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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:28 PM
Original message
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 12:16 AM by TruthIsAll
Naysayers have claimed, in response to my earlier postings, that we cannot calculate the binomial probability that over 90% of nearly 100 recorded touchscreen machine incidents would show a switch of Kerry votes to Bush. Their rationale: we cannot assume they were statistically independent events.

Well, we CAN assume independence. The vast majority of these events occurred in different states and/or unique polling locations within a state.

You can be sure they will be back to throw more smoke on this very clear-cut, documented proof of fraud.

Yes, Virginia, they hacked the voting machines.

Let's not even talk about the central tabulators.
Or the destroyed Democratic registrations.
Or the long lines.
Or the bogus recounts.
Or the payoffs.
Or the lack of a voter-verified paper ballot.

Or the fact that 16 states deviated to Bush BEYOND the state exit poll margin of error - a 1 in 19 trillion shot.

The original probability thread:

The EIRS database contains over 40,000 documented incidents:

More, much more...

state county polling_place incident_time desc

Ohio hamilton Caller said that a piece of glass backing prevented he's vote for Kerry This was the only canidate that was blocked by the glass. When he retured later, a poll worker about it, the glass had been changed to not impleade the Kerry vote

Texas Harris 0566-1 Caller said when she voted a straight democratic ticket, the vote did not register for the presidential (Kerry) vote

New York New York County 123rd Street and 7th Avenue All morning Volunteer for Kerry-Edwards was working outside handing out flyers and voters were leaving from this polling site complaining that the machines were not working. They are now having voters use paper ballots. Voters are leaving frustrated without voting.

Washington Snohomish 189th St. & 60th Ave., Lynnwood, WA 11/2/2004 Both caller and her husband said when they pulled up their electronic ballots, Bush was already checked. When they tried to switch it to vote for Kerry, had very difficult time unchecking the Bush box. Ultimately were successful.

Florida Miami-Dade 1st United Methodist Church of Southern Miami, 6565 Red Road 11/2/2004 Voter attempted to vote for Kerry and ballot showed vote for Bush instead; she left poll; she tried to clear it and it wouldn't clear; so she cast vote with Bush instead showing.

Pennsylvania philadelphia 20th & Ontario 2-Nov Part of 1 of 2 machines wasn't lighting up -- wasn't able to vote for Liberatarian or Constitutional party; election judge said voter complained but just voted for Kerry & left.....

Florida Broward 2501 NE 30th street United chruch of christ - Voting machine problem{cr}{newline}- pushed kerry got bush{cr}{newline}- pushed castro got martinex{cr}{newline}- all othes{cr}{newline}- pushed Parrish got Zella{cr}{newline}- accused of not being able to read{cr}{newline}-intimidation

Florida Palm Beach 345 S Congress 10/31/2004 14:00 Went to vote for Kerry and Bush popped up immediately. I called for help. Woman/precinct worker told him to touch screen for Bush and it popped up again for Kerry. Successfully voted for Kerry on second time trying.

Florida Palm Beach 345 S. Congress 10/31/04 2:00 p.m. Went to vote for Kerry and Bush popped up. Immediately called for help. Woman/precinct worker told him to touch screen on Bush and it popped up again for Kerry. Sucessfully voted for Kerry on second time.

Florida Broward 3720 Oakland Pk Blvd 11/2/2004 8:00 Unknown name came up on review screen, Walter F. Browne - after Kerry selected. Asked for help from election's worker, who suggested he do it over. He retried, got same result, and finalized vote without accurate screen.

New Mexico Bernalillo 400 Edith Blvd NE 11/2/2005 9:00 Voting Kerry, Perotka (sp?) comes up. 2 reports made through moveon to hotline

Ohio franklin 529 sawyer 9:00 AM machine not working for kerry monitors whispering

Florida Broward 69 R 4:50 PM Voter pressed "Kerry" on machine, but another name was indicated on the summary page. Voter was able to review & change the vote satisfactorily.

Florida Miami-Dade 8400 NW 25th Avenue 11/2/2004 In precinct 249 we are getting reports that voters are pushing Kerry button, but Bush keep's coming up.

Florida Palm Beach 900 N Seacrest 2 Nov at 10:30 AM While voting for Presidential candidate Kerry - had problems with accessing his name. Bush's name kept popping and taking "priority". On the review however it showed Kerry so voter completed vote.

New York new york 94 e 1st st 7:30 Jenny wanted to vote for Kerry under the working families party, not the democratic party, however row e of the voting machine (for working families party) was jammed. Instead of offering a paper ballot, the poll workers instructed Jenny to vote for Kerry under the democratic party, which she didn't want to do. Eventually, she was able to unjam the machine so that she could vote according to her preference, but her sister voted on the same machine and had the same problem, so she's afraid that it's going to jam again. Jenny said that a lot of the rows for the smaller parties seemed jammed or "tight."

Illinois Cook 99th & 54th Avenue 9:55 a.m. CST Punched Kerry Edwards, things chad for Bush-Cheney was punched on the actual card. Punched Obama, and Obama was punched out.

California Los Angeles Avondale - Warner Center, card room, 22222 Victory Blvd 5:45 The names of "John Kerry" and "John Edwards" have been scratched off on the punch card ballot at one of the stations

Florida Palm Beach Banyon Creek Elem. School 11/2/04, 1:10pm Selected John Kerry/ green check came up in George Bush's name. Called over poll worker and they got creen to read John Kerry. She stated "it made me wonder if the machines are rigged."

New York Nassau Bayless School, Woodbury Rd. 11/2/04, 9 am Someone defaced the punchcard voting machine (whited out Kerry's name). Husband was 54th in line and someone did it before he voted. Caller reported incident to Democratic poll watcher at the polls.

Florida Palm Beach Boyton Beach St. John's Baptist Church 11/2/04 5pm Caller has difficulty reading, so she invited me to accompanyher into the voting booth. Three times she touched the Kerry/Edwards frame on her screen and the machine did not highlight her selection. She was only able to correct this on the final screen that listed her selections. teh "change" directions were very small and easy to miss at the top of the screen. Caller was able to vote for Kerry/Edwards usiing this screen. Which directed her back to the original screen presidential vote screen. This time the machine accepted her selection.

Georgia Douglas Bright Star Church 11/2/2005 11:20 Every time hit "John Kerry" name "x" would jump to "George Bush" happened two times

Georgia Douglas Bright Star Methodist Church, 3715 Bright Star Road, Douglasville 11/2/2004 Pushed Kerry Edwards, the x went to Bush/Cheney, she tried this three times, went to next page, went back to Kerry page, then re-entered Kerry and the X went to Kerry. Also, message says need picture ID.

California Los Angelos Castle Heights Elementary School 11/2/2004 Voter could not get stylus to punch through card. Tried 3 times unsuccessfully until asked to be moved to a different location. Voter is concerned that other people are having this problem and don't realize it. Voter attempted to complain to county officials but can't get through.

Georgia Lowetta? Central Education Copler Gym, IGO/ MLK Blvd 7:15 Voting machine registered for wrong candidate. Concerned that the voting machine was automatically reelecting Bush when people cast votes for Kerry.

Florida Volusia city Island 8:10 a.m., 11/2/04 Caller lives in Daytona Beach in Volusia County. Caller and grandson a first-time voter, voted early this weekend at City Island. They report the following:{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}1) Many African-Americans were present in line, particularly from Bethune Cookman College. Bethune had put buses together to get students to the polls.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}2) At least 3 police officers were present at the polling place. One was a deputy sherriff. One was a correctional officer. The correctional officer was huge, at least 6'3" and imposing. The officer, for whatever reason, was blocking the line. When the line entered the polling place, the officer would stand at the door way and block people from entering. He was holding people who were affiliated w/Kerry from entering the polling place, at least for 5 minutes. Eventually, Kerry voters were allowed inside. The CO was "approving" toward those voters openly affiliated with Bush. The police presence was confusing and intimidating the voters, including Grandson. One woman who was a Kerry voter was blocked by the CO -- he actually held his hands and arms out to block her and then when she stopped, he turned his back to her to block her further. {cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}3) When voters, excluding Grandson, finally got to vote -- there were massive "glitches." Grandson was told that the phone lines were experiencing trouble and that not all lines got a connection. Voters could not vote electronically, apparently. They voted manually. However, for each person who showed up to vote, they had to verify by phone that the voter could vote. Once they were "verified", they could vote.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}4) Caller's family wonders whether their vote will even count. For reasons that apparantly have been noted in the news, but not explained, the county is recounting these votes. No one has said why or what has happened. Caller's family wonders why wasn't early vote simply shout down? At least they could have voted today.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}5) Caller noticed while waiting 1 1/2 hours for her grandson that Deputy Sherriff was effectively preventing Kerry workers from working. Pulled up and parked a huge truck next to them and obscured Kerry workers from voters. Bush owrkers then put a large Bush sign in the window of the truck.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}6) One of the officers present was a female police officer who was apparently guiding or moving the line. When the line moved in a shady area, the police officer restructured the line in Caller' view to purposely make people wait outside polling place and in the sun. She (Caller) suspects that she was trying to make people uncomfortable enough so that they wouldn't vote.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}7) Spoke with EP lawyer and was advised to have the Caller fax a statement. The Caller agreed. The fax will be directed to Lawyer's attention and more.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}

Florida Pinellas Countryside Rec Center, Sable Springs Circle 9:30am Move-on Volunteer, touch screen voting machinse are defaulting to Bush/Cheney, 3 voters have said tried to change to Kerry, kept going back to Bush. Finally succeeded, but don't feel confident.

