saying prone it means a totally different thing.

Yes if you shoot/kill a Police dog in the line of it's duty you will be penalized just as you would for shooting/killing a human officer. )This is a FACT so either change the law... or just deal with it.)


Please please please... either know what you are talking about... or sit down and let the big kids talk.

[Freedomfried]

162. Don't resort to insulting me when you fall behind on a debate

accept the failure of your argument gracefully, its the key to longevity on boards such as this.

:)

[Centered]

168. ummm riiight

how can I be losing a debate when you still haven't offered and factual points relevant to the actual issue??

And I didn't insult you my friend... If you don't have any facts to present and you don't know what you are talking about... then don't post. It's that simple.

[Centered]

161. and btw...

Shooting at Police officers (human or K9) while attempting to evade capture is NOT SELF DEFENSE.

[Freedomfried]

163. Self delete

troll timer timed out

[friesianrider]

124. Well with all due respect...

I don't really care what you think. This IS a liberal message board - it's called you accept and respect other's viewpoints. I don't care what you think but you're entitled to your thoughts. This is mine. I have yet to meet an animal that on it's WORST day wasn't better than 90% of the people I meet in my life. These dogs save human lives EVERY DAY - that is worth something very substantial to me.

[youspeakmylanguage]

142. If it were up to me...

...then anyone who willfully killed a dog would be sent to prison for life.

I'm a liberal, and I think violent and most non-violent criminals are, for the most part, scum. How they got to be scum is a worth examining and we as a society need to correct certain injustices and inequalities that can lead to more crime, but anyone who shoots a police dog deserves to be shot as well. End of story.

[hyphenate]

86. Life in prison, yes

and yes death, if caught in the act of killing the dog while committing a crime.

Police dogs ARE peace officers, even if they are not human beings. And killing one while they are performing their duty is definitely a felony with special circumstances.

Better get used to that attitude around DU. We're ALL very much animal lovers here. And often times, those animals are more important to a good portion of us than any member of the Bush League of Terror.

[Book Lover]

119. self delete

[toopers]

123. I don't know about that . . .

I can think of a few people I would trade to have some of my dogs back!

[zanne]

133. In NH, if you kill somebody's pet, you see a judge.

Pet killers have had prison sentences of three years or longer. You can't turn everyone into a lover of animals, so you need laws to prevent animal cruelty.

[Dave Reynolds]

149. Check your state's laws,

police dogs are equal to a human officer.

You saying they are not does not make it so.

[FrankX]

22. What a sad story.

[DeepModem Mom]

28. Very sad, FrankX -- welcome to DU.

[The Stranger]

57. What I find to be most sad,

is that this dog gave its life for the police officers, yet there are people on these boards who post solely to make sure that dogs are not treated as humans would be treated.

Regardless as to how one feels about the status of animals, it is sad that someone's self-worth would be tied to knowing that another creature -- one that has sacrificed all that it ever had for people -- would always be somehow -- somehow -- treated as less than people.

Something is wrong there somewhere.

[DS1]

The Dog was sacrificed

And it was a revenge killing.

[Straight Shooter]

4. Long criminal history, and they send in a dog to threaten him.

Like, what did they expect would happen in that scenario? I understand dogs -- bless them -- are wonderful additions to a police force, but could no one figure out the man would in all likelihood shoot the dog and kill it? Was there no other alternative? I'm perplexed.

Besides the value of the dog as an asset to the PD, I'm really sad to learn that beautiful creature met his death by gunfire.

[niallmac]

5. Two things I get from this story.

1.- I get very emotional about such killings and other assorted abuses of animals. My reaction is maybe more emotional than that I might experience for many accounts of deaths of humans. Not saying it's good or what not. Just saying.

2.- The other message I get from this article is: "Don't shoot the police dog asshole!"

[DeepModem Mom]

6. Same here. I heard this story from someone who saw it reported...

on local LA news. She said the dog's police "partner," a large burly man, was inconsolable as he carried the dog to a helicopter.

I think the emotion involved in the death of an animal, for me, maybe has something to do with their inability to speak, and their vulnerability, like children.

[AwareOne]

8. I'm a dog lover, I have three myself but this

rule of the police dog, or horse being an official officer is bullshit. What's next, the police car is also an officer and kicking it is a felony?

[RamboLiberal]

10. Police car is not a living, breathing, thinking being

Don't agree with you. I say injuring or killing a K9 or police horse is same as assaulting a human police officer.

Too bad the K9 is considered expendable to protect the human police officer - though I understand the rationale.

But I can sure understand how the K9's handler feels. I'm glad I'm not a cop and I'm glad I wouldn't have to choose to put my dog in that kind of danger.

[tuckessee]

23. Is killing or injuring my animal(s) the same as assualting me?

If not, why are the police awarded special rights above and beyond that which is given us mere peasants?

[Centered]

31. because the police are thrust into an environment...

that us mere peasants do not have to face on a daily basis.

ie everyone lies to you... and some people would rather kill you to avoid going to jail.

Such as the very horrifying murder of Deputy Kyle Dinkheller which you can watch on video if you care to make yourself sick.

But I digress... you are actually misunderstanding the situation. Attacking/killing a police dog is NOT an attack on the handler. The police dog IS an officer and thereby entitled to protection by other officers (ie they can shoot you in the dogs defense if you point a weapon at it) as well as the punishments enstilled upon anyone who would cause the same harm to a human officer. The animal isn't an extension of the handling officer... the animal is an officer complete with badge number in some states.

[Kingshakabobo]

113. Wow. That was disturbing.

The video doesn't show it but the caption says he let the suspect alone in the vehicle for 50 seconds AFTER the problems started.

Unfortunately, it makes a great training tape. Very sad and VERY horrifying.

[Lindacooks]

42. Actually, in some states killing or injuring an animal IS a felony

and injuring a person, not so much. In fact, several women's advocacy groups use the Minnesota law that it's a felony to injure an animal in many domestic abuse cases to get a stiffer sentence for the offender. It's not a felony to injure a woman.

