Federal judge denies emergency request by Schiavo's parents

[fryguy]

Federal judge denies emergency request from Terri Schiavo's parents to reconnect her feeding tube

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050325/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

A federal judge on Friday refused to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, yet another setback for the parents of the brain-damaged woman in their battle against her husband to keep her alive.

For a second time, U.S. District Judge James Whittemore ruled against the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who had asked him to grant their emergency request to restore her feeding tube while he considers a lawsuit they filed

<more>

[Habibi]

1. Here's a link to the yahoo story

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050325/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

[fryguy]

2. thanks, just update OP - n/t

[Delphinus]

3. OK ...

so options are all gone now, right? Terri can now (soon) rest in peace?

[fryguy]

6. not quite, they can now appeal THIS ruling

so its back to the 11th Cir. and another bite at the Supreme Court apple....

[durablend]

7. Don't bet on it

[Solar]

4. I hate to appear crass

I hate to appear crass on such a serious topic as this, but they seriously need to start numbering all of these rulings and appeals. Its getting too confusing to keep track of all of them.

[fryguy]

10. not crass, practical

i did a lexis search yesterday for the procdural history of the case and was quickly lost in the path....this is, after all, the THIRD time that they've "lost" in the federal district court.

[truth2power]

40. Not crass at all. When I clicked on this post just now

I had to check the date to determine this was new information and not yesterday's post. Can't keep up.

I was reading the GAL report yesterday, and I don't understand why someone hasn't been able to get through to the parents, to show them the CI scan and kindly explain to them that Terri no longer has a cebral cortex and what that means.

This makes the case, as far as I'm concerned. And if, after all this time they haven't been able to accept that, then I wonder if there isn't something else going on here, i.e. the parents are trying to work through their guilt for something. Or maybe I'm just being too analytical. :shrug:

[drdon326]

5. Parents are batting 0 for 23

just dont understand why he just doesnt give up his guardianship to her parents and walk away.

[Connie_Corleone]

8. He is honoring his wife's wish.

The parents have said that if she had a living well, they would still keep her alive, no matter what.

That's why.

[Betty]

9. I think it's because he doesn't want her to spend another 15 years

like this.

[bowens43]

11. because he has respect for his wife

and intends to see her wishes carried out.

[fryguy]

12. a little thing called commitment to a wife's wishes

its what she wanted and he's striving to uphold her wishes

[drdon326]

13. Sorry all....I know I'm in the minority here and apparently nationwide

it just bothers me that the MAIN person claiming she would not to live like this is her husband who ...

a.First announced her wishes AFTER the malpractice settlement

b.has started a new family and one HAS to question his loyalties.

Its a dirty case.

[fryguy]

14. hold on a second though

don't paint the husband as being out for money or disingenuous.

first of all, the money that was won in the malpractice suit has been spent to keep terri alive for the past 15 years. there is very little of the settlement left.

in addition, if he were doing it for money he was offered a million dollars from someone to give up his guardianship of her - and he refused

and as for "starting a new family", it has been 15 years, i don't begrudge the man for trying to maintain a semblance of a life. i would hope that if i were in the same situation my wife would move on with her life as well. it is not like he was cheating on her during her life (conscious life) and it wasn't until about 5 years ago that he began dating the person he is currently with.

[drdon326]

18. Well...

it was a million dollar settlement with $ 300,000 going directly to MS....and her care now is paid by medicaid.

I agree that he was offered money to walk away and he refused.

I have noooo problem in him starting a family....I just think that calls his guardianship into question.

And I feel nothing but heartfelt sympathy for the parents.

[bunkerbuster1]

34. It takes two to start a family.

I love how so many jump on Mr. Schiavo's "decision" to father two children--shock, horror!--out of wedlock.

Obviously his current partner knew what she was getting into, and must feel a commitment from this man who is, by any sensible definition save the legal one, a widower.