Florida Miami-Dade Covenant Palms 11/2/2004 4:30 p.m. When voter pushed button for Kerry, Bush came up on the screen.

Kansas Johnson County Crestview Elementary 11/2/2004, 8:30 am pushed Kerry/Edwards and it selected Bush/Cheney

Texas Harris Cthaise on Pech Road October 18th, First day of Early voting Voter voted on the first early day to vote in

Houston (october 18th) by electronic machine. Vother chose Kerry and when she checked her ballot she found that bush was selected. This happened one or two more times. By the third or fourth attempt kerry showed up as selected and voter submitted her vote.

Florida Broward Dania Lions Club 11/2/04 1540 Reviewed summary. Pushed red button candidates switched for president.

Florida Broward Daniels 11/2/04, 4:15pm At review screen, selection changed from Kerry to Bush "before my eyes" as voter pushed red button just before. Voter filed complaint with Kerry lawyer in polling place and told poll worker of problem, who said, "nothing could be done."

Florida Broward Deerfield Beach Housing Authority 11/2/2004 4:50 Upon reviewing her ballot before casting her vote, the voter noticed that "Bush/Cheney" appeared even though she had chosen "Kerry/Edwards".

Washington Snohomish Discovery Elementary School 11/2 at 7 AM Machine would enter incorrect candidates repeatedly. Kerry votes changed to Bush and others. Other voters reported similar problem.

New Jersey Bergen District A on American Legion Drive 11/02/04, 6:45am Touch screen machine. When caller pressed screen for Kerry nothing happened. It was only after several attempts and after pressing screen for candidates in other races that pressing the Kerry section worked. After voting, the caller discussed with his wife and she had the same problem.

New Mexico Bernalillo East Gate Church,12120 Copper Ave, NE 2-Nov Voter selection does not light up, other selections do. typically preside3ntial candidaTES from Kerry to 3rd party. Voter persistence seems to help

Illinois Cook Edward White school 10100 West 122nd 6am Broken Voting machine have to put ballots in voting box with scanning

New York Nassau Elmont Memorial H.S. 555 Ridgewood voted for Kerry and X was "partial"--the lever did not go all the way down. Others had some problem at polling place and insppector m="may have been called". She wants to know if her vote will can't.

Ohio Summit Erie Island Elementary School 10 am Nov. 2, 2004 Ballots are breaking off and clogging the machines. This was reported by workers outside polls with the Kerry campaign. He said that several voters complained.{cr}{newline}OVPC 14

Pennsylvania Philadelphia Finletter School 11/2/04 8:45 a.m. Machine was off when entered poll. The light for Kerry did not light up whatsoever. Pressed #1 for all Democratic candidates and no light for Kerry went on, the lights underneath Kerry which may have been the rest of the Democratic candidates were blinking. The light by Kerry was not blinking. Then hit vote. Most voters did not speak English. Most Haitian Americans who only speak Creole. Did report problem to polling official.

Pennsylvania Philadelphia Finletter School 11/2/04 8:45 a.m. the light for Kerry did not light up whatsoever. Pressed #1 for all Democratic candidates and no light for Kerry went on, the lights underneath Kerry which may have been the rest of the Democratic candidates were blinking. The light by Kerry was not blinking. Then hit vote. Most voters did not speak English. Most Haitian Americans who only speak Creole. Did report problem to polling official.

Florida Palm Beach First Christian Church 11/2/2005 17:30 Voter touched "Kerry" and Bush's name registered. I called poll worker and she told me how to erase Bush's name. We know of three today - maybe more!

Florida W. Palm Beach First Christian Church 11/2/2004 Some people vote Bush instead of Kerry - concept of callabration - okay understand - works on second time. Democratic poll watcher inside aware of the prolbem.

New York erie fruitbelt service center 326 high st. buffalo 14204 11-02-04 pm kerry/edwards name partially covered - can only see Edwards name. heard on raio WBLK similiar problem reported (93.7 fm) didn't complain at site. becuase didn't think it was a problem until he heard on radio.

New Mexico Bernalillo Georgia O'Keefe Elementary School, 11701 San Victorio Ave. NE 11/2/04, 3.00 pm Voter pressed name box for Kerry/Edwards, Libertarian light came on. Reproducible problem, persistence by voter allowed correct vote; probably ballot misalignment. Machine Serial No. 010154

Washington Snohomish Gold Bar Elementary School Nov. 2, ~8AM caller calling for sister. contact information is for sister who experienced problem. polling place uses automated voting machine. voter selected kerry on ballot and reviewed results; showed a vote for bush. repeated at least 3 times before reults reflected kerry vote. told poll worker who responded that it had been a common occurrence already that morning.

Florida Pinelas Gulfport Community Center Nov. 2 Voted on electronic macvhine that had a ribbon tape ?? could check. He voted for Kerry, but the tape said his vote was recorded for Bush. He complained & they fixed it. He knows it happened to others including his friend. He said he personally knows of several instances. If person didn't check the tape, the Kerry vote would count as Bush (also, how did the official fix it - override the tape or add a Kerry vote to the false Bush vote?)

Florida Palm Beach Hastings Club House Century Village 1. Voting machine #21338 not working from 7:00 AM. Reported by Lawyers for Kerry and by us - to Election Protection office.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}2. Persons who had not received absentee ballots were told they could not vote. (This happened five times - but problem was solved by Lawyers for Kerry.){cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}3. Poll line monitor was telling people they did not have to vote for amendments. We registered complaint with Kerry lawyers and they followed up with clerk who spoke to worker.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}4. Picture taken while speaking to a voter. Photographer was with AP. He took our names and names of voters. We gave him a Voter's Bill of Rights.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}5. Also questioned by writer from Wall Street Journal. Told him about absentee voting problem and how resolved.

New Mexico Bernalillo Hayes 11/02/04, 11:35 I assisted William Jones who lives in asssisted living; he pressed the "Kerry" button and the red light lit up "Libertarian," several names down the screen

Georgia Liberty Hinesville Middle School Cafeteria 11/2/2004, 10:30-11 am Voted Kerry -- pushed that button, jumped to Bush. Called for help; was able to remedy 2nd time also went to option above, not the one voter selected, but she was able to vote as she wanted in the end.

Florida Broward Hollywood Hills Alliance Church Nov. 2. 2:30 p.m Voted for Kerry but machine showed Bush.

Florida Palm Beach Lantana Recreation Center, Lantana, FL Touch screen ??? machine - would not accept Kerry vote at first. Had to press two or three times. Other offices worked normally

Florida Palm Beach County Located on Camino Real, in Boca Raton Tuesday, 11/2, Opening of polls Caller's parents arrived at polling place upon opening and encountered electronic voting machines that only allowed voters to vote in Spanish. Caller's dad ended up voting in Spanish.

New Mexico Bernalillo Longfellow Elelemntary School -- Edith Blvd. 11/2/04 8am Reported that voters tried to vote for Kerry and Peroutka's name was recorded.

Pennsylvania Philadelphia Mallery Recreational Center; Johnson & Morton Streets November 2, 7:45 am The vote button was placed too low and difficult to see. All the instructions are at eye level, but the vote button is at the lowest right hand corner of the machine. {cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}The candidate button for Kerry/Edwards-->the button to press is besides Edwards name not Kerry's name, so it's confusing.

Florida Broward Marriott Resort Hotel, 11775 Heron Bay Blvd Nov 2, morning or midday touchscreen calibration problem:{cr}{newline}Tried to vote for Kerry multiple times, kept getting candidate below Kerry. Asked poll worker for assistance, got no help. Finally was able to vote for Kerry by touching towards the Bush button.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}3rd or 4th machine from the right.

