Kerry blames election loss on Sept. 11 attacks

[rawstory]

Kerry blames election loss on Sept. 11 attacks

RAW STORY

Asked by a reporter outside the White House today what cost him the election, Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) gave a terse reply, RAW STORY can reveal.

"9/11," Kerry said.

Cox News Service has filed a story for delivery Friday, detailing Kerry's comments outside the White House where he had been invited to watch President Bush sign a resolution calling for a Rosa Parks statue at the Capitol. Kerry "refused further analysis" about his loss.
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"No assessments," he quipped as he retreated down the White House driveway. "This is not the time and place for it."

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Kerry_blames_election_loss_on_Sept._1201.html

[darkism]

1. Fraud.

That's my terse response.

[Demeter]

69. The Man Is Clueless

He's a fraud, too.

[AspenRose]

134. Diebold

Another terse response....

[zann725]

157. ...with a capital "F".

Or is that Capitol...

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ray of light]

170. Forget bashing Kerry, Clinton, Reid, Murtha, etc...Vote for HILLARY DUFF!!

Geez...some wise a$$ neocon is laughing their A$$ of watching these threads in D.U.

Who will it be next?

Today is Kerry,

Tomorrow is Clinton,

Monday is Murtha,

Tuesday is Reid,

Wednesday is Leiberman

Thursday is Kerry's turn again.

Heck!!!! Who needs this? I say lets vote for Hillary Duff--she's blond like Hillary (and has the same name too), she has no political experience so there's nothing to smear there, she has no military experience either--so no swiftboating can happen to her like happened to McCain, Kerry, Murtha, etc...

She doesn't speak much so nobody can write pissy threads everytime she allegedly opens her mouth to say something. She's just like a barbie doll--just what everyone wants.

AND best of all, She doesn't open herself to attacks from right winged loons or the left winged people either.

She's one of a kind.

I say

VOTE FOR THE BARBIE LOOK ALIKE--HILLARY DUFF!!!

[Cha]

2. It's so fuckin' ironic

that "9/11" should be the perfect reason to get someone in the White HOuse who can protect the Freakin' Americans! :mad: :grr:

[Al-CIAda]

4. Information in regard to 9/11 failure was given to him. He chose not to

use it.

[blm]

11. Like Krugman said - the press blew up Bush into a heroic leader post 9-11

I say it took a category 5 hurricane to blow against the 5 years of spin and reveal the truth about Bush and the media.

[Cha]

17. In that respect we have

to bow down to Mother Nature..I always did like her.

[TomClash]

35. Maybe there is a God

and she works in less mysterious ways than I thought.

[Eikon]

3. The fact that he didn't want to win, would be the obvious answer

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Eikon]

23. Please

What makes you think he wanted to win? The skillful way in which he ran his "campaign"? The way he let the swiftboaters assail him without question? The way he couldn't care less about massive fraud in Ohio? You seem to think he's a real fighter, like Gore. Do tell...

[JanusAscending]

25. Let's see..............what made me think he wanted to win .......?

HMMMN?.............Oh I know!!! HE DID WIN !!!! and believe me, HE CARES ABOUT ALL OF IT !!! Someday soon people who were the nay sayers will eat their words!

[Eikon]

28. So following your logic..

He knows about the fraud, and he knows that he actually won, so he blames the "loss" on 9/11. Sounds like a page from the repub playbook to me.

So how does knowing that you won and not speaking up about it, mean that he wanted to win?

[Journeyman]

31. Touché!. . .

n/t

[JanusAscending]

32. Well, I just guess he is a Gentleman, and knows how to THINK..

before he opens his mouth!! Can't you see the headlines now? " Senator Kerry says Bush rigged the election, and he is really the POTUS!! Now all he has to do is prove it, to keep his credibility in the eyes of the citizens of the United States that elected him!!".... Is this what you prefer that he would do, just to satisfy the likes of people like you , who don't give a crap about him anyway? Get real!!:silly: A wise man stays above the fray, until he has the ammunition to take the enemy down!! Too bad shrub hasn't learned that yet! My President, Kerry, has the same tenacity and wisdom that Prosecuter Fitzgerald has. It's called "Smarts"!!

[YvonneCa]

48. Thank you...I agree COMPLETELY! n/t

[stepnw1f]

103. Great Point

I do think it would have been political suicide without the proof. It will all come out eventually.

[wisteria]

75. 9-11 is a resonable answer, fraud has and may never be able to

be proven.

[zann725]

158. Reason is reasonable...when time and odds are on your side.

Truth upsets the apple cart time and time again...when things need turning around.

Say the "F" word, John. Say it now!

[wisteria]

74. You can't actually believe what you just said? It is so wrong

and makes no sense at all.

[SammyWinstonJack]

105. Obvious to whom?

:shrug:

[Eikon]

193. Anyone with half a brain

You people worry me. It's you fools that would vote for him if he ran again, and have no question about his skull and bones connection, or how he suddenly came out of nowhere in the primaries. Don't get duped again.

[SammyWinstonJack]

195. Fools? I wasn't 'duped' to begin with. Half a brain? Rude much?

[Ernesto]

112. Gimme a break, Paleeeeze..........

Maybe you should run..

[sofa king]

5. Woah! Do I sense a setup?

I know I for one lean heavily toward Bush Administration foreknowledge and even complicity in the September 11 attacks. The evidence is piling up daily, and several lines of inquiry are beginning to point back to that conclusion.

This is reading a lot into a one-date answer, but I wonder if Senator Kerry is beginning to feel the same way....

[One_Life_To_Give]

6. Should have been a blowout

9-11 sure didn't help matters.
But this sounds JFK thinks he and his team did everything "Just Right"
You never made that "connection" with the "Avg" voter John.

More time on the Harley, forget the hunting in new Camo's.

[Straight Shooter]

7. Perfect opportunity for Kerry to have explained what he would have done.

And I'm really sorry he is so hesitant about pointing out that bush and his administration were either asleep at the wheel or drunk at the wheel.

LIHOP, MIHOP. Who knows. I can just envision bush receiving that August PDB and saying, "Oh, so Osama is determined to attack the U.S.? Well, bring it on!"

Yes, I can easily see bush saying that.

[Nite Owl]

8. If it were 9-11 then

NY and NJ surely would have rewarded * with their electoral votes. It was the fear that they were good at not the event itself and Kerry too was afraid to speak out.

[Bucky]

9. Sadly, the real reason he lost isn't 9/11. It's the Iraq war.

Bush wanted a big war for the purpose of getting reelected. That was
the plan from day one. He got his war and he rode it to "victory".
I'm surprised there's any need for discussion about this. 9/11 was
always a figleaf for Iraq. But let's quit calling Bush "stupid," if
only for this: He's obviously not as dumb as all those people who say
"If only I'd known how bad he'd screw up. I wish now I hadn't voted
for him last year."

[Patchuli]

71. Nope, it's Rove that's smart.

* is dumber than a box o' rocks.

[skipos]

10. I dunno. Making his military experience the central

part of his campaign and then letting SBVT tear it to shreds
did a lot of damage.

[Mass]

12. So he had to thrash Rosa Parks's ceremony to please you?

And you use CNS for that? Soon you will use Drudge.

BTW, why is it news? Kerry has been saying that for a while now.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Megahurtz]

14. Is he going to go on pretending he knows nothing

about Diebold???

[Mass]

15. He was at a ceremony for the Rosa Parks memorial - Do you think it was the

place to do that (assuming he wanted to).

[Minstrel Boy]

166. damn right it was

It would have paid much worthier tribute to Rosa Parks.

[blm]

19. Yeah. That's why he has Jon Winer working on it.

Everyone knows Winer can't uncover anything - just how Kerry likes it. Oh...except IranContra and BCCI....other than that, Winer doesn't lift a finger.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

33. Question.

Can you set a timetable for when Kerry closes the jaws on any of his many "traps?"

Just tell me what a reasonable date would be for me to expect Kerry to do his expose. Iow, what date is appropriate to criticize Mr. Kerry without hearing this excuse/fact?

Because I want to know when it's OK for folks skeptical of Kerry to be able to have their say without "BCCI" or "He's got a team working on it" thrown in their faces.

2 months? 6 months? A year? Two years? A decade? Never?

I'll bookmark your response and try my damnedest to hold my tongue until after the expiration date has passed.

[blm]

42. Stop being such a jerk towards me. If you don't understand the

significance of Winer to the issue, then that's your choice.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

44. If asking for the time when such objectives will be met

is being a jerk, than so be it. You've been using this argument for 2+ years.

Kindly, sincerely and with sugar-on-top, what would be a reasonable timeframe for Kerry(and his surrogates) to put up or shut up?


An easy question, easily answerable.

[blm]

45. No. There is no definitive answer. I could only guess that

he and Dean will expose the machines before the next election. You want to deny the significance of Winer talking to Parry about machine fraud, go ahead. I'm sure he's just another nobody to you.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

49. I want to deny nothing.

So do you want to go with October 31, 2006?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. 10-31-06?

Check with Mary Beth.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

79. 11-01-06?

:shrug:

[XemaSab]

141. Good question

All of the Kerry apologizers have beeen saying this since the moment Kerry conceded.

