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Why Kerry Is The Heavyweight Champ of Foreign Policy

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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:00 PM
Original message
Why Kerry Is The Heavyweight Champ of Foreign Policy
I recently did a comparison of Dean's recent foreign policy speech, and Kerry's at Georgetown in January.

Although Dean shares many of Kerry's ideas, and his speech in many ways seems an echo of the Georgetown speech, there are several points where Dean is clearly not in the same league. I will only focus on the major example.

This is Dean's cursory mention of the relation between economic trade and terrorism - draining the swamps. It is pitifully short on detail, considering he had months to study Kerry's speech.


"We must recognize the importance of spreading the benefits of economic growth as widely as possible. The growth of multinational corporations and the globalization of the economy have helped create wealth and economic growth. But we must make certain that people in the developing world are full and equal beneficiaries in this growth and are not marginalized by it.

As long as half the world's population subsists on less than two dollars a day, the U.S. will not be secure. Poor states and failed states provide breeding grounds for disease as well as recruits and safe havens for terrorists. A world populated by "hostile have-nots" is not one in which U.S. leadership can be sustained without coercion.

We want a trade and development policy that does not enrich the minority but will empower the majority.

In addition to supporting the growth of fair global trade, we must use our foreign assistance monies strategically to support the rule of law, combat corruption, help the most needy and assist governments in creating democracies and developing infrastructure and human resources in their countries."

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_speech_foreign_cfr#

All noble ends, but not much on how he actually intends to impliment these sentiments. Compare Kerry's (feel free to copy and paste it to Microsoft Word if it's too hard to read):

"While we must remain determined to defeat terrorism, it isn't only terrorism we are fighting. It's the beliefs that motivate terrorists. A new ideology of hatred and intolerance has arisen to challenge America and liberal democracy. It seeks a war of Islam - as defined by extremists - against the rest of the world and we must be clear its epicenter is the Greater Middle East.

It's critical that we recognize the conditions that are breeding this virulent new form of anti-American terrorism. If you look at countries stretching from Morocco through the Middle East and beyond...broadly speaking the western Muslim world...what you see is a civilization under extraordinary stress.

The region's political and economic crisis is vividly captured in a recent report written by Arab scholars for the United Nations Development Program and the Arab Fund for Social and Economic Development. Let me quote:

"The wave of democracy that transformed governance in most of the world has barely reached the Arab states...The freedom deficit undermines human development and is one of the most painful manifestations of lagging political development."

According to Freedom House, there are no full-fledged democracies among the 16 Arab states of the Middle East and North Africa. The Middle East is not monolithic; there are governments making progress and struggling effectively with change in Jordan, Morocco and Qatar. But Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Syria are among the 10 least free nations in the world.

Political and economic participation among Arab women is the lowest in the world and more than half of Arab women are still illiterate. And these countries are among the most economically isolated in the world, with very little trade apart from the oil royalties which flow to those at the very top.

Since 1980, the share of world trade held by the 57 member countries of the Organization of the Islamic Conference has fallen from 15 percent to just four percent.The same countries attracted only $13.6 billion worth of foreign direct investment in 2001. That is just $600 million - only about 5 % more than Sweden, which has only 9 million people compared to 1.3 billion people.

In 1969, the GDP of South Korea and Egypt were almost identical. Today, South Korea boasts one of the 20 largest economies in the world while Egypt's remains economically frozen almost exactly where it was thirty years before.

A combination of harsh political repression, economic stagnation, lack of education and opportunity, and rapid population growth has proven simply explosive. The streets are full of young people who have no jobs... no prospects... no voice. State-controlled media encourage a culture of self-pity, victimhood and blame-shifting. This is the breeding ground for present and future hostility to the West and our values.

From this perspective, it's clear that we need more than a one-dimensional war on terror. Of course we need to hunt down and destroy those who are plotting mass murder against Americans and innocent people from Africa to Asia to Europe.

We must drain the swamps of terrorists; but you don't have a prayer of doing so if you leave the poisoned sources to gather and flow again. That means we must help the vast majority people of the greater Middle East build a better future. We need to illuminate an alternative path to a futile Jihad against the world...a path that leads to deeper integration of the greater Middle East into the modern world order.

The Middle East isn't on the Bush Administration's trade agenda. We need to put it there.

The United States and its transatlantic partners should launch a high-profile Middle East trade initiative designed to stop the economic regression in the Middle East and spark investment, trade and growth in the region. It should aim at dismantling trade barriers that are among the highest in the world, encouraging participation in world trade policy and ending the deep economic isolation of many of the region's countries.

I propose the following policy goals:

We should build on the success of Clinton Administration's Jordan Free Trade Agreement. Since the United States reduced tariffs on goods made in "qualifying industrial zones," Jordan's exports to the US jumped from $16 to $400 million, creating about 40,000 jobs. Let's provide similar incentives to other countries that agree to join the WTO, stop boycotting Israel and supporting Palestinian violence against Israel, and open up their economies.

We should also create a general duty-free program for the region, just as we've done in the Caribbean Basin Initiative and the Andean Trade Preference Act. Again, we should set some conditions: full cooperation in the war on terror, anti-corruption measures, non-compliance with the Israel boycott, respect for core labor standards and progress toward human rights.

Let's be clear: Our goal is not to impose some western free market ideology on the greater Middle East. It's to open up a region that is now closed to opportunity, an outpost of economic exclusion and stagnation in a fast-globalizing world.

These countries suffer from too little globalization, not too much. Without greater investment, without greater trade within the region and with the outside world, without the transparency and legal protections that modern economies need to thrive, how will these countries ever be able to grow fast enough to provide jobs and better living standards for their people?

But as we extend the benefits of globalization to people in the greater Middle East and the developing world in general, we also need to confront globalization's dark side.

We should use the leverage of capital flows and trade to lift, not lower, international labor and environmental standards. We should strengthen the IMF's ability to prevent financial panics from turning into full-scale economic meltdowns such as we've seen in Argentina. And in the Middle East especially, we need to be sensitive to fears that globalization will corrupt or completely submerge traditional cultures and mores. We can do these things."

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2003_0123.html
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. LOL.
"And away we go."

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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I Love The Smell of Flamebait
Seems like there's an endless supply, doesn't there? :-)

Quick comment here. With nearly two thirds of the Iowa caucus participants against the Iraq War according to polls, methinks it's not a good strategy for the Kerry Campaign to go anywhere near that issue. (Just a bit of friendly advice.) Kerry's got tons of cred among Democrats, and he needs to spend that instead. Although I always have my suspicions that these sorts of posts are really from Kerry supporters. I'll also add that the foreign policy-oriented Democratic voters have lots of other, more visible (and compelling) choices on that issue, including Joe Lieberman, Bob Graham, and perhaps Wesley Clark.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Why Is An Actual - Gasp! - Policy Debate Considered Flamebait?
I would like to see Dean supporters put their money where their mouths are, stop leaning on the IWR crutch. Does their candidate have the chops or not?

As far as Iraq, Kerry's position may be unpopular with internet activists, but it is right in line with the vast majority of Americans. Nearly everyone I've spoken to thought Saddam needed to be held accountable, but Bush did a totally incompetent job of disarming Saddam. They think Bush rushed to war, failed to plan for the peace, and even failed to find the WMDs - which surely were there, even in small numbers.

