Trouble with voting Machines in Virginia

[M_Demo_M]

Kos and Politicalwire are both reporting about electronic voting
machine problems in Virginia.

The report linked below reports:

News 7 has received calls from several voters in at least four different precincts who say their votes for Tim Kaine were not recorded or took several attempts to go through.

They contend the electronic touch screens repeatedly indicated they were voting for Republican candidate Jerry Kilgore instead of registering their intended vote for his Democratic opponent Tim Kaine.


http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=4089899

[jsamuel]

1. So it begins... again...

DON'T LET THIS STOP YOU FROM VOTING!!!

[RazzleDazzle]

31. Think the DNC will "get it" this time?

Or if not, I wonder how many tries it will take?

one problem I keep seeing and I'm getting freakin' tired of -- I saw someone else post about this earlier today -- the beleif in benevolence. The notion that the people in the White House or elsewhere (e.g., Pentagon) actually want to do right by the country and its people, wouldn't lie -- or rarely, etc. Rubbish. Dangerous, pie-eyed, delusional garbage. They need to wake the hell up.

[spotbird]

47. No, they won't get it

If they haven't yet they never will.

[Imagevision]

60. Well, we get "it" -- 2006 elections will register problems across the

board -- it seems "historical" at this point that americans can't have computer-gadget "problems" -- we must bring back paper trailed devices or perhaps lets break from the norm and have a 2008 election with paper ballots.

Since Bus entered the race, computer voting has proved in too many elections that they cannot be relied upon.

To the New Governors in Virginia and New Jersey....welcome, this is just the beginning to finish the job in 06 elections so this President Bush can be impeached after it's proven he knew the intelligence to go too war was false and in some cases fabricated.

[anotherdrew]

49. someone with an organization needs to get these voters on record

They should be signing sworn affidavits in court and a law suit needs to go against the counties running these machines.

[Midlodemocrat]

2. My precinct uses optical scan, but I don't know that much about it.

Is it better? Is it more reliable.

[jsamuel]

4. depends if they put stickers on them or not after you vote

lawsuit pending in Ohio over that

[soothsayer]

7. gawd, i thought they meant retinal scan! so your reply--lol!

[John Q. Citizen]

20. Better, but not good enough. The reason they are better is if there

is a manual recount there are the cards the voters marked to recount, as opposed to touch screens which have nothing to recount.

So the initial totals may be screwed with on the scanner tabulation, but there is a paper trail with real paper ballots.

[FighttheFuture]

36. Those can also be hacked, much of florida was optical scan...

the other big problem is the servers that roll the votes form the preceint up. Those can also be hacked and if precinct counts aren't released independently of the total rollups you will never know.

So many ways to steal it, the electronic voting and central tabulaters just make it so much easier.

The only way, ban private companies from stealing the vote and go back to paper ballots; which can be recounted at any time!! Count them at the local precinct level with appropriate Election judges, and release the results before/while the central tabulation is done.

Along with this, increase, by federal law, the number of precients so the counting is not overwhelming and people do not have to go all over to vote.

Finally, Exit poll, exit poll, exit poll!!

[howmad1]

46. What I don't understand.......

.....is why the Democrats don't have "hacking talent". I understand that the voting machine companies are run by rethuglicans, but given all the computer expertise that can hack banks, credit card companies, government agencies, etc., why can't the dems fight back and "unhack" these voting machines?

Oh, I get it, it's just not the right thing for dems to do. :sarcasm:

[anotherdrew]

50. it's not that simple

for one thing you can be damn sure that someone would get caught and the dems would get ALL the blame. The rethugs aren't 'hacking' the systems live, they control the code from the beginning. It's not necessarily even a purely computer problem, all the mechanical counting systems are wrong. Everything needs to be paper and hand counted by volunteers. Systems can easily be put in place to prevent anyone from messing with the totals. That degree of assuredness is not achievable by any means other than roomfuls of people, republicans, democrats, independents, whatever, being watched like hawks, and every stack of votes being counted twice.