"He's working on it." "He has a plan."

And I'm sure there are still rebel soldiers in Dixie just waiting to catch the Yankees unawares.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

164. Those rebels have joined forces with the remaining

WWII Japanese soldiers that live in island caves. Keep your blackout curtains drawn and only use a light at night if it's absolutely necessary.

[VegasWolf]

36. Curious. Are you really saying that Kerry has hired a full time

investigation effort into Diebold. That would be great if true. You have a link?

[blm]

40. Robert Parry talked to Winer about the Miller dustup.

Winer told Parry that Kerry knows about fraud and then went on to say that there is no evidence to prove it because machines are set up for onetime use, meaning no evidence and that is what makes it difficult for Kerry to come forward on his own. (He isn't exactly getting support from other senate Dems, either.)

Why would Winer know this? Why would he even be talking to Parry about machine fraud at all?

Winer worked with Kerry to uncover IranContra and BCCI - he is not a frivolous man - he specializes in information security and knows how to uncover deep secrets. He usually shared information uncovered back then with........Robert Parry.


I guess you'd have to be a longtime BFEE watcher to appreciate what Winer brings to the issue.

[ray of light]

171. THANKS for the laugh today. It's the first one!

Do you REALLY think if Kerry hired a Private EYE he'd provide a LINK on the internet for the freepers to freep?

OMG!!! Thank you for cheering me up! I've had such a rotten day, but you've given me the best medicine: laughter!!!


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

(absolutely no sarcasm intended!)

[nolabels]

201. The soup does seem to be getting a bit thicker that way doesn't it.

The old quip of not believing anything even if you see it also looks like it's got a new set of legs.

[the other one]

16. No, it was massive election rigging. nt

[madmark]

18. Kerry lost because of his incoherent position on the Iraq War and

he did not make the case that Bush is incompetent which is amazing given all the ammunition that Bush gave him to do so.

[blm]

20. He did at every speech - check the editting room floor of corp. newsmedia

.

[VegasWolf]

37. I think the operative word is incoherent. Even Jon Stewart laughed

at Kerry's mangled attempt to respond to Bush's Iraq War "Plan". Kerry just does not be able to communicate with the common person and I agree with the previous speaker that this is one of the major reasons he lost.

[blm]

43. I watched the whole press conference and understood every word.

But, then, I'm saddled with an IQ.

Stewart bends over backwards to prove he's not partisan, just like most news media do to prove they're not liberal. Kerry is his target of choice just as Gore was his target, and later Dean.

Doesn't mean I buy what he's selling to the RW just so his show stays on air.

[VegasWolf]

53. That's the problem -

many of us here are blessed with an abundantly rich IQ. The problem is in relating to Joe America. Kerry fails. By the way, you do know that Kerry's college grades were very mundane, what does that say about your ability to understand him. Are you implying that Kerry is some genius?

[karynnj]

73. His grades were mediocre in college

but he was the star of the Yale debating team for all four years, was President of the political union in both his Jr and Sr years even though he was a Democrat at a then mostly Republican school, he played four sports at either the varsity or jr varsity level and had a parttime job. In addition, he learned how to fly a plane. In addition, he apparently had a very active social live with friends he has to this day. His worst grades were in his freshman year, his best in his senior year. Obviously Yale didn't have a real problem with his grades as they never asked him to drop anyt activities.

He acknowledged in Tour of Duty that he was a less than dilagent student and he admitted to skipping class to fly. From the excerpts from his journals quoted in the book, he was a very talented writer, very well read, and very perceptive.

He went to law school, passed the bar and became a very good prosecutor - good enough that after a year, he was promoted over the entire office to be the second highest person. Watch any Senate hearing and you will see why he has the reputation of being extremely smart. THe debates alone should have showed a very intelligent man.

[Dances with Cats]

80. Quoting Jon Stewart

Kerrys "message" was "incoherent". I look forward to working for his defeat in 2008 if he is foolish enough to run. A.B.K. in '08 (Anybody but Kerry!)

[blm]

89. You are underinformed on Kerry - his freshman grades dragged his record

down, as he admittedly spent most of his freshman year concentrating on getting his PILOT'S LICENSE.

And then his grades kept getting better.

He must have had alot on the ball in Vietnam, afterwards, when he was prosecuting MAFIA, and when he uncovered IranContra and BCCI.

Do you honestly believe people don't grow into their brains beyond college?

Could YOU have uncovered BCCI without a computer?

[Lost4words]

96. You really have a thing for Kerry dont you blm.

You remind me of bushbots for bush. Anyone who has a different OPINION of Kerry than you do seem to be uninformed, uneducated and/or lacking IQ.

Are you John Kerry? Otherwise you seem to have a little hero worship going on.

Dont worry my OPINION must be the product of a lower IQ than yours.

[blm]

97. No - I believe in truth and justice - it irks me that so many Democrats

are underinformed.

When they throw out something against Kerry that I know to be untrue, why shouldn't it be corrected?

Seems to me that DU is here so Democrats can access facts and information from each other.

There are others who use it to SPREAD disinformation. Disinfo needs to be corrected.

Have you ever stepped up to correct something you know is blatantly false about Kerry? Or do you tolerate false perceptions about him? I step up whenever attacks are made using false perceptions against Kucinich, Clark, Edwards and Dean, too. But they don't get the fullscale constant attacks that Kerry gets.

Who I am is someone who has followed the most serious acts of government corruption and noticed lang ago that only a few lawmakers step up to fight it at great risk to themselves - Kerry is at the top of that list.

You find it intolerable that others find Kerry worthy of spirited defense, and I find it intolerable that people at an activist Dem board would make it their quest to spread inaccurate information against a lawmaker who has effected this nation more postively over the last 35 years than most.

[VegasWolf]

114. Wrong. people are not spreading disinformation simply because

they dislike Kerry. I voted for Kerry and donated money for his campaign. I did not like the way he handled the swift boat vets attack nor the way he handled the post election fraud.

Btw, as far as your incredibly STUPID statement accusing others of low IQ and not finding information without a computer. I designed computers in Electrical Engineering. Unlike Kerry, I NEVER made less than an A in undergraduate or graduate school. You are really something.

[blm]

118. I didn't like how the Dem party handled the swiftboat attacks. Every time

in the past when it was done, it was Kerry leading other Dems and vets who stood up to defend the person under attack, McCain, Daschle, Cleland, Murtha. When it was Kerry under attack, the party stuttered.


Try separating overall assessments and specific points. I didn't attack your intellect - you attacked Kerry's.

My point was that Kerry pursued incredibly complex corruption issues and did so without benefit of computers and the internet to gather the information. That took some level of significant intellect and intuitiveness.

You imply Kerry's intellect is of no consequence based on college grades.


We'll see how history records his actual efforts.

[VegasWolf]

125. As I mentioned,

I both voted for and donated to Kerry's campaign. I,
and many others, were highly disillusioned with Kerry's overall performance. If he worked for me, I would fire him.

If Kerry would take a strong Murtha-like stand against the war, some people may start liking him again.

[blm]

127. Kerry submitted a withdrawal plan last October. Tom Hayden agrees with

Kerry's approach and so does Gary Hart. Kerry's plan is DOABLE and emphasizes there is no military success possible, only political success. No military, no gun will change what is happening in Iraq - Kerry stressed that.

Kerry resubmitted his withdrawal plan as a senate bill on Nov 10. A few days later, Murtha made his announcement and Kerry was in position to defend him when the attacks came from the WH because Kerry had already been scheduled on the news shows to discuss HIS withdrawal plan.


11/10/2005
Kerry Introduces Strategy for Success in Iraq Act in United States Senate

Plan Would Bring Home 20,000 Troops After Iraq Elections, Demands Benchmarks for Success

Washington, D.C. -- This afternoon, Senator John Kerry introduced in the Senate his plan to succeed in Iraq and bring the vast majority of our combat troops home in a reasonable timeframe tied to specific, responsible benchmarks to transfer responsibility to Iraqis – beginning with the draw down of 20,000 U.S. troops after successful Iraqi elections in December. These additional troops are in Iraq only for the purpose of providing security for the upcoming elections. If they remain in Iraq after that benchmark is achieved, it only exacerbates the sense of American occupation.

"We are entering a make-or-break six month period in Iraq. We need to be taking action now if we are ever going to bring our troops home within a reasonable timeframe from an Iraq that's not permanently torn by irrepressible conflict," Kerry said. “We cannot pull out precipitously or merely promise to stay ‘as long as it takes. There is a way forward that gives us the best chance both to salvage a difficult situation in Iraq, and to save American and Iraqi lives.”

Kerry's legislation, the Strategy for Success in Iraq Act, lays out a comprehensive new strategy to complete the mission in Iraq and bring our troops home. Its goal is to undermine the insurgency by simultaneously pursing both a political settlement and the draw down of American forces linked to specific, responsible benchmarks. If followed, the process will be completed in 12-15 months.

Kerry’s plan calls for:

• The U.S. to begin a phased draw down of American troops as a series of military and political benchmarks is met, starting with a reduction of 20,000 troops over the holidays as the first benchmark –the successful completion of the December elections – is met.

