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MUST READ- French article on US TORTURE with interviews of ex-CIA agents

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:42 PM
Original message
MUST READ- French article on US TORTURE with interviews of ex-CIA agents
An amazing – but is it surprising? – article on the routine running of torture around the world as a “legal” activity by the CIA. This long article is from the French publication La Monde Diplomatique and cites interviews of former CIA officers among other sources. Except from Seymour Hersh, you don’t’ see much on this subject in the US media. You will get only a taste of the article from the four paragraphs I excerpt below - I recommend reading the entire article.

I found this article and many other fascinating foreign articles on US matters from around the world at a remarkable site which I recommend enthusiastically, Watching America: http://www.watchingamerica.com

http://mondediplo.com/2005/04/04usatorture
La Monde Diplomatique, April 5

United States: trade in torture


This is a story of private jets flying out of Germany, of kidnappings on European streets, and of torture. It has a cast of lawyers, spies, suspected terrorists, innocent bystanders and an ex-CIA boss who believes that ‘human rights is a very flexible concept’.
By Stephen Grey

(snip)

According to a former covert officer with the CIA, Robert Baer, who has seen the flight logs, the jet is definitely involved in renditions. “The ultimate destinations of these flights are places that are involved in torture,” he says. Baer, who worked for the CIA in the Middle East for 21 years until he left in the mid-1990s, said such civilian jets were useful to the CIA because there were no military markings. “You can run these things out of shelf companies. You can set them up quickly, dismantle them when they are exposed; you can do it overnight - change the airplane if you have to. It’s fairly standard practice.”

Baer says rendition is about more than sending terrorists to be locked up in prison. Each country has its own value. “If you send a prisoner to Jordan you get a better interrogation. If you send a prisoner to Egypt you will probably never see him again; the same with Syria.” Countries such as Syria might seem to be US enemies but remain allies in the secret war against Islamic militancy. Baer says: “The simple rule in the Middle East is my enemy’s enemy is my friend . . . that’s the way it works. All of these countries are suffering in one way or another from Islamic fundamentalism, militant Islam.” For years the Syrians have offered to work with the US against Islamic militancy. “So at least until 11 September these offers were turned down. We generally avoided the Egyptians and the Syrians because they were so brutal.”

Baer believes the CIA has been carrying out renditions for years, but they became bigger and more systematic after 9/11. He says hundreds of prisoners, more than were sent to Guantánamo, may have been sent by the US to Middle Eastern prisons and that 9/11 had “justified scrapping the Geneva Convention” and was the end of “our rule of law as we knew it in the West”.

(snip)

Scheuer {Michael Scheuer, who in the late 1990s headed the unit tasked with hunting down Osama bin Laden, was interviewed for a BBC Radio program, File on Four} insists that every rendition operation was approved by lawyers: “There is a large legal department within the CIA, and there is a section of the department of justice that is involved in legal interpretations for intelligence work, and there is a team of lawyers at the national security council. And on all of these things those lawyers are involved in one way or another and have signed off on the procedure. The idea that somehow this is a rogue operation that someone has dreamed up is just absurd.” Scheuer recalls that when he organised such operations, the authority had to come from director of central intelligence or his assistant director. “So basically the number one and two men in the intelligence community are the ones who sign off.”

(snip)

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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hey, I ran across this one today too ..
because I was reading overseas newspapers.

It was a goodie.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yes, it is most definitely a goodie. Have you seen this web site
for foreign news about the US? It's a wonderful resource for those of us who only speak English and are wary of the propaganda-filled, santitized version of the news we get from US vendors. Papers like the Guardian (UK) are helpful, but this web site takes you all over the world with translated articles:
http://www.watchingamerica.com

Wait til you see what the Russians thought of Condi!
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Wow, what a great site.
Thanks. I bookmarked it.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. What did Tenet know and when did he know it?
Scheuer recalls that when he organised such operations, the authority had to come from director of central intelligence or his assistant director. “So basically the number one and two men in the intelligence community are the ones who sign off.”
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-22-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yes, Tenet knew. It also re-emphasizes the significance of Gonzales's
Edited on Fri Apr-22-05 11:56 PM by Nothing Without Hope
legal memos saying torture was fine. According to this article, it's all done with an elaborate faux legal underpinning - I say "faux" because there would be outrage if the courts of the US ever found out what these people are taking as legal. No wonder people like Gonzales with his flexible idea of what torture is and when it is "justified" are so valuable to them!