Florida Broward Marriott Resort Hotel, 11775 Heron Bay Blvd Nov 2, 10am Tried repeatedly to vote for kerry, got candidate underneath. Was able to vote for Kerry by touching more toward the Bush button.{cr}{newline}machine against back wall, somewhere around the 4th or 5th from the right{cr}{newline}

Florida Broward MLK Elementary School, Fort Lauderdale Nov 2, 8:35am Voter touched Kerry on screen, got Bush.{cr}{newline}(secondhand report from observer, no contact info for voter)

California Alamed Mosswood Recreation Center 11/2/04, 9:30am Electronic voting - a voter that she had been talking to on line had a problem with the machines that he didn't want to report, so she decided that she would report. While reviewing his votes, he discovered that the votes were differently registered (for example, voted for one candidate - Kerry - for Pres. and the machine showed that he had voted for a different person/ and votes on several different propositions were different as well). She didn't get his name. She decided to report this after thinking about it.

Georgia Clayton North Clayton Middle School, 5517 W. Fayetteville Rd, College Park, GA 30349 11/2/2004 0900 Upon filling out her ballot (on touch-screen system), voter selected "Kerry" as part of a straight-Democrat ticket, but it displayed "Bush" instead. She called poll worker over to look at it, who reset her ballot and had her re-do it entirely. This was successful. Upon hearing her make a commotion in line about it, another voter ahead of her reported the same problem.{cr}{newline}

Ohio Mahoning North Elementary 11/2/04 9:30AM Pressed Kerry button, another candidate came up (not Bush)! Second try, it worked.

Florida Hillsborough Oak Grove Church of God 6830 N. Habana Nov. 2, 2004 approx. 10:30-11:00 am "I stood one hour in line to go in and vote; I went in to vote; when I reached that machine, the very first thing I hit was Kerry democrat and out came Bush republican; I called the poll lady and said I don't vote this way; she said just do it again; but I know how to vote and not like that; It's very important to me my vote be counted; she said at the very end it would come out in the review which it did; I had to hit it twice for the ? to come on."{cr}{newline}The poll worker said "that is happening."{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}Information added at 5:15 pm{cr}{newline}Called back voter(ab-out 4:30) who specified that the machine was in the front row (of four, on the left) specifically, the second from the wall.

Florida Broward Oakland Park City Hall 11/1/2004 A person informed me of a friend who voted. The completed screen (precinct unknown) on the "review ballot" page wrongly stated that the voter had voted for Bush when the voter had selected Kerry. The voter reported this to an election official who responded, "Yes, that machine has been doing that all day."

Ohio Hamilton Old St. George Church 11/02/04 11:30 - Kerry was 3 (1st for Presidential Candidate){cr}{newline}- Kerry, Blank, Libertarian, , Bush{cr}{newline}- girl friend Bush and Kerry swapped

Florida Broward Oriole Gardens Clubhouse, 7400 NW 5th Ct. 11/2/04; 8:00 a.m. She had to select presidential choice 2x before correct choice was reflected. Got help from poll worker; successfully voted. Voted Bush, Kerry got highlighted. Can't remember which machine, maybe 2nd/3rd from right.

Ohio Mahoning Orthodox Church 11/2/2004 Caller's father voted on touch screen cmahine - for kerry edwards - when he went to check his vote - the vote had recorded Bush cheney ... he had to try 3 times to get the vote to kerry edwards. He told teh poll worker whose response was simply that the machine was tempermental.

South Carolina Charleston Pepperhill Elementary School 11/2/04, 8 am Voted today, when pressed 1 party democratic choice Kerry did not light up, but others did on ticket. Did not report to anyone at polling place, but heard on radio that people were having problem.

Ohio Mahoney Poland nd Boardman Township High School Poland-- Review pages from Kerry to Bush and people may not notice.Person heard it on radio talk show.Alson in PA. Mercer County, Shenago township heard thatv if I wanted to vote party ticket, machine would lock up.ran out of paper ballots, told people to go home and come back later.

Ohio Mahoning Price Memorial Zion Church, 920 Dryden Ave. 11/2/04 2:30-3 PM Selected Kerry and Bush's name came up. Selected Kerry a second time and only then did it remain Kerry. Her sister also had the same problem, and once she selected Kerry the second time it stayed.

New York queens ps 158 46-35 oceania st 10:15 The John Kerry chad was hard to punch. None of the other chads for the democratic party candidates were hard to punch.

New York Queens PS 158 Junior High Lever on machine for Kerry/Edwards does not work

Ohio Franklin Sawyer Towers 525 Sawyer Blvd. 2-Nov Voter reported that Kerry light on the machine would not light up. Poll worker said that he/she "would write it in later."

Florida Brower Somerset Condominiums Clubhouse, 2845 Somerset Dr. 11/2 11:30am Voter voted for Kerry; when she reviewed the ballot it showed that she voted for Bush. Poll worker said that has been happening to many others.

Ohio Franklin Southside Settlement House 310 Annis Ave 11/2/2004 13:34 Openly biased polling official obnoxious to Kerry people outside of the 100 feet limit. {cr}{newline}- 3 Hour lines{cr}{newline}- 1 of 3 machines broken{cr}{newline}- 2 2 precincts in same room not telling people where the line splits{cr}{newline}- Elderlly people leaving because of long lines{cr}{newline}- Polling official "As long as you voted for Bush, it'll be ok.

Florida Palm Beach Southwind Golf Course; Boca Raton Caller said when he went to vote, the ballot was repeatedly pre-selected for Kerry.

Florida Broward St George Community 11/2/2004 7:10 I voted for Kerry and after the screen ask me to write in my vote. I ask a poll worker to assist me. The pollworker ask the repairman and I was allow to vote.

Florida Broward St. James Baptist Missionary CHurch 500 N.W. 21st Ave. nov. 2 After voter voted for Kerry, and when they tried to move to the next screen, if heel of hand brushed against screen, which was apaprently happening, vote switched to Nader and got cast for Nader. Kerry Poll Watcher said some had been caught and corrected, but who knows about all. Poll worker not helpful to EP mobile attorney. Was iVotronic machine

Illinois Cook St. John's Luthern School, Schaumberg Township ,1800 S. Rodenburg road Voter went to vote (Punch Ballot) with wife. John Kerry is first punhc; GWB is second option. When looked at ticket, second was already pressed, tried to vote for JK. Wife had same experience (used a different machine)

Ohio Mahoning St. John's Orthodox Church 11/2/04 morning Mother woting on electronic machine-pressed Kerry then next page of ballot notices vote recorded for Bush. Has a pollworker reset machine and them voted again for Kerry.

Ohio Mahoning St. John's Orthodox Church Voter # 81 said it was a touchscreen machine which kept saying she was voting for Bush/Cheney when she had voted for Kerry/Edwards. She saw it on the last page when they can check the screen.

Florida Broward Veteran's Park One machine; told by Kerry monitor that when people voting for Kerry push "summarize". Another candidate's name shows up. Poll workers said, "didn't push hard enough." Said tech repairman has been dispatched.

South Carolina Richland W.A. Perry Middle School Micro voting machine: hit independent; blinking lights started flashing; he could not change the vote; he ended up voting for Nader, but wanted to vote for Kerry.{cr}{newline}

Florida Palm Beach Wells Recreation Center 2-Nov Person is reporting that someone he knows voted for Kerry using touch schrren machine but the summary of the vote showed that he voted for Bush.

Virginia Fairfax White Oaks Elementary Shippard Blvd Kerry/Democratic vote became Republican. Tried to make it work all day; Mom & Dad went reopened; heard them say broken all day. Machines left to right - 1st machine on left - machine # 1175.

California Sacramento 5 pm East Coast Time Voter at polling place: Benvenito's Restaurant in Boynton Beach, FL, reported that electronic ballot erred in selecting Bush when she clicked Kerry. Advise election official who addressed issue. Evidently fixed.

Florida Broward - machines switching are switching vote kerry to bush -- this ahappens prior to confirmation screen. {cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}- other voters complaining about the same thing

Florida Palm Beach 1. Wanted to vote for refunds - came up as against refunds{cr}{newline}2. Daughter was registered as newly registered, not 18 until 11/28/04.{cr}{newline}3. Husband voted for Kerry came up for next person not Bush - was ask to change it{cr}{newline}

Florida Broward 11/2/04, several times throughout the day 3 or more women told person they voted "down the street" (precinct 39V) from the post office at 4429 Hollywood Blvd. They voted for Kerry but the name Bush came up on the sceen at the end, when they voted, when vote was processed

Florida Miami-Dade 11/2/2004 6:15 p.m. Andrea called to pass on anecdotal information that this happened; she has no first-hand information...voter machines would select wrong candidate when voter selected J. Kerry - G. Bush would be selected.