• The U.S. to immediately make clear that we do not want permanent military bases in Iraq, or a large combat force on Iraqi soil indefinitely.

• The Administration to immediately give Congress and the American people a detailed plan for the transfer of military and police responsibilities on a sector by sector basis to Iraqis so the majority of our combat forces can be withdrawn -- ideally by the end of next year.

• The Bush administration to prod the new Iraqi government to ask for a multinational force to help protect Iraq’s borders until a capable national army is formed. Such a force, if sanctioned by the United Nations, could attract participation by Iraq's neighbors and countries like India and would be a critical step in stemming the tide of insurgents and money into Iraq, especially from Syria.

• The Pentagon to alter the deployment of American troops, keeping Special Operations forces pursuing specific intelligence leads and putting the vast majority of U.S. troops in rear guard, garrisoned status for security backup. We do not need to send young Americans on search and destroy missions that invite alienation and deepen the risks they face.

• The President to put the training of Iraqi security forces on a six month wartime footing and ensure that the Iraqi government has the budget to deploy them.

• The Bush administration to accept long standing offers by Egypt, Jordan, France and Germany to do more training.

• The administration to immediately call a conference of Iraq’s neighbors, Britain, Turkey and other key NATO allies, and Russia to implement a strategy to bring the parties in Iraq to a sustainable political compromise that includes mutual security guarantees among Iraqis.

• Iraq’s Sunni neighbors to set up a reconstruction fund specifically for the majority Sunni areas to show them the benefits of participating in the political process. • The President to appoint a special envoy to bolster America’s diplomatic efforts.

• The U.S. to commit to a new regional security structure that includes improved security assistance programs and joint exercises.

• The U.S. to jumpstart our lagging reconstruction efforts by providing the necessary civilian personnel to do the job, standing up civil-military reconstruction teams throughout the country, streamlining the disbursement of funds to the provinces, expanding job creation programs for Iraqis, and strengthening the capacity of government ministries.

“We must send this critical signal to the Iraqi people - that we do not desire permanent occupation - and that Iraqis themselves must fight for Iraq. History shows that guns alone do not end an insurgency,” Kerry added.

Senior American commanders and officials have said the large U.S. military presence in Iraq feeds the insurgency. General George Casey, the top American military commander in Iraq, recently told Congress that our large military presence “feeds the notion of occupation” and “extends the amount of time that it will take for Iraqi security forces to become self-reliant.” Richard Nixon’s Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird, breaking a thirty year silence, recently wrote, ''Our presence is what feeds the insurgency, and our gradual withdrawal would feed the confidence and the ability of average Iraqis to stand up to the insurgency."

# # #

[VegasWolf]

132. My problem with this is -

* 20,000 troops is nothing. Many of us want this new Vietnam over completely. Stop the killing of Americans now. This war is NOT winnable as Murtha says. Only more innocents will die.

* No permanent bases in Iraq to guard the oil pipeline.

* Demand a congressional hearing into the intelligence manipulation that got us into this fake war. Demand an impeachment inquiry into the use of White Phosphorous on civilians.

* There are NO milestones for SUCCESS as that is IMPOSSIBLE. Leave now.

Just my thoughts.

[blm]

133. Kerry has stressed no permanent bases for 3 years now. The first 20,000 is

as an immediate significant gesture on Dec.15 with other significant drawdowns at each political benchmark, like accepting training help from all the other countries who have offered, especially Muslim countries. Kerry discovered last January that many have offered and Bush has turned them all down. And turning over control to the Iraqis province by province.

Kerry sent a Letter of Inquiry right after the DSM was revealed in May and nine other senators signed onto it. It requested that Phase 2 investigation on intel be completed and the DSM should be part of the investigation. Harry Reid used Phase 2 as the reason to shut down the senate a couple months ago - I wish he and more senators had signed on to the Senate Letter of Inquiry at the time, because DSM should have stayed in the news.



Kerry and Murtha both say the war is not winnable militarily. They have both said it is only political successes that can be achieved at this point.

I blame the corporate media for more people not being aware of the common ground Dems share on Iraq withdrawal. Media too often describes Murtha's plan as cut and run and not the provisional language he uses (PRACTICABLE) because it benefits the WH argument to spin it that way against the Dems.

[ray of light]

172. You admire Murtha it seems, but Murtha is not even bringing 20k home

He's "relocating" them to bases in ARAB nations. The same Arab nations who are sending suicide bombers INTO IRAQ where these same soldiers can be redeployed in Iraq at the slightest change in wind.

AND also, Kerry's plan has no permanent bases in Iraq.

Kerry and others HAVE demanded investigations into the manipulation of facts.

IF there are no milestones for success, then why does Murtha want to keep them in that region where their presence will create even more turmoil in Arab nations.

Frankly, the best plan is for ALL people to recognise that the war must end. Both Murtha's and Kerry's plan does this. Murtha's plan does not bring them home that much quicker than Kerry's but will infact leave them in danger LONGER than Kerry's.

Just my thoughts...

[Zhade]

178. You are correct, they are significantly different plans.

But then, I've seen false comparisons like this before - between, say, two very different versions of the IWR wrongly described as 'practically identical'.

Blurring the edges, as it were, of the differences to make Kerry look better.

I wish I knew whatever happened to the 1971 Kerry. He would have been for IMMEDIATE pullout and hefty financial reparations for the Iraqi people, and rightfully so.

But, to be fair, at least Kerry doesn't profit off the war like Feinstein!

[VegasWolf]

180. Sorry, I personally still have a bad taste left with Kerry. I won't be

voting for him.

[ray of light]

181. self-deleted

[VegasWolf]

182. Self delete. nt

[ray of light]

183. .self deleted

[VegasWolf]

184. Okay! We're all on the same side here! Just different opinions!

:toast:

[ray of light]

185. Yes, we're all on the same side.

And that is my fear...that we all forget that!

Truce and cheers!

:toast:

Tell you what VegasWolf, let's promise to fight the Republicans from now on instead of each other. And lets start with Duke Cunningham's seat.

We MUST take back the Congress to hold each and everyone of these Republicans and their corporations accountable.

My greatest hope is that the media will be deconsolidated because I'm sick and tired of watching good caring Democrats getting swiftied by the media while they let the corrupt Republicans off the hook.

[confludemocrat]

196. Bizarre "logic" there

There's an illegal war in Iraq, which we need to end by leaving. But given the turmoil you speak of, you want them left there under the Kerry terms of "success" (undefined by him), because taking them out of the real cause of the turmoil--Iraq, will instead be the cause of turmoil? Do you know that there is turmoil in Iraq? A simultaneous civil war and insurgency and a breeding and training ground for terrorists.

Murtha is courageous enough to acknowledge that the "mission" will not lead to success. It is worthless to talk about a withdrawal plan as nebulous as Kerry's is without making it clear that there is no success to be had now (how can a war based on lies about the threat, and an illegal invasion ever be successful?) because it contains an "out" that extends our presence there until success is met. and thus given the illegality and illogic of the war, we must have as Kerry calls it a "plan for success".

[YvonneCa]

47. Go to C-SPAN's website and watch Kerry's Georgetown speech...

...Educate yourself. AFTER that, watch the press conference again. Kerry was GREAT!

P.S. To get the Georgetown speech, use the search option on the C-Span website and enter Kerry and Iraq. He set out HIS plan on October 26, 2005...and it's TOTALLY consistent with what he has been saying all along. No one will cover him !?!? That's a crime.:patriot:

[VegasWolf]

54. Thanks, but no thanks,

I've heard plenty of Kerry's speeches. This time around I'm voting for someone who will fight back against the swift boat liars.

[YvonneCa]

67. Because many citizens...

..were not open minded enough to listen to discussions on both sides of important issues (which might have helped them make a good voting decision), we now have this * administration. I'm not talking about 'name-calling', which is what SBVT was about. I am always of the hope that we Democrats ARE open minded. We take time to learn about and care about issues. Vote for whomever you choose in 2008...I will. But it never hurts to know all the facts. Senator Kerry IS fighting back on issues...not by calling people names.

[XemaSab]

142. The big republican meme where I live was "flip-flopper"

and when I was asked about Kerry's vote for the war and subsequent ambivalence about the war that's something that the common dems shouldn't have to come up with answers on the fly about.

The party was silent, and Kerry himself was silent.

And frankly, it's hard to defend someone against charges of being a flip-flopper when many democrats, including many on this board, believe it themselves.

[blm]

90. You mean the way Kerry did with Murtha? That's what a PARTY is for.

Bush never defended one charge against him. The RNC and RW media did it all for him.

Kerry had a pisspoor DNC who was only schooled in how to defend Clinton for 8 years, and knew little about any other Democrat or even the issues.

[VegasWolf]

116. Read my previous post #114 re your senseless attacks. nt

[blm]

119. Saying the Dem party acted weakly is a senseless attack?

.

[President Kerry]

56. what a bullshit repug talking point. Unbelievable.

when i hear Kerry's position on Iraq was incoherent, i want to blow up. He was MOST coherent on Iraq. His mistake was trusting Bush. He knows more about war than Shrub ever will. The fact that the voter is so easily fooled is scary.