I see nothing immoral nor unethical about his course of action; indeed, the more I learn about Michael Schiavo's choices, the more principled a man he seems.

[Tansy_Gold]

42. I agree

The fact that Michael has another partner who has stayed with him through all this is, imho, pretty indicative of the kind of guy he is.

[Demit]

16. I'm glad I don't have to question his loyalties.

I don't have trouble believing a person can love two people at the same time. Or that a man would feel a deep loyalty to the woman he married.

If that's what you picture yourself doing, in the same situation, fine. You can speak for yourself in saying "if I started a family with a living woman that would mean I am being disloyal to Terri". But you are passing judgment on someone else here based on what you would do. That's kind of sad.

[drdon326]

23. I think everyone is speaking for themselves.

eom

[Gunit_Sangh]

17. Have you read the GAL report?

Terri's Law, passed by the FL legislature in 2003, that gave Brother Jeb (B.J.) the authority to re-insert the feeding tube also required him to appoint a Guardian Ad Litem to investigate the medical/legal circumstances of this case.

(You can find the document at findlaw.com if you want to read it. It's 38 pages I believe)

In that report, the GAL revealed that the Schindler's actually encouraged Michael to start dating and even played match maker for him. Now he is being critized for doing what they encouraged him to do.

If you've never faces a situation like this, it's impossible to understand what it's like. I, for one, refuse to pass judgement.

Besides, if having sex with a person who is not your spouse is a factor in deciding competence, half of congress would be fired.

[Daphne08]

28. I've read the entire GAL (Wolfson) Report

and Michael has been taking care of her consistently. At least, that's the way I read it.

The .pdf is here: http://floridahealthinfo.hsc.usf.edu/TheresaSchiavoFinalReport1December2003.pdf

[ZR2]

19. It's a very dirty case

Just remember, these are the very same parents that thought the husband was doing a great job as her gardian untill he refused to give them a portion of the malpractice suit money.

[Evergreen Emerald]

30. I don't think it is a dirty case

I think it is very cut and dry (and likely common when these tragedys happen)

[Triana]

36. sounds like they're 'good Christian folk' to me...

...these people are offa their rockers. Selfish, greedy, deluded...and I realize all Christian folks are *not* like that. But the ones who are, like the Schindlers - make a really bad name for the rest of them.

[drdon326]

37. Thats really not fair....

these are people that love their daughter and you dont know what they are going thru.

There really is no reason for that.

[Triana]

51. I understand that...

...however they are very deluded and out of touch with Reality. Based on what I've seen and read, they've used their daughter's condition to be very manipulative of Michael, the public, and the government (this is my opinion based on what I've seen and read).

And Micheal - not them - IS Terri's legal representative in all this. (and this is *fact*).

[drdon326]

61. I never heard the parents....,

say anything about MS.....the mother keeps saying the same thing and i'm paraphrasing..."i'm asking the courts or whover to help save my daughter from death".

(As for guardian,yes, MS is the legal guardian those "perfect" courts have ruled.)

[Boo Boo]

20. Better call all those judges and let 'em know!

How could they be so stupid not to take that into account? How could all those judges, and a special review ordered by Jebby be so incredibly incompetent, and stupid, not to see such an obvious...

Oh, wait. They did take that into account. Terri's wishes were confirmed by other family members/friends.

As far as loyalty goes: there's nothing stopping the guy from walking away. He could give Terri's parents custody. I'm sure it would be a relief to his current GF and children.

Sounds pretty loyal to me.

[drdon326]

33. The government (thru the courts) have decided this case....

i really hope they get it right.....

and remember people have received the death penality by these same courts who were later found to be innoceent.

[Heidi]

21. If I'm ever in a situation similar to Terri Schiavo,

it may well be that my husband will be the MAIN person claiming that I would not want to live like that, since I have, indeed, made this clear to him.