[nolabels]

55. Treating chickens better in other countries so why should we be surprised?

The whole lot of these people who claim to be pro-life and in charge got their head up their ass

On edit and or btw how is that US war budget going?

Bush handling of Iraq at 33% approval rating
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/9238
http://www.antiwar.com/

[mac56]

11. Welcome to DU.

With all due respect, AwareOne, you're wrong.

[progressivebydesign]

13. The point is that the jerk shot a line of defense for the officers.

HE had already SHOT AT THE HUMAN OFFICERS. The dog was a chance for this guy to actually be arrested without the loss of human life, but he fucked up and it ended poorly for him. Bad choice on his part.

[friesianrider]

26. Yes, I agree 100%!

A police dog is a line of defense for the officers. Think how many situations where a K9 was used instead of an actual officer. Now I personally hold animals to a much higer regard than most people, but that being said would you rather an officer shot and killed or a K9 shot and killed? Just consider how many human lives K9's have saved over the years. There's a reason if you ask any officer what he thinks of his K9, the officer will say that dog is his partner the same as a human officer would be.

You hot tha nail on the head, PBD! :thumbsup:

[Mike Daniels]

61. Yep. Guy was lucky they even gave him the chance to surrender to the dog

Once you shoot at an officer in the process of committing a crime, the gloves (rightfully) come off.

They gave this guy a chance to come out of this alive and he basically said "F**k You".

[friesianrider]

25. I think the logic is that...

Those police dogs are not just pets of the officer or even tools the officer uses on a daily basis like a police cruiser. They are trained to save the lives of the police officers and any civilian in harm's way. Because of those dogs, literally hundreds if not thousands of policemen and women's lives have been saved and/or spared in emergencies like this. Had that dog not gone in, it likely would have been an officer who gave his life.

Because of that I think it's entirely appropriate that a police dog be treated similarly to an officer. I mean heck, this guy was firing at the police dog then turned on the policemen themselves. They deserve to be treated with similar amounts of respect...there's a reason policemen are so loyal to their police dogs. If you've ever met a policeman with his own K9, the policeman considers that dog his partner the same as a human partner.

BTW, love your avatar ;) Go Eagles! :P

[Occulus]

39. Fine. Landlords should not be able to prohibit any dogs.

At all. Period.

Police dog dander is no different from "regular" dog dander, and the tenant following the K9 officer will show a reaction.

Or is police dog dander "special" too?

(I'm only being half silly. I've never understood, nor accepted, this exception. And I LOVE dogs.)

[renter]

49. Good Morning kgfnally, it depends...

on the owner. In an earlier post I stated how I went from a renter to a landlord. One of the "joys" of now being a landlord is dealing with insurance companies. Insurance regulations often prohibits dogs such as pit bulls, rottwielers, etc. I do see their point, but again we can go back to the owner(s) and less-than-honest breeders. I hope kgfnally you don't have insomnia like I have now. Have a good day.

[JackDragna]

35. Even if no one else will...

I'll back you up here, AwareOne. Animals should be valued and protected, but they do not share the same status as people, even if the animal is trained for a civic duty like law enforcement. The man with the gun was clearly a threat, but he should not have been killed unless he fired on (human) police officers.

(Edit) Apparently, the person had shot at human officers. Oh well. One less group of maginant chromosomes in the population.

[friesianrider]

36. I disagree.

I am not quite ready to say that I believe animals are worth the same as humans, but as for a K9 officer I absolutely believe that they deserve to be protected as any other human officer (and they are). If you point a gun at a K9 officer, a human officer is supposed to treat that as a gun pointed at another human officer. These dogs have given their lives to save cops' lives...they deserve to be treated with the same amount of respect and honor, period.

[Kenneth ken]

37. sorry

K9s are clearly not treated with the same respect and honor as human officers. In the first place, no one tells the K9 that he/she can be killed in the line of duty, so the dog isn't given a fair chance to decide to accept or decline the role. Second, K9s don't have kevlar or even the capacity to return fire if fired upon.

Just one more example of humans using their own bias to say humans matter more than any other species, and so humans can use any other species in any way that benefits humans without regard to the impact on individuals of the other species.

I only say this to you because I know you are an animal rights advocate, and I want you to view this from a slighlty different perspective.

:hi:

[fortyfeetunder]

45. There are kevlar vests for dogs

I saw a German sheperd K9 wearing a vest on Cops the other night. What a concept!

[LostinVA]

51. I actually do think animals are worth the same as humans

If an animal is assaulted or murdered, then the person who did that should be charged as if it were a human. They are killing a living, intelligent, feeling creature. We are not better, nor more important, than animals. And, for those on this board who are Judeo-Christian in their beliefs, this POV is stated in the Bible. For those of us who are Pagans, this is part of our beliefs. For everyone else -- I think it's the morally correct thing. IMO.

Violence against any of "God's" creature is violence against us all. It's equally repugnant.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

88. Are you vegan?

Or does this only apply to the cute and cuddly animals? What about all of those animals murdered every day in the slaughter houses?

[friesianrider]

93. I agree with that poster...and I am veg.

:shrug:

What the hell does that have to do with anything? Most animal lovers I know don't just love the "cute and cuddlies" - this argument that "we" only care about the furry ones is absurd. I respect all life and realize it's importance in the world - even the slimy, gross, and ugly. To just automatically hoist one species over another is stupid. Many animals have MANY different qualities human beings could never and will never have. We are, after all, only animals ourselves.

[loudsue]

164. All living things, maybe....except chiggers (red bugs).

You can tell I live in the South. Chiggers are the devil, and they are where I draw the line....well, them and the Brown Recluse.

Other than that...if it lives, I honor its right to be here.