[XemaSab]

145. Have any of us EVER trusted Bush?

That was his biggest mistake, and I don't want a president who's a SUCKER like that.

After all the evil things Bush did before 9-11, and between 9-11 and the run-up to the war, KERRY STILL TRUSTED HIM.

[madmark]

151. Its not a talking point; its my own assessment and I was a

sympathetic audience to kerry. The closest I am able to understand Kerry's position is, "I voted for war authority to give the president leverage to get disarmament without going to war and alternatively if we went to war that the president would conduct it competently." That said, I am not exactly sure if this was Kerry's position or not, and I certainly do not think its clear to the casual observer. And if it is his position, it shows a fundamental misreading of this presidents intentions and competence, and a misjudgment as to what the effects of removing the saddam regime by american military force would be. Anyone with a brain knew the President was hell bent to attack Saddam's regime after his 2002 state of union address and coupled with the 2002 run up to war sales job, if you had any judgment, you knew Bush was going to attack no matter what. Anybody who critically observed Bush Admin's non stop failures from dropping the ball on 9/11 to the fiscal destruction of budget knew he was an incompetent light weight who would fuck up anything he toughed. And it well known to anyone who wanted to critically think about the issue that toppling the Iraq regime would result in chaos and the exact kind of instability that is fertile ground for Al Quada. And despite all this Kerry voted for the POS war and his reasons for doing are still at the end of the day incoherent. Unable to effectivel contrast himself from Bush on the War, he lost.

[Lorien]

173. It's a good assessment, and I agree

I worked long hours for his campaign, as did many here-but anyone who spent much time in the field knows that the majority that voted for him did so because they were voting against Bush, not for Kerry. Kerry should have CLOBBERED Bush at the polls, and you're right, if he only would have used the ample ammo he had against him and been clearer about his Iraq position, he probably would have. I'm certain that voter fraud occurred, but even fraud shouldn't have stopped him. He should have been ahead by double digits.

[SkiGuy]

22. 9/11-maybe he said that instead of"my wife"

SHE is a big reason you lost too, Kerry

[JanusAscending]

24. How dare you ?!!!

eom!!!

[JetCityLiberal]

26. Welcome to DU

Would you elaborate on what you mean by this?

I felt and feel that Teresa Kerry and Elizabeth Edwards were stellar in the campaign. Several times I found myself wishing that either of them were the Nominees not their husbands.

My wife has no problem with my having major crushes on both of them. She feels the same way I feel about these sharp, incredible women. They were and are rock solid in their Democratic values in my humble opinion. The media attacks any strong Democrat be they male, female. I am not surprised Teresa was attacked at all. I loved her shove it response to the despicable Sciafe rag 'reporter'.

[globalvillage]

29. This is a good THK quote

Kerry, D-Mass., poses in Washington in 2001 with second wife Teresa Heinz, who he married in 1995. Widow of Pennsylvania GOP Sen. John Heinz, and principal heir to the family's prepared foods fortune, the new couple poked fun at her riches during Kerry's re-election campaign, when he asked her how she liked Massachusetts. "I love Massachusetts," she deadpanned. "How much is it?"

[JetCityLiberal]

30. That's a keeper

Thanks globalvillage.

[globalvillage]

27. Welcome to DU!

That is about the most contemptuous thing I've read on this forum. And that's saying a lot.

Rules, GV. There are rules here.
:grr:

[lynne]

78. What rule was broken? The poster said he felt that Kerry's -

- wife was part of the reason Kerry lost. He did not slander her, did not call names, made no vicious statements. Since when can you not express an opinion here?

I agree. Teresa Heinz was a problem for those critical centrist and middle-of-the-road undecided voters as she's a person you either love or hate and there's no middle ground. She lost him as many votes as she gained, if not more, as she influenced the undecided voters more than those voters who were already committed to Kerry.

Frankly, IMO she's a political liability.

[karynnj]

82. Teresa was smeared by the RW as thouroughly as he was

She is a brilliant person who the Republicans thought well eenough of to want her to run for her husband's Senate seat. They absolutely distorted everything about her and made very nasty insinuations about their marriage. She WAS considered to be a very major asset in both Iowa and in NH.

[godai]

102. Apparently her approval rating was 30%

Lest we forget...

"The issue is "fair game" because of how Teresa Heinz Kerry is behaving. Already wildly unpopular - her approval rating is an anemic 30% - she did the political equivalent of mooning her neighbors last week by insulting First Lady Laura Bush. Said Heinz Kerry in an interview: "I don't know that she's ever had a real job - I mean, since she's been grown up." "

This makes me recall a number of things she said that just made me cringe, worrying about votes going down the toilet. Didn't she leave the campaign for a while because of concerns? Seems like she really didn't want to be First Lady and may actually be happier the way things turned out.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/245408p-210237c.html

[wisteria]

76. Teresa seems like a very nice and warm person, the media

treated her very badly. I know some of the voting public are ignorant, but I can't fathom voting for Bush because you didn't care for Kerry's wife.

[Decline Of Day]

191. hrmmm...

Unfortunately I think more than just "some" of the voting public are (or at least, hopefully, "were") ignorant.

[Bridget Burke]

92. Only credulous fools believed the Right Wing Talking Points....

About Kerry's wife. Of course, there's no shortage of credulous fools.

[SkiGuy]

138. and I was a fool until recently

Yes, I was one of the MANY Americans fooled by Bush's fear tactics which were enhanced by the media. It took Katrina to wake me up and see what was actually going on. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with what I said about Kerry's wife. I'm sure NOW that they are a loving, caring couple, but I was fooled.

[oregonindy]

34. John kerry is clueless or crazy as a fox....dont know which

[Harper_is_Bush]

38. I think he's saying the usage of 9/11 by the Bush admin...

not the attacks themselves.

They've read into it incorrectly.

[Andromeda]

39. After 9/11 Bush used fear to convince people ....

he was the only one who could protect them. It's amazing how naive and trusting some people were to ever believe Bush could do that.

People are afraid of change and because the nation was so vulnerable, the Bush administration used that to their advantage.

The Democrats have a great opportunity in 2008 to run a winning candidate, providing they've learned from their mistakes.

This is why we must stand behind the Democratic candidate and speak with one voice EVEN If we're not in total agreement with them 100% of the time.

Kerry will probably run again and I think he's learned some lessons from his last campaign. He'll be better prepared next time and hopefully he'll bring in some new advisors. :)

[YvonneCa]

50. I agree. This is what tells me...

...that Kerry will win in 2008, if he runs again(from another post):

C-SPAN's website and Kerry's Georgetown speech.

To get the Georgetown speech, use the search option on the C-Span website and enter Kerry and Iraq. He set out HIS plan on October 26, 2005...and it's TOTALLY consistent with what he has been saying all along. No one will cover him !?!? That's a crime. If you haven't seen it, you may enjoy watching.


:patriot:

[Bridget Burke]

93. Bush's popularity soared after 9/11.

Not for anything he had done. (Sat in a classroom while the Towers burned? Fled to Omaha like a confused coward? Spoke to the nation--finally--with total lack of feeling? Led a pep rally on a smoking funeral pyre?) But because a shocked nation needed SOMEONE to lead them.

Before 9/11, his numbers were in the pits. And the Consortium's report on Who Won Florida was due on 9/11. Its release was postponed & the results were de-emphasized. Who wants to say bad things about a Popular Wartime President? Our Fearless Leader in the War on Terror?

9/11 was a bonanza for the Bush Presidency.

[madmark]

153. It killed me that Kerry let Bush use 9/11 as a strength when It

should have been Bush' worst weakness. 9/11 is a massive intelligence failure fuck up. Bush was asleep as wheel being the President of Vacation and ignored the Clinton Admin pass off admonitions regarding OBL. Rice stated that no one could imagine terrorists flying airplanes into buildings when there was intelligence memo's showing just such plans. And the Phoenix memo; and the FBI not letting the Minnesotal branch get a suphoena to search Moussai's computer, and it goes on and on....massive catastrophic incompetence. And Kerry gave Bush a pass and let him use 9/11 instead of hanging him with it.

[dennis4868]

41. 911 should have been.....

the reason he won...but he was a horrible candidate. He was scared to attack Bush for ignoring pre-911 warnings and how Bush ran the country after 911. He simply was not tough enough and never had the killer instinct!

[President Kerry]

57. might you also add that the media was against him?

You just can't win without the media. And him ripping Bush on pre-911 intelligence would have been spun out of control and derailed any chances.

[Moloch]

46. Oh suck it up, Kerry.

The reason he lost is because of John Kerry.

[VegasWolf]

55. Careful!! Kerry supporters are running around calling everyone who

disagrees with their viewpoint an illiterate low IQ moron!

:toast:

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberalpragmatist]

51. It was

Time and time again, talking to Bush voters, particularly swing voters and apolitical types who voted Bush was "war on terror" and "9/11." I know one girl who paid attention to the campaign and said she agreed with Kerry on all the issues but voted Bush because "he could protect her"!