Further:
a. I wouldn't care whether he announces my wishes before, during, or after any malpractice settlement that might or might not occur. My last wishes are about me, rather than what the rest of the U.S. might want for me.
b. If I'm in a persistent vegetative state for 15 years, I sincerely hope my husband moves on with his life, and if his happiness includes meeting a new partner and starting a family, then that's also among my "final wishes."

(Edit for clarity.)

[Suziq]

22. Whoa!

He has been by Terri's side for over 15 years! He obviously loves Terri very much. He tried for many years to get therapy and after all options were exhaused, he now wants to honor his wife's wishes.

There is no money left from the malpractice settlement. It was used to pay for her treatments.

What's wrong with Michael seeking support from others? Imagine going through this situation alone. He started dating at the insistence of Terri's family, who believed it was time for him to move on with his life.

Have you seen the pictures of Terri before this happened? She was a beautiful girl, full of life. She is now a shell of that person and should be allowed to start a new life in heaven.



:hippie:

[Mountainman]

24. I don't see the significance of the timing of him saying that she would

not want to live on life support. Also his "claim" was judged valid my numerous courts.

It makes no difference when he said it. Also, he could have walked away from this thing and turned it over to the parents.

No claim of dishonesty or cruelty on the part of Micheal Schiavo has held any substance. They only started to be manufactured recently to try to come up with some reason to stall the removal of the feeding tube and to throw dirt on those who don't agree with them.

There has been no reputable or creditable or legal professional or law enforcement person claiming any wrong doing by Michael Schiavo.

[rodeodance]

62. I think the timing had more to do with Michael saying to himself-it is

time to let her go. It took a long time for him to say that to himself.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

41. Why?

He's never received any money from the settlement -- it's all gone to pay for her care and to for his legal battles with her family.

The fact is that he could have accepted millions (more than the malpractice settlement) years ago, divorced his wife, and walked away from all this. The fact that he's fighting this hard, to me, is proof that he's a stand-up guy who's trying to do the right thing.

You've been listening to the right-wing smear merchants.

[drdon326]

43. Riiiight......

he received $ 300,000 of the $ 1,000,000.......i havent seen any definitive proof of where the other $ 700,000 went. (You do know medicaid is paying for hospice).

Also, Tom Harken and Jesse Jackson must also be listening to the same rwers.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

46. First of all you are using selective reasoning. BS

You forget to mention in your post that someone offered him 1 million dollars on the condition if he would pass over the guardianship, and Michael Schiavo refused. If you're going to make the argument that he's doing it for the money THEN ALSO INCLUDE THE OTHER SIDE.

[drdon326]

48. I acknowledged that in another post.

I dont think hes doing it for the money....and i acknowledge that he might want to do what he thinks is right.

Can you acknowledge that courts can make mistakes?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

52. WOW...you just digged yourself a bigger hole

You said you acknowledge it in another post. IF YOU KNEW HE WASN"T DOING IT FOR THE MONEY then why the HECK did you bring up about him keeping the 700,000 crap? WOW...you're attacking Micheal even though you KNOW THE TRUTH. Wtf is that man.

[drdon326]

56. ugggh

I said money is NOT the motivation.... now.So what is his motivation?
It could be what he says, i agree.

I also said that he never mentioned his wifes wishes until after the malpractrice suit was settled. Care to comment?


ALSO....I have been chastized for saying MS decided this and alot of people stated the COURTS DECIDED....OK...considering the courts have made horrendous mistakes before with regard to the death penality, why are you so sure the courts are so right in allowing her to die ?
Care to comment?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

59. People have the right to die with dignity

You said, "I also said that he never mentioned his wifes wishes until after the malpractrice suit was settled. Care to comment?"

Um perhaps he thought there was a chance that she might live? BUT IT HAS BEEN 15 YEARS. Her Cerebral Cortex is basically all fluid. She is basically a husk. People have the right to die with dignity. Michael Schiavo is her guardian, who would know best. Have you seen Million Dollar Baby? Maybe you should.