:kick:

[JackDragna]

100. We clearly are more important than animals.

I cannot fathom a society where killing animals (or, specifically, other animals, since humans are animals) is the same as murder. Animals have value, to be sure, and I abhorr their mistreatment, but I'm not ready to send my neighbor to prison for the same amount of time if he kills either his dog or his wife.

[Gnostic]

97. One more scum thug gang member off the streets

Just too bad a living being had to die in order to accomplish it.

[JackDragna]

99. I'm sorry, but they don't.

Dogs are dogs. They're not people. If the officers did not see fit to use lethal force the first time when shot at, they shouldn't use it when the dog gets shot.

[koopie57]

47. maybe your dogs would not give their lives for you

but I certainly don't think it is bullshit that this dog died protecting those he loved. Kicking a police car is a lot different than killing the dog.

[saigon68]

67. Here are a few dogs that love their work

Of biting "Untermenschen" (sub-humans)

[Coventina]

68. You can't possibly believe that the dogs owned by Nazis were complicit in

their crimes!

:crazy:

[saigon68]

69. Actually US Thug Troops use them Too

Use of Dogs to Scare Prisoners Was Authorized
Military Intelligence Personnel Were Involved, Handlers Say

By Josh White and Scott Higham
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, June 11, 2004; Page A01

\\ Link http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6316.htm


U.S. intelligence personnel ordered military dog handlers at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq to use unmuzzled dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees during interrogations late last year, a plan approved by the highest-ranking military intelligence officer at the facility, according to sworn statements the handlers provided to military investigators.







Spec. Sabrina D. Harman, a member of the 372nd Military Police Company, said she saw the incident and said the detainee was bitten after he tried to run from the dog and was cornered. Cardona, whose dog apparently bit the detainee twice, once on each leg, justified letting his dog go to the end of its leash because he believed the detainee was fighting with Spec. Charles A. Graner Jr.

[Coventina]

70. Once again, you can't possibly be suggesting that the dogs were aware that

they were committing a war crime?

The dog follows the instructions of the pack leaders. If the pack leader tells it to attack, it will attack. That is how dog society fuctions.

It is humans who have used this behavior to their advantage, and who use it for evil ends.

[saigon68]

82. I guess the dogs were following THE CHIMPANZEE

And his mission to punish Islamics

[Coventina]

89. The dogs know nothing about Chimpy's crusade

They are not culpable.

[anotherdrew]

156. the dogs should not be there, where the fuck is PETA on this?

[Renew Deal]

136. It made for good laughs in Half Baked

[shrike]

147. An officer and his canine partner are together constantly

They are trained as a team from the get-go. In my town, the K-9 also lives at his human partner's home. I'm sure losing a four-legged partner is every bit as emotional as losing a two-legged one.

[ShockediSay]

9. For sure, lots of knee jerks

on this one.

[progressivebydesign]

12. The jerk already fired at the human officers...

I guess he thought he had some magic bullets or invisible body armor when he tried to kill the human officers first. The dog is treated as an officer, and I have no problem with that.

The point is that the guy killed the one thing that the police used to control someone that had already tried to kill them. They didn't just decide to shoot him because he killed the dog, he was ALREADY firing on THEM!! This was just an escalation of his violence.

My heart goes out to the "partner" of the beautiful dog. Sorry, but I can't find any sympathy for the death of a street gang member with a long criminal history, who probably killed his share of people. Karma is a bitch.. and shooting at police is pretty fucking stupid.

[BigBearJohn]

14. Why couldn't they have employed tear gas instead of sacrificing the dog?

[niallmac]

15. Hmm. Don't know. I wasn't there but that's

an option which if it was available could have saved two lives. I feel like an armchair dink in this case though because; I just don't know what was going down.

[0007]

21. Or taser the asshole.

[lateo]

33. Very good question.

Perhaps there will be an investigation.

[jahyarain]

76. because that wouldn't have killed the guy

they sent the dog in to be shot (and anyone here would have shot a dog that was about to attack them and if not you're fucking stupid) so they could retaliate. for being a gang member and armed ex con, he needed to be helped along to the next plane of existence but not over a fucking dog that was attacking him. don't know if any of you have ever seen a person that's been mauled but you wouldn't call the dog a cop if you had. it's a fucking animal. and even the cops admit they send them in so cops are not put in harms way. i don't believe in being cruel to anyone or anything but this is ridiculous. and everyone who holds dogs, cats, or any other animal in higher regard than human life better be vegetarians (and even then you're kill a living, breathing creature to sustain your own life). flame away...

[ljaycox]

127. I don't hold dogs...

to be considered more important than humans...in general. I do consider MY dog more important to me than some other people. Particularly if the "some other people" are threatening my dog.
Context...context.

[Dem2theMax]

16. My best friends husband, a policeman, was the partner of a K-9 for many

years. Only the death of the dog, due to health reasons, broke up that partnership. I dog sat for Boris (doggies name) on more than one occasion. The first time was nerve wracking, thinking that I would end up as dinner rather than feeding him dinner. But he got to know me and I swear, that dog would have protected me with everything he had in him.

Police dogs are very intelligent, highly trained, and very loyal.
Boris was trained to protect and serve, just like his human counterpart. I've never felt so safe in my life as I was when I was taking care of him. I can only imagine how wonderful it is to have a K-9 as a partner. These dogs deserve the respect they are shown by their fellow officers. And when one is killed in the line of duty, the person or persons who killed the K-9 should be held responsible.

My heart breaks for the officer who called that dog his partner and friend. K-9's live with the officer. They are not just partners, but part of their family at home as well.

[DeepModem Mom]

17. Thanks for this heartfelt post, Dem. nt

[Judi Lynn]

30. Dem2theMax, thanks for writing of your experience with Boris.

I've never heard from anyone who has been close to one of these creatures, so I never knew how they behave "off the job."

It must have been absolutely wonderful to have seen such a highly trained animal. They are fierce looking. I would think it would take a bit of courage to get past the fear.