So let's here some policy talk from the Dean people! Or would they rather stick to IWR and cheesesteaks?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. The word on the street is that
Kerry is "pacing himself." True or not, he better start unpacing himself. (Just a bit of friendly advice).
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Kerry's Going To Announce On An Aircraft Carrier
Kerry campaign opts to pick up pace in fall
July 9, 2003


Boston Globe - Senator John F. Kerry is planning a burst of campaign activity this fall, including a formal announcement speech possibly set against a backdrop of the USS Constitution, in a concerted effort to elevate his presidential candidacy among the Democratic contenders and cast himself as the party's most credible alternative to President Bush.
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Pavlovs DiOgie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. OMG
Please say it isn't so. He's not really going to copy Bush's disguisting photo op, is he? I hope he finds a way to come across less like Bush and more like his own person, and not use the patriotic angle, which is what divided this country in the first place (you're either for us or against us). It will come across as quite phony.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. kerry is a military guy
bush is the phony. kerry actually served.
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Bryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. The [i]USS Constitution[/i] isn't an aircraft carrier
http://www.ussconstitution.navy.mil/

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/constitution/iron-hist.html

Built in 1794, the Constitution was one of the original ships commissioned by Congress for the use of the U.S. Navy. It's maintained today as a historical landmark under the auspices of the National Park Service and the Naval Historical Society, and is moored in the Charlestown Navy Yard in Charlestown, MA.

Its appeal to the Kerry campaign is obvious; a naval landmark of considerable historical significance, it's local to Kerry's HQ, underscores his status as a veteran (and a Navy man), and makes a visually striking backdrop for TV cameras. It still might come off as OTT (I hope Kerry doesn't have the crew arrange to take it for a spin around the harbor, and if he puts on a captain's hat he'll certainly tank in the primaries, because all of his supporters will die of embarrassment), but it's not quite the same thing as forcing the Navy to inconvenience its active personnel to meet one's desire for a macho photo op.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Oh...It's Like a Pirate Ship Except Without All The Gay People
Well, almost.

<>

I thought it was like a big battleship. But this is more like Playmobile.

<>
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. Oh I was hoping this was right!
I really didn't want to see him announce on a current military ship. Like you say, if done with no silly frills, the Constitution would be great. I was thinking earlier he might want to implement a little Revolutionary War history into his campaign and remind people that part of the country is more than, well, I don't know, I've never been there! I'm looking forward to it and I know his speech will be awesome too, make Bush look like he needs to go back to Toastmasters!
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
51. The Guardian suggest's the Dems repeat the Goldwater "Extremism" speech
"Extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice ... Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." Barry Goldwater said that 40 years ago. It was the start of the recovery of the right.

The words now belong rather exactly in the other side's mouth. If they came ...this autumn, they'd make ... sound less like a calculating wimp.



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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #51
57. Yeah, Goldwater Was Real Successful
Personally, I can't wait 30 years for liberal extremism to come into vogue.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. couldnt agree more with this part
It's critical that we recognize the conditions that are breeding this virulent new form of anti-American terrorism.

I dont think kerry or dean really gets this though.

The single largest breeder of terorism is Us policy towards israel and behind that towards arab states. Till we get that right we will never adress terrorism no matter how many legs up we give them.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. At least Dean understands that our presence in Iraq is
probably making us less safe. As for Kerry... :shrug:
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Kerry Loves It, He Wants Us To Stay For Years
<>
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I thought this was his roadmap:
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Dean Vs. Kerry On Israel (Day and Night)
Howard Dean (note how incredible one-sided he is):

"When they have bothered to state them, the Administration's guiding principles in the Middle East are the right ones. Terrorism against Israel must end. A two-state solution is the only path to eventual peace, but Palestinian territory cannot have the capability of being used as a platform for attacking Israel.

Some degree of separation between Israelis and Palestinians is probably necessary in light of the horrible bloodshed of the past two years.

<>

To be viable, the Palestinian Authority must become democratic and purged of corruption.

But none of this will happen naturally. The United States is the only country with the ability to give both sides the confidence to move toward a future of co-existence. Appearances matter, and if we are not engaged, it looks like we simply do not care and that we have condemned the entire Palestinian people because of their leadership. In my view, this hurts the United States, it hurts Israel, and it makes it less likely the violence and the terrorism will end."

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5606&news_iv_ctrl=1421

Now compare with Kerry's call for PARALLEL concessions:

"Israel is our ally, the only true democracy in this troubled region, and we know that Israel as a partner is fundamental to our security. From Truman through Clinton, America has always been committed to Israel's independence and survival - we will never waver.

Israel's security will be best assured over the long term if real and lasting peace can be brought to the Middle East. I know from my own trips to Israel that the majority of the Israeli people understand and expect that one day there will be a Palestinian state.

Their frustration is that they do not see a committed partner in peace on the Palestinian side. Palestinians must stop the violence - this is the fundamental building block of the peace process. The Palestinian leadership must be reformed, not only for the future of the Palestinian people but also for the sake of peace.

I believe Israel would respond to this new partner after all, Israel has already indicated its willingness to freeze settlements and to move toward the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of a comprehensive peace process.

Without demanding unilateral concessions, the United States must mediate a series of confidence building steps which start down the road to peace. Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it.

While maintaining our long term commitment to Israel's existence and security, the United States must work to keep both sides focused on the end game of peace. Extremists must not be allowed to control this process.

American engagement and successful mediation are not only essential to peace in this war-torn area but also critical to the success of our own efforts in the war against terrorism.

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2003_0123.html

Every major Palestinian scholar agrees that PARALLEL concessions are the only road to lasting peace. I wish someone would have told Howard Dean that.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Gotta agree
Kerry looks a whole lot better on this position.

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tsipple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
18. Re: Israel v. Palestine
I think we can all agree that Dean, Kerry, or any other Democratic president would be a vast improvement over the existing administration. I think we can further agree that we're very much splitting hairs here in thinking that Dean, Kerry, or any other Democrat would have different policies concerning Israel and Palestine. Both would likely appoint similar (if not identical) foreign policy experts to senior posts, carrying out similar policies in similar ways.

That said -- and excuse me for stating a viewpoint as a complete outsider with no dog in this hunt -- I think it's fair to say that the tiny minority of Palestinians who do it are indeed waging a war of terror, targeting women, children, and other civilians. One can certainly say that at the same time one says that Israel has been way too heavy handed, resulting in the deaths of Palestinian civilians. Israel also has a settlement policy which exacerbates the tensions. But I don't think there's a total moral equivalence here.

Now, as to the quotes you provide from Dean and Kerry... You forgot to bold the first three Kerry paragraphs which seem incredibly "one sided" according to your definition. Starting with "Israel is our ally" (Palestine is not?), for example. Both men are ever-so-slightly rhetorically favoring Israel. And I think that's about right, quite frankly.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Palestinians Would Not Consider It Splitting Hairs
Yes, Kerry starts with three pro-Israel paragraphs to make it absolutely clear the importance of Israel to our national interests, but then says that Israel's interests and our own are in committing to parallel concessions.

Sharon would like very much to keep the situation as Dean would have it. There will NEVER be a full end to Palestinian violence when the Israeli army is given a free hand, and the bulldozers continue to tear down Palestinian homes and destroy their essential infrastructure.

Kerry is being absolutely clear that he will not accept Palestinian violence, but that the road to peace cannot be ruled by the extremists ON EITHER END. Dean condemns Palestinian violence, but makes no mention of the daily violence of the Israelis as well.