Also you said,"ALSO....I have been chastized for saying MS decided this and alot of people stated the COURTS DECIDED....OK...considering the courts have made horrendous mistakes before with regard to the death penality, why are you so sure the courts are so right in allowing her to die ?
Care to comment?"

First of all you are ignoring the fact that SHE is BRAIN DEAD. Also you are ignoring the fact she is being kept ALIVE ARTIFICIALLY. If we went the natural course she would die without that feeding tube. You are saying that the courts are wrong and that she could live on her own. DUDE SHE CAN"T LIVE ON HER OWN, THATS WHY SHE NEEDS A TUBE TO LIVE.

Let her die in peace.

[fryguy]

60. what "mistake" are you alluding to?

first of all, there has been more due process afforded to this case than most death penalty cases ever get.

and what is the mistake here? that she is not in a persistent vegetative state as countless doctors and experts have testified to or that michael schiavo is not adhering to her wishes?

with regard to the first, the medical opinions of the doctors seem to be in near agreement (unless you count Dr. Frist and Gov. Bush's learned opinions) that she is in a persistent vegetative state, that she has lost all cognitive brain function, and the chance of her recovery is non-existent.

as for the second, it has been fully litigated, re-litigated, and re-re-litigated. the courts have, without exception, found that michael schiavo has clearly demonstrated by a preponderance of the evidence that it was his wife's wish to never be kept alive in such a condition. no amount of appeals has changed this finding.

so while courts have, and do, make mistakes in death penalty cases, those are a whole different ball game than what is the standard to be applied in the schiavo case. the comparison is not appropriate.

[fryguy]

57. sure courts make mistakes

but there have been 23 rulings thus far - and all finding the same thing. so what you're asking for is a judge to now be an activist jurist and take the position that the multitude of doctors and experts thus far are wrong and side with the opinions of Dr. Frist and Gov. Bush who are not convinced Schiavo is in a persistent veggitative state....

and what about the fundamental issue of this even being in the federal courts now? are you in favor of permitting government intervention in personal matters in the future? take a moment and consider the ramifications of that decision. this is a matter to be decided between the family and, short of agreement there, the state courts - not the federal government.

[fryguy]

50. in a word, you're wrong

Of the $1 million settlement, Michael Schiavo received $300,000 for loss of consortium and the other $700,000 went to a Terry Schiavo's guardianship account.

In addition, Medicare is not paying for anything - it is all being done privately:

<snip>

Gary Karr, spokesman for the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, said the agency hasn't seen a request for payment of any kind for Schiavo's care in three years.

"The care is being paid for privately," he said.

<more>

Finally, the costs for her care is between $150 and $200 a day, over the 15 years of her residency there the cost is, therefore, between $821,000 and $1.1 million. So basically there is nothing left of the original medical malpractice award.

See here for details - http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0503240262mar24,1,6467255.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

If you have any facts, with reputable citations, to the contrary please offer them. Otherwise you're just speculating and towing the right to lifer's and conservative talk radio's line.

[HamstersFromHell]

53. It's all been posted here before...

The portion of the settlement designated for Terri's care was placed in a trust fund and overseen by the court...Michael couldn't touch it if he wanted to.

Someone here a few days back linked to where it was said his own legal bills were over $350,000.....so much for his "getting rich".

If you want to make your case against him off circumstantial evidence, then let's go after the parents as well, since they filed for bankruptcy in 1989, the year before Terri's heart attack and subsequent slip into a PVS. It was also noted in testimony that it was her parents who turned against Mike when he didn't agree to give them part of the settlement.

So now their "cause" is being financed by the extreme right wing fundies, along with some pro bono work by some of the attorneys involved. Wonder how they manage to support themselves while spending the kind of money it takes to have a case heard at the supreme court level not one, but 3 times now. I don't think legal services are cheap, even if you buy it in case (24 pack) lots.

So now who looks like they are in it for the money?

