Boy's last words: 'What's going on?'

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-kidsdead29.html

They moved here with a mission -- to build a Christian community for Bulgarians who had settled in Chicago.

Nikolai Vasilev was the pastor and his wife, Tonya, was the Sunday school teacher. Together they nurtured an evangelical community in the northwest suburbs and created their own family. They had three children and survived the death of one of them in a 2000 fire.

Wednesday night, Nikolai came home to find his two remaining children, a 9-year-old son and 3-year-old daughter, stabbed to death -- some 500 times -- and his wife bathed in blood, a source close to the investigation said. snip

"The boy looks up, sees his sister all bloody, and asked the mother, "What's going on? . . . The mother then attacked the boy. The boy runs from her, flees to the first floor, where she catches up with him, and she then alternates between attacking the boy and the girl.''

more

[asthmaticeog]

1. That's unbeleievably tragic.

When a mother could *snap* like that and take her own kids' lives in such a gruesome manner, I'm just at a loss to understand it on any level. I hope Mr. Vasilev finds the strength to endure this.

[moobu2]

2. The mom was afraid someone would sexually molest her children

so she butchered them.

"The motive is bizarre. . . . The mother feared people in the new religion were going to sexually molest these children,'' the source said."

[Walt Starr]

3. That's not the headline

I suggest you change it before your post gets locked.

[NNN0LHI]

10. It was the headline when I posted it. I can't control what happens later

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=tus&q=Boy%27s+last+words%3A+%27What%27s+going+on%3F%27&btnG=Search+News

Boy's last words: 'What's going on?'
Chicago Sun-Times, IL - 5 hours ago
... "The boy looks up, sees his sister all bloody, and asked the mother, "What's going on? . . . The mother then attacked the boy. The ...

[Dhalgren]

4. What is up with all of these wacko Christians killing each other?

What, is this the third or fourth incident of some evangelical or fundamentalist murders in the past few months? They attended a southern bible college - red flag there, as for as I'm concerned. This is really sad and such a pointless waste. Why are people to drawn to these cults? Why have they always been?

[Turley]

5. Why do you call it a cult?

They started a church to minister to the Bulgarian immigrant community. Why is that a cult in your eyes?

I'm an athiest, but I certainly would never suggest religionists have in any way some kind of monopoly on such mental breakdowns and/or violent outbursts. These things happen all the time in every social group.

[NNN0LHI]

15. Here is the definition of a cult

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=cult

Main Entry: cult
Pronunciation: 'k<
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere to cultivate -- more at WHEEL
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

more

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[reprobate]

23. All religons are cults, by definition.

[Roland99]

7. It's not just Christians. Didn't you read the article?

The source said it was not clear what set off the stabbing, but added that the mother had been treated for mental illness for "some years.''

The woman was mentally ill. Her religion wasn't the motivating factor.

[LisaL]

19. Well, the child killing mothers tend to be

very religious, don't they? Andrea Yates, Deanna Laney, and now this one.
Clearly, religions plays some sort of a role in them murdering their children.

[janx]

20. There are many more than those three. n/t

[Roland99]

21. Mental illness/post-partum depression plays the role

And, I seriously doubt that only white Christian women are the ones killing kids like this. I'd bet my last dime it happens to women of other races/ethnicity, too. But, we're not going to hear about that.

[booksenkatz]

25. Don't forget the gal who chopped off her toddler's arms

I don't recall her name or location, but she, too, was full of the Holy Ghost when cops arrived.

[DulceDecorum]

17. No comment

[DARE to HOPE]

6. Postpartum psychosis...I'll betcha...

This is an EPIDEMIC, folks!!

Lack of omega-3's and B vitamins for the new brains of the infants, leaves the mother absolutely bereft of these! Add the drugs and --bingo!--psychosis which can be suicidal or homicidal. We are seeing this over and over! Someone do something!!

Add coconut oil and a weekly can of sardines, along with a daily B vitamin supplement, and this WILL NOT OCCUR!!

Oh, I am so sad for them all. Especially that bright little new American boy. :-(

[Straight Shooter]

9. Postpartum? I'm not so sure. The girl was three years old.

But maybe there is something about being too immersed in evangelical ways (or any other restrictive organization) that brings out the worst in depression. For example, a young woman in our neighborhood had a baby. Shortly afterward, she refused to "go out in the evil world."

Apparently her maternal instinct to protect her baby, coupled with the messages the church was sending her about the moral decay of society, turned her from a shy woman into a total recluse who found solace only in her husband, friends who came to visit occasionally, and the Bible. I really wonder about the effect it will eventually have on her son.

[Shallah Kali]

16. I could see how religious paranoia might set someone unstable off

It be seen as confirmation by the mentally ill person that they were right to afraid. Instead of being healing and comforting it might drive them further into despair.

According to NIH post-partum depression can last for years although it does not indicate how common it is for women to experience psychotic breaks long after the birth:

MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia: Post-partum depression
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/007215.htm

[hyphenate]

34. This also manifests itself

in the evangelicals' desire to home school. They are afraid of the influences from the outside world.


however, having said that, I also know that there are other reasons for homeschooling, other reasons why mothers (especially, but lots of fathers, too) crack under a given amount of pressure, and all those other things. I've taken to including disclaimers in posts because too often comments can be misconstrued as being generalizations by some who like to argue every single point in a post, regardless of the intent.