Look at the bodycount. Palestinians have double, going on triple, the deaths directly related to the tensions. That does not count people who die as a result of lack of adequate water, or malnutrition as vegetables rot during lengthy curfews.

No Palestinian death justifies killing an innocent Israeli, but the peace process MUST move forward. It cannot wait for some utopian peace to occur beforehand. Its like asking someone to stop hitting you while your foot is on their neck.
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CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. While Kerry has some very solid foreign policy credentials
in comparison to Dean, who has been a governor, on the central foreign policy issue to confront this nation in the past several years, the War on Iraq, Kerry was on the wrong side of history,imo, and Dean, the foreign policy novice, was on the right side.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
15. How many innocent civilians have died thanks to Kerry's credentials?
Kerry has innocent blood on his hands. He is as guilty of war crimes as Bush is.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. how many died because of the sanctions
would you accuse anyone who supported the sanctions of murder ? or anyone who supports the war on drugs?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yes and Yes
The sanctions were responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis, including children and infants.

The war on drugs is a farce, and Plan Colombia is nothing but a subterfuge for a war of genocide against insurgent peasants and workers in Colombia.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Kerry On Iraq Sanctions
Washington Journal, Spring 2001.

Nearly ten years after the United States and a coalition of allies defeated Saddam Hussein, the international sanctions regime against Iraq has clearly failed to force a change in leadership in Baghdad and has lost meaningful support in the world community as a means of eliminating his weapons programs.

Each newspaper story about commercial flights from Moscow or Paris into Baghdad International Airport further discredits the sanctions regime. Meanwhile, the people of Iraq continue to suffer terribly, as Saddam profits from the sanctions, using them as a tool for maintaining his reign of terror.

The oil-for-food program has improved access to food and medical supplies in Iraq, especially in the northern territories not under Saddam’s control, but humanitarian conditions in Iraq remain bleak.
In Congress, concern that Iraq is rebuilding its WMD programs is bipartisan.

Since the withdrawal of UN weapons inspectors from Iraq two years ago, however, little serious attention has been paid—either by the Congress or the White House—to addressing Iraq’s growing threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf region.

What little debate there might have been over the UN’s attempt to lift economic sanctions on Iraq in exchange for a resumption of inspections evaporated as it became clear that Saddam would not consider allowing UN inspectors to return.

In the absence of international inspections, it is vital that tight sanctions remain in place on exports of military goods and dual-use technologies to contain Iraq’s ability to threaten its neighbors. Secretary of State Colin Powell is preparing to reinvigorate the international sanctions regime. Such an effort is not only warranted, but long overdue.

Rebuilding the coalition to hold Saddam accountable to international law, however, will not be easy. Given the de facto evisceration of the UN sanctions regime, the United States may have to find another way to ensure that goods and technology meant for Iraq’s weapons programs do not find their way to Baghdad.

We should be willing to consider adjusting the current economic sanctions, as long as such a change is accompanied by renewed commitments from U.S. allies and others to enforce the sanctions on military and dual-use exports to Iraq.

http://www.twq.com/01spring/kerry.pdf

It is articles like this that make me believe that Kerry did not vote out of expediency in 2002. He really seems to have interests of the Iraqi people in mind, but still realized that Saddam had to be accounted for.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-17-03 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Kerry On North Korea From That Same Article
The Bush administration must resist pressure from some conservatives in Congress to significantly alter the current course of U.S. policy toward North Korea.

It is still too early to tell the real intentions and final outcome of the North’s efforts to reengage the outside world, but the United States should encourage further steps toward the normalization of relations between Pyongyang and our allies in Seoul and Tokyo.

Ending the North Korean nuclear program and stopping its development and proliferation of advanced ballistic missile technology will continue to dominate U.S. interests on the Korean Peninsula.

It is important that the Bush administration not allow the Congress to undermine the 1994 Agreed Framework, which holds real promise for verifiably freezing and eliminating the North Korean nuclear program in exchange for annual shipments of heavy fuel oil and the construction of two light-water reactors to provide a long-term energy source to North Korea.

If there are changes to be made in the framework, they must be negotiated and acceptable to all interested parties.

Congress should not unilaterally alter the agreement by underfunding or injecting new conditions on the promised U.S. contributions. Clearly, the United States—working with our allies in Seoul and Tokyo— must also continue efforts to curtail North Korea’s ballistic missile program.

Congress maintains serious concerns about the wisdom of trading U.S. assistance to a North Korean space program for a halt in its missile program. Congress should give the next administration full latitude, however, to negotiate a missile agreement that can reduce the threat to our allies and the U.S. public from North Korea’s missile programs.

http://www.twq.com/01spring/kerry.pdf

Once again, if Bush had followed Kerry's course of action, we wouldn't be knee-deep in BS right now.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. They don't WANT to "get it" Doc....
Then they'd have to admit they were unable to comprehend the facts in the first place.

It's easier for their mindset to believe that Kerry was for Bush's oil war than to believe that Kerry has long wanted Saddam ousted so sanctions against the people of Iraq could be lifted and a real democratic government of the Iraqi people emerge.

Many here fell onto the turnip truck of politics a bit recently and have no real context to their knee-jerk charges against Kerry and his vote for the Resolution.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Once They Get Off The Official IWR Mantra
There's apparently a good deal of silence.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Yep.
That whole "war thingy" is such an insignificant thing. It's nothing compared to I/P hypotheiticals, or Iraq sanction hypotheticals.

Stupid Anti-war people.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I'm An Anti-War Person
Who wants to talk about the whole shebang concerning foreign policy. I'm happy that Dean voted against the IWR, but that doesn't make him much of a candidate. Lots of Governors voted against the IWR, but they need a slightly more comprehensive policy.

After all the negative puff threads, I find the unwillingness of Dean supporters to come out in favor of Dean's foreign policy a little shameful. It would seem to make them more interested in Dean's fashion than his ideas.

After Dean's woeful Meet The Press performance, I would think Dean supporters would jump at the chance to prove their man has the chops to be king.
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George_Bonanza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. Correction: Dean didn't vote for anything
He says stuff, but his actions are blank, so it's all guesswork.
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groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. Kerry represents nothing more than the
liberal wing of the New World Order, as evidinced by his membership in the Council on Foreign Relations (One World Government) and skull & Bones. While he touts raising the issues of labor and environmental standards in trade agreements, he says nothing about the erosion of national sovereignty embedded in most of these trade agreements. He is a "one worlder." Give me Kucinich and what he stands for - stop the WTO & NAFTA.
Ask Kerry to explain this most fundamental statistic: the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Beware People Who Say "Nothing More Than" and "Plain and Simple"
Usually it means they can't back up what they're saying. Which is absolutely true in this case.

Do me a favor, try these link Mr. One World Boneskull:

Corporations are using investor rights contained in the North American Free Trade Agreement’s (NAFTA) Chapter 11 to challenge in closed NAFTA tribunals a variety of national, state and local policies and decisions.

"It’s nice they fixed a drafting error by passing the Baucus amendment," said Lori Wallach, director of Public Citizen’s Global Trade Watch. "Now the Senate needs to pass the Kerry Amendment to start fixing the NAFTA Chapter 11 problem."

Unlike the amendment sponsored by Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), the Baucus-Grassley Amendment does not set the U.S. Constitution as the benchmark for the scope of property rights available to foreign investors in the United States.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2002/0515-04.htm

The amendment was a modest reform that guaranteed much-needed changes in the NAFTA Chapter 11 investment model in future trade agreements. Under the model, foreign investors may file a claim in secret NAFTA tribunals to seek compensation when government public interest regulations in any way diminish the value of their investment.