[marions ghost]

42. optical scan with paper ballots

is the best system out there at this point which uses a machine count. It has the great advantage that many voters can mark their ballots simultaneously and then feed them into only one reader, reducing lines and making the process very simple. Opti-scan machines have an excellent track record for accuracy and few glitches.

BUT the ballots still need to be "precinct counted" and every precinct needs to conduct random hand counts as a safeguard (which currently doesn't necessarily happen). Even though individual precincts may be highly accurate with this method, when results are sent to a central state tabulator with proprietary software and no oversight, then numbers can still be adjusted there.

[FighttheFuture]

69. I Disagree! Optical Scans can be hacked... much of Florida is optical!!

Every time you put a process between the intent of the voter and what is registered, there is a danger.

It is that simple.

Voter Intent ---> ?? Processes ?? --> Official Tally

What are all the processes (off the top of my head, not a complete list)?

The medium
human readable, verifiable paper
punch cards (not as readable, and chads, dimples. etc.)
Lever machines (old stuff, hacked a lot in Chicago)
touch screens - WORST!!

Counting
Human count, human monitored -- only really possible with paper. Punch cards are workable, but machines are required.
Machine counting- punch card readers, optical scan.
Electronic w/CPU's -- touch screen. Very unreliable!

Rollup/Tally
Call it in, mail it in, fax it in, whatever, computers will be utilized. This is a very weak area and once it gets to the next level of tabulation, the same BS can start again regardless of what the precinct counted.

That is why the Precinct should issue its counts independently, PUBLICLY, as "Certified" by the election judges and monitors in each precinct while it is rolled up for country and state certification.

As far as human counting, one or two stangers not from that area should also be sent in to monitor, to prevent any chummy collusion. We also need more preceints to help allow people ot vote and to reduce the burden of counting. Spead the work of democracy around!!

Finally, EXIT POLLS, Same day Registration, Out of Precinct Voting are all required. They can have a central DB of if you already voted. That is what is needed electronically, not our actual voting!!



REMEMBER, there is that core 20% of deluded fools and assholes that support these criminals. I am starting to suspect many are working in the election process at the local level!

[sabra]

3. deja vu :-(

[FSogol]

5. Don't let these reports discourage you from voting.

Go Vote.

[M_Demo_M]

6. Agreed. Get out an Vote!

Just double and triple check that your vote is getting recorded correctly!!!

[leveymg]

8. I voted in the VA 9th Dist. - touch screen - no apparent problem

with the machine. It appeared to do what I asked it.

But, I'll never know what actually went on inside the black box, unfortunately. I wouldn't bank or shop this way, and frankly, this is more important to me.:bounce:

[daleo]

9. Here come the glitches

Enough is enough.

[tom_paine]

35. Yeah...glitches.

If it was "glitches", roughly 50% of the errors would go in favor of each candidate.

However, with VERY seldom exceptions, the errors go something like 95-99% to the Busheviks, as the "error" did in this case.

Glitches, my ass!

[AzDar]

10. Vote! Vote! Vote!..and then I swear to Jeebus, we MUST dump

every single one of these machines into (figuratively, of course)
Boston Harbor! PAPER BALLOTS ONLY!HAND COUNTS ONLY!

[urizenxvii]

14. hey

keep yer voting machines out of our harbor! I really don't think they'd make a good man-made reef.

[swimboy]

23. OK, we'll grow oysters on them in the Chesapeake Bay!

[apnu]

11. And the big bullshit statement in the article is....

State election officials have been told of the problem. They believe if there is a problem, it could have been caused by the way the machines were stored.

Try pulling the other leg you bastards!

[KamaAina]

12. It probably was caused by the way the machines were stored

someplace where repuke operatives had access to them so they could hack them. :grr:

[apnu]

21. yeah probably

:nuke:

[makeanoise]

13. I WILL GO OFF!

That's my home state and I'm damn sick of these pricks stealing what is not theirs...

if they pull this crap off I will rage!

anyone seen this?
http://nightweed.com/usavotefacts.html

[maryallen]

15. What the hell did we expect?

That the machines would magicallly fix themselves?
That fallible human beings would resist the urge to tamper?
That rogues and snakes would desist from playing tricks with the polling locations or voter rolls?
That scalawags would place only reputable calls to the voters?