It was good to read your post.

[Dem2theMax]

50. Courage? I just about peed my pants! LOL.

I will NEVER forget the first time I met Boris. David, his 'human' partner, watched from a window as he had me go into the backyard, where Boris and two other family dogs lived. David said that if Boris acted in any way other than friendly to me, he could call him off right away. I must have been nuts and very trusting because I did as he said and Boris took right to me. Boris was fairly new to the family at that time and had only gone through his German training. He was from Germany and only understood commands in German. So I had to learn all the commands. Thankfully I had taken German in school so at least I had the accent right. LOL. Anyway, Boris understood me and that was the important part. The first two weeks I was there, we just got to know each other and he did take commands from me.

The second time I 'Boris' sat, he was a full on police dog, having learned the true way to attack. When these dogs are new to the world of K-9 training, at least in Germany, they are taught to only bite the protective clothing that is being worn by the person helping to train them. Biting flesh is a no-no at that point. Once Boris came to America, he completed training that taught him that 'attack' meant to go for the skin. On this second visit, Boris was 'skin' trained. 'Attack' truly meant attack. The commands for 'heel' and 'attack' have just one letter difference between them (in German). So you had to be careful not to get your words mixed up! I was more interested in the word 'out,' as in 'let go,' get it out of your mouth, just in case he decided I did look like a good snack. hahaha? He never gave me a single problem. David would wrestle with him in the house. One night I found myself doing the same thing and all of a sudden it hit me, "what the hell are you doing Dem?" "This is a POLICE dog you idiot!" LOL. Boris acted like a puppy, just wanting to play. But I always kept it in the back of my mind that he was fully trained and I had to respect that at all times.

Dogs are pack animals and police dogs see their human counterpart as the head of the pack, since that person is the one who provides food. As long as I brought the food, I was in good with Boris. David swore that when he got home, Boris would return to his normal behavior of only listening to and acting on commands from David. Well, Boris must have liked me. Because he'd listen to me as well, totally blowing the mind of my girlfriend, David's wife. Boris wouldn't listen to her at all and they were both amazed that he would still take commands from me after David got home.

Boris and David were together for at least five years. Maybe a bit longer. One day Boris got very sick and David rushed him to the vet. They worked on him for hours but were unable to save his life. It had something to do with his stomach. I can't remember the exact problem. To say we were all heartbroken was an understatement. Boris was something special. He wasn't much to look at. He was skinny, compared to many other German Shepherds and his coat was very wiry. But he was fierce, strong, playful, so very smart, and such a good dog/buddy/friend, let alone police dog. Like I said in my previous post, I have never felt so safe in my life as when I was with him.
David turned down the chance to work with other K-9's. He was so broken up over Boris' untimely death that he just couldn't face the thought of losing another 'partner' down the road. He's still on the force, now working with the humans. I've got to say, I'll bet my bottom dollar, working with Boris was much more fun.

It was an experience I will always remember. Police dogs are amazing creatures. Every time I see one, they don't scare me. They bring back very good memories of Boris. I miss him. I hope he's running free in doggie heaven. Which had better be our heaven. Because heaven wouldn't be heaven without our furry friends.

[Judi Lynn]

84. Thank you for your comments on Boris. You're right, animals give

far, far more to our daily lives than they take from them.

[Redstone]

18. Well, it says he "had fired a gun at officers,"

so fuck him. The cops had a right to shoot back.

I don't particularly like cops, but if you shoot at one (or more), you deserve what you get.

Redstone

[warrior1]

19. May

Ranger rest in peace.

Sad story for all involved.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

20. I'm glad they capped the sonofabitch

ANYONE who shoots a dog deserves to go down.

The exact same scenario took place just behind where I lived in Nashville, several years back. A bank robber was hiding in the undergrowth along the highway, and they sent a dog in. The dog was shot by the robber, and they proceeded to shoot the robber down. I approve.

[RedRocco]

29. does anyone remember

the woman that was charged with murder after a K9 died when she fed it a hamburger?

[rppper]

32. a K9 story here.....

not a police K9, but one nonetheless.....

my father was a green beret, and was part of the initial set of advisor's sent to vietnam to train the s. vietnamese army from 1964 thru 1966. the special forces used K9's to sniff out the viet cong in the jungles, spider holes and such. my father both trained and handled the dogs. during a routine patrol into the jungles outside of their camp/village, they came under fire from a VC sniper. as was customary for the VC to do, the dog was shot twice, so it would be more difficult to track the sniper. my father, risking his life, ran into the zone of fire and snatched the dog up, carrying the 100lb+ wounded animal on his back, over a mile back to base camp where, unfortunately, he died a few hours later. i asked him why he would risk his life, knowing the dog didn't have a chance. he said the dog was his friend, that vietnamese ate dog like we eat steak, and there was no way his friend was going to be dinner for some company of viet cong soldiers. he said they buried the dog, like the K9 in the story, with full military honors. dad was tough as nails, but this was one of the few things about that war that made my dad well up.

those criminals know those dogs are treated as regular officers...shoot a cop...any cop...you know what you are in for.

[DeepModem Mom]

34. Wow, rppper -- thanks for this story. nt

[Judi Lynn]

38. I'll bet knowing his friend was with him comforted that dog,and calmed it.

Very kind, although difficult, and dangerous act.

[nodehopper]

60. well, regardless of your personal feelings on the subject

in the court of law a killing of an animal is not at all commesurate with manslaughter. The fact that a police dog is, for procedure purposes, treated like an officer, an assault on whom warrants shooting a human being is completely illegal and f*cked-up.

[ernstbass]

65. Well said!!

I totally agree

[oostevo]

40. This is going to be unpopular ...

I realize ahead of time that this is going to be an extremely unpopular opinion, and I'm very sorry if I offend anyone with it -- please believe that I don't mean to.

If I were the man in the story, I would have shot the dog.