In doing so, the amendment would have instructed U.S. trade negotiators to ensure that future investor provisions do not grant foreign investors rights beyond what the U.S. Constitution provides.

http://action.citizen.org/pc/issues/votes/?votenum=121&chamber=S&congress=1072

"These countries suffer from too little globalization, not too much. Without greater investment, without greater trade within the region and with the outside world, without the transparency and legal protections that modern economies need to thrive, how will these countries ever be able to grow fast enough to provide jobs and better living standards for their people?

But as we extend the benefits of globalization to people in the greater Middle East and the developing world in general, we also need to confront globalization's dark side.

We should use the leverage of capital flows and trade to lift, not lower, international labor and environmental standards. And in the Middle East especially, we need to be sensitive to fears that globalization will corrupt or completely submerge traditional cultures and mores. We can do these things."

The rich get richer because people vote for the guy that appeases their emotions, not the guy who has real answers. Shall I pull out what real plans Kerry has for corporate malfeasance reform? Kerry is a dog-fighter when it comes to corporate crime and corporate welfare.
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groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Let's see, first Kerry votes for this piece of shit
NAFTA, then he wants to make political hay out of fixing it!?! Oh, maybe it was just an honest mistake!
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Political Hay?
As in, "Hey, what the hell are you talking about?" This is the best argument you guys can come up with? You'd have more legitimacy bringing up Kerry's Skull & Bones conspiracy. Even Ralph Nader and Public Citizen are behind Kerry. In fact, much of Kerry's economic policy comes directly out of Green party reforms.

BTW, here is Friends of the Earth on the Kerry Amendment:

WASHINGTON - May 21 - Friends of the Earth expressed disappointment in the loss of an amendment to trade legislation that would have protected environmental standards from foreign investor lawsuits. The amendment, offered by Sen. John Kerry, sought to address concerns with investment rules like NAFTA's Chapter 11 that allow foreign corporations to bring suits against environmental laws and regulations.

"By voting against the Kerry amendment, the Senate has paved the way for more backdoor corporate assaults on laws that protect our air, water and land," said David Waskow, Friends of the Earth's trade policy coordinator. "The Senate should be protecting the health and safety of Americans, not watching the backs of wealthy polluters who make big campaign contributions."

http://www.commondreams.org/news2002/0521-13.htm

Good to see that Dean supporters are big enough to concede an issue to another candidate.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #30
48. Chops, get yer chops!

Two days ago, I formally launched my campaign for President with a call for a Great American Restoration.

I spoke of the need to restore the American people's faith in their political system and government. To restore our government's commitment to the values of community, equality, opportunity and justice for all. To restore our role as a world leader by setting a positive example and working together to meet the challenges facing the global community in this new century.

I believe that the United States has a special role to play in world affairs. We have long been an inspiration to all those around the world seeking democracy, freedom and opportunity.

We have shaped our own destiny and set an example for the world that through hard work every obstacle can be overcome.

Every candidate who seeks to lead America must keep this inspiration alive.

In recent months, I have traveled across the country and found a nation deeply troubled about the direction of U.S. national security policy today.

Americans do not understand how we could have squandered the precious opportunity we had after September 11 to unite the world in opposition to the likes of Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

They are concerned that international support for the war against terror is waning and, along with it, admiration and support for the United States.

They are confused that elections in countries long allied to us such as Germany and South Korea are now being decided on the basis of which candidate is more willing to stand up to oppose American policies.

They are astounded that increasing numbers of people in Europe, Asia and in our own hemisphere cite America not as the strongest pillar of freedom and democracy but as a threat to peace.

They are disturbed that brave men and women in our armed forces are being targeted systematically nearly two months after a war we were told had ended, in a country where we were assured that our troops would be welcomed as liberators.

There is a dawning realization across the land that despite winning a military battle in Iraq, the United States may be losing a larger war. That we may well be less secure today than we were two and a half years ago when this administration took office. And we have yet to see the report that details the events that led up to September 11th, so that we can improve our ability to respond in the future.

Americans are ready, I believe, to restore the best traditions of American leadership. Leadership in which our power is multiplied by the appeal of democratic ideals and by the knowledge that our country is a force for law around the world, not a law unto itself.

America became America by rebelling against imperial power.

America emerged from isolation to greatness by beating fascist power.

America became synonymous with justice by supporting independence for colonies from an imperial world.

America's ideals triumphed when it confronted communism to the point of extinction.

America is not Rome. We do not dream of empire. We dream of liberty for all.

In November 2004, the American people will seek a President who is prepared to use our brave and remarkable armed forces, as I would, to defend against any actual or imminent threat to ourselves or our friends and allies and in concert with others to deal with grave humanitarian crises.

They will seek a President skilled at garnering the support of allies, but willing to act, as I would, when it is necessary to protect and defend our country.

They will seek a President focused, as I would be, on the dismantling of terrorist organizations, the disruption of terrorist operations, the apprehension of terrorist planners and the prevention of terrorist efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction.

But they will also seek a President who would strive, as I would, not to divide the world into us versus them, but rather to rally the world around fundamental principles of decency, responsibility, freedom and mutual respect. Our foreign and military policy must be about the notion of America leading the world, not America against the world.

Presidents such as Truman, Eisenhower and Kennedy built and strengthened international institutions, rather than dismissing and disparaging the concerns of allies. They inspired and mobilized other countries because they believed there was no more powerful force on earth than that of free people working together.

They helped build global platforms such as the UN, NATO, and the World Bank, on which free people everywhere could stand. Our greatest leaders built America's reputation as the world's leading democracy by never resting until they had given life to American ideals.

That is why I do not accept that a candidate's national security credentials should be considered suspect for opposing the war in Iraq at the time it was initiated, with the limited level of international support we had, the lack of postwar planning that had been undertaken, and the failure to make the case that the threat was imminent enough to justify preventive action.

Some in the Democratic party claim that a candidate who questioned the war cannot lead the party in the great national debate that lies ahead.

I would remind them that during the Cuban Missile Crisis, President John F. Kennedy took on the hawks among the Joint Chiefs of Staff as well as the "me-too'ers" in Congress. The President and his advisors used toughness, patience, and diplomacy. The missiles came out of Cuba and war was averted.

Last October, four of the major contenders for the Democratic nomination supported the President's preemptive strike resolution five months before we went to war without, as we now realize, knowing the facts.

I stood up against this administration and even when 70% of the American people supported the war, I believed that the evidence was not there and I refused to change my view. As it turned out, I was right. No Democrat can beat George Bush without the same willingness that John F. Kennedy showed in 1962. A President must be tough, patient, and willing to take a course of action based on evidence, and not ideology.

I question the judgment of those who led us into this conflict this unfinished conflict that has made us, on balance, not more secure, but less. Although we may have won the war, we are failing to win the peace.

I believed then and I believe now that removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq was a just cause. But not every just cause requires that we go to war, especially with inadequate planning and without maximum support.

The Bush administration led us into war without convincing evidence that an imminent threat existed, without a strategy for securing nuclear, chemical and biological materials, without a plan for financing reconstruction, and without a clue how to consolidate the peace or unite the Iraqi people in support of democracy.

Today we face three critical problems, all connected with the manner in which we prosecuted the war. The first is accounting for the weapons of mass destruction, vital because of the implications for our own security as well as for the integrity and credibility of the United States and its leaders in the eyes of the world.