Our voting system is broken and nothing will change until it is fixed.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

16. Could this be a GOOD thing?

Nobody listened last year, now shrub's popularity is WAY low, and mistrust of Repubs is too... I hope we hear many more reports of voting "irregularities". Maybe public outcry will get louder now?!

[Meldread]

17. Just got back from voting.

I just got back from voting, this was my first time using a touch screen voting machine. I have to say, it's much better than the thing we were using before - it was a piece of junk and was somewhat confusing.

I voted Dem straight down the line, with the exception of Delegate there was no Dem running just a Republican. I did a write in for that one. :P

I got my sticker, woohoo!

Oh, errr... there was a lady standing behind the machine and paper coming out. Is that normal and what's her job there? (Sorry, like I said... first time I've ever used those types of machines.)

[ClintonTyree]

55. You THINK you voted straight Dem right down the line!

You have no way of actually knowing, do you? :shrug:

The old machines probably weren't as nice but I'll bet they counted votes a lot better.

Never trust that your vote counted unless you have a piece of paper in your hand that says it did.

[Divernan]

18. Hope Kaine has the balls to refuse to concede until full investigation

of irregularities takes place. I couldn't believe when my candidate, for whom I'd worked all day at the polls, John Kerry, conceded Ohio.

[greyl]

19. CONCEDE WHAT?

It ain't over.

[Divernan]

27. Of course I meant, should he lose.

I wanted to get the gist of my comment into the headline. And I remain pissed that my candidate Kerry conceded the Ohio vote without even allowing a couple of days to gather facts on problems with voting there.

[greyl]

29. I hoped so.

I wanted to get my point into the headline, too. :)

[Bluzmann57]

22. Um, the results aren't in yet

How can he concede when we don't even know any results yet? Get a grip and don't be so gloom and doom. If Kilgore wins by a nose, then Kaine should indeed demand a recount as well as an investigation, but until then, relax.

[Divernan]

28. Perhaps you are unaware of how close the candidates were polling

as of yesterday. With only 1 percent difference, and the large number of problems being reported just here on DU with VA machines whose errors always favored the Republican candidate, it would be no surprise if the machines were rigged to provide much more that a win by "a nose". And I'm raising the point now because the Dems have conceded within 24 hours in races which subsequently were shown to have substantive, material problems with electronic voting machines. Hopefully, by now, the Dems would have a policy of waiting longer before conceding, but I haven't heard that that is the case.

[wakeme2008]

24. WHERE ARE THE KILGORE VOTERS COMPLAINNG ABOUT

the machines switching their vote!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I know of two people in my office that voted for Kaine, one has not voted since 71 and the other normally does a straight Repug vote and both were pissed at Kilgore and voted for Kaine.


If Roanoke goes for Kilgore..... there is only one answer.....

[dennisnyc]

40. this is the central question! n/t

[Hissyspit]

25. Well, the bright side, I guess: The more obvious they get, the sooner

the lid will be blown off this corruption. I hope.

[wakeme2008]

33. that is the bright side.

Once the cat is out of the bag... there are too many questionable "wins" out there.

[godai]

26. Seemed OK for me in Prince William Co.

Maybe it was the ABC (anyone but cheney?) Edge voting machine I used.
God only knows if my vote was actually counted.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

30. Sounds like Diebold...

...likes Kilgore in this one.

[Griffy]

32. I voted in VA too.. on touch screen.. and spoke to my state rep..

I told him I was about to go to the polls, and I know its paperless... He says something about a study as to how to make the voting system better.. I told him point blank.. "if you need a study to tell you this system is flawed, I cant vote for you" I said, do you think paperless sytems can ever be secure and verifiable. He said not really (typical.. cant just say "no"). In the end he "promised" to work for a verifiable voting system. I have his cell phone now (his office gave it to me because they couldnt speak with centainty as to his support for paper.) I intent to hound this guy for the next year, to get my district paper! I dont care about anything else really, because we need a real voting system for '06!!