I realize that giving up earlier when the police said that they were going to send a dog in was the only sane thing to do in this case, but once the 100+ lb. animal trained to attack you is let loose, the dog was a direct threat to his life (at least as far as he knew -- would you expect someone off the street to know the extent to which police dogs are taught restraint?), and I think the logical thing to do at that point, in his mind, would have been to pull the trigger.

I also don't particularly think that the shooting a dog is the same as shooting an officer argument holds well here -- if a police officer comes charging in at you, you're probably going to be thrown to the ground, handcuffed, and/or possibly tasered (depending on the officer). If a police dog comes charging after you, you _are_ going to be attacked by a rather dangerous animal, quite viciously.

[RedRocco]

41. I agree with you

so I guess that makes 2 of of us heartless animal haters /sarcasm

[wellstone_democrat]

43. sorry, a dog is not a valuable as a human

and, if a german shepard came rampaging at me I'd instinctive shoot it and not do the same to a human.

[bitchkitty]

44. Not logical -

You wouldn't be holed up shooting at a bunch of police. What you would do in the situation wouldn't apply - because you wouldn't be in that situation. Of course if a dog just ran up and attacked out of the blue, and you happened to be carrying a gun...

I've lived a long time - and I've yet to meet a dog that wasn't a better person than 90% of the humans I've known.

[friesianrider]

73. "I've yet to meet a dog that wasn't a better person than 90%..."

"...of the humans I've known."

Truer words have never been spoken.

[Norwood]

120. So incredibly true n/t

[anotherdrew]

157. oh yeah, no one could be holed up running from cops... get ready folks!

what the hell do you think bush has planed? traitors will be rounded up before long if he isn't stopped, and most on this board would qualify. You need to really think hard about how quickly shit can go down, and no one is going to do a damn thing if he did start rounding folks up, maybe a few protests, but so what? they don't give a damn about protests, and would just pick all them up too if need be. Anyone could be on the run before much longer.

[koopie57]

48. actually

I think this dog was more valuable than the person who shot it. The dog made the world a better place for being here.

[guruoo]

90. So if a human came running at you with a weapon...

instead of capping them first,
you'd just stand there and wait to see
what happens? :shrug:

[the_spectator]

46. So what effect does this have on DUer PETA people ???

World-view implosion!
(My anti-police brutality liberalism wants me to condemn this, but my "animal-firstism" wants me to defend it!):nuke:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

53. I'm not sorry the guy was killed.

But I don't think violence against police dogs should be equivalent to that of a police officer.

[High Plains]

54. Wow, what a weird combination of responses...

Animal lovin'(and human hatin') and mawkish, pro-police sentimentality.

Did anyone notice that the dead human goes unnamed (I guess he was just low-life scum, right?) while the dead dog is eulogized?

Doggie funerals? The cops (and some DUers) can do all that masturbatory thin blue line crap if they wish, but having been on the other side of the police line a few times, I'll pass.

[wellstone_democrat]

58. Having been ON that thin blue line for five years

I find the equation of human life with an animal---and the insistance that the human in question is himself proved to be "less" on the say so of those who shot him, not "compelling" to say the least.

The mawkish sentimentality over a dog---whose masters who love him so devotedly yet send the dog in where they find it unsafe to be with guns themselves with the dehumanizing of a person---is repugnant. You all better hope that you aren't in a position to be defined by accident or choice in this way ever as it will not matter what happened, only what is claimed.

And, I've only been on the "right" side of that line as one of those carrying the gun and the badge.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

91. Now here's a sentiment I can agree with

Well said, thanks.

[HuffleClaw]

167. hear hear

i had been under the impression police dogs were supposed to save lives, of both suspects and police. this sounds like a case where emotion overtook reason and common sense.

[Mike Daniels]

64. Given the description of the perp....

"The suspect, identified only as a known street gang member with a long criminal history, had fired a gun at officers during a foot pursuit before the final confrontation"....


Yeah, I think it's safe to say that he was "low-life scum"

[ernstbass]

66. Yes he was low life scum

Anyone who harms an animal is low life scum in my book and certainly not worth mentioning by name!

[High Plains]

71. "Low life scum"

Ya gotta love it when DU sounds like NYPD Blue. Has anybody used the word "perp" yet?

Of course, you realize we are relying solely on police descriptions of this guy. They can peg him as a gang-banger, but they don't have a name?

He may indeed have been a criminal, but this smacks of police cover-your-ass. I have long since failed to be amazed at how quickly police can trash the people they kill.

[friesianrider]

92. Oh be still my heart...

PC much?

I'm sorry but the PC nonsense is lost on me when you have a situation like this. If for no other reason, he shot at a human officer and killed a K9 officer. Reason enough for me - low life scum indeed. Good riddance, and I would encourage the police who shot him to not lose a moment's sleep over the incident (except for losing the dog in the situation).

[friesianrider]

72. Let's see...shot at a K9 and police officers...hmm...

Excuse me while I cry a river for yes, this low-life piece of scum. :sarcasm:

Cry that piece of crap a river if you want, but don't expect me to get all weepy over his life being lost. I say good riddance. That dog's life - based on the lives of the GOOD people that he saved and the service he gave - was worth more than that criminal's life ANY DAY of the friggin' week.

[High Plains]

75. I'm not crying for anybody...

but I get tired of hateful spewing like this on DU.

[friesianrider]

77. Well ...

I understand your position but guess I don't know what you expect anyone to say. "Oh that poor criminal who tried to kill several policemen and killed a K9 officer?" If anyone deserves any morsel of sympathy or compassion in this situation, this criminal would be last on my list. JMHO...

[Renew Deal]

79. Low life scum

pretty much sums it up. Besides that, they may not have notified his family yet.