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

58. It went into a trust fund....

Here's a tip. Try to have a fundamental grasp of the issue before you start slinging accusations around.

And if Tom Harken or Jesse Jackson have made any public statements regarding Michael Schiavo's fitness to determine this issue, those statements are apparently impervious to a Google Search.

[sescob]

26. Because he feels just as strongly as they do about it?

Why is that so far-fetched to believe? On CNN last night there was a woman from KY that had the SAME thing happen to her. Her husband was in a car accident and ended up in a PVS w/ a feeding tube. After a few years, she wanted to take him off the tube because he had told her he would NOT want to live that way. His parents ALSO fought her in court over the decision AND the Gov stepped in just like Jeb has done. In the end, she won and was able to let her husband die in peace. She said she couldn't live with herself knowing that her husband had made his wishes known and she igonored them.

[oldcoot]

65. Why don't the parents give up?

This is one of the questions I have never seen asked. Why is it that Michael Schiavo is the one expected to give up instead of the parents?

[Wright Patman]

15. "Christian Identity" Pastor Pete Peters

agrees with most DUers on this. He has long been on the "hate list" of the Southern Poverty Law Center. He is either a white separatist or white supremacist, depending on which critic is analyzing his belief system.

Peters applauds the control Michael Schiavo has over Terri as one small step in a return to patriarchal values in this country and a blow to the feminists.

He then quotes Scripture. 'Christ is head of the church and the husband is head of the wife.' The wife loses all rights in submission to the husband at the time of the marriage and cuts all ties to her blood kin after marriage. That is his concept and this case is reinforcing it.

He carefully avoided (or was not aware of) the adultery issue. I wouldn't be a bit surprised, though, if he longs for a return to the days of the Old Testament when polygamy was common, although never "blessed" by God.

[Connie_Corleone]

25. That's just plain stupid.

Comparing DU'ers who agree with Michael honoring his wife wishes to a "christian identity" idiot is the most stupid thing I've seen posted on DU.

[Lerkfish]

32. agreed. stupid...AND pointless.

[silvermachine]

39. And this is relevant to DU how????

Weirdest post I've seen for some time.

[chopper]

45. on the same tack..

hitler used to use commas. hey - so do you! isn't that interesting?

who cares what some super christian nut-ball thinks about it.

[Bridget Burke]

47. Sorry, you've got it wrong.....

But thanks for introducing us to one of your favorite philosophers.

[oldcoot]

64. Between 70 to 82% of the population agrees with us

Depending on which poll one believes, 70 to 82% of the population agrees with us. I am sure that some white supremacists would agree with us, along with many moderates, conservatives, and feminists.

If Peters believes that this court case will return patriarchal values in this country and be a blow to feminists, then he really has no understanding of the law. If the roles were reversed, Terri Schiavo could make the same decisions for her husband.

Indeed, a ruling favoring the parents would probably be a bigger blow to feminism. Her parents have stated that they would have disregarded her wishes had she let them know that she would not want to live in this condition. If they are willing to ignore her wishes, why should they be trusted to make medical decisions for her?

[Mr. Peanut]

27. Blame Terri's Parents and Siblings

They are in love with the world's attention. If they are as religious as they claim, why wouldn't they want Terri to go to her reward and find peace with her Maker?

[alcuno]

31. Welcome to DU, Mr. Peanut. I was listening to a Catholic priest

and he agrees. For those who believe in an afterlife, death isn't the end. It's being with God. I really wonder about the Christians who spit out the words, "Culture of Death." What are they saying?

[Mr. Peanut]

54. "Culture of Death" are charge words to inflame the fanatics

Thanks for your reply, alcuno.

A friend of mine of nearly 40 years died this Tuesday of lymphoma. He was in a coma. His wife decided to pull the plug and set him free from his torment. Not one person in his family has even hinted that his wife should not have pulled the plug. These things happen every day, probably in the same hospice where Terri is.