There are three possibilities. As the search continues, substantial stocks of these weapons may be found. In that case, we will still need to know why our intelligence failed and did not lead us to them more rapidly.

The other possibilities are that they will never be found because they no longer exist; or that they will never be found because they have already been stolen or transferred to others.

In any case, we need to know the truth.

Serious doubts about our integrity have been raised; not only in the streets of nations that do not know us well, but also in the parliaments and press rooms of countries that know us best. The checks and balances in the national security process in our Executive Branch have clearly broken down.

That's why it is imperative to have an independent, bipartisan, comprehensive and transparent investigation of how our intelligence on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction was developed and selectively used to justify war in Iraq. In other words, what did the President know and when did he know it?

The second major challenge results from a failure to plan for peace as fully as we planned for war. General Shinseki's professional military advice that 200,000 troops would be needed was rejected. I would add at least 50,000 foreign troops to the force in Iraq.

It is imperative that we bring the international community in to help stabilize Iraq. If I were President, I would reach out to NATO, to Arab and Islamic countries, to other friends to share the burden and the risks.

We need to consider the impact on our guard and reserve troops operating in Iraq. And we should ask that the forces of foreign friends and allies increasingly assume police and security missions. Our active duty military forces are the best trained and best equipped of any military force in the world. We must continue to be able to train them and prepare for other potential war-fighting missions that arise in this dangerous world.

This leads me to the third problem resulting from the single-minded focus on getting rid of Saddam. For nearly a year, we have been too distracted to focus on a number of other serious problems that have emerged.

While we focused on Iraq, we neglected the very real nuclear threats emerging in North Korea and Iran. For months we refused to see North Korea's nuclear challenge as a crisis--and now it is a declared nuclear power.

The Bush administration has not had talks with the North in over two months. It is foolish to refuse to have bilateral discussions with the North Koreans: we are, after all, the most powerful nation on the face of the earth and losing face should not be an issue.

The goal of our policy with North Korea must be to prevent continued nuclear proliferation on the Korean Peninsula and to prevent the transfer of weapons or materials to third parties or terrorists.

In Iran, we again must use the full range of economic and diplomatic tools at our disposal. We must work with the Europeans and the Russians to stop Iranian development of nuclear weapons and their support of terror. And we must do what we can to strengthen and encourage the voices among Iranian youth who are striving for true change and freedom.

Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden used our loss of focus to rebuild their terrorist networks, as recent deadly attacks on in Saudi Arabia and Morocco demonstrate.

While we focused on Iraq, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was neglected. The President, despite knowing how critical his personal involvement was, refused to engage for over two full years, squandering the momentum he inherited from the Clinton administration.

I am truly optimistic about the chances for peace in the Middle East. Our strongest asset is that majorities of both peoples in this conflict actually accept a two-state solution guaranteeing both sides security, sovereignty and dignity.

Most Israelis recognize that they will have to give back occupied land and give up settlements. Most Palestinians understand that there will never be a Palestinian state as long as terrorist attacks continue. Yet the Palestinians have assets that are often misunderstood. They have a high level of education. Palestinian women play a more significant role in government than in almost any other Arab society. And a large number of Palestinians have a significant experience with democracy, having lived in Europe, the United States and, of course, in Israel. Yassir Arafat is not the answer, but Abu Mazen and Salim Fayed, who I met with in Jerusalem, may well be the answer.

Finally, the United States must reduce its dependence on Middle Eastern oil and we must have a President who is willing to confront the Iranians, the Syrians, the Saudis, and others who send money to Hamas, and finance a worldwide network of fundamentalist schools which teach small children to hate Americans, Christians, and Jews.

Let us turn our attention to postwar Afghanistan. I supported the President's invasion of Afghanistan. Al Qaeda was and continues to be an imminent threat to the United States.

However, insufficient security assistance and economic investment are opening the door to civil strife and tribal warfare, again the very conditions that bred the Taliban in the first place. Our repeated assurances of aid and reconstruction have resulted in lost hope and empty promises for the people of Afghanistan once again.

The U.S. must redouble its effort to garner aid from the donor community and to increase to 30-40,000 the number of military troops our friends and allies commit to help us rebuild Afghanistan. For the United States to rely on warlords to keep peace in Afghanistan nearly two years after a successful military operation demonstrates an extraordinary lack of thoughtful vision.

Not only has the focus of this Administration's foreign policy been wrong. So is the manner in which it has been conducted.

Instead of the humility we were promised, this administration has acted with unparalleled arrogance and disregard for the concerns of others.

It has rejected a long list of multilaterally negotiated agreements: the comprehensive test ban, the Kyoto treaty, the Law of the Sea Treaty, the Biological Warfare Convention Protocol, the International Criminal Court, the Landmine convention; the list goes on and on. These treaties are not without flaws, but surely some could be ratified and others renegotiated. The answer is to work to rewrite them, and not to walk away from them.

The bedrock of our strength and security is provided by our economy, our military and our values. We cannot deny, however, that our strength derives in large measure as well from the extent to which others emulate and respect us abroad--and not by the extent to which they fear and loathe us.

America must not shy away from its role as the remaining superpower in the world. We are, as Madeleine Albright once put it, the "indispensable power" for so many challenges around the world. Inevitably, some will resent us for what we have, and some will hate us for what we believe.

But there is much in the world that we cannot achieve on our own. So we must lead toward clearly articulated and shared goals and with the cooperation and respect of friends and allies.

As President, I would set four goals for American leadership:

First, defeat the threat posed by terrorists, tyrants, and technologies of mass destruction.

Second, strengthen our alliances and ensure Russia and China are fully integrated into a stable international order.

Third, enlarge the circle of beneficiaries of the growing world economy.

And fourth, ensure that life on our fragile planet is sustainable.

Preemptive war against tyrannical dictators is not a comprehensive strategy for addressing the threat that terrorists, tyrants, and technologies of mass destruction pose in the 21st century.

In fact, misuse of the doctrine may have the opposite effect.

In the profession of medicine, the first rule is to do no harm. To deal with the long-term terrorist threat we must root out and destroy the terrorists, their networks and their support systems. But in doing so, we must not provide them with a rationale for new recruits.

In this fight, it is essential that America lead by example and exercise power responsibly. Only in that way can we hope to eliminate support for the next generation of extremists who regard our culture and our actions not simply with envy or jealousy but with a deep-seated hatred over the manner in which we conduct our affairs.

The Clinton administration was committed to military engagement with friends and allies around the world, helping to train and equip these countries so that they were better prepared to work with the U.S. in shouldering this burden. As President, my administration would redouble these efforts.

Here at home, we need a real commitment to homeland security. As President, I would immediately devote significant new resources to preventing, managing and responding to potential and actual terrorist threats here at home. If we can spend $400 billion to defend our nation from threats abroad, as we must, should we not spend more to defend our nation at home?

We need to devote more resources to fully fund, equip and train first responders across the nation: the policemen, firemen, emergency room personnel, and hundreds of thousands of other Americans that form the first line of defense against terrorism. We simply must provide significant new resources to state and local governments, specifically earmarked for these purposes.

With only 4 percent of 5.7 million containers arriving at our 361 seaports annually inspected, this is one of the greatest points of vulnerability that must be addressed, not tomorrow, but today.

We need to allocate the funds necessary to address the threat of weapons of mass destruction or weapons-grade material ending up in the hands of terrorists. The Cooperative Threat Reduction program with Russia and other former Soviet states is working, it just requires much more money to get the job done right.