Kerry made plenty of mistakes in the campaign. His non-response to the SBVT was a big mistake, as was his trying to ignore Iraq until September. After September, when he forcefully stated he would not have gone to war, he was better and drew even in the polls. But it would have been better if he'd said that earlier and if he had NOT said yes to the "knowing-what-you-know-now" question (even if he misheard the question, it was obviously still a mistake).

But it's important to remember that he did many things right - if anything he dominated the race from September through November and kept Bush on the defensive. He had the momentum in the polls after trailing through much of the summer. He beat Bush at the 3 debates.

In the end, Bush's supposed strength with terrorism was a BIG part of his victory. You cannot underestimate the residual goodwill over 9-11, even if a lot of that was misguided.

[rodeodance]

52. i recall Kerry saying that it was the bin ladin tape the weekend before th

e electin that lead to his defeat.

[underpants]

98. Same thing-W campaign called it a "little gift"

or some sort of "gift". Clinton said the same thing right after the election. The tape that appeared didn't help at all. The fear was back and on tape.

[JohnstownDEM]

109. Bin laden was smart

He knew that if he could influence the election in favor of George Bush, he'd remain unhunted. Kerry might have actually ordered an active search for Osama

[Canuck55]

58. worst.excuse.ever.

You had 3 years to counter their all purpose arguement John. Do your party/country/planet a favour and give up on any '08 aspirations.

[enigma000]

59. Dude!

If you couldn't get a grip on 9-11 after three years, maybe it was better you lost.

WTF: It's like Dewey saying: if it weren't for that damn WWII, my policies would have made me president.

[bpilgrim]

60. dude, thats the neoCONs line!

fyi

peace

[Vinca]

61. Diebold is the reason he lost.

He made mistakes, to be sure, and Shrub was puffed with 9/11 machismo, but in the end it was the machines. The exit polls weren't wrong.

[VegasWolf]

62. And where are our leaders demanding vote accountability? I am

ready to vote in a whole new batch, the old ones are fat and lazy and living the good life.

[mimitabby]

107. yes. finally

that's right. I am not real happy with John Kerry today either because of his response to his "loss" (and it was OUR loss, for sure)
but the fact is, if exit polls can be used in every other country as incontrovertable evidence, they ought to work here too.

did YOUR vote count? did MINE? I wonder.

[Dances with Cats]

63. He is full of shit

he lost because he would'nt rebut the "Swift Boaters". They beat him down like a bitch, THEN he capitulated in Ohio on Elcetion night. I'm sick of getting his e-mail, too. Anybody know how to make him STOP?!?

[WhiteTara]

65. what a stupid f*ck!

John Kerry lost because he worked his ass off to do just that. He had it and gave it away. He makes me sick. :puke:

[flaminbats]

86. Kerry ran a great campaign, he did better than I expected

when Kerry was nominated I feared he would be slaughtered like Dukakis and Mondale. Instead he almost beat Bush, losing the popular vote by less than 3%. If Gore had run such a campaign in 2000, he would be President today!

Kerry was able to hold on to most of the Gore votes in 2004, despite the fact he didn't have the name recognition and fundraising advantages Gore did. And unlike Bush, Kerry actually had to fight for the nomination!

If the nomination had been Kerry's for the asking, Bush wouldn't of had a chance. 9/11 hurt Bush politically far more than it helped.

[XemaSab]

149. You're right

It's Howard Dean's fault.

Were it not for Howard Dean, Kerry would be sitting in the White House today.

/sarcasm

[flaminbats]

165. but I thought it was Ralph Nader's and Diebold's fault!!

:cry:

[Trevelyan]

88. Kerry is a Skull and Bones Bilderberger as are the Bushes, Clinton, and

Sen. Dodd. A New Zealand newspaper quoted the LA Times that Kerry was talking to Dennis Miller at one of Arnold's parties a month after he disappeared after the "election", leaving his supporters baffled and much poorer.

According to the Village Voice Feb. 2004, Kerry's staffers said he shredded eyewitness information on over 1,000 Vietnam POWs and when a lawyer on his staff objected, Kerry said no one was being hurt and the staffer said the families of the POWs were being hurt.

Read about Kiss The Boys Good-bye, by a journalist who quit a name newspaper when they refused to print anything about the fraud of the drug war and about Bush Senior's use of the funds to find POWs for drug trafficking and Ross Perot's comments when he tried to find out about the POWs and was threatened by Bush, Sr.

Some of this information is online in the long article Skull and Bones: Everything You Ever Wanted to Know but Were Afraid to Ask on several sites and goes into great detail on the BFEE - Bush Family Evil Empire. Skull and Bones: The Secret Ivy League Corridors of Power by a former Yalie is also enlightening.

For the past two decades our "Presidents" AND THEIR CHALLENGERS were not only Yalies, not only Skull and Bones but also members of Bilderberg with the exception of Al Gore who is said to be a Free Mason. What are the odds of that?

Kerry was taken off the chairmanship of Iran-Contra because he was covering up more evidence than revealing it as a favor to his SB bloodbrother GHWBush. Kerry was not married to Theresa then and was having financial problems.

http://presidentkerrydeceptions.blogspot.com/

1995 Dr. Garth Nicolson, uncovers evidence that the biological agents used during the Gulf War had been manufactured in Houston, TX and Boca Raton, Fl and tested on prisoners in the Texas Department of Corrections.
1996 Department of Defense admits that Desert Storm soldiers were exposed to chemical agents.
1997 Eighty-eight members of Congress sign a letter demanding an investigation into bioweapons use & Gulf War Syndrome.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/experimentation.html#

There exists a shadowy Government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself."-- Senator Daniel K. Inouye, during the Iran Contra Hearings and former chair,U.S. Senate MKULTRA-era hearings in 1977

[WhiteTara]

111. Yes, I believe that Kerry threw the election

for his SB bro monkey boy.

[blm]

120. Yeah - the debates proved that Kerry threw them to Bush. All 3 of them.

It was SO Obvious to anyone watching.

[WhiteTara]

121. No No that's not what I mean...although

a fifth grader could have beat monkey boy in the debates. No, I mean at the end, when he should have gotten out his ak47 and taken the beach in Ohio, he took his toys, went home quietly and then came out and said, oh, I still want to be president, do overs in 2008. No, he lost esteem in my book.

[LittleClarkie]

66. Lousy timing. It was about Rosa Parks, not the election

and it's nothing new. He's said something like that before. 9/11, the war, the bin Laden tape, all related really.

Doesn't sound like he was in the mood for a rehash of a question he's answered before.

[baltlib]

68. another thing that did not help

in maryland ( and may be else where ) a lot of anti kerry ads where run by groups that side with hillary. heck it will be easier for her to win in '08 sense kerry wont be in office

[Bridget Burke]

94. Sounds interesting.

Got any proof?

[Andromeda]

205. Is that a fact!

Got any proof?

[rucky]

72. Oh for shit sake, Kerry.

just stop talking to the media. you are all over the place.

[wisteria]

I watched the press conference and I didn't hear Kerry say this at all!

And if he did, it actually is the most logical answer he could have given. The focus was suppose to be Rosa Parks.

[wisteria]

77. I watched the press conference and I didn't hear Kerry say this at all!

And if he did, it actually is the most logical answer he could have given. The focus was suppose to be Rosa Parks.

[brentspeak]

85. This is RawHeadline we're talking about

No more credible than Matt Drudge's site. A waste of bandwidth. DU should not allow RawStory "stories" to be posted in LBN.

[confludemocrat]

81. God what a headline. Is Raw Story sending JFK a message maybe like,

"Senator, you had your chance in the great pageant of American Democracy, now back off move aside and let someone else lead--you're startin' to lose it!"

[secretmouse]

83. Alas, Poor John

Has Missing Personality Disorder..the guy wasn't likable...I got really beat up by my buds when I was lukewarm about Kerry...and there's no satisfaction in saying "I told you so", when that Moron finally got elected!
Both Kerry and Bush are scions of Eastern Aristocracy..Bush won because he was able to con a lot of (millions?) of Americans with his "Shucks, I'm just a good ol' boy from Texas" routine. Kerry came across as the "aristocrat" that he is.

[Bridget Burke]

95. Kerry "not likable"?

I've never cared for Bush ever since he ran for Governer down here. He seemed a half-bright overaged frat boy. I've known quite a few Good Ol' Boys & he his NOT one! And his mental powers have gone downhill from there. Kerry seemed like a smart guy who took his job seriously; apparently, that's what he really is.

People apparently say they'd like to have a beer with Bush. I'd never encourage someone with his substance abuse history to go off the wagon. Besides, he'd probably be a mean drunk. Kerry would probably be quite amusing after a drink or two.

[secretmouse]

169. Of Course!

Bush isn't a "Good ol' boy", but he was able to fool people that he was. I have nothing against Kerry personally, I just wanted to retake the White House in 2004 and up against Bush's contrived persona and phony Christianity, Kerry wasn't the right candidate, plain and simple.

I have disliked Bush from the moment I set eyes on him; to be perfectly frank, I was gobsmacked when he was chosen as the Repuglican candidate..I considered him sneaky and full of hubris. The worst thing that has happened to the American people, ever!