[Moochy]

128. Sad story ....sadder thread

RAWR KILLEMALL!! LOWLIFE SCUM!! RAWR LOOK AT MY VIRTUAL CHEST BEATING AS I DECRY THE LOWLIFE SCUM GOOD RIDDANCE!!

peace

[Renew Deal]

134. You have sympathy for crime, criminals and murderers

I don't. You're the one who has to live with that.

[Moochy]

140. I have no sympathy for knee-jerk threads but...

Your mind reading powers are truly awesome.

[LisaL]

85. Anybody that does what he did is a low life scam.

The police should have just shot him instead of sending this poor dog after him.

[OKthatsIT]

56. Why did they risk the dog's life?

Did they tell the man about the 'dog = policeman law' before they sent in the dog?

Seems to me they really should be demoted, expelled for both murders.

[bitchkitty]

59. Bastards - I mean

both the police who sent him to his death, and the man who shot him.

[Throd]

81. TWO BLOCKS FROM MY HOUSE!!!

Fuck this guy! These type of people are my unfortunate reality. The entire neighborhood has been held hostage by these losers. I invite all of you crying foul about this to come live in the Willmore City district of Long Beach. Wanna walk your dog at night? You're asking to get shot. Wanna own something nice? Forget it! If it isn't stolen, it will be vandalized. Wanna just go to high school, get good grades and avoid trouble? No way. The gangbangers will kick your ass every week. This neighborhood is overwhelmingly hispanic and poor, living in the shadows of a glitzy redevelopment area. All we want to do is live our lives without predatory vermin taking away our lives and property.

[guruoo]

95. I agree, they shouldn't have even bothered...

with sending in a dog.

[Tight_rope]

98. That gang banger gets no sympathy from me...n/t

[DeepModem Mom]

126. Thank you for posting from your personal experience, Throd. nt

[GRLMGC]

146. I totally understand

My friend's cousin was gunned down by gang members because he happened to defend a girl one of them was accosting. They're pieces of shit. I understand they have probably come from unstable backgrounds but lots of people have and they don't go around killing other people.

[fleabert]

166. OMG! 'overwhelmingly hispanic'? you poor thing.

what the fuck does that have to do with anything?

[guruoo]

87. They had to know he'd kill the dog, so...

why did they even bother to send him in?

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

96. It gave them a good excuse to shoot the guy

Now that sounds like animal abuse to me. Or perhaps conspiracy to kill a police dog, which is the same as killing a police officer. I'm sure we can expect these cops to be brought up on charges. :eyes:

So the cop considers the dog to be just like a human partner? How many cops would send their human partners into a certain death situation?

[Divine Discontent]

103. SHEESH!!!!!!!!

Is this the NRA or Freeper chat room???????????

This isn't a liberal discussion. And I'm MODERATE. I fully respect the good cops, and admire their incredible sacrifice. The loving animal's sacrifice is unknown to the dog, it doesn't diminish it.

To say that this dog gets treated just like a HUMAN however, and therefore the criminal (thug or not!) should die because he acted heinously in hurting/killing an animal doing what it was trained to do, is a sick precedent to follow. It's like they wanted a reason to kill him (no, not the dog, although it may appear that way with the choice they made). Who are ANY of you to judge this derelict's life worth - SHAME ON YOU.

He could a total low life that has been a mean spirited sob from the day he came outta the womb, -or- he could a been a good kid that loved his family dearly and got mixed up into drugs and became a pathetic excuse of a person who committed crimes and would think it's fine in a moment of terror to shoot an animal. REGARDLESS, it's a human life that is being tossed around as "glad they popped a cap in him" and serves him right, blah blah blah...

I am saddened this sick individual killed a helpless dog that someone loved. I am sickened of the callousness of the gestapo in response to hearing about it, and responding in a not so mature manner.

Hey, your dues are up for the NRA, don't forget to send them.

[_testify_]

108. I agree! They should have sent milk & cookies instead

I bet after some hot cocoa the suspect would have been too sleepy to fire his illegally possessed firearm at law enforcement agencies.

Next time maybe the suspect will shoot a civilian's dog, and THEN we can ALL have a good cry about it.

[guruoo]

144. Nonsense. The suspect had already fired on the cops,...

so the cops should have given the perp a choice,
surrender and live, or...that's that.
Sending in the dog first was senseless.

[anotherdrew]

153. yep, you nailed that, the cops sent the dog to die

[Renew Deal]

135. How would they know that?

[anotherdrew]

154. the same reason why none of them wanted to walk in there, duh

[daleo]

102. What if a policeman shoots a drug dealer's dog?

Criminals often own dogs that love them and will do anything to protect them too. Dogs are loyal, but they don't have the cognitive ability to know right from wrong in human terms. We have to keep that in mind when we attribute heroism to them.

Police dogs deserve protection and respect, but killing one shouldn't be the trigger for a police execution. The article says the man was a street gang member with a long criminal history, but that can mean a lot of things. More details would be helpful - after all, this started as a simple parole violation.

I grant that shooting at police and a police dog doesn't generally indicate a peaceful disposition, and it isn't very smart in the circumstances he found himself in.

[CAcyclist]

104. Sorry, this is wrong

This is the second case I've heard of where the police executed the guy who shot the police dog. The first was in Fresno and never made the papers, but the clinic where I worked provided veterinary services for the police so we were told what happened - the police tracked the guy down and shot him in the field after he shot the dog.

The police don't have the right to do this.

[Divine Discontent]

105. Amen! A voice of sanity and clarity in a hazy gestapo civilization!

I think the patriot act and the big brother mentality have seeped into some of our more moderate friends online. I am moderate, and I think they're doing the talking points of right-wingers and don't even realize it. This is the SAME chatter you'd see on a freeper post.

[Centered]

110. I would agree...kinda

I am in total agreement that you can't track someone down and shoot them "after the fact"

However... if it's happening live, I don't see your parallel.

Suspect has a gun holed up somewhere... if the police have to come in to get you... you are pretty much screwed because at that point... anything can happen.