[booksenkatz]

8. Why do people let mentally ill people care for their children?

Is it too much for me to ask that sick people not take care of children? Apparently so. I cannot abide reading about cases like this. What can we, as a society, do about this? Crying my eyes out here. I can stand just about anything in this world except seeing children suffering. Stories like this are just one of the reasons I am an agnostic who leans Deist: I don't think we can prove the existence of God, but if there is one, he doesn't give a rat's ass about us. We're on our own, folks. And you can only hope that you are not a child who is in the care of a psychotic mom or dad. Others were not born so lucky.
:cry:

[janx]

11. There was another one in Colorado Springs last weekend:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/4412934/detail.html

[0007]

13. I was born at Memorial Hospital on 1933

[Ysolde]

12. Sweet Jesus!

When are we going to treat mental illness appropriately in this country? How many lives have to be destroyed before we wake up and do something? I have 2 children almost the exact ages of these 2! This stuff makes me crazy!

She had been receiving treatment for mental illness for a long time. But what kind? I know quite a few folks that believe that religious counseling can solve everything. If that's the only "treatment" she was receiving, then that's part of the problem. Religion can be a salve, but it cannot fix chemical imbalances!

[LisaL]

18. We don't know how to cure mental illness.

You can treat it, but it obviously doesn't always work.

[girl gone mad]

29. I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

These women need real psychological help, and their religion could be the reason they aren't getting it.

There is an underlying ideology, particularly among evangelicals, that says belief in God and acceptance of Jesus is enough to cure people of their mental defects. Also, psychology itself is often frowned upon, and conflicting attitudes toward homosexuality and child rearing have caused a rift.

My sister's husband sometimes tells her "you just need to read the Bible more" when she's upset about something. My sister has the wherewithal to look other places, but I can imagine that Religion's failure to provide answers might be devastating to some.

[Wright Patman]

33. * is pushing the New Freedom

initiative so you are with him on this. It would screen just about everyone in the country, including all the kids, and then refer them to his favorite pharmaceutical company contributors for their prescribed dosages of happy pills.

It sounds too much like something out of "Brave New World" for me to go along with. No one is going to give me Soma. I prefer to face reality. I am the dreaded "reality-based" person who objects to the insanity and criminality which has taken over our government.

[CornField]

14. If she is insane, I hope she stays that way

Can you imagine waking up to discover that you are responsible for this?

I heard on the television this morning that the man was initially arrested and has since been released. I don't know how a husband can be held "blameless" in such situations. If she had been receiving treatment for a mental illness, the husband had to have been aware that his wife was not herself. At the very least, his lack of care for the well-being of his own children is neglect.

[daleo]

22. Religion and mental health

I think there is a very tangled causality issue when talking about religious belief and mental illness. In many cases, mentally ill people seem to be drawn to religion for solace, companionship, understanding or in hope of a miraculous cure. I a much smaller number of cases people are probably sent over the edge by factors inherent in religion - fantasy, belief in the supernatural, invocations of guilt, magnetic personalities, etc.

[geniph]

30. I agree - sometimes it's a chicken and egg thing

and mind you, I'm not saying the mentally ill are drawn to religion, I'm saying they're drawn to the charismatic-type religions - and those are the religions least likely to believe their members should receive treatment for mental illness, because they're the ones most likely to believe that faith alone can heal anything. It becomes a horribly vicious cycle.

Look at the pictures of a rally for one of the really hardcore whackjob fundy churches sometime...the people have the shiny blank stares of zealots. I've seen those stares before - on locked wards.

[Shallah Kali]

24. Article on why Mothers kill and the religion connection

Mental illness is often at root when parents kill
http://www.gazette.com/display.php?id=1307241&secid=1

Nearly every case of a mother killing her children begins with plans to commit suicide, said Michelle Oberman, a professor at Santa Clara University School of Law and author of the book “Mothers Who Kill Their Children.”

“They become convinced the only way to keep the children safe is to take the children with them,” Oberman said. They decide “it’s the best solution for the children.”

SNIP

In many cases, the mother holds deep religious convictions about an afterlife. In nearly all cases, the mother suffers from depression, schizophrenia or another mental disorder, and is detached from other people.

SNIP

“You don’t tend to see a really engaged and active extended network of family and friends.”

Whatever the exact cause I think people who let mothers they know are mentally ill go without help and monitering should be charged with criminal neglect.

[420inTN]

26. UPDATE: Mother Charged in Stabbing Deaths of Kids

By NICOLE ZIEGLER DIZON, Associated Press Writer 12 minutes ago

HOFFMAN ESTATES, Ill. - The mother of a 9-year-old boy and 3-year-old girl who were fatally stabbed more than 100 times each inside their suburban Chicago home was charged Friday with two counts of first-degree murder, authorities said.

Tonya Vasilev, 34 — a heavy bandage covering her left wrist — appeared in court Friday afternoon and answered the judge's questions in a soft, shaking voice. A public defender was appointed to represent her. The judge was expected to decide later Friday whether to set bond.

Investigators believe she was at home Wednesday night when Christian and Gracie Vasilev were killed. The children's father and a friend who had been living with the family discovered the bloody scene when they arrived home that evening.

Police found the boy lying just inside the front door and carried him outside, where they tried in vain to resuscitate him, said Hoffman Estates Police Lt. Rich Russo.

more, full story here

[NNN0LHI]

27. I have a hundred dollar bill in my pocket that says this woman...

...believed in spanking her kids before this incident happened. Any takers?

Don

[Cooley Hurd]

28. No, I won't touch that bet...

You're probably spot on...:thumbsup:

[woosh]

31. What's the point of these stories on this board?

Children tragedies? They are sensational and lend nothing to the dialog here.

You can see this stuff in Fox local news. Why clog this board with it? it's not like there is a lack of coverage.

[Maine-ah]

32. what about that fire in 2000?

I wonder if she had anything to do with that.

[NNN0LHI]

35. Its being reinvestigated - Mom denied bond in slaying of kids

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-kidsdead30.html

<snip>Hill said Vasilev had difficulty coping with Gabrielle's death -- a death that Elk Grove Village police said they are reinvestigating in the wake of the fatal stabbings of her two other children.