Florida Palm Beach before 8 am, 8:40 AM, 9:15 AM before 8 AM - Voting machine in 6Z precinct not working.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}8:40 AM - Deputy poll official asked me to go inside to help because they were not able to get through to HQ to get machine fixed. The head poll clerk told me it was fixed. The poll clerk for the precinct itself said it HAD been fixed but broke again. Someone came to check and fixed it, but it broke again, and they couldn't get through to report it the 2nd time.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}At that point the Republican poll worker advised them that I was not authorized to be inside. I was asked to leave. A few minutes later, polling clerk came out and yelled at me and the others to stay out. He calmed down and spoke to the Kerry lawyer, about the problem getting provisional ballots. {cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}9:15 AM - machine still broken

Florida Lake Caller is concerned that voting machines are illegitimately discarding votes for Kerry. Believes electronic voting machines are rigged. Believes some initiatives are displayed along partisan favoritism. Entire development is pro-Kerry, landloards are all Bush supporters.

Florida Broward Caller learned from relatives in Coral Springs, FL (Broward) that electronic machines malfunctioned when voter tried to vote for Kerry - machine responds with "Bush". She does not believe the voters reported the problem. She reported it to Kerry campaign. They said they were aware of the problem, and that it had been going on all day.

Florida Palm Beach Couple voted for Kerry -- when confirmed vote, came out Bush. Called in eleciton poll supervisor, who got same result. Continued to use machine.

Florida Palm Beach County 11/2; 1:00 p.m. and 3:00 p.m. Don voted at 1:00 p.m. and wife voted 3:00 p.m. At both times, ballot did NOT show a candidates party affiliation.

Florida palm beach 11/2/2004 4:30 Ellen Obstler the atty at Kerry Headquarters called to report a problem at precinct; there are 2 precencts voting in one building and voters are not being directed to the proper voting machines.

Florida Orange early voting over the course of several days Had to call several times to get absenee ballot. Volunteered at polling places to assist voters. Worked for Kerry Campaign. heard from numerous people that they never got a sample ballot or their registration card. She attempted to assist voters at their request (elderly, disable, non-English speakingers, first-time voters) and was "pushed out" of polling places. Polling officials would ot allow her in, even at request of voters. Said she was not wearing campaign garb. Believed that polling officials were telling voters in line bad things aboutr her. Voter flipped off caller's daughter. Also, lots of machines breaking down, Lots of people getting sent to wrong places. Lots of republican challenges

Florida Broward Nov. 1 8:30 a.m. Machine changed candidate he was voting for (3rd machine from right, precinct 17M) Kerry highlighted, on review saw Brown(?) for president. Asked poll worker for help and poll worker had him start over. Voted successfully 2nd time.

Florida Broward Nov. 2, 2004 Reported via e-mail to eirhelp:{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}i voted in Lauderdale by the Sea, Florida, (Broward County) and the I-Voting machine would not let me vote for John Kerry. every time i touched the Kerry box, Bush's box would check off. after several failed attempts at trying to vote for kerry, i called over a poll worker and demonstrated what was happening. then a technician was called in and he had to re-calibrate the machine. the technician said this had happened several times already even though voting had only started 90 minutes prior. i told them not to use the machine any longer but they said they had to use it because the voting lines were too long.(LOGIC???) this is a community of elderly and there is no way they would have known for whom they had voted. i contacted democratic poll lawyers but never got anywhere. they gave me numbers to call but the numbers were always busy. i am frustrated and scared.{cr}{newline}

Florida Broward Nov. 2 Reported via e-mail. This report is extracted from a long message containing reports of incidents of different types; I have included the introductory paragraph each individual report.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}Spurred by the unwillingness of the broadcast media to report voting problems during the 2004 election race, we want to alert our friends, family and colleagues to the widespread voter suppression and disenfranchisement that occurred in Broward County, Florida. We staffed the emergency hotline for the Kerry Campaign Headquarters in Broward County from late October through the election. All of us were devastated by the margin of Bush's win in Florida, particularly since polls predicted the race would be extremely close.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}Many of the calls to our hotline were from voters who had pressed the "Kerry" button on their electronic voting screen, only to have "Bush" light up as the candidate they had chosen. In some cases, this would happen repeatedly until about the 5th or 6th time the voter pressed "Kerry" and eventually his name would light up. In other cases, the voters pushed "Kerry" but were later asked to confirm their "Bush" vote.{cr}{newline}

Florida Miami-Dade 2-Nov-04 Says brother told him he voted for Kerry on electronic machine and machine recorded vote for Bush.

Florida Broward 2-Nov Volunteer received 75 calls from Broward that when they voted for Kerry the light for Bush lit up on the election machines

Florida Palm Beach Voter clicked on Kerry, but the machine flashed "Bush". Polling place emplowyeeds voided ballot and she startd over.

Florida broward 11/2/2004 voter hit kerry button and check mark appeared next to bush. voter contacted poll worker to correct problem but the same thing happened whe she vote the rest of the ballot. she had help and was able to fix ballot before she left, but was concerned.

Florida Pinellas 11/2/4 - 10 am Voter selected Kerry and the voting machine showed that they had selected Bush - it took her many tried to correct.

Florida MIami-Dade 2-Nov-04 Voters selected Kerry and machine recorded Bush

Florida Palm Beach 11/1 (voted early) When he voted, he had to hit touch screen machine 4-5 times before Kerry's name would register. No similar problem w/any other candidate's name. Friend had a similar problem: she would hit Kerry's name & Costco's name would light up

Florida Palm Beach #NAME?
Missouri Unknown. Caller left message in 12/04. Caller called re: her daughter. Daughter is university student, but Daughter had very difficult time getting punch card machine to register vote for Kerry. Daughter noticed problem only because she examined ballot well after she left polling booth. Daughter got machine to punch vote for Kerry only after going back in voting booth and trying again.

New Mexico Bernalillo When water hit one button another light came on. Was able to corect. Hit for Kerry and other candidate lit up (Green)

Ohio Mahoning 11/2/2004 Attempted vote for Kerry, responed as Bush/Cheney. Upon verification, went back and changed to Kerry/Edwards. Verified as OK, submitted.

Ohio Mahoning Radio station reports & call ins that voters were hitting Kerry on touch screen, but checking tape showed that Bush's name was recorded; Boardman Township Mahoning Co. Ohio; Radio Station - 580 WKBM

Ohio Mahoning 11/2/2004 Voted Kerry and Bush came up.
Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA Light flickered red and green; wants to make sure her vote counted; only had 2 machines, normally have 6; others in precinct had paper ballots; was her vote counted? it did show Kerry'Edwards at the end.

Pennsylvania Philadelphia Nov. 2; PM One machine malfunctioning; could not vote for libraterian or constitutional party candidate, voted for kerry; machine taken out of service

Pennsylvania Mercer Nov. 2 Reported via e-mail:{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}I thought you should know about my experiences on Nov. 2. I was a field organizer for the Kerry/Edwards Campaign in Mercer County, Pennsylvania, and I witnessed severe problems with the voting system there. The following is a brief summary:{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}1. Thirteen precincts encountered complete or partial failures of electronic voting machines. Many of these machines were deemed "unrepairable" be technicians, and were out of service all day long. All of them were in Democratic-majority precincts. Many of them were in African-American precincts that have historically voted up to 90% in favor of democrats.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}2. Of these precincts, many of them lacked paper-ballot backups, and those that had paper ballots were unprepared to handle them, often issuing improper or illegal instructions.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}3. Countless numbers of people were told to go home once, then returned later in the day, hoping that the system would have been fixed, and were told to go home again. Some even went to vote three times and were told to go home each time. There is no way to accurately estimate how many people simply never got to vote, but it is at least in the hundreds, if not thousands.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}4. Out of 51,800 voters who signed in to vote on the electronic machines, only 47,700 actual votes for president were registered. In one highly-democratic precinct, Farrell 1-2, 289 people signed in to vote, but only 48 of them actually succeeded in registering votes for president (45 for Kerry, 3 for Bush). This points to a reasonable estimate that nearly 4,000 votes in the county were not recorded. Again, it appears that most of this disenfranchisement occurred in democratic-majority precincts.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}Since Pennsylvania was won by Kerry/Edwards, it has been difficult to get the proper degree of attention focused on this problem. However, the fact that these events did not directly affect the outcome of the election should not distract anyone from the fact that what happened in Mercer County was a complete disaster and a total disgrace.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}From their comments in the local papers, it appears that Mercer County's election officials fail to understand the gravity of 4000 lost votes and the disastrous affect that can have on peoples' faith in democracy. Such accidents cannot be swept under the rug.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}Anything short of a complete investigation into this matter should be unacceptable, and will be seen as unacceptable by the residents of Mercer County. Any pressure you can bring to bear to see that a full investigation goes forward will be greatly appreciated.{cr}{newline}{cr}{newline}Please call or write back. I have a stack of signed complaints that our office collected on Election Day. I am willing to help in any way to expose all the facts regarding this important matter.{cr}{newline}

Texas Florida calling about woman in FL who was on CNN who says she voted for Kerry and other democrats but when she went to vote her ballot, votes had all switched to republican. She called in poll worker who told her to clear machine, which she refused to do. Attorney at poll called in and he suggested she be allowed to vote at another machine. He believes serial # of that machine should be recorded and that machine and all others like it need to be sequestered. Critical that machines be guarded.

