Reply #21: Wow, simply stunning, really, congratulations.

[MadHound]

Probably the most self contradicting, fantastical, post I've read around here in a long time, if ever. Let's start at the beginning.

First off, your contention that the MSM is somehow presenting the fact that the only way out is to pull out is based on zilch, zero, nada friend. First off, virtually nobody in the MSM is seriously pushing for a pull-out. Yes, they discuss it as an option, but the generally counter act it with two options for staying in Iraq. I don't know what MSM you pay attention to, but I'm a pretty well read, well informed guy, and the MSM that I intake is in no way, shape or form advocating for a pull out of any sort. After all, their ultimate corporate parents are making too much money from this war to allow it to fail:shrug: I think that you are over-reading too much into the information that you are taking in. Please, if you have any examples to back yourself up with, use them.

Your assumption that the Iraqi people would welcome an ongoing American presence as long as it were a benign, generous presence is based on what, precisely. Yours or Bush's wishful thinking? Because if you will go back and examine your history, both recent and ancient you will find that no matter how benign the rule, people dislike having their country occupied. Hell, part of what pissed off bin Laden is the fact that the US parked a bunch of troops in Saudi Arabia. And your picture of the perfect operation, involved in the community, not shooting civilians, etc. is going to last about as long as it takes for the first dozen IEDs to go off, and then the true face of US military might is going to come out, and the blood will flow.

I've talked with Iraqis who are over here. They want the US out of Iraq, come what may. You are correct in your description of pre-war Iraq, secular, non-threatening, etc. However the peace between the three major factions was kept only with a bloody sword wielded by Hussein, and the peace would have erupted into sectarian violence the moment he died. Your proposal of occupying Iraq in order to educate the next generation is a foolish one, for it would be an occupation that would have to last for decades, until the only people left alive in Iraq had no memory of such factions. Do you really want to bankrupt the US? For that sort of multi-decade occupation would do just that, bankrupt us and cast the US in chaos. We're already traveling down that path, notice how deep into debt the war has currently plunged us. Further occupation on the scale you're proposing would increase that debt by a few orders of magnitude, and ruin us financially. Not a bright idea.

And frankly, your description of how Americans would react to foreign soldiers on our soil is absolutely out there friend. From the days of the city states until now, no state, no matter how much chaos and disorder it is in, has willingly welcomed foreign troops onto its soil. Your example of Germany and Japan is specious at best, because you left out part of the story. Namely that those two countries had been beaten down to within an inch of their lives. Completely and totally defeated, prone, with no way of fighting back as the foreign troops entered their countries. And even still, something that you little hear in history, there was resistence to our occupation in both countries. Shots here, explosions there, sure, nothing major, but certainly not the complete, welcome with open arms that has been depicted.

So unless you are willing to further inflict a severe beat down on the Iraqi people, on the order of the total decimation that we inflicted on both Germany and Japan, you are going to have to relinquish your point that the Iraqi people will welcome our presence. And thus, that makes, as we have seen throughout history, a guerilla war unwinnable. All that a continued occupation will do is provoke further chaos, and up the body counts on both sides of the conflict. Are you willing to do that? Is that what you want? More death and destruction as the US tries to impose a regime that lacks the support of the people, and one that will be torn down as soon as we leave. Gee, you express concern for the loss of Iraqi lives, yet are wishing to pursue a policy that will result in even more Iraqi deaths. Contradictions in one's thinking are not good friend, not good at all

And your sly insinuation that I personally am a racist, and that those who want an immediate withdrawl are national supremacists are base lies, slanders that you are using when logic and reason fail you. Sorry, but with those two points, you have negated your entire proposition. For frankly, if you go through the threads, you will find that the overwhelming majority of people on this board express grave concerns about the ongoing damage that we're inflicting on the Iraqi people, which is why they want our troops to withdraw. And frankly pal, you don't even know me, therefore your pathetic attempt to read meanings and insight into my personality is probably more the result of your own projection rather than anything I've said.

All you are doing is dressing "stay the course" in pseudo progressive clothing, and frankly having to alter the entire meaning of "progressive" in order to fit your bill. Sorry pal, but what you are proposing is wrong. Even you admit it is a fantasy, and yet insisting that we try it anyway. Well, fuck that. It is time for the killing to stop, and the surest, shortest way for that to happen is for the US to pull it's forces out NOW. Anything else is simply a continuation of the death and madness, and an ongoing gendocide of the Iraqi people. So frankly, you have three choices right now, either lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way. Given your so called plan, and your insulting treatment of those who speak sense in opposition to your so called plan, I think option three is the best one for you to take. For I certainly don't want you leading us, and I don't trust you at my back. So please, just get the hell out of the way.