Homeland security does not stop at our borders. Success in confronting these threats hinges on the willingness of our friends and allies to work with us. We need the benefit of their intelligence, the assistance of their security and transportation agencies, and the collaboration of their customs offices.

We must strengthen nonproliferation treaties, limit access to nuclear and other dangerous materials, apply coercive diplomacy and, as a last resort, take military action to remove weapons programs and facilities. All of these steps are best taken in concert with other countries, not alone.

Our second priority should be strengthening our bonds with other countries, especially our historical allies in a world growing ever more interdependent. Conducting foreign policy by posse may be expedient, but it is short-sighted and far less stable than a world order built on enduring relationships and viable international institutions.

I would lead this country back to a strong commitment to international alliances and institutions that are the backbone of a stable international order. In an increasingly complex and dangerous world, the more that our destinies are intertwined, the greater the shared sense of purpose, the more likely it is that we will work together successfully to address the difficult challenges ahead.

And we must do this not only with our traditional friends and allies in Latin America, Europe, Asia and Africa, but with such critical powers as Russia and China, both of whom must be fully integrated into the international community as our partners.

Third, we must recognize the importance of spreading the benefits of economic growth as widely as possible. The growth of multinational corporations and the globalization of the economy have helped create wealth and economic growth. But we must make certain that people in the developing world are full and equal beneficiaries in this growth and are not marginalized by it.

As long as half the world's population subsists on less than two dollars a day, the U.S. will not be secure. Poor states and failed states provide breeding grounds for disease as well as recruits and safe havens for terrorists. A world populated by "hostile have-nots" is not one in which U.S. leadership can be sustained without coercion.

We want a trade and development policy that does not enrich the minority but will empower the majority.

In addition to supporting the growth of fair global trade, we must use our foreign assistance monies strategically to support the rule of law, combat corruption, help the most needy and assist governments in creating democracies and developing infrastructure and human resources in their countries. We must bring still more energy to the cooperative battle against HIV/AIDS, which in too many countries is undermining security and tearing the heart out of economies, communities, and entire generations.

Finally, the United States must step to the forefront and promote sustainable development. We cannot ignore climate change, population growth, famine, or the many other global problems that we face. To address them, we must break free of the special interests that constrain our ability to tackle these serious problems.

How can we effectively address burgeoning population growth when this President has revived the "Mexico City policy" imposing a gag order on international family planning providers?

How can we combat AIDS when right-wing ideology is allowed to stand in the way of the promotion of practices most effective at prevention in different societies?

How can we fight global climate change when our energy and environmental policies are created at the behest of contributors from the oil and gas industry who prefer no meaningful action? When critical information on global warming is edited out of EPA reports by White House staff?

I believe that a failure to lead on an issue of this magnitude is immoral. As the world's biggest polluter, we have a special responsibility to take action and to lead the world in combating this gathering crisis.

Fifty-five years ago, President Harry Truman delivered what was known as the Four Point speech. In it, he challenged Democrats and Republicans alike to come together to build strong and effective international organizations; to support arrangements that would spur global economic recovery; to join with free people everywhere in the defense of human liberty; and to draw upon the genius of our people to help societies who needed help in the battle against hunger and illness, ignorance and despair.

This was at the very beginning of the cold war.

America was threatened by a powerful and hostile empire, that was backed by a massive military, bolstered by satellite states, and in the process of developing the hydrogen bomb.

At that moment of maximum peril, President Truman went before the world to spell out not only what America was against, but much more importantly, what America was for.

He did so because he had faith that if America were true to her own principles and values, we could in the long run defeat any foe, no matter how deadly.

He believed that if America reached out to others in friendship and with respect, our strength would be multiplied and that more and more countries would support our policies, not because we told them to, but because they wanted to.

Harry Truman believed that a world in which even the poorest and most desperate had grounds for hope would be a world in which our own children could grow up in security and peace, not because evil would then be absent from the globe, but because the forces of right would be united and strong.

Harry Truman had faith as I have faith, and as I believe the American people have faith, that if we are wise enough and determined enough in our opposition to hate and our promotion of tolerance, in our opposition to aggression and our fidelity to law, we will have allies not only among governments, but among people everywhere.

Such an alliance can never be beaten.

And the creation of such an alliance will be my goal if I am entrusted with the presidency of the United States. Because this is what will keep America strong. This is what reflects the best in the American people. And this is the core of the national security message that I will be carrying to all of America throughout this campaign, that I am committed to working constructively with friends and allies around the globe to help people in every corner of every continent to live in freedom, prosperity and peace.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. The Road To Hell Is Paved With Good Intentions
I'm not saying that Dean doesn't have good intentions. In fact, his intentions are why he's my #2 choice. But there is a world of difference between intentions and follow-through. My point is not that Dean doesn't have noble ends, but that he doesn't have the means to achieve them. And, as you know, the ends do not justify the means.

If you want to specify certain specific plans, I'll be more than happy to discuss them. I already printed out and analyzed his Drake speech, which is what brought me to the conclusion that Dean is a lightweight. Not only a lightweight, but one with some very wrong-headed ideas about the Mid-East situation.

The world is too dangerous a place to elect someone who means well.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Your argument is that he is/has been ineffective in changing the
direction of our government concerning the plight of the Iraqi people. Mumbo jumbo platitudes hardly replace effective leadership on the issue. Where was Kerry when the 'Iraqi Bombing Document' was being voted on. Front and center mumbling and giving his vote and blessings to Chimpy. Obscure and ineffective late night doodlings have resulted in a catastrophe for the Iraqis and America.

Kerry's problem is that he appears to have no one on the payroll who advises him and no direction himself. Standing on a carrier (like Cher?) will do little for his problematic campaign.

Dean '04
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Why Are You Afraid To Compare Dean and Kerry?
Stop running behind the IWR. What is Dean going to do in the future? Now is your opportunity to say something besides Dean was the only viable candidate that voted "no" (oh, wait - that was Dean saying that). Where's the beef?
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. O.K. Funky. Comparison of Kerry and Dean:
Dean A+
Kerry D-

Happy???

Dean '04...Dare to Compare
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I Think You Just Spoke Volumes
<>

Yes. Yes, I am happy. I'm just not sure about Dean.

<>


It looks like he wants you guys to back him up a little better.
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #33
47. You surmise Dean's campaign has problems????? Seems rather 'on
track' to me.

Dean '04
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #47
58. Do You Just Make Up What You Want Me To Say?
If you want to talk for me, go right ahead. Until then, you've just evaded the subject yet again.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. True
The only way to possible guess what Dean actually would have done about the Iraq Act. Since Deand stated he owld have voted for Biden-Lugar, Dena would have voted for war with Iraq, because ther was nothing in Biden Lugar that would have been able to stop Bush from going to war. As a consequence, Dean would have supported going to war if he was in a position to sign an act.

Biden Lugar itself gave FAR more support to Bush's Actions.

Biden wrote most of the October Resolution itself, and the Biden Lugar Amendment itself was written because the resolution itself was felt to limit the president too much.

As a matter of fact, Dean stated what he would have done in an intervier with Salon.com:

"As I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

http://www.howardsmusings.com/2003/02/20/salon_on_the_campaign_trail_with_the_unbush.html

Actually, this statement goes MUCH further in supporting Bush's actions than the October Resolution does, as the Resolution itself sets no time limits on what it would consider how long the president must take to try to find a diplomatic solution within the U.N. and Dean states that if the U.N. did not see fit to take action, we should wait 30-60 days and then attack without any international support at all.