Texas Denton 11/2/2004 8:28 Electronic voting, 1. Very complicated, 2. Pressed help button, no one responded. 3. Voted on 1st qustion, straight voting either democratic or republican (no other choice). Didn't want straight democratic. First selection on next screen, for President, chose Kerry and then got a screen that said "not compatible with prior screen"... clicked next screen.

Texas Harris Not sure she voted for Kerry, voted straight party ticket

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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. so, the election was rigged/stolen/fraudulent, etc.
Edited on Thu Aug-11-05 11:44 PM by CountAllVotes
Nothing new to those of us here that are aware of these FACTS. Too bad the rest of the USA doesn't wake-up and realize the TRUTH!

I hereby nominate this for one of the Greatest pages! :D

The truth is supposed to set you free. Is this still the case?

Thank you for all of your hard work and research! I for one certainly appreciate it very much and I hope others out there do too!

:dem: :kick: :kick: :kick:

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 04:22 PM by TruthIsAll

That's OK.
You didn't disappoint us.
We knew from the start that you would not do the job.

Arnebeck will take care of that.

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DELUSIONAL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kick
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CottonBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. Kick & nominated.
Thanks for all of your incredible work and research.
:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:
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MeDeMax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. thnx for re-iterating the documentation
This aint over yet...
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CountAllVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. damn right!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bookmarked nominated and...
thank you TruthIsAll for compiling this info.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks for this. I collaborated with folk who also post here on Snohomish
Edited on Thu Aug-11-05 11:55 PM by understandinglife
.... County WA. No one seemed to give a shit. If anyone does a search at DU they'll find:

And, I posted results at VR and dKos.

We all care to have the truth of yet another American catastrophe emerge. Your persistence, TIA, is what it will take to have that be the outcome.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. understandinglife, I think that saying "no one seemed to give a shit"
is too easy a dismissal of the profound impact of Bush Cartel, news monopoly and Democratic Party lying, and it may be seriously inaccurate as to how most people really feel.

I've been following issue statistics, and what they tell us is not only astonishing, in itself, but also astonishing as to the impact of those combined forces--Bush Cartel, news monopolies and corrupt Dem leaders--on our ability to remember things, and on our perception of, and understanding of, our fellow Americans. For instance,

58% of the American people opposed the Iraq war BEFORE the invasion. Feb. '03. Across the board in all polls. Before all the lies were exposed; before all the horror and costs of it were known. 58%!

About half of that 58% opposed the war outright. The other half would only approve a UN peacekeeping mission (world consensus), not unilateral, pre-emptive war by Bush.

63% of the American people oppose torture UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. May '04. What this stat means is that the great majority of Americans are sticking to their sense of justice, ethics and lawfulness, despite relentless fear-mongering.

Name the issue. The Iraq war. Torture. Social Security. The deficit. Women's rights. The great majority of Americans oppose every major Bush policy, foreign and domestic, way up in the 60% to 70% range.


The Iraq war proceeds, over 100,000 people are slaughtered, thousands of US soldiers are killed or maimed or sickened in their hearts, and we get "Vietnam all over again"--with half the Democrats in Congress voting in favor of it,


Thousands of mostly innocent people are detained and tortured, and the designer of this torture policy, Alberto Gonzales, is shoved down our throats as the chief law enforcement officer of the U.S. of A, and is even touted by some Democrats for the Supreme Court.


The architect of death squads and illegals wars, John Bolton, is appointed as chief United Nations wrecker.

So, why is it that "no one seems to give a shit" about Stolen Election II?

Well, if you have ever had the dreadful feeling, over the last several years, that your fellow Americans were succumbing to fear, and turning toward fascism, and were rejecting their great progressive heritage, and/or were more and more becoming callous, mean, unthinking yahoos, you will understand the power of the news monopolies to provide the rightwing minority with a BIG TRUMPET to blast that perception into your brain--yes, even into your intelligent, well-informed, well-educated and progressive brain, and mine.

It's NOT TRUE. The rightwing minority is STILL a minority. The majority is STILL progressive in its views--and stubbornly so. But we are being constantly brainwashed that the opposite is true.

These are news monopoly polls. So we can safely assume that the numbers opposing Bush on every issue are EVEN HIGHER. And its the greatest puzzle in the world how their own polls are telling them that Bush not only has NO MANDATE, but also has very little support--just the same 30% to 40% of greedbags and wingers that have always been with us--and this doesn't strike them as odd, and they never comment on it.

It should therefore be no surprise to anyone that many Americans do not know WHY they feel so disempowered, and isolated--as if they had suddenly awakened in the wrong country, a country they don't recognize. Their perception of why they feel so disempowered has ALSO been "managed."

Go back to election night. Kerry was winning all day long. Then, suddenly, late in the day, the numbers were switched round. WE now know what happened with the exit polls--that they were FALSIFIED to fit Diebold's and ES&S's numbers (Bush wins)--but most people are still stuck with that perception in their brains, that SOMEHOW Bush pulled it off, and it must be that THEY had misunderstood what the country was thinking. They now go around thinking, "Boy, people are stupid. They bought Bush's B.S.," and they would be mind-boggled to know that all of the TV networks--and, indeed, all of the news monopolies--acting in concert, FALSIFIED major evidence (the exit polls) that Bush did not win. That can't happen, can it?

Further, the numbers that they used to falsify the exit polls were coming from two companies, both owned by Bushites, who tabulated the official results with SECRET, PROPRIETARY PROGRAMMING CODE--code so secret that not even Secretaries of State are permitted to review it.

So we have a completely non-transparent, unverifiable "official result" brought to us by Bushites with secret formulae. FALSIFIED evidence to confirm that result. And Democratic Party leaders saying NOTHING.

And that's the third leg of this heinous scam that has been played upon the American people: Democrats said virtually nothing when this outrageously fraudulent election SYSTEM was put into place, and then said nothing when it inevitably turned up Bush as the winner DESPITE AMERICANS' OVERWHELMING disagreement with him on EVERY ISSUE, and despite the voters quite obvious desire to throw this murderous, thieving Cartel out of office (--among others things, the Dems blew the Bushites away in new voter registration in 2004, nearly 60/40! People were FLOCKING to the Dem party).

Why their silence? Why, why, why? I think the answer is becoming pretty clear. A good part of it has to do with the fact that election systems have now become a billion dollar BUSINESS--and Dem election officials and representatives have been lavishly lobbied, seduced and corrupted by all that money. Our right to vote has been sold out--for venal corruption.

Look what Amaryllis stumbled upon--a week of fun and sun for election officials from around the country, at the Beverly Hilton in Hollywood, sponsored by Diebold, ES&S and Sequoia, LAST WEEK!

And the other part of it is war profiteering--all those Dems who voted to let GEORGE BUSH INVADE IRAQ. The great majority of the American people weren't fooled by the WMD lies. Nearly 60% of them opposed the war in Feb. '03! And neither were our war profiteering, military-industrial complex Democrats fooled. They wanted the war. And they stand to benefit from Bush screwing it up, and taking the rap for all the deaths and the costs. Look who we're getting shoved down our throats as potential presidential candidates in '08. Not an antiwar voice among them!

We have a fascist coup. We have a handful of billionaires monopolizing the news, and creating the ILLUSION of Bush worship. And we have half the Democrats applauding, and many of them either corrupt on electronic voting, or on the war, or on global corporate piracy--and bullying all the rest into silence.