Read the whole article. And then think again about how likely it is (of course it never was) that all the torture that was accidentally exposed at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere really was the sole work of those "few bad apples."

ed:sp

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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. 'rendition'
Suddenly a dark and creepy word.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. If you read the full article, you'll find that the OFFICIAL term
...coined by the CIA, is “extraordinary rendition." Sounds important, and clean and daring, doesn't it? Let's hear it for the power of framing language.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you a Must Read ! Recommended
"To be fair to Scheuer, he has concerns about rendition as a long-term tactic. He believes that dictatorial regimes such as Egypt and Jordan cause Islamic militancy, so it makes little strategic sense to be working closely with them. “Any kind of a detainee capture is a technical success, but in the strategic sense we are losing, and one of the main reasons is because of our support for dictatorships in the Muslim world.”
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. I've also posted it at Daily Kos. And here's a TinyURL for this thread:
to take the place of the long DU one: http://tinyurl.com/al8xp

The link for the parallel post as a Kos diary entry:
http://www.dailykos.com/hotlist/add/2005/4/23/1577/49097/displaystory
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
10. kick n't
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
11. Self-correction on the date of this article - it's the April ISSUE
I don't know how that got changed to "April 5." I don't know on what date it was actually published.
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ngGale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Great site...Kick...
n/t
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
13. kick - This needs to be compared with what Hersh has written n/t
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
14. Earlier parts of this story have broadcast on the BBC and published
in the Sunday Times and in the Atlantic Monthly. Links to the broadcast and its transcript as well as to other earlier articles are at the writer's blog (http://www.stephengrey.com - scroll down).

This is an amazing body of work and it needs to be compared with the reports of Seymour Hersh.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
15. Baer's written a couple of books.
See No Evil: The True Story of Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism

and

Sleeping with the Devil: How Washington Sold Our Soul for Saudi Crude



His books are a bit flashy for my taste.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Baer was not the only source. And the author of the article, Stephen Grey,
is a respected British investigative journalist who has had parts of the story broadcast on the BBC and published in reputable venues such as the Sunday Times and The Atlantic Monthly. Links to these and more are at his web site, http://www.stephengrey.com.

This needs to be looked into - I feel it could be as important as what Seymour Hersh has found.
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funflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Not doubting the veracity of it
His books are interesting. Just a few too many Ferraris in them.

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
16. Ironic - 4 top Army officers have just been CLEARED of Torture/Abuse
charges. See this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1740900
Thread title: MASSIVE TORTURE/ABUSE COVERUP – 4 top Army officers CLEARED
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
18. KICK - please read this article! n/t
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
20. I'm losing/lost all faith in my country! This is just sickening!
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Don't lose faith in your country, this can happen because it's SECRET
Help pass the word, get it OUT! There are good people in this country that will DO SOMETHING if they know about this!!!

If they believe iin Daily Kos more, give them this link where I've posted it in a Diary there, and tell them to be sure to check the comments too:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/4/23/1577/49097
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
22. The Iraqi/Zarqawi method of torture is preferrable......
I am talking about slitting the throat until the head falls
off. It is quick and effective.

It sure eliminates the days and weeks and months of humiliation
imposed on Iraqi's by forcing them to wear female underwear and
photographing them in perverted positions, at Abu Ghraib.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-05 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. kick n/t
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
24. kick - why hasn't this gotten much attention? n/t
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
25. 'Ghost' jet used for terror suspects
From correspondents in Washington
December 29, 2004
A US jet registered to a ghost company whisks terror suspects to countries that use torture, according to the Washington Post.

The Gulfstream V turbojet had been seen at US military bases around the world, often loading hooded and shackled suspects and delivering them to countries known to use torture, a process the CIA calls "rendition", the newspaper said.

The jet, with the tail number N379P, had been seen in Afghanistan, Indonesia, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Morocco, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan.

The executives of the plane's corporate owner, Premier Executive Transport Services, were all listed with dates of birth in the 1940s, 50s and 60s, but with social security numbers issued since 1998, the Post said. It was unable to locate any further business or credit information on them or the company.

....

The "rendering" of suspects to countries that employ interrogation techniques banned in the US is worrying and could violate the UN Convention on Torture, said Morton Sklar, US executive director of the World Organisation for Human Rights
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11799413%255E401,00.html



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1103442
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Thank you for this - why has this not been picked up the way Hersh's
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 08:01 PM by Nothing Without Hope
findings have been?

"Ghost" jet - how chillngly appropriate - people disappear tracelessly in a plane flown by a crew with no identity. And it's all hidden, secret, uncontrolled. They can and do absolutely ANYTHING.

May I post about the Ghost jet and the other things you pointed out in further posts here and at Kos?
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Sure, of course
:hi:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Thanks! If you want, I can PM you if/when I do repost on this subject
I think I will - it needs more attention than it's gotten so far. I don't understand why the interest level has been so low, when Hersh's reports have been avidly read. :shrug:
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. There was one or two more LBN threads
I'll look for them and post here.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Here they are
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Thank you! All of this plus Stephen Grey's work and any others need
be collected together and publicized.

I had heard about that funny business with the Red Sox jet but had not read those articles and did not know it was tied to THIS!!!
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Thanks - that would be very helpful
I'll also dig through Stephen Grey's earlier work and see if we can put together something that will get more attention at DU
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. dupe
Edited on Sun Apr-24-05 11:17 PM by seemslikeadream
:hi:
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-05 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. Hideous and pitiful...
What has our country come to?
We are paying for this.
Our tax dollars are funding these
crimes against humanity.
"They hate us for our freedom?"
Don't think so.
BHN
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-05 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
35. kick n/t
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