But one cannot take anything Dean says while running for office seriously, and the only hint of what he might do can be found in his record as governor.

As governor he almost exclusively supported Republican legislation and oppposed liberal legislation, so one must assume that Dean, if there was not a campaign at hand, would have voted as he has in the past. In total support of whatever the Republicans proposed
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Off The IWR Mantra
Let's give the Dean supporters a chance to compare foreign policies with Kerry. I'm sure they want to express their admiration for Dean's far-reaching vision. Let's give them the chance.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
36. the war does seem to have gone on for years
if you think about it, the sanctions, the almost daily bombings since the gulf war, the war which started in the early 90's had been going on. i opposed this bush war, and still do. but i read an article a few months ago on the protests. it was by a liberal. it said the peace protestors should have done this years ago and protested against the sanctions, the bombings etc. i did oppose the sanctions ever since i heard of them, including when clinton was in office.
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Zuni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #17
46. I wouldn't describe the FARC
as insurgent peasants. They are a highly trained vanguard party of ruthless killers. Extremely discliplined and quite extremist. They kill those peasants all the time.

Besides, Uribe (last I saw he has an 80% approval rating) was elected with an overwhelming majority to take strong action against them--Columbia is sick of paramilitaries, insurgents, terrorists, guerillas and drug lords. Uribe won the election despite the fact that FARC threatened to kill innocents in retaliation for vites for Uribe.

Be careful when you toss the word Genocide around. This is hardly the case in Columbia.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #46
56. Urribe is a thug and a mass murderer
A man that ran his own death squads and that has little interest in human rights.

Oh, yes, I do support the FARC in its struggle to topple the Colombian ruling class from power, as I support the NPA in the Philippines!
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #15
35. I voted for Kerry in the last election. I'm I guilty, too?
I don't see how I'm not if I enabled the enabler. I must also have innocent blood on my hands.

I think it is very comfortable to define oneself outside of blame, and others inside. I think that is what you have done here. I think as citizens of this country, we all stained to a degree. So, we can either continue to condemn ourselves for the past, or move on.

Kerry is one of the good guys, for your information. It is not fair to reduce him down to a single vote.
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idlisambar Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
37. Kerry has knowledge, but has not demonstrated judgment
Kerry's speech gives more detail, but the sentiments are similar. The absense of detail in Dean's speech does not indicate that he is not capable of expressing foreign policy ideas at the same level of detail; it just indicates that he did not go into that kind of detail in this speech. At this point demonstrating good values and good judgment count more than specific policy proposals.

That being said, Kerry without doubt has more experience in foreign policy than Dean. But this makes it all the more puzzling that Kerry would vote to allow Bush and the neo-conservatives to invade Iraq. Dean not only made the right decision, he also voiced it loudly back when it wasn't in style. If Kerry, with all of his credentials, had demonstrated the same leadership back then maybe we wouldn't be in Iraq today.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. This Is a Convenient Myth
That Dean is somehow principled because he spoke out when it was unpopular. Which is total BS, because he built up his campaign from total zero to becoming THE voice of the anti-war candidates (nevermind Kucinich, Sharpton, and Moseley-Braun). I don't see it as any great wonder for him to respond to the lines that got the most cheers.

As for Kerry, his vote was absolutely consistent with his stated position since 1997 (which Dean eventually came around to after he had built up a legitimate campaign).

"Saddam Hussein" cannot be permitted to go unobserved and unimpeded toward his horrific objective of amassing a stockpile of weapons of mass destruction." -1997.

"While we should always seek to take significant international actions on a multilateral rather than a unilateral basis whenever that is possible, if in the final analysis we face what we truly believe to be a grave threat to the well-being of our Nation or the entire world and it cannot be removed peacefully, we must have the courage to do what we believe is right and wise." -1997.

This is EXACTLY the position Dean came around to.

As for foreign policy at large, I find your attempt to put a positive spin on Dean's vague ideas admirable. But unfortunately, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It takes more than noble sentiments in the post-9/11 world.
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idlisambar Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. "principle" is not the issue
I admire both Kerry and Dean, and fault neither of them on principle. Kerry (along with many other democrats) made a mistake in "judgment" when he gave Bush a blank check in Iraq. Kerry then made another mistake in "judgment" when he decided to lay low when Bush proceeded to bungle the diplomacy.

Dean on the other hand showed good judgment, in my opinion, to oppose the war from the start and he deserves the accolades that he gets for it.

As for foreign policy in general, Kerry and Dean both have the right idea I believe, but Kerry clearly wins the resume battle; if it were not for Iraq I would give Kerry points here, but Kerry has shown that the benefits of a resume should not be overestimated. Dean on the other hand brings to the table a fact-based approach to solving problems that I like. It is about time someone with a science background occupied the white house.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. The Myth of Kerry "Laying Low" Before The Invasion
Kerry amassed pretty consistent record for someone recovering from prostate surgery. This is just a few articles that appeared around the start of the invasion (March 18). For those that say he was quiet after the war began, just over a week into the war Kerry was calling for "regime change at home."

When Bush gave Saddam a 49 hour ultimatum, Kerry said he was "saddened and angered," but that Saddam had brought it on himself after 10 years of screwing around. Reading the "Iraq War Reader" (an ultimately liberal compilation), the more I come to see how accurate this was.

April 4, 2003 - Democratic Candidate Fires Back at DeLay, Republicans for Attacks over 'regime change' Comments
Washington, D.C.: Associated Press

March 18, 2003 - Kerry Proposes Homeland Security Plan to Make America Stronger and Safer
Washington, D.C.: Statement of Senator Kerry

March 17, 2003 - Senator John Kerry Responds to the President's Speech to the Nation
Washington, D.C.: Statement of Senator Kerry

March 14, 2003 - Kerry Blasts Bush on Iraq Effort
San Francisco, CA: Sacramento Bee

March 14, 2003 - Kerry Asks Bush Administration to Investigate Record High Gas Prices
Washington, D.C.: Kerry Campaign Press Release

March 4, 2003 - Kerry Criticizes U.S.-Russian Nuclear Arms Deal
Washington, D.C.: Associated Press

February 28, 2003 - Back on Trail, Kerry Assails Bush Team
Anaheim, CA: Los Angeles Times

February 23, 2003 - Kerry Proposes 'Progressive Internationalism' As Alternative To 'Blustering' Bush Approach
Washington, D.C.: Cox News Service

January 28, 2003 - Kerry Responds to President Bush's State of the Union Address
Washington, D.C.: Statement of Senator Kerry

January 19, 2003 - Stops in Iowa Focus on Bush's 'Failure'
Marion, IA: Des Moines Register
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Well, Gary Hart knows what knowledge Dean has...
and he specifically warned that Dean cannot handle foreign policy. In fact, as of last January, Dean's foreign policy consisted of calls to Hart that went like this: "Gary, what do I do?"
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LimpingLib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
41. Im still waiting for "champ" to fullfill the promise to prosecute...
... the Vietnam War politicians for war crimes. Guess it wasnt politicaly expidient. The leaders learned that they can get away with anything no matter how deceptive and crooked. It wasnt exactly a precident in American history but it was a precident in the sense that we actualy had a huge anti war movement and probabilly could have SET a counter precident in making it clear to leaders that they better BEWARE if they want to try crap again.