You say "no one seemed to give a shit." I don't think it's true. I think people are struggling and suffering under an Iron Curtain of manipulated perceptions, propaganda and brainwashing. I think many Americans are staggered by our powerlessness and disenfranchisement, and are only just beginning to glimpse the truth about it.

Also, I think that, BECAUSE of the lack of (or the squelching of) GOOD national leaders, and the horrid, negative, divisive, destructive messages of the fascist manipulators, people actually turn TOWARD the news monopolies, as if their false "news" were an umbilical cord to "the nation." And they get double-whammied. What is our "nation"? Where does our national identity reside--if MOST people reject the Bush Cartel and its greedbags and wingnuts? It's NOWHERE. And so, EVEN WHEN THEY KNOW THEY'RE BEING LIED TO, people keep turning to "the news" to plug into what they think is the "national reality," because they have NOTHING ELSE.

Because of this, it's going to be very difficult to get them to the point where they can acknowledge the massive deception of the 2004 election. They NEED TO BELIEVE that there is something true there, despite all the lies.

Patience. Faith. People saw through the war, even before all the lies were exposed. They stuck to their guns on torture policy, despite unprecedented fear-mongering. They maintain strongly progressive and democratic views on all issues, despite non-stop propaganda that these "liberal" views are now despised and that most other Americans despise them. (It's just not true!)

And when you are tempted to think that "no one gives a shit," translate that in your mind into, "it's too scary for them," or "they're struggling with mind-boggling propaganda coming at them from every direction." DO NOT PRESUME that people don't care.

It's very enticing to think that progressives might take the '06 elections, or even take back the White House in '08. That's where a lot of Democratic activists are at, right now. I've even indulged in a few fantasies myself, despite all that I know. It's very sad, and tragic. It's SO OBVIOUS that the country is actually very progressive, that we think that, somehow, it will all work, and balance will be restored.

That is not going to happen--until we get rid of Diebold and ES&S, and restore election transparency. They may throw a few sops at us--like, NOT looting Social Security--and we may even see a war Democrat in the White House. But we won't see real-balancing, or any of the fundamental changes that are needed, until we have re-gained our right to vote. And clearly that is not going to be easy to do, with many Americans still UNABLE to face the fact that we have lost that right.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Very thoughtful and detailed response. I'm honored to have received it.
Thank you.

I think we are well on our way to our fellow citizens demanding a piece of paper when they vote and all kinds of verification between that vote and the tally sheet.

Without valid elections, the lawlessness of the empire builders will remain unchecked, peacefully.

As I've written many times 'Not one line of software between a voter and a valid election' and, nothing is going to convince me otherwise - I know too much about software and networks.


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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. Thank you (nominated and bookmarked). In the old days I would have...
supposed that if enough people kept bird-dogging this ever-more-conclusive evidence, somebody in major mass media would at last start paying attention, but no more: Bush is the oligarchy's man, and -- just like in any other banana republic -- the corporations will do whatever it takes to keep Bush in power. At least we have the Internet. (A few years ago I might also have expected PBS to pick up this story, but it too has been terrorized into submission by the Bush Administration.)
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
9. Great's all about the process. This was corrupt.
And the naysayers and quibblers can take a hike...The data is independent in the sense that there were multiple machines across the country in different jurisdictions. The data is related in the sense that it reflects fraud, not just at the local level, but nationally.

I phone banked for MoveOn.Org prior to the election. Guess where my district was. You got it, Volusia County Florida. I knew that there was a history but the size of reports for that county is just stunning. Unlike other areas I worked where people were friendly, Volusia residents where reluctant to talk and upset that someone was calling them about voting. I guess my data was independent too since it was across state lines in multiple jurisdictions.

We should all remember the name Volucia County Florida as the home of a disproportionate number of election fraud victims.

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GentryLange Donating Member (98 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Nice post...
Kick kick kick

So has everyone already seen the Snohomish County's Statistical analysis of touch screen to absentee shift to Bush? Should have a link here somewhere...
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Doo_Revolution Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 06:01 AM
Response to Original message
11. That's the largest amount of evidence on this issue I've ever seen....
And the GOP has one last option to spin it in their favor:

"Well, even though there was no reluctant bush responder......The reason this fraud happened, is because democrats committed mass voter fraud. Without so many fraudulent registrations the 2004 election would not be fraudulent."

To which I have to say, "TOTAL BULLSHIT" and call them out of the closet for stealing the last two elections.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
12. Each of the examples above is the tip of an iceberg
for example, in Snohomish county, washington there are 3-4 reports in the EIRS data above but a closer inspection (as in the report/investigation on Snohomish county cited above) reveals many more.

And certainly, even that is still a fraction of the total of actual voter experiences, since many do not report it and there is not extensive opportunity for documentation during the busy-ness of an election.
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
13. All I can say is

Available at The Protest Store

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
14. And this was only ONE of the many mechanisms by which the election
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 10:07 AM by Nothing Without Hope
was stolen. There were many more methods used. One other that is known to have been a factor is voter purging - selective removal of Democratic voters names' from the polls. The story of Katherine Harris doing this in Florida in 2000 is famous - but it happened wholesale in 2004 as well. It was one of the tactics used in Ohio. A thorough study is needed to determine the true range of the numbers of wrongly purged voters: More discussion in this thread for the significance of voter purging in Ohio:

There are so many other mechanisms that were used. For example, here are some of the voter disenfranchisement schemes that worked all too well in Ohio:

And remember: the DNC official report on the Ohio Election claims that there was no evidence of widespread fraud!

Totally bogus and very damaging - and you have to ask why they came out with this sorry piece of whitewash. Whose side are they on?
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JRob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
15. Who's surprised? Certainly not I... Kick
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mgr Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
16. Right, now could you tally the ones that are DRE, and those that are not.
That is one poor piece of documentation and vetting.

Just scanning the list: Inkavote in Los Angeles, New Yorks' antiquated system are not touch screens. However, I do see a lot of Broward and Palm Beach, which if treated as a singularity, may reduce your list. What is the association of the problem to reports of machine problems, and how might this relate to the California SoS refusal of Diebold DRE because of the 10% rate of paper jams? What is the association to reports of long lines; and that the primary problem is poor technical assistance from the vendor that resulted in voter suppression rather than vote switching? Tell me how this argument is naysaying?

Your list does not eliminate the argument that the occurrences are not independent, it supports it. What is the screen against the reports being repetitious, or duplicative?--like the Texas report for Florida?

All you need to do is run a simple regression.


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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Treat Broward and Palm Beach as a SINGULARITY? Surely, you jest.
FL and OH were singular major targets for the FRAUD - because Bushco needed BOTH to win. As Landshark has posted: These are just the tip of the iceberg. Different precincts. Same result.

Hello? They were hacked.
You know it.
But you're mgr, so you naysay.

No surprise.

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mgr Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Good veronica but you are gored none the less
The appeal to authority does not cut it, it does not support your construction of the facts only. Just because an attorney at law states 'tip of the iceburg' does not degrade my comments at all, in fact it strengthens them. Everyone, experts and lay, has been saying this about Ohio and Florida since November when closer scrutiny to these issues first began, so why should what an attorney said ten months after the fact carry weight?

You do not need to modify the source code if you are trying to keep people's votes from being recorded by making it impossible to record them through deliberate incompetence. The association between machine problems, vote flips (a class of machine problems), and long lines is quite strong. How many turned away and did not vote compared to how many report their votes flipped? I would suggest that the ratio is close to one hundred to one.

Your data above is sloppy and needed to be vetted before you posted. My take is that your overall methodology is lazy, and you are personally unable to accommodate the possibility that voter suppression targeted african americans and jews--the two populations the clearly live in close proximity to one another, and vote strongly for the democratic party (both in overall percent and turnout); and as minorities may not expect to have their voices heard.

If you wish to say that I am saying nay to your characterization of how this election was stolen, that would be appropriate; but don't mischaracterize it as that I don't think it was stolen. It was, but it was not whitey that took the hit.

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mgr Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Re 2: what makes analysis independent (#1)
To argue that DRE machines had a role in the stolen election via switching votes, what you must show is both:

1. Separate from other voting irregularites, vote switching occurred with all DRE counties. Thus Broward, Palm Beach, Dade, Mahoning are singularities (here you can use the binomal distribution to your little heart's content, and I won't dispute your odds, I might your interpretation); and,

2. That within counties, where there are a multitude of reported irregularities, that successful vote switching exceeded in magnitude the other irregularities. As a case in point, the reports of vote switching for Mahoning are less than those reporting machine malfunctions, and long lines, that logically one would compelled to provide a different explanation than vote switching being the targeted outcome. The same applies to Broward and Palm Beach. Snohomish may be different, but Kerry won Washington (go figure).