Because of Elean Gonzalez, Jeb Bush, the 2000 election, and now the Schindlers-Schiavos, Floridians scare me.

[truthisfreedom]

29. the rating on this story is just not very high. i think the US public is

nearly finished with this story. we all can feel the horrible idea of being trapped as the living dead, kept alive for the purposes of 1] satisfying a family fight, 2] extracting every last dollar of profit from keeping one's heart beating, and 3] mafia political purposes. the sopranos got nothin' on the bushes.

[leetrisck]

35. The judges intervened to give the Republicans

their god (bush) and now their god is hiding in Crawford. Must be careful who one worships

[woodsprite]

38. I just need to say this today....

I am SOOOOO tired of being in Terri's sickroom when so much else has to be addressed with this country. I'm SOOOOO tired of seeing all these nutso religious people who really have no idea what Jesus was even about, let alone practice his teachings.

My father died under a DNR, my mother was talking, thinking (not clearly ALL the time), eating, not in pain, and could have been sustained for awhile (don't know exactly how long) if platelet transfusions were given daily. But, she had severe diabetes, legally blind, very very depressed with her situation, a history of kidney/heart/bp issues and she was not going to get better. Her organs were dying a slow death due to blood that couldn't be processed or used to carry oxygen/nutrients. Eventually, the blood issue she had would have bled her out or killed a major organ, even with the transfusions.

The last time in the hospital was 30 days of daily transfusions, all kinds of testing, screens put in major arteries to prevent blood clots from going into her heart, lungs, brain, all with the thought that we could fix the problem if we could find it -- after all that, the drs. told us they couldn't find the underlying problem so it couldn't be fixed. They tried everything possible, even shipping her blood around the country to other testing centers. WE had to make the decision to let her go.

She was on Medicare, but my Bro and I would have paid our share to keep her on the transfusions if it would have helped, but it wouldn't. For every day we WERE able to "buy" for her, the quality was there, even though it was in the hospital. We communicated, laughed, shared stories, grandchildren visited. When we stopped the transfusions, there was a change in her demeanor. Almost a lightening of her heart, a relief in some way.

I never would have even thought to take this to court to make them keep her on platelets - whether we were paying or Medicare was paying - until something gave out. EVERYONE HAS TO DIE!!! You can either accept it, or not, but either way -- you have to deal with it. I just feel like screaming it to these people! Not that it would help them, but it would sure make me feel better. What gives them the right to literally make a federal case out of something that should have happened long ago with the diagnosis she was given, and something that every single person in this world has to deal with?

They should be at their daughter's side, not fighting in the courts. And if they believe, which they supposedly do, they should be praying for God's will to be done rather than a miracle. That's what that whole line "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven" is all about. We don't know what God's plans are. When you only pray for miracles or favors, sometimes the answer is "NO". It's simple Bible lesson #1. I can't understand how so many supposed "Believers" just don't get it.

OK - I'll climb down off my soapbox now ....

Thanks for letting me vent and get that off my chest!!! :) Yelling at the TV, or giving Hubby an earfull wasn't working for me this morning. ;)

Edit to add: One of the factors we used to decide was that we felt we were using valuable life-saving resources in a futile attempt to prolong the inevitable. At best, it would have bought her a month or two in the hospital, where it could be used in a different situation to give someone their entire life back.

[Tansy_Gold]

44. Thank you, woodsprite, for a beautiful story.

:hug: to you and yours

[Mr_Spock]

49. Are these people - that I am starting to call selfish - appealing

the decision AGAIN?? They are losing my sympathy - and fast :(

[fryguy]

55. Of course they are

in their minds, they're on a mission from god....

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050325/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_142

<snip>

The Schindlers appealed again to the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta to review Whittemore's ruling.

<more>

[rodeodance]

63. they need to say to themselves they left no stone unturned.

[Moderator]

66. locking

updated discussion here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1341098