Would have come in handy especially post 9/11 but Kerry decided it was just a youthful hot headed spell (well he will use language meant to pump himself up as a young here outraged at <gasp> a corrupt government taking advantage on innocent youths)and dropped his efforts once he realized that he had alreay done "enough" and decided his bright political future was victory enough.

(disclaimer)Honestly at the grass roots the Iraq War issue has had a lot more protest but with little support from strong organizations and politicians (end of disclaimer) BUT how many serious efforst have you seen to go after leaders /joint chief generals /politicians from either this or especially the 1991 Iraq War ? You have to go to some obscure web page to even find details and even then it will likely be the first time you ever heard of such a thing. Why were we so much stronger in the Vietnam days when the internet didnt exist and other means of organizing were so much weaker ? Probabilly IMO we (by the fact that we attacked a communist nation) had the benefit of Soviet spy agitators actualy being on our side (again just my opinion and I by no means am communist though Ill take support wherever we can get it)rousing up all kind of demonstrations getting the medias attention and the communists were good at that type of thing based on my research. We were lucky to have them coincidentialy on our side . Problem is that one of the soldiers that picked up the banner of protest infront of the media's wide open eyes was John Kerry . Somebody who ended up proving he basicaly only cared for himself . Kerry decided he has "grown above it" or some other crap excusing all the war crimminals. Anyway we now have the internet age and organization on our side . It would have fast put a stop the the military machine extending its gears over Iraq again. Problem is that politicians like John Kerry were our leaders and old "champ" stopped the energy of the worldwide anti war movement cold in its tracks by his deaf ear to our concerns and full forced march to the Bush / Chenny drumbeat.

However I give your post credit Kerry might be "as good as" Dean if not slightly better overall .
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. I'll Address Some of This
Kerry didn't arrive at Congress until 1984. Around which time Reagan was goofing around with Nicaragua as the Vietnam we could win. We all know Kerry's record on that. Kerry has also been a strong champion of Veteran's rights, especially with causes like Agent Orange. He returned to Vietnam with McCain to find out the uncomfortable truth about the POW-MIA situation.

As far as the Vietnam protests being stronger, they were nowhere near as strong in so short a span of time. The anti-war protests took several years to foment.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
54. Clinton didn't get much foreign affairs experience as Governor of Arkansas
Heck, we could go even a step further and say that Jimmy Carter didn't get much while he was governor of Georgia.

Yet both presidents left office as experts in the area of Foreign Affairs. I think we'll be just fine!
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. clinton had much foreign policy experience
he worked for a senator. he was a rhodes scholar and studied in britain, and took a trip to the soviet union. it was something he studied most of his life. as governor he dealt with cuban refugees. he was part of the anti war movement.
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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. I would call this apples and oranges
All these things are fine and dandy, but didn't make him a "Foreign Relations" expert before being elected as president. In fact this was one of the criticisms about Clinton - that he had no experience with dealing with foreign dignataries and issues directly. Based on what you've posted, I have foreign policy experience because I too have been overseas, I've studied it some and I'm anti-war.

Clinton succeeded in foreign policy because he surrounded himself with experts who would give him the training needed. I think any democratic candidate can do the same and be as successful as Clinton and Carter.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Dean Travelled To Israel (On AIPAC's Dime) To Visit Sharon
I guess he does have some foreign policy experience, after all. And it shows.

<>
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. That's Your Argument - "Well We'll Get Around To It Eventually?"
I'm sure the American people will be overwhelmed. Don't worry. It's not like foreign policy is going to be a big issue in 2004.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
60. The Eye of The Tiger
<>

I pity the poor fool who mess with me, John Kerry!

Risin' up -- back on the street,
Did my time, took my chances.
Went the distance now I'm back on my feet,
Just a man and his will to survive.

So many times, it happens too fast,
You trade your passion for glory.
Don't lose your grip on the dreams of the past,
You must fight just to keep them alive.

It's the Eye of the Tiger.
It's the thrill of the fight.
Rising up to the challenge of our rival.
And the last known survivor
Stalks his prey in the night,
And he's watching us all
With the Eye of the Tiger.

-William Blake
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. I Must Break You
<>

Go for it.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Below the belt:
Shameless kicking of own thread!

I'm instructing the judges to deduct one point.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. Actually I Was Trying To Draw You Into One of Your Famous Responses
But sadly, no picture.:-(
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kang Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
64. Kerrey in 2004, not Kerry (confused?)
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 04:58 PM by kang
Despite his well-prepared speeches, Sen. Kerry seems uncomfortable with free-flowing dialogue or open Q&A type sessions. He often finds himself falling back on his Vietnam service as a basis to support any argument he puts forward. I am a Chicago-land native, but I have been here in Boston for the last year and I will tell you that he is not nearly as popular as one would think a Senator running for President would be in their home state. There's that "Al Gore" problem of being perceived as out-of-touch with your average American. Perhaps unfair, but the media will jump on it since it's a easy story to go with.

With all due respect to Sen. John Kerry, I've come to the conclusion that the best person to run against Pres. Bush in 2004 is Bob Kerrey. He has Sen. Kerry's foreign policy gravitas, but speaks in a down-to-earth manner that Americans will more readily digest. Here's a transcript of a forum discussion he recently did at the JFK library during the Iraq War (dated 3/24/03).

http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/forum_kerrey.html

*On the same website, Howard Dean's forum discussion is posted as well (3/26/03).

Right now there's not a single candidate that scares Karl Rove. He seems to have readily made attack for each one (Kerry/MA liberal, Leiberman/What's the difference?, Edwards/inexperienced trial lawyer, Dean/angry small state governor, against Iraq war, can't be commander-in-chief, Gephardt/labor's guy). Not only that, but the media's coverage has been nearly dead regarding the Democratic candidates...we need a candidate that will bring excitement to the race again.

Bob Kerrey's a former governor and two term Senator of Nebraska with time on the Select Intelligence Committee. He sits on the board of the Concord Coalition which focuses on Social Security and Health Care issues. On top of that, he's a former SEAL (which seems to have some public stamp of alpha male-ness for some reason), Medal of Honor recipient, and lost his foot during combat in Vietnam. He currently is the president of New School University and has taken heat there from students for having supported taking down Hussein's regime. Republicans are not the only ones that can acheive the "wave the flag" effect.

As for anybody who thinks the allegations of war crimes would be a problem, the accusations come from one rogue member of his team and two Viet Cong "witnesses." In addition, most Americans will not be interested in the past and the only people who this would be an issue for would not have voted for Kerrey in the first place (they'd probably vote Green since he's moderate). Finally, I'm not so sure conservatives would want to bring attention to the fact that Kerrey was in chaos of war while Pres. Bush was defending the skies of Texas.

On the purely political/symbolic level, it is also noteworthy that his third child was born on 9/10/01 and he was in Manhattan on 9/11 (not flying from one hidden location to another).

Problem is he's shown no interest in running and a good number of his DLC comrades are already in the race (Leiberman, Graham, and Edwards...who he recruited to run for the Senate in the first place).

I look forward to other people's opinions on this!







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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-26-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Wow, That's From Left Field!
Honestly, I'm not going to toe-to-toe with you over Kerrey's war crimes. But I will say that John Kerry stood by him the whole time as a fellow Veteran.

I did notice that you skirted around the foreign policy issue. The interview is interesting and even compelling in parts, but I can't imagine that you are suggesting it as comparable to Kerry's policy address. Am I wrong on this part?

"John Kerry has, I think, delineated a very clear alternative to President Bush."
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