I don't think a case can be made--I reviewed this data long before you did. To make a case would require a closer and more careful analysis than you have brought to bear so far. You might do well to collaborate with Time For A Change. But then it is noteworthy that on your essential DU threads, its all about TIA; and you omit his equally significant threads.

I also find it strange that you argue both sides of the fraud issue--widespread electronic fraud, but here that it targeted Ohio and Florida. What happened to the beast in the east? I've always staked out the position that it happened in the battleground states, but that the primary variable was voter suppression. So are you coming to consensus with me, the naysayer?

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
18. Awesome work, TIA! Thanks so much for putting all of these incidents
together. I was particularly struck by incidents like this one...

"Georgia Liberty Hinesville Middle School Cafeteria 11/2/2004, 10:30-11 am Voted Kerry -- pushed that button, jumped to Bush. Called for help; was able to remedy 2nd time also went to option above, not the one voter selected, but she was able to vote as she wanted in the end."

"...she was able to vote as she wanted IN THE END."

In the end!

How many people DIDN'T NOTICE? How many people--in the long lines that were inflicted only on Democrats--DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO DOUBLE-CHECK? And how do we know that her vote was in fact recorded accurately "in the end"?

Tip of the iceberg.

(...meanwhile, on board the Titanic: "full speed ahead!")
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
19. Some way to hand deliver this to Donna Brazile?
How about a skit? A dramatization, you know, of all those incidents. Maybe thirty incidents, and just to show how ODD it is, include ONE that goes the other way.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. A caller to Larry King last night said THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN.
Lapdop Larry was about to pooh-pooh it when Maher jumped in and said, "Why wouldn't you think the election was stolen? All the reported voting misfires - they ALL went Bush's way. That's just impossible.

We have to send this to everyone we know, all the "media". Call in to C-SPAN.

We have to keep screaming. WE have to do it.

And thanks TIA - for fighting for our country.
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. Fabulous as always, TIA.
It was through you that I orignally found DU, and took the trouble to register. Your posts showed up on Google, and I was amazed.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Bill Mahar said the Dems need to assume the Gop will cheat and need
to go after extra extra votes to make up the difference.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Election fraud strikes at the heart of democracy. It cannot be tollerated.
The penalties for election fraud should be parallel to those for Treason. If you really think about it. It is a coup against the Constitution and Government. Being a bloodless coup makes it less of a crime but no less treason. The end result is the same. We the people are denied the ability to choose our leaders. It's the begining of the end of American Democracy.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
26. You Forgot MARYLAND, too! Long Lines in Inner-City...
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 04:17 PM by AuntiBush
No line w/tons of workable touch-voting machines with no one in line in surrounding red-counties. Gov Ehrlich refused paper-trails prior to the election. Check the Sun Papers online.

Yes, from Professors to high-profile Doctors living in the city all said "that day to me" they had but 3 machines (in 3 separate areas); 2 of 3 did not work, lines were so long they had no choice but to get out of line to get to their jobs. Many said they "seen" vote jumping, from Kerry to Bush before their eyes; again, very creditable people. It was like that all over Baltimore, but in the counties, not a problem - no lines, tons of machines w/no one on them.

I can't figure out why certain people on the DU don't understand "ALL THE EVIDENCE." Maybe you need to read the book over at about what happened in Ohio.

If we DON'T stop 3 Republican owned voting machine companies from holding all the power over our votes, we'll never, ever get back in. Ever! Do you think 2006/2008 will be any different. All the CRIMES they've committed, lies of War, etc. What? You think they would do this either?


Edited: 'Cause I can't type without typos.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. I threw away my vote for Kerry!
Well at least that's how I felt after tossing the computer card in a brown paper bag taped to the side of the voting machine as instructed. There was a guy with a Gizmo around his neck to erase the card and a lap top. He handed me a erased card. I saw him erase it. I voted without incident. Then tossed the card in the bag. Then a poll worker takes the card back to the guy with the eraser Gizmo. Does the card unlock the voting machine or is the vote recorded on it?

Don't worry about it. Neither can I. It must be a Maryland thing hon. I fuess we just like ti figure thinf sout. :+ Also my key aim is off center a little to the left. I wonder why? LMAO
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-14-05 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. You got it, hon!
:hi: to my fellow "hon" Duer! LOLOL Great last liner!

Same here though. A guy w/a tag 'round his neck had a card in his hand. He stuck it in the side of the machine, and took it from my hand with a swift swipe. I asked him for a print-out, a voucher like receipt.

Without a word, he grabbed my elbow and with a strange unhuman smile, showed me to the door. I'm not a violate-type personality so... Me thinks this is going on all over our country.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
27. P.S. Great Work, TruthisAll!
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freedomfries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
for putting this list together
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. All I did was download the relevant EIRS data into Excel.
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 04:28 PM by TruthIsAll
I just searched for machine incidents containing the word KERRY.
Then copied and pasted to DU.

I did no editing whatsoever.

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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
32. kick
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
33. shit
fuck and piss. :banghead:
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jen4clark Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. Couple things...
First, TIA, Thanks for this awesome post!! Do you know of The Whispering Campaign? Maybe you could contact Winter Patriot and see if he can put this up? He's guest blogging at Brad Blog while Brad's on holiday. Perhaps you could link this post there and give him permission to link it at The Whispering Campaign site? It's a great way to get information distributed to people who don't read blogs or use the internet.

Also, don't know if this has been posted, but for some reason as I read this article I had this very hopeful feeling that the truth is slowly but surely spreading...

No Paper Trail Left Behind:
The Theft of the 2004 Presidential Election

In order to believe that George Bush won the November 2, 2004 presidential election, you must also believe all of the following extremely improbable or outright impossible things.

1) A big turnout and a highly energized and motivated electorate favored the GOP instead of the Democrats for the first time in history.

2) Even though first-time voters, lapsed voters (those who didnt vote in 2000), and undecideds went for John Kerry by big margins, and Bush lost people who voted for him in the cliffhanger 2000 election, Bush still received a 3.5 million vote surplus nationally.

3) The fact that Bush far exceeded the 85% of registered Florida Republicans votes that he got in 2000, receiving in 2004 more than 100% of the registered Republican votes in 47 out of 67 Florida counties, 200% of registered Republicans in 15 counties, and over 300% of registered Republicans in 4 counties, merely shows Floridians enthusiasm for Bush. He managed to do this despite the fact that his share of the crossover votes by registered Democrats in Florida did not increase over 2000 and he lost ground among registered Independents, dropping 15 points.

4) Floridas reporting of more presidential votes (7.59 million) than actual number of people who voted (7.35 million), a surplus of 237,522 votes, does not indicate fraud.

- much more...
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Great points and two great sites!
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. I see he used some points from my original "To believe Bush won..."
That's OK. Great article.
He has some very interesting stats which are extreme smoking guns.

Let the word go forth.
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
38. Thanks TIA! n/t
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
39. There is a relationship between long lines and touchscreen or booth
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 10:50 PM by Land Shark
voting: these supposedly high tech machines are bottlenecks the public must wait in line for, and subject to playing distribution games with where the machines go.

Paper ballots are different. While the supply can be subject to maldistribution, there's really no excuse for not having a healthy surplus or an ability to get extra ballots to a needed location quickly if a shortage occurs.

In a pinch, you can vote a paper ballot on your lap or knee or the nearest wall, the lines if any should move fast just to sign the poll book or (in those jurisdictions that require it) check ID and issue a ballot.

Electronic voting machines ==== expensive bottlenecks. It's a proposition impossible to deny.

Tip: typically the number of machines a jurisdiction is proposing to purchase GUARANTEES an utter fiasco in a high turnout election, because each machine will record 100-150 votes in an election (if a touch screen DRE for example) but even these rates create intermittent lines of 30-45 minutes during rush periods based on distribution patterns occurring in Snohomish county EVEN WITH AN INCREDIBLE 68% OF OUR COUNTY VOTING ABSENTEE/EARLY AS WAS TRUE STATEWIDE. 30-45 minute waits during the dinner hours is what $5 million got us, even after 68% of the people voted with their feet for an absentee paper ballot. (later scanned, then hand counted because of the 2004 recounts)

This expensive bottleneck argument does not *necessarily* implicate scanners, because they are functioning as paper ballots up to the point of scanning, which is after the voter gives his voted ballot to the clerk. The ups and downs of scanning are a different subject, and very hazardous, yet scanners constitute a redeemable system if their are simultaneous hand counts of random samples to check the scanner (and the other hand counters) while ANYTHING THAT COMES BETWEEN THE VOTER AND THEIR BALLOT OR MAKES THE VOTES ON A BALLOT ANYTHING LESS THAN REASONABLY INDELIBLE is a system that is not redeemable. (touch screen DREs)
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north houston dem Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
40. Wow...Thanks TIA
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
42. TruthIsAll, what hope do you have for the Carter-Baker Commission?
They are working on their recommendations at the Carter Center this month and their recommendations will be released September 19th.

