Reply #10: Wow

[hvn_nbr_2]

You said This is the best summary of Revelations I have ever seen. That surprises me because I've never found anyone who had any of these points of view of Revelation:
- that the two kinds of heaven really represent two very different kinds of religion
- that there are transitional images throughout the story showing transitions from the first to the second heaven
- that the change shown doesn't happen suddenly at some "end time" (Many people believe that generally but I never heard it stated as what Revelation says.)
- that the whole point of Revelation is about how religion evolves from primitive forms to advanced forms

If you've come to those conclusions on your own or are in a group that believes them, I'd love to compare notes. I thought I had my own unique view of Rev and haven't ever been able to get anyone to listen much.

You said their world really was coming to an end and I personally don't think you can separate the politics of the time of the Bible from the theology it purports.

Yes and yes. The book is very much a book for his time (and place too!) and yet it's a universal message too, as I'll get to in a moment.

Re: His time and place. It's actually a very Greek book, very much in the spirit of Greek religion and philosophy, filled with neat little riddles (most of which people don't even recognize as riddles) and invitations to imagine that you read what isn't there because you expect it to be there. Fundamentalists take his bait to see what they want to see all the time. (Fun aside: Google Croesus Lydia Delphi Persia to find the story of King Croessus hearing what he wanted to hear from a prophet.) John even stole the judgment day story from Plato (and adapted it), but no one notices that now. I once gave a talk, at a pagan convention, on Greek philosophy and religion in Revelation. I had a full room, and they stayed till the end. It seems more pagans are interested in a progressive view of Revelation than liberal Christians are. Liberal Christians in general just won't talk, read, hear, or think about Rev.

A very good example of his combining the politics of his time, his theology, and Greek riddle-making is the beast with seven heads and ten horns and the mortal wound that miraculously heals. This passage sounds like completely unintelligible drug-addled gibberish babbling, but you can look at it carefully and take it apart and discover that it's a masterfully crafted riddle that updates Daniel's prophecy to John's time, extends and universalizes it to be a message for all people of all times, and even transforms the nature of the prophecy at the same time. Having done that deciphering, you can read that passage that had been gibberish, and it reads smoothly and sensibly. But that's a much bigger discussion than I have time for now. If anyone expresses interest, I'll work on writing it up.

John also addresses first century church politics in a couple ways too, but that too is an issue for another time.