[flaminbats]

179. Why did Gore win more votes than Bush in 2000?

I'm sorry, but Bush never came across as a "Good ole' boy". A better description for Dubya would be the Sheriff in "the Dukes of Hazzard", Cheney reminds me of Boss Hog. And don't forget Scooter as the Republican Congress...:applause:



The Neocons supported him because they think all wars can be won without paying taxes or losing lives. Democrats voted against Bush because we know everything has a price. ;)

[secretmouse]

189. Hate to bring it up..

..because it makes me quite ill to remember..Gore did win, but he didn't have the Supreme Court in his pocket

And I would respectfully argue that Neocons don't give a shit about losing lives...as long as it isn't their's!

Thanks for the laugh..Bush as the Sheriff!

[second edition]

99. So being a knowledgeable, intelligent ,well spoken leader

isn't what we should want in a President? Your upset because your "buds" were ignorant en ought to go with a "real" loser? How mature is that. So, your animosity comes down to a few "buds" knocking you because you voted for Kerry. How very sad.

[secretmouse]

168. Hey..chill!

If I offended you about Kerry, I do apologize; my field of work includes teaching (sales) people how to get their message across. I will bet the farm that Karl Rove hadBush drilled in Kinesics before he ever ran for Governor...and see, he gor to fool the people some of the time..long enough to get himself appointed, then elected.

I have nothing personally against John Kerry and have nothing but admiration for his War Record, his work against the war when he came back from the'Nam, or his political success since.I agree that he is highly intelligent, beautifully spoken and knowledgeable..the problem is, he isn't able to convey any of those things. His body language is off, and he comes across as uncomfortable and wooden.

Personally, I wanted to unseat the Bush cabal in 2004; in order to do that, we had to look at Bush's strengths and find a candidate who was BETTER . I have heard so many people say that Bush is "One of us"..which of course, he isn't..but he comes across that way!

So, it's down to, do you want to win or would you prefer to hang out with an elegant member of the intelligentisa

[brentspeak]

84. RawHeadline again --- and DU gullibility

Shouldn't we wait for the entire article before we even begin to make a judgement on this issue? Some DUers glimpse a brief headline, grab a few soundbites, and away they go, jumping to conclusions.

[second edition]

100. No truer words have ever been written. n/t

[eridani]

87. So, why didn't he blame the Repubs for 9-11?

Happened on their watch, no? He could have at least said that he'd have cancelled his vacation if he'd gotten a memo entitled "Bin Laden Determined to Attack in the US.

[BiggJawn]

91. Oh, that's Bee-Ess.

The CORRECT answer is "Terry McAuliffe and Donna Brazille".

(See? you CAN get the point across in LESS that 600 words.)

[underpants]

101. He's right-that was what he was always running against & the tape was no

help.

9/11 9/11 9/11 people on this very board said the same thing during the campaign.

THEY, W&co. LLC, used 9/11 to start a war and occupation for crying out loud.

Clinton said that the tape that was released on Friday before election day was a big factor and the White House (oh excuse me the Bush campaign) called it a "special gift" or a "little gift" themselves.

Rove et al were just trying to throw little shots here and there to distract and then the first thing you hear out of W's mouth in his news blip was "9/11" beware you are not safe and only *I* can keep you safe and so forth.

--At this point I have to rant and say-- Yes W still gets CREDIT for 9/11 and the fact that people were unsafe did not connect with him it is/was like an obusive relationship----

Kerry is right on about this. That is why he had to highlight his military record which in history's long view worked.

[plasticsundance]

104. You want to talk about voting fraud ...

Do you think it was some miracle that Kerry took Iowa from Dean? Seriously. Wake up! You don't want to know how deep the rabbit hole goes. Kerry knows that US hegemony is in jeopardy, and like all people in power he must do and say anything to maintain that power structure.

When was the last time Kerry defended a statement made by Dean? Think about it. Shit ... he didn't even defend Murtha to the best of my knowledge. Kerry doesn't like the approach of Bush and the neocons, but both want the same thing.

Dean was shut out by his own party because he brought forth the voice of the common person, and we were made to support a man (i.e. Kerry) as a candidate that did not have really have our interests at heart.

Dean sought the support of the rank and file, and therefore was a threat seen by both parties.

Kerry, instead of sending me your nonsense emails, take time to reread your father's book and prove you comprehend it.

Book Description
The Star-Spangled Mirror captures the dilemma of America's continuing reliance on an enduring fallacy of foreign policy-the assumption that other people ought to share our view of world order. Dr. Richard Kerry argues that from the time of Woodrow Wilson's aim to organize the world order in accordance with assumptions of democratic universalism, this vision of the world has remained central to U.S. foreign policy. This book will be considered an important addition to the history of American foreign policy and as required reading for current and future policy makers.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0847676498/qid=1133530802/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-4044861-3546368?s=books&v=glance&n=283155">The Star-Spangled Mirror

[redqueen]

113. Huh?

Are you alleging that there was fraud in the Iowa primary?

Please clarify.

[plasticsundance]

117. Don't know ...

It's just that I find it strange that a candidate comes back against another candidate with such an extreme lead. It doesn't happen often. Does somebody have a comparison? I'd be interested.

I've become very cynical these days.

[ray of light]

176. OMG...That's hysterically

FUNNY!!!

Take a look at Dean and Kerry
&.src=ph



...Sure looks like your theory sucks!
(edited link)

[JVS]

106. IWR, 9/11 was 3 years before the election! Without 9/11 Kerry's...

Walter Sobchack candidacy never would have gotten out of the primaries. The Iraq War Resolution seems to be a bigger failure to offer a clear alternative to Bush.

[second edition]

122. Where have you been, 9-11 lead us into the Iraq war

And 9-11 set up Bush as the War President who was going to keep us all safe and secure. Only Republicans are hawkish enough to react with force and react quickly, the Dems will try to make nice with the enemy.Do you recall any of this stuff going on? How about the terror alerts and the color codes system being raised every time Bush would begin to slide back in the polls?
Oh sure, we should have put up a loud mouthed, boorish candidate that would state assumptions as facts, call the administration liars and demand the war come to an immediate end.Yeah, the public would have been real receptive to that candidate.
Kerry was a good candidate. And it is my opinion that he shown above all the others in the primaries.

[confludemocrat]

108. Here's an update on the continuing self-destruction of John Kerry:

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Kerry_blames_election_loss_on_Sept._1201.html

[raysr]

110. Well, maybe

that and the fact he LAID down on us!

[second edition]

124. I must be missing something here, I don't seem to see why this

is all so relevent. Most resonanably intelligent people realize that 9-11 played a major part in his loss. For a story not to be put out is not unusal. It wasn't considered new worthy yesterday, with all the other more important new stories. Hey, heres something to piss you off- don't underestimate Kerry or count him out. Self-destruct- yeah sure-ha, ha.

[confludemocrat]

135. OK he's not helping himself. Well, that's not all. From Daily Kos:

The basis of my comment:

Kerry bogarts the limelight
by kos
Wed Nov 30, 2005 at 06:32:47 PM PDT

There's a little kerfuffle inside the Democratic Senate caucus over John Kerry's insistance in being part of the official party response to Bush's hilarious "plan" in Iraq. Reid originally had designated Sen. Jack Reed to provide the official response. Reed did the "prebuttal" yesterday and had a press conference set up for today.
However, John Kerry stomped over Reed by deciding he was going to hold a press conference this morning as well in a naked bid to steal the limelight. Eventually, Reid was forced to combine the two press conferences to try and maintain a unified Senate Democrat response, but Kerry's antics have generated some ill will.
Much ado about nothing? Perhaps. But several DC Democrats I've spoken to today were not happy with Kerry's antics. And given 1) Kerry's continued inability to clearly articulate a coherent position on the war (as Feldman notes), and 2) the fact that Kerry voted for it (while Reed did not), it's not hard to see why.
***********
Or is neither Kos nor Raw Story story credible? One often gets that kind of argument about any number of sources of unfavorable news stories or blog comments about Kerry

More from Daily Kos (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/30/115511/64):

Kerry made a series of statements where he attempted to parse the difference between his position and President Bush's statements. According to John Kerry, the problem with the President's "National Strategy for Victory in Iraq" was that it made the claim that the U.S. military belonged to the President's policy and not to the American people (hang on, here, it's hard to explain Kerry's arguments). He then went on to explain that Democrats are not calling for a time table for leaving Iraq, but were instead calling for a time table for success in Iraq which would allow for the U.S. military to leave (See the difference? Yeah...me neither).

Kerry was confusing, he was overly patrician. He was unclear. After listening to him speak for five minutes, it was not clear what his ideas were.

Feingold was the exact opposite.
***************
Kerry wants "success" in Iraq. ergo, he favors the war, saying such can get your post deleted, I have found.
***************
Another comment that Kerry lovers will cry to the mods about is that Kerry did not support Murtha other than his character (not hard to do):

http://americablog.blogspot.com/2005/11/john-kerry-undercuts-murtha.html:

"You gotta love John Kerry. Just when you think he's totally worthless, he comes back on more time to remind us why he lost.