The moral of the story is... don't ever put yourself into a position where shooting at a police officer (which a K9 is) is an option. Put the gun down... and tell the officers you want to surrender and OBEY their commands.

[shrike]

148. Hate to say this ...

But if anyone killed our dog, whom my husband loves like one of his children, Hubby would be after him with a firearm. I can't blame the police officers for immediately reacting with gunfire.

[anotherdrew]

151. it was their intention that this happen though... they expected this

prove it ain't so. what's the point of sending a dog in by itself to confont a nut with a gun?

[nini]

116. I have a personal connection to this which I won't go into

but the suspect deserved what he got.

He refused order after order. Then started shooting again. You don't shoot when police are around - they are trained to take you out if you do.

[DeepModem Mom]

125. Thank you for posting, nini. nt

[classics]

121. I love dogs.

But dogs are not people, no matter who they belong to, including the police.

Whats next, Police Chickens? Police Cockroaches? Oops stepped on the blessed cockroach with its tiny camera attached, instant death penalty.

If you can make a dog an 'officer' its absolutely no stretch to make a cockroach into an officer.

I see no reason the penalty for injuring a police owned animal or insect should be any higher than for injuring a stray dog on the street.

[ElectroPrincess]

138. Hey, one's kids move away, one's K9 is devoted for life ...

Dogs are loving and loyal to their masters for life. An acquaintance of mine lost her son - he died in a fire when he returned inside in an attempt to save his beloved pets.

Ask anyone who has been blessed with the love and companionship of a dog (or cat), if they are NOT one of the family?

Why do you think many folks who had to leave their beloved K9s in New Orleans will most likely be emotionally scarred for life?

In fact, I often can relate to the old saying:

The more I know about people, the more I love my dog. :hi:

[classics]

175. Its nice that you love your dog so much.

As do I.

But its a dog, not a person.

If you want to live in a society where an animal can be 'blessed' by police into being some kind of super citizen, whos death is grounds for the street execution of any normal citizen, your out of your mind.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

130. "They order him to surrender and he does not respond"...

So why press the situation? People who are cornered usually give up eventually...
I'm just glad I live in a county where the sheriff, (best friend of the late Hunter S. Thompson) makes every effort not to have his deputies shoot the citizens they are paid to protect. Even the crazy nut, waving a gun for 3 days near the airport where the Prez (GHW Bush) was about to land was not taken out. Sheriff Braudis waited him out and the crazy guy finally dozed off.
Happy ending. No one hurt.

[anotherdrew]

152. that's the way to do it

[High Plains]

132. This is a bunch of sick shit

It looks like the police killed this guy because they were pissed off, not because they were in danger of their lives. I’m looking at a news report from local Channel 10. It says the police came to the parolee’s home for a “routine search,” and he fled on foot. He shot once at police in an alley, and they shot back. No one was hit. He eluded police and hid under a porch. Police sent in the dog “to flush the man out.” He shot the dog, which later died. Police then opened fire, killing him.

I don’t care if you love dogs (I’ve had several myself.) I don’t care if you hate “low-life scum.” That’s your sick, dehumanizing privilege.

What I do care about is police not killing citizens for no good reason. Being angry because he shot your dog or took a shot at you earlier is not a good reason. Maybe emotionally, but not legally. The police could have established a perimeter and waited the guy out. The police could have tried to flush him out with tear gas. They could have tried to negotiate with him. They did none of those things (as far as I can tell). Instead, they gunned him down (pardon me) like an animal.

"They order him to surrender and he does not respond," the police spokesman said. "He's told that if he does not surrender, a police dog will be sent in and he will be bit. He does not respond. We deploy the dog. He shoots the dog. As soon as he fires, the officers on scene responded in kind and fired on him," the police spokesman said. "They fired in response to being fired upon, knowing he had already fired at officers."

No, they did NOT fire in response to being fired on. The guy shot the dog. And then they killed him.

This killing needs to be investigated. The police need to be held accountable. And all you apologists for hot-blooded police murder need to take a deep breath and think again.

And I'm done posting on this topic. It's too depressing.

On edit: I had put in brackets in a couple of places, but it didn't take. His name was Cannen in the original article.

[TX-RAT]

139. You must be out of breath by now.

Just 1 question.

How many times are you allowed to shot at me, before i'm allowed to respond. I believe in your own post it says he fired on police officers. Sorry but i'm not giving you a second chance just because you missed the first time. Seems he was offered a multiple chances to give up. He made 1 bad choice after another.


(Being angry because he shot your dog or took a shot at you earlier is not a good reason. Maybe emotionally, but not legally)

Let me assure you, as a Peace officer, shooting at me will make me legally angry. I do not recommend it.

[gulliver]

137. Seems kind of stupid to use a dog this way.

Put the dog "in a threat area so we don't have to expose an officer?" I guess it depends on the threat area. Having a dog trying to bite someone seems like the perfect way to provoke shooting.

The dog's life is irrelevant here. Once the guy drew the gun at all, his fate was sealed. But maybe he would not even have drawn his weapon had the dog not been sicced on him.

Trained dogs attacking people offensively (as opposed to defensively) seems like one of these dumb ideas that a bunch of people agree with. I'm open to seeing statistics about dog officer outcomes, but it just seems stupid on its face. It adds senselessness to already precarious situations.

It also has political ramifications. Some might suspect the police of "avenging" the dog or firing on a human being to protect the dog, both of which should be illegal. And the cops probably didn't do either of those things, but because of this stupid dog-in-uniform concept, the suspicion is there.

[nsd]

145. He had already fired at the police before they sent in the dog /nt

[Ayesha]

143. One thing people are missing here...

I am not in any way involved with police dogs, but I have had service dogs and been part of that community for many years. The bond between disabled people and their helping dogs is incredibly strong, and I'm sure it's the same for police and theirs. The relationship formed between a person and a working dog is unique. Those of you who have dogs that are "only" pets, honestly, probably can't understand. In a working dog/human relationship there is an incredible amount of trust required, because the lives and/or safety of both depend on it. Working dogs and their handlers go everywhere together, practically 24/7 depending on the type of work - imagine taking your dog with you to your job, to dinner at a restaurant, into the bathroom with you! The dog is as close as a family member, perhaps more so. The pain at losing such a dog is also akin to losing a family member.