I fear for any commission on election reform that has Jim Baker as its Co-Chair. If this is not sending a message on what Bushco thinks of election reform, I don't know what is.

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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Jim Baker is NOT the problem; it's Donna Brazille and the DLC.
Edited on Sat Aug-13-05 08:47 AM by TruthIsAll
Fear the DLC.
Fear the Media.

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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-13-05 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Is there realistically anything we can do now to prove Ohio vote fraud?
If so, let's do it. If not, let's concentrate on 2006. Will the Baker-Carter Commission move the process of election reform forward or set it back?
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
46. sorry, I was on naysayer vacation
Camping, fishing, debunking urban legends, the usual. Apropos of nothing, I caught a fundie AM radio station in the boonies that argued for the literal account of Genesis using statistics. And I quote: "The probability that birds and bees and beasts of the field just evolved out of nowhere? Zero minus infinity! (sic)"

Anyway, here we are again:

Well, we CAN assume independence. The vast majority of these events occurred in different states and/or unique polling locations within a state.

In truth, we can safely assume the opposite:

However, in many surveys, a random sample of households is selected instead of a random sample of persons. Still, each person in a selected household is asked whether or not they consulted a medical doctor in the past year. The sample total number of persons who saw a doctor no longer follows a binomial distribution. When one person in a household goes to a doctor, typically the other members of the household are likely to go to see a doctor as well. Moreover, either all members of a family have health insurance or none of them have health insurance hence all would go for checkups or none would go. This clumping or clustering effect violates the independence of trials where each trial is a person having seen or not seen a doctor in the past year.

As pertains to the EIRS database, there's an easy way to tell if the events are statistically independent. If any trial refers to unknown quantities of people on the same machine, then we're comparing apples to bushels of apples (aka the "clustering effect", not a right-wing conspiracy):

Andrea called to pass on anecdotal information that this happened; she has no first-hand information...voter machines would select wrong candidate when voter selected

Both caller and her husband said when they pulled up their electronic ballots, Bush was already checked.

Machine would enter incorrect candidates repeatedly. Kerry votes changed to Bush and others. Other voters reported similar problem.

This not only violates the assumption of statistical independence, but it illustrates the fallacy in cherrypicking 88 (95? 94?) events and treating them like fixed Bernoulli trials. Saying "we CAN assume independence" is akin to saying "we CAN assume the earth is flat."

Once again, Stats 101, as explained by three DU people (presumably three different people, but sockpuppets may violate the assumption of statistical independence):

1) you need to be careful on this, as a good statistician will immmediately look at the assumption of independence as tenuous.

2) Grouping every machine error in Ohio together and calling them random, does not make them random.

3) there is a flaw. A binomial distribution is obtained as the sum of independent bernoulli trials with an equal probability of "success". In this case, your value of .5 is the probability of success. The flaw (actually two flaws) are:

1. If any discrepancies happened on the same machine, one cannot assume independence.
2. Similarly, as the probability of discrepancies probably varied between machines, one cannot assume equal probabilities of success.

So, the actual model is more complex than a simple binomial.

So where does that leave us? Simply as a proportion (86 of 88, or 87 of 94, or skids' count, depending on whom you believe), we have something fishy. Turning the real ratio into an urban legend (binomdists that violate 4 out of 4 requirements for binomdists) can only hurt the reality-based observation, which is that something on the order of 92-98% of EIRS vote-switching events favored Bush (and 100% of vote-switching events attributed to Sequoia, per my dong work for

If you were interested in getting a true count, you'd first remove the duplicates (note the 8th and 9th reports on your list are dupes, so GIGO), then examine the work of people before you, then look at the data, instead of fitting the data to an unfalsifiable conclusion. If you could do that without turning the big number into a bigger wrong number, and without calling everyone who took stats 301 a "freeper", then I wouldn't need to explain elementary probability definitions.

"Look, I am NOT a pollster. I am NOT a statistician."
- "TruthIsAll" (
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Now, foo, let's both read what skids had to say...
Edited on Mon Aug-15-05 09:07 PM by TruthIsAll

Even if we take all instances where the party of the stolen vote is unknown and attribute them to Republican votes being assigned to Democrats, that still doesn't make the figures any less miraculous. Are there any other possible explanations for this disparity?

1) Evangelicals have been told that 1-866 numbers and the "Internets" are tools of the devil, like unto exit pollers.
2) The EIRS operators were biased in their data collection. (Examination of another type of report, like complaints of people too close to polls, might tell us.)
3) The EIRS call-in number was more widely reported to Democrats. (This could be quantified.)
4) Election day media coverage (CNN) of Kerry votes flipping to Bush made Kerry voters more wary.
6) The actual odds of this aren't as great as they might appear, since computer errors are often systematic.
(Seeing whether ballot order and machine type varied widely among locations with similar reports would indicate.)
7) Errors harming Kerry were overreported because these machines were in precincts where lots of people voted for Kerry.
(Well, Sherlock, WHY were the problem machines in highly Democratic precincts? Isn't that a miracle in and of itself?)

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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-15-05 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. and the price of tea in China?
Skids laid out his methodology:

Number of EIRS reports for Florida, Broward County:
Kerry votes changed:

To Bush: 11
To Unspecified: 5 (041979,042530,046762,055080,001096)
To Brown: 2 (046394,056831)
To Nader: 1 (047606)
To writein: 1 (055103)

Bush votes changed:
To Kerry: 1 (048034)

So we have far more potential outcomes than a binomial distribution can express (remember, "mutually exclusive" and "dichotomous"). You can't get around the fact by dropping data points that don't fit your conclusion:

Trimming, according to Babbage, would essentially be the act of forcing observations to fit a desired mean by removing portions of those data points that deviate in excess and adding these portions to those data points that deviate in the other extreme. Babbage defined cooking as the process of making many measurements and then only reporting those choice measurements that are deemed satisfactory by the appropriate standards.

Intentionally dropping data points that disconfirm the hypothesis counts as falsification, a type of research misconduct. Some methods for ensuring that outliers are irrelevant and not disconfirming instances include repetition of the experiment, checking the calibration of instruments or of measurements. Unexpected data points may also indicate conclusions very different from what the researcher expects.


That's why I stick with Zogby and ARG, etc. I've stopped blindly incoporating the latest poll that Votemaster puts up - unless t makes sense. Call me a cherry-picker. I throw away the bad ones. That's why my numbers seem so far out there for Kerry.

No, I leave them out because they are BIASED for Bush.

Why include them if they skew the averages against Kerry?

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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
49. Kick.nt
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Hey kester! How about a recommend
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foo_bar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-05 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. where did the other 33 votes go?
Compare to...

Let's look at the data, using the TIA method:

7/25/05 (MelissaB): 2 votes
8/05/05 (MelissaB): 8 votes
8/07/05 (MelissaB): 4 votes
8/10/05 (autorank): 40 votes
8/11/05 (MelissaB): 5 votes
8/15/05 (MelissaB): 5 votes
8/16/05 (autorank): 7 votes (so far)

There's plenty more data points, but it just makes the probability SMALLER. If we take the standard deviation of the data points that support my hypothesis, we get a stdev of 2.137 and an arithmetic mean of 5.1666. Assuming a standard distribution, the probability of a 2k4ERD Daily Thread getting 40 posts is:


2665180000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 to 1 (or a 3.75209E*10^-59 percent probability).

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ihelpu2see Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-05 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
52. Truth did you see this paper ?

It points out the same thing you did a couple of months ago, about to many people voted for Bush in 2004 if you look at the 2000 numbers...
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Yes, I even cited the article in a post..
Edited on Wed Aug-17-05 07:25 PM by TruthIsAll
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ihelpu2see Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-05 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Great Im glad you had seen it. keep up the great work. eom
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
55. kick - In tribute to his tremendous contributions - WHY??? :( n/t
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
56. Kicking for truth, justice, and TIA's invaluable work.
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