John Murtha makes an amazing personal sacrifice, putting his reputation on the line, by going public against this growing fiasco of a war. So what does John Kerry do within hours of Murtha's speech? He says Murtha is wrong about needing to set a timetable for withdrawal. Kerry also hinted he might be running for election AGAIN in 2008. Gee, do you think that's why Kerry still can't make up his mind about this war?

Message to Kerry: You lost against a moron. Go away. I know some of you still like Kerry, but I really think he (and you) underestimate the amount of anti-Kerry-ism that exists on the Democratic side of the aisle. He needs to go away."
*************
More on his take on Murtha's ideas about withdrawal (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/17/cnna.kerry/):

BLITZER: John Murtha, who's very involved in the Armed Services Committee, ... says there should be an immediate withdrawal over the next six months of all U.S. troops from Iraq. Good idea?

KERRY: I respectfully disagree with John Murtha. And I laid out a plan which is, I think, a good plan, a solid plan -- that builds consistently on everything I said throughout the campaign last year -- of what you need to do to be successful. And I believe my plan supports the troops in the right way.

Saying a week ago here at DU that Kerry didn't support Murtha except for his character got my post deleted. Go figure. The Kerryites go nuts when you present them w/facts and Kerry's own words.

[methinks2]

115. good grief, maybe someone should

tell him that's he's boring. People are shallow and they won't vote for someone that boring. Gore had the same problem. Boring!!!! Let's get a candidate with a little pizazz. In this very large country I'm sure we could find someone. I wonder if Bill Clinton could run again? Or is the old sex scandal something that just won't go away?

[second edition]

123. Sometimes there is only one way to say something and only

one five words that fits, your full of sh*t.

[second edition]

126. THIS IS THE MOST IRRELEVANT NON NEWS, I HAVE SEEN

concerning Kerry. So what- comes to mind. Big deal is another. How about, I think I heard this before. And this, it makes perfect sense and seems a reasonable excuse to me.

[Norquist Nemesis]

128. Well...Kerry's spot on! The title is misleading

He didn't say "9/11 attacks", he said "9/11". What did America hear day in and day out of the campaign: "9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11"

A couple of time they heard "September the 11th", but in every way they pushed "9/11" INCLUDING the Iraq war. When Bush talks about "The War on Terror" the 9/11 boogey-man is smiling just behind his right ear.

[oregonindy]

129. great senator. stay there.

[second edition]

130. True, but he would be a greater President! n/t

[PATRICK]

131. It does sum it up and does not preclude

the whole picture including media, dirty campaigning and fraud. But it was bitterly ironic in the comment that this was not the time or place for it(his White House, his term of office), but apparently neither was 2004 the time or America the Ukraine.

[NVMojo]

136. Sorry, I agree with Kerry. But also there were the Swiftboatfeckers

[symbolman]

137. Gee, another BIG thank you to Raw Story

for spreading dissention among the democrats and trashing another great man who fought like hell to be president against a media determined and who had been bought and sold years ago..

You might as well be Drudge for all the damage you do for the sake of trying to get hits and make a name for yourself.

Might as well be working for the right wing - I am particularly sick of these IMPORTANT people, some of whom I've lost all respect for who do NOTHING but TRASH the Democrats 24/7 and RIGHT HERE where we are supposed to be LEADING the way to HELP the Democratic Party.

THis is sickening, specious, disrespectful, clueless trashing of Democrats to raise money, get hits, get your name out there and I find it extremely repugnant..

And of course people armed with 25 words run off and start screaming inane opinions that just came into their heads in the hopes that someone will HELP them trash ANY DEMOCRAT..

I WON'T DO THAT and I wish others wouldn't do that HERE. Take that shit to YOUR BLOG, EMAIL it to someone, why not start a RAW STORY UNDERGROUND Public arena so that people can read this kind of insipid and irresponsible dreck and vent THERE at the RS BOARD?

I'd like to see this place WORKING TO FORWARD THIS PARTY, not tear it down with inane bullshit like this...

Cut the shit, it's the DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND based on the fact that BUSH STOLE THE FIRST ELECTION and what we can do to SUPPORT THE FIGHT AGAINST THEM..

Getting real sick of these LBN stories that should be in the freaking LOUNGE.

YOu are DAMAGING people and concepts and folks that could be helping and I for one will NOT Shut up about it, until I see some responsibility and action that involves more that "Someone said something gooney that Raw Story LEARNED.."

WHo the hell can't SAY THINGS LIKE THAT?

Give me Talking Points Memo saying HE has learned something, HE HAS REAL CONNECTIONS, but from what I've seen RS to me is just talking out of their asses half the time.

Excuse the rant, but we want to ASSIST THOSE that want to take BACK OUR COUNTRY and I have MET Kerry and his wife personally, to the point where their guard "Marvelous Marvin" will lead Theresa THROUGH a crowd right to ME with a big smile on her face and knowing them PERSONALLY I can say this is BULLSHIT.

[second edition]

139. Bravo, thank you for making so much sense. n/t

[MrBenchley]

143. Amen to that!

[politicasista]

147. Amen brother

:applause:

[jenndar]

155. Amen

To hijack a moment that should have been devoted to celebrating the memory of Rosa Parks was shameful.

[whometense]

160. Fantastic rant.

All I have to add is a big AMEN.

[kerrygoddess]

188. Here! Here!

The more we bash our own with inane stories like this the more we are helping the repubs.

Thanks for saying this!

[_dynamicdems]

190. Thank you!

It breaks my heart to see people ripping our party apart over manufactured issues while the GOP is tearing our country apart. There is no way I can express how painful it is to witness the backstabbing of a good and honorable leader, such as Senator Kerry by the people who are supposed to be on our side. Democratic unity: it it an oxymoron? Sometimes I look around and wonder why the Senator continues to fight for us.

Thank you so much for your words of unity and support and for your loyalty to a noble leader and statesman. We need more Democrats such as you.

:patriot: :patriot: :dem: :dem: :dem: :dem: :patriot: :patriot:


Idealism without honor is not.

[paulk]

192. great post

:toast:

[confludemocrat]

197. Oh yeah, Raw Story is now a Repub traitor too. Yer "goin postal" verbally!

I have heard more shotgun-blast attacks on other liberals from people like you than anywhere else.

That you idolize Kerry is evident. Where were you to clean out his advisors who let him get swift-boated, since you are so close to the inner circle? That you save your wrath for fellow progressives is much more "sickening, specious, disrespectful, clueless" .

[symbolman]

204. Excuse me?

What is this "people like you " shit? "people like you"? Explain that one please.

Shot gun blast attacks? Nice and vague, examples please?

Other Liberals? I really don't consider RS to be Liberals, I consider them to be muck raking "liberal posers" Drudge style wannabees that not only lack credibility, but will do anything, and say anything to USE Progressives or speculation to line their purses.. and I'm seeing more and more RawBots Here - we used to have BevBots and the board started going NUTS over it.. unstable, and even a threat to the administration..

Do they have a product to sell? I do, and it's filled with a year's worth of FACTS, no speculation doled out a few words at a time with the intended effect of getting people to come to our site and hit the reload button like monkeys hitting the food lever in their cages over and over..

Have they created something for the Progressives to use asking nothing in return, WE HAVE, many times over, for YEARS - over 50 Flash Political ADS, which Takebackthemedia.com basically INVENTED and HONED right here on the DU, as far back as 2000..

I don't Idolize Kerry, either, I'm pissed off at him as well for a variety of reasons, but I'm not going to assist in Character Assassination for MONEY, LINKS, HITS and MINE suckers at the DU who will go off the deep end if someone even SUGGESTS that a Democrat has said something a LOT of people MIGHT disagree with.. something as simple as TWO WORDS.. or a number, then a slash, then two whole numbers.. (9/11) -- OOOOOOoooh, that is SO heavy, so filled with information to use to DEFAME such an HONORABLE MAN, a VETERAN of which I AM ONE AS WELL.. so please do not throw SwiftBoating in MY FACE EITHER..

THAT does NOT move the Party FORWARD. I've had the pleasure of speaking with them and other Govt figures at great length, but I don't SELL THEM OUT for hits, any info I get from them I SHARE, NOT FOR HITS..

SO what if I know Kerry, DID I RUN HIS CAMPAIGN? Nope.. I DID offer his a FREE ad, my ARMY OF ONE which was one of the 14 finalists in the MoveOn contest out of 1600 entries in the "Bush in 30 Seconds" Contest, and frankly if he'd USED my ad he might have suffered from LESS Swiftboating.. LESS..

I REFUSE to let so called Progressives ATTACK DEMOCRATS, PERIOD. Especially if I know they are getting TONS OF MONEY TO DO IT. THAT is not WRATH, that is RESPONSIBILITY to the PARTY and it's MEMBERS to not allow them to be pulled into phoney 'stories' that get spread as "FACT" by some of the same people you seem to worship. I won't let that happen and neither will others on this board and we've seen it before...

When someone or some site is NOT moving the party forward, But MOVING THEMSELVES FORWARD, and right to the Bank, then *I* have a problem with that, and I'm not alone.

Go to my site and look around, ask a few people HERE what *I* have done and then back off a notch, you may find that our site has done a LOT for this party, more than YOU might be able to imagine..