Dogs don't have a concept of heroism, but very intelligent dogs, ESPECIALLY herding breeds such as those used in police work, can sense people's intentions. They can spot bad people better than you can and will let you know about it. So I am certain that the dog was acting with an understanding of the threat posed by the individual, although of course he had no way of knowing he would be shot and killed.

The penalty for shooting a police dog needs to be severe. Personally I believe that shooting ANY dog, pet or working, without just cause should be grounds for life in prison, but animal rights issues aside, the dog is an extension of the officer. If the suspect shot the officer in the arm, you'd consider it right to shoot back - this is no different. Also, these dogs are highly skilled and it costs thousands of dollars to train them.

Police officer with loyal, highly trained dog vs. gangbanger scum? No contest as to which lives are more valuable.

[anotherdrew]

150. send the dog in to be shot so they will then be free to fire away

what did they think was going to happen to the dog?

How is dealing with human criminals a dogs responsibility? If this is so necessary how did we get by for SO long without using such a disgusting tactic? Once the idea would be to siege the guy 'til he came out exhausted hungry and willing to talk, but we're too busy for that now, just send the sacrificial dog in then... "unload yer clips boys!"

Granted this guy was a nut to think he's going to survive by running into some dumb place with a gun and thinking he's going to get away from the cops? I doubt he expected to survive, was this more 'suicide by cop'? What the hell is wrong that there are so many severely fucked-up people running around with guns? It's just nuts.

Why doesn't anyone even care anymore? What is the story about this guy? why was he running from cops with a gun? who was he? Many people seem far more concerned about a dead dog than a dead human being... or does he give up his humanity when he runs from a cop with a gun?

[superconnected]

171. I worked at a police dept, a court house, and a jail

It's most likely he was the bad guy if he was running from the cops and shooting their dog.

[anotherdrew]

155. "low life scum" he knew he was so labeled from day one

maybe that's why he decided to say fuck-you to societies laws and make war on this oh so cultured civilization that's just a bunch of hypocrites. get used to it folks, 'cause there's a lot more like this one out there, maybe you can round up all the low life scums and put them in death camps next? what a bunch a assholes.

[Psephos]

165. What do you recommend we do with people like that?

[anotherdrew]

169. not a simple answer, but we shouldn't just say, "he deserved it"

It's a rough situation but prison is 'supposed' to be about rehabilitation, not 'punishment' that only serves to drive them further away. Especially these days when the majority of the punishment factor is informal and done by the other inmates. You wouldn't put a dog in a kennel if you saw that dog being savaged by the other dogs in the cage would you? We put more thought into training dogs than into rehabilitating human lives. It's gonna take a mature and serious political movement to get away from just knee-jerk 'tough on crime' BS. It's gonna take a real democratic party and it's gonna take some time.

[Psephos]

179. Agreed, but there's more to it

I run into the same problem as you just did. We have a strong notion of what not to do, but have real difficulty suggesting what we should do. I'm all for "mature and serious political movement" but what we need are specifics.

There's an assumption among most of us on the left that prison is a chance to rehabilitate criminals. Yet among the broader public whether or not prison is supposed to be about rehab instead of punishment depends on who you ask. (For the record, I strongly favor rehab, but I don't see a lot of evidence it works very well even when it's been tried in earnest.) Many others feel prison's main function is to keep criminals off the street.

As regards this gunman incident, I can say for certain that the dude should have thrown down his weapon after seeing a bunch of armed cops surrounding him and an amped-up dog coming in to get him. At that moment, it's no longer about social constructions of justice, it's about either living or dying. It says plenty that when his moment came, the gunman lacked the ability to make the decision that would save his own life.

Peace.

[anotherdrew]

180. yes

Ok, back to the subject of what to do with such folks.

Some meager ideas:
how about probation and relocation with job and a place to live. Send them to learn a skill working on a job-site, maybe after some basic training type education situation to break them out of the criminal-lifestyle world. The key is to have something to go to. Warehousing in prison is dangerous and only makes criminals more dangerous and knowledgeable about how to be a life-long criminal. How about reform-schools for adults with on-site housing, and limited freedom to leave 'til they've shown good behavior.

Some medical care and psychological work would need to be done as well, to make as sure as possible that a particular person isn't dangerously psychotic or just violence prone.

Maybe the jobs could be like WPA style stuff, work that needs done but that there is no great profit to be made from (so private enterprise won't do it).

Of course, I think anyone, not just criminals should be able to present themselves at a state employment office and if nothing can be found in the area, they should be able to get assistance moving to an area where a job is available and/or there should be some basic jobs provided by the government to do. Maybe some pre-job training but mostly on-the-job training. This would end the practice of employers saying, "I can't find any Americans to do this work"

[superconnected]

170. he had a choice to over come it like the rest of the poor people

who made it a point of working - albeit low wage jobs, instead of stealing.

Poor people are just as, if not more, aware of right and wrong.

No he shouldn't have been killed, but, I don't have mercy for thieves. And if he shot at the police mans dog, why wouldn't he shoot at the police man. The suspect was armed and shooting, they better dang well shoot him.

[Andromeda]

158. Police dogs are police officers...

and are given the same status as any human police officer.

I think the SOB got what he deserved. I love dogs, particularly German Shepherds, so I have no sympathy for the perp.

[YouthInAsia]

181. I'm just gonna say this: If some piece of crap SHOT my dog,

I might seriously be foreced to kill the guy. If I didnt, it would take a GREAT deal of restraint on my part. But I think I would loose my mind and kill the guy.