To all DUers .. you will find you are better informed than most of these guys.. find a local state rep, and get him to work for you! Voting is a local thing, granted some states have mandated voting machines... but this issue must be fought at the local levels! I intend to find a way to be an observer of some sort next election. Perhaps we should have our own exit polls... and compile results here.

GO VOTE!!

BE the MEDIA.. be bold.. speak up at the polls! Those are the polictally active people, let them know you are not going to sit down and shut-up!!

[marions ghost]

45. thank you Griffy

:applause:

[SquireJons]

65. I too voted in Virginia

And I had no problems at all. My vote for Kaine seemed to work fine with the touch screen machine. Now what happens in the database is anyones guess. Since the state has a Democrate as govenor, I'm not too worried about manipulation. It's the states where the pugs are in charge that you can expect fraud, like Florida.

[Griffy]

67. yes..but the system is flawed.. we cant wait till someone hacks

.. we need to object on princle that a verifiable voting system is a must, as important as fire and police stations!! We can show the reports from Conyers to the GAO to verify the UNverifiable nature of this type of voting... so dont be lulled just because for now we have more honest people using the system today.. tomorrow we could have crooks.. like if kilgore hard won.. who knows what would have happened!

[dkofos]

34. I was watching cnn & msnbc

and they kept on saying the NJ and Virginia races were close, a dead heat, too close to call.
Sounded like they were prepping the masses for an upset.

Looks to me like another stolen election.

Remember, It's not who votes that counts, but who counts the votes.

BASTARDS

[paparush]

37. Damn Virginia!!!! Take to the Streets...tear down the goddamn courthouse..

set fire to something...JESUS CHRIST!!! Turn some cars over...we cannot fucking take it any more!!

[dennisnyc]

38. Randi's last caller confirmed problems with VA voting machines...

On The Randi Rhodes Show today, her last caller confirmed that they are indeed having problems: the "i press Kaine and it comes up Kilgore" variety.....

We've got to stop this crap!

[MadisonProgressive]

39. slimey traitorous bastards

[madmark]

41. more of the same, these machines have to give the user a receipt

like an atm or they should be barred from being used.

[Gin]

43. I voted in Kempsville on Punch cards....was told this this the last

election using that type of voting machine...Deibold touch screens were on display to show us voters what to expect. I asked the man showing me the machine if there was a paper trail..he said yes...its stored on a disk and the paper goes into a sealed section to the right of the machine. It's not visible..the storage is encased in metal....so I told him I dont trust Deibold..and I wanted to see my vote on paper...............he looked at me like I was stupid.

Oh well.....Hope Kaine wins.

[virgdem]

44. Very interesting...

I just voted in Virginia Beach around 5pm. When I got inside the front door of the church where I vote, immediately to the right was a woman demonstrating the touch screen voting machine. I looked closely and at the top right of the machine, was a name - DIEBOLD.
I looked at the woman and said, "oh, oh, were in trouble." To which she just gave me a blank stare. As I got to the table to have them check my voter identification info, I saw the credit type cards that were to be inserted into the touch screen machine, but they handed me the usual punch cards. They then asked me if I wanted to use the one Diebold machine, to which I adamantly said "NO". Well, it looks like next year, I will be voting by absentee ballot.

[MediumBrownDog]

56. Same thing happened to me where I vote in Va Beach...

I was offered the choice of the usual punch cards or "the new machine," and the registrar pointed to the one electronic machine where THERE WAS ACTUALLY A LINE OF PEOPLE WAITING TO VOTE while the 8 punch card kiosks were standing empty. I couldn't believe my eyes. I asked the woman, and she said "oh people are very excited about it. It's a novelty, and that's what we'll all use in the next election!" YIKES! I, too, will be voting absentee next election.

[virgdem]

61. Out of curiosity..

where do you vote?