You might want to do a little investigative reporting before you talk that way to someone who's spent FOUR YEARS after mortgaging their home to FIGHT BUSH FOR FREE, only askin for donations to do just that.

SO why wouldn't a RAW STORY BOARD be a GOOD thing? THey can trash Democrats all day long there, but it ain't happening here. Not on my watch, friend..

As a matter of fact I'm getting a little sick of these Trojan Horse GREENIES running around this place PRETENDING to be Democrats while TRASHING MY PARTY, I'm seeing too much of it and enough is enough..

THis isn't called the GREEN PARTY UNDERGROUND, so if you're not a DEM then BUG OUT, or Join, or at least acknowledge that you want to be convinced..

Put me on your ignore list please and I'll do the same for you.

[SoCalDem]

140. Ridiculous

It's way past time for our candidates to use what little time they get on the air, to lambaste this corrupt administration and chastise the press for the sloppy sycophantic job they have done, and are still doing.

The inane "questions" that are asked need to just be ignored, and the candidate should just say what he/she has to say.,..

People like Wolfie just want to "play this tape" and "get your reaction to this".. A candidate can NEVER get his/her point across in the limited amount of time..

For Kerry to trot out 9-11 as an excuse, is ridiculous..

He was timid when it counted and bold when it no longer mattered

[symbolman]

146. My Friend

we've ALL thought of things we SHOULD have said seconds after walking away from a lot of situations, especially emotional ones, "Damn I should have told them to SHOVE IT - or I should has said,'well, he's screwing YOUR wife too' :) (okay, not so funny)..

BUt there it is, politicians are human too, and make simple mistakes, to me it's Irresponsible to bother with this inane bullshit, especially when scum like Wolfie does it, or O'Reilly, etc..

I've been on those shows and believe me there are a lot of things I'd rather had said at a critical moment which I had plenty of later, a wealth of comebacks..

I even got trained by someone that trains Senators/congressmen before I went on the O'Reilly show, and tho I held my own with him he still cold cocked me with the "What about the Liberal Radio PBS?" which I gave some bullshit answer too, not a great one..

Later, I would have said, "Bill, are you saying that 20 hours of 'smooth jazz', some people reading books to you, and shows like 'Let's talk Knitting' are some kind of Liberal Message of great significance? Hell, Cokie Roberts LIVES in Bush's Pocket.."

I mean Kerry could have said, "Lamp post" and RAW STORY would have LEARNED that "Lamp Post" means without a DOUBT a CIA Movement in the 50's to keep black men in a warehouse and feed them LSD all day, etc, etc..

TWO WORDS.. two stupid words with no context really and folks start lighting up their torches and grabbing their pitchforks to lynch Kerry..

WHy don't THESE PEOPLE RUN FOR OFFICE, take a look at the GRILLING you can get, the words you BETTER not utter, not wearing a TIE one day and being called a HIPPIE or something..

THe Media attack machine is an INCREDIBLE FORCE, and you ain't gonna beat it by imitating it on a smaller even less credible scale..

and that's what I see Raw Story doing, the imagined damage to Kerry with what may be a non sensical statement is NOT a STORY and DEMS look STUPID dogpiling on their own over potentially NOTHING..

We're doing the RIght wing's job for them if we follow this style.. and it's just bullshit, we're here for one reason to SUPPORT the DEMS, not GOSSIP..

I was dissapointed that Kerry did not fight more, or GORE for that reason, but sometimes when you're ass if kicked you don't say, "Please sir may I have another.."

You have to try a different tack.. this Media machine can literally kill ANYONE dead, its that powerful, but we need to TURN IT AGAINST ITSELF in a ROvian manner, THAT is the answer.. but with TRUTH or we have NOTHING..

[SoCalDem]

148. I agree with you.. I wish they would all just REFUSE to go on

but of course we know that Joementum would then become the "official spokesman for the 'democrat' party"....

I have long advoctaed a boycott of all corporate media, so they could be seen as they really are..republican shills for the right wing agenda.. People qwould soon tire of watching them and they
might be forced to change..Politicians ALL OF THEM crave "face-time" ,so I don;t see anything changing soon, but I can always hope..

The real agenda that should be hammered home is the horrific way we vote and count said votes..:( But I guess no one in the limelight is interested.. To them it doesn;t matter who wins/loses..Their life stays the same regardless.. It's just the rets of us who have to suffer.

I don;t read RS or Drudge or any of the other "link gatherers".. We have plenty of links here to keep me busy :hi:

[symbolman]

150. I'm with you 100%

ALL Democrats should boycott these RIght WIng shows.. let these assholes schmooze each other all day, it will be SO BORING that people will switch to the grass growing channel :)

I've see Joe in action, we covered him during the Primaries at a coffee shop.. I stood on a chair with a camera and got Joe to actually say with great vigor, "We need to TAKE BACK THE MEDIA!"

Is that a SCOOP? Nope, fun, but not a SCOOP.. visual gossip, self serving, so much so that I didn't even run it.. got footage of Congressman Conyers hugging me and saying, "Oh, my brother..thanks!" which I won't use as it's self aggrandizing and takes away from the point of what HE IS DOING..

I've got footage of Cynthia McKinney saying, "Well, DUH.." about electronic voting - someone could use that clip and say, "Well, she's obviously got ONE ANSWER for a question about electronic voting, how astute she is.." and then DEM Bashers could have a field day..

That's irresponsible video journalism, SENSATIONALISM, and if you use it to GET MONEY then it's even MORE irresponsible, and I see it being used BY supposed DEMS to trash DEMS who are working HARD to get what we ALL WANT..

But I DO like your idea, leave the Media house of cards to masturbate each other in public verbally and watch them fall apart..

Let's NOT help them, shall we?

Love that snowman! :)

[lateo]

144. Clueless Kerry.

What a maroon this guy is turning out to be.

[second edition]

163. You make no sense. n/t

[lateo]

175. It is a bugs bunny reference...

"What a maroon"
"What a nim-cow-poop"

Kerry is looking everywhere but fraud as excuse for why he lost.

[politicasista]

152. This SHOULD have been about Rosa Parks

Very insulting to her memory. nuff said.

[whometense]

161. That is EXACTLY right.

And that is what Kerry was saying. Don't ask me about this today, bercause this day is about Rosa Parks. Period.

[confludemocrat]

194. Read the story he didn't have to answer the question or hold a press conf.

BUT HE DID, and used it to make that comment and it wasn't a good thing to do. It was about Rosa Parks, in agreeing with politicasista.

[wisteria]

199. It wasn't exactly a press confrerence and he didn't call for it. They

were White House reporters. They are always there looking for a story.

[wisteria]

198. And it was, he and Jackson said very kind things about her.

The media was pressing him for answers on Iraq.Sometimes you have to play along with the media even if you don't want to.He needs their help to get good things done. He did tell them that it wasn't the time or place to get into the election issues.

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

154. what I'd like to know is...

who the hell is STILL asking him questions about the election? And at Rosa Parks' memorial, no less? There couldn't possibly be a more inappropriate time/place.

[zann725]

156. YES IT IS! That famous quote? "If not NOW...when?"

Say it John. If not NOW...when?

Say it NOW. Speak Truth to Power, as you've told us many times yourself.

[TheDonkey]

162. Obviously. Republicans have been whoring 9/11 since 9/12/01

Many idiots out here in this country voted for Bush cause he was "strong on terra" even if that's not true.

[VegasWolf]

167. Murtha/Edwards 08! nt

[ray of light]

174. Vagas..Murtha is not running. HE's OLD and he doesn't want the job!

AND...the funny thing is...EVERY democrat is defending Murtha from the swiftboating, including Kerry, but it's awfully ironic that these same democrats watched the swiftboating of Kerry, McCain, and Max Cleland, Cindy Sheehen, etc...and did nothing at all--not even Murtha!

I say they're all hypocrites and it's time we vote for someone new.

Someone beyond swiftboating because she's never been in the military.

Someone who doesn't have a voting record to smear.

Someone who is cute and knows the rule--"Both lefties and righties like you to be seen and not heard..."

Yes, indeed...next election, I'm writing in:

HILLARY

DUFF

Who wouldn't vote for a Barbie look-a-like?

[VegasWolf]

177. I agree with "they are all hypocrites" part. Especially all DLC'ers. Lets

start with a new batch.

[wisteria]

200. LOL n/t

[DaveColorado]

186. Foot in Mouth Disease

[fujiyama]

187. I think he's partly right

but I think another thing that he would rather not admit is that his inability to respond to the SBLiars hurt him. That wasn't completely his fault (advisors gave bad advice), but it showed poor judgement in taking that bad advice.

Then there was a somewhat muddled and convoluted reasoning for his war vote and policy. Kerry is smart, but he seems incapable of explaining things in a concise manner.

Of course, then there was OH where it is still impossible to say exactly what happened...so yeah, fraud likely had a part in his loss as well.

[jackieMN]

202. Reply Video

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php. I think he has a point. Alot of people were probably afraid to switch Commanders-in-chiefs at the time. Comments?

[lies and propaganda]

203. is there such athing as voter remorse?

because i definitely think im showing symptoms

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maddezmom]

207. locking

subject has ceased to be productive