And by the way, KAINE WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so take that Diebold.

[salin]

48. interesting.. when Kaine wins, there will suddenly

be more interest in the whole bbv issue.

[In Truth We Trust]

51. Paper Ballots NOW! Hand Counts NOW! IMPEACHMENT NOW!!!

[ClintonTyree]

52. I'm willing to bet 100% of the "glitches" favor Kilgore...........

it's really strange how all of those "glitches" always favor the Repiglicken candidate, isn't it? Gee, what are the odds? :shrug: Why, I'll bet they're astronomical! :grr:

[Up2Late]

53. Sounds EXACTLY like what happened to my mother here in Georgia...

...while trying to for for Kerry on the Diebold "Accuvote TS" touch screen machine. :banghead: :mad:

The thing that I was wondering is, does the machine record 3 or 4 votes for the Republican Candidate for each time it registers the wrong candidate, and then one vote for the Democrat they intended to vote for?

And before I get the, "No, the machine doesn't work that way, it only counts the vote when you confirm it and you press enter..."

I know that's how it's suppose to work, but it's also not suppose to malfunction like these reports are saying it is. And with out a voter confirmed paper log or back up, you can't prove that it didn't do as I described.

[Up2Late]

54. self delete Dupe

sorry, computer slow tonight.:blush:

[Dry Fly]

57. Is this a serious discussion?

Voter fraud? Is everybody here a conspiracy theorist?

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

59. Enjoy your stay.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[philb]

62. swtiching happened on E machines in Virginia in 2004 election

likely happening again; http://www.flcv.com/virginia.html

only hope is such a big majority that even switching doesn't make enough difference.
What did the polls say?

[madeline_con]

63. Should this be forwarded to the Dem Committee?

O.K. I'm on it...

[gauguin57]

66. Worked today at PA precinct with old-fashioned voting machines ...

... the kind where you pull the handle to close the curtain and push down the little metal levers that record your vote mechanically (not digitally). Love those machines. No hackers, no chads. A lovely old system (and pushing down that lever for your candidate is just so damned satisfying).

Unfortunately, no one fixes them anymore, so they're on their way out (in favor of computer voting).

[Wilms]

68. kick n/t

[FighttheFuture]

70. Anything can be hacked, machines are easier. Optical is hacked in FL...

Keep in mind that every time you put a process between the intent of the voter and what is registered, there is a danger.

It is that simple.

Voter Intent ---> ?? Processes ?? --> Official Tally

What are all the processes (off the top of my head, not a complete list)?

The medium
human readable, verifiable paper
punch cards (not as readable, and chads, dimples. etc.)
Lever machines (old stuff, hacked a lot in Chicago)
touch screens - WORST!!

Counting
Human count, human monitored -- only really possible with paper. Punch cards are workable, but machines are required.
Machine counting- punch card readers, optical scan.
Electronic w/CPU's -- touch screen. Very unreliable!

Rollup/Tally
Call it in, mail it in, fax it in, whatever, computers will be utilized. This is a very weak area and once it gets to the next level of tabulation, the same BS can start again regardless of what the precinct counted.

That is why the Precinct should issue its counts independently, PUBLICLY, as "Certified" by the election judges and monitors in each precinct while it is rolled up for country and state certification.

As far as human counting, one or two stangers not from that area should also be sent in to monitor, to prevent any chummy collusion. We also need more preceints to help allow people ot vote and to reduce the burden of counting. Spead the work of democracy around!!

Finally, EXIT POLLS, Same day Registration, Out of Precinct Voting are all required. They can have a central DB of if you already voted. That is what is needed electronically, not our actual voting!!



REMEMBER, there is that core 20% of deluded fools and assholes that support these criminals. I am starting to suspect many are working in the election process at the local level!

[4dsc]

71. Simply bring a hammer to vote

and when the first machine doesn't work, smash it!! Smash then until you get one that works!!

[DisgustedTX]

72. Oddly enough - KAINE STILL WON BIG

Low tide has officially arrived for the junta.